The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective
August 20, 2020 7:16 PM Subscribe
In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be. My parents taught me that good people get rewarded while evil gets punished. My teachers at school taught me that if you work hard, you will succeed, and if you never try, you will surely fail. When I picked up the book, I was studying math at Cambridge University and, as I looked back at the standardized tests and intense study that had defined my life until then, I could see no uncertainty.
But since reading Rubin’s book, I have come to see the world differently. Robert Rubin never intended to become the senior partner of Goldman Sachs: a few years into his career, he even handed in his resignation. Just as in Rubin’s career, I find that maybe randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor.
But since reading Rubin’s book, I have come to see the world differently. Robert Rubin never intended to become the senior partner of Goldman Sachs: a few years into his career, he even handed in his resignation. Just as in Rubin’s career, I find that maybe randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor.
I mean, there's nothing odd about the author's lesson, given that he's really comparing working-class value system inside modern PRC ("Communist") China versus values in 1% disciplines (Cambridge econ) and industries (Wall Street). They're not even opposites. It's pretty clear the essay is directed at Western upperclass interests and audience anyways, the piece has to be deconstructed as such.
posted by polymodus at 8:50 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 8:50 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
This was a good read that went in all sorts of directions. Thank you.
The randomness of success is certainly something that our social systems have difficulty coping with. People who have attained success often look back on their journey and conclude it was a result of their decisions (including the decision to 'work hard'), when in reality it was often the lottery of their birth onwards, including the results of lots of other people's decisions.
I work in a large hierarchical organisation where promotions are keenly sought and become more competitive as the pyramid narrows the further up you go. Because of its size, promotions typically occur in a 'diagonal' way - people almost never move directly up into the role immediately above them, because there are so many moving parts.
So I enjoy routinely telling my colleagues that success comes from having your boss get sick for a long period of time. This means you get to do their job for a fair while - its uncertain when they'll return so they don't get replaced. Then when its time to compete for a promotion, you're able to describe your extensive experience at that level, up against people who can only talk about how they are outstanding at the level below.
I like to ask this of senior people in our organisation when they offer to provide career advice - how many times in your career have you had to do your boss' job for a while? Its been surprising how many will be able to describe this situation - the random chance of working at the next level up. Its unsurprising though that they connect this randomness to their success.
This advice though isn't often welcome - people want to feel they are the authors of their own fate.
posted by jjderooy at 8:52 PM on August 20, 2020 [49 favorites]
The randomness of success is certainly something that our social systems have difficulty coping with. People who have attained success often look back on their journey and conclude it was a result of their decisions (including the decision to 'work hard'), when in reality it was often the lottery of their birth onwards, including the results of lots of other people's decisions.
I work in a large hierarchical organisation where promotions are keenly sought and become more competitive as the pyramid narrows the further up you go. Because of its size, promotions typically occur in a 'diagonal' way - people almost never move directly up into the role immediately above them, because there are so many moving parts.
So I enjoy routinely telling my colleagues that success comes from having your boss get sick for a long period of time. This means you get to do their job for a fair while - its uncertain when they'll return so they don't get replaced. Then when its time to compete for a promotion, you're able to describe your extensive experience at that level, up against people who can only talk about how they are outstanding at the level below.
I like to ask this of senior people in our organisation when they offer to provide career advice - how many times in your career have you had to do your boss' job for a while? Its been surprising how many will be able to describe this situation - the random chance of working at the next level up. Its unsurprising though that they connect this randomness to their success.
This advice though isn't often welcome - people want to feel they are the authors of their own fate.
posted by jjderooy at 8:52 PM on August 20, 2020 [49 favorites]
For whatever else they might have picked up meandering through the western education system, they didn't manage to learn not to telegraph their conclusion throughout the piece.
And certainly their logic around the relative quality of Chinese and English schools is specious at best. An equally plausible conclusion to offer without evidence is that UK instruction is superior to Chinese instruction.
Ironically, in my opinion, Puzhong manages to be right for the wrong reasons. The Western caste system is profoundly unfair, and MBAs are largely worthless - on that we agree.
Oh, and Costco does rule.
posted by jgooden at 9:18 PM on August 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
And certainly their logic around the relative quality of Chinese and English schools is specious at best. An equally plausible conclusion to offer without evidence is that UK instruction is superior to Chinese instruction.
Ironically, in my opinion, Puzhong manages to be right for the wrong reasons. The Western caste system is profoundly unfair, and MBAs are largely worthless - on that we agree.
Oh, and Costco does rule.
posted by jgooden at 9:18 PM on August 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Robert Rubin never intended to become the senior partner of Goldman Sachs: a few years into his career, he even handed in his resignation. Just as in Rubin’s career, I find that maybe randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor.
