Slippery fish are a fact of life!

January 4, 2021 10:06 AM

The UK's Health and Safety Executive has no patience for unhelpful "health and safety" excuses. There's no legislation against the staff at a burger van cutting your burger in half, there should indeed be mirrors in disabled toilets, frilly socks do not endanger students, kitchens are allowed to have knives and it's reasonable to ask for your trout to be filleted at a fishmonger's counter. (h/t @ZiziFothSi)
posted by Vesihiisi (40 comments total)

Basically, all these "excuses" have a single goal - to redirect the consumer's legitimate anger that an expected service is not available to the government, relying on the "government as boogieman" philosophy popularized by Reagan and Thatcher.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2021 [49 favorites]

Under Case 303 - Burger van refuses to cut burger in half:

The panel have a real beef with this kind of unhelpful response to customers which completely misuses "health and safety".

(emphasis mine, I think this needs no further comment)
posted by LSK at 10:29 AM on January 4, 2021 [10 favorites]

local bitcher in the early days of Covid had this sign:

'at this time, we're unable to slice ham'
sorry for the inconvenience



posted by clavdivs at 10:37 AM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]

I worked at a fish store for a while as fish wrangler. I would skin and filet fish for tips. We had special gloves made out of wool and metal thread. The main use was to avoid cutting off fingers, but they also allowed you to firmly grip even the most slippery denizens of the deep.
posted by Splunge at 10:41 AM on January 4, 2021 [5 favorites]

I would really, really like to draw someone's attention to the fact that at least some of these have downloadable PDF posters illustrating the issue. It may go without saying that the posters are amazing. Please enjoy the PDF links in the following:

New regulations would require trapeze artists to wear hard hats.
HSE bans traditional school ties (also includes poster in Welsh)
All park benches must be replaced because they are 3 inches too low.

Thank you so much for sharing this, Vesihiisi!
posted by Hellgirl at 10:46 AM on January 4, 2021 [13 favorites]

Wow, a lot of the examples are HSE being annoyed that the term Heath and Safety Regulations is being used a in a generic manner. The minimum wage staff at the local chippy isn't going to care if a policy is in place because of HSR or Food Safety Regulations or that those are different departments and will probably use those terms interchangeably. And that assumes that it is not the complainant who is making the error. Seems a little petty to even bring it up.

Practically no one knows the difference between electrical bonds and grounds; even electricians tend to use the words interchangeably. But I'd hate to see the local regulatory body put out a bunch "well actually" examples that don't address the complaint.
posted by Mitheral at 10:47 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]

This is also maybe a pendulum swing back to something more normal. I was living in the UK from 2005-2007 and at that time, a lot of institutions were going too far on health & safety out of fear of litigation.

I heard about the master of a university college who was told off because he changed a light bulb in his college-provided-resident, on the grounds that he wasn't trained to safely handle electrical systems. He pointed out (rightly) that he was a professor of electrical engineering, and thus able to handle... a basic household chore in his own home.

(They also complained that he wasn't "ladder-trained" - but he actually used a chair. Which isn't ideal from a workplace safety perspective, but still, it was his house and his choice.)

There was no idea in the administration of some institutions that there are reasonable risks that people are allowed to take - and it was really interfering with quality of life for people. It was also like the time that the Toronto School Board decided that all of its school playground structures were unsafe and removed them - but without replacing them (due to lack of funds). I still wonder if all the kids did what we would have done (and did do) in the 80s: go play in and around the underground parking entrances, which was way more dangerous.
posted by jb at 10:51 AM on January 4, 2021 [6 favorites]

Yeah, reading these, I think a lot of time, what people mean by 'health and safety' is 'our business liability insurer told us not to'.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:59 AM on January 4, 2021 [13 favorites]

This HS stuff is getting really stupid here NZ too. According to my own anecdata it's leading to an increase in one-person companies, and dramatic siloisation as people cut out areas if their discipline to avoid 'hazards ', it's not the only reason but a big part.
posted by unearthed at 11:07 AM on January 4, 2021

Jacquelynne, I think that's exactly it; I'm currently trying to get insurance to do phytoremediation which no one is doing in NZ afaict primarily due to insurance perceived risks. I've been waiting 5 months, every few weeks I call them.
posted by unearthed at 11:14 AM on January 4, 2021

local bitcher

Typosterical!
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:14 AM on January 4, 2021 [13 favorites]

I read "kitchens are allowed to have knives" as kittens, and was one side with the ruling.
posted by Keith Talent at 11:14 AM on January 4, 2021 [8 favorites]

Wow, a lot of the examples are HSE being annoyed that the term Heath and Safety Regulations is being used a in a generic manner.

