The Intersection is Under Construction
August 23, 2020 10:54 AM Subscribe
In Solarpunk, “there’s something missing. The intersection with communities of faith is roped off,” argues Rob Cameron in The New Modality.
Previously on Metafilter:
Previously on Metafilter:
- Afrofuturism and Solarpunk (on an essay also written by Rob Cameron)
- Sunvault: the first English anthology to collect solarpunk writing
- Posts tagged with solarpunk
Religion is not synonymous with Christianity.
Pagan religions are religions.
posted by heatherlogan at 11:23 AM on August 23, 2020 [21 favorites]
Pagan religions are religions.
posted by heatherlogan at 11:23 AM on August 23, 2020 [21 favorites]
*ahem* The Wikipedia entry on Solarpunk, linked in the FPP, names four books as "[n]otable literary precursors" of the solarpunk genre: "Ernest Callenbach's 1975 novel Ecotopia: The Notebooks and Reports of William Weston and Starhawk's ecofeminist trilogy The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993), Walking to Mercury (1997) and City of Refuge (2015)."
Three of these four novels were written by a major international religious leader. Tell me again how the intersection with communities of faith is roped off? Or do Pagan women not count for some reason?
posted by heatherlogan at 11:35 AM on August 23, 2020 [19 favorites]
Three of these four novels were written by a major international religious leader. Tell me again how the intersection with communities of faith is roped off? Or do Pagan women not count for some reason?
posted by heatherlogan at 11:35 AM on August 23, 2020 [19 favorites]
I recognize this limitation is a result of the culture in which I was raised (i.e., late 20th century America) but I can't imagine what a religion would look like that didn't have as its structural goal the hegemonic control of at least a limited population, if not the entire world. Would I even recognize it as a "religion"? Maybe I'd call it a "moral code," or possibly a "faith" if it involved belief in the supernatural.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:40 AM on August 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:40 AM on August 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
Faint of Butt, non-proselytising religions are a thing! I'm most familiar with Wicca (if you're interested in the history of the most structured, definitely-a-religion form of Wicca, this documentary won't do you wrong), but there are definitely others.
posted by heatherlogan at 11:43 AM on August 23, 2020
posted by heatherlogan at 11:43 AM on August 23, 2020
faint of butt: i am not going to make this case myself, because i’m not jewish, but as an outsider it seems to me that your definition of “religion” excludes reform judaism.
shoot, even though i’m not a unitarian i feel comfortable saying that your definition excludes unitarianism.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:46 AM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
shoot, even though i’m not a unitarian i feel comfortable saying that your definition excludes unitarianism.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:46 AM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
also i’m not a satanist but most satanist churches are left out of that definition as well
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:47 AM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:47 AM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon, I think the matter may be that you and I have differing opinions of Reform Judaism and Unitarianism.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:51 AM on August 23, 2020
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:51 AM on August 23, 2020
i dunno, it feels to me like you’re begging the question (in the technical sense). you’re taking as an assumption the proposition that you’re trying to prove.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:54 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:54 AM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
I probably am begging the question. I can't imagine a religion whose purpose is anything other than control because I've never seen anything called a religion that does not attempt to exert control or that I do not suspect of desiring to exert control. I am also equally suspicious of organized atheism. And most civic organizations. And nation-states. Basically any group of two or more humans working towards a common goal.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:59 AM on August 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:59 AM on August 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
So then when point are you trying to make about the article, exactly?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:08 PM on August 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:08 PM on August 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
I can’t speak for the piece’s author but my generous interpretation is that Cameron was lamenting the lack of communities of faith in solarpunk as it is currently written.
I am not an expert in solarpunk so I apologise if this is a bad piece – I noticed Metafilter had a previous well-regarded post Cameron on afrofuturism and solarpunk, so I thought the site would be interested in this one. It gave me a lot of food for thought as someone who’s interested in the subject, but I agree it would be better if he’d mentioned the precursors.
posted by adrianhon at 12:10 PM on August 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
I am not an expert in solarpunk so I apologise if this is a bad piece – I noticed Metafilter had a previous well-regarded post Cameron on afrofuturism and solarpunk, so I thought the site would be interested in this one. It gave me a lot of food for thought as someone who’s interested in the subject, but I agree it would be better if he’d mentioned the precursors.
posted by adrianhon at 12:10 PM on August 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
I apologize.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:10 PM on August 23, 2020
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:10 PM on August 23, 2020
> I am also equally suspicious of organized atheism. And most civic organizations. And nation-states. Basically any group of two or more humans working towards a common goal.
ah, the central creed of generation x :)
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
ah, the central creed of generation x :)
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
But then the Tyranny of Structurelessness, Faint of Butt, so either we cooperate-and-verify, or it's just counsels of despair all the way down. (Previously.)
My favorite solarpunk or eco-fiction SFF is conscious of this vexed problem -- the Bannerless books, for instance.
posted by clew at 12:48 PM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
My favorite solarpunk or eco-fiction SFF is conscious of this vexed problem -- the Bannerless books, for instance.
posted by clew at 12:48 PM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
The "punk" suffix has been beaten to death, but any discussion on ecological futurism in fiction that doesn't mention Star's Reach by John Michael Greer is lacking.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:05 PM on August 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
I am with the people who broadly see most religions as they exist today as authoritarian systems that exist to oppress. I am also kinda with the people who see some religious movements trying to break out of that mold (though their track records have been decidedly mixed). I also want to remind folks of that word "intersection" which is in the FPP title. For a lot of progressives and marginalized people, even religions that are authoritarian and oppressive in some instances can be tools and communities of liberation in others. Black churches have been at the forefront of civil rights fights (but have often been awful to Black LGBT folx).