This is a very odd conclusion to draw from Rubin's carrier trajectory; as an American Jew of his time and social class, his family background, education, and the pressure of ethnic prejudice almost predestined him to a career as a lawyer, a doctor, or financier of a high order — which is exactly the implication of the fact that the early resignation did not and could not deflect him: he still ended up at Goldman Sachs, not just as a senior partner, but as cochairman for two years!
posted by jamjam at 9:18 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is a very odd conclusion to draw from Rubin's carrier trajectory; as an American Jew of his time and social class, his family background, education, and the pressure of ethnic prejudice almost predestined him to a career as a lawyer, a doctor, or financier of a high order — which is exactly the implication of the fact that the early resignation did not and could not deflect him: he still ended up at Goldman Sachs, not just as a senior partner, but as cochairman for two years!
posted by jamjam at 9:18 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
their logic around the relative quality of Chinese and English schools is specious at best.
I don't think he was talking about the "quality" so much as the lower sense of competition due to lower population and greater opportunities and resources - I certainly felt that way, coming from a third world country to the top university in a western country and finding the competition a lot less intense. In fact I specifically made the move because I knew the competition was less intense and I wasn't among the top achievers in my own country. Quality of education here is definitely higher.
the implication of the fact that the early resignation did not and could not deflect him
I think he finds that point fascinating because from an Asian perspective, if one wanted to succeed in a company, giving up and resigning would be unthinkable and would end your career. Work hard and succeed, give up and fail. From a Western perspective though, switching jobs and returning is perfectly normal.
posted by xdvesper at 9:34 PM on August 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
I don't think he was talking about the "quality" so much as the lower sense of competition due to lower population and greater opportunities and resources - I certainly felt that way, coming from a third world country to the top university in a western country and finding the competition a lot less intense. In fact I specifically made the move because I knew the competition was less intense and I wasn't among the top achievers in my own country. Quality of education here is definitely higher.
the implication of the fact that the early resignation did not and could not deflect him
I think he finds that point fascinating because from an Asian perspective, if one wanted to succeed in a company, giving up and resigning would be unthinkable and would end your career. Work hard and succeed, give up and fail. From a Western perspective though, switching jobs and returning is perfectly normal.
posted by xdvesper at 9:34 PM on August 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
American Affairs is one of my favourite right-of-centre reads, they're (to steal Irving Kristol's line) neoliberals mugged by reality—a group of establishment public figures who apparently realised c.2016 that something went very wrong in the post-Cold War Right, and that the crass culture warriors had edged out the intellectuals. Which explains their return and return and return to looking at societies claiming 'meritocracy' (like China and Japan), and their obsession with these ideas and questions about what constitutes 'success', and the values societies and institutions use to select for it. Or to put the question even more briefly: if meritocracy exists, why is the world run badly, by idiots and crooks, for money? I think they've got the wrong answers, but it's an obviously worthy question.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:55 PM on August 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:55 PM on August 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
I would guess that having been a trader at Goldman Sachs is such a rare necessary precondition of being a partner there that knowing someone has offered a resignation to GS increases my expectation that they’ll be a GS partner.
Also, how far down the “modest worker” scale in China can afford to send a child abroad to study? I would think of it as a serious expense for middle-class parents in the US.
posted by clew at 9:55 PM on August 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, how far down the “modest worker” scale in China can afford to send a child abroad to study? I would think of it as a serious expense for middle-class parents in the US.
posted by clew at 9:55 PM on August 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, how far down the “modest worker” scale in China can afford to send a child abroad to study?This is explicitly mentioned in the article:
Warren Buffett has said that the moment one was born in the United States or another Western country, that person has essentially won a lottery. If someone is born a U.S. citizen, he or she enjoys a huge advantage in almost every aspect of life, including expected wealth, education, health care, environment, safety, etc., when compared to someone born in developing countries. For someone foreign to “purchase” these privileges, the price tag at the moment is $1 million dollars (the rough value of the EB-5 investment visa). Even at this price level, the demand from certain countries routinely exceeds the annual allocated quota, resulting in long waiting times. In that sense, American citizens were born millionaires!posted by smcameron at 10:26 PM on August 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't think secondary students often come in on investment visas. And it still doesn't say that "modest worker" families have $1mil to spend.
posted by clew at 10:40 PM on August 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:40 PM on August 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, how far down the “modest worker” scale in China can afford to send a child abroad to study?
I actually had a large number of friends whose families had very modest incomes, who ended in the US for study. Say a family with 4 kids, single working parent, earning $US 6,000 per year. All 4 kids completed their degrees in the US. They told me that if your application and grades are good enough, once you get accepted they'll make sure you get enough financial aid to get through university. So they all studied like hell.
Secondary school students pathways are slightly more complex. I know some (single parent, working as a house cleaner or some other similar job) who managed to get their kids to western countries via some kind of family visa dependent on a relative who was already a resident there - am not clear on the specifics, but it leveraged a secondary school education to a university degree then residency.
posted by xdvesper at 11:25 PM on August 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
I actually had a large number of friends whose families had very modest incomes, who ended in the US for study. Say a family with 4 kids, single working parent, earning $US 6,000 per year. All 4 kids completed their degrees in the US. They told me that if your application and grades are good enough, once you get accepted they'll make sure you get enough financial aid to get through university. So they all studied like hell.
