Uber, But For Evictions
September 21, 2020 5:58 PM Subscribe
One of the major problems with the economic downturn has been people falling behind on rent, threatening them with eviction. Another has been the lack of jobs making the working class desperate for work. And as Vice reports, a new gig economy firm calling itself Civvl is trying to marry the two together to make money, turning the execution of evictions into a gig economy job. (SLVice)
I was thinking of starting a web service called SCAB, but then remembered that pretty much every web startup seems designed (as has been noted here and elsewhere) to unravel labor gains and funnel money to the oligarchy. #neofeudalism
posted by mecran01 at 6:05 PM on September 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by mecran01 at 6:05 PM on September 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Devilish, I don't going around thinking the devil is real, but then there's this.
posted by eustatic at 6:05 PM on September 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 6:05 PM on September 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
...just in case you needed more evidence that 2020 America is one sick dystopia.
posted by Slothrup at 6:06 PM on September 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 6:06 PM on September 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
The app's called Civvl Agent. It's down to 1.5 stars in Google Play, but it can always be lower!
posted by FeatherWatt at 6:06 PM on September 21, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by FeatherWatt at 6:06 PM on September 21, 2020 [15 favorites]
Rentier capitalism is literally eating itself from the inside.
OK so as the chips begin to fall to the table, where exactly do landlords think their next bunch of tenants are going to come from? Yes there are going to be millions looking for homes but they're going to all have evictions and unpaid rents on their record. We're going to have a million homes where the people who would be otherwise willing to rent can't be matched with people who won't rent to them only because of the aftermath of an economic black swan event.
What then? I get that the mortgage company isn't going to play nice when it comes to you missing payments on the property but they're not going to be any nicer because you can't find a viable tenant who doesn't have a clean credit check and eviction record. I hesitate to think of the impending economic shock that's going to happen to the housing market simply because of the tragedy of the commons.
It doesn't help that the state and local governments have literally kicked cans down the road and have no practical way of sorting through the rubble of the rental market and trying to piece it back together again.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:09 PM on September 21, 2020 [23 favorites]
OK so as the chips begin to fall to the table, where exactly do landlords think their next bunch of tenants are going to come from? Yes there are going to be millions looking for homes but they're going to all have evictions and unpaid rents on their record. We're going to have a million homes where the people who would be otherwise willing to rent can't be matched with people who won't rent to them only because of the aftermath of an economic black swan event.
What then? I get that the mortgage company isn't going to play nice when it comes to you missing payments on the property but they're not going to be any nicer because you can't find a viable tenant who doesn't have a clean credit check and eviction record. I hesitate to think of the impending economic shock that's going to happen to the housing market simply because of the tragedy of the commons.
It doesn't help that the state and local governments have literally kicked cans down the road and have no practical way of sorting through the rubble of the rental market and trying to piece it back together again.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:09 PM on September 21, 2020 [23 favorites]
Well the other thing they’ve made easier, is indentifying who’s first up against the wall.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 6:11 PM on September 21, 2020 [34 favorites]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 6:11 PM on September 21, 2020 [34 favorites]
Hahaha, this is genius in the same way that Shkreli was a genius. Optimizing the incompetent cruelties of The System for mindless profit. Now they just need to snag a few strategic Republicans on their board, and next thing you know they'll be doing work for HUD.
posted by aramaic at 6:13 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 6:13 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
So how long until someone gets assigned to evict themselves?
posted by madcaptenor at 6:14 PM on September 21, 2020 [66 favorites]
posted by madcaptenor at 6:14 PM on September 21, 2020 [66 favorites]
This is... perverse.
The judges would also have accepted “gross.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:16 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
The judges would also have accepted “gross.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:16 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
The links on their website ("Foreclosure Cleanouts", "Post Notices", etc) all go to this... generic placeholder site? (Complete with Lorem ipsum text)
The app appears to be real-ish, so I guess its real but just incredibly sloppy?
posted by thefoxgod at 6:19 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
The app appears to be real-ish, so I guess its real but just incredibly sloppy?
posted by thefoxgod at 6:19 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
So how long until someone gets assigned to evict themselves?
It’s a meet cute in Fall On Me, a middling 2024 romcom where Willow Smith and Millie Bobby Brown are gig economy “coworkers“ who each get assigned to evict the other.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:21 PM on September 21, 2020 [70 favorites]
It’s a meet cute in Fall On Me, a middling 2024 romcom where Willow Smith and Millie Bobby Brown are gig economy “coworkers“ who each get assigned to evict the other.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:21 PM on September 21, 2020 [70 favorites]
At least here in California, process servers must be registered with the county. Also, evicting tenets by writing a ~1200 check to a lawyer and only hearing back when A) the tenant has moved out, or B) a court date has been scheduled that requires the attendance of the property owner, have existed since they invented court ordered evictions.
We've only had to evict one tenant (turns out that if you are a live in care giver of my mother, you don't actually get to inherit the property after she dies. Who knew??", but there is literally nothing new about this company besides their stupid name. Even the CL ad is probably nothing new.
