The morning after insurrection
January 7, 2021 8:15 AM   Subscribe

After the first breach of the US Capitol in over 200 years, America is coming to terms with this being driven by the exiting President, rather than an invading power. Continuation of the prior thread.

Questions are being asked about how the Capitol Police failed to deal with a heavily signposted threat, and contrasts to recent Black Lives Matter protests.

Facebook have removed Trump from their platform indefinitely.

Live coverage at Washington Post, New York Times and Guardian.

Mods: please feel free to edit/add additional etc, mainly put up for thread length purposes.
posted by MattWPBS (1359 comments total) 93 users marked this as a favorite
 
Repeating my link from earlier, the FBI has opened a page for tips if you have any information about individuals involved in yesterday's action.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:21 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Carrying in from the old thread, a response to the note that Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger is calling for the 25th Amendment to be invoked and for Trump to be removed from office -

Congress can't invoke 25. That is only something that Pence and the Cabinet can do. (Although I understand last night some members of the cabinet were talking about it.)

My roommate points out that a much smarter thing for Congress to do is to start Impeachment talks now, to sort of force Pence into choosing whether he wants to let the newly-Democratic-majority Senate rule on that, or whether he can try to save a shred of dignity for his party by invoking the 25th Amendment himself.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:21 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


After the first breach of the US Capitol in over 200 years, America is coming to terms with this being driven by the exiting President, rather than an invading power. Continuation of the prior thread.

I dunno, I've been saying for years that the military always slowly sends its tactics back home to be used on the American populace. I'm not sure I should be so surprised that America essentially invaded itself.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:22 AM on January 7 [26 favorites]


"And now, just in: Capitol police say in a statement that while they had a "robust plan" to address anticipated First Amendment activities, "these mass riots were not First Amendment activities; they were criminal riotous behavior." -- Natasha Bertrand, politico
posted by valkane at 8:22 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


"robust plan" to address anticipated First Amendment activities,

This is why cops support Trump. Because they shit out just as much absolute bullshit at the same speed.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:24 AM on January 7 [73 favorites]


In case there is another similar gathering, maybe those MeFiers in DC can take photos of out-of-state license plates?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:24 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Remember this when the pundits start cheering about how our institutions withstood this:

“Don't yet rejoice in his defeat, you men! Although the world stood up and stopped the bastard, The bitch that bore him is in heat again.”

—Bertolt Brecht
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:24 AM on January 7 [134 favorites]


"We were shocked, shocked to find rioting going on here."
posted by wenestvedt at 8:24 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]




In case there is another similar gathering, maybe those MeFiers in DC can take photos of out-of-state license plates?

A few smarties did that here in Washington state. I do hope others thought to do so as well. They catalogued them the night before.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:24 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Do....do the Capital police not realize that their makes them look even worse?

"Oh, no, we don't have ANY kind of plan in place for an armed attack on the Capital! We save that for peaceful protestors!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:25 AM on January 7 [104 favorites]


Ah yes, every demonstration by non-white and/or left-leaning groups is a potential riot, and must be policed as such.

But nobody could possibly have anticipated that a sacred First Amendment activity by such level-headed folks as the MAGA could become a riot. Unthinkable. Inconceivable.
posted by Happy Dave at 8:25 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


It would be really swell if Congress could reconsider their current two-week recess.
posted by coppermoss at 8:25 AM on January 7 [77 favorites]


I wondered if the perceived slowness of arrests of these widely photographed men is because the FBI does not want them to be pardoned. But that assumes good will and perspicacity. Probably they just are working to the clock with no particular urgency or interest.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:26 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


I wondered if the perceived slowness of arrests of these widely photographed men is because the FBI does not want them to be pardoned. But that assumes good will and perspicacity. Probably they just are working to the clock with no particular urgency or interest.

"Some of those who work forces....."

Everybody knows the rest.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:27 AM on January 7 [60 favorites]


> In case there is another similar gathering, maybe those MeFiers in DC can take photos of out-of-state license plates?

Have you ever been there? Most of the cars on the street in the commercial and governmental areas have out-of-DC license plates on any given day.
posted by at by at 8:28 AM on January 7 [27 favorites]


maybe those MeFiers in DC can take photos of out-of-state license plates?

DC is nothing but out-of-state license plates.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:28 AM on January 7 [45 favorites]


I guess this is relevant. I have a friend who surprised me when he told me he was once arrested with a kilo of cocaine. He received one month in jail. He's white.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:28 AM on January 7 [21 favorites]


Questions are being asked about how the Capitol Police failed to deal with a heavily signposted threat, and contrasts to recent Black Lives Matter protests.

Two Twitter videos (CW - mob violence & fighting):

The moment it all began. (from what seems to be one of the "first lines" about 100 yards (ish?) in front of the Capitol.)

This video of the siege of the Capitol on TikTok is crazy and different than I had seen. (the point at which the thugs got past the last line and got into the building itself.)

"robust plan"

Bullshit. Just those two videos make it obvious that even besides any overt sympathizing or cooperation from the cops, "wholly inadequate" is a far more accurate description.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:29 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Maybe it's because most people (of all races) actually have good moral compasses and know that violent insurrection is actually a bad thing?

Also, the only real impact of yesterday is that a pro forma process got pushed back 12 hours, and some politicians had their speeches carried live on CNN instead of just having them summarized later. I guess a few WH people put their two weeks notice in.

The coup attempted had extremely little impact on actually changing anything.
posted by sideshow at 8:29 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


"The amazing thing about "it might have been antifa" is that Trump literally summoned these people to DC, spoke at their event, offered to walk them over to the Capitol and then praised them afterward." -- Molly Ball
posted by valkane at 8:30 AM on January 7 [121 favorites]


The coup attempted had extremely little impact on actually changing anything.

This is true, but it doesn't mean it's not the first domino to fall in a long line of dominoes called "a failed state."

Failed states don't happen overnight. Civil wars don't happen overnight. This isn't over.

The fact that our system didn't "buckle" under Trump doesn't mean shit, the game has changed.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:30 AM on January 7 [105 favorites]


Repeating my info from the end of the old thread: a 12.4GB compilation of Capitol breach related video and images collected by u/AdamLynch on /r/DataHoarder has a BitTorrent info hash of c91aa813f2ad2d982e0d760bfce62deefc9d9b5d if you'd like to join the evidence preservation swarm.

Content warning: includes multiple items showing the participant who was shot and killed, including at least one video of the actual shooting.
posted by flabdablet at 8:31 AM on January 7 [35 favorites]


As to there being "no plan": that's the whole deal with stochastic terrorism. No one goes in saying, "my plan is to seek out and murder as many congresspeople as possible"; everyone goes in thinking "wouldn't it be cool if there were shooting and I had to shoot too". At that point, all you need is one incident for the whole thing to kick off. Imagine that they had been able to get in the window that gave access to where congress members actually were and where that woman was shot. They would have gotten inside, someone would have punched a staffer, everyone would have felt that they had "permission" and people would have been beaten to death.

And that "permission" would have echoed around the country and there would have been actively murderous attacks on statehouses and any government office that had annoyed a MAGA across the US.

This is not rocket science. It's a fact of protests generally - people are held back by their beliefs about what they can do, and once it's shown that a thing is possible there's a surge toward it. This is why left-wing protests are so aggressively policed and people are beaten and jailed for trivial infractions. It's also why protests can spread around the country even in unlikely places after a big precipitating event.

For this reason I don't believe that the cops were in any way innocent. If I were, god forbid, a cop, I would immediately think "what is the easiest way to prevent this from going to shit? Ah, it is to prevent the buildup of momentum in the first place". That's what they always do. They didn't do it this time because they wanted congress to get what was coming to them. Opening the gate or not opening the gate, whatever; it's the failure of the most obvious forward planning that's the key.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on January 7 [182 favorites]


The cops' response reminds me of that video awhile back of cops letting a suspect in a triple murder yackety-sax around nude

(the guy was white, of course)
posted by BungaDunga at 8:32 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I dunno, I've been saying for years that the military always slowly sends its tactics back home to be used on the American populace

Right well it's been a specific and deliberate policy to apply military-like tactical training to normal run of the mill bog standard police and law enforcement since the 60s, ever since it was realized that protests can and do work, but that the jails don't have the capacity to house a majority of protestors. So it's not by accident, it's by design, that the police have become militarized.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:33 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


The Guardian.com: Donald Trump suspended from Facebook indefinitely, says Mark Zuckerberg.

In a post to Facebook on Thursday Zuckerberg said the suspension will last much longer. “The shocking events of the last 24 hours clearly demonstrate that President Donald Trump intends to use his remaining time in office to undermine the peaceful and lawful transition of power to his elected successor, Joe Biden,” Facebook’s CEO wrote.

“We believe the risks of allowing the President to continue to use our service during this period are simply too great. Therefore, we are extending the block we have placed on his Facebook and Instagram accounts indefinitely and for at least the next two weeks until the peaceful transition of power is complete.”

posted by soundguy99 at 8:33 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


That Business Insider report with leaks from American intel allies is damning stuff. People like to make fun of the French but I know their security and counterterror programs are top-notch and pretty widely respected.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:33 AM on January 7 [51 favorites]


As to there being "no plan": that's the whole deal with stochastic terrorism. No one goes in saying, "my plan is to seek out and murder as many congresspeople as possible"; everyone goes in thinking "wouldn't it be cool if there were shooting and I had to shoot too".

Lin Wood was calling for Pence to be executed for weeks; the woman shot and killed was a big fan of his. Whether she herself planned anything, I don't know, but the guy who broke into the chambers with a bundle of zip-ties certainly had some sort of plan.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:34 AM on January 7 [59 favorites]


"The White House announces that the president has withdrawn Chad Wolf's nomination to be the permanent Homeland Security secretary, hours after Wolf urged the president to denounce yesterday's violence." -- Chris Megerian, LA Times
posted by valkane at 8:35 AM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Given that we seem to be back in megathread mode and the mods are once again stepping up so that we can have this sanity oasis, please consider funding MeFi if you don't already (or giving more if you can).
posted by saturday_morning at 8:35 AM on January 7 [60 favorites]


Instagram has gotten into the action with FaceBook: Facebook, Instagram ban Trump through at least Inauguration Day (Ars Technica)
posted by rambling wanderlust at 8:36 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


One thing that the attempted coup proved is that DC's strict gun laws are vitally important. Imagine if DC had open carry laws and most of the insurrectionists had been armed with AR-15s and the like.
posted by jedicus at 8:36 AM on January 7 [84 favorites]


Also, the only real impact of yesterday is that a pro forma process got pushed back 12 hours...

That's the short term impact. The long term impact will depend on whether all those responsible - politicians as well as rioters - are held to account or not.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:37 AM on January 7 [39 favorites]


Marcy Wheeler: The Trump Effect: Attempted Coup Edition
Yesterday’s coup attempt was not the implementation of any existing policy. What happened yesterday was unprecedented in the history of this nation.

That said, it did make certain things visible.

The DOD refusal to honor a request from Mayor Muriel Bowser, made before the coup attempt started, to deploy the National Guard to DC to help makes it clear (as did Trump and Bill Barr’s deployment of DOD troops over the summer) that DC cannot be left anymore without its own defense. As many people have noted, this provides a clear reason, independent of the number of Senators or the existence of a largely-Black city without full franchise, that DC should become a state.

Similarly, the refusal of DC cops, including Capitol Police, to treat these terrorists as terrorists demonstrates why people have called to “defund” the police. It’s not denial that we need police. It’s a recognition that, right now, police forces are often filled with extremists who sympathize with people like the terrorists who stormed the Capitol. There needs to be a priority on cleansing police forces of such extremists, or they will become an armed force working against democracy again.

Finally (in what appears to be a surprise to a guy who wrote a book on the topic and who has been dismissing the threat of a coup for months), what we saw yesterday was what happens when a man who puts self-interest over the good of the country happens to wield the power of the unitary executive. While some people appointed by Donald Trump took the appropriate approach in responding to the coup attempt — citing their oath to the Constitution — others dawdled until Mike Pence took action. It will take some time until we understand their excuse for protecting a man rather than the Constitution. But decades of claims that all authority emanates from the President certainly made it more likely. Last night made it clear that such unchecked authority is incompatible with the Constitution.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:37 AM on January 7 [92 favorites]




so congress is shutting down and pence and the cabinet don't see any reason to invoke the 25th

if anything happens in the next 13 days, the whole system will be responsible for it, not just trump, and not just the republicans

we've left a traitor in the white house because we're afraid of what might be done by his followers

not good
posted by pyramid termite at 8:38 AM on January 7 [38 favorites]


Can anyone tell me when Warnock and Ossoff will be sworn in?
posted by arcolz at 8:38 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Trump's deplatforming spreads: The official Trump 2020 campaign merch website has been shut down by Shopify. (via).

Meanwhile Parler is his new home.
posted by at by at 8:39 AM on January 7 [35 favorites]


Repeating a question from the bottom of the old thread: Is there a reliable source for real-time info on what’s happening on the ground in DC today? Are the Trump supporters quietly going home now that Biden’s victory has been certified, or is more trouble brewing?
posted by Epixonti at 8:39 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


“We believe the risks of allowing the President to continue to use our service during this period are simply too great. Therefore, we are extending the block we have placed on his Facebook and Instagram accounts indefinitely and for at least the next two weeks until the peaceful transition of power is complete.”

We can't have a peaceful transition of power anymore because part of the transition of power was broken up by violence. That door is closed.
posted by turtlebackriding at 8:39 AM on January 7 [32 favorites]


Lin Wood was calling for Pence to be executed for weeks; the woman shot and killed was a big fan of his. Whether she herself planned anything, I don't know, but the guy who broke into the chambers with a bundle of zip-ties certainly had some sort of plan.

I mean, my general feeling is that in this instance these people don't "have a plan" at the level of "I am conscious that I have steps laid out in my brain whereby I will take hostages and murder people"; they just have a vague conscious thought of "wouldn't it be cool if I just absolutely had to zip tie someone". It's what allows them to proceed as normal with the whole "I have three hour parking and the day off from work" thing. If they were actually thinking "I have a floor plan here and starting at point A I am going to proceed to point B where I will [do enough violence to get hostages] and make demands 1, 2 and 3, ending with my get-away by method I", they wouldn't be able to square that with the whole "I'm going to DC for the day and this weekend I'm going out to the bar with no masks".

That's not to say that no one ever has a plan, but my sense of yesterday was that it wasn't planned so much as felt.
posted by Frowner at 8:39 AM on January 7 [38 favorites]


The Guardian.com: Donald Trump suspended from Facebook indefinitely, says Mark Zuckerberg.

I think Hank Green had the proper reaction to this.
Hank Green @hankgreen
Breaking: Zuckerberg finds out that both Houses of Congress are going to be controlled by Democrats and, like a good oligarch, immediately abandons his previous patron.
Zuck knows his only option to try and stop his company from being forcefully broken up is to bend which way the political winds blow.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:39 AM on January 7 [174 favorites]


Last year, I read most of Lawrence Roberts' Mayday 1971: A White House at War, a Revolt in the Streets, and the Untold History of America's Biggest Mass Arrest, about the 1971 May Day anti-war protests. Only "most" because while I thought Roberts did a decent enough job of situating race and whiteness within his story, the whiteness of it all grew too frustrating for this non-white reader, especially in contrast to this summer's BLM protests (and police, state, and federal responses to those). But reading how individual actors attempted to thread individual needles, and how the D.C. police in particular strategized and planned beforehand--and what documentary evidence there was about both the formal and informal guidelines--was interesting to me, and I was thinking about it yesterday. Obviously, we're at other levels of police militarization since the 1970s, as well as a different racial playing field re: protests, but! Like, re: yesterday's attack, were there; even any beforehand briefings about preparations of any kind, even regarding counter-protesters? Or do they just assume their white supremacist hearts will guide them in their usual white supremacist direction, and that's guideline enough?
posted by mixedmetaphors at 8:39 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


I lived in DC eight years. As to the license plates, the point is not there are a lot of false positives, the point is that if someone is arrested and says they weren't even in DC that day, you would be able to provide prosecutors evidence.
I propose a coordinated plan of going through the videos, making snapshots of clear pictures of protesters (with emphasis on those who trespassed or committed other crimes) and indexing those photos.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:40 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Update: my cousin walked right out of the Capitol building last night. I let the FBI know about him this morning.
posted by all about eevee at 8:40 AM on January 7 [314 favorites]


The response of Twitter, FB and Instagram only now is among the most cynical acts I've seen from these media companies.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:41 AM on January 7 [74 favorites]


That FBI tip list better be starting an investigation of not just the people on the ground, but also:

-Opinion leaders at Fox News, were they tipped that a coup attempt was forming. Did they then support that through action or omission.
-The election boards contacted by team trump prior to the coup attempt.
-The legal support teams with Trump on those calls.
-All congressional aides of congresspersons objecting to the votes and spreading misinformation to material support the coup.
-the entire cabinet and their staffs.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:42 AM on January 7 [34 favorites]


Tim Kaine @timkaine
The sun is up on a new day. But there must be accountability for yesterday:
The Cabinet should invoke the 25th Amendment against Trump. If he wants to challenge, Congress should vote him out.
Congress should inform Trump that he is not welcome at the inauguration.
10:31 AM · Jan 7, 2021·
posted by bluesky43 at 8:42 AM on January 7 [40 favorites]


the point is that if someone is arrested and says they weren't even in DC that day, you would be able to provide prosecutors evidence...I propose a coordinated plan of going through the videos, making snapshots of clear pictures of protesters (with emphasis on those who trespassed or committed other crimes) and indexing those photos.

yep. plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, and twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one is to be used as evidence against the fuckers.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:43 AM on January 7 [32 favorites]


The Cabinet should invoke the 25th Amendment against Trump. If he wants to challenge, Congress should vote him out.

Wow Tim if only you were PART OF A LEGISLATIVE BODY THAT CAN ALSO DO THAT
posted by saturday_morning at 8:44 AM on January 7 [25 favorites]


"Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer is calling for Trump to be immediately removed from office.

He says the 25th amendment should be invoked. "If the Vice President and the Cabinet refuse to stand up, Congress should reconvene to impeach the president."" -- Kyle Griffin
posted by valkane at 8:44 AM on January 7 [22 favorites]


@SenSchumer
Statement Calling for the President to Be Immediately Removed from Office
posted by bluesky43 at 8:45 AM on January 7 [25 favorites]


Wow Tim if only you were PART OF A LEGISLATIVE BODY THAT CAN ALSO DO THAT

Tim Kaine is a Senator, so no he can't do that. The House draws up Articles of Impeachment.

