The Journalist and the Pharma Bro
December 20, 2020 7:58 PM Subscribe
It's a good story, much more about Smythe than about Shkreli, but without casting Smythe as lacking agency or responsibility for where she is at the end.
posted by fatbird at 8:09 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by fatbird at 8:09 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can't get over Dress: The Vampire's Wife
posted by whir at 8:18 PM on December 20, 2020 [44 favorites]
posted by whir at 8:18 PM on December 20, 2020 [44 favorites]
I'm not surprised at the ending. "Best of luck with your future endeavors" indeed. Not sure what else she was expecting from the biggest as***** ever?
posted by gemmy at 8:23 PM on December 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by gemmy at 8:23 PM on December 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
This sounds like hybristophilia, but usually that is for powerful people who seem dangerous and exciting. He just has a rotten little Proud Boy face and has done nothing in his public life that is less than punchable. I don't see what she saw in him that could be fixed.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:30 PM on December 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 8:30 PM on December 20, 2020 [17 favorites]
"least-liked" is one way of putting it.
Like when my students say they are "not the best at writing essays."
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:43 PM on December 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
Like when my students say they are "not the best at writing essays."
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:43 PM on December 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
Coincidentally, I just watched Suicide Squad, and was left wondering just what Harley Quinn saw in the Joker in the first place.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:47 PM on December 20, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:47 PM on December 20, 2020 [18 favorites]
She's wearing some nice fashion. Must be nice, that life. Easy, breezy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:09 PM on December 20, 2020
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:09 PM on December 20, 2020
As Jessica Valenti has commented on Twitter, "I know this is very juicy and whatnot but actually I think it's sad and bordering on exploitative." I am inclined to agree. There's no useful information or analysis here -- this is simply about rubbernecking.
It is so odd to me that this woman had a good life and was still so vulnerable to getting sucked into Martin Shkreli's manipulations. Christie Smythe needs serious counselling, not to be profiled or to have that profile go viral.
posted by orange swan at 9:10 PM on December 20, 2020 [38 favorites]
It is so odd to me that this woman had a good life and was still so vulnerable to getting sucked into Martin Shkreli's manipulations. Christie Smythe needs serious counselling, not to be profiled or to have that profile go viral.
posted by orange swan at 9:10 PM on December 20, 2020 [38 favorites]
She's wearing some nice fashion. Must be nice, that life. Easy, breezy.
You do know that designers loan clothes out to magazines for photoshoots, right?
posted by oneirodynia at 9:24 PM on December 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
You do know that designers loan clothes out to magazines for photoshoots, right?
posted by oneirodynia at 9:24 PM on December 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
I do know that, thanks!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:45 PM on December 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:45 PM on December 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
I didn't and am now reluctant to participate in photo shoots, should I be asked.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:48 PM on December 20, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:48 PM on December 20, 2020 [19 favorites]
It's all in questionable taste, but it illustrates something I've observed a lot in journalists—I'm thinking here of Smythe but also of Clifford, the author of the Elle piece—that journalists tend to have a good sense of questions of truth and falsity, but are very very susceptible to coming to view the world through the lens of their subjects. Why not, since part of the job is seeing the world through someone else's claims? Political journalists spot and describe every kind of liar, but naturally fall back to asserting our political arrangements are natural, and are hopeless in the face of political actors whose lying is credibly-essentially part of their being, sports journalists inherently tend to support the greater good of whichever sport they cover, even if they dress it up as concern for the fans, real estate journalists like to look at houses, and it all really does elide naturally into maintaining a relationship of some sort.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:56 PM on December 20, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 9:56 PM on December 20, 2020 [20 favorites]
What interested me was that Smythe was simultaneously self-aware and deluded. Will she ever see that Shkreli is a sociopath or, as with Trump's rabid followers, is this blindness a long-term condition?
posted by carmicha at 10:08 PM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 10:08 PM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
This sounds like hybristophilia ...
Hmmm, I don't see that from the information presented in this story.
What I see and am very depressed by is all the emotional labor carried out by Smythe on behalf of someone with whom she had only a professional relationship. Her fear that Shkreli would kill himself. Her making excuses for his egregious trolling ("He's anxious"). Her arranging for pet care and medications when he was jailed.
I keep thinking of Shkreli's and Smythe's spring 2016 meeting at a wine bar. He was out on bond on the securities fraud charges and he'd been hinting at giving her an exclusive interview, so she felt like she couldn't afford to alienate him.
During this conversation, Smythe told the Elle writer, she and Shkreli had connected over both having had anxiety as teenagers. I ... wonder about this. I would guess that Shkreli confided only as much as necessary to appear like he needed her help. Then he let her talk about herself so he'd had an idea of where she was vulnerable.
I'm not excusing her actions for a minute, though. The Columbia professor gave her good advice about not becoming too close to a manipulative source, but she chose not to heed it.
posted by virago at 10:27 PM on December 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
Hmmm, I don't see that from the information presented in this story.
What I see and am very depressed by is all the emotional labor carried out by Smythe on behalf of someone with whom she had only a professional relationship. Her fear that Shkreli would kill himself. Her making excuses for his egregious trolling ("He's anxious"). Her arranging for pet care and medications when he was jailed.
I keep thinking of Shkreli's and Smythe's spring 2016 meeting at a wine bar. He was out on bond on the securities fraud charges and he'd been hinting at giving her an exclusive interview, so she felt like she couldn't afford to alienate him.
During this conversation, Smythe told the Elle writer, she and Shkreli had connected over both having had anxiety as teenagers. I ... wonder about this. I would guess that Shkreli confided only as much as necessary to appear like he needed her help. Then he let her talk about herself so he'd had an idea of where she was vulnerable.
I'm not excusing her actions for a minute, though. The Columbia professor gave her good advice about not becoming too close to a manipulative source, but she chose not to heed it.
posted by virago at 10:27 PM on December 20, 2020 [29 favorites]
nothing about this seems to me to bear on journalism, big picture. or even that shkreli is some ultra-charming manipulator. just seems this woman fell for a pretty basic trumpian asshole and detonated her life over it. there's no accounting for taste. and she's a grownup; she can tell her story to a magazine if she wants to.
posted by wibari at 10:36 PM on December 20, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by wibari at 10:36 PM on December 20, 2020 [18 favorites]
I didn't and am now reluctant to participate in photo shoots, should I be asked.
Go to the shoot, take the clothes, and run.
posted by atoxyl at 10:42 PM on December 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Go to the shoot, take the clothes, and run.
posted by atoxyl at 10:42 PM on December 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
You don’t get to keep the clothes unfortunately.
posted by sideshow at 10:46 PM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by sideshow at 10:46 PM on December 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
> You don’t get to keep the clothes unfortunately.
are you disparaging atoxyl's speed off the mark and ability to hurdle fences while wearing a designer dress?
posted by are-coral-made at 10:53 PM on December 20, 2020 [81 favorites]
are you disparaging atoxyl's speed off the mark and ability to hurdle fences while wearing a designer dress?
posted by are-coral-made at 10:53 PM on December 20, 2020 [81 favorites]
~Maybelline theme~
*maybe it's blood money*
posted by bartleby at 11:12 PM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
*maybe it's blood money*
posted by bartleby at 11:12 PM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
You don’t get to keep the clothes unfortunately.
I feel like you are not taking my plan literally enough.
posted by atoxyl at 11:32 PM on December 20, 2020 [67 favorites]
I feel like you are not taking my plan literally enough.
posted by atoxyl at 11:32 PM on December 20, 2020 [67 favorites]
Even though he's in jail, Shkreli is still worth many many millions of dollars, and one day fairly soon he'll be released. I wonder if he were dirt poor would she be so smitten?
posted by zardoz at 11:54 PM on December 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 11:54 PM on December 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
Dress: The Vampire's Wife
Baggage: model's own
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:55 PM on December 20, 2020 [23 favorites]
Baggage: model's own
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:55 PM on December 20, 2020 [23 favorites]
and she's a grownup;
For some definition of 'grownup'.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:57 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
For some definition of 'grownup'.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:57 PM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
During this conversation, Smythe told the Elle writer, she and Shkreli had connected over both having had anxiety as teenagers.