A genre that's purposefully utopian is always going to struggle with how to include the messy screwed-up-ness of humans and the inherent corruptibility of institutions. And it's so easy for the religious left to just ease into secular humanism that it can be hard to imagine a vibrant positive pro-science diverse progressive religious future. But I would love to see more of what authors in this vein can come up with!
posted by rikschell at 1:10 PM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
A genre that's purposefully utopian is always going to struggle with how to include the messy screwed-up-ness of humans and the inherent corruptibility of institutions. And it's so easy for the religious left to just ease into secular humanism that it can be hard to imagine a vibrant positive pro-science diverse progressive religious future. But I would love to see more of what authors in this vein can come up with!
posted by rikschell at 1:10 PM on August 23, 2020 [10 favorites]
any discussion on ecological futurism in fiction that doesn't mention Star's Reach by John Michael Greer is lacking.
For those living under a rock, John Michael Greer was Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America from 2003 to 2015. But of course, the intersection of solarpunk with communities of faith is roped off, so we can't consider that a "real" religion, now can we?
posted by heatherlogan at 1:24 PM on August 23, 2020 [6 favorites]
For those living under a rock, John Michael Greer was Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America from 2003 to 2015. But of course, the intersection of solarpunk with communities of faith is roped off, so we can't consider that a "real" religion, now can we?
posted by heatherlogan at 1:24 PM on August 23, 2020 [6 favorites]
Hey hey John Michael was my old boss when I lived in Seattle!
posted by jessamyn at 1:33 PM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 1:33 PM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
It sounds to me like Rob Cameron is exhorting the authors of solarpunk to embrace our religious wiring as a core driver of culture, and turn it to the redivinization of the natural and physical world and our relationships with it and with each other. If this isn't wonderfully lowercase-p pagan, I don't know what is. :)
Our cultural memory is what energizes resilience under stress, and it’s often coded into religion. [...] It’s hidden in plain sight in conjure, an African-American folk magic and spiritual practice. According to Black Magic: Religion and the African American Conjuring Tradition, by Yvonne P. Chireau, in Antebellum South Carolina, a conjure practitioner was declared by other slaves to be his own master, because “he knew things both seen and unseen.” Chireau notes that Henry Hammond, a loud proponent of slavery and a plantation owner, attempted to punish his slaves for acts of rebellion and vandalism. But the slaves’ belief in their protection via conjure was too strong: They continued to rebel despite his punishments. “They had adopted a conceptual framework to which Hammond had no access.”posted by heatherlogan at 2:53 PM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
In The Experiential Caribbean, by Pablo Gomez, we find, “Black Caribbean knowledge producers embraced the crisis of cultural uprooting… of the seventeenth century to create new forms of knowledge making that reasserted the power of the human experience to make truthful claims about nature.” They were, “active receptors, shapers, and most importantly, acculturating agents,” creating new ideological algorithms.
If you know where to look, history is rife with examples of people of color reframing imposed ideologies, rewiring them into complexes of Western religious symbols, artifacts of the estranged past, and new Indigenous knowledge. The upgraded software runs multiple tasks: Asserting power. Creating moral authority for rebellion. Telling stories of better futures, an end to suffering. Assembling critical mass for viral movements to reprogram hierarchies: Revolution. This sounds awfully necessary if we’re to survive what comes next. [...]
Gaia philosophy is making a comeback.
A fair amount of science fiction/speculative fiction, thankfully not all, but a great deal, focuses primarily on technology and ignores or merely skims things like culture, ideology, spirituality, society, and laws, organizations and that's a shame.
Some of the best SF does examine these things.
posted by gryftir at 3:35 PM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
Some of the best SF does examine these things.
posted by gryftir at 3:35 PM on August 23, 2020 [2 favorites]
I don't get it. Maybe the style just made me grumpy (it read as such a mishmash of [citation needed] and 'how do you do, fellow kids'...statements? one-liners? that I was reminded of old Dennis Miller routines).
Is the thesis that solarpunk fiction needs more spiritualism, more 'representation' for religious characters, so authors have a duty to include, or even insert it? Because their bamboo carbon nanotube and aerogel agridome visions would never have manifested without a religious drive, so leaving that out is skipping several steps, ones that deserve an exigesis via the story?
Or is it that real life, material existence not the stories we interpret it through, needs more of the neo-religiosity, the spiritual 'reduce, recycle, remix' philosophy that existing solarpunk fiction already contains?
I can't tell. But to cheer myself up, I'm gonna go re-read Kim Stanley Robinson's Pacific Edge, where that solarpunk society's spiritual community bonding sabbath day ritual was, IIRC, town-league softball.
posted by bartleby at 3:42 PM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
Is the thesis that solarpunk fiction needs more spiritualism, more 'representation' for religious characters, so authors have a duty to include, or even insert it? Because their bamboo carbon nanotube and aerogel agridome visions would never have manifested without a religious drive, so leaving that out is skipping several steps, ones that deserve an exigesis via the story?