And surely he'd vote for impeachment if it came to the Senate.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:46 AM on January 7 [39 favorites]


In response to the “felt, not planned,” I posted this in the last thread, “Just because they’re fucking incompetent doesn’t make it not a coup attempt.”
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:46 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


I'm worried the response to this isn't going to be law enforcement finally cracking down on Proud Boys/QAnon/whoever, but that the US Capitol will be permanently barricaded and closed to the public.
posted by thecjm at 8:48 AM on January 7 [34 favorites]


The FBI is seeking to identify individuals instigating violence in Washington, D.C.

"Oh forsooth if only we had more than a few hours to respond and apprehend the people who were intruding upon the Capitol grounds and posting their self portraits on Parler under their real names."

If anything this is an indictment of the racist power structures unwilling to subject right wing white citizenry to any sort of accountability, little alone monitoring. Ever since Ruby Ridge and Waco they've been fucking milking it to let the right wingers run wild. If these insurrectionists were black leftists they'd have CONITELPRO files knowing what each one of them had for breakfast that fucking morning.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:48 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Have disbarment proceedings (at the very least) begun against Giuliani over this? He was Trump's warmup act yesterday, exhorting the crowd to launch a coup.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:49 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Tim Kaine is a Senator, so no he can't do that. The House draws up Articles of Impeachment.

And surely he'd vote for impeachment if it came to the Senate.


I know, but if Senators push for it, it will happen. I am pleasantly surprised to see Schumer working on it so I feel like it's not too much to ask for Kaine to do the same.
posted by saturday_morning at 8:50 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Also if you're waking up kind of rattled, it's okay to just sit and think that was some fucked up shit. It was! It was weird shit and I don't think many of us as Americans are prepared for that kind of thing, exception being refugees and immigrants from places that have had coups. It's okay to just sit and process and not have jokes and memes or glib remarks ready. (When I went to bed I told my wife to wake me up if They were Here and we needed to defend ourselves and I wasn't joking).
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:50 AM on January 7 [32 favorites]


Or one might ask whether it was a failure of advance planning or exactly what was planned by higher ups: let the insurrectionists in. Let's make sure the world sees it happening. The capital police are federal law enforcement officers reporting to Congress. The question I have is to whom do they report in Congress and did whoever that was try to organize additional help in advance? Why was the National Guard supposedly called out on the 5th, but didn't get there because the people at the top wouldn't authorize it?

There's not much DC or any other authority can do if the feds decide to let seditionists take the capital because that's what the president wants. We have some weak points in our institutions that need to be fixed.
posted by zenzenobia at 8:50 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Also, the only real impact of yesterday is that a pro forma process got pushed back 12 hours, and some politicians had their speeches carried live on CNN instead of just having them summarized later. I guess a few WH people put their two weeks notice in.

The coup attempted had extremely little impact on actually changing anything.


Except for now if we fail to take any harsh measures against the politicians involved in encouraging and fomenting this extremism, our government will show us to be an unreliable player on the world stage.

I understand that American exceptionalism was not a good thing and that Trump even being elected and the subsequent four years of BS already decimated it, but I think that failure to come down hard on the instigators of this failed coup would make the US even less reliable and relevant.
Is this something our government is okay with or do they just plan on calling out the military to invade any time a foreign power does something we're not happy with?

(If it's not obvious, I have very limited knowledge of how international relations work between nations, this is my very simplistic take on it).
posted by newpotato at 8:51 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Tim Kaine is a Senator, so no he can't do that. The House draws up Articles of Impeachment.

OK, but Pelosi has already adjourned the House until after the inauguration.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:51 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


The VP along with the Cabinet can invoke the 25th Amendment, not Congress but the more pressure from Congress and the public the better. Contact your House and Senate congressional representatives.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:52 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


"The facial recognition company the Washington Times claims IDd Antifa members among Capitol insurrectionists says the paper's story is completely false. "I don’t know where the Wash. Times got that information.” Story was cited by Rep. Mat Gaetz." -- Craig Silverman, BuzzFeed
posted by valkane at 8:52 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]


Excuse me, but the leaked phone message from Giuliani where he said that if you can delay the certification for long enough that we can get state legislations to reverse the results, even though that is a psychotic delusion, says that those in the administration saw this as a coup.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:52 AM on January 7 [110 favorites]


Journalist @Gathara continues his brilliant descriptions of the US like American journalists cover the rest of the world: Traditional vote counting ceremony resumes in US parliament after police finally act to clear far-white, anti-math Christianist mob, which had stormed iconic building, a revered symbol of American division and corruption, at behest of dictator Donald "Papa Don" Trump.

#BREAKING With US despot Donald "Papa Don" Trump barred from favorite outlet for blowing off steam, his Twitter account, psychologists worry the famously impulsive ruler could resort to the more destructive avenues preferred by his predecessors, such as starting Middle East wars.
posted by TwoStride at 8:52 AM on January 7 [57 favorites]


Daniel Dale tweeted that "Less than two hours after Acting Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf issued a statement criticizing “some supporters of the President” for the Capitol violence and calling on Trump to “strongly condemn” it, Trump...withdrew Wolf’s nomination to be full Secretary."
posted by carmicha at 8:53 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


So maybe a dumb question, but if someone wanted to write to officials in support of invoking the 25th Amendment, who should they write to? Elected officials, including VP Pence, sure. But is there any point trying to reach out to cabinet members?
posted by blakewest at 8:53 AM on January 7


Parler needs to be shut down too, unless the FBI are using it to find out who participated in the coup. The nation isn't safe if Trump is using it to communicate to his violent supporters.
posted by cazoo at 8:53 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


is there any point trying to reach out to cabinet members?

Can't hurt?
posted by saturday_morning at 8:54 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


blakewest: You can text "25TH" to Resistbot (50409) to have it contact your elected officials about using the 25th Amendment. Not sure about Cabinet members.
posted by SansPoint at 8:54 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


This probably goes without saying, but if you haven't already, call your congressperson and demand / pointedly ask / insist that they either begin the steps toward impeachment or (if your member is an R) make a public statement on why Trump's call for sedition was not impeachable.

This doesn't happen in a vacuum. The media and senators calling for impeachment are only a visible part of a groundswell - the ground actually has to swell.
posted by Mchelly at 8:55 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


As House Was Breached, a Fear ‘We’d Have to Fight’ to Get Out (New York Times)

In a surreal scene of chaos and glee, hundreds of Trump loyalists roamed the halls, taking photos and breaking into offices. No police officers were in view. In a room where there were images of mountains and maps of Oregon on the wall, a man in a leather jacket ripped a scroll with Chinese characters. A young man put a framed picture of the Dalai Lama in his backpack.
...
An officer with the Capitol Police tried to reason with the crowd.

“You guys just need to go outside,” he said to a man in a green backpack. Asked why the police were not forcing the mob out, the officer said, “We just got to let them do their thing for now.”

Another officer stood by a stairway, watching everything unfold and answering a few questions, including directing a woman to the bathroom. One protester came up to him and shouted in his face, “Traitor!” When another man approached to apologize to the officer, the officer replied, “You’re fine.”
posted by rambling wanderlust at 8:56 AM on January 7 [36 favorites]


I cannot fathom there not being a “Madness of King George” playbook ready to go for this by the military at least. Lock him away quietly for 13 days, Pence is de facto president and nobody talks until later.

I of course would rather see him deposed and locked in a tiny cell, but someone had to have the foresight to predict this nutbag going off the rails.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:57 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


Just checked into the conspiracy world to see how they're reacting and I wish I hadn't...

The fact that cops let people in is being treated as evidence it was "planned" and a "false flag."

I just can't even with these insane motherfuckers anymore...
posted by deadaluspark at 8:58 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


If you want to put pressure on the government, contact your congressional representatives. Their congressional websites list both email and phone ways to contact them.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:58 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


"Our republic is in great danger, and it is imperiled further without swift action to protect it.

"The President incited an attack on Congress. He is deeply unstable. The Cabinet must invoke the 25th amendment.

"Congress must also pursue impeachment and removal of the President.

"Additionally, Congress must pass @RepCori’s resolution to investigate for sanction and expulsion any member of Congress who helped incite this attack on our nation." -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
posted by valkane at 8:58 AM on January 7 [108 favorites]


A stupid attempted coup is still an attempted coup.

We don't let people walk for attempted murder because they had a shitty plan and bad aim.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:58 AM on January 7 [161 favorites]


your elected officials about using the 25th Amendment

this is a bit silly, the only thing elected officials can do is impeach, and the House has adjourned for the next two weeks. Representatives writing letters to Mike Pence to ask him to please do their job for them is not going to cut it.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:58 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]




I dunno, I've been saying for years that the military always slowly sends its tactics back home to be used on the American populace. I'm not sure I should be so surprised that America essentially invaded itself.

This is a well known phenomenon from colonial days known as Foucault’s Boomerang, where, as you described, a nation’s tactics abroad are eventually used on citizens.

The use of those tactics or strategies could either be by the state itself or by the veterans who participated in those conflicts. No doubt we are seeing those on American streets today, especially in the context of the BLM protests last year.

I’d recommend everyone listen to It Could Happen Here, (trigger warning for depictions of violence and frighteningly realistic scenarios now actually underway) which provides sourced material on what civil war and collapse could look like in the US given our unique circumstances and the rather non-unique circumstances that come along with the decline of any country. The use of sourced material on recent conflicts and civil wars (Iraq, Syria, Ukraine and others) highlights how very possible a civil war is. And it was produced in 2019.
posted by glaucon at 9:00 AM on January 7 [29 favorites]


My representative in congress emailed this last night at 6:43pm:


Dear Friends,

Here are my thoughts on today:

Invoke the 25th Amendment.
Impeach.
Prosecute.


Onward,
Congressman Earl Blumenauer
Earl Blumenauer
Member of Congress


That was the whole message.

It was a pleasure to vote for him this year, and I look forward to doing it again.
posted by slagheap at 9:00 AM on January 7 [83 favorites]


I of course would rather see him deposed and locked in a tiny cell, but someone had to have the foresight to predict this nutbag going off the rails.

I maintain that he should be forced to work at a substandard (ie minimum) wage at a Dunkin' Donuts in a popular airport
posted by erattacorrige at 9:01 AM on January 7 [18 favorites]


The VP website does not have any contact information (but does link to a stupid fucking article written by Pence in June entitled "there isn't a coronvirus second wave")
posted by bluesky43 at 9:01 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


ATTEMPTED coup. Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for ATTEMPTED chemistry, do they?
posted by saturday_morning at 9:01 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Any chance that the lawyer who just withdrew from the Trump team because "client has used the lawyer’s services to perpetrate a crime and the client insists upon taking action that the lawyer considers repugnant" is the same Jerome M. Marcus from Philly who was deep into the effort to impeach Clinton?
posted by clawsoon at 9:02 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


The bad news is that Trump is the leader of an insurrectionist terror group that will infect the US for years to come. The good news is that I don't think he can just go back to being a rich asshole anymore.
posted by theodolite at 9:04 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Just want to point out that every pro-Trump LE in the city now knows how soon intervention will arrive from Maryland and Virginia and that DoD isn't going to lift a finger against an attempt.

I think democracy may actually have died yesterday and we just don't fully realize it yet.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:04 AM on January 7 [32 favorites]


Oh, I see if I'd read the entire thread properly I would have read the story Ghostride The Whip posted - That Business Insider report with leaks from American intel allies is damning stuff. People like to make fun of the French but I know their security and counterterror programs are top-notch and pretty widely respected.

Thanks, Ghostride. Scary stuff.
posted by zenzenobia at 9:05 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


ATTEMPTED coup. Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for ATTEMPTED chemistry, do they?

No, but they do give jail time for ATTEMPTED murder.
posted by duoshao at 9:05 AM on January 7 [37 favorites]


Also, the only real impact of yesterday is that a pro forma process got pushed back 12 hours,

No, the real impact is that the fascists learned their tactics wii work. They can have free reign of the capital whenever they want. So what about the next time they try this? What if they bring Molotov cocktails and assault rifles next time?

I don't think it can be understated gotta dangerous this was, and how bad security was. The only reason we have a living Congress right now is the insurrectionists were disorganized and incompetent. A group of better trained terrorists could have moved quickly enough to capture and massacre members of Congress before anything was done to stop them.

And next time, that's exactly what they'll do.
posted by happyroach at 9:08 AM on January 7 [78 favorites]


Does the 25th really need to be invoked to remove the leader of an attempted coup? Seems like that should result in swift police action against him, not some parliamentary jiu-jitsu. I know, I know...Police action by whom? Certainly not the DoJ.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:09 AM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Just want to point out that every pro-Trump LE in the city now knows how soon intervention will arrive from Maryland and Virginia and that DoD isn't going to lift a finger against an attempt.

For whatever little it's worth, DC is currently under an official state of emergency for the next thirty days, which means the DC National Guard will stay mobilized until then.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:10 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


I dunno, I've been saying for years that the military always slowly sends its tactics back home to be used on the American populace. I'm not sure I should be so surprised that America essentially invaded itself.

I mean, this would explain a lot of our progress militarily in my lifetime, but if our invasion tactics involved this much casual-shuffling of indoctrinated goons through barely guarded places I have to wonder where all the deaths come from.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:11 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Can the DC police walk in to the White House and arrest the president? (Inciting a riot). I realize that police are often pro-Trump, but still they have pressures answerable to DC.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:11 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I mean, this would explain a lot of our progress militarily in my lifetime, but if our invasion tactics involved this much casual-shuffling of indoctrinated goons through barely guarded places I have to wonder where all the deaths come from.

I dunno, sure sounds like Blackwater/Xe Services/Academi mercenaries to me.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:12 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


The Nazis brought zip ties and went looking for the members of Congress. It doesn't seem like a stretch to assume their plan was to take hostages and/or destroy the electoral college votes. And although it'd be easier to do that without a ridiculous mob, having enough numbers that the police have plausible deniability about being overwhelmed or distracted is also handy. The coup didn't work, but it was a step up from the attempt to kidnap Whitmer - they're escalating.
posted by harriet vane at 9:13 AM on January 7 [75 favorites]


OK remember Buffalo dude who was presiding at one point?

He's responding to Lin Wood on Twitter basically identifying and incriminating himself.

The impunity is just the most frustrating part.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:13 AM on January 7 [27 favorites]


ATTEMPTED coup. Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for ATTEMPTED chemistry, do they?

If you're not going to prosecute attempted coups, then you won't be prosecuting any coups, will you? Because the coups will have succeeded.
posted by Jess the Mess at 9:13 AM on January 7 [105 favorites]


No, the real impact is that the fascists learned their tactics wii work. They can have free reign of the capital whenever they want. So what about the next time they try this? What if they bring Molotov cocktails and assault rifles next time?

Then Pelosi/Schumer set up shop at the Denny’s down by the freeway and run their part of the government from there.

I get that the optics of invaders in Capitol Building is very bad, but at the practical level, the part that affects the actual mechanizations of the US Federal Government, it doesn’t matter that much. You don’t get to be Speaker of the House because you happen to be holding a specific gavel at a certain point in time.
posted by sideshow at 9:14 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Considering the response to BLM last summer, the reason this succeeded has everything to do with federal preparation (lack of) and response (late) because the insurrection was staged by the very person who can prevent the use of these resources.

So calls for DC to be a state, or some other ability, like have its own National Guard, is, to me, the major effort with regards to keeping the capital secured.
posted by linux at 9:14 AM on January 7 [15 favorites]


The impunity is just the most frustrating part.

No, the most frustrating part is he will learn jack shit from being thrown under the bus by his compatriots. He will not become a better person. He will just become more angry and bitter.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:14 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Thank you harriet vane. I thought I was going batty in remembering that the suspected plan was to kidnap members of congress. They want show trials and executions.
posted by flamk at 9:16 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


"OH MY GOD the guy who ransacked Pelosi’s office got a PPP loan! You seriously cannot even make this shit up." -- Kate Kelly, Juris Doctor
posted by valkane at 9:16 AM on January 7 [58 favorites]


I imagine the difficulty there, dances, would be finding a time when the bastard was in that office.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:16 AM on January 7


They want show trials and executions.

So does Trump. That's the worst thing about all of this. Trump is literally exactly who they wish they could be. They want to be a shitty, absolute cretin with absolute power.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:16 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Those interested in Foucault's Boomerang, mentioned by glaucon above, might want to read Stephen Graham's excellent Cities Under Siege: The New Military Urbanism. I think it is the book that first and best popularised and expanded Foucault's theory.

Of course, as we have just seen, the militarisation of western urban spaces, a very real phenomenon, can be and is selectively applied. American cities are the new war zones, flooded with equipment and tactics honed in, inter alia Iraq and Afghanistan... except when actual insurrectionaries attack the Capitol.
posted by deeker at 9:17 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Intentions matter.

ZIP. TIES.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:18 AM on January 7 [138 favorites]


By my comment about National Guard, I meant that DC have control of it. Not the president, which is how it is now.
posted by linux at 9:19 AM on January 7


They were wearing shirts emblazoned with "CIVIL WAR 1/6"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:19 AM on January 7 [83 favorites]


The impunity is just the most frustrating part.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:13 AM on January 7


The rioters have simply learned from their seditious leader that nothing they do will have consequences.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:20 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


They were wearing shirts emblazoned with "CIVIL WAR 1/6"

But sure, let's quibble with some bullshit like "intentions matter."
posted by deadaluspark at 9:20 AM on January 7 [52 favorites]


Intentions matter. A coup implies it was planned as a takeover which it clearly wasn't.

We have photographic evidence of armed men carrying restraints, on top of the literally millions of messages on social media. What on Earth more do you need?!
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:21 AM on January 7 [86 favorites]


ATTEMPTED coup. Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for ATTEMPTED chemistry, do they?

No, but they do give jail time for ATTEMPTED murder.

If you're not going to prosecute attempted coups, then you won't be prosecuting any coups, will you? Because the coups will have succeeded.


It was a Simpsons reference. The character being quoted, like the mobsters yesterday, fully deserved his imprisonment. Should've labeled better, apologies.

posted by saturday_morning at 9:21 AM on January 7 [31 favorites]


I was told by an officer I spoke to that they didn't arrest most of the people leaving the Capitol because they were trying to secure the scene and they were overwhelmed by them and a little frightened of them.
posted by all about eevee at 9:22 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]




and a little frightened of them.

THEN GO GET A NEW JOB YOU FUCKING WUSS OF A COP. NO RIGHT TO BE A FUCKING COP IF THESE ASSHATS SCARED YOU.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:22 AM on January 7 [28 favorites]


I'm seeing a blurb on the Washington Post that Trump called into an RNC meeting this morning and was cheered - can't seem to access an article, though
posted by Mchelly at 9:22 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Intentions do matter. They intended to have a coup. That's why they had zip ties and custom t-shirts.
posted by SansPoint at 9:22 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]


I thought if a cop is frightened he gets to do free murders
posted by Countess Elena at 9:23 AM on January 7 [166 favorites]


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez @AOC

Articles of impeachment have already been drafted and are ready for introduction. They were prepared and finalized by @IlhanMN while she was extracted in a secure location, and members are signing on.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:24 AM on January 7 [105 favorites]


I'm seeing a blurb on the Washington Post that Trump called into an RNC meeting this morning and was cheered - can't seem to access an article, though

Text from the liveblog:
Trump briefly called in to the Republican National Committee’s winter meeting Thursday morning — and received a loud and overwhelmingly enthusiastic reception when RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel put him on speakerphone, according to people in the room.

