Trump Tests Positive for the Coronavirus
October 2, 2020 2:36 AM   Subscribe

 
@carolecadwalla on Twitter:

A reminder to all Americans that the net effect of our prime minister catching COVID-19 was that it prompted a surge of patriotic support. From which he emerged with renewed popularity. Which enabled him to tear up key functions of the state

It also silenced press & parliament at key moment in crisis from asking critical questions. And when it was announced he was moving to intensive care was moment of national shock. Everything about this is rocket fuel for ‘patriotism’
posted by popcassady at 2:40 AM on October 2 [89 favorites]


From another Guardian article:
...a 74-year-old person who catches the disease has a 1 in 25 risk of death...

Dixon said mild symptoms at onset were not an indicator that someone would avoid more severe disease. He said it was around the one-week mark where people either seemed to improve or decline rapidly.

“We tend to see people with very mild symptoms for the first week, that is typical, and in the second week typically people either develop pneumonia or not,” he said.

“If you see someone who just got it, they’ve just tested positive, typically they look well. But we would tell those patients to isolate at home and to come to hospital if they feel short of breath. Because in that second week of the virus, people can go from looking very good to pretty rotten even over just 24 to 48 hours.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:45 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


Though it's worth noting, in response to Carole Cadwalla's assertion Matt Singh points out that polling doesn't reflect this popular narrative.
posted by tomp at 2:47 AM on October 2 [58 favorites]


It is what it is.
posted by KillaSeal at 2:50 AM on October 2 [109 favorites]


Given the reports from his previous medical checkups, I would want confirmation from a trusted third party. While he certainly could have it, just saying he has it takes a lot of oxygen away from his campaign woes.

No decent person would fake having a serious illness for personal gain, but if there’s one guy who hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt, it’s him.
posted by cardboard at 2:51 AM on October 2 [121 favorites]




The logic by which only the dumbest possible outcome is possible dictates that Joe Biden will also get it and they will both be unconscious and intubated on election day like a pair of geriatric Lenny Belardos, beautiful motionless boys, side by side and holding hands while nation prays. But for what?
posted by atrazine at 2:58 AM on October 2 [79 favorites]


As much as I am momentarily enjoying the schadenfreude for the moment, it really does throw such a crazy wrench into the works... Even if he magically recovers in a few days it is going to have more effect than Woodward’s interviews that everyone made a think about.

2020 keeps on giving in many, many strange horrible ways...
posted by rambling wanderlust at 3:01 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Sheesh, not even a competent germaphobe.
posted by Paragon at 3:04 AM on October 2 [89 favorites]


More like coronavirus has tested positive for Donald Trump.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 3:08 AM on October 2 [257 favorites]


He can't die, that would leave the fascism question unanswered. He has to to be voted out in an election, or at the very least removed in a coup after trying to nuke Glasgow, for the US to move forwards.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:09 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


I just had a day-mare where either Trump is lying about having COVID or he does have it and recovers, but it helps him tremendously because he goes around saying "LOOK! The DOW dropped 400 points the second they thought I was going away! The economy needs me!" and a bunch of dum dums believe him.
posted by WeekendJen at 3:11 AM on October 2 [18 favorites]


yeah nah somehow I doubt this is a repeat of the bone spurs thing
posted by um at 3:13 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


This is how bad things have gotten for me. When I heard this, I immediately assumed this was a ploy for him to loudly and publicly appear to take a vaccine that miraculously works and is available to all before the election. And it's from his big buddy Vlad.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:13 AM on October 2 [51 favorites]


DNC Offices: Okay guys! We've been sitting on these Melania tapes since July. Nothing really big on them but they have Melania saying "fuck" in the same sentence as Christmas decorations. Oh? Yeah no she thinks the Christmas decorations are meaningless and wants to focus on the actual news. Yeah, yeah doesn't matter, she said fuck Christmas decorations basically. Well I guess she could come off as sympathetic and she seems to genuinely care about the kids and care for her husband but we're kinda clueless over here, hey she says fuck and Christmas in the same breath. Okay so we'll launch it after the debate stuff dies down CNN is all ready to launch it tonight, perfect timing before the weekend news cycle. Alright sit back and ... what? Hope Hicks got Covid? She's still around? Oh what, well they test Trump all the time so it'd have to be a super spreader type thing or the latency period of the ... what doesn't he have a 15 minute test? Okay well if he has it we have to smirk while saying we hope it is a false positive. Oh what? Boris Johnson got a boost in popularity? This might humanize Trump? Now? Are you fucking kidding me? He's losing by historic numbers. Well what about Pence and Kamala? Oh man he has to quarantine too! She's the youth! Oh no it is 2016 all over again!
posted by geoff. at 3:16 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


a big relief during this moment is the absence of all those people who pipe up at times like this with sanctimonious finger-wagging about how "even if he's a monster you shouldn't delight in the misfortunes of others, it makes you just as bad as he is". Fuck. All. Of. That.

feel what you need to feel. be as joyful as you want to be and don't be ashamed: you'll never be anywhere remotely as bad as him and his supporters are. I hope he suffers, recovers, loses the election by a historic landslide, and immediately faces prosecution for his crimes.
posted by um at 3:26 AM on October 2 [197 favorites]


I hope recovers so he can serve two full terms. The first in federal prison and then the second in NY state prison.
posted by atrazine at 3:30 AM on October 2 [215 favorites]


If this is actually an October Surprise, perhaps it is being played as a bluff. In this scenario he does not actually have the virus, and 'recovers' swiftly and fully, thereby validating his lackadaisical position with his followers, just in time for voting day.
posted by fairmettle at 3:32 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


I'm imagning part of the speech where he continues to blame Hope's affection for men in uniform. Trump: "And this very tough general, big guy, came up to me, in tears, and said "Sir, you are so magnificent. Thank you for giving us all Hope sir".
posted by srboisvert at 3:38 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]




Matt Singh points out that polling doesn't reflect this popular narrative.

Singh's poll does not necessarily contradict Cadwalladr's assertion. It's a bit misleading of him to suggest so. He shows an opinion poll of political parties, and not the popularity of their respective leaders. These are two separate entities — and questions — and a popular leader can do more to push their agenda, even with a less popular parliamentary government behind them.

Cadwalladr has been persecuted by proxies for her reporting of Russian interference in UK politics, so I'm inclined to take her views seriously when she reports on the public's response to autocrats. Her view also aligns with how family members in the UK responded to Johnson's illness, so for lack of an actual poll on the matter, I'd probably give more weight to her informed opinion.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:40 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Mentioned in other thread - this isn’t a hoax. This is a moral allegory.

He is also a well-known Germaphobe. I hope he is afraid. In many ways this is his worst nightmare. A year ago he thought we would be talking about the unemployment rate.
posted by The Ted at 3:41 AM on October 2 [19 favorites]


Having the person who supposedly gave him the virus be named after one of his predecessor's campaign slogans is a bit on the nose, don't you think?
posted by acb at 3:42 AM on October 2 [60 favorites]


Yesterday was my birthday. Spent it enjoying the peak leaf color with mr kinnakeet. As the full moon rose, I was asked for my birthday wish.

I could not think of much to wish for as we are fortunate, but I did wish “that the pandemic end soon.” Then as an afterthought muttered, “I wish Trump would get sick.” Sort of half-wristslapped myself for having uncharitable thoughts.

You can imagine my reaction this morning.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:48 AM on October 2 [123 favorites]


I really don't care. Do you?
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:52 AM on October 2 [162 favorites]


This is weird. I never felt sympathy for a virus before.
posted by johnofjack at 3:53 AM on October 2 [42 favorites]


The sad part is that, even if Trump really is sick, everything he has done up to day-zero of getting himself infected has still killed hundreds of thousands and will still sicken and kill yet more. Whatever happens, he's fucked up the lives of millions of innocent people. Nothing changes about that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:56 AM on October 2 [49 favorites]


Matt Singh points out that polling doesn't reflect this popular narrative.

Singh's poll does not necessarily contradict Cadwalladr's assertion.


Singh's thread does point out that Johnson and the Tories had a higher approval rating than Labour in the first place. An approval rating well above Trump's best.

So for all that Johnson and Trump are political birds of a feather, I have serious doubts that it's useful to use the UK situation as a predictor for the US now - the initial conditions are too different.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:01 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Singh's poll does not necessarily contradict Cadwalladr's assertion. It's a bit misleading of him to suggest so. He shows an opinion poll of political parties, and not the popularity of their respective leaders. These are two separate entities — and questions — and a popular leader can do more to push their agenda, even with a less popular parliamentary government behind them.

His personal approval was higher on the 13th of April than on the 16th of March but that isn't polled as often as the party data. Note that a lot happened during that time so it's completely impossible to know why this was. The 16th was right after Vallance foolishly used the words "herd immunity" in a press interview and before any lockdown measures were announced, the 13th of April was a few days after critical care bed occupancy peaked and after new hospital admissions in London had peaked.

Certainly people felt genuinely worried in a way that maybe they didn't expect but:
-This was much earlier in the pandemic. As dumb as it was it to go around shaking hands in March, a lot of people were just realising how serious it really was. Obviously a PM should have known better but it's not like he'd spent months minimising it in the face of all the evidence. I'm not sure that Donald Trump will get the same leeway at the point in the pandemic after months and months of denial.
-Boris Johnson is not as deeply nor as widely hated by his political opponents as Donald Trump is. Obviously he's not a suitable person to be Prime Minister but he strikes me more as a flawed and egotistical blunderer who you put in as club social secretary (but not as treasurer) than Donald Trump who is unpleasant on every level.

Cadwalladr has been persecuted by proxies for her reporting of Russian interference in UK politics, so I'm inclined to take her views seriously when she reports on the public's response to autocrats. Her view also aligns with how family members in the UK responded to Johnson's illness, so for lack of an actual poll on the matter, I'd probably give more weight to her informed opinion.

I don't think this makes any sense. She reports on Putin and on attempts by Russia to interfere with British elections and the referendum, therefore... she has some special insight into how the British public reacted to Boris Johnson getting Covid-19?
posted by atrazine at 4:03 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


What both Trump and Johnson do have in common is an apparent belief that sickness is a sign of weakness. It's shameful and unmanly for a strongman to fall ill. I'm not sure that Johnson's confidence and perceived standing has quite recovered from his illness, regardless of his physical recovery.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 4:12 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Johnson's more of a flim-flam man than a strongman. He has the hauteur of the born-to-rule aristocracy, but the difference between him and 45 is that, while his cruelty is mostly a negative, an absence of concern for the “little people” except where instrumentally useful, 45's is a positive, atavistic bloodthirst.

A better analogue to look at might be Bolsonaro. How's he doing with his coronavirus?
posted by acb at 4:17 AM on October 2 [27 favorites]


This kinda throws a wrench in Trump being God's chosen vehicle for the prosperity gospel types. Most of them will have no trouble rationalizing it, but it may make some difference at the margins.
posted by wierdo at 4:19 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Thoughts and prayers, right?
posted by cheshyre at 4:21 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


To elaborate, in my Mom's Southern Baptist church, it was commonly believed, and said out loud to her face despite her illness, that getting sick only happens because God thinks you deserve it.
posted by wierdo at 4:22 AM on October 2 [72 favorites]


If this is actually an October Surprise, perhaps it is being played as a bluff. In this scenario he does not actually have the virus, and 'recovers' swiftly and fully, thereby validating his lackadaisical position with his followers, just in time for voting day.

If this was a conspiracy, and somehow the leakiest white house in history managed to keep it a secret, then it couldn't possibly be Trump's idea or have Trump's approval.

Trump is a textbook narcissist and for those of us who know narcissists he has never once done something surprising. A narcissist wouldn't do this because (a) even catching the virus shows that he is weak, not the Healthiest Man of All Time, and (b) it cuts off his narcissistic supply (the adoration of screaming sycophants) for two weeks.

You'll know it's a bluff if Trump calls the bluff himself in order to get attention in the next two weeks.
posted by mmoncur at 4:22 AM on October 2 [44 favorites]


I'm worried that if Trump is incapacitated, the entire country will be plunged into stability.
posted by yankeefog at 4:22 AM on October 2 [286 favorites]


See, this is why he didn't want his tax returns publicized.
posted by glonous keming at 4:23 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I feel bad for the New York Times, they have five more shocking articles with damning details from Trump's tax returns ready to publish and nobody's going to notice them at the bottom of Page 7.
posted by mmoncur at 4:25 AM on October 2 [38 favorites]


If only he hadn't been tested.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:26 AM on October 2 [92 favorites]


Sooooo when are we getting our reassurance about Biden being negative?
posted by WeekendJen at 4:28 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


I feel relieved for my state. He was all set to come here and have a bunch of rallies, including one in a part of the state that is spiking very badly. I presume those won't be happening now. The COVID-19 Event Risk Assessment Planner tells me that in that part of the state, if you get even ten people in a room together, chances are one of them will be SARS-CoV-2+.

The faith of my youth, now vestigial, tells me I should feel something for our president that I simply can't. I can only have utilitarian thoughts: what outcome stands the best chance of helping my country to extricate itself from the grip of its domestic abuser?
posted by eirias at 4:30 AM on October 2 [36 favorites]


Probably the most accurate reaction: there are so many different factors in play, there's no predicting which way this will go.

Second reaction: I'm reminded of John McCain pulling himself out of the 2008 campaign briefly. I don't think he ever gained ground back from that.

Third reaction: Removing Trump from the day-to-day operations of his campaign might allow marginally competent people, if any are left in his inner circle, to make decisions on his behalf. This might not be good.

Fourth reaction: Return to the first reaction--who the hell knows?
posted by gimonca at 4:31 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Regardless of his subsequent policy response, BoJo appeared after his recovery with a message of being humbled by his experience and grateful to the nation's healthcare workers, with a renewed sense of mission and plucky British optimism in the face of real adversity. You know, like a completely reasonable politician would do.

I'm more than half expecting Trump to fully recover and tell the nation on live TV it was entirely due to his immense personal strength, which is so much stronger than the 200k+ losers who couldn't kick the China virus, and by the way, they would all still be alive if it weren't for Obamacare and its a shame, but probably for the best because survival of the fittest, that's what Darwin said.
posted by voiceofreason at 4:31 AM on October 2 [52 favorites]


A potential complicator here that I don't see anyone talking about is that Johnson seemed to take the coronavirus a lot more seriously after he got it than he was before, so any change in personal approval might well be down to "the blonde dipshit is finally taking things seriously".
posted by Merus at 4:32 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


And I see voiceofreason ninja'd my point, eponysterically.
posted by Merus at 4:33 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


I'm worried that if Trump is incapacitated, the entire country will be plunged into stability.

This is sarcasm, right? 'Cause no one looks at Trump and thinks, "now there's someone who's a real stabilizing force on the US"? Just, it doesn't have the "/hamburger" and this presidency has somewhat broken my sarcasm meter.
posted by eviemath at 4:33 AM on October 2


Oh, never mind. Reading fail.
posted by eviemath at 4:34 AM on October 2 [32 favorites]


Trump Just Delivered the Ultimate October Surprise
posted by robbyrobs at 4:35 AM on October 2




The words “Contracting COVID-19” are redundant.
posted by acb at 4:38 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


As someone who's been living through events in the UK, Cadwalladr's assertion about Johnson's popularity going up after diagnosis didn't and doesn't ring true to me. When he was diagnosed, and especially when he was hospitalized, it was a bit of an "oh, shit" moment, and we all had "what if he dies" thoughts, but generally people didn't wish it on him—we saw nothing like the dark humour that's all over Twitter right now. But that didn't mean that everyone was suddenly going to fall in love with his policies and general Boris-ness. Anyone making patriotic "Boris Will Fight Covid on the Beaches" noises would have been one of his supporters anyway.
posted by rory at 4:41 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


The words “Contracting COVID-19” are redundant.

COVID-19 is going to find out he never pays his contractors.
posted by gimonca at 4:42 AM on October 2 [94 favorites]


I have to confess I'm curious to see the spin that "QAnon" puts on this.
posted by Slothrup at 4:51 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Johnson's more of a flim-flam man than a strongman. He has the hauteur of the born-to-rule aristocracy, but the difference between him and 45 is that, while his cruelty is a purely negative absence of concern for the “little people” except where instrumentally useful, 45's is a positive, atavistic bloodthirst.

This is a common perception but it is not quite right. Unlike David Cameron, Boris Johnson is not born to rule. I wish I could find it because it was such an accurate description of class micro-structure but years ago I read an opinion piece on the difference between the relative class positions of Clegg (remember that guy?), Cameron, and Johnson.

David Cameron, who went to Eton and paid full fees, sits right at the very top of the upper middle class where it blends into the lower reaches of the aristocracy. Everything about him, his easy smoothness, his unbreakable self confidence, his deep sense that he should be in charge comes from that background.

It is significant that Johnson went to Eton on a scholarship (don't think that the other boys won't have known that), that his father was an MEP (not quite the thing). He has always been desperate to be the centre of attention, to be liked, to be seen to be a certain kind of person. Can you really imagine David Cameron (who got a first) being upset if he'd gotten a 2:1 as Johnson did? I can't. Boris Johnson is an act, he plays a parody of an English aristocrat which is a heightened version of boys he went to school with and whose ease and genuine pedigree he desperately wants for himself.

Clegg sits a little bit outside the conventional English class system because of his European ancestry, his multilingualism, his fundamentally internationalist outlook. Of course he now works for Facebook.

I don't doubt that Cameron and Johnson both have a sort of disdain for "little people" but in Cameron's case it is a sort of vaguely curious paternalism, like he doesn't quite understand what these people are thinking but of course you have to be polite and look out for their best interests. Johnson has a much more active desire to be loved by as many people as possible. I also agree that Trump's attitude is more actively cruel and blood thirsty.
posted by atrazine at 4:51 AM on October 2 [46 favorites]


They're both going to get better, he's going to insist it proves he's strong and the virus isn't a big deal, and then it will come out in a year that he was on the ropes and nearly died and hid it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:01 AM on October 2 [16 favorites]


I truly hope he recovers so he can experience all the horrible effects of covid that he has denied that others are experiencing. Here's hoping that his remaining years are bleak and painful.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:05 AM on October 2 [42 favorites]


BRB, gotta sacrifice a third chicken, this one for Mike Pence.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:05 AM on October 2 [60 favorites]


Looks like the Pences tested negative, so at least the country isn’t going to be a complete cluster fuck over the weekend.
posted by sideshow at 5:11 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Looks like the Pences tested negative, so at least the country isn’t going to be a complete cluster fuck over the weekend.

Wellll...Remember, the guy rules by tweet. Isolation≠Out of the loop. If anything, this will just make him double-down on the royal edicts and proclamations, just to make sure everyone knows he's still in command. So, I'd look for the weekend to be a cluster-cluster-fuck.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:15 AM on October 2 [16 favorites]


To add: Schadenfreude is fun at all, but it does none of us any good if the first two of rungs of our country’s leadership go onto ventilators leading up to election night. You think the QAnon crazies are insane now, wait until President Pelolsi gets sworn in on like Nov 1st.
posted by sideshow at 5:17 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


I just hope he doesn't Karma Houdini his way out of this one and never ever have one symptom and be perfectly fine forever. Which I am absolutely expecting the way 2020 is going.

Though it is heartening that they were forced to admit this, because you know they never would have had they had any ability to hide it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:17 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


I mean more of the actual civil war sort of cluster fuck. Not the usual “mean tweets” form we are used to.
posted by sideshow at 5:18 AM on October 2


I didn't watch the debate. Did Trump and Biden shake hands?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:19 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Looks like the Pences tested negative, so at least the country isn’t going to be a complete cluster fuck over the weekend.

But it can take up to 14 days after exposure to test positive, right? There's still time for a complete cluster fuck.
posted by carolr at 5:20 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I didn't watch the debate. Did Trump and Biden shake hands?

No.
posted by valkane at 5:20 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


I read "Trump contracted coronavirus" and my first thought was "what kind of kickbacks did it offer him"

deep breaths, deep breaths, get the poison out
posted by phooky at 5:22 AM on October 2 [33 favorites]


There was a lot of shouting and spitting though right? 😷
posted by Braeburn at 5:22 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


It's like the writers knew this fuckkking shitshow wouldn't get renewed another season and are just blowing everything up for the finale.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:22 AM on October 2 [54 favorites]


There was a lot of shouting and spitting though right? 😷

Like two llamas at a blowjob competition.
posted by atrazine at 5:31 AM on October 2 [64 favorites]


So, this raises a question: What if a presidential candidate dies before the election? What are the possible scenarios?
posted by LSK at 5:32 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I wonder if he was still taking the prophylactic hydroxychloroquine he talked about back in April and May? I think one of the more ironic things about this situation is that in 2016 and this election, Trump and his followers made a big deal about the supposed poor health of his opponent, while at the same time saying as little as possible about his own health (other than that he is apparently the healthiest person who has ever lived.). Now for the next two weeks or so, his health will be dominating the news.
posted by TedW at 5:33 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


If it results in the cancellation of further debates, my digestion benefits, but unfortunately so does the guy who made obvious his inability to do anything but bellow and interrupt.
posted by homerica at 5:38 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


If it results in the cancellation of further debates, my digestion benefits, but unfortunately so does the guy who made obvious his inability to do anything but bellow and interrupt.

Zoom CEO gets on the phone with both campaign chiefs to pitch an idea...
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


I'll believe it when they jam a ventilator down his throat, and maybe not even then. He just wants to get out of the remaining debates.
posted by lordrunningclam at 5:42 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


an announcement which is bound to throw the Presidential race into a state of grave uncertainty, if not chaos.

As if "grave uncertainty" wasn't the entire theme of this race from before day 1.
posted by Foosnark at 5:42 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


man fuck em all. can't even make myself care if it's real or they're lying, they just need to shut the hell up, man.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:43 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


It looks like 16 members of congress have tested positive. All are apparently recovering. Two of them (Mike Kelly and Raul Grijalva) are roughly Trump’s age.
posted by lazugod at 5:44 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


When Hope Hicks tested positive for COVID-19 on Thursday morning, the White House should have notified those she had been in contact with, and Trump should have quarantined himself. Instead they tried to keep it a secret, and Trump went to an indoor fundraiser in New Jersey, and didn’t wear a mask. Now he has tested positive. That is how little Donald Trump cares about the lives of other human beings, even those who give him money.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:44 AM on October 2 [161 favorites]


...to be clear, I mean tested positive this year. No relation to the current event.
posted by lazugod at 5:45 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I’m not normally one to revel in another’s misfortune, but I told my wife months ago that if this pandemic ends without that fucker ever getting sick there was no justice in the world.

This is honestly my first real moment of hope and joy in a long time. I’m going to have a good day I believe.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:47 AM on October 2 [40 favorites]


Slothrup, wait no longer. They think it's all part of the plan.
posted by Naberius at 5:47 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Sooooo torn. I would want him to die immediately, if it wasn't for the delicious possibility of seeing him go down to electoral defeat, removal from office, and a humiliating trial. It would be very appropriate if he died of the same thing he used to murder over 200K of his fellow citizens.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 5:50 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Whew, mixed feelings, surprisingly.

Hearing analysts and articles saying things like, "If he can get it, anyone can!" ... well, yeah, if you don't actually treat it like a highly contagious disease and don't wear a mask and say Biden is a dork for wearing one and hold rallies to stoke your ego. Sure. If you act like a fool and are supremely ignorant, sure.

The doctor who announced this is the same who gave him the go for hydroxychloroquine. T has gotten so good at lying about things and throwing up smokescreens that even something like this can't be necessarily seen as a completely true thing - especially with a disastrous debate, the Times tax reports, the slowing "recovery", the lack of stimulus package, and bad polls all with bad news for him. He's been cornered for weeks, months. Withdrawing feels like a natural strategy for someone of his ilk.

So we're in yet another layer of "who knows how things will go" and another layer of uncertainty tossed into the things that we rely on in our lives and in our society to feel stable and, to a degree, safe. If we hadn't been juggling hundreds of other things up until this point, it would be quite different. Trump could recover. Trump could say he recovers, go out, and infect more people. Trump could debate via satellite. Trump could not debate at all and complain about it. He could tweet policies for the next two weeks that upend everything. He could turn things over to Pence. He could die. He could become fully incapacitated by Election Day. He could be fine.

In the meantime, we all continue to suffer.
posted by hijinx at 5:51 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


At this point I don't care how it's done as long as he gets out of office and millions don't keep dying specifically because of his behavior.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:51 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


***Trepidatiously opens Flap #2 of my October Surprise Advent Calendar***
posted by reclusive_thousandaire at 5:53 AM on October 2 [254 favorites]


If he dies and fails to reemerge, completely unharmed, with a basket of Luciferian globalist child-slavers' heads as trophies, the narrative might bifurcate. Some will claim that Soros had him poisoned, and undoubtedly start taking matters into their own hands. To others, he might become something like King Arthur or the Shi'ites Hidden Imam: watching, biding his time and ready to return when the moment is right. A hundred years on, huckster cult leaders may claim to be the current manifestation of Donald Trump.
posted by acb at 5:54 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


I have no hope of this doing anything other than guaranteeing him another four years, nothing sticks to him.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:55 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Maybe this will convince some MAGA-heads that coronavirus is real. And, being even more hopeful, maybe it will help cancel some super-spreader events. (at least it will cancel some of his immediately forthcoming rallies)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:55 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


(Stolen from reddit comments)

He's in several high risk groups, elderly, obese, low income.

I wonder why they suspected COVID? He's always lacked taste.
posted by smcameron at 5:56 AM on October 2 [47 favorites]


Nah. His supporters are cooking up a new conspiracy about it right now.
posted by cazoo at 5:57 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


It's kind of remarkable that he's getting it only now.

I hope that if one debate gets cancelled, they'll let the one that's left be a town-hall format (what the second debate, which will be either cancelled or postponed, was supposed to be).

I'm full of misgivings about all the possible ways this will be spun, but I still can't help feeling schadenfreude. May he and his enablers get to actually feel, in their bodies, a little piece of what they've made others go through.
posted by trig at 6:00 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Nah. His supporters are cooking up a new conspiracy about it right now.

His supporters? No, at the moment, his enemies are doing all the legwork ginning up conspiracy theories. His dullard supporters can just steal the best ones once his far more creative enemies are done.
posted by davros42 at 6:03 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Not sure I believe trump has covid. Awfully convenient excuse for no more debates and shutting him up until the election. And he can emerge saying I’m fine, the virus is just a bad cold, no biggie blah blah blah
posted by robbyrobs at 6:03 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


An anagram of

POTUS, Trump Has Covid

is

Sociopath Drums Up TV
posted by lalochezia at 6:05 AM on October 2 [52 favorites]


Has biden tested negative since the debate?
posted by Chrysopoeia at 6:05 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


This doesn’t feel like the sort of lie he is constantly compelled to be telling because it is not immediately ego-gratifying but it does amuse me to imagine him making feeble fake coughs like Dereck Zoolander does after he goes in a coal mine for thirty seconds and thinks he caught black lung.
posted by aubilenon at 6:05 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


This actually made me forget about the Twins miserable performance in the playoffs for a bit. Thanks, Corona!

I have to imagine that, as a germphobe, he's probably stressed the fuck out even if he doesn't have a strong case of it. I feel bad for his doctors. He's got to be the worst patient in the world.

He was also recently in Minnesota schmoozing with our fine state's biggest jerks (Gazelka, Lewis, etc). I hope they're all consumed with worry.
posted by Gray Duck at 6:06 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


I would call it a karmic what-goes-around-comes-around but it’s so, so very dangerous for the nation and for the election for our unhealthy President to die while ballots are being cast. Goodness knows what QAnon et al. will do with it. It is going around and coming around on all of us.

This stupid, stupid man.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:08 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


Well, that was disappointing.
posted by Slothrup at 6:09 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


when I saw this news this morning, MeFi was the first place I came. Thanks all and although I'm not a big fan of schadenfreude HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:11 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]




I'm half-expecting angry tweets from him about how they're refusing to give him hydroxychloroquine.
posted by NMcCoy at 6:11 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


I am hopeful, but between Bolsonaro's recovery and Kissinger's seemingly eternal life, evil people never actually get what they deserve.
posted by Ouverture at 6:12 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


So, the bad news is that he's probably going to be fine. He and the people around him are tested regularly so this was caught early. He'll be getting the best medical care, presumably including convalescent plasma and other treatments. Chances are good that he'll make a full recovery with minimal symptoms. I'd hold some schadenfreude in reserve until he's on a ventilator.

But the frequent, widespread testing of himself and his close associates is something he has prevented and undermined in the general population. Everyone should be keeping in mind that the factors he has in his favor are things he has worked to deny the general public. We should remind everyone of this loudly and frequently even before he recovers.
posted by Reverend John at 6:12 AM on October 2 [55 favorites]


So apparently at the debate the Trumps all came into the venue in facemasks and promptly whipped the masks off and left them off for the duration of the shitshow. The beaming freshfaced first lady congratulating her husband at the conclusion contrasted beautifully with wee sleekit timorous nonsupermodel Jill Biden cowering behind her mask. I've heard and heard and heard this morning about the contact tracing strategy for Trump; is anybody thinking about Melania and the rest of his maskless entourage?
posted by Don Pepino at 6:12 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Has biden tested negative since the debate?

From the NYT: As of Friday morning, Mr. Biden, 77, was expected to be tested later in the day, according to someone familiar with his plans.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:12 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Here’s what I don’t want to happen: Trump gets a m ild case, recovers quickly, and doubles down on “Coronavirus is a hoax!” Then, he guts whatever meager measures the feds are undertaking and convinces red state governors to do the same. Then, numbers explode just as he’s contesting election results, and he gets re-appointed through Supreme Court fuckery.

Rather, I want him to get sick. Like, “I wish I would die” sick. Only to recover in time to decisively lose the election and be forced to spend the rest of his life dealing with criminal prosecutions and the inexorable withering of his personal fortune.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:13 AM on October 2 [67 favorites]


Wow, Trump's announcement tweet ends with the word TOGETHER = TO GET HER = he's saying Hillary's going to be arrested any minute now. QAnon believers never disappoint.
posted by Epixonti at 6:13 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


He doesn't have a personal fortune; he has 9-figure debts coming due to some very nasty people. A supermax cell may well be the safest place for him.
posted by acb at 6:15 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I'll believe it when they jam a ventilator down his throat, and maybe not even then. He just wants to get out of the remaining debates

Not sure I believe trump has covid. Awfully convenient excuse for no more debates and shutting him up until the election.

*Sigh.* C'mon, folks.

Yes, Trump lies a lot about everything all the time. But his lies are always always always in service to his massive narcissistic ego. So in the first place it would be far more likely that he would deny having it no matter what, because he can't appear weak.

If he was faking it for some nefarious reason, he would be holding a press conference RIGHT FUCKING NOW at 9 am EST, bravely hacking and coughing and sniffling his way through a statement that no matter his health he would be heroically soldiering on with Making America Great and preventing the suburbs from being taken over by Black people and fixing Obamacare.

The fact that this was announced AT ONE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING by a memo to the press from his physician is a sign that this is real and whatever few semi-responsible semi-adults remain in this administration went, "oh fuck. We have a real problem here."
posted by soundguy99 at 6:16 AM on October 2 [103 favorites]


Random thoughts/anxieties about this:

1) Mike Pence or really any other Republican is more than capable of continuing the decades long Republican scheme of packing the courts with conservative ideolouges and passing laws aimed at voter suppression and union busting.
2) Mike Pence or any other Republican might be more likely to listen to the GOP foreign policy hawks who want to start WWIII and are currently the "never Trump Republicans".
3) Trump will get better medical care than 99.999 percent of the people on this planet, so he'll probably be fine, unlike many Americans in our deeply unequal and racist two-tier healthcare system that even the proposed Democrat reforms won't ameliorate.
4) If Trump survives, true believer/MAGA/prosperity gospel types will take it as confirmation Trump is chosen by god and/or the coronavirus is a hoax/not serious
5) Biden and Trump expelled a lot of hot air at each other during the debate. Was Biden tested?
6) I don't like the prospects of a Harris versus Pence race.
posted by eagles123 at 6:16 AM on October 2 [16 favorites]


The way I read it that makes COVID the ONLY topic that will be mentioned together with his name for the next 2 weeks, which is not what he wants. Unless it's a fake out and he pretends to have a miraculous 'cure', I guess.
posted by signal at 6:17 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


To try and be as calm as possible about this - while there are many stranger, more unsettling scenarios, it seems to me that the most likely outcome is that Trump may become ill but will almost certainly pull through. Even though he's at risk, the raw numbers are still on his side, especially considering his access to top tier medical care. This is a good thing. A President dying or becoming incapacitated in office - and the ensuing fear, conspiracy, and unrest - would bring an additional level of uncertainty and chaos into an already volatile election. That is the last thing anyone in this country needs. We should all be hoping this passes quickly - not because we want to stake out the moral high ground, but because what is good for the President right now is good for the country as a whole.

In terms of karma, it has already been reaped. It is bad for a Presidential candidate not to be able to campaign in the final two weeks before election day; there's no way that getting out of the debates, or 'changing the narrative' can offset that blow. Mostly, now, I'm just hoping that the Bidens and other people in high level political circles (Pelosi, even Pence) remain negative. We need a relatively smooth election and a peaceful transfer of power, with a minimum of chaos. Any further karmic retribution can wait until after election day.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 6:19 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


"This is critical. The White House didn’t disclose this. Jennifer Jacobs got the story that Hicks had covid, something the White House had apparently known since the previous day. That put all eyes on the President." -- Josh Marshall on twitter.
posted by valkane at 6:20 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


Can he use one of those little oxygen wheelie carts in his cell at ADX Florence? Or does that stay in the guard shack, and he has a really long line running down the hall to his mask?
posted by wenestvedt at 6:20 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


From CNN
Trump campaign did not alert Biden campaign of possible exposure

From The HIll
Biden to get tested Friday morning following Trump's positive test

---
The Hill report is timestamped 8:21 AM and I couldn't find any later reports. fingers crossed.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:22 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Easy solution to the “rule by tweet” thing: put him and Melania in quarantine, just “accidentally” remove all the cell phone chargers from the residence. About five hours in, no more tweets.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:23 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I just had a day-mare where either Trump is lying about having COVID or he does have it and recovers, but it helps him tremendously because he goes around saying "LOOK! The DOW dropped 400 points the second they thought I was going away! The economy needs me!" and a bunch of dum dums believe him.


Welcome to Brazil. That's basically what happened.
posted by ocschwar at 6:24 AM on October 2 [18 favorites]




Jim Acosta on Twitter: WH is doing contact tracing on people who have been in touch with Trump and Hicks over last few days, a WH official said. The official said aides are looking at ways for Trump to be out in front of cameras today.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:29 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Maggie Haberman NYT BREAKING - Ronna McDaniel, the RNC chairwoman, tested positive for the coronavirus on Wednesday, multiple sources say. She has mild symptoms. She was last with POTUS last Friday and has been in Michigan since then.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:30 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]




I wonder if, at this point, he's still in control of his own medical care? What happens in this case, can he choose to take hydroxychloroquine or do various executive branch people/the secret service insist on standards of care?

If he gets really bad, does he get first dibs on semi-experimental treatments (mAb therapies)?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:32 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Trump blames cops and soldiers for Hope Hicks infection:

"Ms. Hicks also accompanied Mr. Trump to the first presidential debate against former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., the Democratic nominee, on Tuesday in Ohio. Attendance at the event was significantly scaled back to prevent the spread of the coronavirus; people familiar with the planning said that Mr. Trump had wanted people in the audience.

Speaking to Mr. Hannity, Mr. Trump appeared to blame soldiers and law enforcement officials who he said wanted to give her hugs and thank her for her work at the White House.

“She’s a very warm person,” the president said. “When soldiers and law enforcement come up to her,” he said, she does not want to reject their entreaties." -- NYT
posted by valkane at 6:33 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Right now I don’t give a fuck about strategy or decorum or anything else. I just hope he fucking suffers.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:35 AM on October 2 [41 favorites]


“She’s a very warm person,” the president said. “When soldiers and law enforcement come up to her,” he said, she does not want to reject their entreaties." -- NYT

Donald Trump said "reject their entreaties"? huh. somehow I don't think so
posted by bluesky43 at 6:36 AM on October 2 [60 favorites]


Are we sure it's COVID and not demon sperm?
posted by hydrophonic at 6:36 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


“______________, and a bunch of dum dums believe him” is the story of Donald Trump’s life.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:38 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


I'd just like to live in a world where I don't have to follow bulletins on Donald Trump's health. I'd like a world where Donald Trump's health is something that never crossed my mind at all.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:47 AM on October 2 [49 favorites]


Boris Johnson is 56.
Jair Bolsonaro is 65.
Donald Trump is 74.

Herman Cain was 74.
posted by valkane at 6:49 AM on October 2 [35 favorites]


Here’s why we should hope Trump survives his fight with COVID-19

Survives... yeah, okay. I want him to survive losing the election, survive a really embarrassing criminal trial, and then he can die in prison.

But he needs to not be unscathed. He needs to noticeably, obviously look and sound worse for the wear, unable to claim that it's harmless or pay doctors to lie about how incredibly fit and healthy an ubermensch he is. He needs to become an advocate for people wearing their damn masks and taking precautions. He's probably incapable of feeling shame or regret himself, but he needs to be an object lesson for others.
posted by Foosnark at 6:51 AM on October 2 [57 favorites]


Of all the outcomes, I'd prefer for him to survive with the same long-term symptoms that so many others report. You know, the kind of chronic disease that gets poo-poohed as "all in your head" so often.

I prefer that because, aside from the long-term misery he can take to prison, it may lead the press and his watchers to actually pay attention to the obvious signs we've seen all along -- the sniffling, the incoherence, the memory and cognitive slips, the intermittent lack of coordination -- and evaluate those independently from what they're told by him, the constant stream of bs about how smart and successful he is, about his mental abilities.

But my real concern is with Biden who had to share a stage with the sputtering shouting madman, and I'll be holding my breath for him for a week or two.
posted by Dashy at 6:59 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


Count me on team "this is mostly significant in that it takes him off the campaign trail for 2 of the remaining 4.5 weeks of a campaign he is already losing". The likeliest course of his illness is that he'll have a cold and he'll get better, but he'll be stuck stewing at home with his phone, yelling at Fox & Friends, desperate for eyeballs. When he gets frustrated, he does and says stupid things. So no, I don't believe in his ability to effectively channel his illness into popular sympathy.
posted by saturday_morning at 6:59 AM on October 2 [17 favorites]


> Herman Cain was 74.

Herman Cain lives on in our hearts. And on twitter.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:59 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


I like my governor's statement; she wishes the Trumps well and then quickly moves on to a positive call for action. That's the smart response.

https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/0,9309,7-387-90487-541151--,00.html

"I want to start by wishing the president and first lady a speedy recovery. COVID-19 is the most dangerous public health crisis America has faced in 100 years. It is still present in our communities. It is still spreading. And people are still dying from it every single day.

"This virus doesn't care if you're rich or poor, a Republican or a Democrat, young or old. No one is immune. Not even the president.

"Here's the good news. We can beat this enemy – but it's going to take every single one of us working together to do it. Right now the most effective weapon we have is pretty simple: it's wearing a mask that covers your nose and mouth. It's washing your hands with soap and water. And maintaining six feet of physical distance from one another.

"I know this is hard. It's hard for our seniors, our parents, our students, our small businesses, and our frontline workers. This has been one of the most challenging experiences any of us has ever faced. But we must not let our guard down. We must remain vigilant. COVID-19 won't just go away because we're tired of the disruptions it has caused to our daily lives, and right now there is no cure.

"My sincere hope is that today's news will serve as a wakeup call to every single American. Right now all 50 states and the federal government have some kind of declared state of emergency. We are all in this together. Let's all do our part. Let's all mask up. And let's get through this together, as one nation."
posted by bfields at 7:01 AM on October 2 [58 favorites]


I like presidents who don't get coronavirus.
posted by amarynth at 7:02 AM on October 2 [130 favorites]


acb > A better analogue to look at might be Bolsonaro. How's he doing with his coronavirus?

Fine, unfortunately:
Political cost of coronavirus? For Brazil’s Bolsonaro, not much. COVID-19 seemed poised to dwindle support for Brazil’s President Bolsonaro, who called the pandemic a “little flu” and refused to wear a mask. Instead, he’s thriving. What’s going on?
Christian Science Monitor; Ana Ionova, Correspondent Rio De Janeiro; 9/10/2020

...[The Brazilian government's] emergency funding – which amounts to a little over half of a minimum monthly salary – has proved a lifeline for the nearly 63.5 million Brazilians who received it after having their livelihoods brought to a halt by the pandemic.

But the program, which launched in April, has also boosted the popularity of President Jair Bolsonaro to new heights. He now has his highest level of approval since taking office in early 2019, despite what many deem a catastrophic handling of the pandemic. The far-right populist is presiding over the world’s third-largest outbreak of COVID-19, which has so far infected more than 4 million Brazilians and claimed the lives of 125,000. Since the start of the pandemic, he has dismissed the threat of the virus, calling it a “little flu,” and lambasted governors who try to shut down states.

Whereas other leaders who have taken a similar approach – from the United States to Mexico – have been punished in the polls for dismissing the pandemic’s severity, Mr. Bolsonaro appears to be weathering the storm and emerging politically unscathed....
posted by cenoxo at 7:02 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


really hope he just has to go on a vent next week and stay there until january, tbh
posted by lazaruslong at 7:02 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Was the cause of death of Trump's brother, who died six weeks ago at the age of 71, ever disclosed?
posted by gwint at 7:04 AM on October 2 [25 favorites]


Random Conspiratorial Thoughts:
  1. The baseline, "It's Trump, so he could well be lying", reaction is well-based in fact.
  2. Trump, being the malignant narcissist that he is, would not lie about having Covid, because unlike avoiding the draft, this he would see this as admitting weakness.
  3. Trump, on the other hand, absolutely would hide a positive Covid test as long as possible and hope it goes away.
  4. A night time memo from the physician doesn't really sound the way a first positive test from an asymptomatic Trump would be presented.
  5. What are the odds he's had no-to-mild symptoms for a week and last night the symptoms flared up to the point where it could no longer be hidden?
  6. Embracing the "he must have gotten it from Hicks, who got it from being too nice to those soldiers and cops" story plays much better than "he infected Hicks and who knows how many others in his immediate circle."
I'm going back and for though, about whether this is really just me being conspiratorial, or simply Occam's Razor.
posted by bcd at 7:07 AM on October 2 [45 favorites]


The next month is going to be pure chaos and no one can predict where this is going. The conspiracy theories and spins are going to be a tidal wave of shit.

All of us play a part now. We are the ones who have to try and bring as many others back down to the ground and remind them of the truth and help focus people on voting him out:

1. We are in a middle of global pandemic that is impacting every country. As much as conspiracies and fantasy role playing is fun, they don’t reflect reality.

2. Tens of millions of people around the world have contracted this. Trump is now in that number. Over a million have died globally, and over 205,000 in the US

3. Common sense methods like mask wearing and social distancing are our best line of defense for the moment, and for the medium term most likely.

4. Leadership is a responsibility, and the POTUS’s lack of leadership here has put us all at risk, including himself and his own family. We need better leadership, and we need to vote Trump out.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:11 AM on October 2 [22 favorites]


CNN says the White House confirms the President has “mild symptoms”. Like Boris Johnson had.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:12 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


When did he last meet with Amy Coney Barrett? Does she have to quarantine herself? Sure would be a shame if those Senate hearings were delayed.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:12 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


I don't know which is worse, President Trump in quarantine and probably ready to tweet all the time or more debates.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:14 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]




From NYT, The president has had what one person described as cold-like symptoms. At a fund-raiser he attended at his golf club at Bedminster, N.J., on Thursday, where one attendee said the president came in contact with about 100 people, he seemed lethargic.

A person briefed on the matter said that Mr. Trump fell asleep at one point on Air Force One on the way back from a rally in Minnesota on Wednesday night.


Fecking idiots. He had "cold-like symptoms" during a pandemic, and they let him out into crowds?

Rank incompetency. Vote him out, at the very least.
posted by Dashy at 7:16 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Just reiterating that the WH did not disclose that Hope Hicks was positive. Jennifer Jacobs, the senior White House reporter for Bloomberg News, broke the story.
posted by gwint at 7:17 AM on October 2 [43 favorites]


Please don't buy into the typical doom and gloom nonsense that everyone seems to do about any sort of Trump related chaos. For one thing Trump is not some mastermind playing 5D chess, yes he's got some low cunning but also has the attention span of a gnat and the impulse control of a ferret on speed. The idea that the Trump campaign could manufacture some sort of fake diagnosis is stupid and would be revealed almost immediately (probably in some comment to reporters or via a Trump tweet because he's that sort of guy). Honestly considering how mask wearing was seen as a sign of a lack of loyalty in the WH I'm sort of shocked it hadn't already happened.

I know there is some fear that there will be some sort of mass sympathy rally round the flag result from this but keep in mind Johnson got sick very early on while people were still processing the possible impact. Trump is getting sick after the impact and risks have been known for months and has been consistently downplaying it nearly all of that time. The rally round the flag effect from a national tragedy already happened and we've gone back to an equilibrium of 38-41% approval like Trump has been stuck at his entire presidency. Simply put Trump getting sick from a disease he made more prevalent isn't going to negate the 206,000 people in the US that have died from his mismanagement.

Furthermore the timing of this is super inconvenient for the Trump campaign. They are behind in the polls, they just came off a terrible debate performance, they are way behind in terms of money for advertisements and now he likely cannot do any of his mini Nuremburg rallies for 2+ weeks assuming he returns to full health. While the people that attend those are his ride or die types that were 100% going to vote for him anyway they also were free advertisements because he could go on those say all sorts of crazy ass shit and the media would duitifully report and amplify his messaging even if it came with a "yeah this is crazy pants shit". They did this because Trump being Trump is apparently good for ratings. So now you've got 2+ weeks where Trump can't be Trump in person and he's gotta depend on Trump Twitter and even the media have gotten bored of sharing Trump tweets. It also means he can't gladhand at fundraising events which is going to mean that he's even more behind in terms of campaign cash at the exact wrong time.

Of course considering all of the risk factors he exhibits there is a non-zero risk that he won't actually recover from this illness so the question mark is whether Pence would somehow be able to convince enough reluctant republican voters to come back into the fold at the the last second. But I think this makes the assumption that Pence is somehow likable and charismatic and that somehow people that are mainly reluctant to vote for Trump because of character issues would be willing to vote for his second in command. It also seems to depend on whether Pence would somehow be able to get the die-hard Trump voters to still come out in force. I'm not saying this sort of result is impossible but it seems pretty unlikely.