I was under the impression that the phrase "health and safety" in the UK would not usually be used in a generic manner, because it's so strongly associated with government regulations.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:34 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]

The butcher told me that I needed to stop sitting on their meat slicer because of health and safety.

The real problem was that they were getting behind with their orders
posted by Ned G at 11:49 AM on January 4, 2021 [32 favorites]

Wow, case 303 is a real cutting decision.
posted by biogeo at 11:52 AM on January 4, 2021

I'm curious about whether or not people living in the UK think it's generic, and what purpose they think these myths about health and safety regulations serve.

My impression - mostly through British television - is that it's not really used as a generic, and that complaints about health and safety regulations serve a kind of reactionary, anti-regulatory purpose. It sometimes seems connected to anti-EU sentiment. In that case, it doesn't seem petty to try to correct them.

But I don't know how much of that is because I'm interpreting it through an American lens.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:56 AM on January 4, 2021 [10 favorites]

The butcher told me that I needed to stop sitting on their meat slicer because of health and safety.

Bill worked in a pickle factory. He had been employed there for a number of years when he came home one day to confess to his wife that he had a terrible compulsion. He had an urge to stick his penis in the pickle slicer. His wife suggested that he should see a therapist to talk about it, but Bill indicated that he'd be too embarrassed. He vowed to overcome the compulsion on his own.

One day a few weeks later Bill came home absolutely ashen. His wife could see at once that something was seriously wrong. "What's wrong, Bill?" she asked.

"Do you remember that I told you how I had this tremendous urge to put my penis in the pickle slicer?"
"Oh, Bill, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"My God, Bill, what happened?"
"I got fired."
"No, Bill. I mean, what happened with the pickle slicer?"





"Oh... she got fired too."
posted by notsnot at 12:20 PM on January 4, 2021 [23 favorites]

This is the first one I read, and I could hear the exasperation coming through:

Case 365 -Students banned from attending school on their last day

Issue

A media article carried a story of a school banning sixth year students from attending on their last day, citing health and safety.

Panel opinion

Health and safety law is being used as a convenient catchall here to hide the real issues. Muck-up days happen in lots of schools up and down the country and are about having fun. Boundaries to the celebrations should be set in advance and clear expectations set on what and what will not be allowed so that leavers do not blot their copy books on the last day. The school should rely on normal school discipline arrangements and not use health and safety as an excuse for banning students from having a memorable last day.

I can't say I disagree!
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:24 PM on January 4, 2021 [4 favorites]

The minimum wage staff at the local chippy isn't going to care...

None of the complaints in the FPP were against minimum wage workers - in each instance it was an owner, manager, or supervisor. Most involved resistance to providing reasonable accommodations, and the school banning girls from wearing frilly socks is clearly gendered nonsense. Not petty at all to call this nonsense out for what it is. I enjoy that the panel does it with dry humor.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:33 PM on January 4, 2021 [10 favorites]

They do not seem to object to the term "health and safety" being used generically when applicable, even when it's an independent group, not the government, making that determination.

E.g.:
Issue
A marathon organiser has banned the use of MP3 players and similar devices using earphones for reasons of health and safety.

Panel decision
There are no specific health and safety rules which ban the wearing of earphones/mp3 devices during running events. However the organisers of such events are entitled to make their own assessments and it does not seem unreasonable that earphones are not allowed as they would impair competitors' ability to hear any public announcements.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:55 PM on January 4, 2021 [4 favorites]

Yeah, reading these, I think a lot of time, what people mean by 'health and safety' is 'our business liability insurer told us not to'.

They often mean I don’t want to or don’t want you to do that, but I’m giving you statement that blames an uncontactable other so you don’t argue with me and go away.
posted by jmauro at 1:54 PM on January 4, 2021 [20 favorites]

This Panel will look into enquiries regarding the advice given by non-regulators such as insurance companies, health and safety consultants and employers and, quickly assess if a sensible and proportionate decision has been made.

Oh, yes - I remember more now about the H&S discussions in Britain at the time. The rumour was that health & safety consultants would be held personally responsible if there was every anything that they didn't note as a health & safety issue and later someone got hurt. So health & safety consultants said (just about) EVERYTHING was a potential risk.

At the time, I was hanging out with graduate students in the arts and pure sciences - not exactly reactionary or conservative people. But we all talked, unironically, about "health-and-safety gone mad." Health and safety did seem to have become some extreme at the time - and there wasn't any good countervailing weight against the consultants or insurance companies to keep everything reasonable. Now, there seems to be one - this is good, and a source of funny stories.
posted by jb at 2:21 PM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]

All park benches must be replaced because they are 3 inches too low.