“We love you!” some in the room yelled.

Addressing RNC members by phone as they held a private, members-only breakfast at the Ritz-Carlton on Amelia Island in Florida, Trump said he had heard that the news media had falsely reported he would not be speaking. He told the RNC members he wanted to speak, was sorry to miss the event and looked forward to seeing them in person.

Trump made no mention of Wednesday’s violence at the U.S. Capitol, according to the people present, who were not authorized to speak publicly about the president’s remarks. Trump had originally intended to deliver a longer speech but is not scheduled to address the event Thursday night.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:24 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Is it me, or is the removal train gathering steam now?
posted by vitout at 9:24 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


NO RIGHT TO BE A FUCKING COP IF THESE ASSHATS SCARED YOU.

This should be the case but SCOTUS has held time and time again that the cops are under no obligation to render assistance.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:24 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]




@ jdawsey1 (WaPo reporter): "Trump called into private breakfast of members of RNC this AM in Florida. Was put on speaker and received a loud & overwhelmingly enthusiastic reaction, per people in room. Spoke briefly to say hi & sorry to miss it. “One minute.” No discussion of yesterday. No speech tonight."
posted by gwint at 9:25 AM on January 7


Nobody saw this coming except for airline flight crews, who moved to hotels out of town ahead of the 6th.

The AFA-CWA is also calling for a flight ban for anyone that participated in the riots yesterday.

American Airlines declares a ban on alcohol on all flights in/out of DC after a day of rowdy passengers making trouble as they flew in.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:25 AM on January 7 [68 favorites]


they were overwhelmed by them and a little frightened of them

They scare the shit out of me! Half of them look like they just stepped off of a Mad Max set and the other half look like they're headed to a Sons of Anarchy audition!
posted by valkane at 9:25 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


American Airlines declares a ban on alcohol on all flights in/out of DC after a day of rowdy passengers making trouble as they flew in.

I said yesterday half of them looked fucking loaded. This could have been so much worse with all these boozed up fucking morons.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:26 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]




We have photographic evidence of armed men carrying restraints, on top of the literally millions of messages on social media. What on Earth more do you need?!



I'd need evidence that they performed what a "coup" implies once they were inside the building, not just stroll around and wreck shit and take photos, then quietly walk out.

Call it what you want. This isn't worth arguing about. I think we're all on the same page here.
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:26 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


All of civil society, unions, corporations, organizations etc need to follow AFA-CWA and take q stand against this coup.
posted by flamk at 9:28 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


> They scare the shit out of me! Half of them look like they just stepped off of a Mad Max set and the other half look like they're headed to a Sons of Anarchy audition!

yes but also a lot of them looked like what you get when you generate a character using random settings.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:28 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


White House correspondent Hunter Walker says that the big difference between the BLM response and this one has nothing to do with Capitol Police, it's because Trump did not call on federal forces.

Metropolitan police forces aren't supposed to be militarized. It's a good thing that they can't handle armed insurrectionists. The national guard was deliberately not called in by the Trump Administration because he wanted the capitol to be overrun.

I'd need evidence that they performed what a "coup" implies once they were inside the building, not just stroll around and wreck shit and take photos, then quietly walk out.

...because their targets were successfully evacuated, apparently in the nick of time, and no one was there.
posted by muddgirl at 9:30 AM on January 7 [93 favorites]


I think if the vibe had been right many of them would have been happy to kidnap and execute politicians.
posted by little onion at 9:30 AM on January 7 [25 favorites]


AFA-CWA and take q stand against this coup.

This typo and how it made me read the sentence makes me want to start calling this a "Qoup."
posted by deadaluspark at 9:32 AM on January 7 [21 favorites]


erattacorrige,

"I maintain that he should be forced to work at a substandard (ie minimum) wage at a Dunkin' Donuts in a popular airport."

What have you got against Dunkin Donuts? The only way this could be remotely fair would be if the franchise owner and all the employees were Trump supporters.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:32 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Watching all the White House resignations today is extra galling. Gee, only after yesterday did they realize how poisonous their boss was! If they're running for the exits with two weeks left they have earned extra loathing.
posted by PhineasGage at 9:33 AM on January 7 [28 favorites]


Articles of impeachment have already been drafted and are ready for introduction. They were prepared and finalized by @IlhanMN while she was extracted in a secure location, and members are signing on.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does "signing on" mean in this context? What's the timeframe for this translating into an actual impeachment vote?

I see some comments upthread about Congress supposedly taking a "two-week recess", but I'm not sure what the source of that information is, and the official House and Senate websites seem to contradict it.

house.gov: 03:48 AM The Speaker announced that the House do now adjourn pursuant to section 5(a)1(b) of H. Res. 8. The next meeting is scheduled for 11:00 a.m. on January 11, 2021.
senate.gov: Friday, Jan 08, 2021 10:00 a.m.: Convene for a pro forma session.
posted by teraflop at 9:33 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Out of curiosity, why is the FBI asking for tips? Supposing they have huge amounts of CCTV, cell-tower data, selfies, tik-toks, etc, is asking for tips just more, supplemental info/intel, or is it of fundamental importance in their investigation?
Are all the Emily from Knoxvilles in real hot water?
posted by os tuberoes at 9:34 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I'd need evidence that they performed what a "coup" implies once they were inside the building, not just stroll around and wreck shit and take photos, then quietly walk out.

IEDs and Molotov Cocktails aren't enough for you? Did they actually have to hold hostages or execute someone for it to be a coup attempt?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 9:34 AM on January 7 [67 favorites]


The cops were taking selfies with the terrorists. I think it’s pretty clear that the mob wouldn’t have gotten as far as they did if the sympathies of the cops weren’t mostly with them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:34 AM on January 7 [26 favorites]


I'd need evidence that they performed what a "coup" implies once they were inside the building, not just stroll around and wreck shit and take photos, then quietly walk out.

This was an attempted coup, and we should be crystal clear about this fact.

Pipe bombs and Molotov cocktails were left at the building. Some terrorists brought zip ties with them, as mentioned before.

This wasn't a "stroll" around the building: These terrorists intended to hurt, maim, and kill elected officials, for the purposes of overthrowing the government.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:35 AM on January 7 [52 favorites]


I seriously don’t think there will be any removal of Trump before the inauguration.

Article 25 requires a majority of the Cabinet, which is a risible idea when you consider the people on Trump’s Cabinet. They’re terrible people to begin with, chosen because of their willingness to support Trump and his unethical behavior. They’re not going to stick their necks out to alienate their social and professional networks and sign up for death threats for themselves and their families just so they can shorten Trump’s tenure by twelve days. It’s just not a realistic expectation.

Similarly, there’s no way he’ll be impeached and removed from office before Inauguration. The House could impeach him again, probably. But 2/3 of the Senate is not going to vote to convict. Again, no Republican is going to sign up for the consequences of a conviction vote just to get Trump out of office now, when he’s gone on the 20th.

I’d love to see it happen, but I think it’s a pipe dream.

Still, I do hold out hope for some kind of state-level prosecution. But if that just results in a fine, I’m reminded that he’s now sitting on a half a billion dollars of new donations to his PAC since he lost the race. Wish I had confidence of anything more resulting from all this, because he surely deserves it.
posted by darkstar at 9:35 AM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Question I had from the last thread:

At this point, these people are all tainted anyway, might as well hold on or at least try to save your reputation by being part of invoking the 25th.

So just checking, the rats are abandoning the sinking ship/Cabinet members are quitting so they won't get forced into 25th-ing, right?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:36 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


I said yesterday half of them looked fucking loaded. This could have been so much worse with all these boozed up fucking morons.

From personal experience, alcoholism is not an uncommon comorbidity with MAGAism. This is not to say anything judgemental about people struggling with alcoholism or imply that one leads to the other but there is a lot to latch onto in full-on Q-crazy Trumpism for people whose alcohol troubles manifest as abusive behavior and paranoia if they're already inclined to right-wing thinking.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:36 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


I won't lie, I hate that they let people leave the city because now they have all kinds of opportunity to try to prove they weren't actually there, and a court has to prove within a shadow of a doubt that they were there.

Arresting them on the day of the crime allows there to be a record of them being there and committing the crime.

This is all a big fucking joke.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:36 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Tre Ward @TreWardWBAL
NEW: A Maryland company has terminated one of its employees after he was apparently captured in a picture during the mob riot in the Capitol yesterday.

The guy wore his WORK IDENTIFICATION BADGE while committing treason FFS.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:36 AM on January 7 [86 favorites]


THEN GO GET A NEW JOB YOU FUCKING WUSS OF A COP. NO RIGHT TO BE A FUCKING COP IF THESE ASSHATS SCARED YOU.

I mean, they could have just shot all the people who came into the Capitol Building. Somehow I think that wouldn’t go over too well here on ol’ MetaFilter.com.
posted by sideshow at 9:38 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Are all the Emily from Knoxvilles in real hot water?

I didn't realize until I read your comment that it was probably her actual real name and hometown that she gave, on video, while criming on video, because she is a dumbass.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:38 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


White House correspondent Hunter Walker says that the big difference between the BLM response and this one has nothing to do with Capitol Police, it's because Trump did not call on federal forces.

DC MPD spent all summer tear-gassing, beating + kettling people at BLM-related protests, FWIW, as well as threatening and arresting journalists.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:39 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]




Somehow I think that wouldn’t go over too well here on ol’ MetaFilter.com.

oh no that would have been wrong and bad and I definitely didn't wish they'd done it in the secret black places of my heart
posted by Countess Elena at 9:40 AM on January 7 [12 favorites]


The cops were taking selfies with the terrorists. I think it’s pretty clear that the mob wouldn’t have gotten as far as they did if the sympathies of the cops weren’t mostly with them.

Yes and prior to that cops defended the doors so the congress could escape and shot a rioter. Cops were also defending the gates until they were overrun. Everyone links to the video of cops opening the gates, what I see is dozens of traitors and like 5 cops. Again this summer the capitol was literally lined with
Federal forces at the order of Donald Trump. There is only one reason he chose not to do that again.
posted by muddgirl at 9:40 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


occupation of legislative buildings is a valid tactic. and in general, occupation of secured facilities is a valid tactic — one that we used to great effect at the start of the trump maladministration, when we took and held the airports.

the moral problem here is not the tactics used by the coup supporters. the moral problem is their politics.


zipties tho?
posted by saturday_morning at 9:41 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]




If you saw the video of the Metropolitan PD at night, they were not taking any shit from the protesters/rioters that were violating curfew. As one Twitter comment put it, “The night shift run different”. There was a very different vibe and tactics from how the Capitol Police treated the situation in the day. The MPD footage looked very much like how BLM were treated.
posted by darkstar at 9:44 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Trump is going to Camp David this weekend. The chuds on Twitter seem to think this means something, per code words and biblical exegesis. It is odd that he doesn't go to Florida.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on January 7


the problem was that they had no plan whatsoever for what to do once they got control of the building

I thought there was at least one group trying to get a hold of the certified ballots and get them out of the building and/or destroy them.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:44 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


[Couple commens deleted. We don't need "here's my hot take" contrarian defenses of anything these shitheads got up to. RNTP take a walk for a while.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:45 AM on January 7 [18 favorites]


occupation of legislative buildings is a valid tactic. and in general, occupation of secured facilities is a valid tactic — one that we used to great effect at the start of the trump maladministration, when we took and held the airports.

Yes - Wisconsin had the big protests and occupation of state capitol building back in 2011 over the Act 10 legislation. Here's a quick look at how that was and wasn't similar to yesterday.
But Steineke’s depiction of the threatening atmosphere around the Act 10 protests does not match the memories of legislative Democrats who joined in the rallies, standing with workers objecting to a law that rolled back their rights and curtailed their livelihoods and who felt safe enough to bring their kids. Former Gov. Scott Walker had stated that the goal was to “drop the bomb,” and pass a budget repair bill before anyone could object without workers at the table and without time for feedback. The purpose of the protesters was to slow that down and get the word out about what was happening.

There was civil disobedience, but not violence or gunshots. The windows were used by Democratic legislators who moved their desks outside to hold office hours or let constituents and others in because they were not permitted to enter the building.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:45 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


The MPD footage looked very much like how BLM were treated.

I watched that same footage, and while I saw some legitimate beatdowns, I didn't see a ton of people leaving missing eyes because they were shot point-blank in the face with rubber bullets, and I didn't see copious amounts of teargas, and well, the lack of arrests tells the rest of the fucking story.

Give me a break with this apologist bullshit. Nowhere near as bad as BLM was treated.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:46 AM on January 7 [60 favorites]


Mefi headlines are wrong. Check the 1954 history from shooting on the house floor from wiki.
posted by brent at 9:46 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Did you see the video them walking single file down the row of ropes like ghastly tourists? Those fools were strolling.

In that video, yes, but there's countless others out there of violent aggressive behavior plus the statements of the congresspeople inside themselves, so... maybe not just strolling?
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 9:46 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Those interested in Foucault's Boomerang, mentioned by glaucon above, might want to read Stephen Graham's excellent Cities Under Siege: The New Military Urbanism. I think it is the book that first and best popularised and expanded Foucault's theory

Interesting note: I looked this up and on amazon at least, there is a warning: title under review; and the item is NOT available for purchase.

curious
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:46 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Re: Members turning in their resignations. I seriously wonder if it’s not so much to avoid having to deal with the 25th issue as it is realizing that being involved with an organization encouraging sedition might lead to some serious repercussions down the road.
posted by gtrwolf at 9:46 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


were they violent?

More than a dozen police were injured. They broke windows and vandalized offices which is violence according to the right wing, maybe that only counts if it's a Target store.

Again let's be clear. When the insurrectionists reached the capitol rooms where the Senate and house were convening, luckily everyone had been evacuated. There was no violence against congresspersons because *they weren't there.* After they broke in and found no one, the insurrectionists roamed the capitol building looking for them, including checking offices for them. It is a staggering gesture of good faith to think they were just strolling around.
posted by muddgirl at 9:47 AM on January 7 [147 favorites]


Give me a break with this apologist bullshit.

“Apologist”?

No.
posted by darkstar at 9:47 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


it was probably her actual real name and hometown that she gave, on video, while criming on video, because she is a dumbass she is a white person who has always had reason to believe that the police exist to help her and protect her.
posted by jesourie at 9:47 AM on January 7 [54 favorites]


So like... is there an official position on who counts as a Cabinet secretary for 25th-ing purposes? The amendment is wonderfully vague ("majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide"). Google is no help.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:48 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


White House correspondent Hunter Walker says that the big difference between the BLM response and this one has nothing to do with Capitol Police, it's because Trump did not call on federal forces.

Metropolitan police forces aren't supposed to be militarized. It's a good thing that they can't handle armed insurrectionists. The national guard was deliberately not called in by the Trump Administration because he wanted the capitol to be overrun.


So much this. I know there is a tendency to act like the worst case is inevitable in these threads, it's why I had to take a long break from Metafilter last year and I'm getting a little iffy about following things right now... but yesterday was largely - not entirely, but largely - a failure of logistics because DC security relies so heavily on the executive branch. Even all of the right wing nutjobs planning all of this in the open for so long, the Capitol Police are going to rely on federal agencies for a lot of intelligence sharing.

I think there are going to be some very serious, long overdue overhauls to the entire security situation. It's similar to worries I've long had about how the Marshals are technically under DOJ even though they nominally work for the judiciary - in an ideal world the branches should not have security services with the built in culture of having to defend against or at least act in opposition to their counterparts in the other branches in case other security services are subverted for nefarious purposes, but that's not our world.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:48 AM on January 7 [22 favorites]


"A 70-year-old man from Alabama was arrested near the Capitol yesterday with a firearm and Molotov cocktail materials. He wasn’t radicalized by Antifa. He was radicalized by irresponsible, racist, fear-mongering politicians like Mo Brooks. And even that didn’t make Mo Brooks stop." -- Robyn Hammontree
posted by valkane at 9:50 AM on January 7 [35 favorites]


Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle."

People are overthinking this. There was obviously no plan behind the mob rush. They just wandered around, stole shit, vandalized, and took pictures of themselves. They didn't even know if they'd get inside and didn't know what do to when they got there.
If this were any sort of planned coup they would've been even more heavily armed and organized and moved into overtaking and holding the building, making demands, etc etc.
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:11 AM on January 7 [9 favorites +] [!]
''

Exactly the level of sophistication to be expected from Trump Coup™.
posted by HyperBlue at 9:51 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Wikipedia has a list of the fifteen cabinet members who can make a 25th-amendment declaration.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:51 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


The MPD footage looked very much like how BLM were treated.

MPD arrested something like a tenth as many people last night as they did when they gassed people on Pennsylvania Ave. On top of that, some of the people arrested last night were likely DC residents who are essential workers, and got caught up going to or leaving their homes. Oh, and then there's the matter of MPD admitting that they had "no intelligence that there would be a breach of the U.S. Capitol", which is either a CYA or incompetence, either of which should end up with everybody involved out of a job.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:53 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]


"Sen. Cruz, you must accept responsibility for how your craven, self-serving actions contributed to the deaths of four people yesterday. And how you fundraised off this riot.

Both you and Senator Hawley must resign. If you do not, the Senate should move for your expulsion." -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
posted by valkane at 9:53 AM on January 7 [130 favorites]


I thought it was pretty interesting how in the photos of the House doors being protected (CNN), the regular uniformed cops were doing jack shit while the plain clothes officers (which I assume were not police) were the one's with guns drawn and guiding the staff out.

There was also that video where the cops are keeping the doors open inside of the Capitol for the terrorists to come through, nodding and waving them in happily as they passed what looked like the metal detector area. Sadly I can't seem to find a link to that one.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 9:53 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


I thought there was at least one group trying to get a hold of the certified ballots and get them out of the building and/or destroy them.

One of many reasons that there are at least four official copies of said ballots, sent to different places.

They can't pull a Mac, "Hah! I ate the contract, so it's no longer valid!" maneuver.
posted by delfin at 9:53 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


I think if the vibe had been right some of them would have been happy to kidnap and execute politicians.

It's interesting how many critical moments in history have turned on the vibe. Especially in coups, there's always a series of moments when people read the room, read the mood of the generals and other power brokers, try to read each other without revealing too much until they know which way the vibe is headed.
posted by clawsoon at 9:54 AM on January 7 [18 favorites]


So like... is there an official position on who counts as a Cabinet secretary for 25th-ing purposes? The amendment is wonderfully vague ("majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide"). Google is no help.