Or is it that real life, material existence not the stories we interpret it through, needs more of the neo-religiosity, the spiritual 'reduce, recycle, remix' philosophy that existing solarpunk fiction already contains?
I can't tell. But to cheer myself up, I'm gonna go re-read Kim Stanley Robinson's Pacific Edge, where that solarpunk society's spiritual community bonding sabbath day ritual was, IIRC, town-league softball.
posted by bartleby at 3:42 PM on August 23, 2020 [7 favorites]
I am a Quaker and some of my closest friends are also in peace churches and we all love solarpunk memes and aesthetics and ideas, but it's probably more because we are weird old millennial leftists than anything else.
Across many non-Christian supremacist faith groups in the United States, the populations are aging, and solarpunk has a lot of The Youth vibes to it. My Quaker meeting has lots of environmental committees and activities full of people over 65, but I have a hard time imagining how to introduce solarpunk to them because then do I need to explain steampunk? Punk-punk??
posted by mostly vowels at 6:41 PM on August 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
Across many non-Christian supremacist faith groups in the United States, the populations are aging, and solarpunk has a lot of The Youth vibes to it. My Quaker meeting has lots of environmental committees and activities full of people over 65, but I have a hard time imagining how to introduce solarpunk to them because then do I need to explain steampunk? Punk-punk??
posted by mostly vowels at 6:41 PM on August 23, 2020 [3 favorites]
I like using "cli-fi", or climate fiction.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:38 PM on August 23, 2020
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:38 PM on August 23, 2020
Sorry, "cli-fi" will never sound like anything but lesbian porn to me.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:15 AM on August 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 7:15 AM on August 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
It defines solarpunk as optimistic, so the absence of religion seems unsurprising to me. I'm not just being snarky here, I don't really see how religion, which is based on the promise of pie in the sky by and by and therefore depends on widespread suffering to exist, survive in a world with less human suffering and pie right now?
posted by sotonohito at 8:34 AM on August 24, 2020
posted by sotonohito at 8:34 AM on August 24, 2020
Side issue, but the use of terms like 'communities of faith' as a replacement for 'religions' seems really mealymouthed and exclusive. It makes it seem like religious people are the only ones with faith, which in my experience is very much not true. If you want to say 'what about religions?' just say it without claiming ownership of an entire aspect of human experience.
posted by signal at 8:39 AM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:39 AM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think it may be more an issue for the SFF genre(s) as a whole: I know that there are many notable exceptions (like The Parable of the Sower, discussed in the article; my first thought was of A Canticle for Leibowitz, also I really need to read The Sparrow). But there are also many other works where it feels like there is this missing chunk of society where religion/religious belief takes up space, especially religions that resemble Abrahamic religions and/or have complex organizations. (It's really glaring in the cod-medieval Europe fantasies that forget to include what was then one of the most important structures in society: a powerful religious institution working for good and ill. The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold is a nice exception - and shows both the use and misuse of religious power).
The inclusion of paganism, polytheism and/or animism are more common, as noted in the examples above - but they are not Abrahamic (or even monotheistic religious) nor are they hierarchically structured. Especially with science fiction that is set in a not-so-distant future, you wouldn't expect things like religions to just disappear - and that's one of the reasons I like little touches like Ivanova sitting shiva for her father in Babylon 5; I've been reading The City in the Middle of Night, and one of the characters makes passing reference to her bat mitzvah, studying Torah at the synagogue - which is a nice touch of continuity in a society that is otherwise very divorced from what was. I didn't notice the lack in something like Star Trek, but now I wonder: where are all the Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus?
I would agree that there is a genre of Christian post-apocalyptic fiction - not just Left Behind, but other series of essentially "the world is destroyed, so we get to re-make it into our [patriarchal, white-exclusive] paradise". But that exists outside of SFF mainstream, which tends to lean towards either atheism or paganism - or sometimes alien/fictional religions, but they are more like practices like Buddhism than like an Abrahamic religion.
(also, I did skim the FPP - but carefully, as I haven't read The Parable of the Sower and didn't want to be spoiled completely).
As for the derail about what makes a religion: that's tangential - the article is talking both about religious experiences (universal in societies) and religious institutions/organizations (not so universal). I think SFF does better with including the former than the latter, but the article makes a very good point that religious institutions will likely be a very important part of any way our society develops, whether that is for good or for bad. I look to something like the marriage equality movement, and I don't see religion on one side, secular on the other, but I see inclusive religious institutions (e.g. the United Church of Canada, Reform Judaism, and the Metropolitan Community Church, of course!) versus conservative religious institutions. In developing a world where we don't destroy our own planet, religious institutions have a place. But will they take it?
posted by jb at 8:39 AM on August 24, 2020
The inclusion of paganism, polytheism and/or animism are more common, as noted in the examples above - but they are not Abrahamic (or even monotheistic religious) nor are they hierarchically structured. Especially with science fiction that is set in a not-so-distant future, you wouldn't expect things like religions to just disappear - and that's one of the reasons I like little touches like Ivanova sitting shiva for her father in Babylon 5; I've been reading The City in the Middle of Night, and one of the characters makes passing reference to her bat mitzvah, studying Torah at the synagogue - which is a nice touch of continuity in a society that is otherwise very divorced from what was. I didn't notice the lack in something like Star Trek, but now I wonder: where are all the Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus?