What will be super interesting is whether McConnell and Graham will try to force ACB hearings forward at the expected pace or if the likelihood of various Senators being exposed to COVID will force them to delay the confirmation hearings until after the election? Getting ACB confirmed within 2 weeks was going to be challenging considering that Schumer could do all sorts of procedural shenanigans to slow down Senate business but now you have the specter that ACB and other Senators will need to self-isolate and the whole timing will be thrown off.

And this is just one of like 5-6 terrible news stories that dropped just yesterday. I can't even imagine what sort of other dirt is going to come out in the next couple of weeks and the only thing the Trump campaign has in response is some sort rehashed Clinton deep state nonsense and Hunter stories. Their project veritas surprise was already revealed to be total bullshit.
posted by vuron at 7:18 AM on October 2 [57 favorites]


This is a common perception but it is not quite right. Unlike David Cameron, Boris Johnson is not born to rule. I wish I could find it because it was such an accurate description of class micro-structure but years ago I read an opinion piece on the difference between the relative class positions of Clegg (remember that guy?), Cameron, and Johnson.

Reading this gave me this great feeling of relief.. that wretched island never deserved Jeremy Corbyn.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:20 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


And they knew Hicks was positive, and tried to hide it, and that did not stop the doofus from going maskless at an indoor fundraiser.

Add it to the scandal pile, a burning tire fire of lies "the likes of which we've never seen".
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:21 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive

Pour one out for nominative determinism.
posted by acb at 7:22 AM on October 2 [35 favorites]


I want to ask respectfully to stop calling her ACB. She hasn't earned that and never will.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:23 AM on October 2 [98 favorites]


RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive

Pour one out for nominative determinism.
posted by acb at 7:22 AM on October 2 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]


I want to ask respectfully to stop calling her ACB. She hasn't earned that and never will.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:23 AM on October 2 [3 favorites +] [!]


It's their username!... oh, wait...
posted by From Bklyn at 7:26 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


He had "cold-like symptoms" during a pandemic, and they let him out into crowds
And they knew Hicks was positive, and tried to hide it, and that did not stop the doofus from going maskless at an indoor fundraiser


Hopefully this is the Day 2 story. What did the President know and when did he know it?
posted by saturday_morning at 7:26 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Come on man!

Chris Wallace did it.
posted by AugustWest at 7:27 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


A smart despot would have a freezer full of the latest antibody treatments in the WH bunker ready for such a situation. Apparently the new monoclonal antibodies are pretty potent (if not through clinical trials yet) and if I were him I'd be demanding a dose right now.

He's not that smart or organized, though.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:28 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I want to know if the Russian embassy is doing any panic testing of the agents who handle their Republican assets. It'd be pretty hilarious if they had an outbreak at the same time.

It'd probably also be interesting from an espionage perspective if the American security apparatus could use viral DNA to establish contact and transmission chains.
posted by srboisvert at 7:29 AM on October 2 [29 favorites]


So now you've got 2+ weeks where Trump can't be Trump in person and he's gotta depend on Trump Twitter and even the media have gotten bored of sharing Trump tweets. It also means he can't gladhand at fundraising events which is going to mean that he's even more behind in terms of campaign cash at the exact wrong time.

I can't imagine Trump actually staying put, so this should be interesting to see, in the worse kind of way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:31 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


I want to ask respectfully to stop calling her ACB. She hasn't earned that and never will.

I dunno... A Cop Bastard has a certain ring to it.
posted by srboisvert at 7:31 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


If he was symptomatic Weds, then by standard protocols anyone he had close contact with since probably Monday or even Sunday onward needs to be in quarantine for two weeks.

That includes a lot of government. And Biden.

Of course, most of his people will now completely disregard those protocols, even as the whole nation is watching. Another step backwards in national disease management.

Edit add (to not clog up thread) NPR is reporting that Biden has heard nothing from the GOP campaign's contact tracers.
posted by Dashy at 7:34 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


RNC Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel has also tested positive

Ronna? Seriously?
The Co-Chairperson Covid Jones must be shitting themselves.
posted by fullerine at 7:36 AM on October 2 [22 favorites]


Barrett has tested negative FWIW.

Kamala Harris too.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:38 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


I'm looking forward to the next Lincoln Project ads. The Biden campaign will probably find it tasteless to match Trump's ridiculing of Biden's mask with his illness, but The Lincoln Project doesn't do taste.

Has Trump tweeted yet? At this time of day, there are usually several tweets out, aren't there? (I am not on twitter)
posted by mumimor at 7:39 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Rick Hasen: With News That the President Has Tested Positive for Coronavirus (and He Was in Contact with Joe Biden at the Debate Earlier in the Week), What Happens If a Presidential Candidate Dies or is Incapacitated Before Election Day? A Mess
Second, the parties would now have to replace the name of their dead candidate on each state’s ballot with that of the new candidate. Depending on when this happens, that might not be simple. Different states have different deadlines for when the parties must certify their candidates for the ballot. In 2016, most were in August and September. If states do not have laws that permit changing the candidate’s name after that date, courts would probably have to be brought in. It’s hard to imagine courts refusing to permit one of the two major parties to replace a deceased candidate’s name with that of a validly chosen replacement. [...]

The problem here is that ballots are already out and millions of people have already voted. At this point it seems impossible for candidates to come up with a new name to replace a name on the ballot without starting the whole election process over, which is not possible in the 30+ days before election day. Congress could pass a bill delaying the election but I find it hard to believe it would do so.

While things are not certain, what’s most likely that the election would take place on time with the deceased or incapacitated candidate’s name on the ballot, and then there would be a question if legislatures would allow presidential electors of each state to vote for someone other than the deceased candidate. Only some state laws provide for this eventuality. (Update: Some states provide that the votes for a named replacement are counted.) Or perhaps the legislatures would seek to appoint electors directly. This could lead to a whole lot of mischief if, say, the Pennsylvania Republican legislature tried, over the Democratic governor’s objection, to appoint electors to vote for Pence (if it were Trump who could no longer be a candidate) despite a vote for the people of Pennsylania for Biden over Trump.
It's bourbon o'clock somewhere.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:41 AM on October 2 [16 favorites]



Rick Hasen: With News That the President Has Tested Positive for Coronavirus (and He Was in Contact with Joe Biden at the Debate Earlier in the Week), What Happens If a Presidential Candidate Dies or is Incapacitated Before Election Day? A Mess


Oh come on, he's most likely gonna recover. That just looks like click bait.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:48 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


A lot of worrying about how this could help Trump in the election. And hey, I get it. We’re all terrified that he’s going to get another term and justifiably so.

But let’s think about things. One, people talk about the rallying effect this will have on his supporters. Forget about them. They’re voting for him anyway and their numbers have shown zero sign of increasing.

Next, let’s look at the dynamics behind Biden’s support. He’s not the most exciting candidate, but he’s been consistently above 50% in the polls and the race has been incredibly stable. People are dug in and have been for quite a while. Look at the flood of new voter registrations. Look at the turnout in the midterms. I haven’t looked at all states but in Arizona, primary turnout was WAY up for the Dems. Look at the over two million ballots that have already been cast, vs the 74,000 this time in 2016. People cannot ducking wait to vote him out. Look at Biden’s fundraisiing. It’s record setting, and it’s accelerating. And events like the debate and RBGs passing produced massive bumps. No final figures yet, but the campaign is saying they raised more in September than in August. People are ready to vote for Biden and that enthusiasm to do so is only growing.

We’re not looking at a fluid race. There are not that many people that can be persuaded right now. This illness does not erase four years of boorish behavior, supporting white supremacists, racist policies, constantly attacking people on Twitter, nonstop lying, and a completely incompetent and non-caring response to he pandemic. He has shown zero compassion or empathy for the people who have gotten sick and the people who have died. He is not a sympathetic figure at all. Him catching the virus that he downplayed and mismanaged isn’t going to suddenly swing a ton of voters. The tens of millions of people who can’t wait to vote him out, the people who rightly see him as a national security threat, the people who are keenly aware he wants to stoke violence... those people are never coming to his side of the fence.

I get the worrying. I think as far as the election goes, though, we’re not seeing a change.
posted by azpenguin at 7:48 AM on October 2 [27 favorites]


The delay between exposure and a positive test can be up to 5 days so anyone exposed during that time is still at risk. Furthermore just because someone is negative now doesn't mean that someone else who was in contact with Trump and company won't get sick in the meantime. Does anyone really expect that the entire West Wing will go into strict isolation for 2 weeks?

I think Schumer can definitely claim that the increased risk of exposure means conducting the nomination hearings is dangerous and should be delayed for the safety of all individuals. McConnell and Graham will of course ignore that advice but it will make it seem like they are acting even more partisan which isn't going to help any of the at risk Senators. McSally, Tillis and Gardner are already goners and things are looking worse and worse for Collins and Ernst. There might be some of those endangered creatures that will want to delay the vote until the lame duck session.

Make no mistake Barrett will get confirmed but the prospect of it actually being a big benefit for Republicans prior to the election seems increasingly unlikely.
posted by vuron at 7:48 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Linger on until Election Day and all the ballots are counted, that’s all I ask. Don’t want the Never-Trumpers-But-Still-Republicans having an out. Or demanding their early voting ballots back or the Deplorable base demanding a do-over because of that or the latest Supreme Court justice getting to weigh in. I can’t even feel the schadenfreude for worrying about election disruption, and that Biden was not far enough away from the spitting angry unconscionable —————-.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:51 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


If he was symptomatic Weds, then by standard protocols anyone he had close contact with since probably Monday or even Sunday onward needs to be in quarantine for two weeks.

That includes a lot of government. And Biden.


According to the CDC, "close contact is defined as any individual who was within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes starting from 2 days before illness onset (or, for asymptomatic patients, 2 days prior to positive specimen collection) until the time the patient is isolated."

Biden and Trump were always more than 6 feet apart during the debate and they never shook hands, so he wouldn't qualify as someone who needs to quarantine under the CDC's definition.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 7:51 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


> Oh come on, he's most likely gonna recover. That just looks like click bait.

This presidency has been a long string of catastrophic events that we were told had a low probability of happening, starting with him winning it in the first place. But that happened, and all of those other catastrophic events happened. I'm happy that you have the steely resolve to look at the mortality numbers and shrug your shoulders at the possibility of calamity, but perhaps you could leave some space for those of us who don't?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:58 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]




Pulling in my comment from the other Trump FPP...

As far as whether this will affect the Supreme Court hearings... actually maybe, at least in the short term.

Trump and Hicks have had direct contact with Mark Meadows who has had 1st or 2nd degree contact with most of the Republican Senators as part of the Barrett roadshow. So most of the Republican Senate has had somewhere between 2nd and 3rd degree exposure. And while they're devoted to holding onto power, many of them are elderly. So I won't be surprised if this causes a delay in the hearings. Depending on just how much close contact they've had, if Meadows also had it, 2-10 Republican Senators might come down with it.

As it turns out, McConnell said Thursday night (when he would have known the diagnosis but the public didn't yet) that he was open to installing Barrett in a lame duck session.

And honestly, that probably works out better for him. The vulnerable Senators don't have to be on the record as voting for her, the base is still motivated to get out and vote because they don't have the SC yet, and those Senators that aren't being responsible and quarantining themselves are free to go campaigning rather than sitting around in DC holding hearings.
posted by Candleman at 8:00 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


> CNN reporting that Amy Coney Barrett has tested positive.

I'm seeing reports that she tested negative? Don't get my hopes up like that
posted by dis_integration at 8:01 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


I'm too old to live long enough to explain 2020 to my grandkids. For that I rise to give thanks to the Cosmic Muffin and all her attendants. Go ahead and scoff. I have not yet figured out how to explain the 60's. For now I can't separate my general wish to feel sympathy for anyone who has to deal with this terrible disease, and my sputtering reaction to the galactic irony of this development.

We swim in deep water.
posted by mule98J at 8:02 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Yeah I mis-read CNN's breaking news thing and asked the mods to delete the post.
posted by jquinby at 8:02 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric, and Tiffany Trump didn't wear masks during the president's showdown with Joe Biden, breaking the venue's rules, Business Insider, Sinéad Baker, Sep 30, 2020:
  • Trump's children were pictured wearing masks as they approached their seats, but they took them off for the debate itself.
  • First lady Melania Trump took off her mask after sitting down. She did not wear one on stage, while Jill Biden did.
  • ...people in the audience who were there to support Biden wore masks for the event.
Photos in the BI article.
posted by cenoxo at 8:07 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]



This presidency has been a long string of catastrophic events that we were told had a low probability of happening, starting with him winning it in the first place. But that happened, and all of those other catastrophic events happened. I'm happy that you have the steely resolve to look at the mortality numbers and shrug your shoulders at the possibility of calamity, but perhaps you could leave some space for those of us who don't?


No, I think you're misunderstanding me and confusing things. I'm not talking about any of the crazy unlikely stuff that's happened with him over the years. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes up that this will terminate him. He's got access to good health care. But who knows, he's not young or in good health.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:08 AM on October 2


Per The Guardian: Donald Trump’s youngest son, Barron, 14, has tested negative for COVID-19, the White House said.
posted by cenoxo at 8:13 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Bluesky43, that is a faked image and the tweet has been deleted.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:19 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


This potential situation is why I have always had mixed views about widespread mail-in balloting and early voting. Haven't there already been some elections where a candidate died or otherwise had to be dropped from the race between the time ballots were mailed out and election day?
posted by PhineasGage at 8:20 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I'm too old to live long enough to explain 2020 to my grandkids.

No matter how long I live, I won't be able to explain 2020 to my grandkids (and I don't have any yet). But worse, I fear that 2020 marks the beginning of a new age rather than an unfortunate outlier in a succession of normal years. So 2020 may someday seem like a quaint harbinger, bad as it seems now.

I've occasionally used the phrase "the beforetimes" with my family, at first ironically, but now it's normal. "May you live in interesting times" indeed.
posted by swift at 8:22 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


I don't think you announce this at 1am unless you expect to be making a trip to Walter Reed today.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:23 AM on October 2 [34 favorites]


When did he last meet with Amy Coney Barrett? Does she have to quarantine herself? Sure would be a shame if those Senate hearings were delayed.

Weren't they going to do then virtually anyway? If not, they would probably do so.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:24 AM on October 2


Drinking game: do a shot every time you hear the phrase "an abundance of caution."

Update: I am dead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:25 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


"An abundance of caution" is the new "Now more than ever."
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:27 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


What are the chances he tries to use this as a pretense to delay the election?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:28 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


"But who knows, he's not young or in good health."

At least he was lucky never to have had a series of mini-strokes.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:29 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Time to get started on a wooden sculpture of the numbers "2020" so I can burn it on New Year's Eve ala Burning Man.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:29 AM on October 2 [20 favorites]


What are the chances he tries to use this as a pretense to delay the election?

He can try all he wants, that’s simply not a thing that can happen. I’m comfortable calling that shot.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 AM on October 2 [28 favorites]


What are the chances he tries to use this as a pretense to delay the election?

I can guarantee that he'll tweet or talk about it, but seriously doubt it can happen. He doesn't have the power and this train has already started moving.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:30 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Karma is a sweet sweet bitch.
posted by infini at 8:31 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I crunch numbers regarding the numbers of COVID-19 cases for each of the fifty states (and DC). This past couple of weeks have looked bad, the worst since late July. This is partially masked in total numbers of new infections because most of the big increases are taking place in less populous states. California, for example, is doing well, while the Dakotas are doing badly.

33 out of 51 states (by that I include DC) had increases in infectious rates this past week. As for new infections per million, the top 16 states are all red (as defined by whether Donald Trump won in 2016). Minnesota is the 17th.

North Dakota has the second highest new cases per million per week that any state has had, save Florida at Florida's peak.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:32 AM on October 2 [14 favorites]


whether this is really just me being conspiratorial, or simply Occam's Razor.

sometimes even Occam resorts to conspiracy
posted by philip-random at 8:35 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I just hope he doesn't Karma Houdini his way out of this one and never ever have one symptom and be perfectly fine forever. Which I am absolutely expecting the way 2020 is going.

Because testing is so backed up and slow, and because it's a new disease, we don't have hard data on early treatment with available resources. Generally we don't have this on acute viral infections at all, because you usually catch after symptoms. But given how the virus works and drugs and anecdotally from doctors this is the best case scenario--one denied to most people because of our crappy testing.

Even without experimental antibodies or something. I'm nervous as hell but I'd like my odds in this case. The groomsman for one of the Four Riders? He'll be fine. Options and knowledge are better than they were in New York during the early height.
posted by mark k at 8:36 AM on October 2


It's unfortunate that spray tan doesn't provide Vitamin D...
posted by msbrauer at 8:37 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I've been repeating on Twitter the history of the GOP's appalling treatment of this pandemic, especially when it was only affecting blue States. Trump mocking my governor and his cult showing up with guns at the Capitol because they couldn't get haircuts, Kushner saying well it's only affecting blue states, the Texas Lt. Gov. floating the trial balloon that old people should die for the economy.

I want people to remember every horrible thing they've said /not said, done/ not done, because I know how they'll change their tune, and how the cult's cognitive dissonance will make them forget the past. Now, if he gets better it's "thanks to the Lord" or "what a strong person he is."

If he did get really sick or die (which he won't), well, Evangelicals have wanted pence from the start. A state funeral, images of steely jawed Mike assuming command..

Also, this of course has removed every other awful thing from the news cycle.

So yes, I worry about Biden's health, and even if Biden and God forbid his beloved wife don't get ill, I worry how this will slow Joementum and make a sociopathic dictator sympathetic.

ploy for him to loudly and publicly appear to take a vaccine that miraculously works

I don't think you ever get a vaccine while you have a disease?
posted by NorthernLite at 8:38 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]




I was thinking last night about all the schaudenfruede about this and how just outright "karma!" "About time!" and all that we've been seeing, how many of us who normally would never wish someone ill have been taking a measure of "told ya so". I was surprised at how I was feeling about all this, and kinda guilty. For a lot of us, this is not who we are, and yet, now here we are. I think I've figured it out. This is the first time in the last four years that he has had to deal with consequences for his actions. He has gotten away with so much. So what you're feeling is basically, in a warped way, your sense of justice peeking out. I won't get carried away with this but at least I understand why I'm feeling like this.
posted by azpenguin at 8:43 AM on October 2 [40 favorites]


I can guarantee that he'll tweet or talk about it, but seriously doubt it can happen. He doesn't have the power and this train has already started moving.

I agree, but the press reports almost every word out of his mouth, and Twitter won’t get rid of him, so whatever he says will fan the flames and put ideas in the heads of other unsavory people.
posted by Melismata at 8:43 AM on October 2


Zero chance that the election can be delayed. Hell at this point people have started voting so they couldn't even replace a nominee's name at this date. So for all intents and purposes the train has already left the station.

Republicans are definitely trying to put their fingers on the scale in some of the swing states in addition to their standard voter suppression routines (thanks Gov. Abbott) but honestly I'm beginning to think they've already written off a Trump loss as inevitable and their games are mainly about limiting the damage down ballot. If Biden is making states like GA, IA, OH, TX competitive that puts a massive amount of pressure on federal, state and local elections in a lot of states. This election will have significant implications for reapportionment and redistricting and Republicans are looking at a perfect storm of suck right now and very limited amount of time to change things up.

The fact that you have at risk Senators talking about somehow protecting pre-existing conditions when the SCOTUS likely rules against ACA already tells you how bad they think this election could be. Too bad they couldn't have you know come to their senses back during impeachment though...
posted by vuron at 8:44 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


This is the scary bit about testing. A negative test doesn't mean that the person is not infected. Of course, I dont expect any WH staffers to even acknowledge this about the tests.
posted by asra at 8:46 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


I'm really looking forward to "An Oral History of How Saturday Night Live Re-Wrote Their Entire October 3rd, 2020 Show On The Friday Before Air."
posted by bondcliff at 8:49 AM on October 2 [92 favorites]


>Time to get started on a wooden sculpture of the numbers "2020" so I can burn it on New Year's Eve ala Burning Man.

Something like this perhaps?
posted by Catblack at 8:49 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


He has gotten away with so much. So what you're feeling is basically, in a warped way, your sense of justice peeking out. I won't get carried away with this but at least I understand why I'm feeling like this.

I hear that. But I also don't think it would help the cause of justice for him to die or become very sick. That gives him martyrdom of one kind or another. In any case, his conspiracy theorists can spin his being the focus of attention in his favor every time. The thing is, I don't think he will die, or even get very sick. His horrible meat barrel has its weaknesses, but it hasn't failed him yet. Plus, the world's best care, etc. And it certainly won't change him as a person. There's nothing there to change. The same goes for Melania.

I am feeling all kinds of ways about this. I am thinking of this old Zen parable, particularly.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:50 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


How on earth did this administration allow the Commander-In-Chief to catch covid? Mind boggling incompetence — this is the key take-away — no matter what his ultimate health outcome.

I say this because it’s statistically more likely that he will be fine than not, and if he recovers quickly, he will crow about 1. covid being a nothing-burger and 2. he recovered because he is Superman (he will claim both simultaneously, of course, but Trumpers won’t notice the contradiction).

Presidential Covid = concentric circles of incompetence and failure.
posted by Toecutter at 8:50 AM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Metafilter: His horrible meat barrel.
posted by jquinby at 8:52 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


You can't make the man do what he ought -- that is, wear a mask, socially distance, give up his rallies. They've done a hell of a job to get him out of it for this long.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


The better analogy would be not to Bolsonaro's COVID, but to him being stabbed in 2018, one month before the election. It gave him a huge advantage: dominated the news cycle, surge of patriotic support, convenient excuse to not embarrass himself in any debate.

There are a lot of "stabbing truthers" convinced to this day that it was all a setup. That doesn't stand up to scrutiny, he was treated by two medical teams and the police and courts concluded that it was just a mentally ill lone wolf. Still, conspiracy theorists gonna conspiracy theorize.

Which brings us to the question: How well documented is Trump's diagnosis? Any Trump COVID truthers yet?
posted by Tom-B at 8:54 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Mike Lee, senator from Utah, has also tested positive.

He was at the unmasked, undistanced, Rose Garden SCOTUS event on Saturday.
posted by bcd at 8:55 AM on October 2 [17 favorites]


What do you want to bet it's under a week before he's back out, visibly violating isolation protocol and making a big tweet about how it's not really necessary?
posted by eirias at 8:55 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Oh yeah, Tom, all over Facebook. It's anti-Trump, of course. I can believe that he would lie about anything, but this just does not seem like his style.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:55 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Mike Lee sits on judiciary.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:57 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Any Trump COVID truthers yet?

All over my Facebook feed, yes.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:57 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Mike Lee was also doing unmasked, undistanced photo ops with Barrett as recently as Tuesday.
posted by bcd at 8:58 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


¯\_(🦠)_/¯
posted by donatella at 9:01 AM on October 2 [65 favorites]


I hear that. But I also don't think it would help the cause of justice for him to die or become very sick.

As a Canadian and ex-Torontonian I end up harping on Rob Ford a lot in these threads, but I think it's a really important comparison. Weeks before he was set to be defeated in his re-election bid, he got cancer and dropped out of the race. The city never had a chance to vote him out. And I think that lack of catharsis, skipping the introspection and processing the scale of what had just happened to the city, is a big reason why a) Toronto has been run ever since that election by another conservative with the same policies and nicer manners — the Tom Cotton to Ford's Trump if you will — and b) the province of Ontario managed to gloss over the whole thing and elect Ford's monstrous brother as its leader a couple years later.

You really, really do not want this to happen to Trump.

How well documented is Trump's diagnosis? Any Trump COVID truthers yet?

Scroll up.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:04 AM on October 2 [45 favorites]


Things that will absolutely happen in the next 14 days:

1. Trump will announce that he's feeling great and not sick at all.
2. Trump will blame the deep state for intentionally giving him the virus because that's the only way he could have gotten it since he obviously was washing his hands a lot.
3. Trump will announce his recovery from the disease after very mild symptoms because he took hydroxychloroquine and not because he received the best care any human in the world can receive beginning mere hours after contracting the disease.
4. Trump will continually harp that COVID isn't that bad, and "hey, I had it, and it was like the sniffles."
posted by Room 101 at 9:06 AM on October 2 [18 favorites]


Haven't read all the comments yet, but unable to control my immediate reaction: HA HA HA HA HOW DO YOU LIKE IT NOW MOTHERFUCKER
posted by medusa at 9:08 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Lee is also only 49 and Barrett is only 48. They have a ~99% chance of surviving. If Barrett gets significantly ill it might delay the hearings, but it won't affect the outcome.

But between the Rose Garden event where Lee may have caught it, all the people traveling with Hicks, the debate, the Minnesota fundraiser, White House staff, etc there's a good chance that somebody dies. "Trump gave someone a lethal case of COVID" could be the story right before the election.
posted by jedicus at 9:10 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]




"Trump gave someone a lethal case of COVID" could be the story right before the election.

*cough* Herman
*cough* Cain
posted by saturday_morning at 9:14 AM on October 2 [23 favorites]


Biden's negative for coronavirus.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on October 2 [58 favorites]


Cain couldn't have caught it from Trump directly. Someone dying after catching it in the same cluster as Trump (and this is already a cluster) or catching it directly from Trump...that starts to feel different, I think, especially the latter.
posted by jedicus at 9:17 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Biden's negative for coronavirus.

Source?
posted by bluesky43 at 9:18 AM on October 2


DiFi or Grassley who have been in close proximity to Lee at SJC meetings this week are certainly high-risk just based on their ages.
posted by bcd at 9:19 AM on October 2


Biden's negative for coronavirus.

Source?


NBC news reporter.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:19 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


US Presidential Chief of Staff Mark Meadows says that when they learned that Hope Hicks had tested positive, they pulled some staff who had been in contact with her off the Marine One helicopter headed to New Jersey. But there was someone who had been in close contact with Hope Hicks they didn’t pull off the helicopter. The President, who has subsequently tested positive for COVID-19. Why? Presumably the President didn’t care enough about whether he might spread deadly disease to other people.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:20 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Marianna Sotomayor
@MariannaNBCNews

.@mikememoli
breaking news: @JoeBiden
has tested NEGATIVE for the coronavirus after taking a test this morning.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:21 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Biden's negative for coronavirus.

Source?


Also on front page of NYT
posted by terrapin at 9:21 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


One thing it occurs to me that might result from this is proving all those dumb "just do this and you'll be fine" theories false, because no way will Trump actually take that shitty medical advice he's been spouting.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Yamiche Alcindor : NEWS: Former VP Joe Biden and his wife Dr. Jill Biden have tested NEGATIVE for COVID-19.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:22 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Biden is negative today. He'll still need another test next week to confirm.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:22 AM on October 2 [40 favorites]


So I mean, as someone who had COVID earlier in this year, I’d like to point out that even mild cases can be devastating. Like, getting out of bed is still too much some days. So I mean, while I’m sure you all spent good money on those goats whose entrails are telling you “oh, it’s likely gonna be mild, and he’ll be back and convince everyone that COVID is a hoax still,” maybe we could hold off and see if he could actually stand up for long enough to give that speech.
posted by Gygesringtone at 9:24 AM on October 2 [89 favorites]


Thank goodness Biden is negative. Worst case scenario would have been that Trump - after mocking Biden during the debate for wearing a mask - passed it on to him and that Biden succumbed but Trump survived.
posted by essexjan at 9:24 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Give President Trump his due: his bold choices may well have taken the nation’s greatest security threat out of action.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:28 AM on October 2 [30 favorites]


Gygesringtone; agreed I know a kid, 24-25 who had it in March and is still coughing despite doctors citing no lung damage, also has fatigue problems.
posted by Max Power at 9:29 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


It is good that Joe and Jill Biden tested negative, but we're not actually out of the woods for that scenario yet, essexjan. It usually takes a few days past exposure for someone to be sick enough to give a positive PCR test and then symptoms show up a day or so later. If Biden were exposed Tuesday night it might be a day or two until a positive test would show up.
posted by Sublimity at 9:29 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


I would assume the Bidens will be tested daily for the next little while for that reason. Especially if he plans to continue campaigning in the meantime.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:30 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


I can see the FOX headlines:

BIDEN GOES NEGATIVE IN WAKE OF DEBATE
posted by philip-random at 9:35 AM on October 2 [22 favorites]


Trump refuses to give us nearly any medical information about himself that isn't a lie. When he was rushed to the hospital it was "just a scheduled physical."

The guy who literally won't tell anyone anything with a straight answer says he has COVID. They're his medical records, so unless he literally unseals medical records as proof, we're just taking his word, and we know his word is 100% gish-galop bullshit,

Color me as skeptical as you can fucking be. Being the well known germaphobe he is, and his statements to Woodward, make clear he would be absolutely losing his fucking shit if he had it. We know this because we know deep down Trump is the biggest coward of all.

He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:35 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Maggie Haberman NYT. White House told Cuomo's office that POTUS would be on this 12:15 call, per people briefed. But it's Pence, not POTUS, who is on right now.
12:27 PM · Oct 2, 2020
posted by bluesky43 at 9:36 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


I would assume that the Bidens know this and would do something like, oh I don't know, maybe NOT WALK AROUND WITHOUT MASKS ON IN BIG CROWDS DURING A GODDAMNED PANDEMIC... because what kind of raving idiot moron does THAT amirite?
posted by caution live frogs at 9:37 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I would assume Biden's getting tested daily, as part of his Secret Service protection, just like 45.
posted by Rash at 9:37 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Barring his death (and as much as I hate the guy, I can't wish for anyone's death) I see no way in which he doesn't spin this to rally his supporters, making them believe it's a positive thing, unless he quickly ends up intubated until election day. Also, if he makes it out the other side, the "see, you don't need masks" people are going to go completely nuts.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 9:38 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.

He hasn't shown his face or said anything publicly (ghostwritten tweet notwithstanding), so I question how certain you are that he is still in possession of his feces.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:39 AM on October 2 [18 favorites]


BBC and others are reporting that both the Bidens have tested negative.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:40 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.
This is just my opinion, man, but I think he is loosing his shit. That is why we are not seeing anything from him.
posted by mumimor at 9:40 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


But it's Pence, not POTUS, who is on right now.

"As of now, Mother is in control here, at the White House."
posted by delfin at 9:40 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


He is not losing his shit, ipso facto fuckto he's full of shit.

What makes you think that, though? He hasn't tweeted all day (except for 1am covid announcement), so who knows?
posted by Juffo-Wup at 9:40 AM on October 2


He hasn't tweeted for almost 12 hours. Too early to say, I know, but is this it? Has he gone silent?
posted by popcassady at 9:41 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


The three tweet sequence from Joe Biden over the last 15 hours is *chef's kiss*. It's basically you screwed up on Covid, sorry you got Covid, my wife and I don't have Covid - remember to wash your hands.

(in chronological order)
- Donald Trump will do everything he can to distract from the fact that because of his failed COVID-19 response: -Over 200,000 Americans have died- 26 million are on unemployment - 1 in 6 small businesses risk permanent closure. We can’t let him.

- Jill and I send our thoughts to President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump for a swift recovery. We will continue to pray for the health and safety of the president and his family.

- I’m happy to report that Jill and I have tested negative for COVID. Thank you to everyone for your messages of concern. I hope this serves as a reminder: wear a mask, keep social distance, and wash your hands.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:41 AM on October 2 [69 favorites]


He hasn’t tweeted, but has he golfed?

But I have to agree that with the access to medical care they have, massive negative preconditions non withstanding, he has a decent chance of surviving to be voted out ignominiously and made to stand trial(s).

I honestly wish him the best.
posted by tilde at 9:45 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


If the Boris Johnson illness timeline is any guide, the fact that GOP folk like Mitch McConnell are saying they've spoken to him and he's 'in good spirits' suggests he's not capable of speaking in public and he's 36-72 hours away from being on a ventilator.

Johnson was 'fine, fine, working hard, here's a blurry screenshot of me on a Zoom call' until he wasn't, then the Tories all went into 'praying for the boss' mode and he was in the ICU.
posted by Happy Dave at 9:46 AM on October 2 [17 favorites]


What a relief that Joe and Jill Biden have tested negative! They'll need later tests to confirm it, but that is definitely good news.

Trump has been confirmed to be symptomatic, and judging by how the information was released as Boris Johnson got sicker, I think he might be in pretty bad condition right now. This information is probably coming out so that we don't all panic if/when he has to go to the hospital.

This kind of uncertainty and instability is bad for the country, so it freaks me out. But this isn't good for Trump's campaign. He can't hold rallies or fundraisers, people are imagining him sick or even dead (and wondering who could replace him on the ballot), and the market is tanking. This is Trump's worst nightmare, not something he would want to play for sympathy points. He might GET some sympathy points, but it's not as though he and his followers are big on sympathy, so...

Too much news going on lately, though. It's overwhelming.
posted by rue72 at 9:47 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


I think he deserves the best medical care that money can buy.
750 dollars' worth, to be precise.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 9:47 AM on October 2 [77 favorites]


He hasn't shown his face or said anything publicly (ghostwritten tweet notwithstanding), so I question how certain you are that he is still in possession of his feces.

Mostly that he was able to stand in front of cameras and say "I have COVID" without losing his shit partway through.

He has been unable to be straighforward about ANY medical situation in his life, he refuses to give answers about the most basic of medical situations.

But this, he just lays it out. Somehow, I just don't think if he REALLY had it, that there would be an announcement. They would hide it until he was intubated. Hell, they might even try to go with a body double.

Republican administrations traditionally hide absolutely everything they can that could make them look bad until it can't be hidden anymore. Bush hid fucking torture, people.

Coming right out and announcing it does not fit with the kind of fuckery they've been doing for more than twenty fucking years.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:48 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Notre Dame President Fr. John Jenkins, who was also at the SCOTUS event on Saturday, has tested positive for COVID-19.

Sure looks like a super spreader event to me. Video of Mike Lee at that event, holding his mask in his hand, hugging people.
posted by bcd at 9:48 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


...the fact that GOP folk like Mitch McConnell are saying they've spoken to him and he's 'in good spirits' suggests he's not capable of speaking in public and he's 36-72 hours away from being on a ventilator.

That was my take too. People are asking whether this is a hoax, but history suggests the hoax is in the other direction. With the administration insisting to the media that he only has mild, cold-like symptoms, we really do have to expect the worst.
posted by mittens at 9:49 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


October 2nd, 2016: Donald Trump mocks Hillary Clinton over her pneumonia outbreak

In case you were starting to feel bad for him.
posted by clawsoon at 9:49 AM on October 2 [73 favorites]


Here's Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in front of reporters, still not wearing a god damn mask.

Kudlow wears a mask only because reporter Brian Karem asked him.

Just saying, an awful lot of this looks awfully inevitable, like it always did.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:50 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Republican administrations traditionally hide absolutely everything they can that could make them look bad until it can't be hidden anymore.

Coming right out and announcing it does not fit with the kind of fuckery they've been doing for more than twenty fucking years.

Maybe they know that they are already at the point where it can't be hidden anymore. In this case I agree with the comparisons with Boris Johnson. They wanted to hide it, but it was impossible.
posted by mumimor at 9:52 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


With any luck, we won't hear from him again. He gets out of hospital by the election but only releases a press statement on the morning of his loss. No tweets to rile up the right. Too ashamed to face the public, he abdicates to Pence for the lame duck period. March/April the FBI wheel-chair him, pale and bald, out of Mar-a-Lago.
posted by popcassady at 9:53 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


>> He hasn't shown his face or said anything publicly (ghostwritten tweet notwithstanding), so I question how certain you are that he is still in possession of his feces.

> Mostly that he was able to stand in front of cameras and say "I have COVID" without losing his shit partway through.

When did he do that?
posted by churl at 9:53 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Sure looks like a super spreader event to me. Video of Mike Lee at that event, holding his mask in his hand, hugging people.

This has the feel of a season-ending cliffhanger. Who will make it out of Moldavia alive?
posted by Slothrup at 9:55 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Melania's tapes got leaked. Next day: BOOM.

When you declare a War on Christmas, you best not miss.
posted by delfin at 9:59 AM on October 2 [74 favorites]


This has the feel of a season-ending cliffhanger.

As we sure the series was picked up for next season? I hope so, but not positive at this point.
posted by bcd at 9:59 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Video of the ACB announcement event on Saturday at the WH featuring Sen. Mike Lee of Utah, who has now tested positive for Covid-19.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:03 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Is there a gofundme for Trump's medical expenses yet?
posted by srboisvert at 10:05 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Oh, my love, they've turned it into an enormous fundraiser.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:06 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


From Fox News (with apologies but this is worth it)

Smith touts an "exclusive interview" with Dr. Atlas

Wallace: I'm going to say something, I'm just giving the truth, Atlas is not an epidemiologist, not an infectious disease specialist, he has no training in this area

Atlas is on the WH task force because Trump saw him on Fox
posted by bluesky43 at 10:09 AM on October 2 [25 favorites]


My immediate thoughts last night, which have not been changed by the light of morning:

The fallout would be more likely to cause additional chaos than bring stability, but fuck it, I hope he suffers and dies. He is a fascist who has been openly agitating for civil war and denying the basic reality of a potentially deadly virus during a global pandemic (among other, worse things that I don't see discussed much anywhere). He deserved to catch it and he deserves to suffer and die. Over 200,000 other people have suffered and died as a direct result of his rank stupidity and deliberate, malicious mismanagement.

My followup thoughts last night, which have not been changed by the light of morning:

Has anyone tried treating him with bleach or sunlight? Just saying. Lots of people are asking. Maybe someone should look into that.
posted by Lonnrot at 10:09 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


As we sure the series was picked up for next season?

When the writers are set on killing everyone, it usually means the network's cancelling.
posted by popcassady at 10:09 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Melania's tapes sound bad, but they're also full of just enough mixed messages for people to defend her on it, too. She's an objectively terrible person but her claiming she "tried" to reunite "a" family and how the media is mean to her is enough for people to cling to and make it a non-story.

And to be honest her disinterest in Christmas decorations is probably the most sympathetic moment she's ever had.

She's fully complicit and awful, but I don't think that story was ever destined to go far or make much difference.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:12 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


Per CNN just now, Trump skipped a planned conference call today, which Pence had to host in his stead. The subject was -- no lie -- senior citizens and the dangers of COVID.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:13 AM on October 2 [43 favorites]


Yeah I’m n^th-ing on ix-naying the initial thing for Barrett.

Also, wow I’m struggling with blendered feelings right now: “I told you so!” is mixing queasily with “Oh god, what’s next?” And “Can we just not?”
posted by disentir at 10:15 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


He hasn’t tweeted, but has he golfed?

He didn't even do the conference call that was literally the only thing on his schedule for today:

Source confirms @maggieNYT
's report: VP Pence took over for President Trump on a 12:15 PM call w/ govs on Covid-19 support for vulnerable seniors

It was the only activity listed on Trump's public schedule, after a DC fundraiser and FL rally were previously scrapped


I do not think he is faking this, if anything he's been faking how well he was.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:15 AM on October 2 [23 favorites]


And to be honest her disinterest in Christmas decorations is probably the most sympathetic moment she's ever had.

yes I was just saying to someone how in an alternate universe, Melania is justly expressing frustration with the outdated bullshit gender roles of the "first lady" position, and particularly being expected to invest in those bullshit roles in a time of national crisis, and in that alternate universe I'm a thousand percent behind her.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:16 AM on October 2 [27 favorites]


"hope is contagious"
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:17 AM on October 2 [59 favorites]


No, those nuclear 'doomsday planes' weren't in the air because of Trump's COVID-19 diagnosis, Task & Purpose, Jeff Schogl, 10/2/2020:
Everyone on Twitter needs to calm the f—k down about the fact that two military nuclear command planes were airborne when President Donald Trump let the nation know that he and First Lady Melania Trump had tested positive for the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) .

The Navy’s E-6B planes are meant to serve as communication links between the national command authority and the U.S. nuclear forces. The planes are equipped with an airborne launch control system that allows them to launch ground-based intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Both E-6B Mercury planes were on pre-planned flights when the president tweeted about his diagnosis, defense officials said on Friday. “Any timing to the President’s announcement is purely coincidental,” said Karen Singer, a spokeswoman for U.S. Strategic Command, which is in charge of the military’s nuclear arsenal. The U.S. military has not made any changes to its alert levels, said Army Col. David Butler, a spokesman for the Joint Staff....
More details about the early E-6B plane reports in the T&P article. See also WP about Boeing E-6 Mercury aircraft and the Airborne Launch Control System.
posted by cenoxo at 10:18 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


I realize it changes nothing, but pause a moment and imagine the fallout had Michelle Obama uttered those same words about Christmas decorations.
posted by bcd at 10:18 AM on October 2 [104 favorites]


The Melania story was never going to change anyone's mind. It's lovely, but it's also what we all knew all the time, trumpists and non-trumpists alike. (Anyone who still believes Melania is a liberal victim of Trump needs to pay more attention).
Trump getting sick is something that may change the minds of some of the delusional old people who thought he knew better than doctor Fauci. Not the QAnon folks obvs, but normal old racist aunts and uncles. Not that we need one person in his base to change their minds. The important thing is to get out the vote, now.
posted by mumimor at 10:18 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]




"Maybe they know that they are already at the point where it can't be hidden anymore."

I don't want to get too deep into speculation, but to me, tweeting the news at one in the morning suggests that exact point. There's no good reason to release that news in the dead of night. (There's releasing news before the markets open, of course, but this is a bit much for that.) Why not wait until morning when the country is awake, unless there is a compelling and urgent reason to do it immediately?
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:27 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Per The Guardian: Donald Trump’s youngest son, Barron, 14, has tested negative for COVID-19, the White House said.

When your selfish father never spending any time with you really pays off.
posted by acb at 10:27 AM on October 2 [43 favorites]


In the jurisdiction where I do contact tracing, there are a lot of hispanic minimum wage workers who have just tested positive. As with every day, sadly, we are racing to reach them, so we can get the Cases into isolation and identify and reach their recent Contacts to get them into quarantine. That high-profile Case whom I shall not name is responsible for our having to make so many of these calls. He shall never be forgiven.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:29 AM on October 2 [31 favorites]


I think he deserves the best medical care that money can buy.
750 dollars' worth, to be precise.


How many acetaminophen tablets does that get you at insurance prices?
posted by acb at 10:29 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


- testing isn't reliable; the 'showing mild symptoms' disclosure is really interesting [My uncle: wake me when he's spotted in Buenos Aires]
- "But so-and-so is only ___ , they'd likely recover": an undisclosed pre-existing condition (or undiagnosed at time of COVID-19 infection) would alter the trajectory of this disease

Fauci Named 2020 Federal Employee of the Year by nonpartisan group (Oct. 1, 2020); Fauci to Trump: Everyone Should Wear Masks, I’m So Tired of Saying This (Vanity Fair, Oct. 1, 2020);
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:30 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


I guess Florida is now a blue state.
posted by gauche at 10:30 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


This potential situation is why I have always had mixed views about widespread mail-in balloting and early voting. Haven't there already been some elections where a candidate died or otherwise had to be dropped from the race between the time ballots were mailed out and election day?

posted by PhineasGage
You don't need mail-in voting for that to happen, Mel Carnahan beat John Ashcroft in the 2000 Missouri Senate race despite the handicap of being dead for 3 weeks.
posted by revgeorge at 10:32 AM on October 2 [21 favorites]


wake me when he's spotted in Buenos Aires

Moscow, or Riyadh, surely? Possibly Pyongyang at a stretch.
posted by acb at 10:34 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


wake me when he's spotted in Buenos Aires

Moscow, or Riyadh, surely? Possibly Pyongyang at a stretch.


R'lyeh.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:36 AM on October 2 [38 favorites]


- Chris Christie says no one in the debate prep room wore masks (USA Today, today) [The former governor of NJ says his test from Tuesday was negative, and the results of his test from today will be available tomorrow. *Christie tugs on tie, mutters about respect*] Reportedly in that room: Christie, Hicks, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, former White House counselor Kellyanne Conway, campaign communications strategist Jason Miller, White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, senior adviser and the president's son-in-law Jared Kushner, press secretary Kayleigh McEnany and communications director Alyssa Farah.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:36 AM on October 2 [10 favorites]


Reportedly in that room: ... White House chief of staff Mark Meadows

So, he was in a room with at least two other people who have since tested positive and he still won't wear a mask when talking to press? What an asshole.
posted by Slothrup at 10:39 AM on October 2 [18 favorites]


In case you were starting to feel bad for him.
I understand the appeal but … don’t we want to see our moral sights a bit higher than his level? I want him to suffer a trial, not a nasty disease.
posted by adamsc at 10:39 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Brief history lesson:

In 1872, candidate Horace Greeley died after the election but before the Electoral College vote. Some electoral votes for Greeley were accepted, other Greeley electors changed their votes. Greeley had already lost the popular vote to Ulysses S. Grant anyway.

In 1912, Vice-President James Sherman, who was running with then President Taft on the Republican ticket, died a few days before the election. In the electoral college vote, his electors voted for Nicholas Butler for Vice-President instead. The Republican ticket that year had no chance of winning anyway, and they came in third after Woodrow Wilson for the Democrats as the winner, and Teddy Roosevelt in second.
posted by gimonca at 10:42 AM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Josh Rogin: GOP lawmakers who were on the plane with Trump are voting on the House floor today as if they weren't exposed. No widespread testing in the Capitol.
posted by theory at 10:45 AM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Trump’s pre-spin seems to blame military, police interactions for coronavirus diagnosis
in the hours after we learned that counselor to the president Hope Hicks had tested positive for the novel coronavirus and before we learned Trump himself had it, he offered some strange comments that seemed to lay the groundwork for how he could explain his impending diagnosis: It might have come from the military or law enforcement.

“You know, it’s very hard, when you’re with soldiers, when you’re with airmen, when you’re with Marines, and I’m with — and the police officers,” Trump said. “I’m with them so much. And when they come over here, it’s very hard to say, stay back, stay back. It’s a tough kind of a situation.”

Trump then turned to his own test and to Hicks. “So, I just went for a test, and we’ll see what happens. I mean, who knows? But you know her very well. She’s fantastic. And she’s done a great job.”

And then he again returned to the alleged potential spreaders.

“But it’s very, very hard when you are with people from the military or … law enforcement, and they come over to you, and they want to hug you, and they want to kiss you, because we really have done a good job for them,” Trump said. “And you get close, and things happen.”
I assume he'll pivot to blaming immigrants and Black people ASAP, but maybe that's just because I don't appreciate the very stable political genius of blaming your most hardcore supporters for your own obvious dumb mistakes.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:47 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]


The more I think about it, the more I relish the idea of Evangelical Christians having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing #45 to be their infallible "savior" while also believing that G-d afflicts people with diseases as punishment for their sins...

They say #45 is divisive, and yet I never thought I'd agree with the EC's on anything...
posted by sleepingwithcats at 10:49 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Keith Edwards: 4 years ago today, Donald Trump mocks Hillary Clinton over her pneumonia outbreak.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 10:50 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Meanwhile, conservative propaganda sources are pulling out the Greatest Hits album since Trump will be too busy for his own version of Chinese Democracy to drop this month.