I'll hide behind a smile
and understanding eyes
and I'll tell you things that you already know
so you can say
I really identify with you, so much
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:00 AM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
I'll hide behind a smile
and understanding eyes
and I'll tell you things that you already know
so you can say
I really identify with you, so much
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:00 AM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
I have to temper my natural inclination to feel sympathy for Smythe. From what I understand, her book still needs a buyer and as a journalist she must be well aware that this type of publicity can help her close a deal.
posted by mundo at 12:15 AM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by mundo at 12:15 AM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; remarks about Smythe's looks are unnecessary and unwelcome.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:31 AM on December 21, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:31 AM on December 21, 2020 [18 favorites]
This did not make the article.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:43 AM on December 21, 2020 [58 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:43 AM on December 21, 2020 [58 favorites]
Even though he's in jail, Shkreli is still worth many many millions of dollars, and one day fairly soon he'll be released. I wonder if he were dirt poor would she be so smitten?
Maybe not even on a point-for-point "I would like to date a rich guy" level but just on a "being rich is one of the things that makes him so faaaaaaaaascinating" level? Like the hero of Fifty Shades of Grey.
I don't know, I see this kind of thing as basically self-destructive - I've known people who were driven to attach themselves to obviously cruel, unreliable, widely-disliked users out of the desire to be "the one" who could succeed with this difficult person and also out of a hidden self-hatred, a recognition that this person would hurt them. Also, maybe, out of the inability not to be alone - if you're used to being a lonely and unhappy person, it can feel natural to attach yourself to a widely disliked person since it's just another way of guaranteeing that you'll continue to be lonely and unhappy.
posted by Frowner at 2:52 AM on December 21, 2020 [20 favorites]
Maybe not even on a point-for-point "I would like to date a rich guy" level but just on a "being rich is one of the things that makes him so faaaaaaaaascinating" level? Like the hero of Fifty Shades of Grey.
I don't know, I see this kind of thing as basically self-destructive - I've known people who were driven to attach themselves to obviously cruel, unreliable, widely-disliked users out of the desire to be "the one" who could succeed with this difficult person and also out of a hidden self-hatred, a recognition that this person would hurt them. Also, maybe, out of the inability not to be alone - if you're used to being a lonely and unhappy person, it can feel natural to attach yourself to a widely disliked person since it's just another way of guaranteeing that you'll continue to be lonely and unhappy.
posted by Frowner at 2:52 AM on December 21, 2020 [20 favorites]
I can't get over Dress: The Vampire's Wife
The ELLE fashion and art direction teams can be next level.
Besides the luxe clothing and on-brand name of atelier, I’m awed that they took this Tolstoy-like (or maybe Edith Wharton’s vulgar cousin’s) tale and just freaking went for dressing her like a young fallen woman in some earlier century.
Also, The Vampire’s Wife was founded by Susie Cave (nee Bick), Nick Cave’s It-girl second (?) wife. (Warning, child loss, equally churning love story.)
It also has crazy masks and accessories on its site I just noticed, like wow, matching neck scarfs.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:51 AM on December 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
The ELLE fashion and art direction teams can be next level.
Besides the luxe clothing and on-brand name of atelier, I’m awed that they took this Tolstoy-like (or maybe Edith Wharton’s vulgar cousin’s) tale and just freaking went for dressing her like a young fallen woman in some earlier century.
Also, The Vampire’s Wife was founded by Susie Cave (nee Bick), Nick Cave’s It-girl second (?) wife. (Warning, child loss, equally churning love story.)
It also has crazy masks and accessories on its site I just noticed, like wow, matching neck scarfs.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:51 AM on December 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Maybe it was just me, but after the headline I was assuming that this would be a story about an investigative journalist going all out Patty Hearst with this excuse for a human being.
But a Bloomberg journo married to an investment manager? She switched gears, not sides.
posted by pseudocode at 3:58 AM on December 21, 2020 [47 favorites]
But a Bloomberg journo married to an investment manager? She switched gears, not sides.
posted by pseudocode at 3:58 AM on December 21, 2020 [47 favorites]
Me: “romance is dea-“
Martin Shkreli: “ Mr. Shkreli wishes Ms. Smythe the best of luck in her future endeavors.”
Me: “I stand corrected.”
posted by kevinbelt at 4:06 AM on December 21, 2020 [27 favorites]
Martin Shkreli: “ Mr. Shkreli wishes Ms. Smythe the best of luck in her future endeavors.”
Me: “I stand corrected.”
posted by kevinbelt at 4:06 AM on December 21, 2020 [27 favorites]
“ Smythe told the Elle writer, she and Shkreli had connected over both having had anxiety as teenagers”
My brother dated a girl once who didn’t seem to make him happy, so I asked what he saw in her, and he answered something like this. I’m like “dude, you do realize that literally everyone has anxiety as a teenager, right?” Teenage anxiety is one step above breathing. You might as well say they bonded over both being mammals.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:16 AM on December 21, 2020 [42 favorites]
My brother dated a girl once who didn’t seem to make him happy, so I asked what he saw in her, and he answered something like this. I’m like “dude, you do realize that literally everyone has anxiety as a teenager, right?” Teenage anxiety is one step above breathing. You might as well say they bonded over both being mammals.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:16 AM on December 21, 2020 [42 favorites]
You joke, but the mammal thing works.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:32 AM on December 21, 2020 [24 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:32 AM on December 21, 2020 [24 favorites]
Let's do like they do on the Discovery Channel!
posted by flabdablet at 5:47 AM on December 21, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 5:47 AM on December 21, 2020 [27 favorites]
Only reading the initial question in the OP and before reading this article: it's because they're both white and he's a super-rich manipulator.
After reading the article: it's because they're both white and he's a super-rich manipulator but at least two prisoners were able to get out early from unfair sentences.
posted by Ouverture at 5:49 AM on December 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
After reading the article: it's because they're both white and he's a super-rich manipulator but at least two prisoners were able to get out early from unfair sentences.
posted by Ouverture at 5:49 AM on December 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
She fell in love with a defendant whose case she not only covered, but broke the news of his arrest.
Woof, what a klunker of a sentence.
posted by nicwolff at 6:11 AM on December 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
Woof, what a klunker of a sentence.
posted by nicwolff at 6:11 AM on December 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
"He's just using you," Smythe’s husband had told her early on, after a late-night call with Shkreli. “For what?” she had replied.
That was really her answer? I mean, the rest of the article supports the husband. Smythe becomes Shkreli's journalistic advocate, then general fan. It looks pretty clear.
posted by doctornemo at 6:21 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
That was really her answer? I mean, the rest of the article supports the husband. Smythe becomes Shkreli's journalistic advocate, then general fan. It looks pretty clear.
posted by doctornemo at 6:21 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
That's... quite a tweet, computech_apolloniajames .
posted by doctornemo at 6:29 AM on December 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 6:29 AM on December 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
You might as well say they bonded over both being mammals.
Shkreli is not a mammal.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:34 AM on December 21, 2020 [20 favorites]
Shkreli is not a mammal.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:34 AM on December 21, 2020 [20 favorites]
Back to back in my feed:
-It's hard to imagine a smart person following for such a well-documented piece of shit.
-Actress Margaret Qualley takes part in a major PDA session with Shia Labeouf.
This is an old song, unfortunately.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 AM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
-It's hard to imagine a smart person following for such a well-documented piece of shit.
-Actress Margaret Qualley takes part in a major PDA session with Shia Labeouf.
This is an old song, unfortunately.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 AM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
was left wondering just what Harley Quinn saw in the Joker in the first place.
I mean at least the Joker dresses fun and has a lot of hobbies. Shkreli barely even has a backstory.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:46 AM on December 21, 2020 [26 favorites]
I mean at least the Joker dresses fun and has a lot of hobbies. Shkreli barely even has a backstory.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:46 AM on December 21, 2020 [26 favorites]
Meanwhile, serial killers on death row have infatuated penpals queueing up to marry them. Same deal.
posted by acb at 6:50 AM on December 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by acb at 6:50 AM on December 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
I have no belief that he is the saintly spouse that was pushed to his limit that the article depicts, but I sure would like to hear this story from Smythe's ex-husband's perspective.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:51 AM on December 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:51 AM on December 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
I once dated a pathological liar, and as we were breaking up and having break-up type fights, he'd say things like, "I never said I loved you," and I'd look back and realize it was true. That while I'd thought I heard him say it, he never really did. Like, in my insecurity I'd ask him, "Do you love me?" and he'd say, "I'm here, aren't I?" and even more weaselly things like that that I can't remember.
(In my defense: though it went on much longer than it should have, my relationship with this person actually only lasted about six weeks, maybe eight. But it did blow up a good relationship I'd been in for almost two years in the process. And I learned my lesson well. Knowing how to spot certain red flags has served me well at various points in the subsequent 30 years.)