5 USC 101 is the list of executive departments as Congress has by law provided. Regarding acting secretaries and so forth:
although the acting heads of departments and recess appointees are not Presidential successors, see 3 U.S.C. § 19(e), the legislative history of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment suggests that, in the event of a vacancy in office or the absence or disability of a department head, the acting department head, at least at the level of undersecretary, principal deputy, or recess appointee might be entitled to participate in determinations of Presidential disability.
Operation of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment Respecting Presidential Succession, Memorandum Opinion for the Attorney General (June 14, 1985).

I have no idea if this reflects current Department of Justice thinking on the subject, but on the other hand there's been very little precedent established regarding the 25th Amendment.
posted by jedicus at 9:54 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Video of mob-on-cop violence from AP reporter Philip Crowther (because “were they violent?” is a question somehow).
posted by mbrubeck at 9:54 AM on January 7 [22 favorites]


About half the cabinet is nuttier than Trump. Don't look to them for rescue.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:55 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Google search found me 120+ instances (probably more) of the phrase “are you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy”, or its variations, on all of Metafilter. I think we could have easily doubled that today with just this thread alone based on videos/posts/tweets/photos/even fucking interviews Thanks to the treasonous thugs for giving law enforcement such a target rich environment.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:56 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Wikipedia has a list of the fifteen cabinet members who can make a 25th-amendment declaration.
5 USC 101 is the list of executive departments as Congress has by law provided.


Thanks. I have to imagine if the Cabinet did this it would have to be by consensus or near-consensus, but it's good to know exactly who is involved.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:57 AM on January 7


DC MPD spent all summer tear-gassing, beating + kettling people at BLM-related protests, FWIW, as well as threatening and arresting journalists.

Although AFAIK technically the Capitol grounds and buildings are federal government property, so there needed to be an official request for help to the DC MPD for them to operate there.

Which, as many current and former law officers and security experts have been pointing out since yesterday, is a thing that happens in preparation for mass gatherings all the goddamn time. One guy on NBC yesterday afternoon noted that there's a long-standing and well-used multi-agency plan for the fucking Superbowl.

The lack of preparation is absolutely inexcusable.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:57 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


I know it's nothing new to most people here but Zuckerberg banning Trump "indefinitely" is a bit like letting the horses out of the barn, lying about the horses still being in the barn, calling the horses in the field "cows" when they're pointed out to you, painting horses on the walls of the barn and saying, "see, horses" and, while the barn is burning down, finally closing the door and patting yourself on the back for a job well done.

Fuck you Zuck. There's a straight line from your service, it's policies and culture and the radicalization of the right-wing and yesterday's attempted coup.
posted by Mister_Sleight_of_Hand at 9:58 AM on January 7 [83 favorites]


Was this a planned coup?

Some people clearly thought that it could be, and eagerly joined in. Some went in with the intention of disrupting things and wreaking havoc rather than intending on going full Turner Diaries.

But you know what? If you're driving a car and you and your buddies are going out to raise hell and maybe vandalize a few things, and your buddy in the passenger seat says "excuse me" and gets out and shoots a liquor store clerk in the head, you're going to have a helluva time arguing before a jury that YOU TOO are not guilty of murder by virtue of being part of the entourage that produced it. Whether you knew that your buddy had a gun or not. Whether you intended for a shooting to take place or not. You can't just go "oh, I just wanted to bust one of his windows, my BUDDY had the gun" and not face the full array of charges.

And there are cases where that kind of prosecutorial logic is faulty and likely should not apply. Sedition against the government of the United States of America? Not so much one of them.

Let every single person who can be identified as entering that building yesterday start with 20-to-life and plea their way down to three-to-five years.
posted by delfin at 10:00 AM on January 7 [61 favorites]


> for what it's worth, this is what a peaceful occupation of a statehouse looks like

I was there. We were legally allowed to be there. Everyone in the building passed through a security checkpoint run by the police. I was actually rather surprised at how efficient they were being - they definitely could have been dragging their heels.

Prior to that, all I witnessed in the way of anyone trying to force entry was one guy trying to get in through a side door and getting in a yelling match with the officer who stopped him from doing so.

So to reiterate, the situations there and yesterday are not remotely equivalent.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:00 AM on January 7 [56 favorites]


The Capitol Police are a 2,000-member department controlled by the federal government. In a statement today, Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund did not say how many officers were on duty but said more than 50 Capitol Police and DC Metropolitan police had sustained injuries — some of them serious. [In June 2017, the Capitol force arrested 43 protestors out of a group of about 60; they were disability advocates outside Sen. McConnell's office, protesting a Republican healthcare bill: Capitol Police drag disabled protesters out of wheelchairs during Trumpcare protests.]

'I can't stay': Mick Mulvaney resigns as Trump's envoy to Northern Ireland, expects others to follow (CNBC) “I called [Secretary of State] Mike Pompeo last night to let him know I was resigning from that. I can’t do it. I can’t stay,” Mick Mulvaney said in an exclusive interview on “Squawk Box.”

“We didn’t sign up for what you saw last night,” Mulvaney said. “We signed up for making America great again, we signed up for lower taxes and less regulation. The president has a long list of successes that we can be proud of.”
[...] Mulvaney added that Trump was “not the same as he was eight months ago.”

It's bog-standard for politically-appointed ambassadors to resign upon a new president's inauguration. (Trump issued a 'blanket mandate' that Obama's appointees leave their posts in January 2017 -- no extensions for families with kids in local schools, for example, which is also a common practice.)

The idea that Trump's suddenly taking a heel turn is pure fiction, but this useless gesture reminds people (Pompeo, other GOP pols intent on a post-Trump career, etc.) Mulvaney exists (at 53, he's been a state-level pol in SC, served in the House of Representatives, and was OMB director 2017-2020 and acting head of CFPB for a spell -- he's ambitious, to put it mildly) and happily parrots Republican talking points.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:00 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


because “were they violent?” is a question somehow

They had only that many cops are the barricade? I have seen more policing of US high schools than that.

There are only three possible answers; complete incompetence - or collusion of the police with the insurgents - or orders.

Any of those answers - or any combination is unacceptable.

If they "feared for their safety", why didn't they handle that like every other incident?
posted by rozcakj at 10:01 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]


Trump is going to Camp David this weekend.

That's definitely odd. Has he ever been to CD in the past four years? I vaguely seem to recall him having derogatory opinions of the place. Then again, he called the White House a dump, too.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:02 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


State - Pompeo - NOPE
Treasury - Mnuchin - Likely
Defense - Miller - HELL NO
A.G. - Rosen - Likely
Interior - Bernhardt - Not a clue
Ag - Perdue - Unlikely
Commerce - Ross - Can't, napping. But srsly, probably not
Labor - Scalia - Maybe?
HHS - Azar - Maybe
HUD - Carson - Insane, so no
Transportation - Chao - Would resign to run away from it
Energy - Brouillette - Wait...it's not Rick Perry any more? Sheesh, I dunno
Education - DeVos - Erik Prince's sister. Super evil oligarch. Whaddyouthink?
VA - Wilkie - Maybe
Homeland Security - Vacant - Abstains

Don't think there's any path to half there...
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:02 AM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Trumpist CHUD
The chuds on Twitter


Can we please not do this? The victims of the Contamination Hazard Urban Disposal program were just marginalized homeless people who, at worst, chose the wrong spot to shelter. Yes, fine, exposure generally made them violent (but not always; see Bud), but they needed treatment and compassion, not violence.

So-called CHUDs in no way chose to become ill, in no way chose to become violent, and in no way ever planned any kind of evil. When they were violent, it was only because the power of choice had been taken from them. It's deeply unreasonable to connect them to sane, conscious, but evil people like magahats, who are continually faced with the possibility of choosing goodness and keep doubling-down on evil.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:03 AM on January 7 [58 favorites]


Here is an example of an actual peaceful protest in the capitol that also involved occupation and a much more aggressive response from the cops. None of those protestors damaged property, they were not armed with guns and zip ties, they didn't beat up cops, or threaten members of the government with hanging or beheading.
posted by Poldo at 10:03 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


I get that the optics of invaders in Capitol Building is very bad, but at the practical level, the part that affects the actual mechanizations of the US Federal Government, it doesn’t matter that much. You don’t get to be Speaker of the House because you happen to be holding a specific gavel at a certain point in time.

That's exteremely unimaginative thinking. If any of the insurrectionists had the motivation of Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook), Seung-Hui Cho (Virgina Tech), Nikolas Cruz (Stoneman Douglas), Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold (Columbine), Omar Mateen (Pulse), or Dzhokhar Tsarnaev & Tamerlan Tsarnaev (Boston Marathon) this thread could have been titled "Pelosi and 67 Congresspersons dead 113 wounded. Armed stand off at Capital Building in progress".

That there wasn't was just, IDK luck? I don't grok what motivates mass random shooters or white supremacists but make no mistake that yesterday could have gone much differently and ya, killing a bunch of Congress doesn't make you the King of America but shit would be _serious_ today if they had. Just look at the 10+ year freak out over 9/11 and extrapolate a bit to the people holding physical power being afraid. There is zero doubt that the response would not be smegging "Thoughts and Prayers". People on all sides would be falling all over themselves to get someone to do something. A lot would be clamoring for that someone to declare martial law and lock down part/all of the country. One of the someones volunteering would be Trump and boom: successful coup. For a while anyways.

Out of curiosity, why is the FBI asking for tips? Supposing they have huge amounts of CCTV, cell-tower data, selfies, tik-toks, etc, is asking for tips just more, supplemental info/intel, or is it of fundamental importance in their investigation?

Cops don't like to work hard more than anyone else. If they can get Bubba to finger Joe their job is easy.
posted by Mitheral at 10:05 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


This wasn't a "stroll" around the building: These terrorists intended to hurt, maim, and kill elected officials, for the purposes of overthrowing the government.

Even if one believes somehow that the insurrectionists did not intend to assassinate anyone or take hostages, they were, by their own admission both on social media and circumstantially through Guiliani's words, there to prevent the certification of lawful electoral votes and (somehow) use that to keep Trump in office. That they fail to understand that preventing certification would not maintain their god-emporer in office does not make it any less an attempted coup.

Had this happened in any other nation, there would be no argument.
posted by wierdo at 10:07 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Inadequate numbers of apparently poorly trained fearful local police were unable to provide control. The National Guard was not mobilized and couldn't have arrived in time had there been an effective coup attempt. Perhaps we could throw a lot of money toward a department designed to protect the government. We could call it ...National Security?
Was NSA on vacation yesterday?
posted by BlueHorse at 10:08 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]




There were people in there with firearms hunting down Pence for certifying a legal and fair election. I have no doubt if the armed coup members got in fast enough before the senate evacuated we would have a few dead dem Senators.

Just like there can be stochastic terrorism, there can be a loosly instigated coup. You don't have to have somebody writing down all the instructions in a smoke filled room. In fact, you can have a guy on a podium egging on the crowd to do the right thing and complaining how his Vice President betrayed him and Something Must Be Done.
posted by benzenedream at 10:09 AM on January 7 [38 favorites]


Fuck you Bill Bar.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:10 AM on January 7 [56 favorites]


To me the issue of whether or not these were "protesters" (and therefore legit) vs. whether they were "terrorists" (and therefore illegit) is a red herring. Maybe they were protesters, right? One man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter, etc.? Like, if Trump stayed in office in defiance of the election and with the help of congress and reps, I might march into the capitol too. I would consider myself a legitimate protester in the name of democracy.

The difference between this hypothetical me and this real mob lies solely in the validity of our beliefs, not necessarily in our actions. My beliefs would be based in reality and I would be trying to uphold democracy. That's what makes it a morally defensible & just protest for me to hypothetically march into a capitol that has succumbed to a coup. Their beliefs are based on lies, false conspiracy theories, and a desire to subvert democracy. And - this is super relevant - they are driven by hate, bigotry, racism, misogyny, antisemitism, white supremacy, etc. That's what makes their march into the capitol morally indefensible.

I feel like we are shying away from naming the terrible and scary idea that in some cases, people must be silenced (i.e. deplatformed, removed from office, denied airtime, and even prosecuted if necessary) solely based on their beliefs. It's scary as shit to say that! We quibble over how outrageous/unacceptable/illegal/illegitimate the tactics of this mob were. It's a tone argument, you know? We are being cowardly when we focus on their tactics and their methods and on whether or not they broke the law. We need to have the courage to say that their cause is what's wrong, their beliefs are what's objectionable, their actions may indeed be morally legitimate if they had been acting for a different reason.

Protesters who are acting based on dangerous beliefs should be stopped and silenced even if their protest tactics are impeccable. Not that this mob's tactics were, in any way, impeccable. But it's important not to narrow the squabble to tactics alone... very important not to cede the higher ground of WE MUST SILENCE PEOPLE DRIVEN BY HATE AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES BECAUSE THEIR BELIEFS MAKE THEM DANGEROUS.
posted by MiraK at 10:10 AM on January 7 [31 favorites]



They had only that many cops are the barricade? I have seen more policing of US high schools than that.

There are only three possible answers; complete incompetence - or collusion of the police with the insurgents - or orders.


From the dog end of the last thread --- >>>

Certainly, one of my first impressions yesterday was that we'll eventually discover that some key police or security units were conveniently assigned elsewhere or otherwise unavailable at the right time. And that a "money trail" will be found connecting such to directives from Trump (or one of his inner circle). I mean, I usually buy the incompetence argument against conspiracy* but every now and then, you've gotta be open to the evidence of your senses.

* the notion that we shouldn't be in a hurry to claim "conspiracy" when basic human incompetence offers at least as likely an explanation for how something has gone horribly wrong.
posted by philip-random at 10:10 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


The prediction market on me ever saying the words "if only Bill Barr was Attorney General right now" just swung about 99.9 points
posted by saturday_morning at 10:10 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Pleased to report that the last MAGA flag in my neighborhood came down some time yesterday. This is in the R- leaning part of the district that voted out (D) Rouda.
posted by Horselover Fat at 10:11 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


To be fair, there were more cops later, after they'd had time to go home and change.
posted by bonehead at 10:13 AM on January 7 [29 favorites]


The small, peaceful BLM protests in New York City after Biden's win had significantly bigger police presence than what we saw yesterday at the Capitol.

I accidentally drove down a street in the Village where the police were gathering their forces and it was crazy how many and how tricked out in heavy tactical gear they all were. (It was terrifying, hundreds of cops lined up on both sides of the street, I was hoping that they didn't decide that I was a part of their 'problem' as I drove between them.) Later, after the protest passed the area, I had to wait about 5 minutes for the armada of police vehicles to pass before I could get drive home. And this was for a protest of maybe a couple of hundred people at most!
posted by rambling wanderlust at 10:13 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Trump is going to Camp David this weekend.

My guess is they told him “either you flatly say that there will be a peaceful transition or we’re going to go totally 25th on your ass.”
posted by Melismata at 10:13 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Way back in the 1100s, people understood that when the King said "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?", he was ultimately responsible for what followed.

Just because it's now "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome electoral vote certification?" doesn't change that.
posted by delfin at 10:14 AM on January 7 [106 favorites]


The attorney for the Trump Campaign in Pennsylvania withdraws:
"...the client has used the lawyer's services to perpetrate a crime and the client insists upon taking action that the lawyer considers repugnant and with which the lawyer has a fundamental disagreement."
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:15 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


A couple of things:

For those not familiar with Bellingcat. They are currently asking for video and photo evidence to be examined to ascertain timelines of actions and identities. https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1347235616489152520?s=03

I work in coordination with other emergency management organizations. An event like this is planned for as soon as it becomes known. All the details. All the contingencies. All the responsible parties. All of the logistics/supply chain issues. All. Of. It. You plan with the hope to never need to implement. Now, you can get caught flat-footed so your only other asset is speed. Speed to the incident. Get there (or as safely close to there as you can) and start acting. Plan as you go from there based on situational awareness when you get there.

This DC scenario is truly, just not possible, unless it is made possible by intentional under-preparation and slow walking when you do respond. The professional emergency management planners do this type of work *every day*. Every single day. And when they aren't doing it, they are planning for it. Running exercises. Doing table top exercises.

So, to me, there is a spotlight right now on those people who planned and those people who held the power who prevented execution of the plan. Probably a non-confirmed, acting somebody who just loves the man in the White House.

James Comey's recent article regarding Biden just letting things go, couldn't have come out at a more perfect time. We see exactly why we cannot.
posted by zerobyproxy at 10:15 AM on January 7 [107 favorites]


WE MUST SILENCE PEOPLE DRIVEN BY HATE AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES

So, should I be silenced because I firmly believe the cops were involved and many allowed this to happen because they support it?

Because, I have no actual proof. I'm a conspiracy theorist. Sadly, we have to be real that some conspiracies don't make you a nutjob to believe.

Like, you know, believing that the US fixed the intelligence to invade Iraq. Plenty of evidence, but technically still a "conspiracy."
posted by deadaluspark at 10:16 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


There was also that video where the cops are keeping the doors open inside of the Capitol for the terrorists to come through, nodding and waving them in happily as they passed what looked like the metal detector area. Sadly I can't seem to find a link to that one.

C-SPAN has 14 unbroken hours of content starting with yesterday's joint sesh. An hour and a half in you'll see plenty of video of the shot I'm pretty sure you're referring to.
posted by phunniemee at 10:17 AM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Link to a thread pulling together the literal Nazi pieces of this particular story.
posted by prefpara at 10:17 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]



I really wish someone would call my Dad, a retired Capitol Hill police officer (37yrs), to talk about the difference in preparation. The stories he’s telling me about prep for Farrakhan and others vs why yesterday happened the way it did is mind blowing.


Twitter threadreader link
posted by TWinbrook8 at 10:17 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


James Comey needs to go back to tweeting pictures of waterfalls or whatever. That's all I'll ever accept from him.
posted by valkane at 10:17 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


There's more evidence of police involvement in this coup attempt than there is evidence of voter fraud.
posted by SansPoint at 10:17 AM on January 7 [86 favorites]


I wondered if the perceived slowness of arrests of these widely photographed men is because the FBI does not want them to be pardoned. But that assumes good will and perspicacity. Probably they just are working to the clock with no particular urgency or interest.
Speaking of pardoned, the thought occurred to me the other day that part of the reason for the Blackwater pardons was a dog whistle to his supporters to say that "hey, you can commit atrocities and I will still pardon you."

But that's probably me just being paranoid.
posted by moonbiter at 10:18 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


I'm still unclear as to why the degree to which this may have been planned, or not, has any relevance.

Was it less well-planned than flying planes into the World Trade Centre? When we look at how that changed the US 20 years later, and we try to imagine what yesterday's events mean over the next days, weeks, months..