Daily Caller: Migrant caravan heading towards the U.S. breaks through a police barricade and enters Guatemala illegally.
posted by delfin at 10:53 AM on October 2


Guys, I think Trump may be really sick.

1. Typically the move is to downplay a politicians illnesses. If they’re admitting to mild symptoms, that’s not a good sign.
2. He looked bad at the rally in Minnesota- gray under the makeup, out of breath, fatigued.
3. The tweet that announced the positive test was ghost written (he didn’t announce it)
4. He hasn’t been heard from or seen today, as far as I can tell.
posted by susiswimmer at 10:56 AM on October 2 [47 favorites]


Who knows. I question his status as sick so much even with these juicy tidbits coming out.

I just want the fucker out of my head forever.
posted by glaucon at 11:04 AM on October 2 [19 favorites]


When he was diagnosed, and especially when he was hospitalized, it was a bit of an "oh, shit" moment, and we all had "what if he dies" thoughts, but generally people didn't wish it on him

👋 I did!

And I wish it on Trump as well and don't feel even the slightest bit uncomfortable about saying so. Die, you worthless waste of oxygen. Just die.
posted by flabdablet at 11:05 AM on October 2 [38 favorites]


“But it’s very, very hard when you are with people from the military or … law enforcement, and they come over to you, and they want to hug you, and they want to kiss you, because we really have done a good job for them,” Trump said.

They don't even wait. When they're military or law enforcement, you let them do it. They can do anything.
posted by mochapickle at 11:06 AM on October 2 [24 favorites]


6) I don't like the prospects of a Harris versus Pence race.

Way upthread but that sounds pretty ok to me.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:06 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Reporters on twitter are saying that Biden just tested negative
posted by davedave at 11:09 AM on October 2


DiFi or Grassley who have been in close proximity to Lee at SJC meetings this week are certainly high-risk just based on their ages.

Give how old our legislators are, if this gets loose in Congress it could do a lot of damage
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:09 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


“But it’s very, very hard when you are with people from the military or … law enforcement, and they come over to you, and they want to hug you, and they want to kiss you..."

What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?
posted by hanov3r at 11:10 AM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Man, between “Trump has COVID” and “Jacob Wohl Indicted”, this is turning out to be some day!
posted by darkstar at 11:11 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Give how old our legislators are, if this gets loose in Congress it could do a lot of damage

If the CFR for cases older than 70 is 1 in 20, it's looking increasingly likely that member(s) of the administration will in deed die from this superspreading event(s).
posted by Dashy at 11:11 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?


It's the same group of big, strong men who come to him crying and thanking him for saving America.
posted by Fleebnork at 11:11 AM on October 2 [19 favorites]


What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

He's talking about Hope Hicks, not himself
posted by RustyBrooks at 11:12 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

They're the same large generals who come up to him and say, "Sir, nobody is better at Presidenting than you" and then start crying.

Trump wants to be the strong man that other strong men get effeminate around.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:12 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Was anyone else surprised that Melania also tested positive for CoViD-19? It didn't sound like she habitually spent enough time around President Trump to get infected.
posted by olopua at 11:13 AM on October 2 [23 favorites]


What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him

I can't speak for cops, but like, being military in uniform you can SOMETIMES give your spouse like a peck on the cheek. Public displays of affection are explicitly forbidden. I can't even imagine the chewing out I would have gotten if I had hugged someone I was on detail to, much LESS without their explicit invitation. The idea that military personnel are just randomly running up to state officials to hug them is flat out bizarre as well as a lie.
posted by corb at 11:13 AM on October 2 [42 favorites]


She has to stand next to him at super-spreader events.
posted by valkane at 11:14 AM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Reporters on twitter are saying that Biden just tested negative

If he was exposed only three days ago he would almost certainly test negative.
posted by zixyer at 11:15 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


the idea of Evangelical Christians having to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing #45 to be their infallible "savior" while also believing that G-d afflicts people with diseases as punishment for their sins...

If Trump dies, the EC spin would be that God actually wanted Pence. And Trump's death before Nov. 3 would probably pull in a sizable sympathy vote that could elect Pence. Then, in the EC pantheon, Trump becomes the One Who Prepared the Way for God's real choice.
posted by beagle at 11:18 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Then, in the EC pantheon, Trump becomes the One Who Prepared the Way for God's real choice.

You know, I was having a fine day...
posted by glaucon at 11:19 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Yeah, this "tested negative" as an all-clear needs debunking, and stat. You aren't truly in the clear for like 14 days after exposure and then a negative test. This is fully known, yet everyone thinks a test today is all you need. Still very worried about Biden. 8 feet away is not far enough when someone is spitting bile at you.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:20 AM on October 2 [28 favorites]


Trump wants to be the strong man that other strong men get effeminate around.

Gender and sex and stuff is weird. Catching the end of the debate, I was struck by how Trump, who so desperately wants to come across as manly, was so obviously caked in cosmetics, which by all patriarchy, should code him as feminine, compared to Biden, who I guess had the regular TV-camera "you need makeup so you look normal on a TV camera" level of cosmetics applied, and just looked... like you would expect a septuagenarian cis/het grandpa to look like.

(shit, I chipped a nail typing that.)
posted by Rat Spatula at 11:21 AM on October 2 [26 favorites]


Holy cow, there's a substantial amount of chatter suggesting that the WH rose garden event last week was the superspreader event - the President of Notre Dame, who was present, has also just tested positive.
posted by jquinby at 11:22 AM on October 2 [27 favorites]


While there is a little voice in the back of my head saying, “careful what you wish for” (thanks Mom)… I’m experiencing a post-Christmas Ghosts giddiness that even the “Trump’s secret plan to steal the election” speculation doesn’t harsh.

My 2 cents is that the news cycle for at least the next week will be laser focused on reporting all the new cases attributed to Patient Zero, along with what the White House knew and when. Not a good vibe for a campaign that wanted to divert attention away from its massive incompetence. I don’t think a “President bravely fights virus” storyline will overcome the headlines about the explosion of cases in rural America.

The most important thing is and has always been to GET OUT AND VOTE! And wear that mask while you are out celebrating this weekend.
posted by jabo at 11:25 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


I don't think it's a hoax, because he loooooves his rallies. He wouldn't voluntarily do anything to remove himself from them, no matter how much people told him it would improve his election chances. (Nevermind safety. He believes he is impervious to danger, and nobody else's safety is relevant to him.)

I expect he's demanding his aides figure out how he can attend rallies with COVID. Just need distance, right? So he can be on stage, away from everyone? (Note: of course it doesn't occur to him that his assistants are human beings who might not want to catch the disease.) (I expect his aides to say no, hell no, it is not happening, and for him to be petulant about it.)

I don't think the pro-Pence EC vote would outweigh the losses of the personality cult who are only bothering to go to the polls to support their idol, not actually select a government.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:25 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Does "superspreader" have any scientific backing as a term? It seems to indicate a biological process either by the person having increased transmission rates or s strain being virulent. I'm not well versed in epidemiology but superspreader feels like a made up media term, similar to the 90s or even 2000s when a new drug would come on and it'd be especially dangerous when in reality it was just like better coke replacing shitty coke. Not necessarily there being a new molecule involved at all.
posted by geoff. at 11:27 AM on October 2


so obviously caked in cosmetics

To an extreme level - my theory being he was already flushed with fever. To my eyes he looked like nothing so much as British pantomime dame in the early foundational stage of makeup.
posted by Miko at 11:28 AM on October 2 [5 favorites]


The fallout would be more likely to cause additional chaos than bring stability, but fuck it, I hope he suffers and dies. He is a fascist who has been openly agitating for civil war and denying the basic reality of a potentially deadly virus during a global pandemic (among other, worse things that I don't see discussed much anywhere). He deserved to catch it and he deserves to suffer and die. Over 200,000 other people have suffered and died as a direct result of his rank stupidity and deliberate, malicious mismanagement.

It is for these reasons that I hope he suffers - but then lives.

And the loses the election.

Because then on January 22nd, 2021, about ten different courts will pounce on him with different lawsuits, which he will likely lose - especially since his prior legal counsel has turned on him. And then he will go to prison.

If he dies from COVID he only suffers for a couple weeks, and much of that time he may be unconscious. But if he suffers and recovers.... he then continues to suffer in different ways, for much longer. And as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer him to have more suffering rather than less.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:30 AM on October 2 [65 favorites]


Does "superspreader" have any scientific backing as a term?

As a term, I don't know, but as a concept it seems to be very deeply studied by epidemiologists. I was reading about it in this Atlantic piece last night.
posted by Miko at 11:30 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Good place to start reading: "Identifying and Interrupting Superspreading Events—Implications for Control of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2" -- Tom Frieden and Christopher Lee, for the CDC.
posted by Dashy at 11:31 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


For those who don't want to wish death or severe illness on someone, you could always wish for a Scrooge-like revelatory moment.

After all, it's just wishing.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:31 AM on October 2 [20 favorites]


Overdispersion and super-spreading of this virus are found in research across the globe. A growing number of studies estimate that a majority of infected people may not infect a single other person. A recent paper found that in Hong Kong, which had extensive testing and contact tracing, about 19 percent of cases were responsible for 80 percent of transmission, while 69 percent of cases did not infect another person.
-- This Overlooked Variable Is the Key to the Pandemic
posted by joeyh at 11:32 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Yeah, this "tested negative" as an all-clear needs debunking, and stat. You aren't truly in the clear for like 14 days after exposure and then a negative test. This is fully known, yet everyone thinks a test today is all you need. Still very worried about Biden. 

If nothing else, Biden having a negative test today will keep him completely in the clear of any potential claims by the right that he might have been the one who infected Trump.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 11:32 AM on October 2 [82 favorites]


I expect he's demanding his aides figure out how he can attend rallies with COVID

He hasn't even been able to hop on a conference call or tweet.

He went to a debate and a fundraising event while he had Covid, he could have gone to rallies, too... at this point I think it's not the diagnosis stopping him, it's the actual illness.
posted by rue72 at 11:33 AM on October 2 [18 favorites]


What the everloving fuck is he talking about, soldiers and cops wanting to hug and kiss him? Just, like... what?

He's talking about Hope Hicks, not himself


Which is even fucking creepier, frankly, since he's basically saying that Hicks' job is to stand there, be pretty, and get pawed.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:34 AM on October 2 [33 favorites]


I also recommend the Atlantic piece that Miko just posted. It seems unclear whether "superspreader" is something you can be or something that's more of a "wrong place, wrong time" kind of thing - maybe the difference between a "superspreader" and somebody who doesn't infect anyone is just that the superspreader went to an unmasked indoor wedding and the not-superspreader stayed home.
posted by Jeanne at 11:35 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


He went to a debate and a fundraising event while he had Covid, he could have gone to rallies, too... at this point I think it's not the diagnosis stopping him, it's the actual illness

Yeah seriously, don't underestimate just how BAD even a non-life threatening case of COVID can make you feel.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:35 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]


I think the emerging understanding is that a very few people are in fact superspreaders -- something like 90% of the transmission comes from 10% of patients, or somesuch. Most people don't actually spread. A select few spread a -lot-.
posted by Dashy at 11:36 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


[Couple comments deleted. Let's not steer in the direction of elaborate "here's exactly how i hope he suffers" writeups, I absolutely 100% get it, but gonna ask that we not go that extra step of typing those up. Thanks.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:36 AM on October 2 [27 favorites]


We could at least get the phrase "plague-ridden White House" into the public arena.
posted by Grangousier at 11:37 AM on October 2 [13 favorites]


don't underestimate just how BAD even a non-life threatening case of COVID can make you feel.

I believe that I had it, before it was known to be in my area and before testing was widespread, and it was worse than the worst flu I've ever had. I was basically bed (or couch)-ridden for 8 days, bleary, feverish, with a fatigue that beat all. I couldn't read, watch tv, or functionally deal with social media. So if he's anywhere near that sick, he's laying low.
posted by Miko at 11:38 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]


If anyone deserves the sobriquet Superspreader-in-Chief, it's him.
posted by valkane at 11:39 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Zeynep Tufecki, who wrote the Atlantic article linked above, explained on twitter:
Did you know that *study after study* finds most people don't seem to transmit COVID at all? That a small percent is responsible for almost all infections? That R is not that informative? My new piece on why this may be key to controlling the pandemic.
...
New paper from India, tracing ~500K contacts for ~85,000 cases. They did not find a single positive contact for 70.7% of infected people. Zero! About 5% accounted for 80% of transmission—not in my piece because it's out today! That's overdispersion. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/09/29/science.abd7672.full

Here's her July article on ventilation.
posted by Dashy at 11:41 AM on October 2 [15 favorites]


The whole timeline makes no sense. If he started showing symptoms Wednesday, he must surely have tested positive earlier since he's tested daily.

That would mean that he was out doing maskless F2F events knowing full well that he was contagious. And I would not not believe that for a moment.
posted by sjswitzer at 11:42 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]



FWIW, the exact distance between Trump and Biden podiums at debate was 12 feet, 8 inches


It hardly matters if you've been in a closed room with someone screaming for 90 minutes. Let's hope the ventilation was adequate.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:42 AM on October 2 [22 favorites]


About that New Jersey fundraiser: GOP donors 'freaking out' after coming close to Trump at fundraiser hours before his positive Covid-19 test (Brian Schwartz for CNBC, via MSN).

Republican Senators aren't the only demographic getting close to him in the past few days that skew older and male and higher risk.
posted by kristi at 11:42 AM on October 2 [23 favorites]


Sure, he was positive sooner. He just didn't tell anyone.

Like Biden, who he stood shouting at for 90 minutes.
posted by Dashy at 11:43 AM on October 2 [20 favorites]


Also upthread:

"An abundance of caution" is the new "Now more than ever."

It was enormously popular this spring, when various institutions suspended in-person activities and headed online.
posted by doctornemo at 11:45 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Moscow, or Riyadh, surely? Possibly Pyongyang at a stretch.

R'lyeh.


Not to get all NIMBY here but leave our sunken isles the fuck out of your messes, please and thank you.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:47 AM on October 2 [83 favorites]


he's basically saying that Hicks' job is to stand there, be pretty, and get pawed.

Far as Trump's concerned, that's every woman's job.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:50 AM on October 2 [53 favorites]


Sure, he was positive sooner. He just didn't tell anyone.

Like Biden, who he stood shouting at for 90 minutes.


I'd say "lawsuit," but his broke ass is judgement proof. So I guess just straight to criminal charges then.
posted by rue72 at 11:52 AM on October 2


And as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer him to have more suffering rather than less.

I have zero confidence that Trump will suffer any legal, financial, jail, anything consequences. Him getting this disease may literally be the only suffering he does.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:52 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


The whole timeline makes no sense.

It does once you realize it was written by Dan Brown.
posted by srboisvert at 11:53 AM on October 2 [12 favorites]


From Dr. Chuck Tingle: i will not pass judgement or stoop to the level of a scoundrel, but i will say that tromp is now showing how important it is to wear mask and to be responsible for yourself and your buds in fight against virus. i hope his followers see this. that is what i can say
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:54 AM on October 2 [44 favorites]


It hardly matters if you've been in a closed room with someone screaming for 90 minutes. Let's hope the ventilation was adequate.

For whatever it's worth, it's literally a brand new building, and it's pretty big. Here's a local news clip that shows some of the set up, you can get an idea of the size.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:55 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]


It does once you realize it was written by Dan Brown.

TOGETHER

TO GET HER
posted by tilde at 11:56 AM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Right now, The Guardian live blog has both Trump and Melania with symptoms. (I'm not linking because I can't find the direct link)
posted by mumimor at 11:57 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Sounds like someone wasn’t taking his bleach.

Some days it's all about doomscrolling.
posted by nickyskye at 11:58 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]


3. The tweet that announced the positive test was ghost written (he didn’t announce it)

I thought it was kind of odd that the tweet actually called it "COVID-19" and nothing typically Trumpian like 'The China Virus'.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:00 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


If he started showing symptoms Wednesday, he must surely have tested positive earlier since he's tested daily.

Amphetamine-heavy cold remedy would explain a lot about his unhinged (even by his own standards) performance at Tuesday's debate.
posted by Rumple at 12:01 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Capt. Renault: From Dr. Chuck Tingle: i will not pass judgement or stoop to the level of a scoundrel, but i will say that tromp is now showing how important it is to wear mask and to be responsible for yourself and your buds in fight against virus. i hope his followers see this. that is what i can say

Waiting for this ebook, then:

Pounded in the ACE-2 Receptors By My Unwillingness to Accept Evidence-Based Epidemological Guidance.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:06 PM on October 2 [126 favorites]


If we want to call Trump a liar (we do, we do), then let's say he's been lying about *not* having Covid at least since the debate.

Like why are we acting skeptical that a 74 year old man who regularly attends large gatherings without a mask has caught coronavirus? It was a near inevitability.
posted by muddgirl at 12:09 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Coronavirus test used by White House has questionable accuracy

Abbot ID now identifies about 75% of positive samples. Probably more likely to miss early infections. So it's not unlikely he passed one or two daily tests. That this test is the entirity of the WH's covid prevention strategy is just more incompetance, of course.
posted by joeyh at 12:10 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


I mean, I don’t know what makes Michael Moore think he’s offering some kind of bleeding edge perspective on this. Pretty much every reasonable person upon hearing this news has had to consider that it might be a lie. And probably all of them are holding that thought in their heads alongside the equally real possibility that there will be a Trump obit thread up within a week.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:11 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


If Trump was in quarantine today but not feeling that poorly, he'd be tweeting nonstop. It's a compulsion because he needs to be the center of attention no matter what.

Therefore I conclude that he is feeling too poorly to tweet, which is very poorly indeed. I believe he's actually pretty sick.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 12:11 PM on October 2 [50 favorites]


Being too sick to Tweet, especially for him, is really sick. Imagine not even being willing/able to put up some generic chatter or comment on what's on Fox, just to reassure the base.
posted by Miko at 12:13 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


I don't really have much to say, but this Joni Mitchell song has been stuck in my head all day.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:13 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Yeah. Trump's not lying, he's got it. Illness is weakness and weakness is for losers. He wouldn't cop to it if he didn't have to.

Of course, the rest of the Moore et al. theory is true – now that Trump's got it, he'll milk it for sympathy (of course), and if he has a mild case he'll use it to downplay the virus (of course), and the Dems will probably do some boneheaded thing like slow their campaigning out of fairness and decency, etc. etc. etc.

But dude's got the virus.
posted by Beardman at 12:13 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Unless it's just a full on shouting match/shitshow over there today, circular firing squad, which I bet it also is.
posted by Miko at 12:14 PM on October 2


[Deleted Breitbart link and some followups, let's not.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:14 PM on October 2 [22 favorites]


I believe he's actually pretty sick.

I think the WH Press Office says he was exhibiting 'mild symptoms' which probably means he's already being ventilated.
posted by PenDevil at 12:15 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Trump has tested positive for COVID-19. A look at where he's traveled (USA Today) Trump, 74, is known for staying busy and traveling around the country for both work and play. But he was especially active these past seven days, including hosting rallies, taking part in the debate, and introducing his Supreme Court nominee...
Golf, fundraisers, rallies, photo ops; Hannity, evangelical leaders, Latinos for Trump during a roundtable at Doral, Comey Barrett (and her seven kids) in the Rose Garden plus Bill Barr and various politicians. On Saturday night, "the president and first lady hosted a reception of Gold Star families at the White House." Me, in the Tuesday thread:

their next debate's in Miami, the final one's in Nashville
b/c everyone loves a free-range septuagenarian
it's downright heartening in this pandemic
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:15 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


"Superspreading" is an activity, not an identity. Whether there are biological/physiological factors that affect whether one is capable of being a superspreader is an empirical question for each illness, but behavioral factors are always involved. If you stay home and don't infect anyone, you're not a superspreader, regardless of any biological factors with you or the pathogen you carry. From an epidemiological perspective, a superspreader is just someone who transmits a disease much more than the average person does.
posted by biogeo at 12:16 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


For those thinking about Trump-health scenarios, I thought of three:

1. Trump gets sick and dies before the election
2. Trump gets sick but survives and recovers
3. Trump gets sick but only partially recovers

1. Pandemonium with the election as now a lot of voting already happened. The GOP successfully gets all votes that mark Trump as going to Pence instead but a lot of the Trumpiest supporters sit out the election, their golden calf toppled, the death deflating them. Biden wins in a landslide, but the GOP argues that it wasn't a referendum on Trump or conservativism but rather a one-off.
2. Trump roars back to life but the event took him off the campaign trail and complicated his messaging horribly. It doesn't engender sympathy as many folks chalk it up to karma. Trump loses as he is projected to lose, now even weaker in relative position in the GOP. In two years, the GOP blames him for the COVID-19 deaths.
3. Trump is permanently disabled by COVID, needing constant medical intervention to survive. His strongman persona evaporates and Proud Boys, etc, try to get his weakness from infecting the rest of the alt-right fascist movement. The GOP uses him to inspire sympathy, but he also is a badge of their shame, even if they don't say it. He lingers on for a few years, his magic completely spent, a frail reminder of a dark presidency.

Scenario 2 is most likely, of course. I'm hoping that the entire presidency fails and we reorganize into a truly democratic society, but that's just me. None of these scenarios help Trump win an election, and his being sidelined actually make his attempt at fuckery with the voting less likely.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:17 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]




Jesus.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:20 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I think the WH Press Office says he was exhibiting 'mild symptoms' which probably means he's already being ventilated.

Basically: look back at how the British Government handled Boris Johnson's illness and assume that the White House will lie even more. Johnson had "mild symptoms" and was taken to hospital "for tests". And he nearly died.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:21 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Sooooo much to unpack.

Succession. At what point will Pence be allowed to take control? Trump won't allow it, for sure.

Election. Imagine the possibilities. Can an intubated candidate concede? Should any debate take place face to face?

SCOTUS. If 51 GOP Senators cannot meet, no quorum. No vote. Watch this space.

Lawsuits. Negligence anyone? Those donors he met with...maybe this is a bridge too far...

Legislative. When do you lock it down?

News. Can the WH trace the exposure? Have they? Will they? Is the charade now in the light?

Let alone the normal secret recordings, tax fraud, troop hating, Roe v Wade reversal news cycle. Fucking unreal.
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:21 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


>a superspreader is just someone who transmits a disease much more than the average person does

IM not scientific O my impression is superspreaders are people who just can't keep their idiot moufs shut when out in public
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:22 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


The fact that he hasn't tweeted all day is downright bizarre.
posted by gwint at 12:23 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


At what point will Pence be allowed to take control? Trump won't allow it, for sure.

There's no allowing. Pence + the Cabinet can do it (on a short term basis) on their own. If Trump is incommunicado, this is easier, but it's not necessary.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:24 PM on October 2


I see no way in which he doesn't spin this to rally his supporters, making them believe it's a positive thing, unless he quickly ends up intubated until election day.

It's a good thing he doesn't look anything like Kevin Kline.
posted by hanov3r at 12:25 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Can an intubated candidate concede?

Frankly, Trump is more likely to concede while intubated than not.
posted by swift at 12:26 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


The fact that he hasn't tweeted all day is downright bizarre.

It is downright refreshing and something of a relief. Would you want a thinks-he-might-be-dying Trump to have access to a public medium?

"CHINA DID THIS TO ME. AVENGE ME. THE TIME TO STAND BY HAS ENDED. ARREST ALL REFRIGERATORS, AS ANTIFA CANNOT FUNCTION WITHOUT THEM. TAKE US TO DEFCON-3. SAD!"
posted by delfin at 12:26 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Johnson had "mild symptoms" and was taken to hospital "for tests". And he nearly died.

Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case", so I guess Melania is busy sending out emails to designers for something "Jackie O but with a modern twist".
posted by PenDevil at 12:28 PM on October 2 [26 favorites]


Can an intubated candidate concede?


My cousin was put in an induced coma to get intubated. So no?
posted by Max Power at 12:29 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Speaker Pelosi contacted by White House regarding continuity of government.

That’s probably just because they may not know that it’s the VP who takes over. Not a bunch of bright guys, etc.
posted by Melismata at 12:29 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


This is the procedure for Pence to take over in an acting capacity against Trump's wishes. Trump can make this difficult by saying "nuh uh, I am actually fine" and force Congress to certify it no less than 21 days later.
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Alternatively, Trump could write a letter to Congress saying that Pence is Acting President, and then take the reigns back with another letter. This is what a normal President would do if he was very sick or undergoing planned surgery etc.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:31 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


"Very moderate case". In other words, extremely average, extra medium, incredibly normal.
posted by zixyer at 12:31 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case", Kudlow? **rolls eyes** Did anyone expect him to say anything else?
posted by robbyrobs at 12:34 PM on October 2


NYTimes: Why Should We Believe Trump Has the Virus?
Researchers at Cornell University published a study this week showing that Mr. Trump was the single largest driver of false and misleading information about the coronavirus. Mentions of Mr. Trump made up nearly 38 percent of the overall “misinformation conversation,” the researchers said.

Mr. Trump has also stated on at least 34 separate occasions since February that the coronavirus would go away.

“We’re in an environment where conspiracies are thriving, in part because the president encourages them,” said Melissa Ryan, chief executive of Card Strategies, a consulting firm that researches disinformation. “And we have a White House comms operation that gives the press and public disinformation constantly.”

The situation has created “the perfect storm for people to assume that the White House isn’t being truthful,” Ms. Ryan said.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:35 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


So about Barrett... the article linked upthread said “She is following CDC guidance and best practices, including social distancing, wearing face coverings, and frequently washes hands” but this was also posted under a photo of her mask-less with 45 looming over her shoulder. So yeah I have a lot of faith that the statement is true.

It keeps happening and it was only a matter of time for the conservatives in power. Take as an example the outdoor gathering at the White House with mask-less idiots hugging each other and standing shoulder to shoulder. They bring the repercussions on themselves. They were warned, they chose not to believe the warnings. I have a very hard time feeling any sympathy. Their money kept them mostly safe for a while but life finds a way, right?
posted by caution live frogs at 12:36 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case"

Looking up 'moderate covid symptoms' I came across this:
13. If you talk to others, nobody thinks you are confused or not making sense.
So… an improvement?
posted by mazola at 12:36 PM on October 2 [22 favorites]


I don't think he has it at all.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 12:37 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Multiple QAnon supporters highlighted what they saw as a hidden message in Trump’s own tweet confirming his positive test. The accounts pointed to the word “together” suggesting what Trump really meant was “to get her” in reference to Hillary Clinton.

HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA
posted by chavenet at 12:37 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Brian Kilmeade: Now Trump Has Time To Study For Second Debate
If you are looking for some comic relief today, go no further than Fox and Friends.
posted by robbyrobs at 12:38 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Larry Kudlow just upgraded it to a "very moderate case"

Kudlow is the same individual who kept pushing hydroxychloroquine over the protest of Dr. Fauci, which ended up killing some people. He is probably not a reliable source for WH medical updates.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:38 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]




As nothing is normal, I'd say Ivanka and Jared are going to be in the room with Pence making sure he doesn't remember how to be ethical/moral. I cannot imagine a normal transfer of authority to Pence. Never. I know how it is supposed to work and should work but I won't bank on it.
posted by zerobyproxy at 12:39 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Pence is an idiot and a Bible thumping one at that. Even a number of Indiana republicans were thrilled to finally get his dumb ass out of Indiana
posted by robbyrobs at 12:41 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


“the perfect storm for people to assume that the White House isn’t being truthful,

The problem with liars is, sometimes they say something true, but you can never be sure if that's happening.
posted by emjaybee at 12:41 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Assuming this isn't a hoax, Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, which can cause delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation. I hope the US military is keeping this in mind, given the single point of control for firing nuclear weapons.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:43 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]




Speaker Pelosi contacted by White House regarding continuity of government.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:18 PM on 10/2

That tweet was six hours old when you posted it. In this kind of a situation, it seems we'ed have heard more by now if there was some concern she actually had to take over. And I do believe that pence is not ill as of this moment.
posted by NorthernLite at 12:44 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


"very moderate case"

I... don't think that's a thing. Moderacy is one of the few things it's difficult to possess an abundance of. OTOH, this White House has yet to see an adjective it didn't want to spice up with a superlative, so it's not surprising they can say things like this with a straight face.
posted by jackbishop at 12:45 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I think we all know Trump is about to die.
posted by swift at 12:45 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, including delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation.

So you're saying this disease could've been living in someone for decades?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:47 PM on October 2 [20 favorites]


The movie they make about this in ten years is going to be wild. Assuming there’s still movies.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:48 PM on October 2 [23 favorites]


The problem with liars is, sometimes they say something true, but you can never be sure if that's happening.

We should have a childhood story or parable or something warning us of this danger.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 12:49 PM on October 2 [94 favorites]


And Trump's death before Nov. 3 would probably pull in a sizable sympathy vote that could elect Pence.

trumpism is a personality cult and generally, within cults of personality, fealty to the leader is not easily transferrable to his subordinates—especially if a particular subordinate has all the charisma and appeal of an unripe potato.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:49 PM on October 2 [35 favorites]


The whole timeline makes no sense. If he started showing symptoms Wednesday, he must surely have tested positive earlier since he's tested daily.

I doubt he's being tested daily. I just had a COVID test yesterday - the up-the-nose kind - and my roommate pointed out that "Trump's such a manbaby, do you really think he'd put up with that on a daily basis?"

....My roommate's pithy reaction to the declaration that Trump had a "very moderate" case - ten seconds of blinking followed by, "....oh, fuck, he's dying."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:50 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


So you're saying this disease could've been living in someone for decades?

I think Nature meant a level of damage above background.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:51 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?
posted by zutphen at 12:52 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

Par for the course.
posted by valkane at 12:53 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


- Chris Christie says no one in the debate prep room wore masks
And then after the debate Chris Christie went on I forget which goddamn show and sat around a big round table with aaaaaallllll the other pundits a-punditing his fool head off for, whatever, two hours. Why doesn't anybody act right e v e r? Fuuuuuu...ck!

What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?
! That is totally what will happen. First holo prez!
posted by Don Pepino at 12:53 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

We'll have to ask JFK Jr.
posted by Max Power at 12:54 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Then the Producers presidency becomes the Weekend At Bernie's presidency.
posted by acb at 12:54 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

There'll be sightings, like Elvis, for the next 30-40 years.
posted by jquinby at 12:54 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


AP, via Twitter: Official says masks will still not be mandatory at the White House, even after president tested positive for the virus. The official described facial coverings as “a personal choice,” despite overwhelming evidence that they help stop spread of virus.

Fucking hell. Absolute refusal to learn anything.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:55 PM on October 2 [42 favorites]


Kudlow is the same individual who kept pushing hydroxychloroquine over the protest of Dr. Fauci, which ended up killing some people. He is probably not a reliable source for WH medical updates.

Kudlow is spectacularly good at saying things are fine when they're about to be terrible, and vice versa. If he says something is fine, it's time to run out of the building because it's probably on fire.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:56 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


No tweets more likely means he's absorbing the media today to unleash a flurry of tweets tomorrow at 6am, or late evening today..
posted by rainy at 12:56 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


I'll take Sacha "John Barron" Cohen in the Trump suit over Pence until January.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:57 PM on October 2


So I know it's a slow news week and all, but just wanted to remind everyone that NYT published the article about Trump's tax returns 5 days ago.
posted by piyushnz at 12:57 PM on October 2 [40 favorites]


Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, which can cause delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation.

I'll just reference Dorothy Parker commenting on the demise of Calvin Coolidge and say: "How can they tell?"
posted by gimonca at 12:57 PM on October 2 [29 favorites]


I think it's very unlikely that this is fake:

- there are multiple reports that he appeared ill yesterday
- other people who have been around him recently (Hope Hicks, the Notre Dame guy) have tested positive
- this makes him look weak and unhealthy, while he's obsessed with appearing strong and invincible
- this focuses media attention on COVID, a topic he's been downplaying and trying to avoid talking about whenever possible

This is a guy who would be on TV 24 hours a day, if he could. If he doesn't appear in public or at least on camera today, it's likely that he's seriously ill.

Great night to (re)watch The Death of Stalin on Netflix.
posted by theodolite at 12:58 PM on October 2 [29 favorites]


"That tweet was six hours old when you posted it. In this kind of a situation, it seems we'd have heard more by now if there was some concern she actually had to take over. And I do believe that pence is not ill as of this moment."

I recall articles from previous elections that describe the process required to transition between administrations. It is complicated and time consuming. I believe it's already underway by now, even before they know whether it will be required.

So, even if all that's happened is someone's decided that there's a slightly elevated chance of a transition to Pelosi, I wouldn't be surprised if that kicks off some additional procedures.
posted by bfields at 12:58 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


So I know it's a slow news week and all, but just wanted to remind everyone that NYT published the article about Trump's tax returns 5 days ago.

That's, what, half a scaramucci?
posted by acb at 12:59 PM on October 2 [29 favorites]


No tweets more likely means he's absorbing the media today to unleash a flurry of tweets tomorrow at 6am, or late evening today.. I tend to agree..He (Trump) does not know really what to say. "Its a hoax" or " I'm fighting covid with every everything available"
????
posted by robbyrobs at 1:00 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]



So, even if all that's happened is someone's decided that there's a slightly elevated chance of a transition to Pelosi, I wouldn't be surprised if that kicks off some additional procedures.

Yeah, I mean, there are still a few relatively normal civil servants running around, and if I were a relatively normal civil servant and the president had an illness which could turn very serious very fast and the vice president had been exposed to the same illness, I'd be getting all my ducks in a row just in case. If anything it's a good sign, because it suggests that someone in the background with the ability to act has enough brains to worry about actually running the country.
posted by Frowner at 1:01 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


Great night to (re)watch The Death of Stalin on Netflix.

Armando Iannuci has an incredible knack for distilling the venality, self-interest, manic energy and sheer ineptitude of politicians in crisis mode. Hopefully it doesn’t end in people getting shot in courtyards and doused in petrol though.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:03 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Seeing this infographic about all the people Hope Hicks was around. Basically all Trump's kids and hangers-on. Giuliani (on the list) just reported he tested negative, but hey, early days.
posted by emjaybee at 1:04 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Hopefully it doesn’t end in people getting shot in courtyards and doused in petrol though.

As evidenced by Beria's career, this isn't always the worst thing that can happen for a country, truthfully.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 1:05 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Eric Feigl-Ding linked to a picture of what seems to have been the superspreading even on Saturday, with known positives circled.

Looks like Pence and Barr are up front. And Kelly-Anne.
posted by Dashy at 1:05 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


What if he dies, and his followers don't believe it?

Trump is neither Lazarus nor Jesus. A three-day open casket service under the Capitol Dome will confirm this.
posted by cenoxo at 1:07 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


It's like the group photo that killed the whole royal family in King Ralph
(I do not recommend you watch King Ralph)
posted by Countess Elena at 1:07 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Hoping so hard for the "President Pelosi nominates Merrick Garland" headline.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:09 PM on October 2 [36 favorites]


Continuity of government is something taken very seriously. While the contact to Pelosi isn’t exactly a common occurrence, this is the type of thing they get well in front of before it gets to the point where this is a major possibility. It likely does not get to that point, but if at all possible they want to avoid a cold transfer.
posted by azpenguin at 1:10 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


If Pence assumes duties of President sometime soon, who would be a senate tie-breaker vote?
posted by JenMarie at 1:11 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I'm also seeing several tweets about several known positives and cases in the press corps, both journalists and WH people.
posted by Dashy at 1:11 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Pence apparently still intends to go to Salt Lake to prep for the VP debate. I hope Kamala's team has some response prepared, because being in a room with him seems like a bad idea.
posted by emjaybee at 1:12 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


The President Contracting COVID-19 Is A Major National Security Crisis

"It is in this uncharted territory that America's increasingly belligerent adversaries could decide to act, taking advantage of weaknesses in the U.S. military and foreign policy decision-making chain of command."

I LOL'd at that one. It hasn't been weak for 3.5 years?

"At the same time, we must be aware that aside from the handful of people that follow global military patterns very carefully, everything will look like something ominous and new, even though it may be business as usual. In other words, expect a large serving of hyperbole, fear-mongering, and poor analysis on strategic events in the days to come."

Accurate self-own.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:13 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


In 25th Amendment Acting President land, Pence stays the tie-breaking vote because he remains Vice President and President of the Senate.

If Trump dies, there’s no tie breaker because the House has to approve a replacement VP, and won’t do so.
posted by MattD at 1:15 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


I LOL'd at that one. It hasn't been weak for 3.5 years?

Indeed, it has—yet not as weak as it is right at this moment.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:15 PM on October 2




Contacting Pelosi about a transfer of power could also just refer to preparations in the event they need to have Pence take over while Trump is in the hospital, and seems more likely to be what that's about. I don't think this points to an imminent transfer of power to the Speaker.
posted by biogeo at 1:18 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


If Pence assumes duties of President sometime soon, who would be a senate tie-breaker vote?

IMU, there isn't one. The President Pro Tempore presides and no one has a tiebreaker vote. In a case of a tie, I believe there is no majority so the measure would fail.

From: Office of the Vice President

I LOL'd at that one. It hasn't been weak for 3.5 years?

Indeed, it has—yet not as weak as it is right at this moment.


What is the risk? That no one is authorized to act? Hasn't Trump already authorized Pence to do so ... ? I'm missing it... thanks for any help explaining it.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:19 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


There'll be sightings, like Elvis, for the next 30-40 years.
I could easily imagine this happening, Trump becoming part of the semiotic landscape of the US in that random way US mythologies aggregate.
He's seen coming out of a UFO in New Mexico; his face appears once a year on a Yosemite cliff-face, but only in purple neon light; legends say that if you chant his name three times in front of an atm your bank balance will disappear.
It's a kind of afterlife I suppose.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:19 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


He's seen coming out of a UFO in New Mexico; his face appears once a year on a Yosemite cliff-face, but only in purple neon light; legends say that if you chant his name three times in front of an atm your bank balance will disappear.
It's a kind of afterlife I suppose.


"There's no such thing as bad publicity."
posted by deadaluspark at 1:21 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


serious neurological damage, including delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation

So, like in Tuesday's debate?
posted by Miko at 1:22 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Chris Wallace confirmed that the Trump family arrived late at Sunday’s debate to avoid being tested by the Cleveland Clinic as required by the venue’s rules. Criminal negligence.

Original tweet
Additional tweet
Here Wallace is tearing Dr Atlas a new one
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:25 PM on October 2 [80 favorites]


And Trump's death before Nov. 3 would probably pull in a sizable sympathy vote that could elect Pence

I’ve seen more than one conservative meme contrasting the duo of Biden and Harris, noted scary ethnic woman, with Trump alone, sans Pence. Trump is the savior. I think the most enthusiastic Trump supporters actually don’t give a shit about Pence. He represents an old political standard they have little interest in.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:26 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


if I were him I'd be demanding a dose right now.

I called it. The WH says they've already started him on Regeneron's antibodies.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:26 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


I wouldn't put it past them to have purposefully tried to infect Biden by bringing as many possible infection vectors into the building as possible.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:27 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Chris Wallace confirmed that the Trump family arrived late at Sunday’s debate to avoid being tested by the Cleveland Clinic as required by the venue’s rules. Criminal negligence.

Should say Tuesday, I think the typo is confusing things.
posted by JenMarie at 1:27 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


speaking of families
posted by robbyrobs at 1:29 PM on October 2


as far as I'm concerned, I would prefer him to have more suffering rather than less

I couldn't possibly give fewer shits how much suffering the fucker has to endure. What I care about is having him become as irrelevant as possible as fast as possible. The longer people keep feeling a need to react to what Trump said today instead of getting on with fixing the damage he's already done, the worse off we all stay.
posted by flabdablet at 1:29 PM on October 2 [25 favorites]


w/r/t that Chris Wallace thing, I don't know who Scenario Lens is. Does anyone have a link to Wallace actually saying that?
posted by Miko at 1:29 PM on October 2


Also wondering:

- Who is taking care of Barron?
- What happens to mail-in ballots if one of the people listed on them dies before election day?
- Can the Supreme Court hold sessions if one of its members has COVID?
- Can we skip the public funerals? You know, because of COVID?
posted by swift at 1:31 PM on October 2


That commentary from Wallace may be the first thing I've ever seen on Fox news I completely agree with! Strange times.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:32 PM on October 2


Wallace is so adorable whenever he tries to look like you can work for Fucks News and still be a journalist.
posted by flabdablet at 1:33 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


- Who is taking care of Barron?

Have you ever seen Home Alone 2?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:33 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


What is the risk? That no one is authorized to act? Hasn't Trump already authorized Pence to do so ... ? I'm missing it... thanks for any help explaining it.

The national security implications of the White House coronavirus outbreak and Will Trump’s Case of Covid Endanger U.S. National Security? might be useful or informative. I certainly agree with you that to now, it's been awful. This diagnosis seems to make matters even worse.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:33 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Barron has grown up with nannies. He's used to it.
posted by mumimor at 1:34 PM on October 2 [17 favorites]


It would be just like Trump to rob us of the chance, as a nation, to pass a resounding referendum on all the vile, corrupt, malignant moral bankruptcy he represents. We have fucking earned the right to vote against the horror of the Trump presidency.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 1:35 PM on October 2 [27 favorites]


Can the Supreme Court hold sessions if one of its members has COVID?

Yes, they pretty much get to set their own rules. Sometimes Justices recuse themselves anyway. 8 justices heard a bunch of cases while Merrick Garland was being blocked.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:36 PM on October 2


w/r/t that Chris Wallace thing, I don't know who Scenario Lens is. Does anyone have a link to Wallace actually saying that?

Starts at about 2:00 in the video embedded in this tweet.
posted by iceberg273 at 1:36 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


The medical guidance for Contacts of someone who has tested positive for COVID-19 is
1. quarantine immediately for 14 days
2. get tested not earlier than 7 days after your last exposure to the Index Case.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:36 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]




Question... Regarding the old news about tax returns and the looming $400 million plus debt coming due, would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt, and then have to face the Russian etc. goons out to break legs over the debt?
posted by njohnson23 at 1:37 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Hasn't Trump already authorized Pence to do so

Not officially. He would need to notify Congress that Pence is Acting President. That would be public. He hasn't.

He might have told people to do what Pence says, but legally speaking Pence is not the guy in charge, he is. Pence isn't authorized by law to issue executive orders or command the military.

would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt

People don't inherit debt. His estate would pay the debt by liquidating his assets. If it runs out of assets, his inheritors are quite unhappy (no inheritance) but the debt itself is still the estate's.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:41 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]




Question... Regarding the old news about tax returns and the looming $400 million plus debt coming due, would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt, and then have to face the Russian etc. goons out to break legs over the debt?

Legally, probably no, but with Russian Mafia probably yes. They'll make someone bleed for that money.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:41 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Question... Regarding the old news about tax returns and the looming $400 million plus debt coming due, would it be the case that someone would inherit that debt, and then have to face the Russian etc. goons out to break legs over the debt?

What the goons would do is something they'd decide, so no one knows. However, legally, no one inherits the debt. The creditors would have to go after the estate if there's no other co-signers. (Assuming the loans are under his name only and not under the Trump Org.)
posted by azpenguin at 1:42 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


COVID-19 at the White House
This chart will be updated as new reports are confirmed.
posted by robbyrobs at 1:43 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]




I’ve seen more than one conservative meme contrasting the duo of Biden and Harris, noted scary ethnic woman, with Trump alone, sans Pence. Trump is the savior. I think the most enthusiastic Trump supporters actually don’t give a shit about Pence. He represents an old political standard they have little interest in.

While not disagreeing with you, I think the concern is there are plenty of habitually Republican voters who have been turned off by Trump because he's a crude asshole. Having a "normal" calm Republican like Pence gives them cover and/or willingness to vote for him. (Yes, he's a scary Handmaid's Tale Evangelical with no charisma and was about to get dumped from the Indiana Governor's chair, but knowledge of that is not nearly as obvious and widespread as Trump's assholery.) It could be a "lose a handful of rabid MAGAts, gain a bunch of wafflers" situation.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:44 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Trump probably has enough assets to liquidate that his estate would be able to pay the debt off anyway. He may not have much cash but he has a lot of real estate that's still worth a lot.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:45 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Who is taking care of Barron?
He's 14... he's probably playing Fortnite.
posted by Gray Duck at 1:46 PM on October 2 [29 favorites]


With regards to whether the WH reaches out to Pelosi’s office, a little refresher on Section 3 of the 25th:

Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:47 PM on October 2


he has a lot of real estate that's still worth a lot

Eh, maybe not worth quite so much in the covid-19 era -- haven't they been having trouble selling the DC hotel?
posted by aramaic at 1:47 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Same person that always takes care of him, I guess. My guess is he has a nanny and only sees his family on court occasions.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:48 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Has Graydon Carter tweeted his thoughts and prayers yet?
posted by Beardman at 1:48 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Trump’s infection, outlook with COVID-19 and the likelihood of White House spread

The data solidly suggests that at least Trump and Hicks have exposed many White House staff, officials, and supporters to the pandemic coronavirus this week. The two both traveled to a rally in Minnesota Wednesday, and the president attended a fundraiser in New Jersey on Thursday, at which he reportedly came in contact with about 100 people.

Some good links to a meta-analysis article on spreading and rates and some other info in this article, but not much new for this thread.
posted by Snowishberlin at 1:49 PM on October 2


A student petition is calling on Notre Dame's president to resign.
Father John Jenkins attended the ceremony for Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett on Saturday.
His decision to shake hands with people there and not wear a mask caused outrage for some Notre Dame students, who have been following strict campus coronavirus rules so closely.
posted by robbyrobs at 1:50 PM on October 2 [56 favorites]


NYT:

The president, who said early Friday morning that he had tested positive for the virus, has a low-grade fever, nasal congestion and a cough, according to two people close to Mr. Trump.

He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron, according to a memo from his doctor, Dr. Sean P. Conley. Mr. Trump is also taking vitamin D, zinc, melatonin, a daily aspirin and famotidine (an antacid better known as Pepcid), the memo said.

“As of this afternoon, the president remains fatigued but in good spirits,” the memo said.

posted by Beardman at 1:51 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Covid-19 symptoms include serious neurological damage, which can cause delirium, confusion, agitation, and disorientation.

I'll just reference Dorothy Parker commenting on the demise of Calvin Coolidge and say: "How can they tell?"

