an obscure lawyer from west Michigan stood on principle
November 25, 2020 5:36 AM Subscribe
We must not attempt to exercise power we simply don’t have,” declared Van Langevelde, a member of Michigan’s board of state canvassers
“... Van Langevelde is a Republican. He works for Republicans in the Statehouse ... which made Van Langevelde’s vote for certification all the more remarkable. With the other Republican on the four-person board, Norman Shinkle, abstaining on the final vote—a cowardly abdication of duty—the 40-year-old Van Langevelde delivered the verdict on his own. At a low point in his party’s existence, with much of the GOP’s leadership class pre-writing their own political epitaphs by empowering Trump to lay waste to the country’s foundational democratic norms, an obscure lawyer from west Michigan stood on principle.”
“... Van Langevelde is a Republican. He works for Republicans in the Statehouse ... which made Van Langevelde’s vote for certification all the more remarkable. With the other Republican on the four-person board, Norman Shinkle, abstaining on the final vote—a cowardly abdication of duty—the 40-year-old Van Langevelde delivered the verdict on his own. At a low point in his party’s existence, with much of the GOP’s leadership class pre-writing their own political epitaphs by empowering Trump to lay waste to the country’s foundational democratic norms, an obscure lawyer from west Michigan stood on principle.”
Long article but pretty good. We tend to scoff at the idea of a good Republican, and it's usually warranted, but the article notes that this guy Van Langevelde is already getting threats related to his vote and that the State Police have arranged a security detail. His decision has had consequences for him, his wife and kids. Remember, this is the state where militias planned to kidnap the governor, and possibly put her on trial and execute her, if the reporting is accurate.
posted by martin q blank at 6:04 AM on November 25, 2020 [47 favorites]
posted by martin q blank at 6:04 AM on November 25, 2020 [47 favorites]
I watched a portion of this hearing/vote on the livestream and have to say he was impressive.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 6:17 AM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 6:17 AM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
That poor guy is going to be looking over his shoulder probably for the rest of his life. Being a principled republican in Michigan these days is putting a target on your back. I imagine the security detail assigned to him after his vote isn't going to be there in perpetuity.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:21 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:21 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
I gotta say I hate the phrasing that "militias planned to put her on trial." It lends legitimacy to a situation better described as "terrorists planned a show-trial stunt and a murder."
posted by stevis23 at 6:23 AM on November 25, 2020 [119 favorites]
posted by stevis23 at 6:23 AM on November 25, 2020 [119 favorites]
This is the state I left when my wife and I moved to MN. This is the state you get when GOP members are cowardly and self-serving enough to put their political ambitions ahead of common human decency. This is the state that I hope remembers full well who failed them, and how, when the midterms roll around.
Every single GOP lackey who compromised their integrity, their honesty, and their ethics to support a flailing, loser, lying bully must be held accountable for their stupid asinine destructive behavior. 45 is a horrible person because he likely has some sort of narcissistic personality disorder and can't help but act like a child. But the rest of them? They deliberately CHOSE to enable this shit. The angry orange toddler wields power because these spineless fuckers LET him. They chose to enable death threats and armed protestors and violation of election laws and expected to be able to do so with impunity.
I will always like the state because I lived there so long. But this? This is not the state I remember. This is something else and it needs to just fucking end. We desperately need compassion, sanity, and some goddamn enforceable ethics back in our political system. We need real, serious penalties for politicians who violate the public trust, for persons who deliberately and knowingly spread lies and pretend it is "news".
posted by caution live frogs at 6:25 AM on November 25, 2020 [28 favorites]
Every single GOP lackey who compromised their integrity, their honesty, and their ethics to support a flailing, loser, lying bully must be held accountable for their stupid asinine destructive behavior. 45 is a horrible person because he likely has some sort of narcissistic personality disorder and can't help but act like a child. But the rest of them? They deliberately CHOSE to enable this shit. The angry orange toddler wields power because these spineless fuckers LET him. They chose to enable death threats and armed protestors and violation of election laws and expected to be able to do so with impunity.
I will always like the state because I lived there so long. But this? This is not the state I remember. This is something else and it needs to just fucking end. We desperately need compassion, sanity, and some goddamn enforceable ethics back in our political system. We need real, serious penalties for politicians who violate the public trust, for persons who deliberately and knowingly spread lies and pretend it is "news".
posted by caution live frogs at 6:25 AM on November 25, 2020 [28 favorites]
I gotta say I hate the phrasing that "militias planned to put her on trial."