Anyway, it makes me wonder how much her belief that he said he loved her, that they shared an understanding that they were together, was in her head—that that was part of his manipulation of her. My own pathological liar/manipulator often had several women on the line, all of them doing him favors like buying him food and cigarettes, which he somehow never exactly asked for but which he always accepted. He could allow you to believe you were dating him without ever saying in so many words that he was dating you. It was masterful. At one point, he even had his therapist giving him gas money—forcing it on him over his own protests.
posted by Orlop at 7:02 AM on December 21, 2020 [32 favorites]
(In my defense: though it went on much longer than it should have, my relationship with this person actually only lasted about six weeks, maybe eight. But it did blow up a good relationship I'd been in for almost two years in the process. And I learned my lesson well. Knowing how to spot certain red flags has served me well at various points in the subsequent 30 years.)
Anyway, it makes me wonder how much her belief that he said he loved her, that they shared an understanding that they were together, was in her head—that that was part of his manipulation of her. My own pathological liar/manipulator often had several women on the line, all of them doing him favors like buying him food and cigarettes, which he somehow never exactly asked for but which he always accepted. He could allow you to believe you were dating him without ever saying in so many words that he was dating you. It was masterful. At one point, he even had his therapist giving him gas money—forcing it on him over his own protests.
posted by Orlop at 7:02 AM on December 21, 2020 [32 favorites]
I first saw this story through twitter. At the end of reading, I had this mental-somatic reflex of wanting to hit the back button and read the metafilter comments and see what people thought. And lo and behold, a few hours later brundlefly posted it here. And your comments have been great, folks: some funny, some personal, some offering insights and angles that wouldn't have occurred to me.
I have two thoughts: one is that Richard III's wooing of Lady Anne beside the corpse of her husband, whom he killed, is going to be hard to top, but "getting the reporter who broke the news of his arrest to fall in love with him and then ghosting her from prison" is really something.
And I also think: this guy is one of the most reviled human beings on the planet. He's not a master manipulator! He's just a master at manipulating this one particular unfortunate woman (and, I gather, a small facebook troll army.) Any small-town elementary school teacher or municipal clerk who has a full church at her or his funeral is a better "manipulator" of human goodwill than this guy.
posted by sy at 7:10 AM on December 21, 2020 [18 favorites]
I have two thoughts: one is that Richard III's wooing of Lady Anne beside the corpse of her husband, whom he killed, is going to be hard to top, but "getting the reporter who broke the news of his arrest to fall in love with him and then ghosting her from prison" is really something.
And I also think: this guy is one of the most reviled human beings on the planet. He's not a master manipulator! He's just a master at manipulating this one particular unfortunate woman (and, I gather, a small facebook troll army.) Any small-town elementary school teacher or municipal clerk who has a full church at her or his funeral is a better "manipulator" of human goodwill than this guy.
posted by sy at 7:10 AM on December 21, 2020 [18 favorites]
“You could see his earnestness,” Smythe says. “It just didn’t match this idea of a fraudster.”
I'm stunned at how stupid this is. On the other hand, why should we expect humans to not be vulnerable to predators who specialize in finding human weak spots?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:25 AM on December 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
I'm stunned at how stupid this is. On the other hand, why should we expect humans to not be vulnerable to predators who specialize in finding human weak spots?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:25 AM on December 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Boy everyone loves this story. It was all the talk of Twitter and my social crowd. Folks love it here too.
What I think is interesting is no one feels sympathy for Smythe. If we heard about this story in the third person, if she weren't the narrator, I think most people would leap to the conclusion that she's the victim of a conman. I lept to that conclusion reading her own account, too. But because she's such a good writer and so self-aware of how kooky what she's done is, she seems to fully be responsible for it. She made a choice and now we all stand agog at how awful her choice was.
But that's not how cons work. The mark doesn't make a rational choice. They fall under the spell of the conman, then become victim to the con. Usually the mark is in on the swindle too; that's why it's called a "confidence" game. They just think they're swindling someone else, not being swindled themselves. And so they are conned.
Maybe this con analogy doesn't quite work since the stakes here are love and life, not swindling money. But I still can't help feel fundamentally the author is a victim of a persuasive sociopath, no matter how well she writes about how it happened to her.
posted by Nelson at 7:27 AM on December 21, 2020 [25 favorites]
What I think is interesting is no one feels sympathy for Smythe. If we heard about this story in the third person, if she weren't the narrator, I think most people would leap to the conclusion that she's the victim of a conman. I lept to that conclusion reading her own account, too. But because she's such a good writer and so self-aware of how kooky what she's done is, she seems to fully be responsible for it. She made a choice and now we all stand agog at how awful her choice was.
But that's not how cons work. The mark doesn't make a rational choice. They fall under the spell of the conman, then become victim to the con. Usually the mark is in on the swindle too; that's why it's called a "confidence" game. They just think they're swindling someone else, not being swindled themselves. And so they are conned.
Maybe this con analogy doesn't quite work since the stakes here are love and life, not swindling money. But I still can't help feel fundamentally the author is a victim of a persuasive sociopath, no matter how well she writes about how it happened to her.
posted by Nelson at 7:27 AM on December 21, 2020 [25 favorites]
Personally - unless I desperately needed the money, like "otherwise I'll starve to death" - at the very, very, very least I wouldn't sit down for a lengthy interview and profile about my experiences in this matter if I had gone through them, *especially* if I were a journalist and presumably would have some idea of how the story would be received.
> “You could see his earnestness,” Smythe says. “It just didn’t match this idea of a fraudster.”
I'm dumb as a box of rocks and yet sometimes I read something and feel like the smartest person in the world.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:39 AM on December 21, 2020 [24 favorites]
> “You could see his earnestness,” Smythe says. “It just didn’t match this idea of a fraudster.”
I'm dumb as a box of rocks and yet sometimes I read something and feel like the smartest person in the world.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:39 AM on December 21, 2020 [24 favorites]
This story only strikes people as strange because people think of Shkreli as an evil nerd because of his looks and depiction as a comic book villain (raising drug prices! buying a Wu Tang master and refusing to release it!). He was actually an able con artist and dark triad all the way through and sad to say people line up around the block to fall in love with that, and always have.
posted by MattD at 7:42 AM on December 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by MattD at 7:42 AM on December 21, 2020 [8 favorites]
But because she's such a good writer and so self-aware of how kooky what she's done is, she seems to fully be responsible for it.
This sounds like you think that Smythe wrote the piece. The author is Stephanie Clifford.
One point not mentioned here that I think should be amplified: early on in Smythe's attempts to get Shkreli to treat her as a confidant, she figured out what was going on:
I actually am quite sympathetic to her. Her arc is more like an addict's whose self-control is never in doubt to themselves. But I hate stories about how the victims of people like Shkrelli are hapless marks, which is why I thought this story was so good: Smythe's self-awareness, and ultimately, her manipulativeness towards Clifford make it a tragedy. I think Clifford's coda, about how Smythe's openness for the story was a last way to reach Shkreli, is horrifying and the most telling detail of all.
For some, the article is a car accident for gawkers, but there's more to it than that.
posted by fatbird at 7:47 AM on December 21, 2020 [25 favorites]
This sounds like you think that Smythe wrote the piece. The author is Stephanie Clifford.
One point not mentioned here that I think should be amplified: early on in Smythe's attempts to get Shkreli to treat her as a confidant, she figured out what was going on:
That spring, she wrote about Shkreli for a class, “describing how manipulative he was to reporters,” says her professor, Michael Shapiro. She wrote “quite candidly about how he had so successfully drawn her in.”.... “Maybe I was being charmed by a master manipulator,” Smythe tells me. But she felt she could maintain control.She didn't just understand that dynamic, she literally wrote a paper on it for school.
I actually am quite sympathetic to her. Her arc is more like an addict's whose self-control is never in doubt to themselves. But I hate stories about how the victims of people like Shkrelli are hapless marks, which is why I thought this story was so good: Smythe's self-awareness, and ultimately, her manipulativeness towards Clifford make it a tragedy. I think Clifford's coda, about how Smythe's openness for the story was a last way to reach Shkreli, is horrifying and the most telling detail of all.
For some, the article is a car accident for gawkers, but there's more to it than that.
posted by fatbird at 7:47 AM on December 21, 2020 [25 favorites]
imo, Smythe is pushing for a book deal.
posted by ShawnStruck at 7:54 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by ShawnStruck at 7:54 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
He was actually an able con artist and dark triad all the way through and sad to say people line up around the block to fall in love with that, and always have
Yeah, this is the story of Smythe, but it exists in the world where the Princeton University student corporate finance club invited Shkreli as a speaker in April 2017, after his arrest but before the verdict of his trial. It's more than there being a sucker born every minute; the system is built on them kniving each other for the chance.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:55 AM on December 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Yeah, this is the story of Smythe, but it exists in the world where the Princeton University student corporate finance club invited Shkreli as a speaker in April 2017, after his arrest but before the verdict of his trial. It's more than there being a sucker born every minute; the system is built on them kniving each other for the chance.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:55 AM on December 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
This sounds like you think that Smythe wrote the piece. The author is Stephanie Clifford.