I would agree that there is a genre of Christian post-apocalyptic fiction - not just Left Behind, but other series of essentially "the world is destroyed, so we get to re-make it into our [patriarchal, white-exclusive] paradise". But that exists outside of SFF mainstream, which tends to lean towards either atheism or paganism - or sometimes alien/fictional religions, but they are more like practices like Buddhism than like an Abrahamic religion.
(also, I did skim the FPP - but carefully, as I haven't read The Parable of the Sower and didn't want to be spoiled completely).
As for the derail about what makes a religion: that's tangential - the article is talking both about religious experiences (universal in societies) and religious institutions/organizations (not so universal). I think SFF does better with including the former than the latter, but the article makes a very good point that religious institutions will likely be a very important part of any way our society develops, whether that is for good or for bad. I look to something like the marriage equality movement, and I don't see religion on one side, secular on the other, but I see inclusive religious institutions (e.g. the United Church of Canada, Reform Judaism, and the Metropolitan Community Church, of course!) versus conservative religious institutions. In developing a world where we don't destroy our own planet, religious institutions have a place. But will they take it?
posted by jb at 8:39 AM on August 24, 2020
It defines solarpunk as optimistic, so the absence of religion seems unsurprising to me. I'm not just being snarky here, I don't really see how religion, which is based on the promise of pie in the sky by and by and therefore depends on widespread suffering to exist, survive in a world with less human suffering and pie right now?
And thus we are back to the original derail: Religions, even Abrahamic religions, are not all based on the promise of "pie in the sky". Not even all Christian denominations are based on that, and Judaism is specifically not oriented towards any heavenly reward but to life in the world right now.
It's been 22+ years since I read it, but one point I remember from David Noble's The Religion of Technology is that at one point, the Catholic Church claimed that its existence was predicted millennium or golden age - that is, reward was here as well as to come. Noble's book itself traces a different stream of thought: that the purpose of life on Earth is to make life better, more like heaven, in order to help God bring the golden age - and thus improving quality of life on Earth was itself a religious act.
posted by jb at 8:49 AM on August 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
And thus we are back to the original derail: Religions, even Abrahamic religions, are not all based on the promise of "pie in the sky". Not even all Christian denominations are based on that, and Judaism is specifically not oriented towards any heavenly reward but to life in the world right now.
It's been 22+ years since I read it, but one point I remember from David Noble's The Religion of Technology is that at one point, the Catholic Church claimed that its existence was predicted millennium or golden age - that is, reward was here as well as to come. Noble's book itself traces a different stream of thought: that the purpose of life on Earth is to make life better, more like heaven, in order to help God bring the golden age - and thus improving quality of life on Earth was itself a religious act.
posted by jb at 8:49 AM on August 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
Notably: the monks and scientists Noble writes about would have cared only about human quality of life and not the planet in general, but it's not a far stretch to think that if they lived today, they would be concerned about the environment as a major factor in reducing human suffering.
posted by jb at 8:50 AM on August 24, 2020
posted by jb at 8:50 AM on August 24, 2020
And re-reading the review I just posted: I see that I was wrong in detail - their search for perfection was more about knowing and mastering the natural world (to regain divinity) than alleviating suffering. But it was also about trying to regain some of what was lost in The Fall from Grace, and definitely was not about religion needing suffering to have a purpose.
When people talk about religion as being reward in the hereafter, most of the time they are thinking about Christianity (and, to a lesser extent, Islam). But within Christianity and Islam, there are many people who feel that their religion pushes them to be environmentalist - that is, because and not in spite of their religious beliefs.
posted by jb at 9:02 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
When people talk about religion as being reward in the hereafter, most of the time they are thinking about Christianity (and, to a lesser extent, Islam). But within Christianity and Islam, there are many people who feel that their religion pushes them to be environmentalist - that is, because and not in spite of their religious beliefs.
posted by jb at 9:02 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'd like to apologize without reservation for my earlier comment. At the time I did think I was raising a valid point and not just indulging my snark, but in retrospect that was motivated reasoning and pure bullshit on my part. I'm sorry, it was a lousy comment and should never have been made.
posted by sotonohito at 10:00 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by sotonohito at 10:00 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
The inclusion of paganism, polytheism and/or animism are more common, as noted in the examples above - but they are not Abrahamic (or even monotheistic religious) nor are they hierarchically structured. Especially with science fiction that is set in a not-so-distant future, you wouldn't expect things like religions to just disappear [...]
jb, I don't understand what you're getting at here. Pagan, polytheist, and/or animist religions ARE RELIGIONS.
posted by heatherlogan at 1:08 PM on August 24, 2020
jb, I don't understand what you're getting at here. Pagan, polytheist, and/or animist religions ARE RELIGIONS.
posted by heatherlogan at 1:08 PM on August 24, 2020
heatherlogan: yes, they are religions. I was noting that they are not Abrahamic, monotheist, or hierarchically structured religions, which is what that sentence says.