The question of a plan does not seem on point, at all.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:18 AM on January 7 [12 favorites]


I suspect that something that played a large part, as far as backup from executive agencies, is confusion about the chain of command and how to handle that situation. Because all Trump had to do when things went nuts was clam up and not give orders and suddenly it's an open question who gets to make what calls, and some people involved at the highest levels are going to be extremely by the book on that while Trump's move is always to throw away the book. It sounds like this was an issue on the day of.

The behavior of other agencies involved in the run up to this is something I'm curious about. It's not like Congress is new to running secure events and I can't imagine a bright red flag like getting the silent treatment from normally cooperative agencies would go unnoticed by members of Congress and Congressional staff involved in the process. So did everything from Executive agencies seem normal to Congress going into yesterday?
posted by jason_steakums at 10:19 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


To be fair, there were more cops later, after they'd had time to go home and change.

This is very disparaging towards the police. Most of the ones I know keep a spare uniform in the trunk.
posted by valkane at 10:19 AM on January 7 [38 favorites]


I'm still unclear as to why the degree to which this may have been planned, or not, has any relevance.

to prove conspiracy, you need to prove a plan
posted by philip-random at 10:20 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Aides weigh resignations, removal options as Trump rages against perceived betrayals (Philip Rucker and others, WaPo), in which former chief of staff John Kelly comes to a long-delayed conclusion:
“We need to look infinitely harder at who we elect to any office in our land — at the office seeker’s character, at their morals, at their ethical record, their integrity, their honesty, their flaws, what they have said about women, and minorities, why they are seeking office in the first place, and only then consider the policies they espouse."
posted by box at 10:21 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Even if one believes somehow that the insurrectionists did not intend to assassinate anyone or take hostages, they were, by their own admission both on social media and circumstantially through Guiliani's words, there to prevent the certification of lawful electoral votes and (somehow) use that to keep Trump in office. That they fail to understand that preventing certification would not maintain their god-emporer in office does not make it any less an attempted coup.

And if they had somehow pulled it off, it would have prevented Biden from taking office- no certification, no elected President.

That Trump would be replaced by Acting President Nancy Pelosi on the 20th is neither here nor there- there's a universe in which the GOP won the House and we'd have Acting President Kevin McCarthy instead. They were trying to prevent Biden from taking office, full stop.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:21 AM on January 7 [12 favorites]


Republican state lawmaker livestreamed himself in mob storming US Capitol

Derrick Evans, who was sworn in to the West Virginia House of Delegates last month, "was livestreaming on Facebook as he and other protesters muscled their way through the doors of one entrance carrying Trump flags and signs," BuzzFeed News wrote, adding that Evans shouted, "Patriots inside, baby!"
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:21 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


phillip-random And there is proof of a plan. A shitty plan that didn't work, but a plan. They had zipties to take hostages, they had weapons, they had bombs, they had merch.
posted by SansPoint at 10:24 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


From this first hand account of Ashli Babbitt:

The screaming mob was pounding on the locked door. The people inside piled furniture against the the door to save themselves. But Ashli broke a hole in the glass and managed to claw her body halfway through the hole.

This is a scene from every zombie movie ever. And from her twitter QAnon postings, it seems her brain indeed was infected by the zombie plague.

It's unfortunate she was shot, but not entirely unexpected that the frightened people inside would react.
posted by JackFlash at 10:24 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


So here we are.

With 13 days remaining in his presidency, we've reached the utterly predictable (and widely, publicly predicted) endgame for Trump -- refusal to hand over power.

He tried leveraging the judicial system that he and the GOP packed with sycophants and ideologues. While the radical conservative courts have aided and abetted Trump in many decisions over the last four years, they appear to have failed to pass this last, most vital test.

He has installed loyalists at many military positions across the DoD, Pentagon, and national security apparatus, though so far (that we know of) it appears that he has not attempted to deploy the military against his enemies. Perhaps partly because there's some measure of resistance alive in that institution, perhaps because Trump is a draft-dodger and a coward at heart and knows he doesn't have the stones to command the brass, perhaps because he really believed the judiciary he and Mitch created would do the job and so got started too late on packing the military with true believers. Or perhaps he hasn't needed the military, since basically all domestic police forces are crawling with white nationalist sympathizers willing to violently suppress dissent and systematically murder anyone they want, on camera, and laugh about it.

So he has the legislative branch and his most ardent supporters among the electorate left. While his party has been voted out of control of both houses, the GOP has been encouraging and enacting Trump's worst behaviors for four years. A significant subset of the GOP have entered their names into the history books in all sorts of ways (written objections to certification of the election, speeches in support of the coup on the floor which are recorded for posterity, and much more) and are all-in, as they always have been, on permanently ensconcing overt fascism as the mode of government in this country.

His supporters among the electorate are at best Nazi sympathizers. I'm very comfortable with calling most of them actual literal fascists and Nazis. They are constantly emboldened by Trump, the legislature, and each other. They are motivated by belief in a vast conspiracy of liberal pedophile baby-killing blood-drinking Jewish globalists. They are insane and insanely well-armed. They have been murdering liberals and Jews already, and as should be obvious by the events of January 6th, are eager to do much, much more.

If there are no consequences, or insufficient consequences, this will happen again. And again. Yes, this coup was planned. They had t-shirts printed up before the coup, for fucks's sake. And they will plan another.

Trump must be removed from power immediately, arrested, and prosecuted. Every single Republican in both houses of Congress must be removed from power immediately, arrested, and prosecuted. Yes, even Mitt Romney. The coup attempt did not spring fully-formed from the foreheads of Rudy Giuliani and Josh Hawley. The whole party built this - some even participated in the coup attempt personally. And they must be held to account.

Every Trump loyalist installed throughout the system must be removed from office. Every single person who participated, planned, or materially supported the coup through supplies or donations must be arrested and prosecuted. This includes pretty much all of Trump's family along with pretty much all of the far-right media apparatus which has been goading and encouraging domestic terrorism for decades now.

That these reasonable legal repercussions for the rebels, GOP, Trump and the rest read like pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking is an indicator of how far things have gone. It might be too late. I confess to often feeling that it is too late. I guess we will see. But I don't see any way to even start thinking about the future of the nation without a simply massive investigation, trial, and sentencing for thousands of seditionists.

Trump is desperate to hold onto the power of his office, owing to his malignant narcissism's inability to suffer ego injury and his considerable legal exposure when the (apparently impenetrable) shield of the office is no more. We've moved beyond doom and gloom predictions and into active, violent domestic terrorism perpetrated by far-right fascists, at scale, in the heart of the seat of legislative power. He has the GOP portion of the legislature and his true believer zealots left. He hasn't yet tried to pull the military lever -- one reason why many (myself included) are very fucking concerned about the fact that a man who cannot be trusted with a twitter account still retains access to the nuclear arsenal of the US military.

The current leaders of the Democratic party are not up to the moment, as evidenced by Speaker Pelosi's recess of the House. It is no surprise to me that it is the young folks in the squad who started drawing up the articles of impeachment and vociferously advocating for immediate action. I hope they succeed. If the remaining antibodies in the national body politic are so far gone as to be unable to mete out punishment for attempted violent overthrow of the government, we are simply done as a nation. Done.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:25 AM on January 7 [77 favorites]


This is a scene from every zombie movie ever. And from her twitter QAnon postings, it seems her brain indeed was infected by the zombie plague.

Let's just NOT, can we?

These films and shows already do enough to dehumanize every person on the planet, with ALL the plots revolving around "humans are the REAL monsters."

Part of the reason these people are ready to shoot up their neighbors is because they've been primed by media like this.

Let's just NOT compare them to zombies. They are fools, but they are not mindless, thoughtless, flesh eaters. Let's not play into the same shit that brought them to this.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:26 AM on January 7 [45 favorites]


I feel like WV Delegate Derrick Evans is the first one the Biden DOJ is going to throw the entire book at.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:26 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


What I don't get about the "which part was an attempted coup?" debate is, Trump himself obviously is attempting a (self) coup by every means available to him. We know he leaned on the Attorney General, DoD, state election officials, and Congresspeople as hard as he could, and we know he incited the civilian attacks; we can assume he tried anything else he thought might work. Why pick one particular strand of a blatant coup attempt and debate whether it would have constituted a coup attempt on its own? It's like taking apart a bomb and then debating whether each part on its own constitutes a bomb or not. Everyone who assisted some part of Trump's coup attempt knew what they were assisting -- they all signed up to be part of the bomb.
posted by john hadron collider at 10:26 AM on January 7 [61 favorites]


I am being strongly reminded this morning that traditional newspaper style political cartoons are a garbage form of art for blockheaded people.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:29 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


to prove conspiracy, you need to prove a plan
posted by philip-random at 10:20 AM on January 7


For the life of me I can't understand why people aren't putting more emphasis on this as "proof of a plan"

Giuliani Leaves Voicemail for Wrong Senator to Slow Down the Certification

posted by Roach at 10:29 AM on January 7 [46 favorites]




What a nightmare...especially since lots of people were predicting exactly this 4 years ago.

Lots of thoughts:
1. Time to make DC a state - 2 more Dem senators will solve lots of problems
2. Time to set up the "Truth and Punishment" council - we need to rid the whole government from these neo nazis ASAP. Start with the police and the military.
3. Time to put back Rule of Law across the US - start with the IRS. Audit the wealthy, not the poor.
4. Time to take all of those consultants in DC and make them US Gov't employees. It'd be cheaper AND they'd vote democratic. The next time I hear a consultant for the USG say they don't like big government I'm going to crack.
5. How many listening devices were placed in the capital yesterday? How many key loggers? Have they replaced every keyboard and mouse in the building?
6. BRAC the south - I'm tired of sending my federal tax dollars to red states who tell me how they think i should live.

My joke for the day:
Question: How many of the rioters who invaded the US Capital yesterday were Russian assets?
Answer: All of them, whether they know it or not

Fortunately my "Every Republican is a Fascist" T-shirts arrive next week.
posted by Farce_First at 10:31 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Trump pressured Pence to engineer a coup, then put the VP in danger, source says -- CNN

"President Donald Trump and top White House officials did little to check in on Vice President Mike Pence while he and members of his family were inside the US Capitol when Trump-backed rioters stormed the halls of Congress on Wednesday, a source close to the vice president tells CNN.

Pence was joined by his wife Karen Pence and his daughter Charlotte for the ceremonial counting of the electoral votes in Congress Wednesday. Several of the violent Trump supporters who were rampaging the US Capitol were heard screaming "where's Mike Pence," the source said, frightening the vice president and his family.

Yet, the President and his top aides barely lifted a finger to check in on Pence to make sure he and his family were unharmed, the source added."
posted by valkane at 10:33 AM on January 7 [33 favorites]






The people inside piled furniture against the the door to save themselves

There are reports that this was actually a deliberate and intentional and planned tactic by Secret Service agents as part of protecting the Congresspeople behind them. It wasn't panicked staffers or somebody throwing up shit willy-nilly, it was agents using their training to establish a physical blockade and then taking up defensive positions.

Which is to say, regardless of how you feel about the rioter being shot, I doubt the agent who shot her is going to suffer any professional consequences - they were doing things by the book.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:34 AM on January 7 [43 favorites]


It's interesting how many critical moments in history have turned on the vibe. Especially in coups, there's always a series of moments when people read the room, read the mood of the generals and other power brokers, try to read each other without revealing too much until they know which way the vibe is headed.

I completely agree, and I think any argument over intent or plans completely misses that this was a stocastic coup. Trump and his enablers fired up a bunch of supporters with rhetoric about stolen elections and sent them on a Naruto run while he casually retreated to the White House. This is what he does. He breaks things and waits for an opportunity. The plan was to literally flood the zone with armed deplorables and wait to see what happens.

If things had turned out differently, I am sure Trump would have seized the moment. I bet he even delayed sending the National Guard to run out the clock hoping that something advantageous would occur.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:34 AM on January 7 [31 favorites]


Someone has uploaded on S3 a lot of the videos and photos taken by the insurrectionists, for those interested in source material. (content warning: includes the death of Ashli Babbit; one link is clearly identified if you want to avoid it but there may be others).
posted by ook at 10:36 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


1:02PM: Transportation - Chao - Would resign to run away from it

1:28PM: Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao will resign, the first to leave Trump’s Cabinet after he incited mob that attacked Capitol

mcstayinskool, come on down!
posted by saturday_morning at 10:36 AM on January 7 [67 favorites]


Just because their plan was shitty, slapdash, and poorly thought out doesn’t mean they didn’t have one.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:36 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Let's just NOT, can we?
Au con·traire. Let's.

These people's brains are infected with zombie ideas. And these zombie ideas are contagious. And as much as you think you can tamp these dangerous ideas down, they keep springing back to life like zombies.
posted by JackFlash at 10:36 AM on January 7 [27 favorites]


"Derrick Evans, a newly elected member of West Virginia's House of Delegates, was livestreaming on Facebook as he and other protesters muscled their way through the doors of one entrance carrying Trump flags and signs. The video shows the Republican lawmaker, clad in a helmet and military-style gear, cheering as those ahead of him rip back the door amid the attempted coup, in which one woman was shot and killed."

Now claims he was there as "an independent member of the media".
posted by ook at 10:38 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


Thanks, Joey Michaels - that teacher guide is great for parents of teens, too.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:39 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I dunno, I've been saying for years that the military always slowly sends its tactics back home to be used on the American populace. I'm not sure I should be so surprised that America essentially invaded itself.

Well, with all the travel restrictions from COVID, who else's government is the CIA going to topple?
posted by Mayor West at 10:39 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao will resign, the first to leave Trump’s Cabinet after he incited mob that attacked Capitol

Yeah, I could be wrong but I'm guessing she doesn't want to be part of the cabinet that votes to invoke the 25th Amendment. I hope this is what it is because if it is, things are moving along in that direction.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:40 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Re: Members turning in their resignations. I like to think everyone has a line. However that attempted coup is the line for some of Trump's people is disturbing no matter how you slice it. On one hand "Really, you were fine with everything until an actual coup attempt?" for those who are resigning and on the other "Really, are are fine with everything including an actual coup attempt?" for those who aren't.
posted by Mitheral at 10:40 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Schumer to Politico: "If Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Stenger hasn’t vacated the position by then, I will fire him as soon as Democrats have a majority in the Senate"
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:40 AM on January 7 [25 favorites]


It's relevant to question whether 45 was essentially a "lone wolf" stochastic terrorist, or whether there were allies within the police departments, cabinet, and national guard delaying responses and limiting use of force against the mob. Both of those are serious, but the latter is far worse. If trumpists were allowed in to the building, then those that allowed them in shouldn't be protecting democratically-elected officials in future.

I don't know which is the case, but finding out is going to be critical.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 10:41 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


It's unfortunate she was shot, but not entirely unexpected that the frightened people inside would react.

Scared cops did not shoot that domestic terrorist.

If you've seen the unfortunate video, the scared cops are on the side of the door with the mob. The person who goes to her aid first is a man in a suit with an earpiece. On the stairs, there is a tactical team with rifles. They seem to outnumber the mob yet are confused and passive.

The domestic terrorist was entering a hallway where the door was barricaded, and guns were pointing out of every doorway. It was a prepared, defensive setup to maintain the safety of our government officials.
posted by meowzilla at 10:41 AM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Ralph Northam @GovernorVA
I'm extending Virginia's National Guard deployment at least through Jan. 20, based on conversations this morning with our emergency teams and Washington D.C. Virginia state police also remain on the ground.

We will be there until President-Elect Biden is officially sworn in.
1:38 PM · Jan 7, 2021
posted by bluesky43 at 10:41 AM on January 7 [40 favorites]


I know it's pedantic, but it's perfectly okay for people and police officers to be scared. It's not okay to let it dictate their actions
posted by Lord_Pall at 10:42 AM on January 7 [24 favorites]


I hope that what happened yesterday will turn out to be a watershed moment for the nation as a whole and the Republican party in particular, but I fear that Trump's relentless attacks on the media and his baseless claims of election fraud have created a Dolchstoß legend that doesn't end with yesterday's events.
posted by dmh at 10:42 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


should I be silenced because I firmly believe the cops were involved and many allowed this to happen because they support it?

I mean, look, I hate that we end up arguing this aspect every time. "Well I can't prove my beliefs either, so therefore I can't condemn theirs." It's not exactly moral relativism but it's ... adjacent, right? It's a mode of thinking which leads us to prioritize concern for decorum, rules, custom, and "the right way to do things" over and above what is actually being done and why and to whose benefit. We substitute plausible deniability in place of any actual standards, values, or mission.

This is the loophole that allowed Trump to come to power. It's the loophole that allows corporations to perpetrate global swindles for the profit of a few overlords. Indeed it's what allows police to continue perpetrating brutality on select segments of the population. As long as they have plausible deniability we have no way to stop them from doing enormous damage.

IDK I'm not a moral philosopher/ political theorist /sociology expert. I'm only speaking as someone who has learned some lessons in personal life and feels that those lessons are applicable more broadly. As long as we keep the fight in "legitimacy of tactics" territory, we remain in danger of malicious actors overrunning our precious systems. We have to be able to take a moral stand, too, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us.

It's not a paradox for tolerant people to refuse to tolerate intolerance. It's not a paradox for people who believe in democracy to forcibly eject elected officials who seek to overturn democracy. It's not a paradox for people who believe in freedom of expression to silence those who wish to deny that right to the oppressed.
posted by MiraK at 10:43 AM on January 7 [73 favorites]


You get into the government-overthrowing game, it seems to me, and people shooting at you is Queensbury Rules. I think we can count ourselves lucky that there were not many more killed yesterday.
posted by thelonius at 10:43 AM on January 7 [26 favorites]


Derrick Evans [...] Now claims he was there as "an independent member of the media".

Fuuuck that terrible defense is going to catch on among these idiots, isn't it? Wow, looks like everyone there was new media documenting the sedition but no seditionists showed up! They had to break into every room in the building just to be sure seditionists weren't hiding there!
posted by jason_steakums at 10:44 AM on January 7 [15 favorites]


Rep. Mo Brooks is still claiming this was antifa, and that congress had been warned about violent antifa action. Yet many congresspersons + the VP brought their family to the session? Then literally an hour later he swings the other way and says " well you made them do it."

He and all his cronies should be disgusted with themselves. I think of all the rhetorical tactics in the Trump playbook this is the most disgusting to me. "Well I didn't do it, and if I did do it, I was justified."
posted by muddgirl at 10:44 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


All the back and forth on whether this was a technically a coup puts me in mind of nothing so much as Roger Griffin in 2015 saying that Trump really isn't a fascist because he's not sufficiently palingenetic.