You are 100% right and I'm embarrassed. Now I need to re-read the article and figure out how I got the wrong idea.
posted by Nelson at 7:57 AM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
You are 100% right and I'm embarrassed. Now I need to re-read the article and figure out how I got the wrong idea.
posted by Nelson at 7:57 AM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter: I am now reluctant to participate in photo shoots, should I be asked.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:02 AM on December 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:02 AM on December 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
imo, Smythe is pushing for a book deal.
I 100% agree with this, but also think this is another point where she got taken for a ride, this time by Stephanie Clifford. Because even though I read and was fascinated by this article, I have also heard more than enough of Smythe's story and doubt a book will contain anything more interesting to me.
(I gawk at a traffic accident but I don't head around the block to gawk again.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:02 AM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
I 100% agree with this, but also think this is another point where she got taken for a ride, this time by Stephanie Clifford. Because even though I read and was fascinated by this article, I have also heard more than enough of Smythe's story and doubt a book will contain anything more interesting to me.
(I gawk at a traffic accident but I don't head around the block to gawk again.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:02 AM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
What I think is interesting is no one feels sympathy for Smythe. If we heard about this story in the third person, if she weren't the narrator, I think most people would leap to the conclusion that she's the victim of a conman.
Not... quite. At least for certain values of "conman" and "victim." Most cons fall apart if you know that the con artist is a con artist. But some cons, of the sort that were seen in House of Games, operate on a higher level, where the mark knows that the con artist is a con artist, and think either that they're in on the con or that they're actually ahead of the con artist. That's how people who think that they're too smart for three-card monte games get taken in them, and how a journalist who literally writes a paper on how he's a master manipulator "felt she could maintain control." Before I got sober, I felt that I was on top of my addiction, which was precisely 180° from the truth.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:07 AM on December 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
Not... quite. At least for certain values of "conman" and "victim." Most cons fall apart if you know that the con artist is a con artist. But some cons, of the sort that were seen in House of Games, operate on a higher level, where the mark knows that the con artist is a con artist, and think either that they're in on the con or that they're actually ahead of the con artist. That's how people who think that they're too smart for three-card monte games get taken in them, and how a journalist who literally writes a paper on how he's a master manipulator "felt she could maintain control." Before I got sober, I felt that I was on top of my addiction, which was precisely 180° from the truth.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:07 AM on December 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
Now I need to re-read the article and figure out how I got the wrong idea.
It's an easy mistake to make because Clifford does such a good job removing herself from the piece. It's a normal trope in profiles for the author to insert themselves as a means of introducting questions and context, and Clifford does almost none of that, which is refreshing.
posted by fatbird at 8:08 AM on December 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
It's an easy mistake to make because Clifford does such a good job removing herself from the piece. It's a normal trope in profiles for the author to insert themselves as a means of introducting questions and context, and Clifford does almost none of that, which is refreshing.
posted by fatbird at 8:08 AM on December 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
I don't think the story of a woman (or man) falling in love with a convict is that unusual, here's an interview with an author who wrote a whole book on it. I see a lot of commonalities between Smyth's story and other women who fell in love with inmates. I think the unusual part is for a woman like Smyth to give such a personal profile, I suppose we expect successful people to have more self-awareness, but inside we're all humans after all.
posted by muddgirl at 8:19 AM on December 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:19 AM on December 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
journalists tend to have a good sense of questions of truth and falsity, but are very very susceptible to coming to view the world through the lens of their subjects
I used to admire the profile writing of a former colleague—I did learn a lot from her, including not to do the following. Everyone she wrote about seemed so human and clever and interesting. Then I met a couple of the people she wrote about and realized that no, they were just garden-variety jerks, maybe with more money and power than the average person, but not actually anyone I would ever want to know. Her profiles, I came to realize, have a formula, in which she cherry-picks things her subjects say and contextualizes them with humanizing narrative, which can be misleading and often makes them seem charismatic and deliberate in ways they truly are not. Sometimes I think she hoodwinks herself; it's an easy trap to fall into, of wanting to believe that there's some next-level 4-D chess or strategy behind the moves of terrible people.
Journalism commentator Jay Rosen called out some of what we're seeing here recently, this notion of politics as a strategic game—it's not, really. Nor is much of public life all that strategic. Giving it that narrative is truly writing fiction. The item above that on his wishlist, "symmetrical accounts of asymmetrical realities seen as malpractice," as well as the item below it, "Bad actors with a history of misinforming the public seen as unsuitable sources and unwelcome guests," both seem relevant. People have long been fascinated by true crime stories, and this basically is a tale in that genre, but Shkreli doesn't deserve further humanization. Smythe, though, I think does deserve humanization—perhaps, unfortunately, in some part as a cautionary tale. This is a really interesting meta story in journalism!
All of it's a difficult line to walk. On one hand, this is interesting, and I actually am sympathetic to Smythe. I'm a human, and sure, I've been fascinated by unsuitable people from time to time, been through the denouement of a marriage, and been radicalized by former sources (though, wow, in so much the diametrically opposite direction). This can actually be a huge danger to storytellers, that we might be so good at writing the story, we manage to write both characters' parts ourselves. I've certainly done it! (And I'm having déjà vu about it right now.) It seems like Smythe wrote a part for Shkreli that he not only failed to live up to, but also perhaps actively encouraged her to believe. So I can imagine all too well how she fell into that abyss.
On the other hand, this is giving more air to a raging inferno of self-immolation. I hope Smythe emerges from this, learns from it, and goes on to do something more fulfilling with the rest of her life!
posted by limeonaire at 8:26 AM on December 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
I used to admire the profile writing of a former colleague—I did learn a lot from her, including not to do the following. Everyone she wrote about seemed so human and clever and interesting. Then I met a couple of the people she wrote about and realized that no, they were just garden-variety jerks, maybe with more money and power than the average person, but not actually anyone I would ever want to know. Her profiles, I came to realize, have a formula, in which she cherry-picks things her subjects say and contextualizes them with humanizing narrative, which can be misleading and often makes them seem charismatic and deliberate in ways they truly are not. Sometimes I think she hoodwinks herself; it's an easy trap to fall into, of wanting to believe that there's some next-level 4-D chess or strategy behind the moves of terrible people.
Journalism commentator Jay Rosen called out some of what we're seeing here recently, this notion of politics as a strategic game—it's not, really. Nor is much of public life all that strategic. Giving it that narrative is truly writing fiction. The item above that on his wishlist, "symmetrical accounts of asymmetrical realities seen as malpractice," as well as the item below it, "Bad actors with a history of misinforming the public seen as unsuitable sources and unwelcome guests," both seem relevant. People have long been fascinated by true crime stories, and this basically is a tale in that genre, but Shkreli doesn't deserve further humanization. Smythe, though, I think does deserve humanization—perhaps, unfortunately, in some part as a cautionary tale. This is a really interesting meta story in journalism!
All of it's a difficult line to walk. On one hand, this is interesting, and I actually am sympathetic to Smythe. I'm a human, and sure, I've been fascinated by unsuitable people from time to time, been through the denouement of a marriage, and been radicalized by former sources (though, wow, in so much the diametrically opposite direction). This can actually be a huge danger to storytellers, that we might be so good at writing the story, we manage to write both characters' parts ourselves. I've certainly done it! (And I'm having déjà vu about it right now.) It seems like Smythe wrote a part for Shkreli that he not only failed to live up to, but also perhaps actively encouraged her to believe. So I can imagine all too well how she fell into that abyss.
On the other hand, this is giving more air to a raging inferno of self-immolation. I hope Smythe emerges from this, learns from it, and goes on to do something more fulfilling with the rest of her life!
posted by limeonaire at 8:26 AM on December 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
This story only strikes people as strange because people think of Shkreli as an evil nerd because of his looks and depiction as a comic book villain
To be fair, this story is basically just one acid vat shy of Harley Quinn's origin.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:29 AM on December 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
To be fair, this story is basically just one acid vat shy of Harley Quinn's origin.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:29 AM on December 21, 2020 [19 favorites]
It's an ELLE profile piece, and it's presenting one woman's experience, which is part of what women's magazines do. Where they challenge narratives, it tends to be over time and by presenting counter-experience, not by writing hard-core critiques. (Although sometimes they do too.)