Agree. My apologies. Writing quickly and early and before coffee, and incorrectly just quoted the reporting.
posted by martin q blank at 6:29 AM on November 25, 2020 [26 favorites]
Agree. My apologies. Writing quickly and early and before coffee, and incorrectly just quoted the reporting.
posted by martin q blank at 6:29 AM on November 25, 2020 [26 favorites]
To clarify: Don't mean to impugn the entire party. Those in the GOP who stuck to their guns and did what was right instead of bending to 45's will? Lots of respect. If they face negative repercussions for their actions from their own party, it's just another sign that the org is thoroughly rotten and needs to be replaced. The few who did the right thing should be the example we strive toward, not the ones getting death threats. If the state GOP leadership is not telling this to the masses, well, they're even bigger spinless sycophants than I thought.
These are the kinds of actions that will lose an entire generation of voters. I have voted Republican in the past - a prior MI governor was the highest office, I don't recall ever voting R for president - but now, after all this shit? I won't vote R for dogcatcher. It went from "Well if the R candidate espouses values I hold dear better than the other one does, I may vote for him/her" to "R? Fuck 'em, s/he clearly sold his/her soul" over the course of the last few administrations. I don't WANT to be a straight ticket voter. But I cannot honestly ever see myself punching the ticket for a Republican between now and when I'm in the ground. This is "NEVER FORGET" territory for me.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:35 AM on November 25, 2020 [36 favorites]
These are the kinds of actions that will lose an entire generation of voters. I have voted Republican in the past - a prior MI governor was the highest office, I don't recall ever voting R for president - but now, after all this shit? I won't vote R for dogcatcher. It went from "Well if the R candidate espouses values I hold dear better than the other one does, I may vote for him/her" to "R? Fuck 'em, s/he clearly sold his/her soul" over the course of the last few administrations. I don't WANT to be a straight ticket voter. But I cannot honestly ever see myself punching the ticket for a Republican between now and when I'm in the ground. This is "NEVER FORGET" territory for me.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:35 AM on November 25, 2020 [36 favorites]
“I don’t get it,” the president said, venting confusion and frustration. “All these other Republicans, all over the country, they all win their races. And I’m the only guy that loses?”
A bit more self-awareness and a bit less narcissism, and he could realize what that means.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:56 AM on November 25, 2020 [43 favorites]
A bit more self-awareness and a bit less narcissism, and he could realize what that means.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:56 AM on November 25, 2020 [43 favorites]
This sort of thing should not be remarkable. What's remarkable is that we've even heard of him. It's a terrible sign that we have.
Republican states are going to start stacking their local canvassing boards with cultists, and there's not much that can be done about it, as far as I can tell.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:00 AM on November 25, 2020 [19 favorites]
Republican states are going to start stacking their local canvassing boards with cultists, and there's not much that can be done about it, as far as I can tell.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:00 AM on November 25, 2020 [19 favorites]
if the reporting is accurate.
In this and every other such case, the far-right are going to try to dispute the accuracy of the reporting anyway; let's not do it for them.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 7:03 AM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
In this and every other such case, the far-right are going to try to dispute the accuracy of the reporting anyway; let's not do it for them.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 7:03 AM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
This was a good piece, and I found the author's (Tim Alberta, who I believe is a Michigan native) Twitter account a useful source during this whole thing.
But this story just makes it clear how depressing and unnerving it is that the results of the election came down to ONE Republican willing to just do their job plus some more-or-less accidental quirks of Michigan law and constitution plus a Dem executive branch. (As in, in other states even a Dem governor wouldn't have been able to override the canvassing board and/or the legislature had that one Republican been willing to throw out the canvass.)
Those in the GOP who stuck to their guns and did what was right instead of bending to 45's will? Lots of respect.
Yeah, not so much here, considering that an awful lot of the supposed GOP who didn't bend the knee are 1) retiring (from public office, at least) or 2) have openly refused to consider themselves Republicans anymore. Like, at this point, there's maybe two? This Van Langefelde guy and the Georgia SoS, Raffensperger.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:08 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
But this story just makes it clear how depressing and unnerving it is that the results of the election came down to ONE Republican willing to just do their job plus some more-or-less accidental quirks of Michigan law and constitution plus a Dem executive branch. (As in, in other states even a Dem governor wouldn't have been able to override the canvassing board and/or the legislature had that one Republican been willing to throw out the canvass.)