As for religions disappearing, Christianity and Islam are, respectively, the largest religions right now, followed by Hinduism. My point was that when reading a book or watching a tv series set sometime like 22xx, it's weird when there are no Christians, Muslims or Hindus. And given that religion has been a major political force in many different places and different times, it feels like something is missing when a fictional society doesn't have religion as a major political force.
The point of the article is that solarpunk thinkers are themselves not well connected with larger religious communities, with the notable exception of Afrofuturists.
posted by jb at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
As for religions disappearing, Christianity and Islam are, respectively, the largest religions right now, followed by Hinduism. My point was that when reading a book or watching a tv series set sometime like 22xx, it's weird when there are no Christians, Muslims or Hindus. And given that religion has been a major political force in many different places and different times, it feels like something is missing when a fictional society doesn't have religion as a major political force.
The point of the article is that solarpunk thinkers are themselves not well connected with larger religious communities, with the notable exception of Afrofuturists.
posted by jb at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
The reason I keep coming back to the issue of Abrahamic/monotheist religions is that these are the majority religions in Western societies, where most of the solarpunk writers are coming from. And the author of the FPP thinks its strange that the genre isn't connected with them.
I'm not so surprised: I'm not familiar with either solarpunk or Afrofuturism, but I am familiar with SFF fandom and in the past my experience is that it was somewhat hostile to Abrahamic religions, while being welcoming to paganism, polytheism and animism. And not opinionated about Hinduism? That was probably due to Western/Euro- bias, which meant people didn't think about Hinduism, while Buddhism got a pass for being, on the surface, a "pacifist" religion stereotyped by meditating monks.
posted by jb at 1:29 PM on August 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm not so surprised: I'm not familiar with either solarpunk or Afrofuturism, but I am familiar with SFF fandom and in the past my experience is that it was somewhat hostile to Abrahamic religions, while being welcoming to paganism, polytheism and animism. And not opinionated about Hinduism? That was probably due to Western/Euro- bias, which meant people didn't think about Hinduism, while Buddhism got a pass for being, on the surface, a "pacifist" religion stereotyped by meditating monks.
posted by jb at 1:29 PM on August 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
I didn't notice the lack in something like Star Trek, but now I wonder: where are all the Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus?
There are probably some around, at least some of the time; Kirk makes reference to Jesus (not by name) in the TOS episode "Bread and Circuses". The franchise as a whole seems to prefer to refer to religion allegorically, though, usually in the context of criticizing the general concept or specific aspects of religion. (There was an episode of Enterprise, for example, in which a planet that had a holy war between the believers who held that their deities created the universe in nine days and the ones who believe that they took ten days.) Benjamin Sisko of DS9 sometimes gets referred to as "Alien Space Jesus" because, well, that's what he is, and it features heavily in the first episode of the series, the last episode, and several in between. One of the recurring villains of the series is the Bajorans' pope; another who's the series' archvillain eventually becomes a cult leader; the head of security on the station is considered a god by many of the subjects of the evil empire. And so on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
There are probably some around, at least some of the time; Kirk makes reference to Jesus (not by name) in the TOS episode "Bread and Circuses". The franchise as a whole seems to prefer to refer to religion allegorically, though, usually in the context of criticizing the general concept or specific aspects of religion. (There was an episode of Enterprise, for example, in which a planet that had a holy war between the believers who held that their deities created the universe in nine days and the ones who believe that they took ten days.) Benjamin Sisko of DS9 sometimes gets referred to as "Alien Space Jesus" because, well, that's what he is, and it features heavily in the first episode of the series, the last episode, and several in between. One of the recurring villains of the series is the Bajorans' pope; another who's the series' archvillain eventually becomes a cult leader; the head of security on the station is considered a god by many of the subjects of the evil empire. And so on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:46 PM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
I need to read some solarpunk. I have been steeped in eco-dystopias forever, but I could really use some hope.
posted by hydropsyche at 1:51 PM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 1:51 PM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
The omission of organized religion in Trek was a conscious choice by Gene Roddenberry, who believed that humanity would one day "outgrow" the need for religion.
As a Jew, I am distinctly uncomfortable with that: any future where we don't exist is one that we were removed from, not one where we gave up our faith by choice.
That said, I would like to note that Judaism definitely has the most tree-based holidays of any monotheistic religion I'm aware of, and therefore seems very compatible with solarpunk. Give me Tu B'Shevat in space!
posted by nonasuch at 2:16 PM on August 24, 2020 [8 favorites]
As a Jew, I am distinctly uncomfortable with that: any future where we don't exist is one that we were removed from, not one where we gave up our faith by choice.
That said, I would like to note that Judaism definitely has the most tree-based holidays of any monotheistic religion I'm aware of, and therefore seems very compatible with solarpunk. Give me Tu B'Shevat in space!
posted by nonasuch at 2:16 PM on August 24, 2020 [8 favorites]
One of the recurring villains of the series is the Bajorans' pope
I really liked the introduction of not just religious ideas/feelings, but also religious institutions in DS9 - religious leaders have been such a powerful force in Earth history, it just feels like a richer imagining of the alien cultures to have them there as well.
But, while I didn't know that Roddenberry was explicit about it, again I'm not surprised by nonasuch mentioning that it was a conscious exclusion.
I don't think I agree with Roddenberry - I think that the urge to religion (encompassing ritual, time marking, supernatural things - whatever shape it takes) will always be there, for some people. It's personal, and if you feel it, you feel it, and if you don't, you don't.