I can't say whether it's true to facts or not, that would require a fact check and a lot of information that I don't have. When I used to be involved in those pieces, there is always a danger of trying to fit a messy life into a narrative. I think Smythe humanized Shkreli but I don't think this piece does too much of that.
From a writing perspective, it seems to me to have done a solid job assuming intelligence on the part of the reader, and allowing us to walk with Smythe in her journey and yet come to our own conclusions.
That it's a meta story in journalism definitely makes it interesting to me. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
I can't say whether it's true to facts or not, that would require a fact check and a lot of information that I don't have. When I used to be involved in those pieces, there is always a danger of trying to fit a messy life into a narrative. I think Smythe humanized Shkreli but I don't think this piece does too much of that.
From a writing perspective, it seems to me to have done a solid job assuming intelligence on the part of the reader, and allowing us to walk with Smythe in her journey and yet come to our own conclusions.
That it's a meta story in journalism definitely makes it interesting to me. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
Unexpectedly related content from the world of Major League Baseball...
@JeffPassan: I’ve been saving this anecdote for a story, but screw it. Too good to squirrel away.
Someone suggested Rays pitcher Tyler Glasnow try to get angry before starts. To do this, he would look at pictures of one person. He pulled out his phone and showed me.
It was Martin Shkreli.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2020 [24 favorites]
@JeffPassan: I’ve been saving this anecdote for a story, but screw it. Too good to squirrel away.
Someone suggested Rays pitcher Tyler Glasnow try to get angry before starts. To do this, he would look at pictures of one person. He pulled out his phone and showed me.
It was Martin Shkreli.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2020 [24 favorites]
at the very, very, very least I wouldn't sit down for a lengthy interview and profile about my experiences in this matter if I had gone through them
I mean, on paper, same. But I think there's a lot of context here for seeing why Smythe would see it as an opportunity rather than a mistake—or to put it another way, to see it as a calculated risk, like every other bit of self-identified frog-boiling over the years of this story. Because she's been trying to write her story, and his. She's been trying to make a book happen, a movie happen. Because she blew up her life for this idea of this relationship with this guy, and an investment in the idea that she and she alone had this unique and tale-worthy understanding of his true nature and of a future together with him.
Someone says, hey, I want to profile you and tell your story, when you're sitting in your basement apartment thinking about all of that, you probably recognize the potential downsides of that kind of publicity, but maybe this is the shot. Maybe this is the pivot toward the book and the movie getting steam; maybe this is the inflection point in your relationship with the guy. Maybe, after so many calculated risks that went sour, after so many failed maybes, this is the nexus, the turn, the risk that pays off.
And maybe positive, attentive attention from someone who wants to hear you talk and wants to tell your story is badly attractive at this point in its own right. Maybe after years of this tumultuous relationship with this complicated and sometimes compelling, sometimes cold and unavailable person, it's a relief to talk with someone who really understands, who is interested in you for you, who is your friend and confidante. So why not talk to a journalist writing about the trainwreck of your life.
It's everybody knowing what they're doing and having enough info to know why it's a bad bet or a manipulation but going with it anyway. Shkreli's a shithead who smirked his way into prison; Smythe is a sympathetic enabler who blew up her own life; Clifford's a writer who knew exactly what she might be doing to Smythe on the way in. Clifford at least gets a viral hit for her byline and for Elle so made a pretty good calculation on not much risk here.
I think there's some interesting insight in to Smythe's state of mind through all this and the article is an interesting read, but as with a lot of these trainwreck profiles it ends up having a bad odor in the end because (even, as noted above, with less of the author narratively visible in the piece) you can see all the deliberate writing choices that went into making Smythe regret—if she's able to recognize them—having once again proceeding with undue optimism in the face of charm and implied mutuality.
posted by cortex at 9:00 AM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
I mean, on paper, same. But I think there's a lot of context here for seeing why Smythe would see it as an opportunity rather than a mistake—or to put it another way, to see it as a calculated risk, like every other bit of self-identified frog-boiling over the years of this story. Because she's been trying to write her story, and his. She's been trying to make a book happen, a movie happen. Because she blew up her life for this idea of this relationship with this guy, and an investment in the idea that she and she alone had this unique and tale-worthy understanding of his true nature and of a future together with him.
Someone says, hey, I want to profile you and tell your story, when you're sitting in your basement apartment thinking about all of that, you probably recognize the potential downsides of that kind of publicity, but maybe this is the shot. Maybe this is the pivot toward the book and the movie getting steam; maybe this is the inflection point in your relationship with the guy. Maybe, after so many calculated risks that went sour, after so many failed maybes, this is the nexus, the turn, the risk that pays off.
And maybe positive, attentive attention from someone who wants to hear you talk and wants to tell your story is badly attractive at this point in its own right. Maybe after years of this tumultuous relationship with this complicated and sometimes compelling, sometimes cold and unavailable person, it's a relief to talk with someone who really understands, who is interested in you for you, who is your friend and confidante. So why not talk to a journalist writing about the trainwreck of your life.
It's everybody knowing what they're doing and having enough info to know why it's a bad bet or a manipulation but going with it anyway. Shkreli's a shithead who smirked his way into prison; Smythe is a sympathetic enabler who blew up her own life; Clifford's a writer who knew exactly what she might be doing to Smythe on the way in. Clifford at least gets a viral hit for her byline and for Elle so made a pretty good calculation on not much risk here.
I think there's some interesting insight in to Smythe's state of mind through all this and the article is an interesting read, but as with a lot of these trainwreck profiles it ends up having a bad odor in the end because (even, as noted above, with less of the author narratively visible in the piece) you can see all the deliberate writing choices that went into making Smythe regret—if she's able to recognize them—having once again proceeding with undue optimism in the face of charm and implied mutuality.
posted by cortex at 9:00 AM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Someone should inform Smythe that Shkreli is no good. There's reasons why he's an "outsider to the Ivy League". At best, he's too stupid to not get caught running obvious investment scams.
posted by dmh at 9:03 AM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by dmh at 9:03 AM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
There's a lot to dive into here, but my brain got parked on the fact that this guy could find a girlfriend and I can't. This is doing wonders for my self-esteem, just like when Charles Manson got married. JFC.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:04 AM on December 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:04 AM on December 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
I think what I keep coming back to is that he ghosted her when the article came out - that she thought he was special and they were building castles in the sky, but I bet he was just trying to make prison pass more pleasantly. He’s offering Cinderella stories and she didn’t question them because she thought she was the special one. No way he doesn’t have multiple other women believing the same thing.
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Strip away the celebrity factor, and isn't this a classic tale of a fuccboi? Dude gets what he needs, then runs. This pattern comes up again and again in more ordinary relationships.
posted by airmail at 9:20 AM on December 21, 2020
posted by airmail at 9:20 AM on December 21, 2020
From Smythe's Twitter feed: "Thank you again to @ELLEmagazine for letting me tell my crazy tale. It takes bravery, too, to publish it. It still amazes me HOW HARD it is to get a story as messy and complicated as this to see the light of day. But it's out now. At least that's done."
Also from her feed: "I realize it's hard for many people to accept that 1. Martin is not a psychopath, and 2. a woman can choose to do something with her life (which does not affect you) that you in no way approve of. But that's OK."
One thing I've struggled with is that adults do get to choose self-destructive behaviours from time to time. I can fault ELLE for their choice of story if I really want to (more on the shade it casts on Smythe's professional abilities, although she did resign from Bloomberg, and less on her sexual/relationship status since women should be able to make just as bad choices as men).
I think we've all known a Smythe and wondered how our friend can be making such bad decisions...or been in her shoes.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:22 AM on December 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
Also from her feed: "I realize it's hard for many people to accept that 1. Martin is not a psychopath, and 2. a woman can choose to do something with her life (which does not affect you) that you in no way approve of. But that's OK."
One thing I've struggled with is that adults do get to choose self-destructive behaviours from time to time. I can fault ELLE for their choice of story if I really want to (more on the shade it casts on Smythe's professional abilities, although she did resign from Bloomberg, and less on her sexual/relationship status since women should be able to make just as bad choices as men).