Secondary school students pathways are slightly more complex. I know some (single parent, working as a house cleaner or some other similar job) who managed to get their kids to western countries via some kind of family visa dependent on a relative who was already a resident there - am not clear on the specifics, but it leveraged a secondary school education to a university degree then residency.
posted by xdvesper at 11:25 PM on August 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also, how far down the “modest worker” scale in China can afford to send a child abroad to study?
I don't know, but the English sixth form that he went to before Cambridge is the sort of place that has overseas students because they pay full fees, not award scholarships and financial aid to. It's currently £45k per year plus a 15% surcharge if you weren't educated in an English system school to age 16. Similarly, but unlike eg the Ivy League, there isn't usually major institutional financial aid available at Cambridge for overseas undergraduates. Chinese students studying overseas have been a major source of income at British universities.
posted by plonkee at 1:55 AM on August 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
I don't know, but the English sixth form that he went to before Cambridge is the sort of place that has overseas students because they pay full fees, not award scholarships and financial aid to. It's currently £45k per year plus a 15% surcharge if you weren't educated in an English system school to age 16. Similarly, but unlike eg the Ivy League, there isn't usually major institutional financial aid available at Cambridge for overseas undergraduates. Chinese students studying overseas have been a major source of income at British universities.
posted by plonkee at 1:55 AM on August 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
they didn't manage to learn not to telegraph their conclusion throughout the piece.
Let's be clear, the conclusion of this 1% investment guy is nothing new in Asian circles. My elitist Asian uncle already said to me 5 years ago that China is more capitalist than the West. He said it to rationalize other sorts of capitalist shittiness. The last para of this piece repeats this sort of talking point, that America is/behaves like Communist Country and China preaches meritocratic values, aha!. It's a faux comparison rendered possible by an uncritical, unanchored framing of reality distorted by money interests. Not every perspective is original, right, or valuable.
posted by polymodus at 2:05 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Let's be clear, the conclusion of this 1% investment guy is nothing new in Asian circles. My elitist Asian uncle already said to me 5 years ago that China is more capitalist than the West. He said it to rationalize other sorts of capitalist shittiness. The last para of this piece repeats this sort of talking point, that America is/behaves like Communist Country and China preaches meritocratic values, aha!. It's a faux comparison rendered possible by an uncritical, unanchored framing of reality distorted by money interests. Not every perspective is original, right, or valuable.
posted by polymodus at 2:05 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
For whatever else they might have picked up meandering through the western education system, they didn't manage to learn not to telegraph their conclusion throughout the piece.
Uh, how is that a bad thing? It's a conclusion, not a twist ending.
posted by each day we work at 3:08 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Uh, how is that a bad thing? It's a conclusion, not a twist ending.
posted by each day we work at 3:08 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Maybe there are Chinese government grant programs to support overseas students? A cursory googling did not yield any answers, alas.
posted by Harald74 at 4:12 AM on August 21, 2020
posted by Harald74 at 4:12 AM on August 21, 2020
I remember reading this a while back – it's from 2017, and I think it did the rounds on Hacker News and social media. It's cool to see it discussed here as well though, since the subject is still valid.
So, I get that this is meant to be one person's tale of their own experiences rather than trying to view society as a whole. Insofar as he recounts his own unique and interesting tale, that's great – but his incuriousness towards other paths and stories gives this piece a very limited scope. And even within that limited scope, he doesn't seem to see very far:
I can't discount his own thoughts and motivations, and the idea that success is random is interesting. But this does not come across as primarily an essay about the randomness of success, it comes across as someone trying to implicitly draw conclusions about entire societies and institutions which they are not interested enough in to explore the full dimensions of.
posted by adrianhon at 4:18 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
So, I get that this is meant to be one person's tale of their own experiences rather than trying to view society as a whole. Insofar as he recounts his own unique and interesting tale, that's great – but his incuriousness towards other paths and stories gives this piece a very limited scope. And even within that limited scope, he doesn't seem to see very far:
The culture of Cambridge followed the dogmas of the classroom: a fervent adherence to rules and models established by tradition. For example, at Cambridge, students are forbidden to walk on grass. This right is reserved for professors only. The only exception is for those who achieve first class honors in exams; they are allowed to walk on one area of grass on one day of the year.I went to Trinity College, too. It is entirely possible to see Cambridge as dominated with weird rules and traditions and if you follow a certain path while you're there, one that is laser-focused on earning shitloads of money and working at Goldman Sachs, those rules will be extremely relevant because it really matters to get a first class degree for that path. But most people don't get first class degrees at Cambridge and most people don't study economics. Most people have different interests and priorities and they can thrive and even make lots of money doing other things in other ways.