Those in the GOP who stuck to their guns and did what was right instead of bending to 45's will? Lots of respect.
Yeah, not so much here, considering that an awful lot of the supposed GOP who didn't bend the knee are 1) retiring (from public office, at least) or 2) have openly refused to consider themselves Republicans anymore. Like, at this point, there's maybe two? This Van Langefelde guy and the Georgia SoS, Raffensperger.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:08 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
Don't mean to impugn the entire party. Those in the GOP who stuck to their guns and did what was right instead of bending to 45's will? Lots of respect. If they face negative repercussions for their actions from their own party, it's just another sign that the org is thoroughly rotten and needs to be replaced. The few who did the right thing should be the example we strive toward, not the ones getting death threats
What became clear during this whole debacle is how few state and local GOP officials actually got on board with this plan. All across the country, they processed and certified election results totally normally and made strong push-backs against accusations of fraud (since, of course, they were the ones managing the elections, so fraud would mean that they had failed). And never mind the judiciary, which laughed those cases out of court.
Trump seemingly has a lock-hold on the GOP senate and house members (due to threats of creating primary challengers, I presume), but this showed clearly that his power extended much less far than he had thought.
This is "NEVER FORGET" territory for me.
Definitely. For me the silence of the top GOP through all this and tacit support of Trump's attempts was truly shameful and a total dereliction of duty.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 AM on November 25, 2020 [36 favorites]
What became clear during this whole debacle is how few state and local GOP officials actually got on board with this plan. All across the country, they processed and certified election results totally normally and made strong push-backs against accusations of fraud (since, of course, they were the ones managing the elections, so fraud would mean that they had failed). And never mind the judiciary, which laughed those cases out of court.
Trump seemingly has a lock-hold on the GOP senate and house members (due to threats of creating primary challengers, I presume), but this showed clearly that his power extended much less far than he had thought.
This is "NEVER FORGET" territory for me.
Definitely. For me the silence of the top GOP through all this and tacit support of Trump's attempts was truly shameful and a total dereliction of duty.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 AM on November 25, 2020 [36 favorites]
The headline and framing do some disservice to the article, which is about MUCH more than just that one obscure lawyer. I wish it hadn't been framed that way.
posted by MiraK at 7:12 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 7:12 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
And, come to think of it, it's more likely that Raffensperger isn't sticking to his guns out of any sense of honor or responsibility, he's just mad that his authority and expertise were questioned, which is a thing that should never happen in his mind because he's a middle-aged white male.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:25 AM on November 25, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 7:25 AM on November 25, 2020 [15 favorites]
the article, which is about MUCH more than just that one obscure lawyer
Yes, this is a really good article.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:27 AM on November 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes, this is a really good article.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:27 AM on November 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
With Raffensperger now complaining he's been "thrown under the bus," you have to wonder what planet he's been living on.
It should be clear to anyone who's been awake for more than a week the past four years that Trump will throw literally anyone under the bus if it benefits him, and then claim to have never known them as well.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:37 AM on November 25, 2020 [17 favorites]
It should be clear to anyone who's been awake for more than a week the past four years that Trump will throw literally anyone under the bus if it benefits him, and then claim to have never known them as well.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:37 AM on November 25, 2020 [17 favorites]
And, come to think of it, it's more likely that Raffensperger isn't sticking to his guns out of any sense of honor or responsibility, he's just mad that his authority and expertise were questioned, which is a thing that should never happen in his mind because he's a middle-aged white male.
I mean, he and Kemp both won statewide elections in Georgia; if those other idiots couldn’t, that’s really on them.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:44 AM on November 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
I mean, he and Kemp both won statewide elections in Georgia; if those other idiots couldn’t, that’s really on them.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:44 AM on November 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
This for me was the clincher, always where Trump is involved there must be a Loser, a person cut down, a career set back, a score settled - and if it's a woman who's called his bluff, she must be destroyed:
It drew special attention from the highest levels of the party, and for the president, it had the potential to settle an important score with his adversary, Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 7:53 AM on November 25, 2020 [18 favorites]
It drew special attention from the highest levels of the party, and for the president, it had the potential to settle an important score with his adversary, Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 7:53 AM on November 25, 2020 [18 favorites]
The focus should be on preventing the GOP from trying a non-clownshow version of this strategy in 2024. Though I imagine that becomes easier should Dems take the Senate -- obviously shame alone won't do it, and we no longer have the media environment to dole out the appropriate portions.