As a Jew, I am distinctly uncomfortable with that: any future where we don't exist is one that we were removed from, not one where we gave up our faith by choice.
That's one of the reasons I loved the Jewish reference in The City in the Middle of the Night - it's set hundreds of years in the future on an alien (and very geographically hostile) planet, people are scraping by - but they still have synagogues and b'not mitzvah, and generations marching on. (Also, because everyone likes to see themselves in media.)
Now I'm trying to count the number of Jewish holidays for trees - are there more than Tu B'Shevat? Does Lag B'Omer count? (I really don't know anything about that holiday, except that it's usually too cold in Canada to have a bonfire).
posted by jb at 3:32 PM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I really liked the introduction of not just religious ideas/feelings, but also religious institutions in DS9 - religious leaders have been such a powerful force in Earth history, it just feels like a richer imagining of the alien cultures to have them there as well.
But, while I didn't know that Roddenberry was explicit about it, again I'm not surprised by nonasuch mentioning that it was a conscious exclusion.
I don't think I agree with Roddenberry - I think that the urge to religion (encompassing ritual, time marking, supernatural things - whatever shape it takes) will always be there, for some people. It's personal, and if you feel it, you feel it, and if you don't, you don't.
As a Jew, I am distinctly uncomfortable with that: any future where we don't exist is one that we were removed from, not one where we gave up our faith by choice.
That's one of the reasons I loved the Jewish reference in The City in the Middle of the Night - it's set hundreds of years in the future on an alien (and very geographically hostile) planet, people are scraping by - but they still have synagogues and b'not mitzvah, and generations marching on. (Also, because everyone likes to see themselves in media.)
Now I'm trying to count the number of Jewish holidays for trees - are there more than Tu B'Shevat? Does Lag B'Omer count? (I really don't know anything about that holiday, except that it's usually too cold in Canada to have a bonfire).
posted by jb at 3:32 PM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
For Trek, I'm pretty sure that I've seen set dressing on pretty much every show/ship, of the sort of non-denominational 'chapel' you would find in a large present-day hospital. So there is a space reserved for prayer and ceremonies, at least.
(Don't recall ever hearing of a chaplain corps in Starfleet, though.)
For pagans, transcendentalists, Sukkot, and anybody who just likes to sit under a tree, I do know for sure that the early Deadalus class starships were designed with an arboretum aft, below the shuttle bay. Maybe the aqua-pagans hang out with the cetacean crew members? (Yes, there are space whale crew on some ships. What, they make great navigators, they think three-dimensionally.)
One of the things people love or hate about DS9 is the long arcs, since they can't do planet of the week. From the pilot's 'Hey guess what, you are now literally a prophet in the nearby planet's religion. Heh. Good luck with that.', through Evil Space Pope politicking, to the end, religion as a planetary-scale cultural force is a thing. It's just a space religion.
The Altered Carbon series, where the SF premise is that an implant can record your brain, and if your body breaks, your consciousness can be re-sleeved in another body. There's a faction called the Neo-Catholics, who believe that you can't record The Immortal Soul or separate it from the physical body; the whole idea of techno-resurrection is anathema to them. But I guess that's more philosophy than religion?
posted by bartleby at 3:39 PM on August 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
(Don't recall ever hearing of a chaplain corps in Starfleet, though.)
For pagans, transcendentalists, Sukkot, and anybody who just likes to sit under a tree, I do know for sure that the early Deadalus class starships were designed with an arboretum aft, below the shuttle bay. Maybe the aqua-pagans hang out with the cetacean crew members? (Yes, there are space whale crew on some ships. What, they make great navigators, they think three-dimensionally.)
One of the things people love or hate about DS9 is the long arcs, since they can't do planet of the week. From the pilot's 'Hey guess what, you are now literally a prophet in the nearby planet's religion. Heh. Good luck with that.', through Evil Space Pope politicking, to the end, religion as a planetary-scale cultural force is a thing. It's just a space religion.
The Altered Carbon series, where the SF premise is that an implant can record your brain, and if your body breaks, your consciousness can be re-sleeved in another body. There's a faction called the Neo-Catholics, who believe that you can't record The Immortal Soul or separate it from the physical body; the whole idea of techno-resurrection is anathema to them. But I guess that's more philosophy than religion?
posted by bartleby at 3:39 PM on August 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
One thing I've noticed during these, the Plague Times, is how central religion is for many people. Even for centralised faiths it isn't just someone shouting at you from a pulpit: it's a communal focus that provides opportunities for people to come together and provides formalised ways of getting people through hard times.
There's a religious group here in Melbourne which has been skirting the pandemic lockdown laws by redefining themselves as a support group and having (masked, socially-distanced, limited numbers) prayers after their meetings. Originally I was Not Impressed but after some thought I've concluded that this is exactly what they are. I have a friend who told me the effort he takes to attend his 12-Step group (one of the ones patterned after Alcoholics Anonymous) even though he's not presently showing signs of addiction, because he knows that he'll go off the rails without this regularity. I've read many other accounts with the same theme. Why should I assume that these people aren't filling a similar need?