The behavior of my British classmates demonstrated an even greater herd mentality than what is often mocked in American MBAs. For example, out of the thirteen economists in my year at Trinity, twelve would go on to join investment banks, and five of us went to work for Goldman Sachs.
I can't discount his own thoughts and motivations, and the idea that success is random is interesting. But this does not come across as primarily an essay about the randomness of success, it comes across as someone trying to implicitly draw conclusions about entire societies and institutions which they are not interested enough in to explore the full dimensions of.
posted by adrianhon at 4:18 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
There is a difference between "success is random" and "success comes to the lucky". The article word-counts random = 2 [one of which is Random House!]; luck = 5. The difference is that, to a certain extent, you make your own luck. My mother landed a dream job in 1948 because, on the London Underground, she overheard two elderly ladies moaning about personnel troubles in their nephew's business. She wrote down her 'phone number on a cigarette carton and gave it to them as she left the train. She had the confidence to do that because of her education and upbringing [and being in uniform during an 'interesting' WWII]. Richard Wiseman's The Luck Factor begins to unpick random from having agency. Partly because of my mother's luck, the folks were able to afford an expensive education for their 3 childer. I'm sure it was proportionately less expensive in the 1960s than the 2010s, wch helped.
Once you get on the ladder, different sorts of opportunities knock:
Q. What do you call the person who graduates bottom of the class in medical school?
A. Doctor
posted by BobTheScientist at 6:23 AM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Once you get on the ladder, different sorts of opportunities knock:
Q. What do you call the person who graduates bottom of the class in medical school?
A. Doctor
posted by BobTheScientist at 6:23 AM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be. A few years ago, I was reading an autobiography of a Chinese girl named Nian, who went to study in the UK when she was young. (Someone once said that it is necessary to know English in order to learn about China. Important perspectives on China are only available in English and are generally not accessible on the mainland.) She studied at the London School of Economics and met her husband. After graduation, Nian, her husband, and all their friends went back to China.
He seems to be referencing Nien Cheng in a guarded way, within his nod to Orwell.
posted by Brian B. at 6:36 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
He seems to be referencing Nien Cheng in a guarded way, within his nod to Orwell.
posted by Brian B. at 6:36 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be
He didn't go into detail on the second part of that statement, did he? I'm assuming it's a reference to history being rewritten for political purposes - which is something he doesn't talk about at all - but maybe there's something else?
posted by trig at 7:51 AM on August 21, 2020
He didn't go into detail on the second part of that statement, did he? I'm assuming it's a reference to history being rewritten for political purposes - which is something he doesn't talk about at all - but maybe there's something else?
posted by trig at 7:51 AM on August 21, 2020
The exam scores were so good that I ranked within the top ten among more than 100,000 students in the whole city.
Top 10% isn't even good enough to get auto-admitted into the public school of your choice in the US. 10% isn't exceptional (enough) in the US. He gets into that a bit, but you can really tell that different countries value education differently and spread social outcomes more equally.
Stanford and Harvard accept about one in twenty-five applicants. But in Hebei province in China, where I am from, only one in fifteen hundred applicants gets into Peking or Qinghua University.
I thought it was funny that an economist would say this as though they are equivalent. By this measure, it's actually easier to get into Harvard than it is to be a Wal-Mart cashier.
I thought all the parts about grad school were legitimately funny. He kept saying the quiet parts loud, seeing through the corporate silliness, and behaving like his best teachers would tell him to do - find the actual truth.
I personally don't get Costco.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:33 AM on August 21, 2020
Top 10% isn't even good enough to get auto-admitted into the public school of your choice in the US. 10% isn't exceptional (enough) in the US. He gets into that a bit, but you can really tell that different countries value education differently and spread social outcomes more equally.
Stanford and Harvard accept about one in twenty-five applicants. But in Hebei province in China, where I am from, only one in fifteen hundred applicants gets into Peking or Qinghua University.
I thought it was funny that an economist would say this as though they are equivalent. By this measure, it's actually easier to get into Harvard than it is to be a Wal-Mart cashier.
I thought all the parts about grad school were legitimately funny. He kept saying the quiet parts loud, seeing through the corporate silliness, and behaving like his best teachers would tell him to do - find the actual truth.
I personally don't get Costco.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:33 AM on August 21, 2020
Brian B.: He seems to be referencing Nien Cheng in a guarded way, within his nod to Orwell.
Life and Death in Shanghai is fascinating and terrifying. Its through-the-keyhole-of-the-prison-cell view of the Cultural Revolution got me obsessed with figuring out what was going on, in the same way that she was trying to figure out what was happening to her and why. Recommended.
posted by clawsoon at 8:41 AM on August 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Life and Death in Shanghai is fascinating and terrifying. Its through-the-keyhole-of-the-prison-cell view of the Cultural Revolution got me obsessed with figuring out what was going on, in the same way that she was trying to figure out what was happening to her and why. Recommended.
posted by clawsoon at 8:41 AM on August 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
xdvesper: In fact I specifically made the move because I knew the competition was less intense and I wasn't among the top achievers in my own country. Quality of education here is definitely higher.