EDIT: Also, preemptively: Writing ad copy along of lines of: "things being terrible for lots of people could mean great job opportunities for you!!" is definitely not new.
posted by sideshow at 6:22 PM on September 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
We've only had to evict one tenant (turns out that if you are a live in care giver of my mother, you don't actually get to inherit the property after she dies. Who knew??", but there is literally nothing new about this company besides their stupid name. Even the CL ad is probably nothing new.
EDIT: Also, preemptively: Writing ad copy along of lines of: "things being terrible for lots of people could mean great job opportunities for you!!" is definitely not new.
posted by sideshow at 6:22 PM on September 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
So how long until someone gets assigned to evict themselves?
sweet AND salty: 1984 + Fahrenheit 451
posted by j_curiouser at 6:26 PM on September 21, 2020
sweet AND salty: 1984 + Fahrenheit 451
posted by j_curiouser at 6:26 PM on September 21, 2020
But Civvl is connected to a larger—and real—gig economy company called OnQall, which describes itself as an app that provides "on-demand task services to non-urban communities beyond main city areas." OnQall is the developer behind other, more believable TaskRabbit-esque apps, like LawnFixr, CleanQwik, and MoveQwik.
FOR FUCK'S SAKE STOP IT WITH THE TORTURED NAMES. [ahem, sorry] BUT REALLY, "ONQALL??!?!?!!?!?
Also the gig economy needs serious and well-structured restrictions yesterday. I'm not against the entire concept of companies that facilitate pick-up work, and legitimately freelance self-employed folks (I'm married to one) need to not get caught in the cross-fire of regulation. But we have enough abusive labor practices already flourishing within more traditional industries; this newish loophole needs to be sewn the fuck up.
posted by desuetude at 6:32 PM on September 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
FOR FUCK'S SAKE STOP IT WITH THE TORTURED NAMES. [ahem, sorry] BUT REALLY, "ONQALL??!?!?!!?!?
Also the gig economy needs serious and well-structured restrictions yesterday. I'm not against the entire concept of companies that facilitate pick-up work, and legitimately freelance self-employed folks (I'm married to one) need to not get caught in the cross-fire of regulation. But we have enough abusive labor practices already flourishing within more traditional industries; this newish loophole needs to be sewn the fuck up.
posted by desuetude at 6:32 PM on September 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
Yup, it's a golden age for the repo business... one which will surely never end.
posted by entropone at 6:50 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by entropone at 6:50 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
The gig economy is just a scam for destroying workers' livelihoods and rights.
I remember when there was all that bullshit about the web empowering people and communities.
Just another technology of oppression, once it fell fully into corporate control.
posted by lathrop at 6:51 PM on September 21, 2020 [21 favorites]
I remember when there was all that bullshit about the web empowering people and communities.
Just another technology of oppression, once it fell fully into corporate control.
posted by lathrop at 6:51 PM on September 21, 2020 [21 favorites]
In negative reviews in the Google Play and App Store, users complain about a hidden $35 enrollment fee to access the platform, and a lack of work once signed up.
Yet another layer of awful irony to all this: screwing their early adopters.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:58 PM on September 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Yet another layer of awful irony to all this: screwing their early adopters.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:58 PM on September 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
The links on their website ("Foreclosure Cleanouts", "Post Notices", etc) all go to this... generic placeholder site? (Complete with Lorem ipsum text)🎶 but on the other side / it didn't say nothing / this land was made for you and me 🎶
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:03 PM on September 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
Huh. I wonder how they confirm that the eviction actually happened? I mean, if scammers were to try to sign up under assumed names, fake the eviction and collect the money, that would be unfortunate for that horrible, horrible company and its horrible, horrible customers.
posted by suetanvil at 7:16 PM on September 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by suetanvil at 7:16 PM on September 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
There’s some angle being worked here. This OnQall company doesn’t seem legit; they have only the thinnest internet presence, and what they have is completely rincky-dink. They’ve got a bunch of AdSense ads on their company website. It’s possible that this is just a ploy to drive ad traffic. It could also be something weirder? My guess is that the company is a one-man operation and any income is borderline scam.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:16 PM on September 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 7:16 PM on September 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is the worst cyberpunk novel I've ever read and I seem to be trapped inside of it. Help?
posted by overglow at 7:22 PM on September 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by overglow at 7:22 PM on September 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
The app's called Civvl Agent. It's down to 1.5 stars in Google Play, but it can always be lower!
Interestingly, the negative reviews seem to have a lot to do with the users being upcharged to connect to the service and having their fees cut for the 'work'.
There are some positive reviews which look like spam, which one can flag if one is so inclined
posted by StarkRoads at 7:23 PM on September 21, 2020
Interestingly, the negative reviews seem to have a lot to do with the users being upcharged to connect to the service and having their fees cut for the 'work'.
There are some positive reviews which look like spam, which one can flag if one is so inclined
posted by StarkRoads at 7:23 PM on September 21, 2020
In negative reviews in the Google Play and App Store, users complain about a hidden $35 enrollment fee to access the platform...