One of the earliest signs of a Covid infection is suffering from a complete lack of taste, but uh how could they tell?
posted by Lanark at 1:52 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron

Pardon my ignorance but I don't know if there is grift there, too?
posted by Snowishberlin at 1:54 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


That experimental dose cost more than he's paid in taxes for the past 20 years so I'd count that as a grift.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:57 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


get tested not earlier than 7 days after your last exposure to the Index Case
Several Minnesota Republicans are getting tested today after being in contact with this group on Wednesday. Lovely waste of tests there, guys.
posted by soelo at 1:58 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron

Do you want metastatic Tetsuo? Because that's how you get metastatic Tetsuo.
posted by The Tensor at 1:58 PM on October 2 [23 favorites]


Buzzfeed has this large picture from Thursday. Bleary, bloodshot eyes. Looking very tired. This is not a well person, nor does he appear to be 'in high spirits'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:59 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


hmm... exhibiting mild symptoms so we better get him started on this experimental treatment immediately!
posted by piyushnz at 2:00 PM on October 2 [26 favorites]


hmm... exhibiting mild symptoms so we better get him started on this experimental treatment immediately!

I mean, based on his age and weight and other health factors, that actually doesn't seem far from the mark. I would hope if Biden had it they would approach it similarly.
posted by deadaluspark at 2:01 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


No tweets more likely means he's absorbing the media today to unleash a flurry of tweets tomorrow at 6am, or late evening today

Soooo....You’re attributing a show of self-restraint to...Donald Trump? Are you sure this the hill you wish to die on?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:03 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


If he gets better and doesn't immediately authorize the same treatment for every American who needs it, I won't be at all surprised.
posted by bink at 2:03 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Give President Trump his due: his bold choices may well have taken the nation’s greatest security threat out of action.

Jimmy Carr said, “Say what you will about Hitler, he did kill Hitler.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:04 PM on October 2 [67 favorites]


There's a long running conspiracy theory that Barron Trump is a time traveler.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:07 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


That experimental dose cost more than he's paid in taxes for the past 20 years so I'd count that as a grift.

No kidding — biologics are very expensive.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:07 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


The problem with his treatment he received is that it's handcrafted patient by patient (per the WaPo writeup posted above). It'd be great to give this to every infected American but it's impossible to do so. That's definitely not gunpowder you burn against a "mild" case like Kudlow is saying. Shit seems serious or 45 is demanding SCIENCE save him like a deathbed confession.
posted by msbutah at 2:08 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I think there's enough conspiracy theories in this thread as is.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:08 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


"A student petition is calling on Notre Dame's president to resign. ... His decision to shake hands with people there and not wear a mask caused outrage for some Notre Dame students, who have been following strict campus coronavirus rules so closely."

Cannot tell you how utterly outraged (my parts of) the alumni networks are. My phone absolutely lit up this morning with enraged ND grads texting me about Jenkins. And everyone is FURIOUS. My facebook feed is full of the kind of fury Notre Dame alumni usually save for USC fans. I've seen several people say they're cancelling their donations over this. (More of my immediate friends already don't donate because of prior things, but I'm seeing Boomers etc. saying they're pulling their donations.)

Who would ever imagine that writing a pompous, badly-theologically-reasoned, smug-ass op-ed in the New York Times would come back to bite him in the ass so hard?

The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops, man.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:13 PM on October 2 [58 favorites]




Do you want metastatic Tetsuo?

Oh man please that would be the best way to close out 2020, come on 2020, you owe me, give me this at least
posted by Lonnrot at 2:16 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


There's no allowing. Pence + the Cabinet can do it (on a short term basis) on their own. If Trump is incommunicado, this is easier, but it's not necessary.

Can interim appointments do that? Or do they have to be properly confirmed? Because that could be a problem quorum wise given that the current admin was too lazy to get their choices confirmed in the senate
posted by srboisvert at 2:17 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.
posted by bookwo3107 at 2:18 PM on October 2 [138 favorites]


And the next debate can be Trump and Biden wandering the smashed remnants of the city, calling out each other's names.
posted by rikschell at 2:19 PM on October 2 [19 favorites]


Jim @Acosta, CNN: Trump "out of abundance of caution" will be working out of offices at Walter Reed hospital for next few days, a WH spokesperson said.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:20 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Alex Gibney (of Going Clear) apparently has a documentary coming out Oct 13 called “Totally Under Control” featuring interviews with a whistleblower, scientists and people on the inside.
posted by glaucon at 2:20 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Well now that he's had the antibody cocktail, if he survives you know hes going to be going after teh FDA and any kind of drug research regulations and blame that for keeping the pandemic going and slowing down the cure, which exists because he is now fine!
posted by WeekendJen at 2:21 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


bookwo3107 As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.

In that you know the inevitable outcome will be disappointing?
posted by SansPoint at 2:23 PM on October 2 [63 favorites]


Does anybody know anything about this antibody cocktail? How many people has it been used on? What kind of symptoms would lead to this (I guess) experimental treatment? [is it better than bleach? :)]
posted by bluesky43 at 2:24 PM on October 2


According to Wikipedia, "The White House Medical Unit includes emergency medical and trauma capability at both the White House and the residence of the Vice President of the United States at the United States Naval Observatory.[4] One former Physician to the President described the White House unit as an urgent care center with a crash cart.[5]". So what exactly is it they have at Walter Reed that they don't have at the WH? Oh, right "offices."
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:24 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I thought the WH had a hospital facility for the use of presidents and family. I don't mean to get ahead of events, but if he's going to Walter Reed, it must really be bad. That's what Boris Johnson did out of "caution," too.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:24 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.

Are you on Twitter? Because as a tweet this would be worth at minimum 20K likes.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:24 PM on October 2 [54 favorites]


Can interim appointments do that? Or do they have to be properly confirmed? Because that could be a problem quorum wise given that the current admin was too lazy to get their choices confirmed in the senate

My recollection is that it's an open question and there are arguments either way. The Constitution doesn't define what counts as an executive agency either, so whether something is "cabinet level" is sort of wishy washy.

As a practical matter I don't think it will be a problem in this case. If Trump is too sick to work and Pence invokes it, everyone will go along with it and by the time a court ruled otherwise (and it probably wouldn't) it the issue would probably be resolved either way.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:24 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Well, Dominos dipping sauces do taste kinda like bleach
posted by Beardman at 2:24 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


He's headed to Walter Reed medical center.

Oh, you know, probably just the second part of his routine physical. As such things are done.
posted by bcd at 2:25 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]




LATEST: Pres. Trump has been treated with a single 8-gram dose of Regeneron's polyclonal antibody cocktail, and "completed the infusion without incident," according to a statement from his physician.

Um, why is he taking melatonin?
posted by bluesky43 at 2:26 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


So what exactly is it they have at Walter Reed that they don't have at the WH?

Ventilators?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:28 PM on October 2 [33 favorites]


Does anybody know anything about this antibody cocktail? How many people has it been used on? What kind of symptoms would lead to this (I guess) experimental treatment?

There was a big article about it just today or yesterday. It's very legit, but it's only just finished phase one trials. There's a lot of hope that it will be very effective, and would normally be given early in the disease progression. A treatment that has more evidence, steroids, are very effective but aren't given until later in the disease if you get very sick.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:29 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


This is what he has been given, along with other more basic meds. I think, from Press Sec. announcement.

REGN-COV2
posted by Max Power at 2:29 PM on October 2


From Regeneron's (the maker of the antibody cocktail) site [PDF]:
"this type of compassionate use program is also known as an Expanded Access Program (EAP) and is intended for patients with serious or life-threatening conditions who do not have any viable or available treatment options"
posted by msbutah at 2:30 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


now that he's had the antibody cocktail, if he survives

"It will start getting cooler, just you watch. I don't think science knows."

Does anybody know anything about this antibody cocktail?

He received an 8g dose of REGN-COV2, which Regeneron apparently calls a "high dose" of their drug in their Phase 2 test protocols.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:30 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


"...as a tweet this would be worth at minimum 20K likes."
How many likes do I need to get a gyrocopter?
posted by Floydd at 2:30 PM on October 2 [17 favorites]


Apparently, he was taken to Walter Reed via Marine One and not the usual motorcade. So, yeah.
posted by SansPoint at 2:30 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


How many likes do I need to get a gyrocopter?

Seven!
posted by glaucon at 2:31 PM on October 2


He would need to notify Congress that Pence is Acting President. That would be public.

LOLOLOL. Yeah. They'd be sure to tell us right away.
posted by tzikeh at 2:33 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Mad respect to the person on Twitter who responded to #PrayforTrump with a link to Shellac's "Prayer to God"
posted by Beardman at 2:34 PM on October 2 [17 favorites]


They'd be sure to tell us right away.

The letter would be delivered to Nancy Pelosi. We'd be told.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:35 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Regeneron has not received an Emergency Use Authorization. Is the law being broken?
posted by srboisvert at 2:35 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Best schadenfreude all day -- he/it/they now have a pre-existing health condition.
posted by vers at 2:35 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


The letter would be delivered to Nancy Pelosi. We'd be told.

You're assuming they'd write/deliver that letter. What have they done so far that makes you think they'd follow the Constitution?
posted by tzikeh at 2:36 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


A big tell is going to be how he walks to the helicopter. Man, I wish I had TV again.
posted by aramaic at 2:36 PM on October 2


As he moves from mild, to experimental cocktails, to Walter Reed, I feel like I'm watching my pizza getting made at Domino's.

Herman Cain's Godfather's Pizza, surely?
posted by benzenedream at 2:37 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Yeah. They'd be sure to tell us right away.

This is starting to feel like it could be a modern day remake of Kingdom.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:38 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


He was administered a high dose of an experimental polyclonal (!!! and I hope I'm not overreacting to this not being a mAB) drug and is then moved to Walter Rerd.

I'm finding it impossible not to read into the juxtaposition.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:39 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Jim @Acosta, CNN: Trump "out of abundance of caution" will be working out of offices at Walter Reed hospital for next few days, a WH spokesperson said.

He is famous for his abundantly cautious approach to things after all.
posted by mazola at 2:39 PM on October 2 [35 favorites]


You're assuming they'd write/deliver that letter. What have they done so far that makes you think they'd follow the Constitution?

Maybe the White House Chief of Staff will do it, but the military won't take orders from Pence without the correct piece of paper that says Pence is acting President.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:41 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


I think the official statement was "Yeah, the President is totally able to discharge the powers and duties of his office why do you ask?"
posted by swift at 2:41 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Barron Trump can just take my money now for the eventual tell-all book that's the chaos in the White House right now.
posted by geoff. at 2:41 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


A big tell is going to be how he walks to the helicopter. Man, I wish I had TV again.

Live feed on YouTube.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:41 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


From that BBC story:

US President Donald Trump has been taken to hospital less than 24 hours after testing positive for coronavirus...

He received a cocktail of drugs as a "precautionary measure", the White House said, and was feeling "fatigued but in good spirits".

He was transported to Walter Reed National Military Medical Centre.


Also, after I joked about it, this: "Out of an abundance of caution...""
posted by doctornemo at 2:43 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]




the military won't take orders from Pence without the correct piece of paper that says Pence is acting President

Is this true? I thought the military accepted orders from Cheney on 9/11, to shoot down airliners. Presumably that would have required presidential authority, which hadn't been given?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:45 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I'm expecting them to roll him out, not for him to walk
posted by emjaybee at 2:45 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


MSNBC is also showing the copter on the WH lawn, but saying we may not "get" to see how 45 makes it from the WH to the copter.
posted by emjaybee at 2:46 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


So, the BBC notes that he's already been taken to hospital, yet the live YouTube feed shows the helicopter waiting to transport him from the White House.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:47 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


If Biden and his camp was savvy they would show tomorrow Biden exercising, swimming, taking strong walks, anything physical.
posted by robbyrobs at 2:48 PM on October 2 [24 favorites]


Live feed on YouTube

Is there any way to get that video with the soundtrack from lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 2:48 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


I'm expecting them to roll him out, not for him to walk

Here's the photo.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:48 PM on October 2 [41 favorites]


Presumably that would have required presidential authority, which hadn't been given?

This is super-foggy history. I believe that Cheney insists that he was simply relaying Bush's orders, and that this is backed by Rice.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:49 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


I don't want to break the flow, but I notice on Twitter that this is giving Joe lots of opportunities to look presidential.

Go for it, Joe.
posted by Grangousier at 2:50 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


The military is not handicapped by dependence on any one person. Civilian authority runs through the National Command Authority from the President to the Secretary of Defense to various subordinate civilian appointees in the DoD. The Combatant Commanders have significant statutory and regulatory authority to manage crises until the NCA can weigh in. In general the NCA doesn't put the Vice President in the decision loop except to the extent the President puts him there.
posted by MattD at 2:50 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


I'm really really interested in Trump getting this antibody treatment. I suppose as President he can just ignore the FDA. I don't see how this would qualify for a compassionate exemption.

Is this true? I thought the military accepted orders from Cheney on 9/11, to shoot down airliners. Presumably that would have required presidential authority, which hadn't been given?

It says right in that link that, at least according to the administration, Bush gave authorization via phone from Air Force 1.
posted by muddgirl at 2:52 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Marine One is still on the lawn.

Must be waiting for a show to finish.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 2:52 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


If that helicopter crashes we will have reached true peak 2020.
posted by Lanark at 2:53 PM on October 2 [19 favorites]


Is there any way to get that video with the soundtrack from lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to?

Yep.
posted by Diskeater at 2:53 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]



Is there any way to get that video with the soundtrack from lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to?


Yes
posted by Happy Dave at 2:54 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Jinx
posted by Happy Dave at 2:54 PM on October 2


It says right in that link that, at least according to the administration, Bush gave authorization via phone from Air Force 1.

Ah, I must have misremembered that. Apologies.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:55 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


If that helicopter crashes we will have reached true peak 2020.

Or just the point where reality finally merges entirely with Homeland.
posted by penguin pie at 2:55 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


He was administered a high dose of an experimental polyclonal (!!! and I hope I'm not overreacting to this not being a mAB)
As I understand it, Regeneron's REGN-COV2 is a mix of two mABs.
posted by kickingtheground at 2:55 PM on October 2


Also:

3. The tweet that announced the positive test was ghost written

You can tell because it said "we'll get through this TOGETHER".

Donnie literally doesn't understand the concept of "together".
posted by Grangousier at 2:56 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


The media needs to be absolutely emphasizing how different this is to “going to the hospital” for normal people. It’s like the difference between saying I have a net-worth and Jeff Bezos has a net-worth.....

There can be no inch of an out given that this wasn’t serious and it was just Trump being Presidential, or cautious, or because he has “amazing bigly health”.

1. There was an on-site dedicated medical team and advanced urgent care clinic and it was still not considered sufficient

2.Helicopter medical evacuation was called for less than 24 hours after diagnosis

3. A stage 1 highly experimental treatment cocktail was used and administered at high-dose. This would carry side effect risks that would have had to be factored before administration of the treatment.

4. A world-class dedicated hospital team has been activated to care for him at Walter Reed 24x7

Almost everything above is so far beyond anything any of us mere mortals would ever get on demand - even under the most high end insurance plans. This ain’t going to the hospital - this is the complete mobilization of a dedicated healthcare system around one person. That may be appropriate for the leader of a nuclear superpower. But it is not going to the hospital.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:59 PM on October 2 [125 favorites]


And I mean even if it were just "going to the hospital" the way you or I might think of it -- this is not a man who "goes to the hospital" for a cold.
posted by eirias at 3:01 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


He had to call fox news to profess he was only inspecting the bunker. There's no way he's going to the hospital as a precaution.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:03 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I predict he will be air lifted by drones to the helicopter.
posted by mazola at 3:03 PM on October 2


Now if only I could get through to my liberal social media contacts who earlier this week were Very Concerned about the Proud Boys, "vote like you may never get another chance", "if they try and replace RBG we riot"; but now are 100% in the tank for "Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship, why is common decency dead with all these people doing anything less than calling for a complete and total recovery?".

I'm not sure that it matters on the grander scheme of things, but it sticks in my craw a bit, y'know?
posted by CrystalDave at 3:03 PM on October 2 [16 favorites]




Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship

Like Trump did in 2016, when Ms. Clinton was sick? /s
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:07 PM on October 2 [49 favorites]


He's obviously gotten a lot worse really fast, which isn't a very good sign.

Anyone who wants Biden to suspend his campaign ought to be evaluated themselves for delirium. Biden obviously can't go on TV and say, "I hope he dies, he's a monster" or even debate an empty chair or anything that seems to make light of his illness (and god willing Biden won't get sick) - he's got to treat this with a certain amount of gravitas or he'll open himself up to a lot of needless negative coverage. But we want Biden to win. This is important, not croquet on the lawn. He ought to press every advantage he has as long as he has it.
posted by Frowner at 3:07 PM on October 2 [86 favorites]


Biden released a "this is not a partisan moment" tweet that made me update all the open news sites as the phrasing made it sound like the president had died.
posted by Slackermagee at 3:10 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship, why is common decency dead with all these people doing anything less than calling for a complete and total recovery?".

Fuck.
That.
Noise.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:10 PM on October 2 [35 favorites]


I'm with you on rejecting that/being frustrated by it, but it seems to be a common line that a lot of long-time Democrats have picked up, so I suspect it's going to be dogging Biden for a while.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:12 PM on October 2


For this being an apparent emergency, that helicopter's been on the lawn for a whiiiiiile now...
posted by FeatherWatt at 3:13 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


is common decency dead

Yes. Certain people bashed it over the head with a shovel and buried it in the back garden four years ago.

It's possible to be decent without being supplicant.
posted by Grangousier at 3:13 PM on October 2 [34 favorites]


“NEWS: @JoeBiden is taking down his negative ads, going all-positive, per source familiar.
...
Also told no plans to change Biden's schedule, he'll stay on trail in next few days. BUT: this is hour to hour, contingent on Trump's condition.”
@jmartNYT

class act + perfect compromise imho
posted by changeling at 3:14 PM on October 2 [32 favorites]


They're delaying and that Biden tweet was this-is-a-national-tragedy energy.

Is he dead?
posted by Slackermagee at 3:15 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Thinking back to the photo of Hicks, unmasked, walking to a helicopter, side by side with an also maskless Stephen Miller, just behind an also unmasked Jared Kushner, and then remembering that ghouls, like the rest of the undead, are unlikely to contract illness
posted by Ghidorah at 3:16 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


According to CNN, traveling by Marine One to Walter Reed is usual procedure.
posted by jeoc at 3:16 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


If he's not on that helicopter in the next fifteen minutes, I'm closing the tab and going to order dinner.
posted by SansPoint at 3:17 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Thought I could go one day without wine.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:17 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


"Now that I have your attention"
posted by elkevelvet at 3:18 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Is he dead?

He just now walked onto the helicopter
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:18 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Ahmad Khani: Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.
posted by SansPoint at 3:18 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


IF he is even in a state where he can be moved, perhaps they are waiting until dark, so there won't be photos of him on a stretcher with an IV pole. [on edit] Whoops. Never mind.
posted by PhineasGage at 3:18 PM on October 2


I can only imagine it's taking him so long to get to Marine One because he would insist on walking to not show weakness and he physically can't? Which would delay his treatment and this is the dumbest Greek tragedy ever oh my god
posted by bookwo3107 at 3:18 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Thought I could go one day without wine.
exactly 31 days without booze, for me. goddamnit. i feel u.
posted by lazaruslong at 3:19 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


I predict he will be air lifted by drones to the helicopter.

He's gone full-on Harkonnen flying suit now.
posted by banshee at 3:19 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Delay is more likely due to a tantrum than anything else. People are "but sir"-ing and crying, thinking it would appease him, and he's not having it.
posted by emelenjr at 3:19 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


For what it's worth, Trump - like the walking, talking 80s cliche he is - has often used lateness as a power move. He likes people to be waiting on him.
posted by ZaphodB at 3:19 PM on October 2 [16 favorites]


Pulling back on negativity is a good move. I kind of imagine Biden would prefer a more positive campaign, anyway.
Suspending the campaign is nuts.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:19 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


I'm assuming President Pence is having a working supper.

Marine 1 is the most secure Helo in the world there are two of them what if Trump already left. is he in slippers? K, he's gotta give the keys to Pence when he reaches WR. Does anyone know if the the 25th being invoked has a time limit for public disclosure.
Biden in Grand Rapids? bold, that was generally Republican
bastion.

John Sellek, a veteran GOP strategist. “If they really tamp down Trump’s ability to hold on there and pick up votes, it becomes very hard ... for Trump to win Michigan
.”

Dude, have you travelled through wind mill and the smaller bastions through various adjoining counties...the increase in rural vote will off set the loses in Grand Rapids.

I've never seen the country this divided since Nixon.
rotors up
posted by clavdivs at 3:20 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


"The president of the United States is in the most secure bubble in the world... and he still got it. So, wear the damn mask!" - Chris Wallace
posted by robbyrobs at 3:20 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


While we're waiting: Regeneron, the maker of Trump's REGN-COV2 antibody cocktail, is an "Operation Warp Speed" awardee: HHS, DOD Collaborate with Regeneron on Large-Scale Manufacturing Demonstration Project of COVID-19 Investigational Therapeutic Treatment (July 7, 2020) By funding this manufacturing effort, the federal government will own the doses expected to result from the demonstration project. The US gov't has committed $147 million to the company thus far.

Two weeks before that announcement, the US sued them: United States Files Suit Against Drug Manufacturer Regeneron for Paying Kickbacks Through Co-Pay Foundation (justice.gov, June 24, 2020) The U.S. Attorney’s Office announced today that the government has filed a civil False Claims Act complaint against drug manufacturer Regeneron Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (Regeneron), of Tarrytown, N.Y. The complaint alleges that Regeneron paid tens of millions of dollars in kickbacks for its macular degeneration drug Eylea, using a foundation as a conduit to cover co-pays for Eylea. More on the Anti-Kickback Statute.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:20 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


I didn't see him walk to the helicopter but they had a photographer out there so he couldn't have looked too bad.
posted by muddgirl at 3:21 PM on October 2


He just now walked onto the helicopter

Was he... wearing a mask, by any chance?
posted by penguin pie at 3:21 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Thought I could go one day without wine.
We have a curfew here, and I just ran down to the corner store to buy a bottle before it closed. I don't why I feel I need a drink, but I do.
posted by mumimor at 3:21 PM on October 2


And there he goes in a helicopter, off into the sunset…
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:22 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


He just now walked onto the helicopter

Did it take that long to find his body double? I'm slightly kidding, but it seems fair to wonder how much we can trust what we're being shown and told by this administration, and be vigilant.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:23 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Apparently the new monoclonal antibodies are pretty potent

Polyclonal antibodies are his current treatment. (As mentioned a few times above...)

What is Regeneron’s antibody cocktail? Here’s what we know about Trump’s treatment (basically AP article ... may be linked above)
posted by mrgrimm at 3:23 PM on October 2




NBC played a video of him walking to the helicopter but it was super sped up like a silent film
posted by theodolite at 3:24 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


sped up footage
posted by clavdivs at 3:24 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


It is so weird that now is the time he decided to start wearing a mask.
posted by zixyer at 3:25 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


NBC played a video of him walking to the helicopter but it was super sped up like a silent film

Side effect of Regeneron apparently.
posted by popcassady at 3:25 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


exactly 31 days without booze, for me. goddamnit. i feel u.

hang in there!
posted by mrgrimm at 3:26 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I rewound the NBC live stream on youtube and used 0.5 speed, it looks more normal.
posted by polymodus at 3:26 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


NBC played a video of him walking to the helicopter but it was super sped up like a silent film

Aaaannd ... cue the Benny Hill music.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:27 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Thought I could go one day without wine.
exactly 31 days without booze, for me. goddamnit. i feel u.


Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
posted by kaibutsu at 3:28 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Aaaannd ... cue the Benny Hill music.

Slower playback gives it more of a "Comfortably Numb" vibe:

Can you stand up?
I do believe it's working, good
That'll keep you going through the show
Come on, it's time to go

posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:33 PM on October 2 [17 favorites]


Now in Bethesda, exited Marine One, saluting; climbed into car.
His hands look too big.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:34 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


all the network news bobble heads said we really dont know much of what is going on
(I went back to reading my book)
posted by robbyrobs at 3:35 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I'm watching the cspan feed and two women with a giant Trump banner just held their sign up in front of the camera. Camera guy says "ladies, please." Woman starts shouting "you just touched me, I know my rights!" Hard to tell what's happening.
posted by phunniemee at 3:36 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


I wonder if at the White house they normally keep oxygen, as it is so explosive. Oxygen would be the step prior to other more invasive measures, and while they might keep a small tank on hand prior to transfer they likely don't have enough to supply him for the duration of treatment if it's needed without delivery and such.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:37 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Trump just tweeted a weird, echoey 18 second video in which he announces that he "thinks he's doing very well" and is going to Walter Reed Hospital.
posted by theodolite at 3:37 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


My god he looks terrible.
posted by Frowner at 3:38 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


I didn't see him walk to the helicopter but they had a photographer out there so he couldn't have looked too bad.

Just imagine Trump walking to a helicopter while wearing his presidential mask, and that's basically what it looked like.
posted by wondermouse at 3:39 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


At the very hour the No Masker in Chief is being choppered to Walter Reed for covid, the Republican dominant Michigan Supreme Court struck down Gov. Whitmer's powers of Executive Order. We have a highly gerrymandered Republican legislature who've been against the orders. We're still having a thousand new cases a day and I feel even more unsafe.

If you live in Michigan, and haven't voted yet, vote for the SC Dem noms Mccormack and Welch.
posted by NorthernLite at 3:39 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Is that video on a green screen?
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:40 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


He kind of looks the same to me. So. I donno.
posted by samthemander at 3:40 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Trump just tweeted

Well it was nice while it lasted
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:41 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


[Going to be more aggressively deleting conspiracy theories/baseless speculation like "that was a body double" or "old footage!" or whatever. Source it or don't post it.]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 3:42 PM on October 2 [87 favorites]


My god he looks terrible.
Less orange and incoherent than usual so I’d say he looks better than he usually does.
posted by edd at 3:42 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Less orange and incoherent than usual so I’d say he looks better than he usually does.
That was my thought as well.
posted by Talia Devane at 3:43 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Footage of him disembarking, and the video he tweeted, look fine to me. And maybe that’s the point: get a public transfer to Walter Reed over with while he can still ambulate and address the nation looking relatively perky, in case there’s a slide into more debilitating illness (or side effects from the trial medication) ahead.
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:48 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


The all overhead office lighting did him no favors either. They grabbed a camera phone and posted the first passable video they could make.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:50 PM on October 2


Perhaps better for regular human beings, but pretty terrible on the scale of how he usually looks.
posted by sideshow at 3:50 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


That video is haunting and fascinating. For a man who usually visibly delights in lying, it did not appear as though he enjoyed uttering that particular series of untruths.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 3:50 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Since there was some question raised above about the compassionate use exemption (Mayo Clinic) for experimental drugs, more technically called the expanded access program (FDA), this is something that is approved on a per-case basis by the FDA in response to a request from the patient's doctor(s). As far as I'm aware there is no process for approving a drug for compassionate use generally, only for approving its use for a specific case. As a part of the process, the manufacturer of the drug must also give consent for its use, and of course supply it. In this case, it seems very unlikely that Regeneron would supply the drug unless they were convinced they were legally protected by a properly-followed compassionate use request. So no, I don't think there's any possibility that the drug was used illegally.

However, as pointed out above, compassionate use approval requires that the disease is "serious or immediately life-threatening," in direct contrast to the "very moderate" symptoms the administration publicly claimed. Which means either Trump's doctors lied to the FDA to inflate how serious his case is in order to get approval, or the administration is lying about how serious his case his in order to minimize it publicly. (Or first one, then the other, as his disease progressed.) Honestly, considering the kinds of lies his doctors have been prepared to tell to the public in the past, both seem plausible to me, but in light of him being airlifted to Walter Reed it's pretty clear he's not having a moderate case of COVID.

With limited information we need to be careful about conspiracy thinking and jumping to conclusions. But we should also definitely call out the obvious lies where we see them.
posted by biogeo at 3:51 PM on October 2 [19 favorites]


Honestly that was the least bullshit thing I've heard him say in 4+ years.
posted by iamabot at 3:51 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Honestly that was the least bullshit thing I've heard him say in 4+ years.
He appeared sheepish a beat man of which he is
posted by robbyrobs at 3:54 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Iamabot: agreed. I misspoke. I meant: he’s clearly attempting to downplay things but he clearly doesn’t know whether to believe it. It’s that ... unexpected skepticism, and perhaps fear, that I sensed, which seemed so remarkable.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 3:55 PM on October 2


I know he's going to be fine, because we demonstrably live in hell, where poetic justice does not exist. But I must admit, it feels good to experience just a wee bit of hope and levity, as a fleeting treat.
posted by Beardman at 3:57 PM on October 2 [38 favorites]


Every time people point to a photo or video and say he looks terrible I agree, and yet I also can't see any difference from every other photo and video of him.
"Looks terrible" is his default and if there's a difference it's completely lost on me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:57 PM on October 2 [39 favorites]


I can see the WH doctors/lawyers making the case that any reduction in a Presidents capacity due to illness is "serious" by definition, or the pharmacy compacy just accepting the risk on the grounds of receiving a future presidential pardon and press for saving the president. Even without that, given the shit people have gotten away with this administration, the risk of prosecution of a pharmacy company if Trump consented has to be near zero, surely?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:58 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I want him to do well, or at least well enough to participate in the election and get trounced fair and square. Then he can die for all I care.

But he needs to not be incapacitated before the election results come in and are accepted, because otherwise we get chaos.

I do hope he doesn't infect anyone else, though.
posted by suelac at 4:01 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


The helicopter landed unusually close to the White House, as near the entrance as possible. He walked to it. Watching CBS, didn't hear any comment about anything else unusual.

There were reports that he's fatigued, has a fever and cough, and since he's the President (spits) they want him in a good hospital. I suspect he's sicker than they're saying, but clearly not dead, not at death's door.

Some of the hot takes here are over the top, settle the fuck down. The known facts are worrying enough. A very sick President creates real National Security Risk. The stock market is in trouble, etc., and an incompetent Administration is unlikely to manage well.
posted by theora55 at 4:01 PM on October 2 [26 favorites]


Which means either Trump's doctors lied to the FDA to inflate how serious his case is in order to get approval, or the administration is lying about how serious his case his in order to minimize it publicly. (Or first one, then the other, as his disease progressed.)

More likely the government, the executive branch and certainly the President himself has the ability to override some bureaucratic FDA regulation.
posted by geoff. at 4:03 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


especially if a particular subordinate has all the charisma and appeal of an unripe potato


Potatoes can be unripe? Smöl, yes, green with poison, or shot through with rot, but unripe?

That series of proof of vertical videos is concerning. Though necessary.
posted by tilde at 4:03 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


settle the fuck down

Or, alternatively, don't.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:04 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Well, the political duties of the patient are not supposed to be part of the medical consideration as to the seriousness of the disease. Regeneron would only be looking for Expanded Access clearance from the FDA, and the FDA is supposed to make decisions only on the basis of medical need. Whether officials in the FDA inappropriately approved compassionate use due to Trump's position as President rather than on the basis of medical need is a separate question, and also can't be ruled out.
posted by biogeo at 4:05 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


>Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship

Kinda like the way the Republicans weren't going to nominate a new supreme court justice before the election, as a show of bipartisanship.

Or like how they totally weren't going to deputize neonazis to stop people from voting, as a show of bipartisanship.

Every time there's a fucking hurricane we have to hear about how it's god's wrath for letting The Gays get married. I betcha it hasn't occurred to the folks who float those kinds of ideas to wonder whether this is an indication of what god thinks of the proud boys.

I'm not a believer in karma myself. But it'd be nice to think that all dictators and all would-be dictators get what they deserve.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:07 PM on October 2 [58 favorites]


And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.
posted by biogeo at 4:08 PM on October 2


I've seen the video of him disembarking from the helicopter at Walter Reed, and he looked like he usually looks to me and didn't seem to be having any trouble with the steps or walking. My take is that he doesn't need medical care beyond what the White House facilities can provide yet, but he/they decided to transfer him now, while he could still move on his own, just in case and for better optics.
posted by orange swan at 4:08 PM on October 2 [24 favorites]


I suppose there could be an underlying condition we don't know about that would put him at particular risk. Maybe whatever sent him to Walter Reed last time, maybe something else.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:08 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


It's hard to judge his health based on a few seconds of footage. Trump's fixation on his image of physical vigor means that there's no way he would let himself be filmed in a stretcher or wheelchair unless he was completely incapacitated, so him walking to the helicopter really just means he's conscious. The fact that he's being admitted to the hospital is a good sign that this is more serious than a "mild" case. For obvious national security reasons, even relatively honest administrations tend to lie about the President's health, and this is not an honest administration.
posted by theodolite at 4:09 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


get a public transfer to Walter Reed over with while he can still ambulate and address the nation looking relatively perky
Ooohhh, of course that's what's up. Wow, that's really smart! Dang... imagine... there must be one lonely smart comms person wandering about amid a whole zoofull of gibbering idiots that spend all day tweeting stupidities and setting up murderous rose garden ceremonies.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:10 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.

It seems highly unlikely there is anyone in a cabinet office who would prosecute him or his doctors, anyway.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:11 PM on October 2


Who is taking care of Barron?

Same person who always does I would guess
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:11 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


He will get the best medical care in the world... unlike all the tax-paying and under-insured suckers in the US.
posted by binturong at 4:13 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


> I want him to do well, or at least well enough to participate in the election and get trounced fair and square. Then he can die for all I care.

Yeah, I feel like IMPOTUS dying before the election is almost 100% downside for anyone who wants American democracy to survive. The election ratfucking doesn't depend on him being alive, and even if you're skeptical that there would be a huge sympathy/national unity bump for the Republican nominee if he did succumb to the virus, the simple fact is that Trump's nationwide vote share is pretty much the floor for a GOP nominee. A hypothetical Pence/Ivanka or Pence/Haley or Pence/Love ticket would get 99.99% of the Trump vote plus a non-trivial number of #NeverTrumpers. A weakened Trump with significant concerns about his life expectancy is the best possible opponent for Democrats right now.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:13 PM on October 2 [24 favorites]


And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.

If movies have taught me anything, people would happily accept someone in the white house shaking the pedantic FDA rule-following doctor by the shoulders and yelling "Good GOD man, it's the President" as perfectly fine in this case.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:18 PM on October 2 [16 favorites]


I like how people all over the internet are arguing over what we "should" "hope" for as if our hopes or lack thereof have any effect on what the next three and a half months will bring.
posted by lampoil at 4:19 PM on October 2 [44 favorites]


> tonycpsu: "Yeah, I feel like IMPOTUS dying before the election is almost 100% downside for anyone who wants American democracy to survive."

Yesterday, just after the news came out that Hope Hicks had tested positive (and well before we knew about Trump & Melania), I commented to a friend that, at this late date, it's not enough for Trump to merely be gone. He needs to be defeated. The Rob Ford -> Doug Ford / John Tory situation in Ontario that saturday_morning cited earlier should be at the front of mind for anyone thinking through the consequences of a Trump death.
posted by mhum at 4:20 PM on October 2 [32 favorites]


And no, the President doesn't (legally) have authority to unilaterally override FDA regulations.

Anecdotally, my dad was able to access a non FDA-approved experimental drug at Walter Reed many years ago. He wasn't a high ranking official, but he was a retired academy graduate and a purple heart veteran with 20 years of service and a sterling service record, so I don't know how much that played into it. It took DAYS to get the proper approvals in place, but they did manage to get the proper approvals because they were Walter Reed. While they were working to get the approvals, my mom and I were summoned to Walter Reed from across the country to come say goodbye. The drugs saved his life.

So access to experimental drugs isn't entirely unheard of or (necessarily) part of some sort of grift. I am assuming that anyone serving as president would be able to not only get those approvals, but get those approvals on short notice.
posted by mochapickle at 4:21 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


an incompetent Administration is unlikely to manage well.

One thing I worry about if Pence were to be in charge is Barr.

I feel like just due to his needing to be The Alpha, Trump makes Barr work for whatever vile stuff he wants to institute and won't let Barr dominate a conversation. Mind you, I feel like Trump's 100% on board with the most fascistic stuff Barr wants, but Barr at least has to put in some effort and make a case, give Trump some kind of fig leaf. By contrast, I feel like Barr would walk over Pence.

Pence would be all "Bill, I think..."
Barr: "What did you call me?"
Pence: "..."
Barr: "Henceforth, you will address me as Mr. Barr, Mike. Now here's the executive order you are going to sign."
Pence: "Okay, but what's it for, B-- Mr. Barr?"
Barr: "Sign it, Mike."
Pence: Signs it.
Nation: Suffers.

(Reader, please note that I've been drinking, as one does on a Friday evening with the way things are.)
posted by lord_wolf at 4:22 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


That green screen behind him in his tweet was weird. Also weird that he was only confirmed positive 18 hours ago (two hours after Hicks was announced positive!) and is now in hospital. But, good for the economy that he waited until after the markets closed in NYC in a Friday before announcing that he was going to hospital. Most people don’t go to hospital until closer to the five day mark. But I’m sure everything is fine. Just fine.
posted by saucysault at 4:22 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Why would they use a green screen? I just watched it again and I guess can't spot it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:27 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


METAFILTER: I've been drinking, as one does on a Friday evening with the way things are
posted by philip-random at 4:29 PM on October 2 [26 favorites]


I know we already put a nix on the body double conspiracy theories, so I just want to say I'm not promoting it, I'm pointing out why it's a flawed theory.

You can body double a lot about a person.

You cannot body double that fucking hair.
posted by deadaluspark at 4:29 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


he was only confirmed positive 18 hours ago

Yeah, what this means is he's been sick longer than they've told us. My bet is he was already symptomatic Tuesday. Sure looked like it.
posted by Miko at 4:31 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


My take is that he doesn't need medical care beyond what the White House facilities can provide yet

Hard to say, but I for one would find it surprising if he didn't go to Walter Reed after showing COVID symptoms of any severity.
posted by swift at 4:32 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


So, what happens to the election if he dies?
posted by mightshould at 4:35 PM on October 2


RNC picks someone else, which they could also do at any time.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:39 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


"The president of the United States is in the most secure bubble in the world... and he still got it. So, wear the damn mask!" -

No, the POTUS has the potential of being in the most secure bubble in the world, but it's only a "bubble" if he doesn't attend crowded events with dozens of strangers who've been doing their own campaigning recently. This is not a bubble photo.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:39 PM on October 2 [31 favorites]


The video of Trump was shot with a narrow angle and shallow depth of field. It can make things look weirdly flat and detached from the background, especially if you're used to cell phone and gopro videos (which have very wide angles and deep fields), but it doesn't indicate a green screen. The same effect can be seen in other official videos from the White House.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:40 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


So, what happens to the election if he dies?

It's kind of a shitshow. It's too late to change the ballots, and people have already voted. The RNC can try to meet to pick another candidate but I don't know how they get people to vote for him. It may end up at the state legislatures, who may pick electors for ... someone.

Everyone is better off if he survives well enough to actually lose the election and if he has to die, does so after Biden is inaugurated.
posted by suelac at 4:43 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


I for one would find it surprising if he didn't go to Walter Reed after showing COVID symptoms of any severity.
Of course! He's the president and he's 70-whatever plus overweight plus (maybe?) has had a boatload of TIAs. He probably would've been there yesterday if he were not a stubborn ass and had it not therefore taken a solid day of persuading to convince him it's way better optics to walk yourself onto the helicopter than to get portaged onto it on a stretcher by a crew of strapping young marines.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:44 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


Just imagine Trump walking to a helicopter while wearing his presidential mask
Yeah, trump in an Obama mask is not something I had anticipated visualizing today, but ok.
posted by joeyh at 4:51 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


it's way better optics to walk yourself onto the helicopter than to get portaged onto it on a stretcher by a crew of strapping young marines.

But a lot less enjoyable.

On a more serious point, that Buzzfeed fact check list has been updated to include:

15. No, Pelosi wasn’t contacted by the White House about continuity of government. [Twitter link]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:57 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


There is no playbook if he dies before the election. Same with Biden. It would be bedlam. Votes have already been cast, there's no clear path for validating, invalidating, or transferring those votes to another candidate. Courts and state legislatures would get involved, federal courts and the supreme court would be involved. There is no way to know ahead of time the outcome of the power struggles would be, or how rulings would go, or how the legitimacy of the outcome would be perceived, or who would claim loyalty to whom.

All we can know about that situation, is that someone would end up in the office after the election, and that it would be one of the biggest shit shows in American history on the way there. And that no matter the outcome, a lot of people won't accept it.
posted by mrgoat at 4:59 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]




For what it's worth, I live around the corner from Bedlam. No, really. Eventually it turned into an award-winning, hugely well-intentioned museum. No, really.

That might seem off the wall, but it's as close as I come to hope, these days.
posted by Grangousier at 5:04 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


You cannot body double that fucking hair.


$70k?

While I can see and understand the speculation of waiting until after the markets closed on Friday, I expect it was not simply just the markets. Who’s been trading in the last 24 hours and what have they been trading and why?
posted by tilde at 5:06 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


via Jim Acosta

"This is serious," the source said. The source went on to describe Trump as very tired, very fatigued, and having some trouble breathing. WH officials continue to say Trump will be fine.
posted by swift at 5:09 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


In 1872, Horace Greeley died after the general election but before the electoral college cast its votes. It was indeed a shitshow.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:10 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


God this hasn’t been 24 hours. Okay I’ll make the coffee.
posted by geoff. at 5:10 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


OK, so it’s a little less problematic for President because you’re electing electors, not specific candidates. If the party can coordinate who the electors vote for (which they didn’t do in 1872) then if he wins he or Pence win. (The 20th amendment says if the President Elect dies the VP Elect becomes President on Inauguration Day.)

If they don’t coordinate, and they wind up blowing the majority, it goes to the House who vote by states from the top 3 finishers (and the Senate elects the VP separately).
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:11 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


On the NBC Nightly News, someone posited that the White House is an office building and removing a contagious President to the hospital means that the staffers can continue to work and move about without certain areas being blocked off. Who knows.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:11 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I would have thought the obvious fallback would be to not acknowledge the death of a candidate until after the election, and if the President-Elect is dead, move down the chain of succession (which goes all the way down to the Washington DC municipal dogcatcher or something) until you find a warm body.
posted by acb at 5:13 PM on October 2


Horace Greeley was also primarily known as a media figure from New York, though at least by the time of his presidential campaign, he had served as a congressman for three months. Also his policies were far to the left of Trump's, even by modern standards.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:14 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Also, Greeley wasn't going to win even if he'd survived. The popular ballots had already been cast. It's a lot easier to navigate this situation when the person wasn't going to win anyway. Even if the electors had negotiated some sort of bloc to vote for a singular candidate, that dude would be just as much a historical footnote as Greeley himself.
posted by absalom at 5:18 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Republican Senator Thom Tillis has tested positive for coronavirus. He was also in attendance for the Rose Garden event last Saturday.
posted by theory at 5:20 PM on October 2 [16 favorites]


The lack of a Press Conference or much in the way of official statements is unbelievably incompetent and stupid, so def. typical of the Trump Administartion.

The RNC can't sub in a new candidate. Rules vary by state, people are already voting, and the death of a major candidate would be a mess.
posted by theora55 at 5:22 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Really looks like that Rose Garden ceremony was a super-spreader event...
posted by suelac at 5:25 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


2nd GOP Senate Judiciary member announces he’s positive for COVID: Steven Dennis on Twitter

Thom Tillis.
8:25 PM · Oct 2, 2020·
posted by bluesky43 at 5:27 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Will we be renaming it the Rona Garden?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:29 PM on October 2 [44 favorites]


Could Trump Have Infected Biden?
The former vice president’s most recent COVID-19 test was negative, but he’s not yet in the clear.


Oh gawd. The Atlantic does a deep dive into what we all fear and has been commented on repeatedly in this thread.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:30 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Someone (well, it's these two people, neither of whom I have heard of before) have put together a Tableau dashboard with a bunch of publicly available contact and Covid test information for people in the vicinity of the White House.
posted by mhum at 5:32 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]



(stolen from a friend of a friend)
Dear American friends: a gentle reminder that the Brazilian president managed to win an election from a hospital bed, not going to debates and using massive social media artillery instead. Please be prepared for social media onslaught from the other side and fight back! These platforms seem to be on their side.
posted by adamvasco at 5:34 PM on October 2 [53 favorites]


TILLIS: was at GOP lunch Wednesday. And likely was at Judiciary Committee meeting yesterday. Lisa Desjardins vis Twitter
posted by bluesky43 at 5:37 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]




Thom Tillis.

The screenwriters have got so lazy they're now just lifting character names from their long abandoned cheap Lord of the Rings knock-off
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:41 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I may have missed if somebody already pointed this out upthread, but Sen. Lee has admitted to being symptomatic and was observed to be maskless while attending the 90-minute long Judiciary Committee meeting on Thursday morning.

Lee was there for the full 90 minutes and spoke for over 10 minutes, at times shouting. He sat just feet away from Sen. Cruz.
posted by theory at 5:42 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


15. No, Pelosi wasn’t contacted by the White House about continuity of government. [Twitter link]

The source of that one was Feigl-Ding, who often seems to tweet in that sort of breathless, authoritative Twitter Voice. I'm not surprised he'd screw things up. He's been dinged (no pun intended) before. He was the "“HOLY MOTHER OF GOD — the new coronavirus is a 3.8!!!”" guy.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:42 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


I get that people are going to see patterns, and all these cautionary tales are interesting, but the US, its society, and its political system are quite a bit different from the UK, Brazil, and even Canada. The comparisons of Trump to Johnson, Bolsonaro, and Ford should probably be taken with the same grain of salt as the "clearly this is nth dimensional chess and he's lying" speculations. We're in largely uncharted waters, here.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:42 PM on October 2 [16 favorites]


The Guardian is reporting:

Trump very tired and having some trouble breathing, unnamed adviser tells CNN

While White House officials continue to say the president is doing fine, one unnamed Trump campaign adviser tells CNN that the president is very fatigued and having some trouble breathing. “This is serious,” the source said.

This is an account from a single anonymous source, so weigh it accordingly. We’ll update you if there are any confirmations about the seriousness of the president’s condition tonight.


He walked to a helicopter a couple hours previous. If this advisor's account is accurate, it sounds like Trump could be going downhill fast.
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:43 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Also Mike Lee, Ted Cruz, and Thom Tillis are all great names to draw out of the hat for your Wicker Man.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:44 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Came in here to unwind after a long day of work and there's far too much serious analysis and not nearly enough dumb jokes and dancing Ghanaian pallbearer memes.

It's Friday night and Trump has Covid. It's ok to unclench for just a little bit and laugh.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 5:44 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Even a tired, breathless person might be able to steadily walk to a helicopter; I don't know if it's a sign that he's actually doing worse than earlier in the evening.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:45 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Came in here to unwind after a long day of work and there's far too much serious analysis and not nearly enough dumb jokes

Just do as I hope Trump does: Stay Positive.
posted by swift at 5:46 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


ok to unclench for just a little bit and laugh

I bought a lottery ticket because apparently some of my wishes are being granted today.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:47 PM on October 2 [19 favorites]


adamvasco: Dear American friends: a gentle reminder that the Brazilian president managed to win an election from a hospital bed, not going to debates and using massive social media artillery instead. Please be prepared for social media onslaught from the other side and fight back! These platforms seem to be on their side.