Interesting! So the way that global wealth and power have worked out over the past century means that the West's lazier students get the better education, while the harder-working students of the rest of the world get worse education?
posted by clawsoon at 8:46 AM on August 21, 2020
Interesting! So the way that global wealth and power have worked out over the past century means that the West's lazier students get the better education, while the harder-working students of the rest of the world get worse education?
posted by clawsoon at 8:46 AM on August 21, 2020
Top 10% isn't even good enough to get auto-admitted into the public school of your choice in the US
You sure he didn't mean literal top 10, as in 10/100000 = top 0.01%?
posted by RustyBrooks at 8:54 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
You sure he didn't mean literal top 10, as in 10/100000 = top 0.01%?
posted by RustyBrooks at 8:54 AM on August 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
You sure he didn't mean literal top 10, as in 10/100000 = top 0.01%?
Re-reading yes you are probably right.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on August 21, 2020
Re-reading yes you are probably right.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on August 21, 2020
I thought it was funny that an economist would say this as though they are equivalent. By this measure, it's actually easier to get into Harvard than it is to be a Wal-Mart cashier.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you implying that Walmart hires less than 1 in 25 applicants?
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:03 AM on August 21, 2020
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you implying that Walmart hires less than 1 in 25 applicants?
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:03 AM on August 21, 2020
But then the next paragraph doesn't really make sense. He already bested them on the test (other than 10 of them I guess).
As a consequence, I got into the best class in the best school in my city, and thus began the most painful year of my life.
I guess he is implying that he got lucky on the test. But his parents already had the resources to send him overseas for school (before he even took it and struggled among the best), so is that luck or does he have resources more like 'Warren Buffet' than 'developing country'?
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:04 AM on August 21, 2020
As a consequence, I got into the best class in the best school in my city, and thus began the most painful year of my life.
I guess he is implying that he got lucky on the test. But his parents already had the resources to send him overseas for school (before he even took it and struggled among the best), so is that luck or does he have resources more like 'Warren Buffet' than 'developing country'?
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:04 AM on August 21, 2020
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you implying that Walmart hires less than 1 in 25 applicants?
They do. Way less, compared to the number of applications they receive. I'm saying that base statistics like that are deceiving.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:04 AM on August 21, 2020
They do. Way less, compared to the number of applications they receive. I'm saying that base statistics like that are deceiving.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:04 AM on August 21, 2020
They do. Way less, compared to the number of applications they receive. I'm saying that base statistics like that are deceiving.
Do you have a source? I find that pretty stunning
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:14 AM on August 21, 2020
Do you have a source? I find that pretty stunning
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:14 AM on August 21, 2020
All I can find is a reference to a Walmart opening in DC, and having 23k applicants for 600 jobs. OK, I can kind of believe that. But I don't think I believe that Walmarts average acceptance rate for cashiers is 1/25 or anywhere near it.
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:18 AM on August 21, 2020
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:18 AM on August 21, 2020
For someone foreign to “purchase” these privileges, the price tag at the moment is $1 million dollars (the rough value of the EB-5 investment visa).
I hadn't heard of the EB-5 before and looked it up. While $1m sounds like a lot to most of us, is at the low end of what it costs to open a McDonald's franchise. The EB-5 requires you to employe 10 people as well as investing the 1$m and a typical fast food chain will easily have 2-3x that.
So basically you can get a green card in the US by opening a McDonald's.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:20 AM on August 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
I hadn't heard of the EB-5 before and looked it up. While $1m sounds like a lot to most of us, is at the low end of what it costs to open a McDonald's franchise. The EB-5 requires you to employe 10 people as well as investing the 1$m and a typical fast food chain will easily have 2-3x that.
So basically you can get a green card in the US by opening a McDonald's.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:20 AM on August 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Do you have a source? I find that pretty stunning
Anecdotal, I know, but despite having been the starving student/artist at multiple points in my life, looking for any job that pays enough to make ends meet, I've been accepted into more PhD programs than cashier positions. I'd believe it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:22 AM on August 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Anecdotal, I know, but despite having been the starving student/artist at multiple points in my life, looking for any job that pays enough to make ends meet, I've been accepted into more PhD programs than cashier positions. I'd believe it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:22 AM on August 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
I guess my skepticism is also anecdotal, since I've walked into multiple grocery store jobs and I would not say that my coworkers could have been the cream of any kind of crop
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:25 AM on August 21, 2020
posted by RustyBrooks at 9:25 AM on August 21, 2020
For example, out of the thirteen economists in my year at Trinity, twelve would go on to join investment banks, and five of us went to work for Goldman Sachs.
I want him to tell us what the thirteenth did.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 9:55 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
I want him to tell us what the thirteenth did.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 9:55 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is a great article.
> > In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be.