The other thing I've changed my mind about is the importance of ceremonies and religious functionaries. People who lost relatives during our lockdown found it especially hard because they didn't have the structured grieving process of more normal times - not just the interment attended by friends and relatives, but a standardised order of events that doesn't force the mourners to organise things themselves and make decisions about the ceremony. I used to be all "lol, clericalism" myself but this has changed me, even the rapacious clergy of socialist horror stories were fundamentally important to their congregants' lives in all sorts of ways that we just take for granted. In a way, they were a proto-liberalising force because their involvement provided an egalitarian element to births, deaths, and marriages. Without it, who would have cared to record the births of the poor, or arranged for the decent interment of people without relatives?
So, to bring this back on topic, I feel that a story that ignores religion is lacking something. I can imagine purges leading to an a-religious future, but people seem to need ceremonies; and that creates a need for officiants who know how things are done and whose position – their office, if you will – gives their directions more weight. In other words, it makes the proceedings seem more official. It was very telling that marriages during the lockdown in Melbourne could have five physical attendees, even though from a governmental perspective it's just an agreement between two persons. One of those five (besides the bride and groom and two witnesses) was the marriage officiant. A comparable position is allowed for funerals, incidentally. At the highest levels, we recognise that religion is important.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:08 PM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
There's a religious group here in Melbourne which has been skirting the pandemic lockdown laws by redefining themselves as a support group and having (masked, socially-distanced, limited numbers) prayers after their meetings. Originally I was Not Impressed but after some thought I've concluded that this is exactly what they are. I have a friend who told me the effort he takes to attend his 12-Step group (one of the ones patterned after Alcoholics Anonymous) even though he's not presently showing signs of addiction, because he knows that he'll go off the rails without this regularity. I've read many other accounts with the same theme. Why should I assume that these people aren't filling a similar need?
The other thing I've changed my mind about is the importance of ceremonies and religious functionaries. People who lost relatives during our lockdown found it especially hard because they didn't have the structured grieving process of more normal times - not just the interment attended by friends and relatives, but a standardised order of events that doesn't force the mourners to organise things themselves and make decisions about the ceremony. I used to be all "lol, clericalism" myself but this has changed me, even the rapacious clergy of socialist horror stories were fundamentally important to their congregants' lives in all sorts of ways that we just take for granted. In a way, they were a proto-liberalising force because their involvement provided an egalitarian element to births, deaths, and marriages. Without it, who would have cared to record the births of the poor, or arranged for the decent interment of people without relatives?
So, to bring this back on topic, I feel that a story that ignores religion is lacking something. I can imagine purges leading to an a-religious future, but people seem to need ceremonies; and that creates a need for officiants who know how things are done and whose position – their office, if you will – gives their directions more weight. In other words, it makes the proceedings seem more official. It was very telling that marriages during the lockdown in Melbourne could have five physical attendees, even though from a governmental perspective it's just an agreement between two persons. One of those five (besides the bride and groom and two witnesses) was the marriage officiant. A comparable position is allowed for funerals, incidentally. At the highest levels, we recognise that religion is important.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:08 PM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Well and it's such an opportunity, right? Like you can have a future world in which we've learned to alter some of the fundamental laws of physics but we can't really think about new ways to find meaning in the idea of the divine? The book Planetfall deals with this somewhat, it's a colony story that has at its heart a messianic leader and a... problem and then there is a need to try to figure out how to adapt. It doesn't go down the "Lol it's nonsense" path but it doesn't veer into "god is real" either. I'm not sure how it would resonate with other people but I was actually super interested in the way it dealt with religion as a topic without having to push too much of an opinion of it on the reader.
posted by jessamyn at 4:57 PM on August 24, 2020
posted by jessamyn at 4:57 PM on August 24, 2020
A hopefully better set of thoughts.
I'd suggest that the reason for the relative lack of religious representation in SFF in general, including solarpunk, is due to a number of factors which intersect and most of which are due to SFF authors generally not being experts in more than (at most) one religion.
First, and most obvious, the author may simply be prejudiced against religion and take the position that if we've learned to alter the fundamental laws of physics the idea of the divine has been abandoned just as we abandoned the humors model of illness. Gene Roddenberry took basically that approach with Star Trek, in his vision humanity had outgrown religion in much the same way it had outgrown money.
Second, and almost as bad as the first from the standpoint of being prejudiced against religion, is sheer laziness and controversy avoidance. Including religion in a fair, non-tokenized, non-bigoted, non-ignorant, way is a lot more difficult than simply omitting religion. Especially if the author isn't religious or raised religious.
It involves research, thoughtful conversations with members of a number of religions, and beta/proof reading of the work by members of all included religions. Failure to do it right means pain in the form of criticism due to either getting it wrong or reducing various religions to tokens. The path of least resistance is simply to not bother.
And even if a person is part of a religion and includes it in a way they think works they can still be subject to harsh criticism, it's not quite the same but note how the trans author of the short story I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter was driven to withdraw her story after other trans people objected (mostly due to the title, but some due to the content).
Attempting to include religion in a thoughtful, sensitive, way is hard and has little reward. You can make a good argument that it's necessary for realism and I'd tend to agree (much as I'd like to hope we will have abandoned religion by 22XX I'll concede it seems unlikely), but it's hard and a lot of authors will just avoid that hard work.