This is only because all park benches are on mounds made of cans of Carling. The benches came first but the Park Drinker's Hoard, officially property of the Queen, came shortly thereafter.
posted by srboisvert at 2:21 PM on January 4, 2021 [3 favorites]

My impression - mostly through British television - is that it's not really used as a generic, and that complaints about health and safety regulations serve a kind of reactionary, anti-regulatory purpose. It sometimes seems connected to anti-EU sentiment. In that case, it doesn't seem petty to try to correct them.

British people have been going on about jobsworths and bureaucracy ever since they elevated both to high art. So it's probably at least pre-Roman occupation. Nothing much to do with Europe other than the EU broadening the target range of their complaining.

(I have friends who lived in Brussels in a great old apartment building that had a somewhat terrifying wrought iron elevator with no door. The building had to upgrade the elevator to meet real existing safety requirements and the building occupants when talking to each other about it would say "Bloody Brussels" mimicking the English in what was half-mockery and half-empathy.)
posted by srboisvert at 2:30 PM on January 4, 2021 [3 favorites]

"Health and safety" is a catchphrase used by both rule makers and moany gits alike whenever something's been banned for unclear reasons, especially when it was something previously allowed or commonplace. Any overlap with actual Health and Safety law is purely coincidental.

It has enormous amounts of cultural and political baggage. Not just EU regulations, not just government, but officialdom in general - bosses, schoolmasters, council bureaucrats, traffic wardens (meter maids) etc etc. There's also a huge amount of implied nostalgia for the good old days where you could happily lose your arm in a thresher and still be home in time for tea.
posted by grahamparks at 2:37 PM on January 4, 2021 [18 favorites]

I think a lot of time, what people mean by 'health and safety' is 'our business liability insurer told us not to'.

I work in a field that deals a lot with insurance. It's highly unlikely that a fishmonger's insurance carrier would think that filleting fish was an unreasonable risk. They may insist that the business have knife safety training requirements in place for their employees and provide suitable protective gear such as cut-resistant gloves, but "you work for a fishmonger but are not permitted to cut up fish" is laughable on its face.
posted by Lexica at 2:42 PM on January 4, 2021 [3 favorites]

Yeah, 'health and safety' is used the same way that a fast food employee will say that a machine is 'being cleaned'.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:50 PM on January 4, 2021 [7 favorites]

I do a fair bit of work with risk (which, in Australia, is also deeply culturally stupid) and it’s less that it’s ‘health and safety gone mad’ than ‘health and safety gone bureaucratic’. Because the assessment of risk has a form, and because the form is a means of exercising power, every possible risk is actually assessed. The power of the State in risk has shifted people’s actual judgement of risks to judgement about forms about risk. It’s no wonder that ‘elimination’, the highest means on the hierarchy of risk controls, gets used!

What’s far more prevalent, however, but invisible, is institutions demanding a form filled out to justify an existing, risky, practice, on the basis that the form itself will mitigate the risk...
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:52 PM on January 4, 2021 [5 favorites]

British people have been going on about jobsworths and bureaucracy ever since they elevated both to high art. So it's probably at least pre-Roman occupation.

Folklorists have argued that Grendel’s attack is actually a distorted memory of a great party being broken up by an inspector whose concern was that Heorot wasn’t licensed for so much revelry and songs of how the Almighty fashioned the Middle Realm (to say nothing of the horses). “Hwæt” may be an abbreviation for “Hwælþ ond safehood biþ gehark’t.”
posted by No-sword at 2:54 PM on January 4, 2021 [15 favorites]

The scariest thing about this is that nobody appears to have reported anything since 2018. I suppose that means that everything since then is "normal".
posted by Cardinal Fang at 3:11 PM on January 4, 2021

I read "kitchens are allowed to have knives" as kittens, and was one side with the ruling.

In my experience, they usually have about twenty of them, razor sharp, and all retractable.

In fact, they are pointy at five of the six ends, but don't think grabbing them by the sixth one will save you. No, no.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:24 PM on January 4, 2021 [8 favorites]

Can someone explain the disabled toilet mirror thing? Is this that the should be a mirror in a toilet stall or that they were claiming there shouldn't be a mirror over a sink in a single occupant disabled friendly bathroom?
posted by Ferreous at 5:02 PM on January 4, 2021

They had not bothered to install a mirror and were pretending it was for health and safety reasons when really they were just being cheap at the expense of the disabled.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:06 PM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]

The business was claiming that H&S regulations prohibited a mirror which is just looney. And in fact other regulations not only require a mirror but specify things like minimum size, mounting height and mounting angle.