And I'm envious of countries that have a break between elections where you can stop thinking about elections.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:10 AM on November 25, 2020 [11 favorites]
And I'm envious of countries that have a break between elections where you can stop thinking about elections.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:10 AM on November 25, 2020 [11 favorites]
I listened to the first four hours of this hearing (I was in line for public comment, but ended up submitting a written comment instead). It might be worth noting that this was a roll-call vote: Shinkle chose to abstain only after he knew how the other board members were voting.
The pre-meeting packet is available here. The statement from the Republican challenger beginning on p. 30 is particularly remarkable for its combination of self-entitlement and racism.
posted by yarntheory at 8:46 AM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
The pre-meeting packet is available here. The statement from the Republican challenger beginning on p. 30 is particularly remarkable for its combination of self-entitlement and racism.
posted by yarntheory at 8:46 AM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
It actually occurred to me to send van Langevelde a thank-you card; then it occurred to me that this election has driven me mad.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:04 AM on November 25, 2020 [30 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 9:04 AM on November 25, 2020 [30 favorites]
It should be clear to anyone who's been awake for more than a week the past four years that Trump will throw literally anyone under the bus if it benefits him
Watching the Trump cult turn on former supporters brings up a terrible mix of feelings for me: vicious schadenfreude, because those fuckers deserve it, and dread, because it means party leadership is being purged of people with even the most minimal of principles.
One thing we've learned over the past several years is just how much the normal functioning of our government relies on our politicians having principles and following norms (like certifying votes unless there is actual evidence of fraud). What happens when no Republicans with principles are left standing?
You would think that after a while, very few Republicans would want to support Trump anymore. The monster that they created is clearly a danger to them, too. But instead it seems like a lot of them think it just won't happen to them as long as they go along.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:17 AM on November 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
Watching the Trump cult turn on former supporters brings up a terrible mix of feelings for me: vicious schadenfreude, because those fuckers deserve it, and dread, because it means party leadership is being purged of people with even the most minimal of principles.
One thing we've learned over the past several years is just how much the normal functioning of our government relies on our politicians having principles and following norms (like certifying votes unless there is actual evidence of fraud). What happens when no Republicans with principles are left standing?
You would think that after a while, very few Republicans would want to support Trump anymore. The monster that they created is clearly a danger to them, too. But instead it seems like a lot of them think it just won't happen to them as long as they go along.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:17 AM on November 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
yarntheory: is this the video (or basically identical to the video) of the hearing you attended? And would you say there are any particular moments that are especially worth watching?
posted by brainwane at 9:27 AM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by brainwane at 9:27 AM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
The monster that they created is clearly a danger to them, too. But instead it seems like a lot of them think it just won't happen to them as long as they go along.
This is standard despot/junta politics, though. Every superior who finds themselves facing a firing squad is a chance for a promotion.
posted by mhoye at 9:28 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
This is standard despot/junta politics, though. Every superior who finds themselves facing a firing squad is a chance for a promotion.
posted by mhoye at 9:28 AM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
“The people outside that room were doing exactly what the law says you would eject people for doing—they were disrupting the election,” Thomas said. “Everyone else in the room—the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the ACLU, the nonpartisans—they all still had a full complement of challengers in the room. And the Republicans, by the way, had far more challengers in the room than they were entitled to.”
It's weird. No other political party would be able to get away with breaking the law like this. Why do Republicans keep getting special treatment?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:42 AM on November 25, 2020 [27 favorites]
It's weird. No other political party would be able to get away with breaking the law like this. Why do Republicans keep getting special treatment?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:42 AM on November 25, 2020 [27 favorites]
Norman Shinkle, abstaining on the final vote—a cowardly abdication of duty
I would suggest that Norman Shinkle was emotionally conditioned to please the composite bully who has been threatening him since grade school (vulnerable to dictators).
posted by Brian B. at 9:48 AM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I would suggest that Norman Shinkle was emotionally conditioned to please the composite bully who has been threatening him since grade school (vulnerable to dictators).
posted by Brian B. at 9:48 AM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Why do Republicans keep getting special treatment?