Serious question: was the Brazilian president already leading in the polls before he became ill? Or did he come from behind and win only after he was admitted to the hospital?
posted by tzikeh at 5:47 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I wish I could laugh. My problem is that I can see this going wrong in so many ways, and that really dampens the schadenfreude.
posted by mollweide at 5:49 PM on October 2 [20 favorites]


It is not a wish that he and his supporters suffer indignity, the twinge of good that I'm feeling is a hope of fertile ground for progress.
posted by kybix at 5:52 PM on October 2


There is no playbook if he dies before the election. Same with Biden. It would be bedlam. Votes have already been cast, there's no clear path for validating, invalidating, or transferring those votes to another candidate.

I wish people would stop saying this since it isn't at all true. You don't vote for a specific person for President. You vote for electors, who are bound by law, or mere tradition in some states, to vote for the slate presented by their political party, which can be changed. Situations like this are one of the reasons the system works the way it does.

Even if Trump dies, the votes for those electors still count. There is no reason or legal basis for them to be invalidated.

Misinformation and confusion is one of the main things that has allowed Trump to get away with so much of the shit he has and directly contributes (in a small way) to the crisis of confidence we are currently experiencing. No good comes of giving cover to those who are hell bent on sowing confusion and interfering in our elections. Don't help the trolls, please.
posted by wierdo at 5:53 PM on October 2 [49 favorites]


This is a bad situation, however you slice it. I can’t even delight in any kind of poetic irony.

Also: Shout out to all my fellow sober mefites. I think I’ve gained five pounds from stress eating today alone.
posted by mochapickle at 5:54 PM on October 2 [37 favorites]


I wish I could laugh. My problem is that I can see this going wrong in so many ways, and that really dampens the schadenfreude.

Oh, it's absolutely going to be a shit show and will probably all end in tears. Not trying to tell anyone how to live their life but that's all the more reason to laugh now in my opinion.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 5:55 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


I showed up at a social gathering last night and the first question anyone asked me was "did you hear the good news" so I can assure you all that somewhere, people were unclenching and laughing on a Friday night!

(It's already Saturday afternoon where I am in case that's confusing.)
posted by inexorably_forward at 5:55 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Picked up wine; bet a bunch of money on the Lakers. This might just be a great day.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:56 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


I don't think many parallels can be drawn with Bolsonaro, who was stabbed in a politically-motivated attack during the 2018 election, when he was already the frontrunner and his main opponent was imprisoned and legally barred from campaigning.
posted by Not A Thing at 5:57 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


swift: Just do as I hope Trump does: Stay Positive.

Stealing this.
posted by clawsoon at 5:58 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Sen. Lee has admitted to being symptomatic and was observed to be maskless while attending the 90-minute long Judiciary Committee meeting on Thursday morning.

As God is my witness if covid-related idiocy keeps them from jamming Barrett through I will forgive the writers absolutely everything
posted by saturday_morning at 6:01 PM on October 2 [57 favorites]


He sat just feet away from Sen. Cruz.

Oh 2020, why, why must you tease me like this.
posted by emjaybee at 6:04 PM on October 2 [28 favorites]


As God is my witness if covid-related idiocy keeps them from jamming Barrett through I will forgive the writers absolutely everything

I KNOW right?

well maybe i won't forgive them eeeeeeeverything
posted by medusa at 6:05 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


It's Friday night and Trump has Covid. It's ok to unclench for just a little bit and laugh.

Stolen joke: You have to look at all of his comorbidities:
- Elderly.
- Overweight.
- Low income.
- Lives in public housing.
posted by clawsoon at 6:07 PM on October 2 [58 favorites]


I’m firmly of the belief that good things happening that lead to shitty things are still good things. Things are going to be what they are in the end, but I can still rejoice in the good without my worries about the future disrupting that. The shitty would have been shitty anyway, largely because people are going to be who they are, but good is always good.
posted by mikesch at 6:09 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Graham is dead set on keeping the confirmation hearings on track.
posted by prefpara at 6:09 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


"Covid-related idiocy" that may have sprung from the very ceremony that announced Coney Barrett as their candidate for a lifetime position. The irony is not subtle.
posted by Kevin Street at 6:13 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Chuck Grassley, who is 87, met with Mike Lee yesterday but says that he won't get tested because their chairs were more than six feet apart. The CDC guidelines are that you only need to be tested if you were within six feet of someone for over fifteen minutes, so he is definitely fine. Because that is definitely how diseases work. They set a timer for fifteen minutes and then pounce at fifteen minutes plus one second, but not an instant sooner.

And yes, the sick Judiciary Committee members claim that they will be well enough to be back at work in ten days, which coincidentally is when the Supreme Court confirmation hearings are set to begin. It's awesome that they can control COVID like that! They should definitely share their secret with the medical community.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:15 PM on October 2 [27 favorites]



He sat just feet away from Sen. Cruz.

Oh 2020, why, why must you tease me like this.


You can't kill cockroaches that easily, even if they're in a humanoid skinsuit.
posted by sillyman at 6:16 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


this dingus will do anything to keep his tax returns out of the news hey?

if he dies from this I'm going to start believing the tax returns were his fucking horcrux
posted by um at 6:17 PM on October 2 [48 favorites]


Think of how easy it would've been for Donald Trump not to catch the coronavirus, by David Roth at the Defector.
And so the move, the only move, was to go on in denial, to push irritably and impatiently through the unrelenting fact of the disease behind the fantasy that none of it could ever have any consequences for him. His people followed on behind, not so much in denial as in defiance of the thought that any of this could possibly apply to them. The people that fly into rages upon being asked to wear a mask to protect other people and stop the spread of the disease would, paradoxically or not, also fly into a rage if the people serving them were not wearing masks. This is because these people are fucking unwell, but it is also because that facile distinction between themselves and other people is a load-bearing one. It holds up the whole gilded edifice, until it doesn’t. It was probably inevitable that Trump would get the virus, because the country is still awash in it and because he has refused to protect himself or others from it; it is, again, not really much of a metaphor that he himself seems to have become something of a vector for its spread in his own gilded circles. It is not a complicated story, or a long one. It’s the nature of a virus to spread, to move blindly from one person to the next, absolutely and always as illimitable as it is permitted to become.
posted by medusa at 6:18 PM on October 2 [23 favorites]


I have to confess I am glad that the mad king is suffering for his breath alone in an isolation ward, and anyone who comes near him is fully gowned and masked and treats him like the alien source and carrier of evil that he is.

The only thing that could improve it would be cold cement, bright lights, and bars.
posted by Dashy at 6:18 PM on October 2 [32 favorites]


>breathless person might be able to steadily walk to a helicopter

yeah the weird thing about this serious cases is that people can feel relatively energetic even with sub-90% O2 saturation . . . one #yachtlife couple had the elderly COVID-19 sufferer thinking he could walk the mile from the dock to the hospital, one he ended up dying in some weeks later.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:22 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


> compassionate use approval requires that the disease is "serious or immediately life-threatening,"

COVID-19 is a life-threatening disease, particularly for someone in their 70s with a few risk factors. That's all it would take for that approval. Plus, you know, President of the U.S., leader of the largest military on the planet, blah-blah-blah.

So there is nothing particularly out of order about that. Unlike bleach, hydroxychloroquine, etc, this type of antibody is the actual state of the art treatment for someone at this stage of the disease.

These monoclonal antibodies help you fight off the virus in the very early stages of infection. If you were to wait until you reached the "very serious ill," "in the hospital," or "on a respirator" phase of the COVID-19 disease progression it would be far, far too late for the monoclonal antibodies to do any good.

In fact, the antibodies administered at that phase of the disease would be positively harmful, as what they do is (basically/in short) ramp your immune system up quickly, and by the of the illness where you are on a respiratory it is exactly the overactive immune response that causes the problems and that last thing you would want to do is ramp it up even more.

So if you're going to administer the monoclonal antibodies and have them do any good, you've got to do it very early on. If anything, Trump is late to the ballgame as he's already been symptomatic for a couple of days. Ideally you'd get the antibodies just before or just after your exposure.
“If you treat people who are very sick, you may not see anything. If you treat people earlier, you will probably see what you saw in the monkeys: a significant reduction in virus, which doesn’t necessarily mean a reduction in morbidity and mortality, but it should. What you really want to do is prevent the progression of the disease.”
Source - more - more
posted by flug at 6:24 PM on October 2 [31 favorites]




I wish people would stop saying this since it isn't at all true. You don't vote for a specific person for President. You vote for electors, who are bound by law, or mere tradition in some states, to vote for the slate presented by their political party, which can be changed. Situations like this are one of the reasons the system works the way it does.

Wrong. This is true in only the most technical, legal sense. (Futurama: You are technically correct, the best kind of correct) but most people do vote for a specific person for president. They mark the name on the ballot, and that's who they think they voted for - I feel confident in the statement in that this is the basis of how most people would consider their vote be counted legitimately, which is really what matters. Otherwise, people stop trusting the electoral process, and then we're just back to whoever can enforce their will by violence, which admittedly is where we may be headed anyway.

Do you know anyone who actually walks into a voting booth, looks at a list of specific candidates on that piece of paper, and votes for an unlisted and largely anonymous slate of electors? Heck, I've been voting for a while now, and none of my ballots have even listed the names of the electors.
posted by mrgoat at 6:28 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Came in here to unwind after a long day of work and there's far too much serious analysis and not nearly enough dumb jokes

Surely when it comes to Trump, these two things are interchangeable.
posted by piyushnz at 6:29 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]




i just wanted to say that my first reaction was exhaustion

really

i'm just so tired of this - aren't you?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:33 PM on October 2 [41 favorites]


Yeah. Joe Biden is trying to be the better person - while the Trump campaign is like a headless scorpion, continuing to sting as long as it can.
posted by Kevin Street at 6:34 PM on October 2 [15 favorites]


What a relief it’s been today, to spend a few hours released from Trump’s unrelenting domineering presence in my life. He has been a mere human today, imagine that. A human with the flu. This simple shift gives me a glimmer of life post-Trump presidency and Wow. I can really taste today just how much calmer, saner, and easier it will be.

I want more of that autonomy back in my life, please. I want to be freed from being lorded over by a horrifying figure of corrupt and selfish power. I want it a lot.

To Trump the human: I wish you well. And may you stay merely human from here on out, for the sake of us all.
posted by marlys at 6:35 PM on October 2 [20 favorites]


Biden is showing us what being presidential in a crisis looks like.
posted by azpenguin at 6:36 PM on October 2 [26 favorites]


> was administered a high dose of an experimental polyclonal

He would have gotten the lower dose if he were given as a preventative (ie, to family members of people recently diagnosed with COVID-19) as in, for example, this trial.

The higher dose indicates nothing, except that he is getting it a bit later in the course of the disease, after he has already shown some symptoms for a day or three.

Which . . . is a thing we already knew.

The only thing we can really take away from administering the antibodies is that he is in fact somewhere within the phase of the illness (lasting about a week, usually) where people typically either have no particular symptoms or fairly mild/non-alarming flu-like symptoms.

That doesn't tell you anything at all about how the next phase of the disease will turn out. Pretty much the full spectrum of possible outcomes is still available to him.

And we won't know for maybe another 4-8 days, when he hits that point in the disease progression, exactly which way it's going to go.

A Timeline of COVID-19 Symptoms
posted by flug at 6:36 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


The History Guy - Woodrow Wilson's stroke

101 years ago today. They kept it secret for a surprisingly long time. I don't know if THG had this episode planned but it's very timely.
posted by adept256 at 6:37 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Twitter: COVID19 is the only thing Trump has ever acquired in life by actually earning it.
posted by prefpara at 6:38 PM on October 2 [74 favorites]


Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship
that could be the stupidest thing anyone has ever thought ever
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:42 PM on October 2 [45 favorites]


In an article posted this evening about how the virus spread through the White House, WaPo is reporting that the decision to transfer Trump to the hospital today was in part a preemptive PR move. As his condition deteriorated over the course of the day Trump's team wanted to make the transfer while he was still able to walk under his own power, fearing the optics if his condition were to go downhill more quickly.

It also describes the fundraiser Trump attended on Thursday after he was aware of Hicks' infection:
In Bedminster, Trump held a roundtable fundraiser indoors where donors were sitting around the table with him. Masks were not worn in the room. The president then went outdoors to address a larger group, and some of those attendees wore masks, people present said.

Many of the attendees were elderly, a mix of real estate figures and Trump friends, including Keith Frankel, a vitamins executive who had worked with Trump on hydroxychloroquine, an ­anti-malarial drug Trump had falsely touted as a coronavirus cure.
posted by theory at 6:42 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]


Biden should suspend his campaign as a show of bipartisanship

Biden/Harris should announce that they are cancelling all large maskless non-distanced rallies with chants calling for the locking up of political opponents.
posted by srboisvert at 6:44 PM on October 2 [76 favorites]


so... hydroxychloroquine doesn't prevent covid-19?
posted by 20 year lurk at 6:49 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Whether officials in the FDA inappropriately approved compassionate use due to Trump's position as President rather than on the basis of medical need is a separate question, and also can't be ruled out.

Not to be all "when the President does it it's not illegal" but "it's for the President" seems to me not only an unsurprising reason to skirt the rules on these things, but a perfectly good one, in general? On the other hand, "it's for the President" also seems like a good reason not to just give the President whatever relatively untested treatment he happens to ask for.
posted by atoxyl at 6:51 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Jason Schreier on Twitter

Sep 27
Rosh Hashana: Ruth Bader Ginsburg dies
Yom Kippur: NYT publishes Trump's tax returns
Sukkot is gonna be wild

Oct 2
TODAY IS SUKKOT
posted by medusa at 6:51 PM on October 2 [122 favorites]


Beardman: Mad respect to the person on Twitter who responded to #PrayforTrump with a link to Shellac's "Prayer to God"

*Ahem* (27 minutes before the announcement that he'd tested positive). I do worry that I may have accidentally sold my soul to the Devil, so if anyone has any other requests that they'd like me to throw in, speak up now).
posted by Pink Frost at 6:56 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


>Merriam-Webster: Schadenfreude was our top lookup on October 2nd, by a very considerable margin.

Yes, I had ELO's Xanadu running through my head with alternate lyrics until I realized I was pronouncing it incorrectly.
posted by Catblack at 6:58 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


I can maybe envision his final tweets:

"A boy has never wept...nor dashed a thousand kin."
posted by ovvl at 7:01 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Apparently Claudia Conway is telling the internet that her mother has COVID. I feel bad for that kid
posted by Countess Elena at 7:03 PM on October 2 [17 favorites]


Apparently Claudia Conway is telling the internet that her mother has COVID. I feel bad for that kid

Her mum's just confirmed it on her verified twitter account, so yeah the WH is turning out to be quite the superspreader event.
posted by Buntix at 7:21 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway says via tweet that she has tested positive for COVID-19.
posted by RichardP at 7:21 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


Holy moly: Kellyanne is tweeting it too
posted by Nekosoft at 7:22 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


I couldn't resist:

The Unmasqued of the Red Death
They resolved to leave means neither of ingress nor egress to the sudden impulses of despair or of frenzy from within. The abbey was amply provisioned. With such precautions the courtiers might bid defiance to contagion. The external world could take care of itself. In the meantime it was folly to grieve or to think. The prince had provided all the appliances of pleasure. There were buffoons, there were improvisatori, there were ballet-dancers, there were musicians, there was Beauty, there was wine. All these and security were within. Without was the "Red Death."

Spirits were high. Finally, Trump was steering the national discussion away from the coronavirus pandemic — which had already killed more than 200,000 people in the United States and was still raging — to more favorable terrain...

There are some who would have thought him mad. His followers felt that he was not. It was necessary to hear and see and touch him to be sure he was not... they were grotesque... [and] much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust. To and fro in the seven chambers stalked, in fact, a multitude of dreams.

Attendees were so confident that the contagion would not invade their seemingly safe space... [that] after guests tested negative that day they were instructed they no longer needed to cover their faces. The no-mask mantra applied indoors as well. Cabinet members, senators, Barrett family members and others mixed unencumbered at tightly packed, indoor receptions in the White House’s Diplomatic Room and Cabinet Room.

Five days later, that feeling of invincibility was cruelly punctured. There were many individuals in the crowd who had found leisure to become aware of the presence of a masked figure which had arrested the attention of no single individual before. And the rumor of this new presence having spread itself whisperingly around, there arose at length from the whole company a buzz, or murmur, of horror, and of disgust.

"Who dares" -- he demanded hoarsely of the courtiers who stood near him -- "who dares insult us with this blasphemous mockery? Seize him and unmask him -- that we may know whom we have to hang, at sunrise, from the battlements!" yet there were found none who put forth a hand to seize him; so that, unimpeded, he passed within a yard of the prince's person; and while the vast assembly, as with one impulse, shrank from the centers of the rooms to the walls. It was then, however, that he, maddened with rage and the shame of his own momentary cowardice, rushed hurriedly through the six chambers, while none followed him on account of a deadly terror that had seized upon all.

Trump announced that he and the first lady also had tested positive.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:23 PM on October 2 [29 favorites]


How many of these chickens are going to be coming home to roost?
posted by wabbittwax at 7:23 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Seriously, #RomneyDeathRally was supposed to be just a METAPHOR.
posted by delfin at 7:24 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


And they said the magathread era was over.

Has Meredith been tested yet?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:31 PM on October 2 [33 favorites]


How many of these chickens are going to be coming home to roost?

It's like all the town's worst drunk drivers held a drag race and they all crashed into one other in a ball of flames. It's almost impressive.
posted by swift at 7:34 PM on October 2 [18 favorites]


*schadenfreudegasm*
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:35 PM on October 2 [26 favorites]


[Deleted a whole bunch of a derail about movies because apparently going to the bathroom was a very big mistake!]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 7:42 PM on October 2 [88 favorites]


Then yield thee, coward,
And live to be the show and gaze o' the time:
We'll have thee, as our rarer monsters are,
Painted on a pole, and underwrit,
"Here may you see the tyrant."

Exeunt omnes
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:43 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


Not to be all "when the President does it it's not illegal" but "it's for the President" seems to me not only an unsurprising reason to skirt the rules on these things, but a perfectly good one, in general? On the other hand, "it's for the President" also seems like a good reason not to just give the President whatever relatively untested treatment he happens to ask for.

Well all this rigmarole normally happens with every President because we've traditionally seen the President as a competent adult who is required for basically keeping the country in some semblance of a running state. Since this whole facade has now been demolished people are starting to realize that the President isn't some all important person necessary for the country to function to at least a nominal level.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:49 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Metafilter: apparently going to the bathroom was a very big mistake
posted by medusa at 7:51 PM on October 2 [57 favorites]


Metafilter: a very big mistake
posted by sixswitch at 7:52 PM on October 2 [28 favorites]


I was curious about the 17 hour gap between presidental tweets today. After some digging into a collection of data on the president's twitter account from the folks at Factba.se, I learned that in a 1232 day period since the inauguration there have been 121 gaps of 17 hours or more between tweets.

Of course not all activity is directly from the president, and I didn't care to dig into Factbase's guess as who sent each message, so the use of tweets to actually guess at activity levels is dubious at best.

But! The biggest gap between tweets since the inauguration was 23 hours and 48 minutes between noon on March 3rd and 4th, 2018. This is sort of an interesting date, because the president spoke at the Gridiron Club Dinner on the night of the 3rd. This is a political journalism event, similar to the White House Correspondents' Dinner, that presidents almost always attend. The punchline here is that Trump unusually doesn't attend the Correspondents dinner, AND the 2011 dinner was said by some to inspire or accelerate Trump's run for president after Obama called him out for his involvement in birtherism and mocked Trump's presidential potential. So maybe the 2018 Gridiron Club dinner was a big deal to him? I don't know. Just kind of funny.

It also appears that since the account's first tweet in 2009, it has never gone over 24 hours between messages, so if we do ever see that happen, it would at least be unique.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:53 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


Now I'm wondering what statistical distribution, if any, the gaps between his tweets follow.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:55 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


Your Childhood Pet Rock: people are starting to realize that the President isn't some all important person necessary for the country to function to at least a nominal level.

...what show have you been watching?!
posted by tzikeh at 7:56 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Metafilter: going to the bathroom was very big
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:56 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


Oh! So with Trump, it’s Patriot Flu (according to Fox News host).
posted by Toecutter at 8:02 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


>Merriam-Webster: Schadenfreude was our top lookup on October 2nd, by a very considerable margin.

Yes, I had ELO's Xanadu running through my head with alternate lyrics until I realized I was pronouncing it incorrectly.


Schadenfreude
Knows how to party
posted by taquito sunrise at 8:07 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


I think the basic principle is that democratic elections become a lot less meaningful if democratically elected presidents are shot or taken down by a plague before completing their term. Hence the secret service protection and the top-notch health care.

(Of course, our elections sometimes seem to be heading in an increasingly less democratic direction, and a significant portion of the electorate is proving to be even more terrible than expected, but... we should probably work on doing better in those categories rather than on giving up on the whole idea of keeping our elected officials safe?)
posted by bfields at 8:14 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


the President isn't some all important person necessary for the country to function to at least a nominal level.

And that’s the hell of it because if Trump had done NOTHING and just let the responsible agencies just do their damned jobs we’d have so much better off.
posted by sjswitzer at 8:19 PM on October 2 [34 favorites]


all our senior pols are dinosaurs. every candidate. 70+ year olds are occasionally gonna die in October.

Seems like we should quit doing that.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:20 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Fox is really going to be spinning a lot of plates if it’s spread to their donor base and even more of their leaders in the Senate
posted by glaucon at 8:20 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


The President isn't all that necessary for the government to function when there's no crisis. But we've all seen that those times never last long.
posted by Kevin Street at 8:21 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


The Trump campaign just sent out a fundraising email with the subject line "Lyin' Obama." The email goes on to mock Joe Biden for being "asleep in his basement." The Biden campaign, meanwhile, has pulled all negative ads.

So I still think Biden's move of pulling negative ads is wise, and this stuff is exactly why.

That small move is dignified, it's principled, it probably doesn't cost him any real ground in the short term, and he has to respond to the moment somehow... and inevitably, Trump's campaign will continue flinging garbage. So within a few days, he can truthfully say, "Hey, I tried," and go back to business.

The pullback is wise as long as it's temporary and measured. The whole "suspend the campaign" stuff is a whole different ball of crazypants and anyone who suggests it should turn off their screens and go to bed.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:26 PM on October 2 [44 favorites]


Not to be all "when the President does it it's not illegal" but "it's for the President" seems to me not only an unsurprising reason to skirt the rules on these things, but a perfectly good one, in general?

Well, I think it would be unsurprising and reasonable for "it's for the President" to be a reason to hasten or prioritize the decision process, but the point of granting a compassionate use exemption isn't that it's some kind of boon only made available to the deserving: it's supplying an untested/undertested and possibly dangerous drug to someone who has no other options, and such a bad prognosis that the unknown risks of the drug are outweighed by the known likelihood of death or serious complications using only the treatments otherwise available. That's why it's a decision that's supposed to be made based only on medical need, in consultation with the patient's physicians, regulators at the FDA, and the supplier of the drug. If there was political influence on the decision to actually approve the exemption (which is entirely possible), that is stupid (and certainly consistent with Trump's apparent approach to his relationship with his doctors), and a corruption of the process in a way that risks the health of the patient, which in this case is the President of the US.
posted by biogeo at 8:32 PM on October 2 [8 favorites]


And continuing the campaign is honestly a sportsmanlike vote of confidence in DJT’s successful recovery. That’s the best possible outcome here, that DJT recovers this month and Biden beats him fair and square in November.
posted by mochapickle at 8:32 PM on October 2 [9 favorites]


Also, if anyone wants to complain about this leading to some sort of uneven campaign time advantage, we can talk about how Trump has literally campaigned for 2020 since the inauguration in 2016.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:40 PM on October 2 [53 favorites]


I'll feel cheated if he dies without getting put behind bars first.

(given the Democrats' toothlessness so far I realize I will likely feel cheated nevertheless, but still...)
posted by ckape at 8:47 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]


Campaign manager Bill Stepien has tested positive, according to Politico.
posted by theory at 8:59 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


I’m firmly of the belief that good things happening that lead to shitty things are still good things. Things are going to be what they are in the end, but I can still rejoice in the good without my worries about the future disrupting that. The shitty would have been shitty anyway, largely because people are going to be who they are, but good is always good.

Hear, hear. For today, I'm gonna enjoy the schaudenfreude and I'm gonna live in a wee bit of hope, the likes of which I haven't had since election day 2016.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:09 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


A friend is calling in the Masque of the Orange Death.
posted by ocschwar at 9:10 PM on October 2 [50 favorites]


That makes four people from the debate prep room so far who've tested positive. Chris Christie is still waiting for his results. He last tested negative on Tuesday. No word yet from Rudy Giuliani, Jason Miller, or Stephen Miller.
posted by theory at 9:10 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]


"Either last week, or a day, or 30 years ago (I am not sure exactly which), I thought there might be a brief respite from the news cycle, so I got up to get a sandwich. When I sat back down, the New York Times had obtained the president’s tax returns and Donald Trump had bitten off debate moderator Chris Wallace’s head, having mistaken him for a bat. Now I’m staring at my phone trying not to blink in the hope that I can prevent any more news from happening. I zoned out briefly, and in the 60 seconds when my mind was elsewhere, October surprised me six times. I hate surprises! [...]

"Every time I close my eyes, even for a brief instant, something new happens that throws the whole year into chaos. I keep being visited by time travelers from two minutes in the future saying they are nostalgic for this time, right now, before the next thing had happened. WHAT THING? But they only sigh and vanish. These things simply cannot keep happening every day. My fragile system cannot take any more of this. I just want to sit down. Well, I am sitting down, but I want to feel like I am sitting down, instead of feeling what I currently feel, which is that my clenched jaw is on the verge of shattering into a thousand pieces and my tensed shoulders are about to punch a hole in the ceiling." -- I've Had Enough News Now, Thank You (Alexandra Petri, Washington Post, October 2, 2020)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:11 PM on October 2 [79 favorites]


COVID would not infect Stephen Miller. Professional courtesy between colleagues.
posted by delfin at 9:14 PM on October 2 [54 favorites]


What happened to journalist 2?
posted by brambleboy at 9:19 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


Not only did Stephen Miller not catch coronavirus when his wife, Katie, tested positive back in early May, when she returned to work May 26 she announced her pregnancy.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:23 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


What happened to journalist 2?

That may have been Michael Shear of the NY Times
posted by theory at 9:24 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Journalist 2 is now named as Michael Shear, NYT
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:24 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Giuliani has tested negative.
posted by blue suede stockings at 9:25 PM on October 2


Campaign manager Bill Stepien has tested positive, according to Politico.

Not the campaign manager hospitalized for threatening self-harm.

All the best people.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:26 PM on October 2 [6 favorites]


Guliani has tested negative.

We'll need three or so days to believe anyone's negative test, including Biden.
posted by benzenedream at 9:27 PM on October 2 [17 favorites]


Giuliani has tested negative.

Never have I been so disappointed to finish a sentence.
posted by hydrophonic at 9:28 PM on October 2 [10 favorites]


> Giuliani has tested negative.

COVID originated in bats, so Rudy's probably had close relatives of COVID-19 circulating in his system since birth.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:29 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


just world theory PLS
posted by Jacqueline at 9:30 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


As a reminder, this is the same administration that put political pressure on the CDC and rewrote its guidelines to lie about whether testing for asymptomatic contacts is required, in the hopes it would lead to smaller numbers to support reopening. Somehow I doubt the same set of assholes who wrote these guidelines are going to skip testing in the next few days.
posted by benzenedream at 9:31 PM on October 2 [25 favorites]


Trump is now on remdesivir in addition to his previous cocktail. I can't tell if they're just being cautious or if that doesn't bode well, since the guidelines (IIRC) currently recommend remdesivir only when patients start to require supplemental oxygen (like a mask or nasal prongs—not a mechanical vent)
posted by un petit cadeau at 9:32 PM on October 2 [14 favorites]




COVID would not infect Stephen Miller. Professional courtesy between colleagues.
posted by delfin


The undead don't attack each other.
posted by Pouteria at 9:39 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


COVID wouldn't be able to get any purchase on Miller's sulphur based metabolism anyway.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 9:42 PM on October 2 [21 favorites]


Contact tracing President Trump in Minnesota: Who hung out with him for how long? (Pioneer Press, Oct. 2, 2020) Trump’s Wednesday itinerary: landing in Minneapolis-St. Paul and greeting supporters and officials; a private fundraiser in a west suburban Shorewood home hosted by Cambria CEO Marty Davis; flights aboard Air Force One with some Republican officials aboard, including Minnesota members of Congress; and an outdoor rally at Duluth International Airport attended by 3,000 people.

"The Shorewood fundraiser was advertised at “$200,000 per couple,” according a flyer. Images and video from the event obtained by the Pioneer Press show a disregard for COVID-19 precautions at times. Trump is not pictured in the images. In some of them, apparently later in the evening after Trump left, video shows Davis and others frolicking close to each other without masks, and singing karaoke."

South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem was in attendance at the private fundraiser. You may remember Gov. Noem from headlines such as South Dakota Governor Dismisses Sturgis Motorcycle Rally COVID-19 Outbreak As 'Fiction' (Newsweek, via MSN, Sept. 9) and South Dakota governor uses coronavirus relief funds for $5 million tourism ad despite COVID surge (AP via CBS, Sept. 10).
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:46 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Trump 'in a race' against Covid-19 and experimental treatment makes it 'a fair fight,' Regeneron CEO says:
"He's in a race where his immune system is racing against the virus, and if the virus wins you can have dire consequences, obviously, and what our antibodies do is we make it a fair fight," Dr. Leonard Schleifer told CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
"He's in a higher risk group for a variety of reasons such as being older, and if we give our antibodies, we hope that we will give his immune system enough of a boost so that he can win this and make a complete recovery," Schleifer said.
Look, I'm not qualified to comment, but should a health care CEO go on Wolf Blitzer and talk like his unproven drug definitely works and should be handed out to anyone in Trump's demographics?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:46 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


Do you know anyone who actually walks into a voting booth, looks at a list of specific candidates on that piece of paper, and votes for an unlisted and largely anonymous slate of electors? Heck, I've been voting for a while now, and none of my ballots have even listed the names of the electors.

2/3 states I've voted for President in had text about electors, though not a literal list of names, along with the candidate's name. Number three may have, but I don't have a specific recollection. In one, each space was marked with something along the lines of "Electors for presidential candidate and vice presidential candidate".

It's no less legitimate than any other aspect of representative democracy, where we vote for people who vote on laws and (notionally) otherwise represent our interests.

You are right that perception is important, which is why I asked people not to misrepresent the situation by saying that there isn't any established process in the event that Trump dies before the election. There is a legitimate process to be followed here and saying otherwise is likely to further dilute people's acceptance of government itself. It, in a small way, helps embolden those who would take advantage of our current institutional weakness both politically and also violently.
posted by wierdo at 9:47 PM on October 2 [12 favorites]


should a health care CEO go on Wolf Blitzer and talk like his unproven drug definitely works and should be handed out to anyone in Trump's demographics

Are you a shareholder? If so, absolutely.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:50 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


The undead don't attack each other.

Which, real talk, is one of the biggest required disbelief suspensions in most zombie movies, especially the more modern version where they try to explain zombism as a plague.

Also fails as an allegory for Republican behavior in general, and in the current situation, on multiple levels.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:51 PM on October 2 [5 favorites]


Are Downfall subtitle memes still a thing? I'd like to see "Trump Finds Out Increasingly Growing Numbers Of Republican Leaders Are Testing Positive For COVID-19"
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:07 PM on October 2 [20 favorites]


Dr. Leonard Schleifer is speaking in his role as a CEO of a developmental (the D part of R&D) pharmaceutical company, not as a medical doctor.

The American Medical Association needs to be an actual "Professional" certification system and censure shit like this and "Dr. Atlas" and "Dr. Demon Semen" - and everyone else who traffics on being a medical doctor who transgress established understanding for personal gain. ie., lie for profit.

Regeneron either got stupid lucky, or someone with equity in them brokered the deal taking a (personal) huge gamble. Adverse effects with biologics tend to be either very very quick (or very very delayed), so at the expense of a reasonable risk profile, it drops Trump's viral titre as much as possible to give his immune system a fighting chance before the virus has a chance to establish and start disrupting the bradykinin pathways (a strong candidate for the mechanism of mortality and morbidity).


8g feels like a lot lot of peptide. 8 grams! I've seen it related as a 'transfusion' so maybe it's dissolved in a bag or two of saline and transfused into him over a few hours (or more)? Less time if they do a leukapheresis without the pheresis and mainline the dissolved peptides into the stream.

I could imagine Trump being a big spoiled brat and hating getting a drip; only after he was shown the leukapheresis machine and he chickened out.

But reports that he's being put on remdesivir on top of this is nuts. Trump isn't intelligent enough to understand the medical risks he's undertaking, the people "treating" him ... don't care about his wellbeing beyond cya.
posted by porpoise at 10:11 PM on October 2 [25 favorites]



Even a tired, breathless person might be able to steadily walk to a helicopter; I don't know if it's a sign that he's actually doing worse than earlier in the evening.


Can confirm. I didn't have COVID but I had the worst asthma attack of my life in April that I delayed getting treated because I figured asthma plus the potential of catching SARS-COV-2 was worse than just asthma. I chose poorly .....

Still, I definitely got somewhat used to impaired breathing to the point where I could fake it and move around over short distances if need be.

Anyway, according to the CDC the estimated infection (not case) fatality rate for an individual Trump's age is 0.054. That's 5.4%, and that's before taking into account other potential risk factors like obesity.

The estimated ifr for individuals aged 50 to 69 is 0.005 or 0.5%, again before taking into account additional risk factors.

The estimated ifr for 20-49 is 0.0002 or 0.02%.

I don't think people really appreciate just how much the risk of death from corona increases with age. Considering the average age of the politicians and community leaders Trump likely interacts with, he really put a lot of people at grave risk.

CDC ifr estimate link
posted by eagles123 at 10:24 PM on October 2 [16 favorites]


being put on remdesivir on top of this is nuts. Trump isn't intelligent enough to understand the medical risks he's undertaking

I mean, it’s pretty obvious he feels backed into a corner and the future that hurts his ego the least is the one where he bounces back faster and more completely than anyone ever. So: roll the dice, pile on the experimental cures. Dying is less humiliating than losing the election because you caught the Chinese Hoax Virus, amirite? [/sarcasm].

Thinking it over, though, if it were Obama would I be like, “screw the FDA’s red tape, it’s the fucking president and if the consensus of the serious doctors on the scene is that it’s the right call, that’s between them and him?” Because I think yeah, I would. Same for all our recent presidents. Thinking it over even further I also realized I don’t extend that to vice-presidents because apparently I have always regarded them as a sort of control group? So that was an interesting thing to realize about my biases and assumptions: I blithely assumed presidents get the bestest borderline-experimental cures, while vice-presidents have to play it by the book. That’s such a weird preconception, but I don’t think I’m alone here.
posted by Ryvar at 10:39 PM on October 2 [7 favorites]


What I Saw Today at the White House — Hours before President Trump left for Walter Reed, maskless staffers roamed the grounds. And no one asked me if I was sick., The Atlantic, Peter Nicholas, 10/2/2020:
I’ve written twice in recent months about the dangerous conditions around the president—about lax testing of journalists flying with him on Air Force One, about troubling working arrangements inside the executive mansion itself. Trump’s illness seems an outgrowth of the administration’s flagrant disregard for public-health precautions.

And yet, there’s no sign of a real course correction: The practices today seemed every bit as lax. When Trump walked deliberately toward Marine One tonight, in a dark suit and matching mask, he waved to reporters who all day had been trying to find out information about his condition.

But he left a White House that, even though he’s been stricken with a potentially fatal disease, seemed no safer than at any other point in the pandemic. Officials don’t appear to have learned much from the nightmare....
Even while the White House — not to mention the entire country — is figuratively under a surprise attack by a fifth column of foreign Covidian invaders, all anyone in the bunker (Trump most of all) can think about is his welfare.

This is not a picture of leadership, but sycophancy. Barehanded loyalist troops are expected to sacrifice themselves for the Mad King, and they believe him. His biggest problem is not taking care of the troops for a long war, but finding enough fresh replacements to plug up growing gaps in the ranks. Day of infamy, indeed.

The new Covid-19 infected Boss is the same as the old Boss — perhaps with a temporary veneer of contrition to gather sympathy while recovering — but he hasn’t changed.
posted by cenoxo at 10:41 PM on October 2 [23 favorites]


When the Audie Murphy VA Hospital was built in San Antonio, a special patient room adjacent to the ICU was built and reserved for former president Lyndon Johnson, who lived about an hour away. Or at least that was the plan--LBJ died a few months before the building was opened. (This is what I was told when I came to work there in the 1980s.)
posted by neuron at 10:57 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


Ah, now Ryvar, "if it were Obama" - he like anyone else would be quarantined and observed. If symptoms went beyond discomfort, then a treatment strategy might be devised and debated before implementation.

Trump? Speedrunning someone new to mortality...?
posted by porpoise at 11:01 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]


At least 24 people traveled with Hicks or Trump on the president's plane from Sept. 29 through Oct. 1 – from White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows to Alice Marie Johnson, a prison reform advocate whose life sentence was commuted by Trump. Johnson's tweet two hours ago: Thank you for all of the well wishes and prayers, I tested NEGATIVE!!! To God be the Glory!!!

Kristin Urquiza, a Biden guest at the debate who sat in the front row and has vocally condemned President Trump’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic, told NBC News that she is "terrified" after learning she had been exposed to the virus given that she knows the "darkest results of COVID-19" after seeing her father succumb to the deadly disease. Urquiza later told MSNBC's Ayman Mohyeldin she was getting a COVID-19 test on Friday. [While speaking at the 2020 Democratic National Convention, Kristin Urquiza remembered her father who she lost to coronavirus. "his only pre-existing condition was trusting Donald Trump and for that he paid with his life."]
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:04 PM on October 2 [13 favorites]


I don't think it's a hoax, because he loooooves his rallies

And he loves the fundraisers even more. So if he's missing opportunities to have even more money shoveled into his coffers.....
posted by gtrwolf at 11:19 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]


The picture in this tweet is the A1 photo in the NYT today. The Barrett event at the White House was not held exclusively outside. The elderly woman talking to Hope Hicks is Antonin Scalia's widow, Maureen McCarthy. The woman in blue behind her is her daughter-in-law, Patricia. Eugene Scalia, Antonin's and Maureen's son, is the Labor Secretary (just in case anyone forgot). Barr's there, too. You can see him in the center rear.

Imagine the directions where the aerosols in peoples' breath would travel while they were talking to each other.

Also, was dude yelling at Melania again? Yeesh.
posted by droplet at 11:21 PM on October 2 [23 favorites]


Oh geez.
posted by bink at 11:23 PM on October 2


Letters from An American: [...] 11 staffers from the Cleveland debate also tested positive. The 30-50 Republican donors who met with Trump Thursday night at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, are “freaking out,” one report noted. Tickets had cost up to $250,000, and Trump met privately with about 19 people for 45 minutes. Trump knew his adviser Hope Hicks had tested positive when he left for the club, but he went anyway. He did not wear a mask.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:42 PM on October 2 [27 favorites]


Droplet, I think the elderly woman is talking to Amy Coney Barrett.
posted by taz at 11:47 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]


The 30-50 Republican donors who met with Trump Thursday night at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, are “freaking out,”

tfw the journalists have your dopamine button zeroed in and now they're just spamming the fuck out of it
posted by Sauce Trough at 11:57 PM on October 2 [51 favorites]


Droplet, I think the elderly woman is talking to Amy Coney Barrett.

I see. She looks very similar to me from that distance to Ms. Hicks.

Well, we'll see what happens. I'm sure everyone in the room spoke to Trump or Melania during this klatch. Could Barrett be re-infected from an event like this? I'm sure Trump spoke to her.
posted by droplet at 12:10 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


For clarity, here’s a larger, sharper image of droplet’s “The picture in the tweet is the A1 photo in the NYT today.”, taken by veteran presidential photographer Doug Mills (WP bio and December 2019 interview).
posted by cenoxo at 12:18 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


I don't care about the average death rates. We've all been absorbing death-rate statistics via osmosis for six months.
(I think there's something very wrong with the way they calculate death rates; the US has had 2.87 million recoveries and 208k deaths: that's just shy of 14:1, or ~7%. Counting deaths-vs-cases is ridiculous when testing is so erratic.)

I want to know the odds of a 70+ year old person being incapacitated - unable to move around without assistance for more than walking to a bathroom - for a month or more. Where do we get the statistics on "People who have COVID and spent more than three weeks in a hospital, by age group?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:30 AM on October 3 [18 favorites]


Jesus. It sounds like the high school in Tokyo I teach at is being more strict about corona than the White House, with mandatory temperature checks, windows open, plastic dividers around student desks, and mandatory masks for everyone.

I mean, fuck, it’s still a bunch of 12-18 year olds that I constantly have to tell to put their fucking masks back on, and deal with teachers acting like masks are optional in the teachers’ room, but even that sounds better than the White House.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:31 AM on October 3 [21 favorites]


In America,
Any young boy
Can
Grow up
To be a
Superspreader
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:03 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


I mean, fuck, it’s still a bunch of 12-18 year olds that I constantly have to tell to put their fucking masks back on, and deal with teachers acting like masks are optional in the teachers’ room, but even that sounds better than the White House.

ffs. Their coworker Herman Cain arguably died, and they still kept half-assing it.

In most workplaces, you would expect to see changes after the first death.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:07 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]



I don't care about the average death rates. We've all been absorbing death-rate statistics via osmosis for six months.
(I think there's something very wrong with the way they calculate death rates; the US has had 2.87 million recoveries and 208k deaths: that's just shy of 14:1, or ~7%. Counting deaths-vs-cases is ridiculous when testing is so erratic.)

I want to know the odds of a 70+ year old person being incapacitated - unable to move around without assistance for more than walking to a bathroom - for a month or more. Where do we get the statistics on "People who have COVID and spent more than three weeks in a hospital, by age group?"


I'm not sure if anyone's calculated the long term effects in terms of percentages yet. I can't imagine they are anything but horrible. I agree the death rates are probably problematic, but at the very least I am satisfied that they are not fucking good.
posted by eagles123 at 1:28 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Don't the participants to the debate have to wait for a few days after exposure to get reliable results ?
posted by nicolin at 1:41 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


This piece by David Roth was linked way above, and it is really well-written. Thanks to who found and posted it. It has this insight which I feel even those who won't click the link should read:
The basic premise of Trumpism and the fundamental promise that Trump has made during his political career is that those who are with him will be treated one way, and those who are not will be treated in another, much worse way. Because of how Trump is—because of how avaricious and joyless he is, and because of how fearful and paranoid he is, and because of how unrelentingly aggrieved he is—this promise is fundamentally negative. Only the most powerful of the people that fell into formation behind him will receive any positive benefit from anything that he does; this is axiomatic, as Trump doesn’t do anything for anyone other than himself. Everyone that follows him understands and accepts this to some extent, and the less influential of those who lined up behind him either out of perceived interest or some rote and sour habit or pure servile instinct surely know as much. They also know that they will receive a more diffuse but still quite valuable dividend for their service, which is the certainty that they will never be treated as badly as the people on the other side.
posted by mumimor at 1:42 AM on October 3 [71 favorites]


I mean, to get reliable test results ?
posted by nicolin at 2:49 AM on October 3


It can certainly be 4-5 days before a test pops positive after exposure, yes. No-one present at the debate who is currently testing negative (such as the Bidens) can yet be presumed to have escaped Trump infecting them. If they make it through the weekend without positive test results they can start feeling optimistic, and if they make it through next weekend they can probably breathe a sigh of relief.

I do think the media hasn't quite grasped how possible it is for Trump to have spewed so much virus all over that stage that Joe Biden will catch it. Perhaps they find it literally unthinkable.
posted by Justinian at 2:59 AM on October 3 [18 favorites]


I think at this point people are like phew, Biden was negative so things are ok. But of course we don't know. I recently was exposed to COVID-19 through prolonged contact. I got a test at 4 days because I'm running for president anxious, but the negative tests at 10 and 14 days were the reassuring ones. (I didn't get sick, probably because we were both wearing masks.)
posted by medusa at 3:48 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


Holy shit Kellyanne too.
posted by Cocodrillo at 3:57 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Too soon?
posted by essexjan at 4:17 AM on October 3 [62 favorites]


The President isn't all that necessary for the government to function when there's no crisis. But we've all seen that those times never last long.

Most of our recent crises were initiated or exacerbated by this president.
posted by Foosnark at 4:33 AM on October 3 [15 favorites]




Huh, if Ruth Bader Ginsburg had not died, the Amy Coney Barrett event at the White House would not have taken place. Now, I know it's not certain that the ceremony was a super-spreader event, and even if it was my own worldview precludes me from thinking it means anything more than "shit happens," but I've still been thinking about it.
posted by Epixonti at 4:52 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


A policy that never gets applied to tweets from Trump, himself, where he threatens people in those exact ways. Until someone copies his words verbatim.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:54 AM on October 3 [41 favorites]


Further evidence of a moral universe: had republicans agreed that it was in poor taste to nominate a new justice so close to an election, the Barrett event wouldn’t have taken place either. They made their choice. Shit happens.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:55 AM on October 3 [23 favorites]


I know that Biden will never run an ad like this (and that it's good that he doesn't) but I'm really hoping for a Project Lincoln ad along the lines of...

"President Trump couldn't keep himself or his family safe from coronavirus.... How do you expect him to keep your family protected?"
posted by Candleman at 4:57 AM on October 3 [16 favorites]


Secret Service agents are pissed.
Secret Service agents expressed their anger and frustration to colleagues and friends Friday, saying that the president’s actions have repeatedly put them at risk. “He’s never cared about us,” one agent told a confidant, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the internal reaction.

Former Secret Service agents said it was unheard of for agents to openly complain about their president but that some currently in the ranks had become convinced during the pandemic that Trump was willing to put his protectors in harm’s way.

Agents who work in field offices around the country complained that since late August, they are no longer being tested when they return home from working at a rally for the president.

“This administration doesn’t care about the Secret Service,” one current agent relayed in an internal discussion group. “It’s so obvious.”
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:03 AM on October 3 [69 favorites]


Trump doesn’t do anything for anyone other than himself

Roth is a gift, and that he is writing at Defector makes them well worth the subscription. That we went most of a year before getting a voice like his, or the killed even earlier Splinter (and their new blog, the Discourse) back up and reporting on this shit is a goddamn shame.