I was thinking of cases like #102 where HSE says:

The safety of food served in restaurants is not covered by occupational health and safety legislation but by Food Safety Regulations, which are the responsibility of a different regulator. The Food Standards Agency's website offers advice on requirements for cooked meat.

So sure the chain says H&S regs are preventing something is not technically correct but the fact that FSA regulations prevent the serving of non-well done hamburger is kind of a hair split that the customer doesn't care about and the employees relaying the restriction are probably fuzzy on at best.

This sort of thing pops up all the time in my job as an electrician. I might say that "code" requires a smoke detector on every floor or exit signs and emergancy lighting at specific locations and people may assume I mean electrical code when really it is Building Code for the former and Fire Code for the latter. If a client complains to Technical Safety BC (who only cares about electrical, gas and elevating installations) that I told them that "code" requires a smoke on every floor and they respond "Electrical code does not make any mention of smoke detectors" they are technically correct but it is going to piss off the client who thinks I'm lying to them and me when I have to deal with the client who comes to me and says "See TSBC says on their web site smokes aren't required" and thinks I'm ripping them off.

And yes there are undoubtedly many many cases where "H&S regs" are used as an excuse for something the business/employees don't want to deal with or that is actually an insurance requirement. You see that here where people will say "Split rims are illegal" (no they aren't) or "Budd wheels on trailers are illegal" (sometimes but mostly no) or "Aluminum wiring is illegal" (we install thousands of kilometers of it every year and even the stuff they are thinking of isn't illegal just an insurance hassle).

Anyone who has ever dealt with the public will know why this approach is often taken.
posted by Mitheral at 5:07 PM on January 4, 2021 [8 favorites]

(I have friends who lived in Brussels in a great old apartment building that had a somewhat terrifying wrought iron elevator with no door. The building had to upgrade the elevator to meet real existing safety requirements and the building occupants when talking to each other about it would say "Bloody Brussels" mimicking the English in what was half-mockery and half-empathy.)

See also, as I once witnessed: Old guy [at the sky]: "Fuckin'...ENGLAND!!!"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:14 PM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]

Mithrael, as an electrician you know those distinctions, and aren't claiming anything factually wrong - you're telling people code requires it, not that Technical Safety BC require it. If you said the latter, they'd be quite correct to be piqued, and to point to the relevant regulatory authority.

It is not a big ask to expect restaurant staff to know the relevant regulatory authorities in their field either. It's not like "sorry, food safety" is any less easy and deflecting than "sorry, health and
safety".
posted by Dysk at 9:33 PM on January 4, 2021

(Also in my brief experience being employed to throw university students off sports fields they hadn't booked out, "sorry, insurance requires it" works just as well/badly as any other excuse you might come up with, except that it's actually accurate and you might avoid an argument with some student if government regulations who might otherwise "well actually..." you and refuse to believe that you aren't just making up reasons to throw them out when you correct yourself (a colleague, not me).)
posted by Dysk at 9:38 PM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]

Folklorists have argued that Grendel’s attack is actually a distorted memory of a great party being broken up by an inspector whose concern was that Heorot wasn’t licensed for so much revelry and songs of how the Almighty fashioned the Middle Realm (to say nothing of the horses). “Hwæt” may be an abbreviation for “Hwælþ ond safehood biþ gehark’t.”

Did you hear that all mead benches now have to be raised by 3 inches?
posted by atrazine at 5:26 AM on January 5, 2021 [1 favorite]

My favorite recent workplace safety conflict arose when the institution's inspectors made a very reasonable request for updated safety switches to be added to an older machine which lacked them. After many months of unexplained delay, the staff electricians finally refused to install said switches, on the basis that they weren't permitted to "modify" equipment. They were willing to install useless additional switches in series with the machine, at great cost, but as far as they were concerned the 50 year-old equipment itself had to remain inviolate. This left two ways forward: to scrap an expensive, perfectly functional and necessary tool, or to have someone knowledgeable but uncertified quietly install the updated controls off-books. I'll leave it to the reader to guess which path was taken.

Even when there's a genuine interest in user safety, the wrangling over who takes responsibility for change can get really stupid.
posted by jon1270 at 6:35 AM on January 5, 2021 [1 favorite]

Case 365 -Students banned from attending school on their last day

We had this! Unfortunately due to an administrative error, there was a feedback loop and we were accidentally banned for the entire term as each penultimate day because the new last day, which we were then banned from.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:59 AM on January 6, 2021 [4 favorites]