And there’s the angle! I think this is a simple case of Trump University-esque fraud. He’s probably gotten more attention than he was hoping for, though.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:23 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
And there’s the angle! I think this is a simple case of Trump University-esque fraud. He’s probably gotten more attention than he was hoping for, though.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:23 PM on September 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I looked a bit at the other OnQall app reviews, too. It looks like this company is some guy in Florida who makes gig economy apps that charge would-be workers a "registration fee" or "background check fee". Total scam. The different app names (LawnFixr, CleanQwik, MoveQwik, Civvl) make it harder to keep track of; very skeezy. Hopefully this media attention puts him out of business.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:38 PM on September 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 7:38 PM on September 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
This . . . almost has to be an art project, right?
I guess on the plus side it's helping me think of people other than Bill Barr to put in the wicker man. Now that it's fall, I mean.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:22 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
I guess on the plus side it's helping me think of people other than Bill Barr to put in the wicker man. Now that it's fall, I mean.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:22 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
So how long until someone gets assigned to evict themselves?
sweet AND salty: 1984 + Fahrenheit 451
That plotline feels a bit more Phillip K. Dick to me. Or like a movie based on a PKD story, anyway.
posted by atoxyl at 8:51 PM on September 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
sweet AND salty: 1984 + Fahrenheit 451
That plotline feels a bit more Phillip K. Dick to me. Or like a movie based on a PKD story, anyway.
posted by atoxyl at 8:51 PM on September 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
So how long until someone gets assigned to evict themselves?
Is the user name 'Bob Arctor' taken yet? if not, I'm in!
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:53 PM on September 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
Is the user name 'Bob Arctor' taken yet? if not, I'm in!
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:53 PM on September 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
I think most/all of you are getting this wrong.
All these services are doing is connecting process servers with those who need their "processes" served. There is nothing new here, at all. The "Uber for X" angle here is just lazy-ass reporting.
For example, when I got divorced, I filled out some paperwork, had my soon to be ex-wife sign it, and then a mutual friend sign it saying he "served" me in service of my wife. When in fact everything happened around my kitchen table. But, if I was being an asshole or was otherwise hard to get to, my wife (or a divorce attorney) would have to hire someone to track me down at work/home and that person would "serve" me.
When you are getting evicted, someone has to go up to the property and "serve" papers, usually by stapling it to the door. Although, at my local Yogurtland that's going out of business ($12k a month in rent, can you believe it) they just duct taped it to the glass door. One of my Irvine neighbors went back to China instead of staying their entire lease last Winter, and their landlord put it on the garage door. The renters told the landlord they were leaving the country and "sorry!", but he still had to "serve" the empty house because that's what Orange County says you have to do.
Anyway, this kinda thing has happened forever, and ever, and ever. Go find you closest real estate/litigation/family law/etc attorney, and they have a contact list full of process servers. The services in this story are promising to get you, a (registered if you are in California) process server into those contact lists. But, sounds like all they really are are some terrible websites and some Craigs List ads, so in reality all they have is this Vice articles and people arguing about it on MetaFilter.
posted by sideshow at 9:30 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
All these services are doing is connecting process servers with those who need their "processes" served. There is nothing new here, at all. The "Uber for X" angle here is just lazy-ass reporting.
For example, when I got divorced, I filled out some paperwork, had my soon to be ex-wife sign it, and then a mutual friend sign it saying he "served" me in service of my wife. When in fact everything happened around my kitchen table. But, if I was being an asshole or was otherwise hard to get to, my wife (or a divorce attorney) would have to hire someone to track me down at work/home and that person would "serve" me.
When you are getting evicted, someone has to go up to the property and "serve" papers, usually by stapling it to the door. Although, at my local Yogurtland that's going out of business ($12k a month in rent, can you believe it) they just duct taped it to the glass door. One of my Irvine neighbors went back to China instead of staying their entire lease last Winter, and their landlord put it on the garage door. The renters told the landlord they were leaving the country and "sorry!", but he still had to "serve" the empty house because that's what Orange County says you have to do.
Anyway, this kinda thing has happened forever, and ever, and ever. Go find you closest real estate/litigation/family law/etc attorney, and they have a contact list full of process servers. The services in this story are promising to get you, a (registered if you are in California) process server into those contact lists. But, sounds like all they really are are some terrible websites and some Craigs List ads, so in reality all they have is this Vice articles and people arguing about it on MetaFilter.
posted by sideshow at 9:30 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Well the other thing they’ve made easier, is indentifying who’s first up against the wall
"We're gonna need a bigger wall."
posted by klanawa at 9:55 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
"We're gonna need a bigger wall."
posted by klanawa at 9:55 PM on September 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Anyway, this kinda thing has happened forever, and ever, and ever.
Yes. Landlords have been evicting people for ever, and ever, and ever, and working-class process servers have been pitted against working class tenants for ages.
It wasn't good then, it isn't good now, and it's pretty grotesque that a company has tried to doll an appalling industry up with a thin veener of "disruptive" gig-economy bullshit.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:26 PM on September 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Yes. Landlords have been evicting people for ever, and ever, and ever, and working-class process servers have been pitted against working class tenants for ages.
It wasn't good then, it isn't good now, and it's pretty grotesque that a company has tried to doll an appalling industry up with a thin veener of "disruptive" gig-economy bullshit.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:26 PM on September 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
I suspect that if this is a real business, their "model" is plausible deniability:
"What, you're ringing up to complain about the process server? Well, I'm sure we can find you their details ...