Because they’re armed to the teeth.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:54 AM on November 25, 2020 [8 favorites]
Because they’re armed to the teeth.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:54 AM on November 25, 2020 [8 favorites]
It is the smallest of consolations for living in a conservative-dominated area (outside of Grand Rapids), but: we are Justin Amash country.
posted by LionIndex at 10:52 AM on November 25, 2020
posted by LionIndex at 10:52 AM on November 25, 2020
I'm with Lindsay Beyerstein on this. This guy is no hero.
posted by mikeand1 at 10:52 AM on November 25, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by mikeand1 at 10:52 AM on November 25, 2020 [8 favorites]
At a low point in his party’s existence, with much of the GOP’s leadership class pre-writing their own political epitaphs by empowering Trump to lay waste to the country’s foundational democratic normsStopped reading at this point, when the article veered into liberal stroke fantasy. What is this mysterious force that will strike down Trump's enablers? Seems like if it existed, it would have manifested during the recent election...
posted by Sauce Trough at 11:04 AM on November 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
COVID is gonna be it if these imbeciles don't act right. Mind you, Congress members and executive branch types and their family will probably be fine, but the local politicians are playing with fire.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:10 AM on November 25, 2020
posted by Countess Elena at 11:10 AM on November 25, 2020
And, come to think of it, it's more likely that Raffensperger isn't sticking to his guns out of any sense of honor or responsibility, he's just mad that his authority and expertise were questioned, which is a thing that should never happen in his mind because he's a middle-aged white male.
People who are elected to office also tend to believe in the office itself and their exclusive right to exercise its authority.
posted by atoxyl at 11:46 AM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
People who are elected to office also tend to believe in the office itself and their exclusive right to exercise its authority.
posted by atoxyl at 11:46 AM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
And, come to think of it, it's more likely that Raffensperger isn't sticking to his guns out of any sense of honor or responsibility, he's just mad that his authority and expertise were questioned, which is a thing that should never happen in his mind because he's a middle-aged white male.
Setting aside the points of white male privilege--I wholly agree there--this is basically the system as defended in the Federalist papers. The whole idea was that all these (white, male) officials and politicians would keep each other in check by jealously guarding their own power. That premise falls apart when most of the system rolls over for a couple of bullies inside their party like Trump and McConnell instead of regarding them as threats to their own power and future political prospects.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:01 PM on November 25, 2020 [10 favorites]
Setting aside the points of white male privilege--I wholly agree there--this is basically the system as defended in the Federalist papers. The whole idea was that all these (white, male) officials and politicians would keep each other in check by jealously guarding their own power. That premise falls apart when most of the system rolls over for a couple of bullies inside their party like Trump and McConnell instead of regarding them as threats to their own power and future political prospects.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:01 PM on November 25, 2020 [10 favorites]
It's weird. No other political party would be able to get away with breaking the law like this. Why do Republicans keep getting special treatment?
Democrats.
posted by mhoye at 12:17 PM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
Democrats.
posted by mhoye at 12:17 PM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
Why do Republicans keep getting special treatment?
It's a good question. Why do people keep giving them the benefit of the doubt? Why do we assume good faith? Why do we not treat them first as untrustworthy cheats? Why are so many conservatives black holes for emotional and real labour?
You can't unify with someone who does care for unity. You can't trust someone who will never trust anyone outside of their bubble.
There comes a time when it's less on the system to show that it's fair, and more on the people and organizations that want to govern to show that they're worthy of trust and good faith. They should not be given respect by default, they should be required to earn it, the slow way.
posted by bonehead at 12:51 PM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's a good question. Why do people keep giving them the benefit of the doubt? Why do we assume good faith? Why do we not treat them first as untrustworthy cheats? Why are so many conservatives black holes for emotional and real labour?
You can't unify with someone who does care for unity. You can't trust someone who will never trust anyone outside of their bubble.
There comes a time when it's less on the system to show that it's fair, and more on the people and organizations that want to govern to show that they're worthy of trust and good faith. They should not be given respect by default, they should be required to earn it, the slow way.
posted by bonehead at 12:51 PM on November 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
Why do Republicans keep getting special treatment?
Because usually no effectively challenges them. The Republicans are very good demanding things by fair and then pushing that to the absolute limit. Other political parties should learn how to do that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:58 PM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
Because usually no effectively challenges them. The Republicans are very good demanding things by fair and then pushing that to the absolute limit. Other political parties should learn how to do that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:58 PM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
The wheels of cosmic justice turn slowly
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:23 PM on November 25, 2020
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:23 PM on November 25, 2020
I've gotta give credit to the Republicans willing to stand up to Trump. It may seem obvious to us that this should be done, but from the other side of the fence it is an out-tribe action. There's essentially zero personal upside for them to do it, other than principle.