In October 2020, Griffin told Vox he still didn't consider Trump a fascist because "He does not pose a challenge to constitutional democracy." Wonder if he still feels that way.
posted by nickmark at 10:45 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Evans isn't the only one. Justin Hill, newly elected State Representative from Missouri, skipped his own swearing-in ceremony to be in DC. (He says he did not enter the Capitol building). He's also a former cop. (NB - A friend of mine used to work with him, and confirms that Hill's a scumbag who should not have been given a badge, much less elected to anything.)
posted by Chanther at 10:45 AM on January 7 [14 favorites]


* the notion that we shouldn't be in a hurry to claim "conspiracy" when basic human incompetence offers at least as likely an explanation for how something has gone horribly wrong.

Note, though, that even if someone's willing to chalk the lack of preparation up to "incompetence", it's a pretty damn good example of what people are referring to when they speak of systemic racism.

Go read that Twitter thread TWinbrook8 linked above, the one about the Dad who served in the Capitol Police.

To quote that: "He just told me about a time when Farrakhan was on the Hill with 4 men. Not 40. Not 14. FOUR. They had the SWAT Team in the garage and held the entire department until Farrakhan left."

IOW, even if it's "just" incompetence, it's an incompetence driven by the racist assumption that a mob of white people is inherently less dangerous and scary than a group of black people.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:45 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Nancy Pelosi
@SpeakerPelosi
I will speak with reporters live at 2 pm ET at the Capitol following yesterday’s assault on our American democracy.

Watch here: https://facebook.com/NancyPelosi
posted by bluesky43 at 10:45 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


MiraK, I think you missed my point.

I was called a conspiracy theorist for years and roundly dismissed for calling GWB a war criminal.

The point is who gets to decide what a "conspiracy theorist" is matters.

I had no disagreement with you that we have to stop hate, but to reject all conspiracies is to live in a world where we have assumed there is no corruption, or that we have magically rooted it all out.

I'm just saying you're liable to shut down people who actually are speaking truth to power by trying to shut down "conspiracy theories."
posted by deadaluspark at 10:46 AM on January 7 [12 favorites]


Hopefully, this means Rep. Omar's Articles of Impeachment will be filed.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:46 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


soundguy99: In all sincerity, I suspect it was a mix of incompetence and deliberate action. Of course, sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from deliberate inaction.
posted by SansPoint at 10:47 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


JUST IN: White House Deputy National Security Adviser Matthew Pottinger resigns, according to a White House official and a person familiar with his resignation, joining a slate of White House staff to resign in the wake of rioting at the U.S. Capitol.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:47 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


"It’s always the convenient narrative to depict white racist mobs as backwater, poor, ignorant white folks. Yesterday’s mob being organized & incited by a bunch of wealthy, elected officials from elite universities is a perfect reflection of what’s always been the reality." -- Bree Newsome
posted by valkane at 10:48 AM on January 7 [87 favorites]


I am waiting for 11:59 a.m. on January 20th when yet more White House lickspittles will say, "I've had enough."
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:49 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]


It's not a paradox for tolerant people to refuse to tolerate intolerance. It's not a paradox for people who believe in democracy to forcibly eject elected officials who seek to overturn democracy. It's not a paradox for people who believe in freedom of expression to silence those who wish to deny that right to the oppressed.

QFT
posted by ichomp at 10:49 AM on January 7 [22 favorites]


A quote from Douglas Adams seems apropos for this entire situation:

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
posted by deadaluspark at 10:49 AM on January 7 [36 favorites]


PSA: Text 25TH to 50409 or as a twitter direct message to @resistbot. It will send letters to your representatives demanding that they support the removal of 45 from office immediately, based on the 25th amendment.
posted by Dashy at 10:49 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]




Math problem: If half the cabinet resigns, how many cabinet members have to vote in favor of the 25th amendment? Do acting cabinet members count?
posted by kaibutsu at 10:50 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

I do love my iPhone.
posted by valkane at 10:51 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Hopefully, this means Rep. Omar's Articles of Impeachment will be filed.

Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, who is one of Pelosi's closest allies and probable successor, called for action on the 25A and/or impeachment about half an hour ago, which is a good sign.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:51 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Has there been a live video or a photo of Trump since yesterday's address? (He followed Giuliani, but Mike Flynn was a speaker, too.) Even, like, a clip of him walking across the Rose Garden, or a still picture where he's standing on the balcony? The "we love you" clip that was taken down by most outlets was pre-taped, he called into the RNC meeting, today's medal ceremony was closed-door, and now he's being whisked off to Camp David. I know he disappeared for a couple of days after the election, so it's not unprecedented/unpresidented.

What is this, from that Atlanta Journal-Constitution piece: At almost 4 p.m. press secretary Kayleigh McEnany tweeted that the president had called for the National Guard to address the violence that had erupted at the Capitol, with some D.C.-area news outlets reporting that multiple people were injured Wednesday afternoon.

“At President @realDonaldTrump’s direction, the National Guard is on the way along with other federal protective services.” She added, “We reiterate President Trump’s call against violence and to remain peaceful.”


Not linked by AJC, not at her account, the ProPublica deleted tweets project doesn't have it either, and the story yesterday was that Pence dealt w/ the Guard.

AJC also has breaking details on one of the deaths: A Kennesaw woman was identified as one of four people who died during Wednesday’s violent siege at the U.S. Capitol. Washington, D.C., Metropolitan Police Chief Robert Contee said 34-year-old Rosanne Boland died of an undisclosed medical emergency.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:53 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, who is one of Pelosi's closest allies and probable successor

I did not know this (trying to pay less attention to hyper inside-baseball stuff after burning out in 2016). He's my representative. Clearly I should be calling his office more.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:54 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


phillip-random And there is proof of a plan. A shitty plan that didn't work, but a plan. T

I was responding to someone who said, "I'm still unclear as to why the degree to which this may have been planned, or not, has any relevance" ... and included this in my comment.

I was not trying to imply that there isn't proof of plan. I think it's rather emphatically the opposite
posted by philip-random at 10:55 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Matt Yglesias points out "...impeachment 13 days before Inauguration feels crazy but: a) There is literally no other check on pardon power, b) In the District of Columbia, all crimes are federal crimes so there’s no state charge you can bring against violent mobs acting at the president’s behest."
posted by PhineasGage at 10:55 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


If trumpists were allowed in to the building, then those that allowed them in shouldn't be protecting democratically-elected officials in future.

100+ Trumpist Congresspeople voted not to certify the results of the election. They and their staff are part of the coup.
posted by benzenedream at 10:55 AM on January 7 [42 favorites]


"The striking thing in the photos is how *relaxed* they look. No stress. Total confidence in their place, like they’re special guests at white supremacy night at the Louvre." -- Esther Choo
posted by valkane at 10:58 AM on January 7 [70 favorites]


Nancy Pelosi is supposed to have a press conference at 2PM Eastern. Here is a link to the Washington Post YouTube Feed
posted by interogative mood at 10:59 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Weird indie-rock news from David Renshaw in The Fader: “Ariel Pink and John Maus spotted during D.C. Trump riot”
On Thursday morning, January 7, Pink tweeted to confirm that he "was in dc to peacefully show my support for the president." Maus has yet to comment.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:00 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Biden is talking right now.
posted by meese at 11:01 AM on January 7


Matt Yglesias points out ...
Yep. That's pretty much why the Blackwater pardons stood out to me.
posted by moonbiter at 11:01 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


I am signer #37067 on resistbot, apparently. Resistbot is on fire, it says.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:02 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


...has nothing to do with Capitol Police, it's because Trump did not call on federal forces....

The Capitol Police have the capability to secure the perimeter of the grounds by putting up tall fencing and forbidding anyone from even setting foot on the sidewalks of the streets surrounding the grounds. They are doing it as I write, and they do it every single year for the State of the Union (adding several minutes to my commute). They wouldn't have needed personnel from other agencies, though it would help.

Knowing what they knew yesterday, I don't think they should have gone to that extreme, but they could have easily set up much a stronger but smaller physical perimeter, plus had more personnel guarding it.

But don't listen to me; I know nothing. Rather: "I mean, we train and plan and budget every day, basically, to have this not happen,” said Kim Dine, who was chief of the Capitol Police from 2012 to 2016. “How it happened, I can’t figure that out.”
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:04 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


I hate how I can't help focusing on Biden's prompter technique
posted by Morpeth at 11:05 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Biden giving a speech now and GOING THERE. with everything.
posted by Max Power at 11:05 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


America has a conspiracy addiction, and it's turning us into a real life version of Idiocracy, and they can't be separated between fun conspiracies and dangerous ones, because they all congeal together into this cauldron of paranoia and lunacy.

It says a whole lot, I think, that Buffalo dude might be genuinely bananas or just there for the Lulz or maybe he was just following the messages written out in the chem trails warning him not to take the Covid vaccine.
posted by Beholder at 11:05 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Biden is announcing cabinet picks along with condemning what has happened.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:06 AM on January 7


Biden saying the Department of Justice needs to return to the original spirit of standing up for civil rights, and standing up to internal terrorists and racists like the Klan.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:06 AM on January 7 [23 favorites]


At 12:10 I was signer #24,339, so yeah, ResistBot is on fire.
posted by emelenjr at 11:06 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Pelosi speaking now
posted by SansPoint at 11:06 AM on January 7


Biden officially announcing his new Attorney General, Merrick Garland, and says to Dept. of Justice staff : "You are not the President's or the Vice President's lawyer."
posted by PhineasGage at 11:07 AM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Pelosi is on. She opens with "The President of the United States incited an armed insurrection against America."
posted by theodolite at 11:07 AM on January 7 [46 favorites]


Pelosi calls on Pence to invoke the 25th amendment and says that they will impeach if he does not act.
posted by theodolite at 11:07 AM on January 7 [81 favorites]


twentyfivetwentyfivetwentyfive

also, I adore Pelosi's masks, every time
posted by phunniemee at 11:08 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


So just checking, the rats are abandoning the sinking ship/Cabinet members are quitting so they won't get forced into 25th-ing, right?

So there's a MeFi cliche of sorts (although I don't think that it originates on the blue), "Surely this", which is invoked whenever there's some sort of particularly outrageous line crossing; the implication is that it should be a catalyst for some sort of change, if not drastic change, but probably won't be because of [inertia|Overton window|people don't really give a shit|whatever]. It's remotely possible--and I'm already anticipating the pushback that I'll get from folks over this--that some of the rats, as reprehensible as they are for joining his administration in the first place, really did decide that 45 went a bridge too far; whether they failed their rationalization armor check, or they're hoping that they might possibly have a career after this (possibly one that doesn't involve being in the employ of the Worst President Ever), who really knows.

And, it should go without saying, not all of his staff are doing so.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:08 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Pelosi is directly blaming Trump for inciting an insurrection, called on Pence to invoke the 25th and said Congress may impeach if he isn't removed the quick way. She came out hard.
posted by wierdo at 11:08 AM on January 7 [17 favorites]


Pelosi calling for Pence to use the 25th, otherwise they are prepared to bring articles of impeachment.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:08 AM on January 7


fwiw: she said "may impeach" (if Pence doesn't act).
posted by ButteryMales at 11:09 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


My roommate points out that a much smarter thing for Congress to do is to start Impeachment talks now, to sort of force Pence into choosing whether he wants to let the newly-Democratic-majority Senate rule on that, or whether he can try to save a shred of dignity for his party by invoking the 25th Amendment himself.

I absolutely agree that regardless of what Pence may or may not do with the 25th Amendment, the House needs to Impeach Trump today, right now.

Two-thirds of the Senate need to convict, but it'll put Republican Senators on the record that they support the President sending a mob to attack their own chamber. Sadly, I don't doubt that many will do so.
posted by Gelatin at 11:09 AM on January 7 [15 favorites]


Pelosi is angry. Good.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:09 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


The Capitol Police have the capability to secure the perimeter of the grounds by putting up tall fencing and forbidding anyone from even setting foot on the sidewalks of the streets surrounding the grounds.

You're right of course and I think I misrepresented what Hunter was saying. I think the point is that this goes well above the actions of individual pro-Trump cops.
posted by muddgirl at 11:10 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I'm trying to find out if acting cabinet members can vote in a 25th Amendment vote but unsuccessfully. Anybody?
posted by bluesky43 at 11:10 AM on January 7


A charitable reading of "may impeach" is that there is a chance they might not have the votes to support it in the House. I think they do, and I think Speaker Pelosi does, but as long as there's a chance of impeachment not getting out of the House, she is right to couch the threat.
posted by SansPoint at 11:10 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Weird that Biden and Pelosi are speaking at the same time.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:10 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


I find her to be infuriating. It's the democratic predilection to explaining everything in detail when frankly, we're past that. Tell us what you are going to do, when, and then go do it plztobe.
posted by Lord_Pall at 11:11 AM on January 7 [19 favorites]


it'll put Republican Senators on the record that they support the President sending a mob to attack their own chamber

From their point of view, it will put them on record that they support Trump sending a mob to attack their Democratic colleagues. That's an easy lift for a lot of them.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:11 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


One possibility is that we've already had a soft coup against Trump by Pence and the cabinet - I can imagine that the high-ranking members of the republican 'establishment' (Pence, McConnell, Mnuchin...) want to see Trump's hands removed from the levers of power at this point, but don't want to deal with the backlash from their constituents that would come from impeachment or invoking the 25th amendment. So fly Trump somewhere safe (say, Camp David?) until January the 20th, ignore all his orders, then wait out the problem.

It's not the right way to deal with the problem... but something like that must be awfully tempting.
posted by Urtylug at 11:12 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Congress' duty is to expel the insurrectionists, and legislate as necessary to remove the president. Healing can come after that.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:12 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


The officials' email systems require a title of either Mr., Mrs., Ms., or Dr. Which one fits you best?

Ugh, they're still doing that shit?

Your letters to Sen. Blunt, Sen. Hawley, and Rep. Bush were sent!

Yeah, that was a waste. I want to send a giant box of cookies to Cori Bush, a bag of dog poop to Blunt, and a one-way trip directly into the sun for Hawley.
posted by Foosnark at 11:12 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Thanking House members for stuff is not the message we need from the Speaker right now. What the fuck man.
posted by lazaruslong at 11:12 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


I'm trying to find out if acting cabinet members can vote in a 25th Amendment vote but unsuccessfully. Anybody?

See this earlier comment. As far as I can tell the answer is "probably, at least at the higher levels, but it's never been tested."
posted by jedicus at 11:13 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I feel like Pence will jump at the chance to put the responsibility on Congress's shoulders here but I don't know how being a literal target yesterday may have affected him. Whether or not he has the cabinet support is another question.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:14 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Okay among the rambling Speaker Pelosi described invoking the 25th as an "emergency of the highest order" so that was nice.
posted by lazaruslong at 11:15 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Did someone tell Speaker Pelosi that AG Barr resigned last month?
posted by PhineasGage at 11:15 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I feel like Pence will jump at the chance to put the responsibility on Congress's shoulders here

You mean he's letting them make the decision instead of Mother??
posted by deadaluspark at 11:15 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


The FBI is seeking to identify individuals instigating the riot. It is individual and did they check at the White House?
posted by Oyéah at 11:16 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


we've already had a soft coup against Trump

Yes. Below is the statement from acting Defense Secretary Christopher Miller about activating the National Guard. Notice who is not mentioned?

"Chairman Milley and I just spoke separately with the Vice President and with Speaker Pelosi, Leader McConnell, Senator Schumer and Representative Hoyer about the situation at the U.S. Capitol. We have fully activated the D.C. National Guard to assist federal and local law enforcement as they work to peacefully address the situation. We are prepared to provide additional support as necessary and appropriate as requested by local authorities. Our people are sworn to defend the constitution and our democratic form of government and they will act accordingly."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:16 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


I didn't think the third act of the Trump Presidency movie was going to involve Pence as the " Bad guy who can make a difference if he does the right thing and turns against his boss" character.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:17 AM on January 7 [42 favorites]


The Capitol Riot Was an Attack on Multiracial Democracy.

I love this (as generally everything Serwer writes), but I do wish he talked more about how this white grievance is tied so closely to racial capitalism (there is a reason why so much anger is directed to otherwise banal initiatives like universal healthcare and wealth redistribution of a handful of inhumane oligarchs).
posted by Ouverture at 11:18 AM on January 7 [18 favorites]


It really does have all the trimmings of a badly scripted film.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:18 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


we've already had a soft coup against Trump

NOT A COUP, soft or otherwise. i believe that's called executing your oath of office.
posted by lalochezia at 11:18 AM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Andrew McCormick in The Nation: “Madness on Capitol Hill”
Part insurrection, part happy hour, Trump supporters lost their minds, and I watched a man urinate on the Capitol steps. The nation, ashamed, was left to mourn.

“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. She was crying, hysterical. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:19 AM on January 7 [37 favorites]


yeah I understand that legally Congress has to be informed to invoke the 25th, but it's not like laws or norms have ever mattered to Republicans, and I can absolutely see a bunch of those panicked cowards trying to de facto invoke without having to deal with the consequences of telling anyone beyond the military / national security apparatus
posted by schadenfrau at 11:19 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Everyone talking about the 25th needs to remember that it's not really intended to remove a lucid President, and its limitations reflect that. Even if Pence + half the cabinet try to remove Trump, Trump can immediately object. At that point, it goes to Congress, and BOTH HOUSES have to agree with a two-thirds majority.

You could maybe convince me that two-thirds of the Senate would agree right now, but there's just no way you'll get two-thirds of the House to agree.
posted by nosewings at 11:20 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Notice who is not mentioned?

It's just as likely that Trump begrudgingly delegated the authority to make that call to Pence, at the time or in advance. Cheney wasn't in the direct chain of command either, but operated in that capacity.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:21 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. She was crying, hysterical. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.

I'm not gonna lie, but these fucking bullshit right wing tears are fucking making me feel good.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:21 AM on January 7 [76 favorites]


“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. She was crying, hysterical. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.

Oh man, we as a country are lost.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:22 AM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Everyone talking about the 25th needs to remember that it's not really intended to remove a lucid President, and its limitations reflect this. Even if Pence + half the cabinet try to remove Trump

In case of dispute, the acting President remains acting up to 14 days or until Congress acts.
posted by wierdo at 11:22 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


After they broke in and found no one, the insurrectionists roamed the capitol building looking for them, including checking offices for them

I think I would like to take this opportunity to thank the grace of God and Trump's own monstrousness for the lack of coherent, tactical people in that crowd with even a shred of an idea of red teaming.

I've been genuinely shaken by how far they got, and I think it's important to be clear about this. Some of them were armed. We are fortunate that the organized groups and organized militias who believe Trump was robbed of the Presidency do not seem to have coordinated on a plan - or in some cases, that dedicated anti-fascists have been fighting them long enough and hard enough to whittle their numbers. We are fortunate indeed that the woman who was breaking through the barricade behind which were members of our legislative body was alone, without an actual battering ram (commercially available trivially easily), and unarmed. We are fortunate that the actual evacuation plan was not broadly known.

Within mob violence is when organized violence finds the cover to act.