"The eviction notice is invalid? You had better take that up with the owner.
"The agent acted unlawfully? Well, you have to understand that we're just a matching service. take it up with the agent. Or the owner!"
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:09 PM on September 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
"What, you're ringing up to complain about the process server? Well, I'm sure we can find you their details ...
"The eviction notice is invalid? You had better take that up with the owner.
"The agent acted unlawfully? Well, you have to understand that we're just a matching service. take it up with the agent. Or the owner!"
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:09 PM on September 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
The young man apologized very courteously for having awakened K., introduced himself as the son of the Civvl, and then said: “This apartment belongs to Civvl, and whoever lives here or passes the night here does so in a manner of speaking in Civvl itself. Nobody may do that without Civvl's permission. But you have no such permit, or at least you have produced none.”
K. had half raised himself and now, smoothing down his hair and looking up at the two men, he said: “What apartment is this I have wandered into? Is there an app here?”
“Most certainly,” replied the young man slowly, while here and there a head was shaken over K.’s remark, “the app of my lord the Developer.”
“And must one have accepted a terms and conditions to sleep here?” asked K., as if he wished to assure himself that what he had heard was not a dream.
“One must have a terms and conditions,” was the reply, and there was an ironical contempt for K. in the young man’s gesture as he stretched out his arm and appealed to the others, “Or must one
not have a terms and conditions?”
posted by geoff. at 11:54 PM on September 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
K. had half raised himself and now, smoothing down his hair and looking up at the two men, he said: “What apartment is this I have wandered into? Is there an app here?”
“Most certainly,” replied the young man slowly, while here and there a head was shaken over K.’s remark, “the app of my lord the Developer.”
“And must one have accepted a terms and conditions to sleep here?” asked K., as if he wished to assure himself that what he had heard was not a dream.
“One must have a terms and conditions,” was the reply, and there was an ironical contempt for K. in the young man’s gesture as he stretched out his arm and appealed to the others, “Or must one
not have a terms and conditions?”
posted by geoff. at 11:54 PM on September 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
Cory Doctorow is cursing somewhere that real life stole the plot of his next novel.
posted by zardoz at 12:02 AM on September 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 12:02 AM on September 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
The "Uber for X" angle here is just lazy-ass reporting.
I'm sure that it's also literally quoting from their business plan. Maybe it's lazy-ass rentierism.
And maybe it would take a modicum of empathy to see why the fact they're so gleeful over this is so painful to people who, unlike you, have to worry about being able to pay their rent.
posted by ambrosen at 12:02 AM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm sure that it's also literally quoting from their business plan. Maybe it's lazy-ass rentierism.
And maybe it would take a modicum of empathy to see why the fact they're so gleeful over this is so painful to people who, unlike you, have to worry about being able to pay their rent.
posted by ambrosen at 12:02 AM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
My sister and I have a running joke about an imaginary 1980’s action TV series: Link McNichols, Process Server. (It was inspired by a conversation we overheard in a restaurant, in which a process server was regaling somebody with stories of their most unusual assignments.)
McNichols goes go to all kinds of exotic locations and faces untold dangers before delivering his catchphrase, “Consider yourself served, sucker!” (“Sucker” is sometimes replaced with some other sibilant term such as “sister,” “sonny,” etc.)
He has a boss who’s like the beleaguered captain in every cop show. “Dammit, McNichols, just serve the papers and get out of there! I’ve had enough of your shenanig... ow, my blood pressure!”
It’s on Tuesday nights, right after the show about the Fast Food Lawyer.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:20 AM on September 22, 2020 [23 favorites]
McNichols goes go to all kinds of exotic locations and faces untold dangers before delivering his catchphrase, “Consider yourself served, sucker!” (“Sucker” is sometimes replaced with some other sibilant term such as “sister,” “sonny,” etc.)
He has a boss who’s like the beleaguered captain in every cop show. “Dammit, McNichols, just serve the papers and get out of there! I’ve had enough of your shenanig... ow, my blood pressure!”
It’s on Tuesday nights, right after the show about the Fast Food Lawyer.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:20 AM on September 22, 2020 [23 favorites]
I've spent some time imagining dystopian futures, but my imagination have never stretched this far...
posted by Harald74 at 12:43 AM on September 22, 2020
posted by Harald74 at 12:43 AM on September 22, 2020
1984 + Fahrenheit 451
Sounds more like '99 Homes' than Fahrenheit 451, same director though.
posted by biffa at 12:51 AM on September 22, 2020
Sounds more like '99 Homes' than Fahrenheit 451, same director though.
posted by biffa at 12:51 AM on September 22, 2020
The app's called Civvl Agent. It's down to 1.5 stars in Google Play, but it can always be lower!Hmm. I submitted a review, as far as I know, and now it's gone. Let's see if a more subtle review sticks.
posted by eotvos at 5:02 AM on September 22, 2020
Anyone think that this is just a grift ripping off those poor and desperate enough to want a job like this? There's the eviction ban. And the $35 enrollment fee. Get the app made for a few thousand, another hundred or two for cloud computing and boom, all you need is 200-300 people desperate enough to take any job and you've already made a profit. No evictions necessary, just having a soul worthy of membership in the Trump cabinet.
posted by Hactar at 5:20 AM on September 22, 2020
posted by Hactar at 5:20 AM on September 22, 2020
I think most/all of you are getting this wrong.