I think we've all known a Smythe and wondered how our friend can be making such bad decisions...or been in her shoes.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:22 AM on December 21, 2020 [12 favorites]
Warriorqueen - what a quote. Shkreli is textbook psychopath. It's why he could do what he did, and why he got caught doing it. (The saving grace of psychopathy is the impulsiveness and lack of empathy makes it very hard for psychopaths to avoid getting caught.)
posted by MattD at 9:27 AM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 9:27 AM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
I know.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:50 AM on December 21, 2020
posted by warriorqueen at 9:50 AM on December 21, 2020
The casual aside that she froze her eggs for him!
posted by Ideal Impulse at 10:10 AM on December 21, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by Ideal Impulse at 10:10 AM on December 21, 2020 [22 favorites]
> 1. Martin is not a psychopath
It's possible that he's a sociopath, yes.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's possible that he's a sociopath, yes.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Richard III's wooing of Lady Anne beside the corpse of her husband, whom he killedThat is scurrilous Tudor slander.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 10:17 AM on December 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
I feel bad for Smythe because she's having her heart broken.
Everyone starts out naive, but not everyone is as desperate as Smythe to have that naivete destroyed. I'm sure she'll come out of this feeling very jaded and "grown up" and maybe that's all she really wanted in the first place. I don't think she's particularly young age-wise, but she comes off as very young emotionally in this -- and probably by the end of it all, she won't be anymore.
Honestly, it's easy for people to seduce and manipulate you if they don't mind lying, and don't mind that all the intimacy between you is fake, enjoy reeling someone in slowly slowly slowly and then tossing them out like trash, just to do it all over again. The comparison to a fallen woman in a Tolstoy novel is apt.
I wonder how her husband felt when Smythe asked what Shkreli could get out of manipulating her.
There's a lot to dive into here, but my brain got parked on the fact that this guy could find a girlfriend and I can't.
For what it's worth, I don't think you should feel bad. You probably want a real relationship -- love, intimacy, commitment, caring. A partnership. That's difficult, it means you've got compatibility and communication and all sorts of skills and serendipities to worry about. If you just wanted to toy with a woman by telling her whatever she desperately needed to hear, exploiting all her vulnerabilities to feel superior to her, throwing her aside like trash to feel even more superior and in control...I'm sure you could do that, too. All it takes is being a horrible person incapable of real intimacy.
posted by rue72 at 10:28 AM on December 21, 2020 [25 favorites]
Everyone starts out naive, but not everyone is as desperate as Smythe to have that naivete destroyed. I'm sure she'll come out of this feeling very jaded and "grown up" and maybe that's all she really wanted in the first place. I don't think she's particularly young age-wise, but she comes off as very young emotionally in this -- and probably by the end of it all, she won't be anymore.
Honestly, it's easy for people to seduce and manipulate you if they don't mind lying, and don't mind that all the intimacy between you is fake, enjoy reeling someone in slowly slowly slowly and then tossing them out like trash, just to do it all over again. The comparison to a fallen woman in a Tolstoy novel is apt.
I wonder how her husband felt when Smythe asked what Shkreli could get out of manipulating her.
There's a lot to dive into here, but my brain got parked on the fact that this guy could find a girlfriend and I can't.
For what it's worth, I don't think you should feel bad. You probably want a real relationship -- love, intimacy, commitment, caring. A partnership. That's difficult, it means you've got compatibility and communication and all sorts of skills and serendipities to worry about. If you just wanted to toy with a woman by telling her whatever she desperately needed to hear, exploiting all her vulnerabilities to feel superior to her, throwing her aside like trash to feel even more superior and in control...I'm sure you could do that, too. All it takes is being a horrible person incapable of real intimacy.
posted by rue72 at 10:28 AM on December 21, 2020 [25 favorites]
Honestly, it's easy for people to seduce and manipulate you if they don't mind lying, and don't mind that all the intimacy between you is fake, enjoy reeling someone in slowly slowly slowly and then tossing them out like trash, just to do it all over again.
One of the things I think media needs to answer for is the idea that you fall in love like a flash and that's the enduring love until the end of your days. I feel like I know so many friends who are like 'but I fell in love and he's the one!' Of the two people I've 'fallen in love in a flash' with, both of them were low-grade sociopaths who were willing to basically not show any of themselves but rather adapt themselves to my thoughts and opinions. Both of them cheated on me and then lied about it. I broke up with both of them and have never regretted either decision. I see them both now, in their late 40s, trying to do the same shit, bouncing from woman to woman and then the relationships flaming out. I can't imagine anyone ever being happy with them.
But relationships that build slowly and that don't have grand gestures or promises of forever don't seem as exciting. And that's because of the media we've consumed that tell us they are lesser.
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on December 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
One of the things I think media needs to answer for is the idea that you fall in love like a flash and that's the enduring love until the end of your days. I feel like I know so many friends who are like 'but I fell in love and he's the one!' Of the two people I've 'fallen in love in a flash' with, both of them were low-grade sociopaths who were willing to basically not show any of themselves but rather adapt themselves to my thoughts and opinions. Both of them cheated on me and then lied about it. I broke up with both of them and have never regretted either decision. I see them both now, in their late 40s, trying to do the same shit, bouncing from woman to woman and then the relationships flaming out. I can't imagine anyone ever being happy with them.
But relationships that build slowly and that don't have grand gestures or promises of forever don't seem as exciting. And that's because of the media we've consumed that tell us they are lesser.
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on December 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
Interview with the author, Stephanie Clifford.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Who’s going to interview the author who interviewed Clifford?
Edit: we ain’t metafilter for nothin’
posted by sjswitzer at 12:29 PM on December 21, 2020 [22 favorites]
Edit: we ain’t metafilter for nothin’
posted by sjswitzer at 12:29 PM on December 21, 2020 [22 favorites]
Was I the only one who saw the byline and immediately thought it had been written by Stormy Daniels? I thought my eyes would pop out of my head.
posted by orrnyereg at 12:47 PM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 12:47 PM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
To be clear, I appreciate Clifford's story for sure! And the interview 1970s Antihero linked is very interesting as well. My commentary above was really about the way Smythe came to sympathize with and want to be part of Shkreli's story to the point that she wrote herself into it, more than anything Clifford did as a writer. I think Clifford walked the line as best as she could in writing this piece!
This story reminds me of an FPP I can't find right now, advice to the woman who wanted to move to the wilderness with her somewhat indifferent/unfulfilling partner. Same genre, ultimately, I feel like.
It also reminds me of something I realized about myself in the course of dating—that I'm really good at storytelling, and it's actually a problem. 'Cause I could—and have tried to—write the whole story myself. What I really want, though, is someone with the imagination and the chops to write the other half, or some percentage. Smythe was doing way too much of the work of writing their story.
posted by limeonaire at 1:04 PM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
This story reminds me of an FPP I can't find right now, advice to the woman who wanted to move to the wilderness with her somewhat indifferent/unfulfilling partner. Same genre, ultimately, I feel like.
It also reminds me of something I realized about myself in the course of dating—that I'm really good at storytelling, and it's actually a problem. 'Cause I could—and have tried to—write the whole story myself. What I really want, though, is someone with the imagination and the chops to write the other half, or some percentage. Smythe was doing way too much of the work of writing their story.
posted by limeonaire at 1:04 PM on December 21, 2020 [5 favorites]
It's been a long time since I've seen Elle magazine so I was puzzled by reading what appears to be a serious story augmented by making the subject wear designer dresses and jewelry. I gather that's Elle's thing, and probably lots of other magazines too, but if you're not used to it it's weird.
posted by JanetLand at 1:38 PM on December 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 1:38 PM on December 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Was I the only one who saw the byline and immediately thought it had been written by Stormy Daniels? I thought my eyes would pop out of my head.
Nope me too.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:40 PM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Nope me too.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:40 PM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Smythe was doing way too much of the work of writing their story.
This article describes a scenario that was pure manipulation on Shkreli's part (the intermittent contact/rewards, the misleading talk of the future) and pure one-sided effort and fantasy on Smythe's (she does so much for him and he's done nothing for her, she describes herself as his partner when Shkreli is refusing even to speak to her), not a relationship.
This reminds me of an expression L.M. Montgomery used in her journals in reference to a woman she knew who had difficulty finding someone to marry, despite having a number of suitors: "she did too much of the courting".
I've said this a number of times before on the blue and on AskMe, but many people buy into the pernicious belief that one can make a relationship happen, or make a bad relationship into a good relationship, through unilateral effort. Good relationships are equitable relationships and are a matter of mutual consent and effort, and of healthy boundaries and realistic expectations on both sides. It does no real good to pursue anyone, or to put up with their shit, in the hope that they'll eventually see the light about being with you/treating you decently. Sure, if you're rowing that boat by yourself, you might see some movement, and your passenger might be willing to stay aboard for awhile, but in the end all you'll do is exhaust yourself and go in circles, and eventually your passenger will probably jump ship for someone else, or just because they felt like it.