> He didn't go into detail on the second part of that statement, did he? I'm assuming it's a reference to history being rewritten for political purposes
I agree. Arthur Koestler's novel Darkness at Noon is another fictional example of the political victors rewriting the past to crush potential competitors and secure their power base, albeit set amidst the european flavour of communism; and as others have mentioned there's Orwell's 1984:
> The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.
Regarding the future being certain - I found it fascinating to read english translations of modern chinese science fiction (Liu Cixin's Three-Body Problem & sequels) -- there's a general theme and tone of the onward march and triumph of human scientific achievement, whereas a lot of contemporary science fiction from the west is dystopian. In the western future, science and human endeavour have not triumphed, the drama is played out in the mess that we have created: climate change leads to military action between US states squabbling over water reserves, if the characters are lucky then they live in the aftermath of an event like Gibson's "Jackpot" that wiped out most of the human population, leaving a larger share of limited resources for whoever survived.
> a senior banker told us to distinguish between the process and the results. He said that we should focus on the process, which we can control, rather than the result, which is subject to luck. And here at Goldman, he said, we don’t punish people for losing money for the right reason. I have always loved asking questions, so I asked him, was anyone ever punished for making money for the wrong reason? After giving it some thought, he said that he had not heard of any such thing.
> I was expecting to be berated for my poor judgment. Instead, I got promoted! I told my manager that it was a mistake, but he merely said, “Puzhong, tell no one.” He too was promoted on the basis of managing my “brilliant” trade. In fact, my manager was so proud of my work he recommended me to Stanford’s prestigious Graduate School of Business (GSB), and I soon set off for America.
This is hilarious. It's also fun that later on there's a reference to Taleb's "black swan". Taleb's book Fooled by Randomness also drives home the message of distinguishing the process -- the partially randomised generator of possible outcomes -- from the result. It makes sense and is good advice!
> The professor seemed to like these mottos. I told him that at Goldman our motto was “be long-term greedy.” The professor couldn’t understand this motto or why it was inspiring. I explained to him that everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring.
I don't have a high opinion of Goldman but I actually love this motto, and the explanation of why it is inspiring - there's at least some attempt of raw honesty to it, although as the author notes Goldman's employees may struggle to maintain the long-term focus at times. It's good to have aspirational goals, even if they cannot be attained and only ever approached approximately.
The motto of the large corporation I work for seems to be more of the "lies for children" variety -- it refers to words like "community", but if you squint, the underlying meaning of the motto at best probably something like "help grow GDP by lending our clients money", whereas the actual purpose of the corp would be a balance of "the corporation must survive", "extract profits for the shareholders" and "extract profits for employees, particularly the ones lucky enough to find themselves closer to the flows of money".
posted by are-coral-made at 9:59 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
> > In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be.
> He didn't go into detail on the second part of that statement, did he? I'm assuming it's a reference to history being rewritten for political purposes
I agree. Arthur Koestler's novel Darkness at Noon is another fictional example of the political victors rewriting the past to crush potential competitors and secure their power base, albeit set amidst the european flavour of communism; and as others have mentioned there's Orwell's 1984:
> The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.
Regarding the future being certain - I found it fascinating to read english translations of modern chinese science fiction (Liu Cixin's Three-Body Problem & sequels) -- there's a general theme and tone of the onward march and triumph of human scientific achievement, whereas a lot of contemporary science fiction from the west is dystopian. In the western future, science and human endeavour have not triumphed, the drama is played out in the mess that we have created: climate change leads to military action between US states squabbling over water reserves, if the characters are lucky then they live in the aftermath of an event like Gibson's "Jackpot" that wiped out most of the human population, leaving a larger share of limited resources for whoever survived.
> a senior banker told us to distinguish between the process and the results. He said that we should focus on the process, which we can control, rather than the result, which is subject to luck. And here at Goldman, he said, we don’t punish people for losing money for the right reason. I have always loved asking questions, so I asked him, was anyone ever punished for making money for the wrong reason? After giving it some thought, he said that he had not heard of any such thing.
> I was expecting to be berated for my poor judgment. Instead, I got promoted! I told my manager that it was a mistake, but he merely said, “Puzhong, tell no one.” He too was promoted on the basis of managing my “brilliant” trade. In fact, my manager was so proud of my work he recommended me to Stanford’s prestigious Graduate School of Business (GSB), and I soon set off for America.
This is hilarious. It's also fun that later on there's a reference to Taleb's "black swan". Taleb's book Fooled by Randomness also drives home the message of distinguishing the process -- the partially randomised generator of possible outcomes -- from the result. It makes sense and is good advice!
> The professor seemed to like these mottos. I told him that at Goldman our motto was “be long-term greedy.” The professor couldn’t understand this motto or why it was inspiring. I explained to him that everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring.
I don't have a high opinion of Goldman but I actually love this motto, and the explanation of why it is inspiring - there's at least some attempt of raw honesty to it, although as the author notes Goldman's employees may struggle to maintain the long-term focus at times. It's good to have aspirational goals, even if they cannot be attained and only ever approached approximately.