Yes, because everyone on this thread is an idiot who has never had to serve someone, been served with legal papers, or seen a TV show involving lawyers.
No one is questioning the existence of process serving, just turning it into a weird, technologically enabled gig-economy job (process serving has always been kinda gig-economy anyway, just usually cleared through a legal support services firm that has a regular roster of contractors) that turns out to mostly be a scam perpetuated on the people who are desperate for work for the exact same reason that people are being evicted.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:27 AM on September 22, 2020 [22 favorites]
Yes, because everyone on this thread is an idiot who has never had to serve someone, been served with legal papers, or seen a TV show involving lawyers.
No one is questioning the existence of process serving, just turning it into a weird, technologically enabled gig-economy job (process serving has always been kinda gig-economy anyway, just usually cleared through a legal support services firm that has a regular roster of contractors) that turns out to mostly be a scam perpetuated on the people who are desperate for work for the exact same reason that people are being evicted.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:27 AM on September 22, 2020 [22 favorites]
There's the eviction ban.
That hasn't stopped some landlords from trying.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:41 AM on September 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
That hasn't stopped some landlords from trying.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:41 AM on September 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
The memes about this are plentiful, but it's true; when the prior generations told us we'd (I'm 33) become more right-leaning as we grew older, all they meant was that they grew callous with increased wealth and distance from their peers.
Startups like this seem to reinforce the notion -- to me, at least -- that those in the highest income brackets (entrepreneurs/capitalists/landlords) are basically pitting those with lower incomes against each other, to reinforce their power structures.
Apologies for being the resident socialist crank; although I suspect I'm in largely sympathetic company. I've been told I relate everything back to capitalism being evil, but I can't get around what seems like mounting evidence that that's true. And gig work (especially this) seems like the most extreme manifestation of capitalism, where those running the company have all the power and profit and the workers have no rights and no power, and are actively involved in depriving others of their homes/power as well.
posted by earl_of_grey at 6:51 AM on September 22, 2020 [14 favorites]
Startups like this seem to reinforce the notion -- to me, at least -- that those in the highest income brackets (entrepreneurs/capitalists/landlords) are basically pitting those with lower incomes against each other, to reinforce their power structures.
Apologies for being the resident socialist crank; although I suspect I'm in largely sympathetic company. I've been told I relate everything back to capitalism being evil, but I can't get around what seems like mounting evidence that that's true. And gig work (especially this) seems like the most extreme manifestation of capitalism, where those running the company have all the power and profit and the workers have no rights and no power, and are actively involved in depriving others of their homes/power as well.
posted by earl_of_grey at 6:51 AM on September 22, 2020 [14 favorites]
"Francisco Muñez, a mover for a landlord in Houston, cries as he empties an elderly woman's apartment. 'Maybe today it's her. Tomorrow it's me'"
Can we be any more awful to people?
posted by BekahVee at 7:10 AM on September 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Can we be any more awful to people?
posted by BekahVee at 7:10 AM on September 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Apologies for being the resident socialist crank
There's dozens of us!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:35 AM on September 22, 2020 [7 favorites]
There's dozens of us!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:35 AM on September 22, 2020 [7 favorites]
Landlords calling themselves capitalists is the greatest trick the devil ever pulled, well, along with medicine and higher ed establishing their guilded positions in our economy.
Landlords got liquidated first in several 20th century socialist revolutions because they are the most egregious rent-takers in any market economy, literally and technically.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:21 AM on September 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Landlords got liquidated first in several 20th century socialist revolutions because they are the most egregious rent-takers in any market economy, literally and technically.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:21 AM on September 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yes, because everyone on this thread is an idiot who has never had to serve someone, been served with legal papers, or seen a TV show involving lawyers.
It's becoming increasing clear this is the case.
Ok everyone, you are right. Responding to a Craigslist ad for a lead generating service with a funny name that has "gig economy" somewhere in its business plane is SO MUCH DIFFERENT than responding to a Craigslist ad for a lead generating service without a funny name that doesn't have "gig economy" in it's business plan (because it predates that concept by a number of decades).
When the exact same person staples that eviction letter onto your front door and then stands back to take a picture, it somehow matters whether or not the service that put him/her in contact with the Real Estate attorney had too few vowels in its name.
posted by sideshow at 8:49 AM on September 22, 2020
It's becoming increasing clear this is the case.
Ok everyone, you are right. Responding to a Craigslist ad for a lead generating service with a funny name that has "gig economy" somewhere in its business plane is SO MUCH DIFFERENT than responding to a Craigslist ad for a lead generating service without a funny name that doesn't have "gig economy" in it's business plan (because it predates that concept by a number of decades).
When the exact same person staples that eviction letter onto your front door and then stands back to take a picture, it somehow matters whether or not the service that put him/her in contact with the Real Estate attorney had too few vowels in its name.
posted by sideshow at 8:49 AM on September 22, 2020
It's becoming increasing clear this is the case.