And, as always, Roth captures it. Trump is a shark, an endless machine of want, and for a while, other beings manage to latch on to his slipstream, feasting off the scraps he throws behind him. Anything smaller than himself that wanders into his field of vision, he attacks and devours. Over time, those who would become his targets/rivals have learned to suck the teat instead.

I'd love to see some sort of truth and reconciliation commission, but this being America, if we're lucky, we'll max out at "let's not talk about the past, let's try to make the present better" or some similar sort of bullshit.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:21 AM on October 3 [26 favorites]


"let's not talk about the past, let's try to make the present better" or some similar sort of bullshit.

Agree, and fuck that. This era needs to be litigated, prosecuted and legislated out of existence.
posted by glaucon at 5:34 AM on October 3 [21 favorites]


“This administration doesn’t care about the Secret Service,” one current agent relayed in an internal discussion group. “It’s so obvious.”

Transpose this to, say, the year 41 AD in Rome, and substitute "Praetorian Guard" for "Secret Service".

I'm not suggesting that agents would stab the leader in a hallway, drag his body through the streets and dump him in the river.

But, if there's a constitutional crisis and there are doubts as to who the legitimate leader of the country is, this could be one less group that he could depend on to respond when he barks orders at them.
posted by gimonca at 5:40 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]


goodness, though, I gotta say that I never really considered “completely incapacitated by disease” as an option for how to get around breathtaking, history-making abuses of presidential pardon powers between November and January
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:56 AM on October 3 [23 favorites]


you almost **never ever** give someone a clinically untested drug like @Regeneron
’s polyclonal antibody drug—unless it’s for compassionate use for someone severely ill, or you’re crazy. Right @VincentRK
? This smacks of utter craziness or desperation. #COVID19 #TrumpCovid
posted by robbyrobs at 6:11 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Sen. Ron Johnson (WI-R) is the third Senator to test positive for COVID-19 in 48 hours.
posted by Fritzle at 6:16 AM on October 3 [21 favorites]


Am I the only person who is not shocked that in the wake of a scary diagnosis, this massive idiot germaphobe is demanding all the drugs? Who cares if it’s clinically necessary or not, of course he’s going to insist on getting everything.
posted by Maarika at 6:19 AM on October 3 [31 favorites]


Based on how everything else in 2020 has turned out, he's going to have a reaction to all of those drugs and come out of this with superpowers.
posted by mmoncur at 6:24 AM on October 3 [19 favorites]


It would be a shame if some or all of these last measure largely untested treatments reacted incredibly poorly with each other.

A goddamn shame.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:24 AM on October 3 [22 favorites]


"President Trump couldn't keep himself or his family safe from coronavirus.... How do you expect him to keep your family protected?"

Literally the day after anti-masker and "COVID is harmless to children" governor Mike Parson announced he and his wife were positive for the coronavirus, I got a text from his campaign that started with "Mike Parson has been working hard to keep Missourians safe during COVID-19..."

(Also Parson's office still refuses to say how many staffers have tested positive, nor will they answer any questions about where Parson traveled and who he had contact with. )
posted by Foosnark at 6:28 AM on October 3 [13 favorites]


I suppose it's indicative of the level of paranoia this administration has fostered that there's a growing voice in my head telling me we're all being masterfully played and this is a massive operation that will *somehow* end up serving the election on a silver platter for Trump.

Obviously, he hasn't the mental capacity to design something as Machiavellian as this, but he does have Roger Stone on his side, so...
posted by Thorzdad at 6:29 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


I have a little list. Tr*mp, M*rdoch, D*tton. They'd none of them be missed.
posted by h00py at 6:31 AM on October 3 [13 favorites]


Trump, other insiders test positive for COVID: A running list of those close to the White House being tested and their results, USA Today, Kristine Phillips & Kevin Johnson, Updated 8:19 a.m. ET Oct 3, 2020:
    Who has tested positive:
  • President Donald Trump
  • First lady Melania Trump
  • Hope Hicks, senior advisor to the president
  • Bill Stepien, Trump’s campaign manager
  • Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel
  • Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah
  • Sen. Thom Tillis, R-North Carolina
  • Three White House reporters
  • One White House staffer
  • Kellyanne Conway, former White House senior advisor
  • The Rev. John Jenkins, president of Notre Dame University (Jenkins was at the White House Saturday, when Trump introduced Judge Amy Coney Barrett as his Supreme Court nominee. Barrett was a law professor at Notre Dame for 15 years before Trump nominated her to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit.)
Check the article for negative test results and where Trump has traveled and been with the past seven days.
posted by cenoxo at 6:37 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


Sen. Ron Johnson (WI-R) is the third Senator to test positive for COVID-19 in 48 hours.
Told you Dems would take the Senate in 2020.
posted by fullerine at 6:38 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Is Johnson on Judiciary?
posted by saturday_morning at 6:40 AM on October 3


No he is not
posted by scottatdrake at 6:41 AM on October 3


cenoxo:
"Three White House reporters
One White House staffer
"

And a partridge in a pear tree.

Fuck this Christmas.
posted by chavenet at 6:43 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


I know the initial line was that Hope Hicks was responsible for the spread, but given the amount of infection in the high level Republican ranks is there any way to know for sure, other than she was the first to test positive? It really feels like they’re just claiming the attractive eminently huggable young woman led all the old white men to ruin and it strikes me as gross and a bit misogynistic, which is par for the course from these people, but still.
posted by mikesch at 6:43 AM on October 3 [98 favorites]


Obviously, he hasn't the mental capacity to design something as Machiavellian as this, but he does have Roger Stone on his side, so...

Yeah, a lot of people keep assuming they’re playing 12 dimensional chess at this point but these people aren’t that smart. Turns out you can get a long way with brute force and ignorance. And just being gigantic gigantic assholes all the time.
posted by mikesch at 6:46 AM on October 3 [16 favorites]


you almost **never ever** give someone a clinically untested drug like @Regeneron
’s polyclonal antibody drug—unless it’s for compassionate use for someone severely ill, or you’re crazy. Right @VincentRK
? This smacks of utter craziness or desperation. #COVID19 #TrumpCovid


Can confirm. I once tried to get compassionate use of an in-trial mAb for a patient; it requires a full IRB review. Walter Reed is not an existing site for this trial, meaning they had to submit the IRB proposal and convene the reviewers and obtain approval in < 12 hours, which if you are at all familiar with IRBs, leans heavily on the desperate side.
posted by basalganglia at 6:47 AM on October 3 [28 favorites]




you almost **never ever** give someone a clinically untested drug like @Regeneron's polyclonal antibody drug—unless it’s for compassionate use for someone severely ill, or you’re crazy.

Apparently, earlier this week Fox had been pumping up Regeneron. I think it could easily been a direct request from their biggest fan.
posted by bonehead at 6:48 AM on October 3 [10 favorites]


For all of you Bill Barr fans out there, here's a delicious video of a close, intense conversation he had with Kelly Ann Conway (now tested positive) at the WH SC event. One can only hope (and fuck that let's pray for all of the monsters bullshit).
posted by bluesky43 at 6:51 AM on October 3 [22 favorites]


The virus does not care if you are campaigning or trying to jam through a Supreme Court nominee. To ignore the risk is to endanger others’ lives. (WaPo)

To people like Mitch McConnell, this situation is like something out of an action movie where the hero suffers a mortal wound while completing their mission, but dies content in the knowledge that they have saved the day...except in this case "saved the day" means "took peoples' health care away."
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:52 AM on October 3 [20 favorites]


...And a partridge in a pear tree.

‘Tis the holiday season coming up: COVID-19 is the gift that keeps on giving taking.
posted by cenoxo at 6:53 AM on October 3


> Turns out you can get a long way with brute force and ignorance. And just being gigantic gigantic assholes all the time.

This was indeed the secret to Rob Ford's success.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:56 AM on October 3 [15 favorites]


Sen. Ron Johnson (WI-R) is the third Senator to test positive for COVID-19 in 48 hours.
Told you Dems would take the Senate in 2020.


Johnson isn’t up for re-election this year, unfortunately. He’s a useless lightweight, and I was so despondent when he got re-elected in 2016. I honestly felt more conspiratorial about that than I did about Trump’s election because the polling numbers had really favored his challenger. But we’ve gotta wait til 2022 to have another shot at him.

(Unless this comment is hoping for an ouster by biological means?)
posted by eirias at 7:06 AM on October 3


I know the initial line was that Hope Hicks was responsible for the spread, but given the amount of infection in the high level Republican ranks is there any way to know for sure

Given what we know of the timeline, I think it's actually much more likely Hope Hicks wasn't the first case. It seems much more likely that the Rose Garden ceremony was a spreading event (possibly one of multiple spreading events....) where Hicks and others got it.

Whoever brought it to that ceremony is currently unknown. Given the lack of masking and distancing among many of the invitees, there are a ton of potential sources. (I'm selfishly hoping that someone out there is sampling to do a phylogenetic network analysis and work out the source, but something tells me they're not hanging on to that type of evidence.)
posted by pie ninja at 7:10 AM on October 3 [13 favorites]


The European Medicines Agency have started has started a review of a safety signal to assess reports of acute kidney injury in some patients with COVID-19 taking Veklury (remdesivir).
I heard this during an interview with Prof Thomas Benfield* (link to Danish text summary, not the interview), where he also said that it was weird that the president was given remdesivir before needing oxygen, it was not what he would describe as best practice. He was also very surprised about the Regeneron, given the current reports on the President's condition. But, he said, they do things differently in America.

*Benfield is head of the department for infectious diseases at one of the largest Danish hospitals and treats many of the country's corona-patients.
posted by mumimor at 7:13 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


Apparently, earlier this week Fox had been pumping up Regeneron. I think it could easily been a direct request from their biggest fan.

Soooo, you’re saying this is all just a marketing stunt for Regeneron? “It saved the president!”
posted by Thorzdad at 7:15 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


The best explainer I've seen about the experimental drugs Trump is being given. Rachel Maddow video.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:16 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


I genuinely cannot understand all the hand-wringing and seriousness theorizing about how he got past restrictions on an experimental drug. He's...the President??? I know and understand and believe the people with lived clinical experience of how hard it is to get on a fancy drug, but have you ever run into those issues while treating the literal US President?

It means absolutely nothing in terms of how sick or not sick he is. The Fox hype and king baby pointing to the tv and saying "want!" makes more sense than anything else. There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.
posted by phunniemee at 7:22 AM on October 3 [53 favorites]


I wouldn't draw too much inference about the severity of his condition from the treatments being provided. You know that if he's even conscious and able to communicate, he's demanding ALL THE DRUGS. ALL OF THEM. For all we know, they gave him an Advil and told him it was Regeneron.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:22 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Agents who work in field offices around the country complained that since late August, they are no longer being tested when they return home from working at a rally for the president

This is so pointlessly mean spirited. COLLEGES out here are offering Covid testing after high risk events. And the secret service can’t even get them?
posted by corb at 7:26 AM on October 3 [23 favorites]


Soooo, you’re saying this is all just a marketing stunt for Regeneron? “It saved the president!”

Kinda looks that way, the CEO went on CNN.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:27 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Kinda looks that way, the CEO went on CNN.

REGN is up $20 A/H. Investigate the fuck out of every person who bought Regeneron stock or options between 4pm Thursday and 4pm Friday. Especially options. There was a huge spike in volume before the announcement. I can guarantee that the REGN call options are going to skyrocket Monday morning. I also guarantee you'll find some link to a couple of senior cabinet members or Republican leadership.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:35 AM on October 3 [55 favorites]


I keep expecting to hear that the President is dead.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:40 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


The Fall of Rome

(for Cyril Connolly)

The piers are pummelled by the waves;
In a lonely field the rain
Lashes an abandoned train;
Outlaws fill the mountain caves.

Fantastic grow the evening gowns;
Agents of the Fisc pursue
Absconding tax-defaulters through
The sewers of provincial towns.

Private rites of magic send
The temple prostitutes to sleep;
All the literati keep
An imaginary friend.

Cerebrotonic Cato may
Extol the Ancient Disciplines,
But the muscle-bound Marines
Mutiny for food and pay.

Caesar's double-bed is warm
As an unimportant clerk
Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK
On a pink official form.

Unendowed with wealth or pity,
Little birds with scarlet legs,
Sitting on their speckled eggs,
Eye each flu-infected city.

Altogether elsewhere, vast
Herds of reindeer move across
Miles and miles of golden moss,
Silently and very fast.

W.H. Auden, 1951
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:41 AM on October 3 [57 favorites]


There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.

“I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:42 AM on October 3 [10 favorites]


Cyril Connolly?
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 7:46 AM on October 3 [13 favorites]


(semi carnally)
posted by h00py at 7:47 AM on October 3 [25 favorites]


this is all just a marketing stunt for Regeneron? “It saved the president!”

I don't find it surprising that there's a greasy "follow the money" confidence game going on taking advantage of Trump's Health. Con artists are often the worst suckers themselves.
posted by bonehead at 7:48 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.

Exactly.

I'm baffled by people trying to figure out how a man elected with foreign election interference, who obstructed justice to cover that up and faced no repercussions, who ignored the emoluments clause and enriched himself in office, whose administration is largely "interim" appointees not vetted by Congress, who used military funds to pay for a pointless racist vanity project, etc. etc. ad infinitum, managed to skirt some rules.

He just ignored the rules and did what he wanted. That's his entire thing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:49 AM on October 3 [53 favorites]


sero-carnally.

is it worth noting -- as we have here not infrequently discussed the blood libel and a certain conspiracy's recurring claims that some reviled others are harvesting blood and hormone metabolites from abused children -- that the president's go-to treatment is an experimental biologic product derived from covid-19 patients' blood serum?
posted by 20 year lurk at 7:59 AM on October 3 [13 favorites]


I believe the Regeneron therapy is derived from humanized mice, not humans. They infected mice engineered with human immune systems with SARS-CoV-2 to generate antibodies that they then duplicated.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:01 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


I think you may be reading surprise or shock that is not there. Of course we expect him to do illegal things. We still need to note that they are illegal, because to start ignoring his illegal acts is to buy into his narrative that he is above the law. And honestly the narrative of most modern presidents that they are above the law.

Look if this was an off-label use of a widely administered drug with known side effects, I would be less picky about this. But there is real harm in giving the President of the United States a drug that is barely out of Stage 1 just because he's cronies with the CEO.
posted by muddgirl at 8:04 AM on October 3 [10 favorites]


There is no hindrance to getting what you want when you're POTUS. Rules do not apply.

Yes of course, but wouldn't any sane human want the best care, rather than the snake oil peddled by some random guy?
posted by mumimor at 8:05 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


He just ignored the rules and did what he wanted. That's his entire thing.

the velocity of shamelessness
posted by philip-random at 8:05 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


As someone who has been in medicine for 30+ years, I find the news that’s trickling out about Trump’s illness interesting. I don’t believe in giving VIPs special treatment; every patient should get my best. With that in mind, why would anyone try an experimental drug on the president without a compelling reason? As others have mentioned above some rules were certainly bent to do this. But it probably wasn’t rushed through the FDA/IRB, etc. as much as some have speculated. I imagine the White House medical staff saw this as a real possibility and had plans laid out in advance. The remdesivir makes more sense as does going ahead and admitting him, but is it out of an abundance of caution or because he is sicker than stated? And he sure has been quiet since the diagnosis. Very out of character.
posted by TedW at 8:06 AM on October 3 [23 favorites]


i stand corrected. thanks BungaDunga.
posted by 20 year lurk at 8:09 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Based on how everything else in 2020 has turned out, he's going to have a reaction to all of those drugs and come out of this with superpowers.

Technically Swamp Thing has ‘superpowers’ but I wouldn’t want to go through that or have the full results. But then, the Orange Dragon was already slime, so it’s not a huge transformation.
posted by mephron at 8:13 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


As a horror fan, I have zero difficulty believing that Trump might have known he was sick and chosen to his it and continue his schedule, do the debate, fundraiser, Rose Garden event, etc. because he has always had very strong Weaselly Guy Who Hides His Zombie Bite vibes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:14 AM on October 3 [58 favorites]


[Couple comments deleted. Please don't invent new conspiracy theories or fictitious terrible things people might who-knows-in-this-year say, etc; there's enough to keep track of without that. And please don't make sexist jokes even if you think they're zingers against Trump.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:15 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]


And who knows how many drugs Ronny Jackson left behind in the WH residence that Trump could use to mask Covid symptoms?

They certainly seemed to think they could get away with keeping Hicks' illness under wraps. They failed, obviously, but they seem to have tried.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:19 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


American Board of Internal Medicine - December 9, 2014: V.I.P. Syndrome Can Lead to Bad Care
Additionally, a physician may want to believe he or she is putting the patient first by acquiescing to special requests; however, by disregarding rules, regulations and guidelines, he or she may actually be putting the patient at risk.
h/t Natalie E. Dean, Assistant Professor of Biostatistics at University of Florida, who has some solid COVID posts
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:21 AM on October 3 [27 favorites]


As a horror fan, I have zero difficulty believing that Trump might have known he was sick and chosen to his it and continue his schedule, do the debate, fundraiser, Rose Garden event, etc. because he has always had very strong Weaselly Guy Who Hides His Zombie Bite vibes.

This is a hell of a marketing setup for the new horror flick President Zombie.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:24 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


Also steroids and antibodies together are kind of contraindicated aren't they? You want antibodies early to stop replication as much as possible and steroids later on to calm everything down when the immune system is carpet bombing the body. Putting them both together it's like, either he recieved antibodies that aren't going to help or steroids that are going to shut down his immune system while it's still ramping up to fight.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:25 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]




its not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game
posted by joeyh at 8:28 AM on October 3 [36 favorites]


Both Christie and Scott are saying they "misspoke" when they said "positive" instead of "negative." Such an easy mistake to make!
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:30 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Regeneron, if it is going to help, has to be administered early on during the course of infection. It works best for seronegative people (those not already producing antibodies) because it is, essentially externally administered antibodies. I don't know what Trump's status was. If you are already producing antibodies its effects are minimal or questionable.

This is from a summary to potential investors which tends to either put a more positive light on the results or tries to baffle them regarding the lack of wonderfulness.

[The] nasopharyngeal viral load through Day 7 in the seronegative group was a 0.60 log10 copies/mL greater reduction (p=0.03) in patients treated with high dose, and a 0.51 log10 copies/mL greater reduction (p=0.06) in patients treated with low dose, compared to placebo.

It worked better for those with a high level of virus which is what seronegative people tend to have. It reduced viral nasopharyngeal viral load by 0.6 log10 which a fancy way of saying about an 8-fold decrease. (If you had 80,000 particles counted before you would have 10,000.)

To quote further:

"Patients who were seronegative and/or had higher baseline viral levels also had greater benefits in terms of symptom alleviation. Among seronegative patients, median time to symptom alleviation (defined as symptoms becoming mild or absent) was 13 days in placebo, 8 days in high dose (p=0.22), and 6 days in low dose (p=0.09)."

For a researcher the above represents p-value hell. It proved none of the said claims.

"More than 2,000 people have been enrolled across the overall REGN-COV2 development program, and no unexpected safety findings have been reported by the Independent Data Monitoring Committee."

(emphasis mine) This is research speak for avoiding discussing the adverse effects. No unexpected adverse effects? The patient turned purple, floated up, and bounced against the ceiling. We expected that. With 2000 people you'll get a few adverse effects.

This statement is more significant. " Infusion reactions were seen in 4 patients (2 on placebo and 2 on REGN-COV2). Serious adverse events occurred in 2 placebo patients, 1 low dose patient and no high dose patients. There were no deaths in the trial."

So, in summary. If you are going to use it, use it early, use it in high dose, use it for someone seronegative. For those with high viral load and those seronegative, it does change a marker, viral load, to a statistically significant degree. Changing a marker is not the same as improving health. For that, there is a trend, but not statistical significance. Which is to say, it will sell a lot, be used for the wrong set of COVID-19 infected patients at the wrong time, and provide little benefit. Polyclonal antibodies are relatively safe, but there will be some folks with bad reactions.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:30 AM on October 3 [17 favorites]


Are they actually dumb enough to think positive=good and that's why they're making mistakes about their test results?
posted by hazyjane at 8:31 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


Oh come on! Cam Newton wasn't even there!

THE MONSTERS.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:32 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


its not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game. it's not a drinking game

2020 is a drinking game.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:34 AM on October 3 [27 favorites]


President Zombie.

much as I've come to dislike the entire genre, I'd be lying if I said I didn't see huge potential in a zombie movie being maybe the only way to accurately depict the true essence of the current president of the USA -- certainly in a way that might transcend existing divisions (some of them anyway).

I do think that one of the factors that has allowed Mr. Trump to get away with as much shit as he has is that very many people just can't imagine that anyone (let alone the president) could be such a fundamentally rotten, awful, atrocious (add your own adjective) clown.
posted by philip-random at 8:35 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Trump, other insiders test positive for COVID
A bunch of people decided that gravity was a hoax , jumped off a cliff to prove their point, and kept shouting "HA HA I'M REALLY FLYING" until the inevitable splat.
posted by elgilito at 8:36 AM on October 3 [25 favorites]


Isn't it fair to Occam's Razor the situation and just assume Trump insists on getting ALL THE TREATMENTS (Regeneron, remdesivir, whatever we next hear he's taking) because he's been pumping them up and hawking them so relentlessly and therefore they must be a good idea? I can't imagine any medical professional who warns about risks and side effects being able to override his avarice and pride.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:40 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


2020 is a drinking game.


I'm mandated to teetotal until my Lyme disease clears up. 2020 will culminate with me screaming "WITNESS ME!!!"
posted by ocschwar at 8:40 AM on October 3 [27 favorites]


I just keep thinking, if Trump isn't dying but just sick and quarantined, they really need to have him do the town hall debate on Zoom like the rest of us have to do our shit.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:42 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


chris christie un-misspoke: https://twitter.com/GovChristie/status/1312416381758050305

"I just received word that I am positive for COVID-19."
posted by Kybard at 8:43 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]


I should've known Trump just wanted to try Fizzy Lifting Drink, dances. Now we have to clean the ceiling.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:44 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


I find it disheartening that Mike Pence, The Mayonnaise That Walks Like A Man, has somehow managed to escape all this.
posted by mephron at 8:44 AM on October 3 [51 favorites]


The journal Science has a short explainer about the medicines Trump is taking.
posted by brambleboy at 8:48 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Can they just stop saying "positive" or "negative" and just say "the good result" or "the bad result". I guess that wouldn't work either, since good or bad will depend on the politics of the speaker and the listener.
posted by 445supermag at 8:48 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Nobody has said anything about how well Melania is doing. I hate her, but it would be very bad optics to lose her, too, so I wish her well. Man, this administration is making me mean. I hope she has a lady’s maid or something who cares.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:48 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


Agreed. I want her to be okay for her son’s sake.
posted by _Mona_ at 8:50 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


445supermag: Can they just stop saying "positive" or "negative"

'I have COVID-19'
or 'I do not have COVID-19' would work but I guess that makes too much sense.
posted by Too-Ticky at 8:52 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


Dr. Conley was just on MSNBC talking about how well Trump was doing, saying Trump told him he felt like he could walk right on out of there. That I can believe. Who knows what the rest of it means?
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Isn't it fair to Occam's Razor the situation and just assume Trump insists on getting ALL THE TREATMENTS
Trump's Razor applies at least as well.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:53 AM on October 3


Melania’s chief of staff recently reported that she’s doing well, resting, and in constant contact with her husband. I refuse to believe the constant contact part.
posted by mochapickle at 8:53 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]


'I do not have COVID-19' are you sure? Positive!
posted by InkaLomax at 8:54 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


chris christie un-misspoke:

Perhaps in time the concept of Schrödinger’s Cat will be replaced by Christie’s Diagnosis.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:55 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


chris christie un-misspoke:

I was just kicking myself for making a fake news post my first comment on this thread and getting the mods to zap it... but 2020 is like Star Trek, with infinite number of worlds to visit, so many are like Earth but just slightly off.
posted by 445supermag at 9:00 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


... with infinite number of worlds to visit, so many are like Earth but just slightly off.

My pet theory is that we were on the correct timeline until Bowie died in January, 2016.

He was the one holding it together for all of us.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:03 AM on October 3 [63 favorites]


If Trump actually feels well, he'll be tweeting like a fiend. That's the metric. I'll believe that he's well when he's tweeting in his normal style at his normal rate.
posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on October 3 [21 favorites]


"The Truth is, These are Not Very Bright Guys, and Things Got Out of Hand. . ."
posted by Harry Caul at 9:05 AM on October 3 [16 favorites]


If nothing else, this inability to remember the difference between positive and negative suggests that these people are not in the habit of doing regular STI screens, and that’s ... pretty on message for them, honestly.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:09 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


I want her to be okay for her son’s sake.

I remain baffled by the idea that either Trump could give two shits about their offspring as anything other than a prop. Also the kid is 14 - by that point I was selling weed, working under the table, and hitchhiking across state lines. Barron will be just fine (he'll be totally fucked, I just mean he'll be fine without his parents).
posted by aspersioncast at 9:10 AM on October 3 [37 favorites]


Yeah. As soon as 45 is actually able to handle a phone he'll be crowing about how he beat this disease like the superhero he is. Until/unless that happens, he's Schroedinger's asshole.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:10 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


"it's all positive / that's what every single test shows / and it's all in your head / but it's working it's way down to your toes"
posted by aspersioncast at 9:12 AM on October 3


Schroedinger's asshole.

Simultaneously puckered and utterly, wide open.
posted by weed donkey at 9:12 AM on October 3 [28 favorites]


he'll be crowing about how he beat this disease like the superhero he is

His supporters are way ahead of you.
posted by 445supermag at 9:12 AM on October 3


Yeah, I am baffled by people who think the Trumps are doing any actual day to day parenting.
posted by phooky at 9:15 AM on October 3 [18 favorites]


Barron will be just fine (he'll be totally fucked, I just mean he'll be fine without his parents).

In Anthony Trollope novels, the son of the nobleman who foolishly squandered his fortune typically has a major subplot involving having to marry a wealthy heiress. I have no idea what happens to the children of vanished wealth in non-fictional 21st century America, but I assume they end up having to get real jobs like the rest of us.
posted by jackbishop at 9:17 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


> Nobody has said anything about how well Melania is doing.

NPR this morning said that the White House said she had a slight fever and a mild cough, or something along those lines.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:19 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


If Trump actually feels well, he'll be tweeting like a fiend. That's the metric. I'll believe that he's well when he's tweeting in his normal style at his normal rate.

“We included tweets per day as an exploratory outcome, measured at baseline and at weeks 3, 6, 9, and 12.”
posted by eirias at 9:20 AM on October 3 [17 favorites]


so many are like Earth but just slightly off

In Year of Our Lord Twenty-Twenty, *EARTH* is only kinda like Earth but slightly off.
posted by notsnot at 9:23 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


I thought the video of him arriving at Walter Reed was so weird a) because of his military entourage (who was all that brass? Why were they there?) and b) the missing Melania. Would any other President go to the hospital without his wife at his side?
posted by Rash at 9:25 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Trump's doctor said in his briefing that it's now 72 hours since diagnosis, according to the Guardian liveblog. Oops. He also did some beating around the bush about whether Trump had been on oxygen at any point.
posted by Cheerwell Maker at 9:25 AM on October 3 [23 favorites]


Dr. Conley described Trump as "72 hours into his diagnosis." Which he will be under extreme pressure to walk back in the very near future, as that indicates that he went to his Wednesday-and-beyond activities (the fundraising rally in particular) knowing that he was COVID-positive.

There will be many books written about a critical span of approximately 48 hours, Tuesday morning into Thursday. There will be much speculation, mostly unprovable, as to who was tested and when, who knew the results and what they chose to do about it. Whether or not Trump's late arrival at the debate (too late to be tested, and thus reliant on Trump's honor-system declaration of negativity) was deliberate. Whether Hope Hicks, Amy Coney Barrett, or others were known to have been COVID-exposed before Barrett's coming-out party.

"What did the President know, and when did he know it" is awfully appropriate for a second President troubled by Bob Woodward's investigations. The question here is no longer "Was the Trump administration reckless with the lives of others"; it is whether they chose to deliberately risk the life of his opponent for the Presidency, however slightly, or if his supporters were the only ones who were deemed expendable.
posted by delfin at 9:26 AM on October 3 [44 favorites]


A somewhat concerning update was just shared with the WH press pool.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 9:26 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


If Trump actually feels well, he'll be tweeting like a fiend. That's the metric. I'll believe that he's well when he's tweeting in his normal style at his normal rate.

I realize these people are bad at everything except being evil, but I'm surprised they don't have someone tweeting from his account. It's such an obvious way to signal that he's not that sick.
posted by Mavri at 9:27 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


Well if Hope Hicks was his assistant tweeter, then she's sick too. Since he's always used an insecure phone, maybe they can't find the damn thing or nobody has the password. Maybe they're trying to figure out how to disinfect it.
posted by emjaybee at 9:34 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


and b) the missing Melania. Would any other President go to the hospital without his wife at his side?

Melania was sick, too. And the president is highly contagious — if you look closely at the footage of his departure, the helicopter pilot is in head to toe PPE.
posted by mochapickle at 9:34 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Someone must have had access to his Twitter in order to post the hostage video shortly before he was airlifted to the hospital.
posted by zixyer at 9:36 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


The question here is no longer "Was the Trump administration reckless with the lives of others"; it is whether they chose to deliberately risk the life of his opponent for the Presidency, however slightly

If they knew he was positive before the debate it wasn't slight.

Right now the best case appears to be that they didn't test him at all before the debate and just claimed they had. The alternative is that they did test him and it came back positive and then they lied about it and that's... even for them no, right?
posted by Justinian at 9:36 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


I realize these people are bad at everything except being evil, but I'm surprised they don't have someone tweeting from his account. It's such an obvious way to signal that he's not that sick.

Mainly I think it's because the president tweets like a loon - they'd need to imitate him carefully or it would just read like the ghostwritten tweets, and that would be one more secret to keep in a leaky White House of famously not-bright people. I'm not saying it can't happen, but given how many people are sick and how chaotic everything is, it's probably not a priority. A smarter evil person would have had a plan and substitute tweeter in place, of course.

~~
Trump's horrible family life really depresses me. Who loves him? Not his hired wife, not his birth family, probably Barron because Barron is a kid and it's all he knows, maybe Ivanka. Who does he love, to the extent that he can love? Unclear. Does he have actual friends? It depresses me far more that many Americans admire this type of family life or at least think it's acceptable. It's not so much that I'm sad for Trump qua Trump, but I am sad to see this kind of family life propagate itself down the generations, loveless and warped. It really is a sign of American rot that we don't even really demand that our leaders fake a loving family convincingly.

I guess that was always the risk of what one of my professors called "modernism with the lid off" - that we'd look full-on at the horrors of our society and love the horror.
posted by Frowner at 9:37 AM on October 3 [77 favorites]


I assume they end up having to get real jobs like the rest of us.

I got curious and looked up Svetlana Stalina*. Looks like she mostly wrote, lectured, and worked as a translator, both before and after defecting.

*Apologies if I messed up her name; I'm still learning the Russian naming system and it looks like at least later in life she purged all aspects of her father's name from hers?
posted by kalimac at 9:40 AM on October 3


The family in Arrested Development was closer and more loving than the Trumps.
posted by Miko at 9:41 AM on October 3 [24 favorites]


even for them no, right?

This is the administration that instituted forced sterilizations. They would absolutely do something like that. I'd be surprised if we ever find out that they didn't intentionally expose Biden.
posted by zixyer at 9:41 AM on October 3 [17 favorites]


ghostwritten tweets

There's a joke here about Herman Cain's Twitter account.... which might have been a lesson for those open to learning anything.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:41 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Are they actually dumb enough to think positive=good and that's why they're making mistakes about their test results?

You mean like this?
posted by essexjan at 9:44 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


I don't believe this White House would tell us if Trump has to be intubated or otherwise fully incapacitated. Not until he either recovered or died.

Far as I can tell, Pence could functionally be president right now and they wouldn't tell us until they can't cover it up anymore.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:49 AM on October 3 [19 favorites]


Are they actually dumb enough to think positive=good and that's why they're making mistakes about their test results?

Donald is COVID Aladeen.
posted by tclark at 9:51 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


It really is a sign of American rot that we don't even really demand that our leaders fake a loving family convincingly.

Not contesting the point, but has that ever actually been demanded of Republicans in the last 40 years? Unless Reagan had some offspring I'm not remembering, isn't Barron the youngest scion of a Republican president during that time? I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House, but they're right around my age and would have been of majority, or close to it, by the time Dubya assumed office.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:54 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Jim Acosta@Acosta: The WH TV pool just received this quote from “a source familiar with the President's health...” - “The President's vitals over last 24 hours were very concerning and the next 48 hours will be critical in terms of his care. We are still not on a clear path to a full recovery." 9:15 AM · Oct 3, 2020

Separate from the above: Is McEnamy still speaking from the podium to address the press pool, when she ought to be self-quarantining too? Come to think of it, the entire WH press pool was exposed to their 3-4 colleagues who are now COVID-19 positive.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:54 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


All of this speculation and tea-leaf reading about the president's health because we know we can't trust the official line is very late-Soviet-Union stuff.
posted by emjaybee at 9:55 AM on October 3 [113 favorites]


They're already trying to walk back the '72 hours into the diagnosis' thing because that strongly implies Trump knew he was infected on Tuesday and deliberately showed up late to the debate so he could weasel out of being tested at the venue like everyone else was, deliberately exposed a presidential candidate and never informed him of it after the fact, then went on to deliberately expose hundreds more people including many of his own supporters.
posted by theory at 9:55 AM on October 3 [45 favorites]


Right now the best case appears to be that they didn't test him at all before the debate and just claimed they had. The alternative is that they did test him and it came back positive and then they lied about it and that's... even for them no, right?

Melania was the only Trump family member to even consider wearing a mask at the debate; she reportedly entered wearing one, but took it off when she sat down and left it off when she joined Trump onstage at the end.

I could easily believe that she was the first of them to show symptoms and knew that she was positive on Tuesday, but was told/decided to lose the mask for appearance's sake at the debate. They may claim that Melania tested positive on Tuesday but Donald did not until Wednesday. And who knows? That may even be true, to some degree.

But if someone ends up needing to be thrown under the bus for reckless endangerment, "let them blame HER, not ME" would be extremely on-point for the Donald Trump brand.
posted by delfin at 9:55 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


The thing that gets me, more than anything, is the lying with no expectation of being believed. I think you could make a reasonable argument that all politicians lie, to some degree; certainly all of them are trying to spin the truth in their favor - but that's because there's something they care that you believe. Lying to your face, with a smirk, is something different, and much scarier: it's a power move, a kick in the teeth, proof they can say whatever they want without consequences.

I remember sitting in a hotel room in Washington DC on the evening of the Women's March, on the day after the Inauguration, and watching Sean Spicer lie through his teeth about the relative size of the crowds. I knew how big the crowd was; I'd seen it with my own eyes; all the reporters in the room had seen it, too...there was no point in lying, but he lied. Not to convince us, but just to show that he could.

The doctor in that press briefing wore that same smirk. "The President isn't on oxygen...now." But has he been on oxygen? "He's not on oxygen now." Shoving the bullshit down our throats. During the Sean Spicer conference, none of the reporters spoke up - I think they were too shocked to rally much of a defense. The reporters in the conference today did a much better job of speaking up, and the news media is treating these lies like the scandal they are. That's the only thing that gives me hope.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 9:55 AM on October 3 [51 favorites]


I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House, but they're right around my age and would have been of majority, or close to it, by the time Dubya assumed office.

But with W, it seemed at least that his wife and daughters, you know actually love him, and he them. Donald, as far as I can tell, loves nobody, and except for some weird misguided transactional performances, none of his family seem to love him either.
posted by tclark at 9:56 AM on October 3 [18 favorites]


well, just about everything this year has been very late-soviet-union stuff
posted by pyramid termite at 9:57 AM on October 3 [25 favorites]


He also did some beating around the bush about whether Trump had been on oxygen at any point.

Yeah, he was so cagey about this I think we can almost figure out what was going in.

He said:
  • He is hopeful the president will not need to go on oxygen in the future (a statement that asserts no factual information)
  • The president is not on oxygen now. (Meaningless because he could just mean at that exact moment. He also said the president was "slightly overweight", so he's apparently not opposed to excessively stretching the truth)
  • The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday. (today is Saturday)
posted by zixyer at 9:57 AM on October 3 [8 favorites]


The health reports are concerning for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is what happens if the man dies w/r/t the election. We already knew it was going to be a shit-show; his death would ramp that up to 11.
posted by tzikeh at 9:59 AM on October 3


George Conway retweet, jelani cobb @jelani9: Asked why they refuse to mention Herman Cain’s death they fall back on the reflex answer “He should’ve stopped resisting the police.”

George Conway retweet, David Axelrod@davidaxelrod, 3h ago: When the @POTUS wants to present a skewed picture of the virus and what it requires, he sends out Dr. Atlas, who has no background in public health or epidemiology, to parrot the party line. When the POTUS requires treatment, he seeks out experts who know what they’re doing.

Axelrod tweet, 16 minutes ago: The stunning conclusion from the briefing today is that the @POTUS knew he had COVID-19 at least 3 days ago, did not disclose it, went to events and risked infecting others. They thought they could hide this until the media outed Hope Hicks and the POTUS developed symptoms.

D. Axelrod's been around this block so many times, it's kinda stunning that he's stunned.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:00 AM on October 3 [35 favorites]


Also the kid is 14 - by that point I was selling weed, working under the table, and hitchhiking across state lines.

Ah yes, exactly the activities I associate with being fine.
posted by medusa at 10:02 AM on October 3 [48 favorites]


The 'on background' info almost certainly came from Mark Meadows, who was caught on camera—just after the press conference and just before the anonymous statement was reported—asking to be quoted off the record. They want to preserve the option of later ridiculing this information as 'fake news' when the President starts to improve and avoid having the visuals of this news coming from his doctors.
posted by theory at 10:02 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


guys guys I have a brilliant idea -- they can use convelescent plasma it's a miracle cure
posted by benzenedream at 10:04 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Now Dr. Conley is saying that the president wasn't on oxygen while he was with his team, so I'm taking that to mean all his statements about oxygen only apply to while he was under Conley's care, not after he was taken to Walter Reed.
posted by zixyer at 10:08 AM on October 3


For the commenter who wanted better statistics on risk/death in Trump's age range and health range:

CDC data shows that about 64.7% of Covid-19 patients with underlying health conditions in Trump’s age group have required hospitalization, and 31.7% have died.

Link goes to a tweet that is summarizing this NYTimes article.
posted by tzikeh at 10:09 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


I'd like to note that the response of apparently several people here to others sharing direct personal experience with or cited references about the compassionate use exemption system, and why its application in this case is not as simple as "it's for the president so it's okay," and how this points to multiple medical professionals having made an assessment that Trump's case is already really, life-threateningly serious, is to repeat demonstrably false suppositions and to deny that expertise is applicable.
posted by biogeo at 10:11 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House, but they're right around my age and would have been of majority, or close to it, by the time Dubya assumed office.

To me the difference is that Trump's family is openly transactional - there's no pretense that he married for love and companionship or that he cares about all his children equally. Americans are perfectly happy with the idea that Trump just hires and then discards women whose faces are their fortunes*, that unsatisfactory children get pushed to the side, the the most beautiful girl is the favorite girl.

I'm not saying that an apparently-happy family is a happy family, or that having a happy family means you're a good person, or that you need a happy family to be a happy person or that we should elect people based on being successfully partnered. But I think it's significant that there is so much admiration for this man whose family life is so extremely public and so extremely sordid. The vileness of Trump's family life is actually part of his brand and I find that both a bad thing and a bad sign for mainstream American culture.

*If he married socialites with their own money and connections, he couldn't treat them so badly - it seems silly to say "oh poor Ivanka, poor Marla, poor Melania", but if he'd married, eg, a Bush, she'd have her own money and people to stand up for her and he wouldn't be fucking around openly or fighting her and ripping her hair out.
posted by Frowner at 10:13 AM on October 3 [33 favorites]


Dr. Conley's statements are maddeningly opaque. He's like some kind of bridge troll that has be tricked into giving useful information.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:16 AM on October 3 [60 favorites]


Melania’s chief of staff recently reported that she’s doing well, resting, and in constant contact with her husband. I refuse to believe the constant contact part.

She is probably doing cartwheels and just being her bestest knowing that Trump could die any moment. It's hard to imagine a better scenario for her.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:19 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


Conley's in a tough spot, he's surely bound by medical ethics laws and rules, but at the same time he's serving president lies-on-tap. I would bet he's both legally bound to tell the truth, and at the same time prohibited from telling the truth. Being both truthful and lying at the same time can't be an easy needle to thread.
posted by mrgoat at 10:23 AM on October 3 [10 favorites]


Honest question: I’m not sure I understand the focus on oxygen. I’ve gotten oxygen every time I’ve been admitted to a hospital or under observation. I’ve had it at home and in clinical settings when I’ve been even a little below normal levels. It’s pretty common, in my understanding.

Is the president being on oxygen really a huge deal? Why would they be so squirrelly about that particular thing?
posted by mochapickle at 10:24 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


I'm loathe to even speculate on Barron, because unlike his mother he didn't sign up for this shit, and unlike his older siblings, he hasn't hit the age of consent and willing re-upped.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:26 AM on October 3 [35 favorites]


Oxygen is help. Needing oxygen is needing help. Needing oxygen is any indication of doing something other than grinning stoicly through a bad cold.

In a normal world the use of oxygen would be acknowledged and explained as a normal thing, even if that was a bit of spin itself.
posted by cortex at 10:26 AM on October 3 [21 favorites]




Mrs. Trump co-signed those allegedly fraudulent tax returns, so there are a couple of better scenarios.

Can't find the article from yesterday. There was something about fever being common in the course of COVID-19 infection, but that patients usually enter the hospital without one? Since he was administered drugs prior to admission, that treatment (starting however early last week) could have affected his temperature.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:29 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


I present a Twitter exchange which I have abridged slightly:
@TheHoarseWhisperer: "A group of people ignore a beloved woman’s dying wish and rush to take advantage of her death. They hold an event to announce their corrupt plan...and then one by one they start falling ill. Gotta admit, it’s all very Stephen King."

@StephenKing: "Have to admit it sounds like one of mine. Except there should be tentacles."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:30 AM on October 3 [155 favorites]


Of course Barron doesn't love his dad, he's 14 and that's certainly enough to know that you're not wanted.

While he may know that, love is complicated and even unloved children tend to love their parents, a source of inner pain and conflict that keeps many a therapist employed.

Is the president being on oxygen really a huge deal?

He abhors any appearance of weakness, and knows his fans depend on him to seem invulnerable.
posted by Miko at 10:32 AM on October 3 [17 favorites]


I'm not saying that an apparently-happy family is a happy family, or that having a happy family means you're a good person....

nature boy (bowie rendition): "The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return"
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:33 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


mochapickle: I’ve gotten oxygen every time I’ve been admitted to a hospital or under observation.

In my highly unscientific poll of friends and family on this morning's Zoom social calls, that makes you an extraordinary outlier, not the standard.

Is the president being on oxygen really a huge deal? Why would they be so squirrelly about that particular thing?

If you can't breathe properly and healthfully on your own, that's not a good sign.

p.s. mocha if you ever need a sock here, "Oxygen Georg" is a pretty good one.
posted by tzikeh at 10:34 AM on October 3 [19 favorites]


exactly the activities I associate with being fine.

The point was AFAICT he's not doing anything like that and is probably more "ok" in several senses than many of us were at that age, what with all the money and attention, but this is turning into a bit of a derail.

posted by aspersioncast at 10:35 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Pence is doing an in person rally on Thursday. Anyone who thought it would teach them anything, well, can I interest you in a Senate seat in Maine?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:35 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


In last week's TWiV podcast (episode 667), Daniel Griffin talked about a patient who needed oxygen five days after getting sick. He said it was a bad sign to bed often so early since usually covid-19 gets bad in the second week.
posted by carolr at 10:39 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


I think a better question is what his chest xrays (or other imaging) look likes like basically does the President have pneumonia at this point? If so in one lung, or both?
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:39 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


@StephenKing: "Have to admit it sounds like one of mine. Except there should be tentacles."

What if the real tentacles were all the wretched, swamp-dwelling cretins you made along the way?
posted by phunniemee at 10:39 AM on October 3 [40 favorites]


Here in Iowa, the Trump campaign is continuing as before, having lots of indoor, mask-optional events filled with elderly Trump supporters. They're a death cult. I truly don't understand it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:43 AM on October 3 [34 favorites]


Maybe the chest x-ray shows tentacles.
posted by notoriety public at 10:46 AM on October 3 [23 favorites]


A reply to Jane Mayer re: quorum for SC hearings from a law professor:

That's right. SJC currently has no quorum to report out a nominee (tho can do other things). Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing. Their positive tests were just yesterday (Oct. 2).
posted by bluesky43 at 10:47 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


Anyone else who believes that his staff is now posting on Twitter on his behalf? Dude is on oxygen and suddenly he's ... grateful?
Doctors, Nurses and ALL at the GREAT Walter Reed Medical Center, and others from likewise incredible institutions who have joined them, are AMAZING!!!Tremendous progress has been made over the last 6 months in fighting this PLAGUE. With their help, I am feeling well!
That's too out of character for Trump.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:49 AM on October 3 [33 favorites]


Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing.

Are they required to be present in-person, or will a live video presence be allowable to make a quorum?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:51 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Doesn't Dan Scavino tweet for Trump sometimes and people have done analysis as to which tweets are whose?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:51 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Foci for Analysis: Anyone else who believes that his staff is now posting on Twitter on his behalf?.... "likewise incredible institutions"

That's the giveaway. He has never shown the aptitude to structure phrases this way.
posted by tzikeh at 10:51 AM on October 3 [26 favorites]


My understanding is that they have to be there in person, and they would need to be there in person in order to authorize a change to that policy. It looks like their current plan is to end quarantine early, which is right on brand but also extremely optimistic about the course of the disease. Ten days out, they could be very sick.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:52 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


I try not to spend time sorting through Trump tweet construction mysteries in general but "and others from likewise incredible institutions" feels like someone accidentally forgot to codeswitch for a bit there.
posted by cortex at 10:52 AM on October 3 [27 favorites]


oh poor Ivanka, poor Marla, poor Melania

Ivana, not Ivanka. Although given how creepy he acts around his daughter, that's a hell of a Freudian slip.
posted by basalganglia at 10:52 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


That's right. SJC currently has no quorum to report out a nominee (tho can do other things). Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing. Their positive tests were just yesterday (Oct. 2).
...
Are they required to be present in-person, or will a live video presence be allowable to make a quorum?