Third and included because I think it's one of the most common excuses for 2, solarpunk stories tend to involve people finding technological solutions to technological problems. Its easy for an author to look at the difficulty of including religion the right way and to conclude that it's OK to be lazy because the story is about technology not religion.
I think a combination of the above is also why we see so many made up religions (some better thought out than others). Including real religions is a minefield that requires lots of work to navigate successfully, including a made up religion isn't.
None of which excuses the lack of religion, I'll agree that from a realism standpoint it really ought to be there. But I think the relatively high risks, relatively low rewards, and the sheer amount of labor it takes to do it right explains the relative lack of religion.
The more I think about it the more I do come to the conclusion that, especially in the modern era when the net makes it so easy to talk to people of almost every background and religion, it's incredibly lazy not to at least try to do it right. But the same net also makes the backlash for trying and getting it wrong enough of a risk I can still see the decision to omit religion as being not wholly lazy.
I'm in favor of the social justice movement, but I do think it has upped the risk for including religion and getting it wrong which probably makes a great many authors (especially those who are atheists) reluctant to wade into the minefield and take the risk even if they aren't just lazily choosing to sidestep the problem.
posted by sotonohito at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest that the reason for the relative lack of religious representation in SFF in general, including solarpunk, is due to a number of factors which intersect and most of which are due to SFF authors generally not being experts in more than (at most) one religion.
First, and most obvious, the author may simply be prejudiced against religion and take the position that if we've learned to alter the fundamental laws of physics the idea of the divine has been abandoned just as we abandoned the humors model of illness. Gene Roddenberry took basically that approach with Star Trek, in his vision humanity had outgrown religion in much the same way it had outgrown money.
Second, and almost as bad as the first from the standpoint of being prejudiced against religion, is sheer laziness and controversy avoidance. Including religion in a fair, non-tokenized, non-bigoted, non-ignorant, way is a lot more difficult than simply omitting religion. Especially if the author isn't religious or raised religious.
It involves research, thoughtful conversations with members of a number of religions, and beta/proof reading of the work by members of all included religions. Failure to do it right means pain in the form of criticism due to either getting it wrong or reducing various religions to tokens. The path of least resistance is simply to not bother.
And even if a person is part of a religion and includes it in a way they think works they can still be subject to harsh criticism, it's not quite the same but note how the trans author of the short story I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter was driven to withdraw her story after other trans people objected (mostly due to the title, but some due to the content).
Attempting to include religion in a thoughtful, sensitive, way is hard and has little reward. You can make a good argument that it's necessary for realism and I'd tend to agree (much as I'd like to hope we will have abandoned religion by 22XX I'll concede it seems unlikely), but it's hard and a lot of authors will just avoid that hard work.
Third and included because I think it's one of the most common excuses for 2, solarpunk stories tend to involve people finding technological solutions to technological problems. Its easy for an author to look at the difficulty of including religion the right way and to conclude that it's OK to be lazy because the story is about technology not religion.
I think a combination of the above is also why we see so many made up religions (some better thought out than others). Including real religions is a minefield that requires lots of work to navigate successfully, including a made up religion isn't.
None of which excuses the lack of religion, I'll agree that from a realism standpoint it really ought to be there. But I think the relatively high risks, relatively low rewards, and the sheer amount of labor it takes to do it right explains the relative lack of religion.
The more I think about it the more I do come to the conclusion that, especially in the modern era when the net makes it so easy to talk to people of almost every background and religion, it's incredibly lazy not to at least try to do it right. But the same net also makes the backlash for trying and getting it wrong enough of a risk I can still see the decision to omit religion as being not wholly lazy.
I'm in favor of the social justice movement, but I do think it has upped the risk for including religion and getting it wrong which probably makes a great many authors (especially those who are atheists) reluctant to wade into the minefield and take the risk even if they aren't just lazily choosing to sidestep the problem.
posted by sotonohito at 7:48 AM on August 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Maybe (some) authors aren't writing about religion because they don't find it interesting?
I'm not saying it's not intrinsically interesting, just that authors pick and choose what to include, and maybe religion isn't high on their priorities.
For instance, I'm very interested in how language would evolve, but not every, or most, SF authors actually engage with this to my view more central issue than religions. Ditto for music, for example. You rarely see anything beyond 'the space teenager listened to the latest ultra-bop from the music mines of the planet Bopponia'.
posted by signal at 11:14 AM on August 25, 2020
I'm not saying it's not intrinsically interesting, just that authors pick and choose what to include, and maybe religion isn't high on their priorities.
For instance, I'm very interested in how language would evolve, but not every, or most, SF authors actually engage with this to my view more central issue than religions. Ditto for music, for example. You rarely see anything beyond 'the space teenager listened to the latest ultra-bop from the music mines of the planet Bopponia'.
posted by signal at 11:14 AM on August 25, 2020
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Ideology (the dogmatic kind) has often been the death of free thinkers and first adopters. It has produced conservative paradigms that sustained brutal hierarchies, birthed unforgettable monsters, and poured bleach on other people’s history.
These paradigms were behind the Left Behind series, the juggernaut of Christian fiction. I don't think that solarpunk is at all incompatible with religion, but when I imagine what that alchemical marriage might be like, I envision something more pagan.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:18 AM on August 23, 2020 [11 favorites]