I've always wondered if I would be able to do something like that, put principle above personal well-being. Easy to tell people to do it, easy to talk about. (Actually now thinking about it, there have been plenty of times when personal gain was the easier route and I took it.)
posted by storybored at 2:39 PM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
I've always wondered if I would be able to do something like that, put principle above personal well-being. Easy to tell people to do it, easy to talk about. (Actually now thinking about it, there have been plenty of times when personal gain was the easier route and I took it.)
posted by storybored at 2:39 PM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
There's essentially zero personal upside for them to do it, other than principle.
“Other than principle”, what? That’s what principles are. That’s what having principles means, doing the right thing and not the easy, fun, self-serving or profitable thing.
posted by mhoye at 3:38 PM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
“Other than principle”, what? That’s what principles are. That’s what having principles means, doing the right thing and not the easy, fun, self-serving or profitable thing.
posted by mhoye at 3:38 PM on November 25, 2020 [6 favorites]
Brainwane, maybe the turning moment of this hearing was when Van Langevelde cross-examined Charlie Spies, a representative for the (losing, Republican) John James for Senate campaign. Spies' statement starts at 1:36, and Van Langevelde's questions start at 1:43. That's the moment when I started messaging friends that perhaps Van Langevelde was lawful neutral.
That conversation is followed (around 1:51) by a statement from the Detroit city clerk, Janice Winfrey. The other Republican on the board, Norman Shinkle, insisted on interviewing Winfrey. She called into the meeting while dealing with a family medical emergency. That's a good way to get a sense of the personalities involved.
Shinkle's sympathetic questioning of the Wayne County election official who suggested certifying results from everywhere except the city of Detroit was also interesting from the perspective of sheer drama, but I'm not sure where in the order it falls.
posted by yarntheory at 5:15 PM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
That conversation is followed (around 1:51) by a statement from the Detroit city clerk, Janice Winfrey. The other Republican on the board, Norman Shinkle, insisted on interviewing Winfrey. She called into the meeting while dealing with a family medical emergency. That's a good way to get a sense of the personalities involved.
Shinkle's sympathetic questioning of the Wayne County election official who suggested certifying results from everywhere except the city of Detroit was also interesting from the perspective of sheer drama, but I'm not sure where in the order it falls.
posted by yarntheory at 5:15 PM on November 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is the deep state. This is about real public service. Great article.
posted by Oyéah at 6:46 PM on November 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 6:46 PM on November 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
There's essentially zero personal upside for them to do it, other than principle.
Please let's not gloss over the fact that it's THEIR JOB - to follow the constitution and the law, not please Trump. This is the very thing they were elected to do, the thing they're paid to do, the thing they literally took an oath to do. You might as well say there's zero upside for Amazon to mail me the book I bought, other than principle.
posted by MiraK at 7:56 PM on November 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
Please let's not gloss over the fact that it's THEIR JOB - to follow the constitution and the law, not please Trump. This is the very thing they were elected to do, the thing they're paid to do, the thing they literally took an oath to do. You might as well say there's zero upside for Amazon to mail me the book I bought, other than principle.
posted by MiraK at 7:56 PM on November 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
Please let's not gloss over the fact that it's THEIR JOB - to follow the constitution and the law, not please Trump.
That's part of what I'm implying. That in the tribe of the hardline GOP, electoral law is not a consideration. For someone to break with that is to break with the tribe.
It would be as grievous a transgression as a Democrat who ignores electoral law.
To clarify I am talking about the social psychology at work, not the ethics.
posted by storybored at 10:26 PM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
That's part of what I'm implying. That in the tribe of the hardline GOP, electoral law is not a consideration. For someone to break with that is to break with the tribe.
It would be as grievous a transgression as a Democrat who ignores electoral law.
To clarify I am talking about the social psychology at work, not the ethics.
posted by storybored at 10:26 PM on November 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
In these weird times, people can be heroes just doing their job.
posted by Namlit at 4:48 AM on November 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Namlit at 4:48 AM on November 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
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posted by jedicus at 5:51 AM on November 25, 2020 [131 favorites]