Don't do too much of the courting. Don't row the boat by yourself. However you want to put it, don't put in significantly more work into a relationship than your partner, and if it falls apart when you scale back your efforts, then it was a house built on sinking sand and you need to let it sink and go find someone else who wants to be with you, and who is ready to put in the effort it takes to build a relationship with a firmer foundation.
posted by orange swan at 1:43 PM on December 21, 2020 [40 favorites]
This article describes a scenario that was pure manipulation on Shkreli's part (the intermittent contact/rewards, the misleading talk of the future) and pure one-sided effort and fantasy on Smythe's (she does so much for him and he's done nothing for her, she describes herself as his partner when Shkreli is refusing even to speak to her), not a relationship.
This reminds me of an expression L.M. Montgomery used in her journals in reference to a woman she knew who had difficulty finding someone to marry, despite having a number of suitors: "she did too much of the courting".
I've said this a number of times before on the blue and on AskMe, but many people buy into the pernicious belief that one can make a relationship happen, or make a bad relationship into a good relationship, through unilateral effort. Good relationships are equitable relationships and are a matter of mutual consent and effort, and of healthy boundaries and realistic expectations on both sides. It does no real good to pursue anyone, or to put up with their shit, in the hope that they'll eventually see the light about being with you/treating you decently. Sure, if you're rowing that boat by yourself, you might see some movement, and your passenger might be willing to stay aboard for awhile, but in the end all you'll do is exhaust yourself and go in circles, and eventually your passenger will probably jump ship for someone else, or just because they felt like it.
Don't do too much of the courting. Don't row the boat by yourself. However you want to put it, don't put in significantly more work into a relationship than your partner, and if it falls apart when you scale back your efforts, then it was a house built on sinking sand and you need to let it sink and go find someone else who wants to be with you, and who is ready to put in the effort it takes to build a relationship with a firmer foundation.
posted by orange swan at 1:43 PM on December 21, 2020 [40 favorites]
She was so anxious that she hadn’t eaten all morning. Shkreli had been charged the month before with defrauding investors at hedge funds he’d run earlier in his career, and he made a habit of regularly taunting journalists like her. How do I manage the situation, she remembers wondering.
Well, she found a way. Maybe not the best way, but you have to admit it was pretty innovative.
posted by Naberius at 1:44 PM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Well, she found a way. Maybe not the best way, but you have to admit it was pretty innovative.
posted by Naberius at 1:44 PM on December 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
There's a lot to dive into here, but my brain got parked on the fact that this guy could find a girlfriend and I can't. This is doing wonders for my self-esteem, just like when Charles Manson got married. JFC.
Just put that you are evil in your dating profile.
posted by srboisvert at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Just put that you are evil in your dating profile.
posted by srboisvert at 2:31 PM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
When I was seemingly permanently single I took comfort in the fact that I had friends whose love lives were so constantly disastrous and miserable that being single often seemed preferable to what they were going through. "Dating Martin Shkreli while he's in prison" definitely would have qualified as something I would have preferred singledom to.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:57 PM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:57 PM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Will she ever see that Shkreli is a sociopath or, as with Trump's rabid followers, is this blindness a long-term condition?
Judging by her twitter feed, right now she sees herself as a uniquely perceptive and intelligent person who understands that Shkreli is a misunderstood genius who would save us all from COVID if only he were set free. Everyone who thinks Shkreli is a sociopath is just too dumb to see what she sees.
I mean, why would she want to change her narrative about herself to "he was a sociopath, and he duped me into destroying my life for him"?
posted by creepygirl at 3:13 PM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
Judging by her twitter feed, right now she sees herself as a uniquely perceptive and intelligent person who understands that Shkreli is a misunderstood genius who would save us all from COVID if only he were set free. Everyone who thinks Shkreli is a sociopath is just too dumb to see what she sees.
I mean, why would she want to change her narrative about herself to "he was a sociopath, and he duped me into destroying my life for him"?
posted by creepygirl at 3:13 PM on December 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
There's a lot to dive into here, but my brain got parked on the fact that this guy could find a girlfriend and I can't.
Yeah, but girlfriends are people you make a connection with, not interchangeable rewards for - whatever. You don't earn a girlfriend. It can seem unfair when terrible people make a type of connection that you want, but that connection wasn't something they earned and it wouldn't be the same for you anyway. You'd be making a connection with a totally different person.
Or to put it another way: Do you want a girlfriend who'd date Martin Shkreli? Because that's the type of girlfriend that Martin Shkreli has.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:55 PM on December 21, 2020 [29 favorites]
Yeah, but girlfriends are people you make a connection with, not interchangeable rewards for - whatever. You don't earn a girlfriend. It can seem unfair when terrible people make a type of connection that you want, but that connection wasn't something they earned and it wouldn't be the same for you anyway. You'd be making a connection with a totally different person.
Or to put it another way: Do you want a girlfriend who'd date Martin Shkreli? Because that's the type of girlfriend that Martin Shkreli has.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:55 PM on December 21, 2020 [29 favorites]
From The Cut, "Martin Shkreli’s Long History of Harassing Female Journalists":
posted by mhum at 4:21 PM on December 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
And yet there’s one notable aspect of Shkreli’s time as a public figure that the piece glosses over, an aspect that seems crucial to any story about his relationship with journalists and media: his pattern of harassing female reporters online. The Elle story nods to it with a brief reference to Shkreli’s treatment of Emily Saul, a former New York Post reporter. Saul told Elle that Shkreli — or one of his supporters — created a fake Facebook page for her and falsely claimed that they were in a relationship. He also purchased emilysaul.com for less than $12 and then held the domain hostage, offering to sell it for thousands of dollars.Regarding Lauren Duca, the article goes on to quote Smythe responding to a Tweet asking her about Shkreli's harassment with: "It was kind of a two-way street with that awful nonsense. I don't approve." Which is... not a great response, imo.
In the article, Smythe defends the behavior, further evidence of her unwavering loyalty: “He trolls because he’s anxious,” she says. But it’s worth noting that the extent of Shkreli’s “trolling” goes far beyond his treatment of Saul — in 2017, Business Insider reported that Shkreli bought up the personal domain names of 12 reporters who had written about him, websites he later customized to mock the journalists in question.
And he was particularly fixated on women in the media industry. Take his 2017 harassment of writer Lauren Duca. After Duca declined his invitation to attend President Trump’s inauguration as his plus-one, he changed his Twitter avatar and cover photos to pictures of Duca and made his bio “small crush on @laurenduca (hope she doesn’t find out).” His harassment of Duca became so severe that Twitter suspended him.
posted by mhum at 4:21 PM on December 21, 2020 [9 favorites]
Judging by her twitter feed, right now she sees herself as a uniquely perceptive and intelligent person who understands that Shkreli is a misunderstood genius who would save us all from COVID if only he were set free. Everyone who thinks Shkreli is a sociopath is just too dumb to see what she sees.
This is making me flash back to a friend I had twenty years ago who was in a terrible relationship with an abusive, controlling sociopath, and whenever I urged her to leave him, whatever argument I used, she told me that I "didn't understand", that I "didn't know what it's like when you love someone", etc. They're still together, and have two children, and now that former friend of mine is a very vocal Trump supporter and Yellow Vester who frequently claims on Facebook that people don't understand what the Yellow Vests are really all about.
When you're in denial about your ongoing disastrous life choices, you have to dive deep and then keep doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on it.
posted by orange swan at 4:39 PM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is making me flash back to a friend I had twenty years ago who was in a terrible relationship with an abusive, controlling sociopath, and whenever I urged her to leave him, whatever argument I used, she told me that I "didn't understand", that I "didn't know what it's like when you love someone", etc. They're still together, and have two children, and now that former friend of mine is a very vocal Trump supporter and Yellow Vester who frequently claims on Facebook that people don't understand what the Yellow Vests are really all about.
When you're in denial about your ongoing disastrous life choices, you have to dive deep and then keep doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on it.
posted by orange swan at 4:39 PM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Apparently, Smythe isn't the only one crushing on Shkreli.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:06 PM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:06 PM on December 21, 2020 [17 favorites]
Every fiber of my being says Blaire Erskine should be the next press secretary. I will also accept a Netflix special.
posted by cmfletcher at 5:14 PM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by cmfletcher at 5:14 PM on December 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Holy cow. Blaire Erskine is funny.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:39 PM on December 21, 2020
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 5:39 PM on December 21, 2020
I will also accept a Netflix special.