The motto of the large corporation I work for seems to be more of the "lies for children" variety -- it refers to words like "community", but if you squint, the underlying meaning of the motto at best probably something like "help grow GDP by lending our clients money", whereas the actual purpose of the corp would be a balance of "the corporation must survive", "extract profits for the shareholders" and "extract profits for employees, particularly the ones lucky enough to find themselves closer to the flows of money".
posted by are-coral-made at 9:59 AM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
RustyBrooks: I guess my skepticism is also anecdotal, since I've walked into multiple grocery store jobs and I would not say that my coworkers could have been the cream of any kind of crop
I don't know much about Harvard vs. Walmart, but I did find this from Walmart, which says that they received 1 million applications between March 19th and April 17th of this year, and hired 150,000 people.
Perhaps an irony has been produced here: Because people don't think that Walmart is selective they apply in huge numbers, which leads to Walmart having to reject most of them.
posted by clawsoon at 10:14 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't know much about Harvard vs. Walmart, but I did find this from Walmart, which says that they received 1 million applications between March 19th and April 17th of this year, and hired 150,000 people.
Perhaps an irony has been produced here: Because people don't think that Walmart is selective they apply in huge numbers, which leads to Walmart having to reject most of them.
posted by clawsoon at 10:14 AM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
15% seems like a believable number
posted by RustyBrooks at 10:35 AM on August 21, 2020
posted by RustyBrooks at 10:35 AM on August 21, 2020
Of course the future is certain in capitalist America, for some reasonable measure of certainty (let me use the phrase "almost certain" to satisfy the pedants). A homeless child today is almost certainly not going to be a Fortune 500 CEO in the future, and a child born to a Fortune 500 CEO today is almost certainly not going to be homeless in the future.
Social mobility is low in the US, much lower than other countries. While we claim to be the land of opportunity, the US gravely lags many other countries by empirical metrics and is worse than the OECD average. (To be clear, China is even worse off than the US when it comes to social mobility; I'm not suggesting it's better.)
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:15 AM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Social mobility is low in the US, much lower than other countries. While we claim to be the land of opportunity, the US gravely lags many other countries by empirical metrics and is worse than the OECD average. (To be clear, China is even worse off than the US when it comes to social mobility; I'm not suggesting it's better.)
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:15 AM on August 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
splitpeasoup: While we claim to be the land of opportunity, the US gravely lags many other countries by empirical metrics and is worse than the OECD average. (To be clear, China is even worse off than the US when it comes to social mobility; I'm not suggesting it's better.)
It has been argued that low mobility in the US is related to having highly selective universities at the top of the hierarchy, compared to the giant universities at the top of the Canadian hierarchy. I wonder to what degree high selectivity in the Chinese university system contributes to the lack of social mobility that you mention for them.
posted by clawsoon at 12:53 PM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
It has been argued that low mobility in the US is related to having highly selective universities at the top of the hierarchy, compared to the giant universities at the top of the Canadian hierarchy. I wonder to what degree high selectivity in the Chinese university system contributes to the lack of social mobility that you mention for them.
posted by clawsoon at 12:53 PM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think there are a lot of people who don't apply to Harvard or the like because even though they'd like to go there they don't think they'd be accepted, or have told they won't be accepted by their guidance counsellors, and don't want to spend the time or money on a doomed application. It isn't 1 in 25 people who want to go to Harvard get in, it's 1 in 25 who apply get in, with that 25 already self-selecting to people with a plausible chance of getting in.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:57 PM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:57 PM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
Harvard is partially hard to get into because it's full of legacy students. 43% of white students were legacy in 2019.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 1:36 PM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 1:36 PM on August 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Warren Buffett has said that the moment one was born in the United States or another Western country, that person has essentially won a lottery.
More precisely, if one is born white.
posted by y2karl at 1:58 PM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
More precisely, if one is born white.
posted by y2karl at 1:58 PM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
Current Chinese science fiction seems remarkably similar to most 1940s and 1950s US science fiction where one could say better living through chemistry without a trace of irony.
posted by monotreme at 6:02 PM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by monotreme at 6:02 PM on August 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
While $1m sounds like a lot to most of us, is at the low end of what it costs to open a McDonald's franchise. The EB-5 requires you to employ 10 people as well as investing the 1$m and a typical fast food chain will easily have 2-3x that.
Note that EB-5 visa holders get to keep that million dollar investment, so it's not like they're actually paying 1m, unless they're really bad at business. It's more like you're paying whatever marginal loss of returns versus what you would get investing elsewhere, so it's nowhere near 1million dollars expensive -- in theme park terms it's closer to 'you must be this tall to ride' than 'price of admission.'