Of course there won't be any proxy voting allowed, right? “There will be enormous constitutional questions around anything the House does if they fail to demonstrate a real quorum but plow ahead anyhow,” McConnell said during a floor speech.
posted by Preserver at 10:53 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


They're a death cult. I truly don't understand it.

But you do truly understand it, because you just spelled it out in four words. Nothing can ever be their fault, bad things only happen to Those People, or are caused by Those People. Most of them are huddled in circles right now, trying to work out how to blame Trump's infection on either Hunter Biden's occupation or Hillary Clinton's email server.
posted by delfin at 10:53 AM on October 3 [12 favorites]


Those words do have a lot of syllables, and the vocabulary is a bit large for Trump. But who the heck knows at this point. Maybe the oxygen woke up sleeping parts of his brain.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:54 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


"He's not on oxygen now."

Now, this very moment.

Now has passed. Hook 'em back up!

The FBI on May 30, 2019 published this. From Page 7 it is noted "Real conspiracies involving illegal, antidemocratic, or harmful activities by high level government officials and political elites have been exposed in the past and it has been argues that such plots have encouraged conspiracism in society." That quote references the book Real Enemies: Conspiracy Theories and Amverican Democracy, WW1 to 9/11.

So is telling the utter truth about "now" harmful enough to trigger the kind of complaint HR 1154 is trying to address? And if the "now" thing is ment to be false and misleading - what beyond posting "Surely This" on Metafilter should be the response?

I can't remember if the Bush twins ever lived in the White House

But there was the kerfuffel over one of 'em making a MP3 mix 'tape' and how that was a violation of the laws that had been signed. Was used as an example of how there are different rules for the leadership vs the rest of us.
posted by rough ashlar at 10:54 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Weekend at Donnie's.
posted by One Thousand and One at 10:54 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]


I believe Herman Cain is doing his tweeting.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:55 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Well, I sure hope this is not the next Smoleńsk (see: political aftermath and conspiracy theories).
posted by romanb at 10:55 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Clarification from WH doctor re: timeline. Spoiler alert - he misspoke.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:56 AM on October 3 [7 favorites]


A lot of his tweets are ghostwritten. That’s not new. We just mostly see the outrageous ones that aren’t.

> That's right. SJC currently has no quorum to report out a nominee (tho can do other things). Sen. Lee and/or Tillis would have to break their quarantine before the CDC-instructed 14 days to make the Oct. 12 hearing.

Lee and Tillis are only quarantining for 10 days.
posted by churl at 10:56 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Gabriel Sherman: Conversations w Republicans close to WH over last 12 hours indicate it’s been far more dire than WH has said. Before being taken to Walter Reed, Trump kept asking aides, “Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?” (Chera was Trump’s NYC friend who died of Covid in April)
posted by theory at 10:57 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


if the Dems on the committee refuse to show up, would that break quorum and meaning they couldn't go ahead?
posted by kokaku at 10:57 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


He's like some kind of bridge troll that has be tricked into giving useful information.

This administration sure does have a lot of people who don't pass the "would I fire my employee if they talked to me like that" test.
posted by ctmf at 10:59 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


Here in Iowa, the Trump campaign is continuing as before, having lots of indoor, mask-optional events filled with elderly Trump supporters. They're a death cult. I truly don't understand it.

I don't either. I want to know what is really going on in the heads of the people that are continuing to organize and hold these events as if nothing is wrong.
posted by wondermouse at 11:02 AM on October 3


if the Dems on the committee refuse to show up, would that break quorum and meaning they couldn't go ahead?


Unclear from my reading of the Jane Mayer twitter thread. There seem to be lots of rules with various implications. Any congressional rules experts around here?
posted by bluesky43 at 11:02 AM on October 3


Quick control-F looking for Conway. Nobody else has done it so I will:

Odds that George Conway tests positive, now that KellyAnne has? Their marriage has been a source of speculation for a loooong time (and now the messed up dynamics with their daughter are in the public eye too.) Do they share the same airspace within the family home? Did George move into the basement long ago? Are they canny lovebirds in cahoots to keep the family business alive to matter what?
posted by Sublimity at 11:04 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


if the Dems on the committee refuse to show up, would that break quorum and meaning they couldn't go ahead?


The assumption is that the Dems won’t show up and that all the Republicans will need to be present for quorum.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:04 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


theory: Before being taken to Walter Reed, Trump kept asking aides, “Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?” (Chera was Trump’s NYC friend who died of Covid in April)

Mother of mercy....
posted by tzikeh at 11:06 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


“There will be enormous constitutional questions around anything the House does if they fail to demonstrate a real quorum but plow ahead anyhow,” McConnell said during a floor speech.

He'll do proxy voting for Barrett, and the answer to those questions will be "IOKIYAR."
posted by tclark at 11:08 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


Sublimity, spouses don't always fall sick. Stephen Miller didn't catch COVID-19 from his wife, Katie, though they live together and have the same employer.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:09 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


The most poignant thing about the Trump asking, "Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?" is that you could imagine Pauly Walnuts saying it. OK, Tony saying it. Because that's who Trump is. And it's just another reminder of that. He shouldn't have let his ego take him this far - but of course he did. It's who he is. What he is, a walking Greek Tragedy. You couldn't write this fucking story though. Couldn't do it justice.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:12 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]


Follow-up from yesterday's "What's up with these long-time Democrats I know who are very concerned about civility & decorum & wishing the president a full & speedy recovery", it's quickly progressing to "I have been considering myself a centrist or an independent because I'm being attacked so much by both sides. I've been an ally for so long, why are you questioning me, this is divisive".

If these weren't people I knew IRL (back when knowing people IRL was a thing) I'd swear it was a textbook public-conversion presentation.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:13 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


GOP Seeks to Curtail Senate Work, but Not Barrett Hearings (AP News via US News & World Report, Oct. 3, 2020) Senate Republicans want to cancel legislative work until Oct. 19 as coronavirus rampages their ranks.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:14 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]


All of this speculation and tea-leaf reading about the president's health because we know we can't trust the official line is very late-Soviet-Union stuff.

I really wish I had taken note of the source, but I recall hearing a radio interview with a former US intelligence analyst about four years ago — I think between election and swearing in. He had been assigned to do Kremlinology in the eighties and he was talking about how they had to work with tiny scraps of information: this minister’s speech at the party congress was moved to a different slot last minute, that colonel is standing three spots away from the party chairman on the reviewing stand when last year he was five spots away. He said he could not say how immeasurably easier it would have been to topple the USSR if Brezhnev and Chernenko and the rest were broadcasting their grievances and frustrations twenty times a day to the world on some social media-type platform.

Now Kremlinology consists of speculating which staff member are writing the tweets nominally coming from the president*.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:18 AM on October 3 [27 favorites]


Stella Immanuel, the "demon sperm" doctor is apparently unhappy about the treatment he's getting.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:21 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


GOP Seeks to Curtail Senate Work, but Not Barrett Hearings

Sounds like they’re willing to risk their lives to pack the court. Some GOP senators are already infected and contagious; others are at risk. How do they choose who are the ones to attend? As a future senator once said to a Senate subcommittee, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?“
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:24 AM on October 3 [10 favorites]


The most poignant thing about the Trump asking, "Am I going out like Stan Chera? Am I?" is that you could imagine Pauly Walnuts saying it. OK, Tony saying it. Because that's who Trump is.

Trump is, at best, Matt Bevilaqua.
posted by bondcliff at 11:33 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]


I came across this on twitter: at the fund raising event, you know, the one with people paying $250,000 to eat somewhere near the plague bearing president? Buffet style.

It’s kind of astounding, or at least, it would be, but right now everything is astounding to the point that it’s just receding to a dull background roar of the unthinkable. Remember buffets? Remember them being part of all of those “oh, and here’s one more thing we’re not going to see for a long time” articles about how Covid is changing the way we do things? And, of course, by “we” I must always remember that “we” means the people who have to act as if our lives depend on avoiding not just Covid, but also the debilitating debt that comes with any kind of American hospital treatment. Certainly not the folks dropping $250k for a shitty buffet lunch with Typhoid POTUS.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:37 AM on October 3 [44 favorites]


@StephenKing: "Have to admit it sounds like one of mine. Except there should be tentacles."

I'm assuming the tentacles are waiting for the actual hearings.

"Judge Barrett, thank you for being here today. I won't keep you long, I just have a few ques- OH DEAR GOD, WHAT IS THAT!!!YAUUUGGGHHHHHHHCUTHULUF'TANGNGUUUUUGGGHHHHHHHHHHNOOOOOOOOOOIYIELDTHEBALANCEOFMYTIMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
posted by dannyboybell at 11:40 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]


So that it's here in this part of the long thread, the latest medical guidelines and terminology:

A Case, i.e. someone who has tested positive for COVID-19, should Isolate for 10 days from the onset of their symptoms or the collection date of their test sample if asymptomatic (which counts as Day 0).

A Contact of an infected person should Quarantine for 14 days from the date of their last exposure to the Case (which counts as Day 0 for that calculation), and they should get their own test 7 days after their last exposure.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:40 AM on October 3 [35 favorites]


>I want to know what is really going on in the heads

everyone implicitly considers the beliefs and opinions they hold to be internally consistent and correct.

part of the conservative world view is that non-conservatives are wrong about everything.

ergo if the "Reality-based Community" is for something, their wiring requires them to be opposed to it.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:41 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


Calling it here: if Trump dies, QAnon will reverse its celebrity clone theory, claiming that in this case it's the clone of Trump who died, in order that the true Trump could go underground to continue his heroic resistance to the Deep State
posted by Beardman at 11:42 AM on October 3 [10 favorites]


I came across this on twitter: at the fund raising event, you know, the one with people paying $250,000 to eat somewhere near the plague bearing president? Buffet style.

The notion that "rules only apply to them, not us"—a hallmark of conservatism—is ingrained at this point.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 11:42 AM on October 3 [19 favorites]


If they could clone functional copies of Trump, they would've unleashed hundreds of them on America years ago.

It wouldn't have been that hard, either, since each clone would only have to know how to say five or six specific phrases.
posted by delfin at 11:44 AM on October 3


A Case, i.e. someone who has tested positive for COVID-19, should Isolate for 10 days from the onset of their symptoms or the collection date of their test sample if asymptomatic (which counts as Day 0).

Why on earth does actually having the disease only mean 10 days when just waiting to see if you got it is 14? Why is it *shorter?* Why isn't it "wait until symptoms are gone or mostly gone" or anything like that? Especially with the long haulers?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:46 AM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Because once you're showing symptoms, you're already farther along in the window of time during which you're infectious. As far as I know there's no evidence that the "long-haulers" who have post-infection symptoms remain infectious: their symptoms are caused by a long recovery from damage to organ systems incurred during the infection, not (as far as I've read) an ongoing infection.
posted by biogeo at 11:50 AM on October 3 [21 favorites]


Exposure = Wait and see if symptoms develop.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:50 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Isolate: to prevent transmitting the disease to others while you are sick.

Quarantine: to responsibly wait and see whether you are going to get sick.

If on day 12 of your quarantine, you start to exhibit symptoms, then you start to isolate for 10 days more...
posted by brambleboy at 11:52 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


I’ve gotten oxygen every time I’ve been admitted to a hospital or under observation.

The weight of evidence now is that routine use of oxygen therapy even (especially?) in cardiac patients is actually harmful unless the patient's blood oxygen saturation is low. Standard practice now reflects this.
posted by neuron at 11:54 AM on October 3 [5 favorites]


It wouldn't have been that hard, either, since each clone would only have to know how to say five or six specific phrases.

I’d be entertained, in a decent-night-of-improv kind of way, by a presidential clone who could only respond to questions with, “Haul it out and let’s have a look at it,” “Quittin’ time,” “I’m not sure we have enough aardvarks,” and, “Are those all from Nebraska?”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:55 AM on October 3 [13 favorites]




If Trump pulls a 180 and suddenly becomes incredibly passionate and for universal health care, suffrage, solidarity with marginalized communities ... all the while using the same fervor that made him a darling among the rights, I'll be really really confused and I think this will be the perfect end of 2020.
posted by geoff. at 11:56 AM on October 3 [6 favorites]


I won't be confused. He's malignant and must be removed.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 AM on October 3 [14 favorites]



Updated CDC isolation guidance suggests that people with COVID-19 are unlikely to be infectious after ten days:


It's a testament to how much Trump has broken everything that I don't trust the fucking CDC anymore.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:58 AM on October 3 [27 favorites]


Edit: Trump pulling a 180 is not without precedence either. He's changed his political views on some very major, party defining issues. I could not see a Dick Cheney ever changing his views but I could see Trump doing it.
posted by geoff. at 11:58 AM on October 3 [1 favorite]


We're talking about the same CDC under fire for months now about the impartiality and accuracy of its guidance.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:59 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Odds that George Conway tests positive, now that KellyAnne has? Their marriage has been a source of speculation for a loooong time (and now the messed up dynamics with their daughter are in the public eye too.) Do they share the same airspace within the family home? Did George move into the basement long ago? Are they canny lovebirds in cahoots to keep the family business alive to matter what?

According to their daughter Claudia and her 🔥 TikToks the entire family is infected.

George in particular is pretty high on the risk factors.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:59 AM on October 3 [19 favorites]


I can't see a Trump about-face either; a tiny silver lining to this particular current mess is that the people taking all cues from him (including the mask avoidance) may stop putting off heading to the hospital when necessary, depending how deep into virus-hoax conspiracy territory they are.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:04 PM on October 3


Looking at todays news, it seems this second wave is worse than the first one. Like with the Spanish Flu. It also fits with my personal experience of what is going on. I've been taught to see WW1 as a big change in peoples perception, but I only heard about the flu when I was a PHD student, and never understood the implications.
Woodrow Wilson didn't have the flu (or did he?) but he failed to understand the fundamental changes in human life, and he has later been seen as a tragic person. Trump is just an idiot, but I think Biden needs to understand his historical role right now.
posted by mumimor at 12:04 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Yes, one of the biggest tragedies of the current situation is the loss of trust in the CDC. The guidelines I posted above, though, are also used by the DPH of the local health jurisdiction where I do contact tracing, which is considered one of the best in the U.S. and which even recently was rejecting CDC guidelines and sticking with our own when appropriate.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:05 PM on October 3 [40 favorites]


Yes, one of the biggest tragedies of the current situation is the loss of trust in the CDC. The guidelines I posted above, though, are also used by the DPH of the local health jurisdiction where I do contact tracing, which is considered one of the best in the U.S. and which even recently was rejecting CDC guidelines and sticking with our own when appropriate.

When I trust MeFi users more than Federal Government. Thanks for the info on that, definitely makes the information less suspect.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:07 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Yeah, this is the same CDC that altered its PPE advice for healthcare workers based on the availability of supplies instead of actual science; as an RN working at the bedside I have ZERO trust in their guidance. But someone asked why it was ten days of isolation for confirmed cases vs. 14 days of quarantine for people who were in contact with confirmed cases, and this is why.

It's worth noting that healthcare workers themselves are not expected to abide by these same guidelines. I had an exposure at work that met CDC criteria back on the 19th, wasn't informed by occupational health contact tracers until the 29th, and then waited another three days for test results. All the while I was expected to continue to work unless I developed symptoms.
posted by jesourie at 12:08 PM on October 3 [49 favorites]


Thank you for your service, jesourie. I bow daily toward all you healthcare professionals, who are truly "essential workers" in this dire time.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:14 PM on October 3 [26 favorites]


It's because it takes several days to develop the antibodies (or whatever) they're testing for, so if you pop positive on the test you're already about 4 days into the time period where you're contagious.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:19 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Antibody tests are for evidence of prior infection.

The typical covid test is a nasal swab PCR, which looks for viral DNA. As with most coronaviridae, you are contagious (shedding) before you're symptomatic.
posted by basalganglia at 12:25 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


Thinking about how between RBG, the taxes, and COVID-OTUS, all of the Chekhov's guns of this administration are going off in rapid succession....

We're getting the pee tape on Tuesday, aren't we.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:27 PM on October 3 [28 favorites]


Wouldn't it be great if whoever is controlling The Twitter right now just... went rogue?

I can dream.
posted by tzikeh at 12:32 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]


He's changed his political views

He has no political views. The only thing he thinks about is what benefits himself and the few things that aren't him that he cares about.
posted by Candleman at 12:35 PM on October 3 [53 favorites]


Updated CDC isolation guidance suggests that people with COVID-19 are unlikely to be infectious after ten days

I'm assuming that means "asymptomatic people," or "10 days after any verifiable symptoms," and not that people hospitalized for COVID are safe to treat without masks and other PPE.

The claim of "I'll isolate for 10 days and be back in time to vote" presumes that they won't actually get sick during those 10 days. They don't get to isolate for 8 days, come down with fever, cough, and fatigue, and head back to work.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:39 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


I have no idea what happens to the children of vanished wealth in non-fictional 21st century America

I recall reading something about how Elizabeth Holme's family had fallen from grace (wealth) and as a child, when asked what she wanted to do when she grew up that her response was - to get rich.

Then Theranos happened.
posted by porpoise at 12:39 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Auden and Humanized Mice, this is a hell of a thread!
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:46 PM on October 3 [13 favorites]


Yes, Isolation can end when two conditions are met: 10 days after onset of symptoms or from test collection date AND patient has been free of fever (without medicine) and significant symptoms for at least 24 hours.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:56 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Interesting, I attended a seminar by the first person to make a humanized mouse, and he said the Senator Brownback of Kansas said something like "this was the most evil science experiment ever".
posted by 445supermag at 12:58 PM on October 3 [10 favorites]


I see no reason to assume that Republican legislators infected with coronavirus will comply with isolation and quarantine guidelines considering the stakes. Will the Capital Police bar them from entering? I feel that is unlikely.
posted by glonous keming at 1:04 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


...the fund raising event, you know, the one with people paying $250,000 to eat somewhere near the plague bearing president? Buffet style.

To be fair, McDonald’s burger prices have gone up.
posted by cenoxo at 1:05 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]




Wouldn't it be great if whoever is controlling The Twitter right now just... went rogue?

If they had a sense of humor they’d just post “Covfefe”.
posted by meinvt at 1:06 PM on October 3 [20 favorites]


This is just to spray

I have infected
the Trump
that was in
the White House

with germs
he was probably
spreading
at debate

Forgive me
He was maskless
so dense
and so old
posted by benzenedream at 1:06 PM on October 3 [104 favorites]


He is hopeful the president will not need to go on oxygen in the future (a statement that asserts no factual information)
The president is not on oxygen now. (Meaningless because he could just mean at that exact moment. He also said the president was "slightly overweight", so he's apparently not opposed to excessively stretching the truth)
The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday. (today is Saturday)


News conference or LSAT practice: 2020 edition
posted by corb at 1:07 PM on October 3 [17 favorites]


And the election will be stolen, one way or the other, as expected: Nearly 2,000 DOJ Alumni Sign Letter with Dire Warning: Bill Barr Is Working to Rig 2020 Election for Trump
posted by tzikeh at 1:08 PM on October 3 [13 favorites]


[Friendly reminder this isn't a catch-all thread, it's just about Trump having covid. There are a couple of other open threads on election theft/voter suppression etc: thread 1 and thread 2]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:17 PM on October 3 [13 favorites]


The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday.

Man, if you really want to run that through the logic filter, it doesn’t even mean he wasn’t on oxygen Thursday and Friday. The statement can be true and consistent with the statement “the President was on oxygen Thursday and Friday.” Both statements could be true if there were times he was on oxygen, and times he was not on oxygen, during the 24 hours of each day (if he spent 23 hours on oxygen, and one hour not, it’s true that he was not on oxygen on Thursday [for a specific timeframe]. The only way to rule that out would be to add a qualifier like “at any time on Thursday and Friday.”

I mean it’s ridiculous but this crew would try it.
posted by Miko at 1:19 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]


If enough R senators become infected, and unable to work, can we take the senate? Like, 2 more and we have a majority, right? Immediately pass senate rules about quarantine and masks, and we can hold it past the election, I bet.
I mean, elections have consequences...but so does not wearing a mask.
posted by sexyrobot at 1:20 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Man, if you really want to run that through the logic filter, it doesn’t even mean he wasn’t on oxygen Thursday and Friday. The statement can be true and consistent with the statement “the President was on oxygen Thursday and Friday.” Both statements could be true if there were times he was on oxygen, and times he was not on oxygen, during the 24 hours of each day (if he spent 23 hours on oxygen, and one hour not, it’s true that he was not on oxygen on Thursday [for a specific timeframe]. The only way to rule that out would be to add a qualifier like “at any time on Thursday and Friday.”

Or maybe they meant the was on the Oxygen TV Network? Riddles upon riddles!
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:23 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


The White House has called a lid for the day -- tweet from Andrew Feinberg, 1:53PM, 10/3/2020

They called a lid in the middle of the day during a national crisis.

I know better than to jump to any conclusions without all the facts, but that's a pretty big fucking fact.
posted by tzikeh at 1:32 PM on October 3 [16 favorites]


What is "a lid"?
posted by Mitheral at 1:35 PM on October 3 [12 favorites]


When I supposed Donald Trump just might kill off the Republican party, I didn't imagine it to be so literal.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:36 PM on October 3 [46 favorites]


The president was not on oxygen on Thursday or Friday.

Not according to the AP.

Be vigilant about what Trump's people tell the press to tell you. They are inveterate liars, to a fault.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:37 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


Closing up for the day = putting the lid on it. Basically saying: nothing more to see here today.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:38 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Mitheral: What is "a lid"?

A full lid is when the Press Room is shut down for the day. No more questions, no more statements.

(I apologize - I assume everyone is a West Wing fanatic. I should have clarified.)
posted by tzikeh at 1:38 PM on October 3 [22 favorites]


lid
posted by WeekendJen at 1:38 PM on October 3


Or, per Twitter, the White House is a petri dish.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:39 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


If they had a sense of humor they’d just post “Covfefe”.

Cough-fefe, surely.
posted by hanov3r at 1:46 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


Coughfever
posted by zutphen at 1:47 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Covid-fefe
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:47 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Maciej Cegłowski weighs in on kremlinology:
Just a word of advice from an Eastern European. The medical news always gets rosier and rosier. Always count the doctors. They're not there to hold the healthy Great Leader back from bolting out of the hospital to do the people's work
posted by acb at 1:49 PM on October 3 [72 favorites]


Covid-jefe
posted by biscotti at 1:49 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]


Inside Walter Reed: The 'Nation's Medical Center' where Trump will be treated for coronavirus in a secure 'Presidential Suite' [with photos], Daily Mail, Natalie Rahhal, 10/2/2020. Except for modern medical equipment, the suite decor looks like the 1960s, and “The dining room in the suite is even lit by a crystal chandelier, meaning Trump can be treated to the luxuries he's become accustomed to”.
posted by cenoxo at 1:50 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Either that furniture goes or I do.
posted by mochapickle at 1:53 PM on October 3 [22 favorites]


What the heck kind of a hospital room has carpeting?
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:54 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


What is a lid ? His 'hair,' for one. And, incidentally,
You cannot body double that fucking hair.
Oh for chrissake, first of all, anything more than 30% filaments soaked in resin is not legally hair anyway but all the same, that lacquered sculpture can be all too copied and probably comes in too far a number of versions as it is. If indeed these lids are not mind controlling alien parasites as in The Lids of Donald Trump coming soon to a drive-in near you.
posted by y2karl at 1:57 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


The carpeting in that suite does seem like it would make sanitizing the area difficult. I hope his doctors have better than usual PPE.
posted by mrgoat at 1:59 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


I love you all but considering the significance and dynamism of the situation can we please remember the old megathread guidelines and try to keep quips and joke workshopping to a minimum? 🧡💛💚
posted by glonous keming at 2:00 PM on October 3 [51 favorites]


In fairness though, this isn't a megathread, it's a Trump has Covid thread, so there's bound to be an undercurrent of schadenfreude and glee.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:06 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


I read elsewhere that those pictures are from 2011 at the old Water Reede, and that the new Presidential floor is different.
posted by Miko at 2:09 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


The carpeting in that suite does seem like it would make sanitizing the area difficult.

It's not hard to sanitize carpet if you don't care whether it's dry. Standing in half of inch of bleach seems pretty safe to me.
posted by fatbird at 2:15 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


What Happens If Trump Is ‘Unable’ to Govern

A crash course in the 25th Amendment, from someone who was in the Justice Department when Reagan was shot. [Bloomberg News]
posted by tzikeh at 2:16 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Gotta wonder if Pence is shitting his pants right now
posted by tzikeh at 2:17 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


"Melania was sick, too. And the president is highly contagious — if you look closely at the footage of his departure, the helicopter pilot is in head to toe PPE."

The pilot wore his Marine uniform and a mask, not head to toe PPE.

https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/6724496_100220-cc-ap-trump-walter-reed-arrival-img.jpg?w=1600
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:19 PM on October 3 [18 favorites]


Pence is probably praying for Trump on the outside, but secretly beaming with joy on the inside. This is exactly the opportunity he's been waiting for.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:22 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


The pilot wore his Marine uniform and a mask, not head to toe PPE.

Their Marine uniform?

I know they are Marine Aviators, and VERY concentrated on the job of getting the president they are sworn to protect out of the helicopter, etc., but don't they look like they are scowling?

Or was it Navy Aviators?
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:30 PM on October 3


jonathanhughes, you’re absolutely right. I saw it from another angle and I regret the error. And thank you!
posted by mochapickle at 2:30 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


I would be guessing that Biden’s team has been researching lines of attack against Pence since Thursday. Remember that Pence was on the coronavirus task force which was pretty much ineffective. Whatever the case, I suspect they are not going to invoke the 25th Amendment unless Trump is in really bad shape and unable to communicate. If they were to invoke it against his wishes, there would be a backlash from their base.

We’re in some pretty crazy waters here. My hope - although campaign events that are being held today are not exactly encouraging - is that this encourages more people to wear masks. This can happen to anyone if caution isn’t taken.
posted by azpenguin at 2:33 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


"Or was it Navy Aviators?"

I can't tell if this is some weird reference or a joke that I'm missing, but I assume that since the helicopter is called "Marine One" that the pilots are Marines. Right?
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:37 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


In olden times a lid was a marijuana cigarette. I'm guessing they are begging for a joint.
posted by allthinky at 2:38 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Oh yeah, they're not going to invoke the 25th Amendment unless it's absolutely necessary. If they did it and Trump came back again he'd purge everyone that took control away from him. But Pence is a man of faith.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:40 PM on October 3


“But Pence is a man of faith“ has such an echo of “But Brutus is an honorable man” about it.
posted by wabbittwax at 2:49 PM on October 3 [24 favorites]


In olden times a lid was a marijuana cigarette. I'm guessing they are begging for a joint.

That would be a big joint. A lid was about an ounce of weed, the amount that would fit in the lid of a tobacco can.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:54 PM on October 3 [27 favorites]


Mike Pence is no Marcus Brutus. Brutus betrayed Caesar, a friend and father-figure, out of a greater sense of loyalty to the ideals of the Roman Republic. Mike Pence betrayed his oath of office and the highest tenets of his faith out of a greater desire for power to impose his will on his fellow Americans. Brutus's story is a sad tragedy. Pence's is a bad joke.
posted by biogeo at 2:55 PM on October 3 [22 favorites]


since the helicopter is called "Marine One" that the pilots are Marines. Right?

Dunno the specifics here but the Navy is the branch of the US military which has its own Army (the Marine Corps) as well as its own Air Force.

the lid of a tobacco can

Lid of a shoebox is how I always heard it.
posted by Rash at 2:56 PM on October 3


I wonder if Trump will get the same kind of turnout for his caisson trip down Pennsylvania Ave. that he did for his inauguration parade?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:57 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Same as Roy Cohn, people will go to his funeral “just to make sure the bastard’s dead.”
posted by wabbittwax at 3:00 PM on October 3 [22 favorites]


The opposite of love isn't hate. It's apathy.

I think you know what I'll be doing to mark his death should it occur.
posted by ocschwar at 3:03 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Roy Cohn died in Bethesda, Maryland, of a disease he had disavowed.
posted by mochapickle at 3:04 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]




I wonder if Trump will get the same kind of turnout for his caisson trip down Pennsylvania Ave. that he did for his inauguration parade?

To quote an old joke about a much-hated Hollywood mogul's funeral: "See? If you give people what they want, they will come out."
posted by Paul Slade at 3:09 PM on October 3 [17 favorites]


(Note: I may have gotten my anecdotes mixed up, and confused Roy Cohn with Harry Cohn, but looking into it, it seems that nobody is sure where that line about going to a funeral to make sure they’re dead actually came from ... anyway, /derail)
posted by wabbittwax at 3:10 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Were any members of SCOTUS at the Cony-Barrett announcement?
posted by Thorzdad at 3:11 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


FallibleHuman: Chris Christie has been hospitalized.

To be clear, Chris Christie hospitalized himself as a precautionary measure.

What fuckin' privilege. The news outlets are reporting it as "checked himself in" like it's the fucking Plaza.
posted by tzikeh at 3:13 PM on October 3 [40 favorites]


Also, according to Roger Stone, Roy Cohn’s longtime goal was to die broke, owing millions to the IRS.
posted by mochapickle at 3:13 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


...14 people in the president's orbit have reported positive diagnoses since Friday—more than the number of newly reported cases in the last 24 hours in Belgium, New Zealand, Singapore, Sweden, Taiwan, Thailand or Vietnam, according to the World Health Organization (WHO). [...] Other countries, including Afghanistan, Bhutan, Cambodia, Chad, Congo, El Salvador, Fiji, Ghana, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Mali, Mongolia, Nicaragua, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Turkmenistan and Yemen have reported under 14 cases in the past 24 hours as well. [...]

The U.S. has reported more than 7.2 million positive coronavirus cases since the pandemic began earlier this year, more than any other country in the world. -- Trump's Orbit Now Has More New COVID Cases Than Numerous Countries, Newsweek, Oct. 3, 2020
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:14 PM on October 3 [20 favorites]


In olden times a lid was a marijuana cigarette. I'm guessing they are begging for a joint.

I respectfully disagree. A lid is an ounce.


SNL: American Dope Growers Union
Dope Grower: “Soooo look for, the Union label…”

A group of other dope growers slowly surround her and join in the chorus.

Group:
“when you are buying your joint, lid, or pound
Remember somewhere, our Union’s growing
you’ll be smoking, at the best price around
posted by mikelieman at 3:16 PM on October 3 [10 favorites]


Cheech and Chong covered the question of "how many joints are in a lid?" in 1972.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:18 PM on October 3 [12 favorites]


The day of his positive results, Chris Christie also gets precautionary hospital admission and has already been started on remdesivir as well. Quite a difference between the have and have nots, when everyone else in America gets told to ride it out at home until they feel they’re at the point of imminent death.
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:19 PM on October 3 [80 favorites]


From yesterday morning's emergency Gaslit Nation episode (currently accessible if you're a $5 & up patreon supporter), quick partial excerpt:
Andrea Chalupa: 2:30ish, "Do not binge-watch the demise of your democracy, do not treat this like your favorite Netflix series. Make phone calls, text, postcards, all of it, I'm doing it this weekend. If Trump should die & Pence is President . . . you're still gonna have Ivanka and Jared as de facto President of the United States."
Kendzior: 4:30 "We've always said, the crisis we're going through is not just about Trump. It is a transnational crime syndicate masquerading as a government, and that doesn't magically go away if Trump loses an election and Biden comes in, it doesn't magically go away if Trump dies of COVID. . . . Jared and Ivanka and others in the administration have been building the policies . . . [Their] alliances with autocrats will continue unabated."
Chalupa: 11:30 "Everyone has to stay grounded in the Gaslit Nation 2020 Survival Guide, because if you let the news cycle knock you around, that's how they win. They create a lot of scandal to demoralize and disable us . . . The voters aren't being called. It's gonna come down to turnout. If people see how Trump is failing, they're gonna just assume the election's in the bag. They're not gonna understand that it's not unless they get a phone call from you, a text message from you, or a postcard from you saying 'Get your tuchus to the polls, or make sure you have your ballot in and it's all filled out correctly' . . . My big concern is that people are gonna just stop doing the work thinking that Trump's gonna die. "
Kendzior: 12:30 "Americans are gonna be inclined to binge-watch the Apocalypse, watching constant updates about Trump's health and trying to decipher all these rumors."
14:00ish, "Whether Trump has a fever, it's not something we can control. It puts us in a passive position where we're just spectators. We should be active participants. Go to the Gaslit Nation Action Guide, mobilize voters, don't take anything for granted."
20:30 Chalupa on taking action re Amy Coney Barrett: "Call your senators, flood their phones, tell them to get creative [like lawyers for death row prisoners] & throw every single delay they can imagine to slow down procedure. . . . Tell them to put a call out for all the creative lawyers in this country, we need a brain trust on how to slow this down. Call your senator, then call Schumer, then call Dick Durbin & demand they try every single thing possible to delay delay delay."

Now I'm logging out of metafilter and taking Andrea's advice to make calls/texts/postcards IRL for a few hours. Being an active participant in creating a new world vs being a horror-show spectator: yes I needed to hear that, typing it out here helped break my binge-watching brain-trance, maybe someone else might find it useful.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:24 PM on October 3 [76 favorites]


Chris Christie has tested positive for COVID-19 and gone to a hospital as a precaution. Thankfully traffic wasn’t a problem
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:26 PM on October 3 [36 favorites]


SNL season premiere tonight! If they all are drunk I won’t blame them.
posted by Melismata at 3:26 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]


NY Magazine: The White House Is Spreading Virus and Lies. Asked what it’s been like for insiders trying to get information about the president and the virus spreading through the government, a senior White House official told New York, “That’s easy. We don’t get any.”
posted by jocelmeow at 3:30 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


That NY Magazine headline is 7 months old.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:31 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment it’s vital for the Vice President and fifteen Cabinet members to have knowledge of the President’s present health condition so they can judge whether he’s competent to serve. Do they have that knowledge?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:34 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


Your Childhood Pet Rock: That NY Magazine headline is 7 months old.

URL says 2020/10 and the second sentence begins "With President Trump hospitalized for COVID-19 at Walter Reed medical center" - what are you seeing?
posted by tzikeh at 3:35 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


A White House that has been spreading virus and lies for 7 months.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:37 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


Axios: Covering a cover-up in real time. The bottom line: Multiple sources in the White House and on the campaign have reached out since Meadows' statement, and said they're utterly perplexed about what's going on. They, like us, have little confidence in what they are being told.
posted by jocelmeow at 3:42 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Melania’s chief of staff recently reported that she’s doing well, resting, and in constant contact with her husband. I refuse to believe the constant contact part.

I have no doubt that Donnie is on Melania's Constant Contact list and is receiving the same email blasts everyone else on the list is getting.
posted by wierdo at 3:47 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]


Is someone confusing 3/10/2020 (European notation) for 10/3/2020 (U.S. notation)?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:47 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


Jesus Christ I'm not talking about the literal date I'm talking about how the White House hasn't not been a source of virus and lies over the past 7 months.

Thank you for making me explain and subsequently ruin what I thought was biting wit.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:51 PM on October 3 [17 favorites]


CNN: Advisers made last-minute push to get reluctant Trump to Walter Reed.
Marine One was idling on the South Lawn Friday as President Donald Trump's advisers were inside the White House making a last-minute push to get him to board the helicopter.

The President, who had recently tested positive for coronavirus, was reluctant to go to the hospital, multiple sources familiar with what happened later told CNN. Though Trump had developed symptoms and was now on experimental drugs, he didn't want to be "hospitalized," he said.

posted by jocelmeow at 3:53 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


Another stolen joke:

Walter Reed is reporting that the President is in hypocritical condition.
posted by clawsoon at 3:56 PM on October 3 [47 favorites]


New Trump video announcement from Walter Reed. It is long and rambling, he still seems to resist the notion that anything he did cause this. But more importantly, what's with that oval office like setting in Walter Reed? I guess thinking on it, it isn't that surprising but I want a behind the scenes on this.
posted by geoff. at 3:57 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Apparently I'm the only one that wanted to see the Walter Reed Presidential Suite. It has a weird retirement home vibe. The White House decor looks dated. I think the inside out building in London has a similar weird 19th century boardroom inside an ultra-modern modern, brutalist building.
posted by geoff. at 4:00 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


That little spat about "literal dates" and "biting wit" has made me laugh in a way i haven't for ages... thank you metafilter!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 4:04 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


The bottom line: Multiple sources in the White House and on the campaign have reached out since Meadows' statement, and said they're utterly perplexed about what's going on. They, like us, have little confidence in what they are being told.

Have they tried asking the question in Russian?
posted by delfin at 4:04 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


To me, he talks like someone who has COPD.
posted by Quonab at 4:05 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


But more importantly, what's with that oval office like setting in Walter Reed? I guess thinking on it, it isn't that surprising but I want a behind the scenes on this.

You mean a suite intended for the holder of the highest office in the land might have an area setup to continue the work that holder of the highest office in the land might still be doing? Like I get that people are pissed that Trump is getting special treatment because he's a complete fucking buffoon but under normal circumstances with a president that actually gives a shit, having a place for said president to keep having meetings with an almost continual stream of people would be a necessity.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:06 PM on October 3 [24 favorites]


(Not that I think he does, but the breathing pattern is similar).
posted by Quonab at 4:06 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


having a place for said president to keep having meetings with an almost continual stream of people would be a necessity.

I am in no one way surprised in the least that a world leader or even a private citizen would have a suite where they could continue to conduct business. The wood and cloth aesthetic is what seemed off to me. I would've expected something more bland and modern.
posted by geoff. at 4:10 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


I can’t help but wonder when this clip was actually recorded—immediately on arrival, or (actually) this evening?
posted by blue suede stockings at 4:13 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


MetaFilter: Thank you for making me explain and subsequently ruin what I thought was biting wit
posted by mazola at 4:13 PM on October 3 [55 favorites]


But was he wearing pajamas?
posted by MtDewd at 4:13 PM on October 3


Also, people were wondering the president's temperature or heartbeat. There was just a research paper that came out that uses blood flow to the face to detect deepfakes. Since this works on the principal of PPG (photoplethysmography) or basically the heart beat, you could conceivably use it to figure out what his heartrate is and use other deepfake detection software to determine temperature. It wouldn't be that hard but since there's not a github repo I can just pull down and run it is beyond my interest in doing so.
posted by geoff. at 4:16 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


Actually looks like there's a github page right here. Surprised CNN and the rest aren't running it.
posted by geoff. at 4:18 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


The wood and cloth aesthetic is what seemed off to me. I would've expected something more bland and modern.

IIRC the government furniture all comes from a huge government catalog that you have to pick from. It’s all under contract from formally contracted sources, so it’s not like you can just hop over to Design Within Reach and order the showroom. There are channels.

I worked at a navy facility in pennsylvania in the early oughts and the regional legal counsel, who had the second fanciest office there (chambers and anterooms!), was proudly showing off his newly redone office. Like this set of rooms at Walter Reed, it was cherrywood veneer and stodgy Federalist style and gilded eagles out the wazoo. Plus burgundy carpet! It’s hideous but I think that’s sort of the regional standard of the time.
posted by mochapickle at 4:18 PM on October 3 [12 favorites]


Miko > I read elsewhere that those pictures are from 2011 at the old Water Reede, and that the new Presidential floor is different.

After further research, you’re right.

One of the photo captions in the Daily Mail article states “The living room is seen in these photos of the suite from 2007.” These old photos are also shown in another article, Inside the former Walter Reed Army Medical Center VIP treatment ward, The Californian, 10/3/2020.

Per WP, the original “Walter Reed Army Medical Center” hospital in Washington, DC was used from 1909 until 2011, when it was replaced by the new “Walter Reed National Military Medical Center“ (WRNMMC) hospital in Bethesda, Maryland (where Trump is now).

As explained in Inside Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital’s VIP treatment ward: This is what President Trump can expect, Click2Houston, 10/2/2020; the WRNMMC has an entire floor reserved for high-ranking military/government patients. Perhaps for security reasons, this article doesn’t have any photos of the VIP ward. If I find any publicly available photos, I’ll post links in a follow-up comment.
posted by cenoxo at 4:20 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Trump’s Covid Treatments Suggest a Serious Condition (NY Times)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Ahmad Khani at 4:24 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Actually looks like there's a github page right here. Surprised CNN and the rest aren't running it.

i looked at the repo and briefly entertained getting that up and running then saw that it's written in C at which point i pointedly left.
posted by lazaruslong at 4:28 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]




https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-sen-ron-johnson-went-to-oktoberfest-party-after-testing-positive-for-covid-19
U.S. Senator Ron Johnson tested positive for COVID-19 on Friday. But, after finding out he had the virus, which has killed more than 220,000 Americans to date, the Wisconsin Republican still chose to attend an Oktoberfest fundraising dinner that evening.

Johnson, who didn’t reveal his diagnosis until Saturday, justified his behavior in comments to the Madison, Wisconsin Capital Times by saying he only took his mask off when it was time to address the crowd. He also insisted that he was “at least 12 feet from anybody” during his speech at the event, which was sponsored by the Ozaukee County Republican Party. It was held at the River Club of Mequon, a self-described “casually elegant private club committed to personal service.”

...
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:34 PM on October 3 [33 favorites]


NYT doesn't note the suspect misspelling and word misuse in "conley's" walk back. Nor that it is unsigned.
posted by j_curiouser at 4:41 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Misspelling and word misuse?
posted by saturday_morning at 4:43 PM on October 3


Johnson, who didn’t reveal his diagnosis until Saturday, justified his behavior in comments to the Madison, Wisconsin Capital Times by saying he only took his mask off when it was time to address the crowd. He also insisted that he was “at least 12 feet from anybody” during his speech at the event,

This is not how viruses work of course, but showing total disregard for the health and wellbeing of one's constituents is not currently in the Republican wheelhouse.

Swerving, I think it's legit ok to run attack ads based on the idea that the current regime ignored scientists, hosted a superspreader event and put the whole executive branch of the government in mortal danger. It's true and it can be couched in all the "while we're sorry they had to get sick themselves to realize this" language needed to satisfy centrist anxiety for norms.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:45 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


Vanity Fair: “This is spiraling out of control”: Allies Panic About Trump's Hospital Stay as White House Deflects. On Friday, Trump grew visibly anxious as his fever spiked to 103 fahrenheit and he was administered oxygen at the White House, according to three Republicans close to the White House.
posted by jocelmeow at 4:47 PM on October 3 [20 favorites]


i looked at the repo and briefly entertained getting that up and running then saw that it's written in C at which point i pointedly left.

Throughout the video with motion tracking and and some additional chrominance adjustments from here and a couple other random git repositories I have it running against Trump's video. Mine showed a resting heart rate of 66 bpm. Trump averaged around 54 bpm. I assume he has makeup on, has studio lighting that could easily mess up my test, and probably on sedatives or something that is impacting his heart rate. I saw a couple spikes up to the mid 80s when he moved but that could be the motion tracking catching up.

I have a heart monitor and could get my accurate resting heart rate as a comparison, please hold.
posted by geoff. at 4:51 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]


From the Vanity Fair article jocelmeow posted:
“It’s weird that all these Republicans are getting it,” a prominent Republican told me.


NO IT'S NOT, MOTHERFUCKER!
posted by heteronym at 4:56 PM on October 3 [116 favorites]


The OpenCV method is likely highly inaccurate, this one is better. If anyone thinks they can get this together quickly or wants to help out message me. I have an RFP I have to respond to that I'm delaying but I'm willing to give this a go tonight for science and if I get some recognition it would help put some ML stuff I've done out in public instead of hidden elsewhere. geoff. needs to eat!
posted by geoff. at 4:56 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Ok this thread is getting weird now.
posted by bondcliff at 4:59 PM on October 3 [43 favorites]


geoff., I ran some tests on a much older version of that method for measuring pulse from video a few years ago. In my hands at least I found it to be unreliable outside of very controlled test conditions: the assumptions built into the algorithm basically force some kind of pulse-like signal to appear (or at least they did in the version at that time). I dropped it as it didn't seem useful for my research and didn't follow up any further, so maybe things have progressed with that technique, but I'd take its results with a grain of salt. But if you try it on yourself with objective pulse measurements and get a good match, that would be cool. Try measuring with at least two pulse rate conditions if you can: once after sitting quietly and once after jumping around to elevate your heart rate.
posted by biogeo at 5:03 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Per the Oktoberfest: They are such a death cult.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:04 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


To address a debate from much much earlier in the thread, the NYT report says that the Regeneron treatment had two antibodies - one that comes from mice and one that comes from a human donor.
posted by muddgirl at 5:11 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Washington DC had 50 new cases between October 1st and 2nd. This outbreak is going to add a sizeable bump. (I updated and posted my 50 state and DC report for the prior week.)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:12 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


I'd really appreciate it if some mefi folk could do some analysis of the trump videos, for edits and cuts, if for nothing else (but hey, if someone determines the one from yesterday where his face looks like it's pasted onto his body is a fake, I'd wanna know that, too). These videos are being presented as primary sources for the conclusion that Trump is doing fine right now, and like all statements by this administration, they need to be examined and tested. I know how to parse his doctor's statements for weasel words and improbable walkbacks, but I don't have the skills to do that kind of analysis of video manipulation. It seems clear to me that there's at least one cut in the most recent video (editing out a cough or something, I'd imagine), but I'd appreciate more expert input on how much these videos are manipulated, and I generally trust y'all.
posted by mabelstreet at 5:13 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Okay for comparison I used a CVS Digital Blood Pressure Monitor CVSBPAUAUTO #271245. I'm 35 yo male, 5'10" at 160 lbs. with no known medical conditions and get a 8 mile jog in a day. Anyway I'm at 95 BPM resting. The OpenCV algorithm logged me at between 48-50 BPM. Another person who is closer to Trump's age but otherwise in good health and has told me "not to put it on the Internet" clocked in resting at 99 BPM. The OpenCV software had them at 50-54 BPM. I think I'm not adjusting for the frame rate correctly.

In any case we've learned I probably need to workout more and that Trump is alive, has somewhat of an elevated heart rate, maybe perhaps assuming that the software is consistently wrong. I'm going on my jog and will try it after to get a post workout heart rate.
posted by geoff. at 5:20 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


95 BPM and 99 BPM resting? I think you and your friend are a little wound up!

(you're not the only ones)
posted by inexorably_forward at 5:25 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]


This is some next level Kremlinology. Off to do more text banking ...
posted by benzenedream at 5:25 PM on October 3 [24 favorites]


"only Republicans get it" is a conspiracy theory with *legs*
posted by joeyh at 5:26 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]


I think the videos are real but I've had severe asthma attacks during which I could totally talk for 30 seconds without seeming crazy sick. I even walked into an ER once in the middle of an attack and the attendant assumed I was talking about someone else because I seemed fine, until I basically collapsed.