We came enormously, astoundingly close to an actual situation where legislators of the United States were pulled out of the halls of democracy and killed, because the police were pretty confident that 'Trump supporters would never do this.' Because their own biases and prejudices that white right-wing people would never do violence prevailed, despite their open statements that they would engage in violence.

We should not expect to always be fortunate, and should prepare accordingly.
posted by corb at 11:22 AM on January 7 [136 favorites]


Trump can immediately object. At that point, it goes to Congress, and BOTH HOUSES have to agree with a two-thirds majority.

As I found out in the other thread after having misread the procedure, they have 21 days to hold that vote in each chamber. Pelosi can just sleep on it and trump's out.
posted by mrgoat at 11:22 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Pelosi requests the resignation of the head of the Capitol Police.
posted by interogative mood at 11:23 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


I didn't think the third act of the Trump Presidency movie was going to involve Pence as the " Bad guy who can make a difference if he does the right thing and turns against his boss" character.

Pence has basically no political future but he does have a highly lucrative future in cashing in on his memoirs and speaking engagements, and the image of being the guy who did the right thing will sadly get him accepted in polite company and rehab his image for people with short memories like GWB's image has been.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:23 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


Super cool that he's been deemed too dangerous to have a Facebook account but he still has the nuclear codes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:23 AM on January 7 [34 favorites]


Because their own biases and prejudices that white right-wing people would never do violence prevailed

their own biases and prejudices that white right-wing people should be able to do violence prevailed.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:24 AM on January 7 [28 favorites]


She's also calling out the Republican members who are enabling Trump, specifically noting the "antifa did it" lies. She stopped short of actually calling for their expulsion from office, however.
posted by wierdo at 11:25 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


the image of being the guy who did the right thing will sadly get him accepted in polite company and rehab his image for people with short memories like GWB's image has been.

the only way we are getting out of this with democracy intact is if bad people do the right thing for the wrong reasons; we don't have to like it, but it's the only way this transition is going to work
posted by BungaDunga at 11:26 AM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Super cool that he's been deemed too dangerous to have a Facebook account but he still has the nuclear codes.

I don't think it's too far-fetched to wonder whether he's ever had the nuclear codes.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:26 AM on January 7 [20 favorites]


acting President remains acting up to 14 days or until Congress acts.

Right. If Trump contests it, Congress has to be convened to review it. Just as the riot was intended as a delaying action to prevent certification (whatever the rioters thought they were doing) the point of the 25th is that it would deprive Trump of decision making authority for long enough to end this circus.

Impeachment is preferable if only because it comes with the lifetime bar against holding future office.

Frankly, with Trump's announcement that he will facilitate a peaceful transition, I doubt either will actually happen. Unless Mitch calculates it's to his faction's benefit to foreclose a future for Trump despite the wrath of the Trumpist wing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:26 AM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I guess it's okay to give Pence & Co a chance to use the 25th, but I would have felt better about Pelosi's speech if she'd given them say a 24 hour ultimatum.
posted by saturday_morning at 11:27 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


And now she refers to the insurrectionists as "terrorists banging on the door." I've never seen her so obviously angry.
posted by wierdo at 11:28 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


NOT A COUP, soft or otherwise. i believe that's called executing your oath of office.

"Executing their oath of office" would be invoking the 25th amendment. Quietly bundling him off to Camp David under some threat is not that.
posted by muddgirl at 11:30 AM on January 7 [15 favorites]


Pence has basically no political future but he does have a highly lucrative future in cashing in on his memoirs and speaking engagements, and the image of being the guy who did the right thing will sadly get him accepted in polite company and rehab his image for people with short memories like GWB's image has been.

Yeah, GWB committed actual war crimes that led to the deaths of millions of people and he's getting hugged by every nice liberal under the sun.

I imagine when Ben Shapiro runs for office, Mike Pence and many of Trump's other enablers/minions will join the ranks of David Frum and Max Boot as just another Reasonable Voice Against The Radical Right (And Left).
posted by Ouverture at 11:30 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


"Trump thugs." I like it, Nancy. It's got a ring to it.
posted by valkane at 11:30 AM on January 7 [2 favorites]


The 25th is a such a great oppo for the GOP to scapegoat Trump and try to save their members from further repercussions. That they are not jumping at the chance says a lot about how far gone those Nazis are. The realpolitik of McConnell et al is being subsumed by the metastasizing Tea Party.
posted by lazaruslong at 11:30 AM on January 7 [28 favorites]


“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. She was crying, hysterical. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.

I believe the general sentiment is being felt among the MAGA crowd and probably voiced in much more hateful terms but damn this reads like a quote specifically written to be shared by liberals. I can believe she said it as written, it's not crazy by any means, but the wording is just so on the nose.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:30 AM on January 7 [29 favorites]


Honestly if impeachment and the 25th are not at least attempted, then what is even the point of these mechanisms? I mean, what more egregious behaviour would warrant their use?!
posted by piyushnz at 11:33 AM on January 7 [61 favorites]


A Democrat wearing an extra tan suit?
posted by lazaruslong at 11:34 AM on January 7 [43 favorites]


I'm sure this has been answered somewhere but can trump be charged for any of this after he's out of office?
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:34 AM on January 7


Now Lindsey Graham is speaking. He opened by calling the people involved in yesterday's takeover as terrorists. He's calling for resignations in the Capitol Police force. He isn't pulling any punches. Now he's shifting into both sides-ism.
posted by interogative mood at 11:34 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Too late Lindsey, the tar will not wash off of you that easily.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:36 AM on January 7 [15 favorites]


The truly maddening thing about Trump is that he has a career conman's sense of exactly how much he can get away with saying and still avoid repercussions. He even has a knack for knowing when repeatedly pushing to the line has actually moved the line out.

He will continue to do bullshit like call for calm while weirdly praising the insurrectionists. He will never give a statement that clearly forces his allies into supporting removing him. Never.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:37 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


Fuck you, Lindsey Graham - you enabled and encouraged that shithead and his followers for several years.
posted by PhineasGage at 11:37 AM on January 7 [11 favorites]




I do not understand these repeated comments on the semantics of "coup attempt". And I wish it would stop.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:37 AM on January 7 [62 favorites]


Now Lindsey Graham is speaking yt . He opened by calling the people involved in yesterday's takeover as terrorists. He's calling for resignations in the Capitol Police force. He isn't pulling any punches. Now he's shifting into both sides-ism.

He's taking his old form!
posted by schadenfrau at 11:38 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


About a minute into Lindsey Graham's press conference, his phone rang. He pulled it out immediately, looked at the screen, frowned, and turned off his phone. Feels familiar.
posted by theodolite at 11:39 AM on January 7 [13 favorites]


Three Florida Men arrested in connection with the mob action yesterday

*Three Floridas-Man
posted by saturday_morning at 11:39 AM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Would all these cabinet members be resigning today if the coup had succeeded yesterday?
posted by COD at 11:39 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]



Sorry, this was a coup attempt? A thousand or so internet-addled whites being escorted into the capitol building by the pigs to carve penises and swastikas into the chairs?


They were an ARMED MOB who were trying to violently stop a vote in a democratic peaceful transition of power. read corb's comment.
posted by lalochezia at 11:39 AM on January 7 [47 favorites]


I would imagine that they can do some data analytics on the license plates to figure out which were novel to the area using the thousands of license plate cameras, not only in DC, but in every city and highway in America and probably Canada.
posted by waving at 11:40 AM on January 7


He's taking his old form!

I believe the correct terminology is "shedding his old sleeve".
posted by piyushnz at 11:40 AM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Lindsey Graham doesn't think it's appropriate to invoke the 25th Amendment. Ridiculous.
posted by interogative mood at 11:40 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Is a COVID outbreak coming? More than 50 GOP members refused to where masks...

Yesterday during the insurrection Members of the House & Senate were evacuated into a shared space, where many #Republicans refused to wear #COVID19 masks. - Laurie Garrett (Twitter)
posted by rambling wanderlust at 11:40 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


I do not understand these repeated comments on the semantics of "coup attempt".

I think it's the Bargaining part of the grieving process.
posted by Drastic at 11:40 AM on January 7 [27 favorites]


> Sorry, this was a coup attempt? A thousand or so internet-addled whites being escorted into the capitol building by the pigs to carve penises and swastikas into the chairs?

Breaking into the Capitol and carving swastikas into the chairs... the day a Jewish democrat is elected to senate? I would feel threatened if I were Ossoff. This is intimidation.

You don't need to stand up for white supremacists.
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 11:41 AM on January 7 [97 favorites]


Graham called Raffensperger to pressure him over the GA election. Fuck off forever, buddy.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:41 AM on January 7 [50 favorites]


Lindsey Graham doesn't think it's appropriate to invoke the 25th Amendment.

Fair enough. Looking forward to your impeachment vote then
posted by saturday_morning at 11:42 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


CBS Evening News
@CBSEveningNews
"So if the vice president won't invoke the 25th Amendment, Congress should come back in immediately and impeach the president," soon to be Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says, adding that he and Speaker Pelosi tried to call VP Pence this morning and "tell him to do this."
posted by bluesky43 at 11:42 AM on January 7 [15 favorites]


The danger is that the state will use these events to expand its current violent right wing activity, and I'm disappointed that the class of anxious, pathologically retributive professionals that pass for the left here wants to give them the mandate to do so.

Hey at least you'd get the satisfaction of feeling ideologically pure if they pulled it off and started coming for all of us
posted by jason_steakums at 11:42 AM on January 7 [16 favorites]


The 25th was put in place to avoid the anarchy that attempted coup of removing the President that the VP is understood to be the next in line. LBJ with the Kennedy assassination sworn in on the plane. This wasn't considered for the mob uprisings or online petition to incite removal. He was removed in an election. Wait for the inauguration to come and the powers transfer. Calling for the VP to exercise is saying he has the votes from Cabinet, which I doubt he has considered.
posted by brent at 11:42 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


For whatever little it's worth, DC is currently under an official state of emergency for the next thirty days, which means the DC National Guard will stay mobilized until then.

Which means absolutely nothing. The DC mayor can declare a state of emergency but he has no authority over the DC National Guard. The DC National Guard is under the direction of the president.

This is different from states where the governor has authority over the local National Guard. No so for DC because DC is not a state. The president is the controlling authority -- which is why no National Guard was authorized before the coup attempt even though the mayor asked.
posted by JackFlash at 11:43 AM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Trump has been attempting a coup since the election. Yesterday was one part of that coup attempt. Arguing about that is Trump apologism just the same as the Republican traitors claiming that it was Antifa.
posted by muddgirl at 11:43 AM on January 7 [24 favorites]


"So if the vice president won't invoke the 25th Amendment, Congress should come back in immediately and impeach the president," soon to be Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says, adding that he and Speaker Pelosi tried to call VP Pence this morning and "tell him to do this."

Schumer goes on to say that Pence would not take their call. What a traitor.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:44 AM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Fuck off, Snowden.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:45 AM on January 7 [26 favorites]


Josh Dawsey and Felicia Somnez in WaPo’s live updates at 8:43 AM:
Trump briefly called in to the Republican National Committee’s winter meeting Thursday morning — and received a loud and overwhelmingly enthusiastic reception when RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel put him on speakerphone, according to people in the room.
“We love you!” some in the room yelled.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:46 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


traitorous white supremacists, all of them, all the way down.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:47 AM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Gentle reminder that Snowden was always a free-speech libertarian.

Let's not forget who he chose to give the files to and the path that fuckin guy has taken.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:47 AM on January 7 [31 favorites]


Fuck off, Snowden.

My dude, Facebook has always had this power, and you have found it convenient kayfabe to pretend they didn’t.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:48 AM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Someone at the top of the post mentioned that military weapons and tactics have a way of returning to the imperial core.

“Fascism is simply imperialism turned inward”, I think is Andray Domise’ description.
posted by mhoye at 11:48 AM on January 7 [12 favorites]


Schumer goes on to say that Pence would not take their call. What a traitor.

Proof that the only reason he turned on Trump was simple self-preservation and fear because Mother wasn't around to protect him.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:50 AM on January 7 [1 favorite]


A War Photographer Embeds With the Capitol Hill Mob
Ron Haviv, who once covered a coup attempt in Panama, followed rioters through a broken window into the seat of his own nation’s legislative branch.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:51 AM on January 7 [12 favorites]


"Which means absolutely nothing. The DC mayor can declare a state of emergency but he has no authority over the DC National Guard. The DC National Guard is under the direction of the president."

Virginia's National Guard troops that were sent into DC yesterday are staying through the inauguration. They are under the control of the DC Mayor. I assume but have not verified that Maryland's troops are also staying in town.
posted by COD at 11:51 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


This is different from states where the governor has authority over the local National Guard. No so for DC because DC is not a state. The president is the controlling authority -- which is why no National Guard was authorized before the coup attempt even though the mayor asked.

I'm holding out a bit of hope that this keeps DC statehood alive. I know it's thought to be hopeless because of the bare majority in the Senate, but after these events it has to stay on the table. Manchin may oppose nuking the filibuster for legislation, but could he be convinced to support it for the narrower indication of admitting a state? (Or two.)
posted by saturday_morning at 11:52 AM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Meanwhile, linked from The Takeout: Someone fed all the hungry, hiding members of Congress yesterday

Quote from WaPo (linked in article):
“Somehow, Capitol food service operations still appeared to be up and running through the melee. At 4 p.m. and 5 p.m., hundreds of box lunches and bottles of water were rolled into the holding spot. Senators, staff, media and police wielding automatic weapons grabbed lunches of chicken and beef.”
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:54 AM on January 7 [55 favorites]


A War Photographer Embeds With the Capitol Hill Mob
Ron Haviv, who once covered a coup attempt in Panama, followed rioters through a broken window into the seat of his own nation’s legislative branch.


I often complain at organizing leftists for not having better OpSec, but holy shit these people are as oblivious as can be.

I guess you would have to be to think Bill Gates is going to track you with a microchip installed through a vaccine that you learned all about from the surveillance device in your front pocket.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:55 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


[One comment deleted. If you think the invasion yesterday was not a big deal, and/or you're here to insult other members, please step away and let this thread continue.]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:55 AM on January 7 [49 favorites]


Good for the Capitol food service staff. The show must go on.
posted by all about eevee at 11:55 AM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Pelosi requests the resignation of the head of the Capitol Police.

This I was glad to see, because I find it amazing he wasn't gone by this morning. It was at a minimum a horrendous failure of the most basic role of the Capitol Police, and at worst a deliberate conspiracy.
posted by tavella at 11:55 AM on January 7 [33 favorites]


I went back on Facebook for all of 12 hours to post about this. What drove me off? My leftist friends, who have their heads almost as far up their own assess as the MAGA-hats. "Wouldn't it be great if we could do this for climate change?" "The Democrats' weak response will blah, blah, blah." I swear it feels like they hate themselves, each other, progressives, and centrists more than they hate the people who stormed the Capitol. And they wonder why people won't vote for a Democratic Socialist. FFS.

Can't we all unite against what happened for at least a couple of days? (Talking out loud to my Facebook friends, not Metafilter)
posted by freecellwizard at 11:59 AM on January 7 [33 favorites]


Worth mentioning that my friend says his mom **WHO PERSONALLY TOOK PART IN THE INSURRECTION BECAUSE SHE IS A DIE HARD TRUMP SUPPORTER** is now saying that antifa is to blame. -- @TooMuchMe, talking about a friend's 60 year old Cuban-born mother who invaded Congress yesterday.
posted by wierdo at 12:02 PM on January 7 [48 favorites]


I don't understand the need to wait for Pence to impeach. He already refused to speak to them today, Chao resigned so that she doesn't have to be responsible, and there are still armed thugs looking to hunt Congresspeople. Are all the members of both chambers (or just the Dems if that's your thing) secure? Soon-to-be terrorist sympathizers approached Mitt Romney all by himself in an airport before the insurrection, what's to stop them from doing worse if individual members are out and about?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:03 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


We do need to righteously enforce the old order and the old punishments against miscreants, but we need to keep in mind that the old order is gone, and will fall apart in our hands as we try to use it, because collectively as a nation we threw it away.

That bell cannot be un-rung: the Nazis wanted to blow the Gjallarhorn to announce the beginning of Ragnarök, and that's what they did by electing Trump many years past now.

The FBI, etc., don't really exist any more. There's a serial gang rapist as a justice on the Supreme Court. The old institutions have no legitimacy; we threw it away; and they cannot save us.

What we need is advice from the many other nations around the world who have done this sort of thing to themselves in the past: how to begin again.
posted by XMLicious at 12:03 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


handful of datapoints concerning intention [paraphrasing]:

rudy guiliani voicemail calling on senators to delay until... we're ready?; lets have trial by combat, at precoup rally.
gosar: denied remedy at courts we need to be as violent as [groups that scan, to him & his audience as violent menaces]
cawthorn: i'll fight; you fight. we'll show the cowards at the capitol, at precoup rally.
donald t[nope]: precoup rally and everything else
pretty much every other speaker at precoup rally
all of twitter
zip ties; gallows...

more examples are easily found.

as i understand it, in general, the brownshirts, shock troops and cannon fodder are not privy to the plans for wielding power once it has been seized; their job is to unseat power, create the vacuum for leaders with plan to fill.
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:06 PM on January 7 [18 favorites]


Worth mentioning that my friend says his mom **WHO PERSONALLY TOOK PART IN THE INSURRECTION BECAUSE SHE IS A DIE HARD TRUMP SUPPORTER** is now saying that antifa is to blame.

And this is why all the congressional conspirators will breeze on to re-election when the time comes. The "antifa did it" spin will be firmly locked into the conservative hivemind and nothing will budge it.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:07 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


Worth mentioning that my friend says his mom **WHO PERSONALLY TOOK PART IN THE INSURRECTION BECAUSE SHE IS A DIE HARD TRUMP SUPPORTER** is now saying that antifa is to blame. -

Not original from me, but seems to explain it better than anything else.

In eyes of Trumpists, they are Schrodinger's protestors … simultaneously loyal Trump patriots and "fascist/socialist" antifa. That is, until you make a comment about them, and then the quantum state settles on one or the other, depending on which reality better supports their position. So it was antifa that stormed the Capitol, but loyal patriots who broke through the doors of tyranny. Patriots checked the offices for evidence, and antifa invaded secure spaces of Congress. Who sprayed police with mace and beat them with a flag? Antifa, of course. When police responded, the protestors became patriots again, who were oppressed by the state.
Really, they think antifa is like the Agents in the Matrix films … they take over the bodies of well-meaning patriots to do mischief … and then pop out leaving poor deplorables to take the undeserved blame.
posted by COD at 12:07 PM on January 7 [80 favorites]


Pelosi requests the resignation of the head of the Capitol Police.

I am so tired of the good guys politely asking for bad guys to step down. It's a relic of the polite, genteel administration that hasn't existed for years.