I will also accept an Elle interview with extra fashionable clothes. Easy, breezy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:38 PM on December 21, 2020
I will also accept an Elle interview with extra fashionable clothes. Easy, breezy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:38 PM on December 21, 2020
Society won’t be equal until a male journalist falls in love with and destroys his life and career for Sidney Powell -- Daley Haggar on twitter.
posted by valkane at 10:08 PM on December 21, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by valkane at 10:08 PM on December 21, 2020 [13 favorites]
There was a lot of LOL WTF parts in this profile but the part I'm still thinking about the next day (as a perpetually aggrieved person working in academia) is the mention of the event at the Ivy League student group where "a dean shook their hands" as if this is somehow a marker of a glamorous milestone.
posted by mostly vowels at 5:41 AM on December 22, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by mostly vowels at 5:41 AM on December 22, 2020 [7 favorites]
I keep thinking this is someone who at her core believes that the romance novel trope-rich alpha cold bad boy is misunderstood, truly working for good, and I’m the only one who knows his real heart-is happening to her.
posted by purenitrous at 7:55 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by purenitrous at 7:55 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
What I think is interesting is no one feels sympathy for Smythe.
I think the deeply stupid parts of the Trumpism era factor into that. Four years ago feels like ten, but I got to tangentially thinking of how early on, there was a truly tedious amount of Poor Melania She Looks So Sad And Trapped floating around (as people worked through the Bargaining stage, presumably), which has died steadily in the subjective decades since as people searching for a shred of something positively-human in the whole situation came to terms with there being no legitimate sympathy to be had for awful people.
So there's a heightened degree of being aware that Oh Poor Them is sometimes just a smokescreen over water finding its own level.
(Plus of course, there not being much sympathy for anyone who hasn't felt him sprout a sphincter.)
posted by Drastic at 8:29 AM on December 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think the deeply stupid parts of the Trumpism era factor into that. Four years ago feels like ten, but I got to tangentially thinking of how early on, there was a truly tedious amount of Poor Melania She Looks So Sad And Trapped floating around (as people worked through the Bargaining stage, presumably), which has died steadily in the subjective decades since as people searching for a shred of something positively-human in the whole situation came to terms with there being no legitimate sympathy to be had for awful people.
So there's a heightened degree of being aware that Oh Poor Them is sometimes just a smokescreen over water finding its own level.
(Plus of course, there not being much sympathy for anyone who hasn't felt him sprout a sphincter.)
posted by Drastic at 8:29 AM on December 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
came to terms with there being no legitimate sympathy to be had for awful people
If anything good comes out of the last four years, I hope that it might be a significantly reduced tolerance for Frankfurtian bullshit, and the creeps who either peddle it or conspire to do so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 AM on December 22, 2020
If anything good comes out of the last four years, I hope that it might be a significantly reduced tolerance for Frankfurtian bullshit, and the creeps who either peddle it or conspire to do so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 AM on December 22, 2020
> valkane: "Society won’t be equal until a male journalist falls in love with and destroys his life and career for Sidney Powell -- Daley Haggar on twitter."
Until then, we will have to make do with Jonathan Safran Foer blowing up his own marriage (though not his career) because he thought Natalie Portman was going to fall in love with him (spoler alert: she didn't). Also, in that case, the fucked-up-ed-ness of the situation was 100% on Foer and 0% on Portman unlike whatever appears to be going on with Shkreli and Smythe.
posted by mhum at 10:25 AM on December 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
Until then, we will have to make do with Jonathan Safran Foer blowing up his own marriage (though not his career) because he thought Natalie Portman was going to fall in love with him (spoler alert: she didn't). Also, in that case, the fucked-up-ed-ness of the situation was 100% on Foer and 0% on Portman unlike whatever appears to be going on with Shkreli and Smythe.
posted by mhum at 10:25 AM on December 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
There's a lot to dive into here, but my brain got parked on the fact that this guy could find a girlfriend and I can't. This is doing wonders for my self-esteem, just like when Charles Manson got married. JFC.
at least you aren't the husband!
posted by vogon_poet at 11:00 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
at least you aren't the husband!
posted by vogon_poet at 11:00 AM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
I appreciate how this piece about Jonathan Safran Foer and Michelle Williams dating (linked from the above Vox piece) was written by a guy whose profile illo looks just like the picture of Jonathan Safran Foer.
posted by limeonaire at 12:49 PM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by limeonaire at 12:49 PM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
"Dating Martin Shkreli while he's in prison" definitely would have qualified as something I would have preferred singledom to.
or preferred to dating him while he isn't in prison.
posted by 20 year lurk at 1:52 PM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
or preferred to dating him while he isn't in prison.
posted by 20 year lurk at 1:52 PM on December 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
Has anyone reading this story been deluged in buttless onesie ads? (See here for more. Or check out Uncleozzy's FPP above.)
posted by CCBC at 4:10 PM on December 22, 2020
posted by CCBC at 4:10 PM on December 22, 2020
There probably many takes on this story, but Brandon Taylor's made me feel a tinge of sympathy for Smythe.
This is what happens when you think you have glimpsed the secret pain of an emotionally constipated person — in my case, usually a straight man. You think, Here is a beautiful mystery to be solved. His prickly exterior is just a spiky carapace protecting a delicate soul from a brutal world.
I uh related maybe a little too much to his article.
posted by later, paladudes at 8:52 PM on December 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is what happens when you think you have glimpsed the secret pain of an emotionally constipated person — in my case, usually a straight man. You think, Here is a beautiful mystery to be solved. His prickly exterior is just a spiky carapace protecting a delicate soul from a brutal world.
I uh related maybe a little too much to his article.
posted by later, paladudes at 8:52 PM on December 22, 2020 [4 favorites]
Judging by her twitter feed, right now she sees herself as a uniquely perceptive and intelligent person
Isn't that pretty much everyone in Metafilter? How many people here are still privately certain that Kanye West is a brilliant artist who's just trolling Taylor Swift? How 'bout that Al Franken?
What I think is interesting is no one feels sympathy for Smythe.
Well I think there's kind of a desperate need to make her an Other, to say "I'm better than that, I would never be taken in like she was." Which is self delusion of the highest order, but it is comforting.
Also, empathy, especially online, is largely conditional on doing and saying the right things. In showing fellow membership in the proper tribe. You get lots of leeway if your small-p politics are right. Again witness Kanye and Franken.
Finally, she's a woman. Social media in general doesn't have the best record in showing empathy to women.
posted by happyroach at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
Isn't that pretty much everyone in Metafilter? How many people here are still privately certain that Kanye West is a brilliant artist who's just trolling Taylor Swift? How 'bout that Al Franken?
What I think is interesting is no one feels sympathy for Smythe.
Well I think there's kind of a desperate need to make her an Other, to say "I'm better than that, I would never be taken in like she was." Which is self delusion of the highest order, but it is comforting.
Also, empathy, especially online, is largely conditional on doing and saying the right things. In showing fellow membership in the proper tribe. You get lots of leeway if your small-p politics are right. Again witness Kanye and Franken.
Finally, she's a woman. Social media in general doesn't have the best record in showing empathy to women.
posted by happyroach at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Cut: All the Time I Wasted Trying to Please Indifferent Men by Brandon Taylor:
An Elle profile of Christie Smythe lit up social media this week. It’s a harrowing and utterly bananas record of how a respected journalist blew up her life in order to shoot her shot at erstwhile Pharma bro Martin Shkreli of investor fraud, AIDS medication price gouging, and Wu-Tang one-off album fame. At first I thought, How could a person who understands this much about legal proceedings and fraud be this dumb?posted by Lexica at 11:23 AM on January 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
But then I realized: I could understand perfectly, actually. This is what happens when you think you have glimpsed the secret pain of an emotionally constipated person — in my case, usually a straight man. You think, Here is a beautiful mystery to be solved. His prickly exterior is just a spiky carapace protecting a delicate soul from a brutal world.
…
I read much of the piece cringing in self-recognition. When you’re lonely and desperate and someone intriguing leans in and brushes your arm with theirs, when you look at them and they look at you and they say something that feels true about you, or they just talk to you in a way that singles you out from the whole big world, you feel that you owe them something. Everything they say holds this charge. Even if it’s vague. Especially if it’s vague. I like you and You’re so cool and I like talking to you and We get along and Do you ever just feel … ? and Haha. With the amount of energy I have spent trying to decode what a straight man means by “Haha” with my friends, one could power the entire world for a decade.
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posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:00 PM on December 20, 2020 [45 favorites]