The real sign of trouble here is that Trump isn't tweeting random weirdness about Rosie O'Donnell or Biden/Harris right now. Even when I've been in a hospital bed on oxygen and nebulizer treatments I would have totally been able to spend all day tweeting on a smartphone. (Fortunately for me this was all 20 years ago and I didn't have a smartphone.)

Maybe the doctors convinced Trump that cellphones have to be turned off in the hospital because they might affect the equipment.
posted by mmoncur at 5:27 PM on October 3 [21 favorites]


the late walk back on the "onset 72 hours ago" is in the form of a letter tweeted by kayleigh.

- says it's from conley
- conley didn't originally claim 72 hours, another MD did
- Regeneron is misspelled
- "polyclonal" is used where it's basically the direct opposite of "monoclonal". Regeneron therapy is monoclonal antibodies.
- the letter is unsigned, where all previously released comms from Conley are signed.

The implication is that Kayleigh made it up as propaganda to obscure onset on Tuesday.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:29 PM on October 3 [20 favorites]


PRESIDENT IVANKA WTF
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:32 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


huh? what is going on in this thread.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:33 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


16 years of President Ivanka? I dislike this FWIW
posted by rainy at 5:34 PM on October 3


For years I've been suspecting that Trump will live to age 95, never leave office because everyone lets him stay there, declares himself emperor, and Empress Ivanka takes over after that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:35 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]




Sry, Wednesday morning.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:36 PM on October 3


I see we've all pulled out the dank nugs tonight
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:37 PM on October 3 [32 favorites]


one that comes from mice and one that comes from a human donor.

That's almost certainly where the original antibodies came from, but almost certainly not how it's being manufactured.

I expect that they sequences these antibodies (well the the long and short chains of your antibody, sent that out for synthesis, put that in a cell line (I'd bet on CHO based on looking at other Regeneron products I could find data for), let them self assemble, had long meetings about glycosolation, settled on a purification scheme, analytical suite and formulation. When they were done I rather doubt any molecule touched anything that wasn't for a master cell bank that the agency blessed years ago and which has never been exposed to anything murine of human unless the guy who vialed it was bad about his technique.

Also, GlcNAc is the most fun word in biochemistry.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:41 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


walk back, way better than my assertions, via dkos.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:46 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


Immediately pass senate rules about quarantine and masks, and we can hold it past the election, I bet.
I mean, elections have consequences...but so does not wearing a mask


How about change the rules on Supreme Court confirmation to two thirds majority real quick?
posted by nzero at 5:54 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


U.S. Senator Ron Johnson tested positive for COVID-19 on Friday. But, after finding out he had the virus, which has killed more than 220,000 Americans to date, the Wisconsin Republican still chose to attend an Oktoberfest fundraising dinner that evening.

We need laws to prosecute people who do this.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:55 PM on October 3 [32 favorites]


I can't believe I spent four minutes of my life watching the Walter Reed video. All I can think of is six words.

Don't you think he looks tired?
posted by Ruki at 5:56 PM on October 3 [43 favorites]


We need laws to prosecute people who do this.

Yes, and I'm old enough to remember exactly who wanted those sorts of laws when it was the AIDS virus in question.
posted by Miko at 5:56 PM on October 3 [59 favorites]


That dkos breakdown is good. I also find it very fakey that a doctor would be like "I didn't mean 72 hours, I meant Day 3." I'm a civilian, but that seems to me very un-doctor-like. Who cares what calendar day it is when this illness is something we count in hours? IT's too imprecise.

Either way, man, Conley is so for sale.
posted by Miko at 5:59 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


Such a law would overwhelmingly be used to prosecute the poor and powerless, like underpaid workers who have no option but to work when sick. The Senator Johnsons of the country would never be charged.
posted by R343L at 6:02 PM on October 3 [37 favorites]


Chris Christie makes 25.

Wait, has anyone figured out trumps R-naught yet?
OMG, he might out-infect that bride in Maine.
posted by sexyrobot at 6:08 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


'Man accused of trying to spread coronavirus at Michigan grocery store could face domestic terrorism charge'
posted by clavdivs at 6:08 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]


fun fact: Pence could theoretically serve 3 terms which seems cosmologically impossible.
posted by clavdivs at 6:11 PM on October 3


The real sign of trouble here is that Trump isn't tweeting random weirdness about Rosie O'Donnell or Biden/Harris right now.


Considering our experience with Herman Cain, RIP*, the absence of tweets may be a useful haruspical signal, but tweeting isn't always correlated with good health.
*America’s first minimum-wage law, passed by Congress in 1938, allowed states to set a lower wage for tipped workers, but it wasn’t until the ’60s that labor advocates persuaded Congress to adopt a federal tipped minimum wage that increased in tandem with the regular minimum wage. In 1996, former Godfather’s Pizza CEO Herman Cain, who was then head of the National Restaurant Association, helped convince a Republican-led Congress to decouple the two wages. The tipped minimum has been stuck at $2.13 ever since.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:14 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


Scions of the Trump family have been born rich for generations, and with notable exceptions the process does not seem to produce nice people.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:19 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


For those interested in the testing cycle (or frequency), Biden was not again tested today but "plans" on getting tested tomorrow.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:23 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


We're getting the pee tape on Tuesday, aren't we.

i've never left you, i've been with you always.
posted by pee tape at 6:49 PM on October 3 [173 favorites]


Live tweets from 1942 @RealTimeWWII
The Führer is now on a daily experimental drug cocktail, including opiates, methamphetamine, tranquilisers & hormones. Hitler's personal physician, Dr. Theodor Morell, gives him dozens of pills & injections every day.
5:28 PM · Oct 3, 2020
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:04 PM on October 3 [20 favorites]


Such a law would overwhelmingly be used to prosecute the poor and powerless, like underpaid workers who have no option but to work when sick. The Senator Johnsons of the country would never be charged.

Anacharsis got there about 2600 years ago:
Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them.

posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:09 PM on October 3 [25 favorites]


I'd really appreciate it if some mefi folk could do some analysis of the trump videos, for edits and cuts, if for nothing else...

Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.
posted by sideshow at 7:14 PM on October 3 [63 favorites]


Such a law would overwhelmingly be used to prosecute the poor and powerless, like underpaid workers who have no option but to work when sick. The Senator Johnsons of the country would never be charged.

This. Anyone who thinks a law like this wouldn't immediately be used to arrest any black person that so much as coughs is deluding themselves.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:22 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


The fact that QAnon believers are concerned about media manipulations by those in power does not actually have any bearing on whether or not we should be concerned about media manipulations by those in power. Just like the fact that QAnon believers are convinced that the government shelters & protects serial sex predators doesn't mean we should conclude that the government does not shield & protect serial sex predators. They are confused about the details, and the perpetrators, but the evil being used to stoke their paranoia is actually real.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:30 PM on October 3 [17 favorites]


the evil being used to stoke their paranoia is actually real.

I'm not sure what that means -- are you saying there really are child-rape camps, but they're on Venus, and run by Republicans instead of Mars and run by Democrats?
posted by aramaic at 7:32 PM on October 3 [3 favorites]


I just can’t with those ghostwritten tweets. They lack the hatred and vitriol to which I’ve become accustomed. Where’s the baseless accusations? Complaints about the food? Random hit outs and Paranoid digs at Biden / the establishment? You disappoint.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:32 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

Sorry no, you really can't both-sides that comment and the shit at your local favorite QAnon message board. The commenter here stated their premises reasonably, based on a history of lying and malfeasance from the people we pay to theoretically tell us accurate information about the state of our government.

On the other hand, your local QAnon message board may have people asking questions about the integrity of video content shared by Democracts, but their premises are that (((Democrats))) are running a secret international child sex trafficking ring and literally drinking baby blood.

Equating the two is gross.
posted by lazaruslong at 7:34 PM on October 3 [36 favorites]


The fact that QAnon believers are concerned about media manipulations by those in power does not actually have any bearing on whether or not we should be concerned about media manipulations by those in power.

Where we go one, we go some, maybe. Tons of us don't at all, actually.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:34 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


TIRED: the video was made upon arrival yesterday

WIRED: it's a deepfake, man
posted by Ahmad Khani at 7:36 PM on October 3 [10 favorites]


Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

There's an important difference. Conspiracy theorists assume from the outset that what they're looking at is fraud, and if they can't immediately prove it, it just means that the fraud is even more subtle and devious than they previously imagined. However, I see no evidence to suggest that Mefites can't take "no, there's no evidence of fraud here" for an answer. It's only natural for people to be suspicious of information coming from sources that they distrust; the important distinction between critical thinking and paranoid conspiracy theories is a commitment to seeking concrete evidence and the grace to accept that you may be wrong.

I'm not sure what that means -- are you saying there really are child-rape camps, but they're on Venus, and run by Republicans instead of Mars and run by Democrats?

Or, perhaps, the turtle's teeth was referring to documented accusations of child sex abuse against Trump himself, and his well-known connections to Jeffrey Epstein? This is a pretty extreme straw man. If you really didn't understand what the turtle's teeth meant, couldn't you have tried to ask for clarification without such a snarky dismissal?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:39 PM on October 3 [14 favorites]


are you saying there really are child-rape camps, but they're on Venus, and run by Republicans

Don't be silly. They're in Arizona and being run by the DHS.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:40 PM on October 3 [37 favorites]


I'm saying that Republicans have a very spot-on track record of accusing their opponents of what they in fact are guilty of doing, or would like to do, or are trying to find the means to do.

QAnon is becoming mainstream among the GOP. If there is a sizable contingent of QAnoners insisting that the other side is "winning the PR war with deepfake videos", we should absolutely expect that Republicans are going to include that in their arsenal whenever it proves expedient for them.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:40 PM on October 3 [13 favorites]


Friendly reminder that attempting to interpret vital signs in a vacuum is basically meaningless. Vital signs need to be interpreted all together and in the context of a persons baseline, medical history, presenting complaint, etc. Without that information it’s just random numbers for the most part.
posted by supercrayon at 7:44 PM on October 3 [23 favorites]


These people can’t even make their own memes — they retweet them from teenage Nazis. They’re definitely not producing deepfake videos at the drop of a hat.
posted by neroli at 7:44 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


Equating the two is gross.

Well, stop trying to use “YouTube based blood flow analysis to secretly determine a medical diagnosis of a major policial figure”, and you won’t get associated with that other group of people who literally do exactly the same thing.
posted by sideshow at 7:45 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


It's fine to look for obvious edits in the video, like there's pretty clearly a cough that was likely edited out, but doing bizarre analysis of pulse and blood pressure with tools that would only ever work in a controlled environment, or trying to figure out if things were filmed in front of a green screen, or debating a particular shade of green the president is turning, or trying to assume medical diagnoses based on nothing more than speculation of what you think an individual symptom sounds like is completely unproductive and is basically just going to lead to the spread of more disinformation, which we clearly don't need right now.
posted by mikesch at 7:45 PM on October 3 [15 favorites]


[I think maybe everybody just pumps the brakes here a little. In the absence of actual news we don't need to spin off excess energy going in a dozen directions on this speculative stuff and metaanalysis thereof.]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:47 PM on October 3 [59 favorites]




we should absolutely expect that Republicans are going to include that in their arsenal whenever it proves expedient for them.

That assumes a level of competence that Trump has never demonstrated before now.

Look, folks, Trump doesn’t do conspiracies — he just accuses others of them. Rather, he bullshits and tells easily-disproven lies until you’re worn down and just give in to whatever he wants. Guile, cleverness, and subtlety are simply not in his skill set.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:54 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]


So tonight Sen. Lindsey Graham had a debate with his challenger, one Jaime Harrison. And because Graham had been in close contact with Sen. Mike Lee, who has since tested positive, Harrison showed up with a plexiglass shield he set up around his podium.

The optics are....*Chef's kiss*
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 PM on October 3 [83 favorites]


I know that numbers are meaningless without the full diagnostic pictures. But I would love to know his ferritin and fibrinogen levels. Imagine calling critical values to the nurse taking care of potus.
posted by MaritaCov at 8:11 PM on October 3


If the video discussion stuff was related to me, let me be absolutely clear since I got a bit nerd excited:

Using images to determine blood flow (PPG) is a well known technique with scientific validity. For example, it is used in hospitals to determine heart rate of infants via reading their hands. The paper I cited for deep fakes recently came from Bruce Schneier's blog, a security research of high repute. Since I didn't know about PPG before this and because I'm in the computer vision field right now I was curious if I could determine with a degree of accuracy Trump's heart rate. Sanjay Gupta or some other medical expert I believe was on CNN saying we didn't know Trump's vitals such as heart rate. I absolutely did not believe the Trump video was a deep fake, but I can see how it might've come off as that since I did find this in a roundabout way via a paper about deepfakes.

After coming back from my jog I was at 110 bpm and after some calibration the algorithm does give a pretty accurate pulse rate it seems with a rough accuracy of 5-10 bpm.

I wasn't going to say anything more simply because there was nothing to add on this, but I wanted to make sure it was clear that this was just a "hey neat" sort of thing.
posted by geoff. at 8:16 PM on October 3 [35 favorites]


I can't believe I spent four minutes of my life watching the Walter Reed video. All I can think of is six words.

Don't you think he looks tired?


I haven't looked at the video, just seen screen caps... but yesterday I did see him get off the helicopter on TV, or board it, I forget which, and his face was that of a depressed and tired teenager, I swear. It was odd...
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:33 PM on October 3


My read on the video is that.... he basically looks a bit sick. There are no obvious-to-me signs of drugs propping him up, but he also doesn't look quite well. His breathing doesn't look labored, but he does sound a bit off. I guess it's possible that the video was taped yesterday rather than today, but I fail to see what the payoff would be to sit on it for a single day.

Perhaps this opinion is going out on a limb, but the video seems kinda like a nothingburger to me.
posted by tclark at 8:36 PM on October 3 [18 favorites]


Axios, quoting Mark Meadows on Fox just now, (bolding added):
White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows told Fox News Saturday night that President Trump's blood oxygen level had "dropped rapidly" after he was diagnosed with the coronavirus, but he's now "doing well."

...
"You know, he had a fever and his blood oxygen level had dropped rapidly ... and yet, in typical style, this — this president was — was up and walking around and, even as the experts from the medical facilities not only at Walter Reed but also Johns Hopkins, got there, they — they looked at his situation and recommended that, out of an abundance of caution, that he come here to Walter Reed," Meadows added.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:39 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


Don't you think he looks tired?

Heh, ISWYDT.
posted by suelac at 8:39 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.

That was my internal response to the rampant "obviously he's faking/lying about it" from early Friday onward.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:43 PM on October 3 [7 favorites]


It was my external response!
posted by Justinian at 8:44 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]


"but yesterday I did see him get off the helicopter on TV, or board it, I forget which, and his face was that of a depressed and tired teenager, I swear. It was odd..."

He was wearing a mask ( hard to believe, I know).
posted by jonathanhughes at 8:49 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]


@JenniferJJacobs (Bloomberg News):
NEWS: One of Trump’s personal assistants has tested positive for coronavirus, sources tell me. Nick Luna, as bodyman, works in very close proximity to the president so it’s not surprising.

Another factor that is unsettling White House aides tonight is Nick Luna is married Cassidy Dumbauld, who is an aide to Jared Kushner. More people in the circle around Trump’s senior adviser diagnosed with coronavirus.
posted by gwint at 8:54 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]


geoff - the video discussion didn't start with your posts; they quoted mine:

I'd really appreciate it if some mefi folk could do some analysis of the trump videos, for edits and cuts, if for nothing else...

Take this video discussion, change out Trump for Hillary/Obama/Soros/whatever, and you can find these comments practically verbatim at your favorite local QAnon message board. It is literally the same sort of stuff.


By no means was I trying to start conspiracy theories; rather, I was asking for help on analyzing the credibility of a type of text (digital video) where I lack the experience to do so adequately myself. Just as some people can look at a photo and immediately see the "photoshop disaster" in it (and just as I can spot the suspicious hallmarks in a white house press release that purports to be written by a doctor), I supposed there must be people who can do the same with video. Trump's people aren't trustworthy, and I'd need assistance in order to tell if video is one of the ways their untrustworthiness is manifested--someone to tell me "yeah that cut is suspicious, and it actually looks like they did two other cuts," or "looks like they used image stabilization (?) and that's just an artifact," or "actually it looks pretty normal." Not sure that qualifies me for a Qanon message board.
posted by mabelstreet at 8:55 PM on October 3 [5 favorites]


Shout out to all my fellow sober mefites.

Hear, hear. And given that a "day" now seems to last about 72 hours, feel free to switch over to "one hour at a time" mode.
posted by mabelstreet at 9:03 PM on October 3 [19 favorites]


That was my internal response to the rampant "obviously he's faking/lying about it"

my immediate response included "he could be faking/lying about it, he's Trump, he's a faker and a liar, I'd be a fool not to allow for the possibility". But just because something's plausible doesn't make it so. And so far I've seen/heard nothing conclusive in that regard. And more to the point, I haven't encountered anyone from what I'd call the rational left (or wherever anti-Trump types find themselves) insisting that he is in fact lying/faking, let alone providing compelling evidence -- so yeah, I'm inclined to think the President has gone and gotten himself bitten by the disease he refused to take seriously.

What a foolish ass!
posted by philip-random at 9:51 PM on October 3 [1 favorite]




These hospital address videos are like the 2020 version of the tapes we used to get from Osama Bin Laden.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:58 PM on October 3 [22 favorites]


Everyone in a 12-step program should receive a five-year chip for surviving 2020 sober.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:03 PM on October 3 [75 favorites]




Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them.

This is a valid point, and I'm willing to admit my privilege in not considering that angle. But, if regular citizens can be arrested for intentionally spreading the virus, rather than accidentally, then congresscritters and other elected officials should be held to the same standard. Multiple members of the GOP, in just the last 5 days, have INTENTIONALLY gone to places where they are not wearing a mask AFTER they had a positive covid test. They should be prosecuted. They should be held in the same jails that are killing Americans by the score every day. They should not have special access to miracle drugs, they should be forced to live or die by the consequences of their own action.

I am tired of there being no rules for Republicans, while the rest of us slowly descend into madness from being quarantined. My husband's mother passed away this morning. Alone in a hospital, after decades of being a nurse and bringing comfort to thousands. That makes 5 people I will never get to see again since this pandemic started. I'm tired of the GOP's shit. I have no more fucks to give.

I want them to suffer consequences. I want to believe in a just world. I want justice.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:12 PM on October 3 [96 favorites]


I just want a mental vacation from the constant stream of Republican lies and chaos and callous treatment of innocent people's lives.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:40 PM on October 3 [24 favorites]


As virus spreads across GOP ranks, some Republicans say party will pay price for ‘stupid’ approach Washington Post (via MSN)
“There was a panic before this started, but now we’re sort of the stupid party,” said Edward J. Rollins, co-chairman of the pro-Trump super PAC Great America. “Candidates are being forced to defend themselves every day on whether they agree with this or that, in terms of what the president did on the virus.”
posted by kristi at 10:42 PM on October 3 [23 favorites]


I've been calling them the Stupid Party for years, I'm glad it's finally catching on.
posted by mmoncur at 10:44 PM on October 3 [21 favorites]


I think framing it as stupidity de-empathizes the contempt for human suffering, and that the RNC isn't much more then pro-business and ethnology-chauvanist, meaning they're centered on contempt for human suffering when it's workers and when it's people of other ethnicities and heritages.

> As virus spreads across GOP ranks, some Republicans say party will pay price for ‘stupid’ approach Washington Post (via MSN)

Buried at the bottom:
Meanwhile, RNC and Trump campaign volunteers are going to keep up with ongoing field efforts, such as door-knocking campaigns, even though in-person fundraisers have been canceled, party officials said.

On Saturday, a group of top Republicans carried on campaigning in Iowa. For Gov. Kim Reynolds (R) and Trump political adviser Marc Lotter, among others, the road trip across the state was business as usual.

Lotter tweeted out photos from the tour, including a shot of Reynolds and Republicans without masks and high-fiving indoors. Posters with “Trump 2020” and “Trump: Keep America Great” were on the wall.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:07 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


I don't want to go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, but what the heck is going in with the reflections in this photo?
posted by bink at 11:18 PM on October 3 [2 favorites]


RNC isn't much more then pro-business and ethnology-chauvanist, meaning they're centered on contempt for human suffering

Trumpism, however, is focused on being able to flaunt the rules of the out-group if you are the in-group. That's why tribalist mask hate took hold; Dear Leader didn't like masks and Dems did, thus mask avoidance became a way to trigger the libs!!!1! Unfortunately for them viral transmission is not some postmodernist propaganda fight. SARS-Cov-2 is relentless and doesn't care about news cycles. They brought a propaganda bullhorn to a biology knife fight.
posted by benzenedream at 11:20 PM on October 3 [34 favorites]


Jenna Johnson, Dan Morse, Amy B. Wang and Brent D. Griffiths in The Washington Post:
“Their president is hospitalized, but that hasn’t changed their view of the coronavirus”
“If the leader of the free world can get this, I think it’s kind of silly for the rest of us to pretend a $3 handkerchief from Walmart is going to protect us,” said Brian Westrate, the Wisconsin Republican Party treasurer who believes the coronavirus is a real threat and complies with a statewide mask mandate but is a “skeptic of the societal response.”
Miranda Devine in The New York Post: “‘I’m going to beat this,’ Trump tells Rudy Giuliani of COVID-19 during phone call”
The president dictated a statement to Giuliani:

“You go tell people I’m watching this coverage [reporting he’s taken a turn for the worse].


“I feel I could get out of here right now. But they’re telling me there can always be a backstep with this disease. But I feel I could go out and do a rally.

“I am the president of the United States. I can’t lock myself in a room. … I had to confront [the virus] so the American people stopped being afraid of it so we could deal with it responsibly.

“We have made tremendous progress on treating this disease. Fatality rates are very low compared to [the beginning].

“I’m going to beat this.“Then I will be able to show people we can deal with this disease responsibly, but we shouldn’t be afraid of it.

“If I had handled it any other way, I would have created more panic, more fear in the American people.“We are making great progress on dealing with this disease and making better progress with the economy than anyone had the right to expect.”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:44 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]


But what is he going to do to make sure that everybody has access to the level of care he's getting?

[rhetorical question... I know, nothing... ugh]
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:50 PM on October 3 [11 favorites]


The president dictated a statement to Giuliani

Now we have two problems.
posted by ryoshu at 11:53 PM on October 3 [40 favorites]


Since when has Trump relied on dictating statements to anyone in order to communicate to the public? Why isn't he tweeting instead? And why does his dictated statement sound like something Giuliani would say, rather than something he would say?
posted by biogeo at 11:53 PM on October 3 [10 favorites]


He did records a similar video later in the day.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:57 PM on October 3


U.S. Senator Ron Johnson tested positive for COVID-19 on Friday. But, after finding out he had the virus, which has killed more than 220,000 Americans to date, the Wisconsin Republican still chose to attend an Oktoberfest fundraising dinner that evening.

Correction:
Editor's Note: This story has been updated to reflect that Sen. Ron Johnson was still awaiting the results of his COVID-19 test when he attended the Oktoberfest. He says he got the result that he was positive afterward.
Johnson's still a piece of work, though, who's been speaking out against mask mandates, and who spent most of his time on the Homeland Security Committee using his position in a witch-hunt to smear Hunter Biden.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:02 AM on October 4 [9 favorites]


Editor's Note: This story has been updated to reflect that Sen. Ron Johnson was still awaiting the results of his COVID-19 test when he attended the Oktoberfest. He says he got the result that he was positive afterward.

This is still entirely irresponsible. You test, you stay home. Because if you're going out and about after the test and you're positive, you're spreading it. If you're out and about after the test and you're negative, you might catch it before you get your results back, which will lead you to spreading it.

In brief, christ what an asshole.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:16 AM on October 4 [46 favorites]


There's more than enough wild speculation throughout this thread, so I should be perfectly clear that I don't believe this to be true..

But nevertheless there is a part of me who hopes that we one day learn that Chris Christie didn't actually test positive for COVID-19 but checked himself into the hospital anyway because he was deeply hurt by once again being left out of whatever all of the members of the inner circle were doing.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:22 AM on October 4 [67 favorites]


I think the videos are real but I've had severe asthma attacks during which I could totally talk for 30 seconds without seeming crazy sick. I even walked into an ER once in the middle of an attack and the attendant assumed I was talking about someone else because I seemed fine, until I basically collapsed.

Shit, I suffered a collapsed lung and not only did I have the presence and energy - while basically actively dying and sweating so much and in so much pain I thought I was having a severe heart attack - to put my pants back on, pack a bag with my laptop and charger and some snacks and needful things.

And then I negotiated a Seattle Fire Department response telling me I was having a panic attack that they really needed to call an ambulance because I was certainly not having a panic attack and I was actively dying.

And then I ended up doing tech support in the ER coming out of a profanol full sedation stupor a bit too early for a chest cavity intubation because I heard someone say "the computer isn't responding" and I automatically said "Do you need to save any data? No? Press and hold the power button until it turns off and then turn it back on again!" and as I was coming out of my super cool trippy milk-of-amnesia fog I finally was aware of like 12 ER staff wondering how and why the fuck I was awake and doing tech support and making a note they might have malpractice suit on their hands if I wanted to make a stink about coming out of sedation waaaay too early while they were still working on that vacuum tube stuck right in my ribs.

Nah, we're cool. Glad to be awake and helpful. Get that data into my chart and get that vacuum tube going and keep that oxygen flowing, we're super cool.

I'm not that remarkable. People are capable of some super intense things when it comes to either survival or keeping up appearances and trying to be ok.

I see we've all pulled out the dank nugs tonight

Not yet, but that's mainly because I forgot my dank at home and I've been at work all day. Give me like 15 minutes to catch up, please.

Oh shit, I just realized I'm in a John Brunner novel. We're just missing packet-based public transport pods.
posted by loquacious at 1:28 AM on October 4 [71 favorites]


Also this timeline is fucking *bonkers* and I don't have this "Executive/GOP catches C19!" on my bingo card full of crazy stuff for 2020. Like most people I have "giant meteor" but I also have "zombie dinosaurs" and worse.

Here's a Stephen King plot twist for you:

Assume Trump "recovers" and "wins" the election. Except, y'know, there's this cognitive degradation thing that's increasingly a known thing as a result of surviving C19 infection.

In this Stephen King plot we have a class Alpha "mad king" thing going on with a modern twist.

But almost everyone else is going mad, too, but they don't have the mindfulness or experience to know they're going totally mad and irrational.

I'm not really kidding or joke workshopping. People are increasingly going kind of bonkers due to the isolation and stress of all this - before we even address any of the cognitive issues of being infected or catching C19. The pace of modern life and global awareness as we know it today wasn't really a thing in 1918-1920.

I was already kind of bonkers so my question is mainly this: Is this a fast zombie or slow zombie movie?
posted by loquacious at 1:40 AM on October 4 [16 favorites]


Looking at todays news, it seems this second wave is worse than the first one.

Watching the English-language Israeli TV channel i24 News a few minutes ago I was interested to see a story about a hospital in Haifa that is only just now converting its parking garage into a covid ward as a preparatory measure.

† Extremely politically conservative, to the right of Fox News I'd say from my limited viewing.
posted by XMLicious at 1:43 AM on October 4 [2 favorites]


COVID-19 could cause your hair to fall out

The most common symptom was fatigue, followed by muscle or body aches, and shortness of breath or difficulty breathing. Many also reported effects on the brain like difficulty concentrating or memory issues.

Would he even notice the difference?

Another noteworthy finding was that over 400 patients said they experienced hair loss.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
posted by adept256 at 1:59 AM on October 4 [5 favorites]


Y'know, it's not even multi-level chess for the Trump side to encourage side talk that things are much worse than the official line, and maybe even the videos are fake, so that the swift recovery when it comes is even more miraculous and Trump-affirming.

It was kind of ham-handed for the secret White House source to speak more or less on the record, tho.
posted by chavenet at 2:01 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]


Also this timeline is fucking *bonkers* and I don't have this "Executive/GOP catches C19!" on my bingo card full of crazy stuff for 2020.
Why not? From the moment Trump made mask-wearing a political issue, you just had to wait until the coronavirus reached red states.

It's also worth noting that the infections spreading out over those red states now is only the first wave. This will get worse, and if Republicans continue to be the party of stupid, they will eventually pay for it. I bet some are hoping Trump doesn't get elected so they can get back to just being evil.
posted by mumimor at 2:57 AM on October 4 [7 favorites]


Why not? From the moment Trump made mask-wearing a political issue, you just had to wait until the coronavirus reached red states.

I truly believed he and his ilk perpetuated the maskless thing only to keep their base in line with the idea that the administration did a great job, it isn’t a big deal etc all the while as a famous germaphobe Trump and the crew was lock down solid on everyone around them, with constant testing and actual distancing in person.

But at least the second part obviously didn’t happen, or else we’re not here. And it’s conceivable he does come out of this and then continues to downplay the virus despite his getting the very best care.

The worst situation for the GOP I think is his survival with minimal or not obvious lasting effects, while their donor base and Senators spread the virus around like an hors d'oeuvre platter of death.
posted by glaucon at 3:31 AM on October 4 [6 favorites]


We've already seen how Trump will spin this, assuming he recovers. "I beat the virus for all of America! Has Biden even fought the virus? No! Only I can save us because I have personally fought this virus and won! Biden hides from the virus with his giant mask but I faced it and defeated it!"

I can't imagine this will sway anyone to vote for him, but I've been wrong before.
posted by mmoncur at 3:40 AM on October 4 [20 favorites]


Interesting aside on the discussion over walking around looking fine while having low blood oxygen -- some scientists think they've found the reason this is happening to covid patients. An article popped up the other day in Amsterdam's newspaper Het Parool about the brain damage that's caused by covid. (It's in Dutch. Pro-tip, deepl is better than Google if you need a translation.)

tl;dr: One place the virus attacks is the area that senses low blood oxygen levels. Usually low blood oxygen would make you tired and weak, but since the regulator system in your brain isn't working those symptoms don't get triggered so you don't "feel" it.. you just eventually collapse. There's more in the article -- olfactory nerve damage that destroys your sense of smell, other damage that gives you the brain fog, memory loss, and ADHD-like symptoms, etc. Interesting and scary read.
posted by antinomia at 3:45 AM on October 4 [40 favorites]


Trump’s Hollywood Walk of Fame Star Vandalized by Someone Dressed as the Hulk

They've started digging into the psychedelics in the writer's room.
posted by chavenet at 4:01 AM on October 4 [15 favorites]


did they edit out a coughing fit here?

please help i feel like i'm turning into one of those people that circles stuff in red
posted by um at 4:09 AM on October 4 [7 favorites]




God i hope the hospital serves Chris Christie meatloaf for Sunday dinner
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:08 AM on October 4 [15 favorites]


I don't want to go down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, but what the heck is going in with the reflections in this photo?

It's a little counter-intuitive but nothing prevents a reflection of something being visible even when that thing itself is blocked from view. And if reflections didn't work that way, they'd have zero reason to fake it because a desk can simply be nonreflective.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 5:09 AM on October 4 [2 favorites]


Heh.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:13 AM on October 4 [11 favorites]


Were this a normal Sunday during this administration and Trump hadn't started the day with a tweet storm complaining about SNL, we'd joke that he must be dead or in a coma.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:40 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]


So I guess nothing will change from all this. Assuming he recovers... he’ll have a new talking point to campaign with, that he “beat” coronavirus. And he still won’t wear a mask. Once you’ve recovered, why would you need one?
posted by kira at 6:23 AM on October 4


72% of Americans think Trump did not take appropriate virus precautions, according to a new ABC/Ipsos poll

“In the wake of Trump's diagnosis, the survey also found an increasing number of Americans concerned that they, or someone they know, will be infected with the virus. Eighty-one percent are either very or somewhat concerned about contracting COVID-19, compared to 72% two weeks ago. The percentage of "very concerned" respondents rose 8 percentage points, from 29% to 37%.

“The overall jump can be almost entirely attributed to Republicans, whose net concern increased 18 points (52% to 70%), and independents, whose concern increased 13 points (69% to 82%). Democrats held steady at 86%.”
posted by glaucon at 6:27 AM on October 4 [31 favorites]


Once you’ve recovered, why would you need one?

Is it possible for a recovered COVID patient to still be a carrier/transmitter in any way? Or, are they now totally immune and safe to be near?
posted by Thorzdad at 6:29 AM on October 4


We're still not sure if infection leads to immunity, and we can't yet know how long immunity lasts. The best thing to do since we are unsure is to just wear a damn mask.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:31 AM on October 4 [35 favorites]


So I guess nothing will change from all this. Assuming he recovers... he’ll have a new talking point to campaign with, that he “beat” coronavirus. And he still won’t wear a mask. Once you’ve recovered, why would you need one?
The election is less than a month away. People are already voting. Assuming he recovers, even if he has a very mild case, he's not going to have a whole lot of time to change the narrative. And there's no reason to think that he's going to have a very mild case. Even if he eventually recovers, he may be out of commission until after the election is over.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:37 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]


72% of Americans think Trump did not take appropriate virus precautions, according to a new ABC/Ipsos poll

28% is a lot... how did the pollsters reach so many people living in caves without TV or internet?
posted by Foosnark at 6:43 AM on October 4 [5 favorites]


Is it possible for a recovered COVID patient to still be a carrier/transmitter in any way? Or, are they now totally immune and safe to be near?

I think we're fairly certain you stop being a transmitter otherwise the pandemic would move in much different kinds of ways. But re-infection is definitely possible. There are several cases accepted by the medical community, although I don't think they understand the conditions under which it happens and it's certainly rare.
posted by dis_integration at 6:46 AM on October 4 [5 favorites]


When You Can be Around Others After You Had or Likely Had COVID-19, CDC.gov, 9/10/2020:
At this time, we have limited information about reinfections with the virus that causes COVID-19. This is a new virus, and CDC is actively working to learn more. We will provide updates as they become available. Data to date show that a person who has had and recovered from COVID-19 may have low levels of virus in their bodies for up to 3 months after diagnosis. This means that if the person who has recovered from COVID-19 is retested within 3 months of initial infection, they may continue to have a positive test result, even though they are not spreading COVID-19.

There are no confirmed reports to date of a person being reinfected with COVID-19 within 3 months of initial infection. However, additional research is ongoing. Therefore, if a person who has recovered from COVID-19 has new symptoms of COVID-19, the person may need an evaluation for reinfection, especially if the person has had close contact with someone infected with COVID-19. The person should isolate and contact a healthcare provider to be evaluated for other causes of their symptoms, and possibly retested.

CDC recommends that all people, whether or not they have had COVID-19, take steps to prevent getting and spreading COVID-19. Wash hands regularly, stay at least 6 feet away from others whenever possible, and wear masks....
posted by cenoxo at 6:46 AM on October 4 [6 favorites]


We've already seen how Trump will spin this, assuming he recovers. "I beat the virus for all of America! Has Biden even fought the virus? No! Only I can save us because I have personally fought this virus and won! Biden hides from the virus with his giant mask but I faced it and defeated it!"

And even if it doesn’t have the intended effect on the election itself, we’ll still end up with 40% of the US in a covid party death cult, complete with invitations and balloons. And superfestive instagrammed covid testing result parties so widespread and creative and pyrotechnic that whatever’s left of the country will catch fire.
posted by mochapickle at 6:48 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]


These days, I have been getting a real the-ant-and-the-grasshopper feeling of satisfaction whenever I take a long, deep breath of fresh air.

This carefree, casual breath is why I wear my mask.

This is why I wash my hands.

This is why I take vitamin D supplements.

This is why I don't hug my friends, don't go to restaurants, don't go to movies, don't do all those things I used to love to do with other people.

This lungful of air is what my efforts have bought me. Simply life. Life without coughing—without struggling for breath, terrified, intubated and sedated, in a hospital bed surrounded by strangers.

Maybe someday I'll draw that three-of-a-kind, and I'll take my turn in that hospital bed. But I've removed as many cards as I can from my deck. If COVID-19 is how I go out, I want it to be because I was the unluckiest son-of-a-bitch on planet Earth.

I'm not done breathing yet.
posted by springo at 6:49 AM on October 4 [104 favorites]


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Democrat Joe Biden opened his widest lead in a month in the U.S. presidential race after President Donald Trump tested positive for the coronavirus, and a majority of Americans think Trump could have avoided infection if he had taken the virus more seriously, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Sunday.
posted by robbyrobs at 6:52 AM on October 4 [16 favorites]


a majority of Americans think Trump could have avoided infection if he had taken the virus more seriously, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Sunday.

This is why I was rolling my eyes over the conspiracy theory that he was faking it for some kind of political gain.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:59 AM on October 4 [19 favorites]


28% is a lot... how did the pollsters reach so many people living in caves without TV or internet?

This is your regular link to the Crazification Factor
posted by mumimor at 7:06 AM on October 4 [25 favorites]


Trump’s Covid Treatments Are Aimed at Preventing Severe Illness (NYTimes)
Outside experts pointed to the therapies as signs that the president’s health may not be as good as his doctors said. His age, weight and gender put him at high risk.
It pretty much sums up all the medical questions and doubts we have discussed in this thread. I really don't get why they aren't honest about it. I know there are precedents for presidential healthcare to be secretive, but I can't see any good reason for this, other than a culture of consistent obfuscation in the White House.
posted by mumimor at 7:15 AM on October 4 [3 favorites]


After punching himself in the face for 90 minutes on Tuesday, he wasn’t doing himself any favors already. NBC WSJ polling post debate.
posted by Harry Caul at 7:17 AM on October 4 [6 favorites]


As a bit of an, um, antidote, to people heading down the rabbit hole of "doctored" videos or green screens or body doubles or whatever, here's an example of what this bunch of ripe sucks and fools are actually capable of when it comes to creating propaganda:

Twitter thread by Jon Ostrower regarding the two "working hard!!" photos released last night:
The photos released by the WH tonight of the president working at Walter Reed were taken 10 minutes apart at 5:25:59 pm and 5:35:40 pm ET Saturday, according to the EXIF data embedded in both @AP wire postings that were shared by the White House this evening.
IOW, they got him dressed, took a picture of him "signing" things (and multiple people have noted that he seems to be "signing" blank pieces of paper (with a Sharpie, of course)), threw a jacket on him and shuffled him off to another room for another fast photo op, clearly trying to give the impression that he's been doing stuff for hours, only, oops, they forgot to strip the data (or didn't realize it existed) that only proves that they kept him upright for about 15 minutes.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:23 AM on October 4 [75 favorites]


TTTCS, but that is landslide territory!
posted by mumimor at 7:23 AM on October 4 [6 favorites]


Maybe someday I'll draw that three-of-a-kind, and I'll take my turn in that hospital bed. But I've removed as many cards as I can from my deck. If COVID-19 is how I go out, I want it to be because I was the unluckiest son-of-a-bitch on planet Earth.


Hi, from an unlucky son-of-a-bitch!

I know that it's satisfying that people's active bad habits are coming home to roost, but maybe we could refrain from making getting COVID a moral failing. I'd sure appreciate it. As would everyone else who had the bad luck of getting sick during a pandemic, and also all of the people who haven't had the ability to take all those steps, especially since they're the ones most likely to be devastated finically by the fall out.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also the most "wash your damn hands, put on a mask, follow local and national guidelines" person you're ever going to meet. Largely because there's always going to be people who are vulnerable, for one reason or another, and those of us that can help slow the spread owe it to them to do what we can. I just happen to believe that thing that we can do includes not adding social stigma on top of serious illness.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:28 AM on October 4 [108 favorites]


dis_integration: for some reason I can't follow your first link. But my understanding (which comes from listening to a lot of TWIV) is that immunity does not stop you from getting infected, just from getting sick. So the question is, can your level of infection, if you are re-exposed, be high enough be infectious? I'm worried that because asymptomatic people can spread the disease, those who are immune can also spread it if they get infected even though they don't get sick. But of course, it could be that if you are immune and get infected your immune system kills off the infection before your viral load gets high enough for you to exhale it in sufficient quantities to infect someone else. Maybe I should write in a question to TWIV, or maybe we have an immunologist around who has a better understanding of how these things work.
posted by antinomia at 7:30 AM on October 4 [1 favorite]


Study Confirms It’s Possible to Catch COVID Twice, WebMD, Brenda Goodman, 8/24/2020:
August 24, 2020 — Researchers in Hong Kong say they’ve confirmed that a person can be infected with COVID-19 twice. There have been sporadic accounts on social media sites of people who say they’ve gotten COVID twice. But scientists have been skeptical about that possibility, saying there’s no evidence it happens.

The new proof comes from a 33-year-old man in Hong Kong who first caught COVID-19 in March. He was tested for the coronavirus after he developed a cough, sore throat, fever, and a headache for 3 days. He stayed in the hospital until he twice tested negative for the virus in mid-April.

On Aug. 15, the man returned to Hong Kong from a recent trip to Spain and the U.K., areas that have recently seen a resurgence of COVID-19 cases. At the airport, he was screened for COVID-19 using a test that checks saliva for the virus. He tested positive, but this time, had no symptoms. He was taken to the hospital for monitoring. His viral load -- the amount of virus he had in his body -- went down over time, suggesting that his immune system was taking care of the intrusion on its own.

The special thing about his case is that each time he was hospitalized, doctors sequenced the genome of the virus that infected him. It was slightly different from one infection to the next, suggesting that the virus had mutated -- or changed -- in the 4 months between his infections. It also proves that it’s possible for this coronavirus to infect the same person twice....
More details in the article. The fact that COVID-19 mutated between infections/hospitalizations creates problems for rapid, effective vaccine development and treatment:
...It also suggests that immune-based therapies such as convalescent plasma and monoclonal antibodies may be of limited help over time, since the virus might be changing in ways that help it outsmart those treatments....
There probably won’t be any miracle cures, hence the emphasis on continued avoidance and prevention.
posted by cenoxo at 7:40 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]


I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder. I've tried to google but it's probably too early for actual research.
posted by mumimor at 7:45 AM on October 4 [2 favorites]


I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder.

I live in one of the places that has had a big spike among the young, and from what state authorities are saying, it's much more an "expect horses" situation. Younger people got the message they weren't as high-risk, really pushed hte boundaries of social distancing this summer at parties and outdoor bars and vacation houses, and are now returning to school settings. That spike can be explained mainly by these behavioral factors.
posted by Miko at 7:59 AM on October 4 [21 favorites]


My dad is 79 and in pretty terrible health. He smoked for forty years. He had a stroke. He had a valve replacement. He has diabetes, high blood pressure, and low functioning kidneys. In July, he tested positive for Covid-19. He was admitted to the hospital and was put on oxygen immediately. I was not allowed to visit with him in the hospital. He sounded very weak and reported a fatigue that exceeded any fatigue he had felt before. It has been five years since the death of my father might be something that surprised me. The worst part was thinking that he was in that room alone.

Then a week later the hospital called me to tell me they were discharging him. It came out of nowhere. Was he going to hospice? Nope. He was being discharged because he was off oxygen and his symptoms had subsided. His assisted living facility would not take him back until he tested negative, so he had to go to a different place an hour away. He stayed there for about a month. That particular facility was more of a rehab facility, so he received more physical therapy than he ever had for the month he was there. Finally, he returned to his regular assisted living facility. They reported that he was stronger and had more stamina than at any time in the past two years. I guess all of that extra physical therapy really made a difference for him.

So -- in a sense -- Covid-19 improved the health of my father.
posted by flarbuse at 8:02 AM on October 4 [77 favorites]


I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder.

The young get more press (think of the children! and a need for some to show a statement made by some bully at a pulpit abotu how kids are gonna be alright) and are close together now (increasing viral load in confined spaces) VS the 1st time where society sent them home.

Now add in the effect of cold. Back in the early 2000's sciencedaily.com had an article about a (Brittish?) study where they put people's feet in cold water and this told the body to efffect a change in the nose which made the participants more likely to become infected to the virus used in the test. Thus the winter will have an additional effect.

Now add in Vitamin D and its lack of natural production in winter. Eventually studies about the rates of infection in Northern VS Southern hemisphere will help drive home what the CDC officially is not saying about D.

At least those 2 can have compensating behavioural changes made for not a whole lotta money. Suppliments and dressing like you are going ice fishing.

Mutation MAY have an effect - just like the anti-mask America could result in a mutation which takes SARS-COV-2 and makes it more like SARS. But there are other reasons for the observation of the the youth and the COVID-19.
posted by rough ashlar at 8:03 AM on October 4 [4 favorites]


I'm wondering if mutations are the reason the second outbreak we are going through here is hitting the young far harder. I've tried to google but it's probably too early for actual research.

Almost certainly not. AFAIK there’s currently no evidence for viral strains of different pathogenicity, despite some sensational preprints to the contrary (which have been widely criticized within the virology community). In America, anyway, the young are getting hit harder this time around because they are going back to school/work/bars/etc, whereas they weren’t in the Spring. Has there been an uptick in deaths/severe disease rates among young people where you are, or just a rise in infection rates?

(IANAV, just a fan of them.)
posted by disentir at 8:04 AM on October 4 [10 favorites]


Well, stop trying to use “YouTube based blood flow analysis to secretly determine a medical diagnosis of a major policial figure”, and you won’t get associated with that other group of people who literally do exactly the same thing.

Good thing no one was trying to do that then, phew!

I am disappointed that no one seems to have picked up on the C joke i was trying to make re: pointers though. Me and my dank nugs thought we were so clever last night. Puns in the harsh light of a Sunday morning are not as pretty.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:04 AM on October 4 [9 favorites]


...that only proves that they kept him upright for about 15 minutes.

Just long enough for The Donald to act like everything is fine right now. It’s the appearance of normality at any given moment that counts, not worn-out facts from the past or wild speculations about the future. Who are you going to believe, President Trump or your lying eyes and ears?
posted by cenoxo at 8:06 AM on October 4 [5 favorites]


Let's be very cautious when looking at an anecdotal case or two. The current best thinking is that someone who has recovered from COVID-19 might be vulnerable to reinfection, but not before three months have elapsed. There are plenty of preliminary results on "mutation" but that's a very general word, and the results have been mixed. Rapid vaccine development is exactly what is happening, at unprecedented speed. And of course only time will tell how effective they are initially, and how long their effects last. But let's be thoughtful and let science do its thing when we see just a couple of outlier cases, and preliminary, inconsistent, inconclusive information on mutations.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:07 AM on October 4 [8 favorites]


Virus don't get together and decide to mutate in the same direction. You can have strains being selected by selection pressures, but still those need to circulate.

There can be general selection pressures (which will not always produce the same mutations) that could select somehow for youth. (Higher testosterone as a wild, off the top of my head, example.)

Viruses tend to have a general selection pressure to weaken. I believe the first wave of HIV infections (1980-85) were more virulent than later strains.

This is because if someone is infected with a virulent strain, that person is more likely to be self-isolating or in a hospital quickly. Those strains that are weaker will have carriers (people) who are more likely to go out there and expose more people.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at