You're talking to a lawyer there, techbro.
posted by ambrosen at 9:24 AM on September 22, 2020
You're talking to a lawyer there, techbro.
posted by ambrosen at 9:24 AM on September 22, 2020
So glad this zero hour bullshit is illegal here with a couple of exceptions.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 9:26 AM on September 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 9:26 AM on September 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
Landlords calling themselves capitalists
I don't think there is a distinction that makes a difference, and I'm not alone (metafilter favorite Matt Bruenig [haha])!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:37 AM on September 22, 2020
I don't think there is a distinction that makes a difference, and I'm not alone (metafilter favorite Matt Bruenig [haha])!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:37 AM on September 22, 2020
Ya know they used to say I'd come to appreciate capitalism the older I got.
Instead I've gone from being a liberal semi-leftish sort of person who thought capitalism was OK but needed restraint to being a genuine leftist who hates capitalism on a visceral level.
I guess Google's "Don't Be Evil" bit doesn't apply to hosting evil apps...
posted by sotonohito at 9:44 AM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
Instead I've gone from being a liberal semi-leftish sort of person who thought capitalism was OK but needed restraint to being a genuine leftist who hates capitalism on a visceral level.
I guess Google's "Don't Be Evil" bit doesn't apply to hosting evil apps...
posted by sotonohito at 9:44 AM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
>I'm not alone
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:48 AM on September 22, 2020
although people do not generally produce land, they do generally produce buildings.yes, that's the trick
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:48 AM on September 22, 2020
I don't know what you're getting at. I get the arguments for not viewing landlords as capitalists, but I don't find them persuasive.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:00 AM on September 22, 2020
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:00 AM on September 22, 2020
It is difficult for me to think of a more Platonic example of capitalists than landlords.
They own capital (in this case land and buildings) they extract money by virtue of ownership of that capital, they contribute nothing, and they are pure economic parasites. What could possibly be a better example of a capitalist?
posted by sotonohito at 10:21 AM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
They own capital (in this case land and buildings) they extract money by virtue of ownership of that capital, they contribute nothing, and they are pure economic parasites. What could possibly be a better example of a capitalist?
posted by sotonohito at 10:21 AM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
The argument is usually something along the lines that they don't actually produce anything and exist purely as extractors thanks to property rights, but I think this relies on an antiquated notion of capital. According to Nitzan and Bichler (whose book I haven't read, but I'm going to get to it), capital is property rights, and I think nowadays it is clear that landlords are just a particular kind of finance capitalist.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:28 AM on September 22, 2020
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:28 AM on September 22, 2020
Workers actually produce things. Capitalists do not, but instead extract "surplus value" from what workers produce. Landlords are the quintessential capitalists.
As I've recommended many times before here on Metafilter, I highly recommend the quick and easy-to-read "Economics for Everyone" for explanations of all of these sort of terms.
posted by eviemath at 2:27 PM on September 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
As I've recommended many times before here on Metafilter, I highly recommend the quick and easy-to-read "Economics for Everyone" for explanations of all of these sort of terms.
posted by eviemath at 2:27 PM on September 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
Workers actually produce things. Capitalists do not, but instead extract "surplus value" from what workers produce.
This is a very orthodox Marxist take but it's unlikely to be convincing to the type of people for whom landlords are not to be considered capitalists. When I say the argument is that landlords don't produce anything, what I mean of course is that landlords don't control any productive capital, i.e. nothing new comes out of their control over the land they lord.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:57 PM on September 22, 2020
This is a very orthodox Marxist take but it's unlikely to be convincing to the type of people for whom landlords are not to be considered capitalists. When I say the argument is that landlords don't produce anything, what I mean of course is that landlords don't control any productive capital, i.e. nothing new comes out of their control over the land they lord.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:57 PM on September 22, 2020
>They own capital (in this case land and buildings)
That's just it, prior to the Neoclassical school taking over, capital didn't include Land.
When you require capital wealth to be produced by Labor, things shake out a lot clearer IMO.
and nastier
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:32 PM on September 22, 2020
That's just it, prior to the Neoclassical school taking over, capital didn't include Land.
When you require capital wealth to be produced by Labor, things shake out a lot clearer IMO.
and nastier
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:32 PM on September 22, 2020
Whenever I advocate a rent freeze or the like, all I hear are arguments about how landlords work hard at upkeep and management, have mortgages to pay, are mostly just renting rooms or floors in a family homestead, etc. Pity the beleaguered hardworking landlords trapped in the vice of capitalism with the rest of us 99%.
posted by chortly at 4:56 PM on September 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by chortly at 4:56 PM on September 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
You hear that from landlords who as a group are the biggest crybabies the owning class has ever seen. If it's so hard, get out of the game, nobody forced you to be a landlord, but all they ever do is moan about everything.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:21 PM on September 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:21 PM on September 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Is the user name 'Bob Arctor' taken yet? if not, I'm in!
posted by Insert Clever Name Here
I just want to admire this.
posted by rochrobbb at 5:25 PM on September 22, 2020
posted by Insert Clever Name Here
I just want to admire this.
posted by rochrobbb at 5:25 PM on September 22, 2020
Accordingly, Germany’s capital is taking extreme measures to stay (relatively) affordable and not go the way of San Francisco or London. Beginning in early 2020, Berlin’s left-leaning government will freeze rents for five years. Landlords will be required to show new tenants the most recent rental contracts to prove they aren’t jacking up prices. They’ll also have to follow new rent-cap rules, which for many landlords could mean lowering rents by as much as 40%. Those who don’t comply will be hit with fines as high as €500,000 ($553,000) for each violation.