That said, Warren Buffet certainly won the cosmic lottery: his father was a stockbroker and Congressman. You can be assured that all the wheeling and dealing he did early in life was fueled in part by his father's tutelage and perhaps even funding.
posted by pwnguin at 1:38 AM on August 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Note that EB-5 visa holders get to keep that million dollar investment, so it's not like they're actually paying 1m, unless they're really bad at business. It's more like you're paying whatever marginal loss of returns versus what you would get investing elsewhere, so it's nowhere near 1million dollars expensive -- in theme park terms it's closer to 'you must be this tall to ride' than 'price of admission.'
That said, Warren Buffet certainly won the cosmic lottery: his father was a stockbroker and Congressman. You can be assured that all the wheeling and dealing he did early in life was fueled in part by his father's tutelage and perhaps even funding.
posted by pwnguin at 1:38 AM on August 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
This was a really confusing read, not even in a bad way, just confused the hell out of me. It's a really weird mixture of detachment, disdain, humblebrag, irony, alienation, with a glimmering of socio-historical perspective, but added in such a haphazard way, almost as if to mock the reader's expectations in satisfying them. "I wonder," the author muses, "if I had lived in an entirely different world, and been an entirely different person, would things have been different? Ah, the randomness of life." It's such a flatly banal observation, particularly since the author's own trajectory in life has been anything but banal or random. He was gifted and ambitious, studied very hard, distinguished himself in China, which got him into Cambridge, which got him into Goldman Sachs, where he distinguished himself again, which ultimately landed him in the sort of milieu where you end up writing pieces for American Affairs. Random?
At times it's almost as if there's a seething resentment beneath the detached tone and the banal philosophizing. Buying a heart rate monitor to prove you have emotions? Jeez. At times it's almost if the writer is acidly mocking the audience.
posted by dmh at 7:34 AM on August 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
At times it's almost as if there's a seething resentment beneath the detached tone and the banal philosophizing. Buying a heart rate monitor to prove you have emotions? Jeez. At times it's almost if the writer is acidly mocking the audience.
posted by dmh at 7:34 AM on August 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Oh, I agree the author is telling us he’s not telling us what he’s telling us he’s telling us. Guess Culture squared, a classic essay form especially under untrustworthy governments, and a reaction to vacuous mission statements that makes sense to me.
posted by clew at 10:18 AM on August 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:18 AM on August 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
dmh: Buying a heart rate monitor to prove you have emotions? Jeez.
IIRC, he bought the heart rate monitor to prove that he wasn't having emotions.
posted by clawsoon at 12:51 PM on August 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
IIRC, he bought the heart rate monitor to prove that he wasn't having emotions.
posted by clawsoon at 12:51 PM on August 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
are-coral-made, monotreme, there are plenty of dystopian futures in current Chinese sci-fi works, like "Folding Beijing" by Hao Jingfang. There are popular works online that get even darker (think "Hungry Games" with 10x more sadism and firepower), but I doubt they would get translated into English soon.
posted by of strange foe at 12:55 PM on August 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by of strange foe at 12:55 PM on August 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
I mean, he's right that top schools in the US and UK are less competitive than top schools in China, purely because of the numbers. China is a huge country but the number of highly competitive schools is the same, you have to beat 20x (at least) the number of people to get in. This is just obvious, right? I got a masters degree in the UK (not at a top school though - it was a school I applied to because I couldn't get into grad school in the US) and this was something the overseas students from China talked about all the time.
Even if the author's family has money, he's still from Shijiazhuang not Paris so I think that's playing into his framing of being from a modest background.
I think dmh is on the money about the resentment underlying this piece. Of course there could be a lot of reasons, the author says he is bad with people and this will limit his options for advancement even though he works hard. It's also not that easy being an overseas student from China in the UK, racism is alive and well. I dated a girl from Hong Kong whose father was a math genius who made tens of millions on the stock market and he also came to the UK as a teenager and had a very difficult time of it. I think we all recognize the combo of arrogance and humility of someone who's very good at one or two things (math; and the author is an excellent writer) and struggles in other areas.
posted by subdee at 8:25 AM on August 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Even if the author's family has money, he's still from Shijiazhuang not Paris so I think that's playing into his framing of being from a modest background.
I think dmh is on the money about the resentment underlying this piece. Of course there could be a lot of reasons, the author says he is bad with people and this will limit his options for advancement even though he works hard. It's also not that easy being an overseas student from China in the UK, racism is alive and well. I dated a girl from Hong Kong whose father was a math genius who made tens of millions on the stock market and he also came to the UK as a teenager and had a very difficult time of it. I think we all recognize the combo of arrogance and humility of someone who's very good at one or two things (math; and the author is an excellent writer) and struggles in other areas.
posted by subdee at 8:25 AM on August 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
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They were very confused, though, as they said their goal was to help me find my passion and my calling. I told them that my calling was to make money for my family. They were trying to be helpful, but in my case, their advice didn’t turn out to be very helpful.
As someone who long ago gave up on any intersection between "passion" and paying the rent, I rather enjoyed that interaction.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:45 PM on August 20, 2020 [3 favorites]