Even more radically, tenant groups and thousands of activists are demanding that large corporate landlords be expelled from the city altogether, their property expropriated. The goal is to get the government to buy back roughly 250,000 properties—almost one-eighth of Berlin’s housing stock—and turn them into public housing. And while the move may sound far-fetched, it’s won support from anywhere from 29% to 54% of Berliners, according to various polls. Two of the city’s three ruling political parties have even endorsed a nonbinding public referendum on whether to force big landlords to sell their real estate to the government.
We can also look at how Austria handles the same issues.
Stable, affordable housing is a win-win for the real economy, at the expense of forcing the ultra wealthy to do something besides gobble up everything in sight and double the price.
posted by nicoffeine at 5:50 PM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
Even more radically, tenant groups and thousands of activists are demanding that large corporate landlords be expelled from the city altogether, their property expropriated. The goal is to get the government to buy back roughly 250,000 properties—almost one-eighth of Berlin’s housing stock—and turn them into public housing. And while the move may sound far-fetched, it’s won support from anywhere from 29% to 54% of Berliners, according to various polls. Two of the city’s three ruling political parties have even endorsed a nonbinding public referendum on whether to force big landlords to sell their real estate to the government.
We can also look at how Austria handles the same issues.
Stable, affordable housing is a win-win for the real economy, at the expense of forcing the ultra wealthy to do something besides gobble up everything in sight and double the price.
posted by nicoffeine at 5:50 PM on September 22, 2020 [8 favorites]
When the exact same person staples that eviction letter onto your front door and then stands back to take a picture, it somehow matters whether or not the service that put him/her in contact with the Real Estate attorney had too few vowels in its name.
In addition to not understanding the vowels thing, I fundamentally don't understand why you're not understanding that this might be a problem, can you elaborate? I feel like there's been plenty of explanation why it might be a problem.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:55 PM on September 22, 2020
In addition to not understanding the vowels thing, I fundamentally don't understand why you're not understanding that this might be a problem, can you elaborate? I feel like there's been plenty of explanation why it might be a problem.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:55 PM on September 22, 2020
This is a very orthodox Marxist take
It's a very orthodox economics take, hardly specific to Marxism.
what I mean of course is that landlords don't control any productive capital, i.e. nothing new comes out of their control over the land they lord.
The part where you're ignoring the entire realm of reproductive labor aside, this is different from, say, bankers or other owners of capital how?
posted by eviemath at 9:03 PM on September 22, 2020
It's a very orthodox economics take, hardly specific to Marxism.
what I mean of course is that landlords don't control any productive capital, i.e. nothing new comes out of their control over the land they lord.
The part where you're ignoring the entire realm of reproductive labor aside, this is different from, say, bankers or other owners of capital how?
posted by eviemath at 9:03 PM on September 22, 2020
> I guess Google's "Don't Be Evil" bit doesn't apply to hosting evil apps...
eivvl :P
posted by kliuless at 9:16 PM on September 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
eivvl :P
posted by kliuless at 9:16 PM on September 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
The idea that labor is the source of all value and capitalists siphon off the surplus value of labor is definitely not an "orthodox economics" take. I don't know why you're being hostile, I don't know exactly what you mean by "reproductive labor," and I don't consider landlords different from bankers or other owners of capital, I made that clear. I was trying to represent the point of view of people who do, which point of view I explicitly said I don't subscribe to.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:43 PM on September 22, 2020
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:43 PM on September 22, 2020
There's a difference (or not) to be drawn here between 'capitalist' (defined as you like as anything between 'person who makes use of financial means to create profit' and 'bad person') and 'rentier', which is a more standard description of the kind of economic activity a landlord does—extracting value less from surplus labour, than yield from capital investment made from rights over property. Trying to look for novelty or otherwise of production (if something new is created, by worker or capitalist) is a confusing way of looking at it. The house I live in was built in the 19thC, does my landlord extract value from its long-dead Victorian-era builders? Or do they extract the value from my 'labour' of sheltering under the roof? Or do my neighbours extract value-in-place by virtue of voting against higher density development, and preventing new productive building? Clearly thinking of production's the wrong approach.
It's helpful to compare land yield to the kinds of property rights other typical rentiers make use of, for instance, music. There's certainly surplus labour of the musicians who wrote a pop song, the producers who recorded it, the distributors who marketed it, the DJs who played it, all extracted by a record company and that company's creditors, but the value of the rights decades later depend on the song's continuing fashion: there's far more real value in the rights to The Beatles and Rolling Stones than in equally hard-working, but forgotten, bands none of us have ever heard of. And most importantly the rights are legal fictions created by context: anyone can re-produce public domain music, if it's old or traditional enough, for nothing.
The difference where housing comes in is that hit songs are potentially infinite, whereas houses are not, and that everyone needs a house to live in in a physical way that they can't really be forced to pay for music, and the State has a much more active role in policing property rights to human shelter as to Gimme Shelter.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:32 PM on September 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's helpful to compare land yield to the kinds of property rights other typical rentiers make use of, for instance, music. There's certainly surplus labour of the musicians who wrote a pop song, the producers who recorded it, the distributors who marketed it, the DJs who played it, all extracted by a record company and that company's creditors, but the value of the rights decades later depend on the song's continuing fashion: there's far more real value in the rights to The Beatles and Rolling Stones than in equally hard-working, but forgotten, bands none of us have ever heard of. And most importantly the rights are legal fictions created by context: anyone can re-produce public domain music, if it's old or traditional enough, for nothing.
The difference where housing comes in is that hit songs are potentially infinite, whereas houses are not, and that everyone needs a house to live in in a physical way that they can't really be forced to pay for music, and the State has a much more active role in policing property rights to human shelter as to Gimme Shelter.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:32 PM on September 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
As with most VC-invented “independent contractor” gigs, the contractor is taking on all of the risk.
If this company actually takes off rather than being a “collect $35 and screw the contractor” enterprise, some contractor is going to be tasked with moving out someone armed who does not wish to be moved out.
Repo men (I’ve known some) are aware of the risks they take and the experienced ones have techniques to minimize those risks. Johnny Lookingforwork likely has no idea what the potential downsides of this gig could be.
I believe, but cannot prove, that the company will not indemnify their “independent contractor”.
posted by Warren Terra at 1:48 AM on September 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
If this company actually takes off rather than being a “collect $35 and screw the contractor” enterprise, some contractor is going to be tasked with moving out someone armed who does not wish to be moved out.
Repo men (I’ve known some) are aware of the risks they take and the experienced ones have techniques to minimize those risks. Johnny Lookingforwork likely has no idea what the potential downsides of this gig could be.
I believe, but cannot prove, that the company will not indemnify their “independent contractor”.
posted by Warren Terra at 1:48 AM on September 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm sure experienced repomen have especially graphic and dangerous tales to tell, with specific lessons, but does it really take experience for Johnny Lookingforwork to know that people don't take kindly to having their stuff taken, or being kicked out of their home? In the article joeyh linked from before this particular app, Johnny Lookingforwork is homeless or under-housed and basically has no other options.
October rent is due soon and there was never a second stimulus check and someone has hungry mouths to feed and isn't allowed to drive for Uber/Lyft (possibly for standing up for themselves to abusive riders). Society's got us fighting for smaller and smaller scraps off the billionaire's table. It's not a stretch to imagine the C-suite of this company taking bets on if a repo/eviction will get physical, and if evicted or evictee will win the confrontation, as a sideshow attraction at Travis Kalanick's next party. If Johnny Lookingforwork wins, they level up and get sent on harder and harder repo missions. The winning prize is 1 share in the company. (Awarded to the exec that correctly bet on the outcome, duh. Johnny isn't getting anything other than the $35 out of this. Definitely not healthcare.)
Until every square mile of land looks like the Kowloon Walled City, or is being used for crops, there's a googol more homes that can be built. That capitalism stands in our way between housing (and feeding) everybody is an embarrassment to humanity and the hippies figured that out in the 70's. That's not to say communes (or the 70's) were perfect, far from it, but we've given up on anything resembling that because I've been brainwashed into believing that I need to have a bigger/faster TV/car/house/yacht, that poor people should be judged for having a big TV, and immigrants are why I can't have a faster car, rather than the capitalists at the top.
posted by fragmede at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
October rent is due soon and there was never a second stimulus check and someone has hungry mouths to feed and isn't allowed to drive for Uber/Lyft (possibly for standing up for themselves to abusive riders). Society's got us fighting for smaller and smaller scraps off the billionaire's table. It's not a stretch to imagine the C-suite of this company taking bets on if a repo/eviction will get physical, and if evicted or evictee will win the confrontation, as a sideshow attraction at Travis Kalanick's next party. If Johnny Lookingforwork wins, they level up and get sent on harder and harder repo missions. The winning prize is 1 share in the company. (Awarded to the exec that correctly bet on the outcome, duh. Johnny isn't getting anything other than the $35 out of this. Definitely not healthcare.)
Until every square mile of land looks like the Kowloon Walled City, or is being used for crops, there's a googol more homes that can be built. That capitalism stands in our way between housing (and feeding) everybody is an embarrassment to humanity and the hippies figured that out in the 70's. That's not to say communes (or the 70's) were perfect, far from it, but we've given up on anything resembling that because I've been brainwashed into believing that I need to have a bigger/faster TV/car/house/yacht, that poor people should be judged for having a big TV, and immigrants are why I can't have a faster car, rather than the capitalists at the top.
posted by fragmede at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I thought that's what you meant by "reproductive labor," but I have no idea what it has to do with whether or not someone is a capitalist.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:13 PM on September 24, 2020
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:13 PM on September 24, 2020
It seems my one star review has been reinstated, with no effort on my part. Yay?!
posted by eotvos at 6:38 AM on September 25, 2020
posted by eotvos at 6:38 AM on September 25, 2020
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posted by Monochrome at 6:05 PM on September 21, 2020 [30 favorites]