How many times have we heard "maybe Trump will resign after...?" Only people with integrity do this and they're all gone.

The people who served in Trump's administration that resigned in protest? Trump proclaims that he fired them to the cheers of his base. He sets the narrative. His supporters are emboldened by swift action, not of polite requests. This brings them to today, where they chose direct action.

(I am aware that Pelosi probably does not have the power to fire anyone)
posted by meowzilla at 12:08 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


> The 25th ... wasn't ... for the mob uprisings or online petition to incite removal. Wait for the inauguration to come and the powers transfer. -- posted by brent

Relevant? tweet by Not A Wolf.
posted by MiraK at 12:09 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


also: thanks, MetaFilter, for getting me -- broadly informed -- through another damn crisis. love you in good times; need you in these times.
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:09 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]


Can't we all unite against what happened for at least a couple of days? (Talking out loud to my Facebook friends, not Metafilter)

I don't know or agree with your leftist friends (I don't know any leftist organizers who are saying this at all because we all know we'd be killed/imprisoned for a very long time), but I do think it's kind of funny you're wishing for unification from people you are also insulting at the same time.

I wouldn't want to unite with them either.
posted by Ouverture at 12:11 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


> “Fascism is simply imperialism turned inward”, I think is Andray Domise’ description. -- posted by mhoye

Due to Covid-19 travel restrictions, this year the US will organize coups at home.
posted by MiraK at 12:12 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]


In one of yesterday's smaller stories, an outgoing Georgia state rep Vernon Jones has switched from Democrat to Republican. Not a big surprise--he endorsed Trump in 2020 and spoke at the RNC.

Late yesterday morning, at a Stop the Steal protest at the Georgia state house: "I want to make clear about one thing. Donald Trump has just begun. I'm a part of his team. And we're going to take back this country."

He credits the MyPillow guy for giving him courage (this is the part where, if I was saying this to you in person, I'd make that money gesture with my fingers) to fight "those demon Democrats."
posted by box at 12:13 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


If you find yourself drifting toward Team It Wasn't a Big Deal or Even a Real Coup, let me introduce you to your new teammate, John Catanzara, the President of the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:14 PM on January 7 [43 favorites]


Vernon Jones is the wikipedia photo for "The face eating leopards won't eat my face!"
posted by Fleebnork at 12:16 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


He was removed in an election. Wait for the inauguration to come and the powers transfer.

Hah? It sounds like you're saying that he was removed and that we should wait. He was not removed! He is still there! The American People Have Spoken, sure, but the whole removal part doesn't happen for several days. Hence that whole thing you're saying about "Wait." Which sounds so reasonable and genteel! It really does! But then you live through yesterday and even if you somehow hadn't figured it out from everything that's happened since 2016, living through yesterday helps you realize "Wait" doesn't actually work. Not, at least, if one of your aims is to not get gutted by a Gadsden flag spear or ziptied and thrown in the back of a red white and blue Hummer along with a bunch of purloined statesmen statuary and "rescued" ballots.

For one among a myriad of things,

The DC mayor can declare a state of emergency but he [sic] has no authority over the DC National Guard. The DC National Guard is under the direction of the president.


Did you want them to "Wait" for the sitting president to order out the DC National Guard tonight when everybody who spent the post-riot pounding Jack and Coke comes back for Pence and whoever?
posted by Don Pepino at 12:17 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


In some unsurprising news, NYT reports that Trump has been discussing a self-pardon.
posted by theodolite at 12:20 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


correction to "handful of datapoints" above: it was gohmert, not gosar, who called for violence. think i heard some nonsense from gosar too. hard to keep the ghouls straight. apologies.
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:21 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Former chief of staff John Kelly comes to a long-delayed conclusion:

“We need to look infinitely harder at who we elect to any office in our land — at the office seeker’s character, at their morals, at their ethical record, their integrity, their honesty, their flaws, what they have said about women, and minorities, why they are seeking office in the first place, and only then consider the policies they espouse."


Josh Hawley: "I'm your guy!"
posted by JackFlash at 12:21 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


so its not a crazy position to take (and is actually the right one!).

Or... Call me crazy, due to the nature and technology involved in the situation, this was actually a very new type of "coup" and perhaps our language should evolve to understand it as such instead of listening to a bunch of old farts who are screaming "but it doesn't fit the dictionary definition based on a world where social media didn't fucking exist and mailing a letter to the next town took two months."

Yes, language evolves. It will have to evolve to address this as a type of attempted coup.

I had enough of this pedantic dictionary definition bullshit when it comes to the fucking conservatives who are super hung up on words they don't actually know the definition to when they won't shut up about "Democracy" versus "Republic." Fuck this garbage attitude.

Language changes, get over it.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:22 PM on January 7 [64 favorites]


We don't let people walk for attempted murder because they had a shitty plan and bad aim.

Or let them off with a warning because they're just good patriotic boys who got a bit carried away.

They had a series of attempted coups in 1930s Japan where the authorities made the same mistake, mollycoddling the far-right plotters because their hearts were obviously in the right place, which only led to them or others trying again, and killing more people.
posted by acb at 12:22 PM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Let's just agree this is one of those "Experts in field are sad the common layman uses their term incorrectly" type deals and move on from the "it's is (not) a real coup!" thing.
posted by sideshow at 12:23 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


But then you live through yesterday and even if you somehow hadn't figured it out from everything that's happened since 2016, living through yesterday helps you realize "Wait" doesn't actually work.

Nailed it. Yes, he only has 13 days left in office, but do you want even one of those days to be like yesterday? Or worse?

Trump needs to be removed from power, now. Let Pence and the Cabinet run things for the last 13 days.
posted by vitout at 12:23 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


The word government implies a monopoly on force. Strictly speaking, the United States did not have a government for a few hours yesterday. We had to ask the coup questions:
- who controls WHICH security services and other armed factions? What degree of control do they have?
- who controls the physical security of important political figures?
- who controls the narrative of legitimacy? In particular, who controls the media?

Note that at the decisive moment the balance of force may have been tipped by Secret Service agents loyal to the Vice President. Had he left by a different door, many members of Congress might now be in the hands of the mob or dead.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:23 PM on January 7 [35 favorites]


The DC mayor can declare a state of emergency but he has no authority over the DC National Guard. The DC National Guard is under the direction of the president.

She. DC's mayor is named Muriel Bowser, and she did what she could.

If you don't live here (and perhaps even if you do) you might not have any idea how police jurisdiction works in DC. The Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) only has jurisdiction over land where the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction. The Capitol building and its grounds are under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Capitol Police, and security officers under the Senate and House Sergeants at Arms. The land where the supposedly peaceful rallies and/or protests had permits was land administered by the National Park Service, and thus under jurisdiction of the U.S. Park Police. Requests for the DC National Guard have to be approved by the DOD.

(I'm leaving aside other agencies with enforcement jurisdiction in some or all of DC like the Secret Service and postal inspectors and who knows what all … IIRC the total number of police agencies that can arrest you for something in DC is nine, but I can't keep track and usually don't need to know)

USPP was the primary entity securing the scheduled protest. Capitol Police were responsible for barriers and staffing at the Capitol. In downtown DC MPD is basically responsible for … non federal office buildings and DC streets. MPD had a plan (and a new chief), but MPD can't enforce anything on Capitol or NPS lands unless they're asked. The mayor and MPD had requested activation of the Guard, but the request was slow-walked for some reason, which I'm sure will be investigated (but too late to help). Capitol Police, despite a supposedly "robust plan," were unprepared and understaffed. They eventually requested (and got) Guard support, but not until after the Capitol was already under siege.

There are two huge failures here, mostly on the part of the Capitol Police: (1) they were understaffed and underprepared for something with plenty of obvious warning signs; (2) partly due to the first failure they weren't prepared to arrest all the people occupying the Capitol. They should have cordoned off the perimeter and arrested everybody inside it without authorization (like a badge or a legitimate press pass) on the spot, instead of putting the FBI in the position of having to ask for evidence and tips. That made too large a mess that MPD had to try to clean up on its own overnight. MPD apparently arrested 50 or more people last night, and the thing I read (I thought in the Post but I can't find it again) said only one of them was a DC resident.
posted by fedward at 12:24 PM on January 7 [51 favorites]


A repeat from last thread, but I'm gushing with pride that I'm represented by Cori Bush.
(no longer do I have to rage with envy at AOC's constituents.)
posted by notsnot at 12:26 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Trump Is Said to Have Discussed Pardoning Himself
As aides urged Mr. Trump to issue a strong condemnation on Wednesday and he rejected that advice, the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he could face legal exposure for the riot given that he had urged his supporters to march to the Capitol and “fight” beforehand, according to people briefed on the discussion. The president had appeared to White House aides to be enjoying watching the scenes play out on television.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:28 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Nearly scholars of coups I know are firmly on the side of "this is not a coup", so its not a crazy position to take (and is actually the right one!).

Ugh. Semantics. It's an autocoup. Happy?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:29 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Nearly [all of the] scholars of coups I know are firmly on the side of "this is not a coup", so its not a crazy position to take (and is actually the right one!).

Ruth Ben-Ghiat, author of Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present: I published this@cnn piece soon after Trump's inauguration. It argued that he had come to power to take down our democracy and we should see his presidency as a slo-mo coup. The assault on the Capitol is the culmination of this process.
posted by No Robots at 12:29 PM on January 7 [37 favorites]


. The president had appeared to White House aides to be enjoying watching the scenes play out on television.

I like how they continue to pretend how shocked they are at this.

I knew this is who he was in the year fucking 2000. Where the hell has everybody the fuck else been??
posted by deadaluspark at 12:29 PM on January 7 [38 favorites]


Nearly scholars of coups I know I know are firmly on the side of "this is not a coup"

Paul Musgrave disagrees. Larry Sabato and others also have also called this a coup

I don't think the scholars have formed a consensus on what this was yet.
posted by interogative mood at 12:33 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Re co-conspirator Hawley, Heather Cox Richardson's Letter from An American, Jan. 6, "Today the Confederate flag flew in the United States Capitol" notes that heading to the session, Sen. Josh Hawley saluted the mob with a power fist as he passed them on the east side of the Capitol.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:34 PM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Heather Cox Richardson, FB Live recordings:

Response to the January 6 Coup Attempt

In which we examine the coup...
posted by jon1270 at 12:35 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Paul's a friend but isn't a coup scholar, FWIW.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:35 PM on January 7


New YouGov poll conducted Wednesday evening is, haha, fuuuuck
  • 62% see the attack as a threat to democracy, including 93% of Democrats and 55% of Independents
  • Among Republicans, however, only 27% think this should be considered a threat to democracy, with 68% saying otherwise.
  • many Republicans (45%) actively support the actions of those at the Capitol, although as many expressed their opposition (43%). Overall, one in five voters (21%) say they support the goings-on at the Capitol.
  • While 59% of voters who are aware of the events at the Capitol perceive them as being more violent than more peaceful (28%), the opposite is true of Republicans. By 58% to 22%, Republicans see the goings on as more peaceful than more violent.
  • A majority (55%) say that President Trump is “a great deal to blame” for the actions of those who charged the Capitol, with 11% saying he is “somewhat to blame”. About 42% also say that the Republicans who said that they would vote against certifying the election results are “a great deal to blame”, and 20% think they are “somewhat to blame”. Far fewer voters think President-elect Joe Biden is a great deal (17%) or somewhat (9%) to blame.
  • That being said, Biden is the biggest culprit in the eyes of Republicans, at 52%, compared to 28% for Donald Trump and 26% for the Congressional Republicans who opposed certification of the election results.
  • Half (50%) of voters agree it would be appropriate for Donald Trump to be removed from office immediately because of what happened today. Another 42% believe that such an action would be inappropriate. Republicans (85%) are especially likely to say they believe this would be inappropriate.
  • About half (52%) of voters agree with the “extremist” label, the most commonly selected of all the terms we put to respondents. Nearly as many (49%) think “domestic terrorists” is an appropriate title, and 41% consider them “criminals.” Only about one in seven (15%) agreed with the “patriot” label, although this rises to 30% of Republicans and 40% among those who think there was enough fraud at the election last year to change the outcome.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:35 PM on January 7 [16 favorites]


What does the Capitol look like right now? Is it heavily surrounded by National Guard and Riot police? Or back to a minimal Capitol Police presence?
posted by Paul Slade at 12:36 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


If this was a coup, by whatever definition you think applies:

* Pence and the Cabinet must invoke the 25th
* Congress must begin impeachment proceedings
* GOP inciters, sympathizers, and enablers in Congress and the Trump administration must be expelled and prosecuted
* Participants in yesterday's insurrection must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

If this was not a coup, by whatever definition you think applies:

* Pence and the Cabinet must invoke the 25th
* Congress must begin impeachment proceedings
* GOP inciters, sympathizers, and enablers in Congress and the Trump administration must be expelled and prosecuted
* Participants in yesterday's insurrection must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

Can we please move on from this derail so the already-unwieldy thread can discuss more substantive matters?
posted by tonycpsu at 12:37 PM on January 7 [103 favorites]


We can just call it sparkling putsch and move on.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:39 PM on January 7 [51 favorites]


Quacks like a duck.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:39 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


I haven't read this whole thread, or the other, but I did see that the Malheur occupation was mentioned and that's what I was thinking about all day yesterday. Today, Leah Sottile, producer of the Bundyville podcast writes All Bets Are Off and ruminates on the connections between these two occupations.
posted by a Rrose by any other name at 12:40 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


If it doesn't come from the Coup region of France, it's not a coup. It's just sparkling sedition.
posted by mrgoat at 12:41 PM on January 7 [150 favorites]


it's annoying, on-brand, and in a weird way a little endearing that there's a derail on whether this technically qualifies as a coup under the currently accepted definition. let's stick it in the "not really treason" box though yeah?
posted by lazaruslong at 12:43 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


So far right white supremacist chucklefucks organized and bombed the Alfred P Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City back in 1995. I was 13. I am now 39. At what point do we take right wing white supremacists seriously?

Yesterday they breached the Capitol, which even confederate traitors never managed to do. Can we take it seriously now? Do some congresspeople have to die first? How many til we can take it seriously? 5? 10? Tell me the magic serious number.

The thing that makes me scream into the void is that these people have been terrorizing and brutalizing Black people for literally centuries at this point. White Americans in general have collectively ignored it or gone along with it. Wasn’t happening to us right? So too bad, so sad for anyone else. Let’s make concerned faces and then go back to living our lives. Don’t want to make Thanksgiving awkward. Don’t want to be uncomfortable around that one coworker.

Maybe if we had strongly stood up to other shitty white people and put the fucking hammer down on them when they started in with their “I’m not racist buuuuut...” bullshit, let alone anything more virulent, we wouldn’t be where we are today. This should never ever ever have been acceptable.
posted by supercrayon at 12:44 PM on January 7 [58 favorites]


Seen on fb:

"It's only a coup if it's from the Coup d'état region of France otherwise it's just sparkling white terrorism."
posted by bz at 12:45 PM on January 7 [38 favorites]


“I’m telling you, as a Republican, I don’t support an effort to invoke the 25th Amendment now,” [Lindsay] Graham said at a Capitol news conference. “If something else happens, all options would be on the table.”

If something else happens

iF sOmEtHiNg ElSe HaPpEnS
posted by saturday_morning at 12:45 PM on January 7 [60 favorites]


[ A few comments deleted for violating the guidelines, particularly: Be sensitive to context. Any more nitpicking over the definition of "coup" in this thread should stop.]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:46 PM on January 7 [25 favorites]


@Corb: I've been genuinely shaken by how far they got,

Our military allies think the evidence on the video points to the fact that senior Federal law enforcement may have been in on the coup, because there is an internationally standardized playbook for situations like this. International senior officials train together and know exactly what was supposed to be done. They didn’t see that happen.

Those cops were taking selfies with the terrorists and just opened up the gates and rolled over. That wasn’t incompetence, that was allyship.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:47 PM on January 7 [83 favorites]


"I hope, going forward, that January 6th will be observed yearly as a national day of I told you so." -- J. Elvis Weinstein
posted by valkane at 12:47 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]


hi I'm from Metafilter and I can overthink a plate of guillotines
posted by benzenedream at 12:47 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]






10 U.S. Code § 894 - Art. 94. Mutiny or sedition (UCMJ)

(a) "Any person subject to this chapter who—

(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuse, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.

(b)A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
How many active military and retirees still subject to the UCMJ attended yesterday?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 12:49 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Everyone, please remember that there are people checking into these threads to see if there are any substantial updates. Try to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high. If you feel like you need to do something, then go take a walk, pet your cat, hug your family members, listen to some music, or something else in the real world, and find some other venue to determine the exact metaphysical qualities of the Platonic Ideal Coup.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:50 PM on January 7 [43 favorites]


those heads of executive agencies who fail to invoke the 25th now and prevent president khorosho from issuing pardons are culpable, in addition to all the foregoing for which they are culpable, in letting planners and participants escape justice, and hence, all their future sedition and crime.
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:50 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


> If you saw the video of the Metropolitan PD at night, they were not taking any shit from the protesters/rioters that were violating curfew. As one Twitter comment put it, “The night shift run different”. There was a very different vibe and tactics from how the Capitol Police treated the situation in the day. The MPD footage looked very much like how BLM were treated.

1 & 2.
posted by homunculus at 12:53 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


We've been getting a NYT paper copy for the past couple weeks (my roommate's buddy moved and instead of cancelling his subscription outright, just changed his delivery address to ours, and will let us read it until it runs out). I was very curious to see how they would report on this - and am pleased to report that their headline, in inch-and-a-half caps, was simply "TRUMP INCITES MOB".

I also had physical therapy today, and confessed to my therapist that I had neglected to do my regular exercises yesterday - but added that I though that perhaps "I was watching to see if our nation's government was going to collapse" might be an acceptable excuse. She agreed. ....My boss, however, disagreed when I told him about that - "this may all be more of a reason to double down, in case you have to suddenly run all the way to Canada or something."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:54 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]



[Trumpist] appropriates Mark of the Outsider from Dishonored, mistaken for hammer and sickle.

Turns into a good rant about the gamer to fascist pipeline.


Yes, a federal LEO (Novacop on Parler; bravely hunkered down in his mountain home) made that mistake.
posted by jgirl at 12:56 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


For black people, Wednesday was just another day in America (Michael Harriot for The Root)
Perhaps, one day, someone will rank this day right up there with the election of Donald Trump, but not higher than when Breonna Taylor was shot for not being a drug dealer but lower than the father-son lynching team who would have been at this rally if they weren’t in jail for shooting Ahmaud Arbery for not burglarizing a home, which still ranks near the time 74 million people voted for a white supremacist president. But they pale in comparison to that time when the president of the United States said something racist. And I know you’re asking: “Which time?”

Exactly.
posted by box at 12:57 PM on January 7 [39 favorites]


Metafilter: Can we please move on from this derail so the already-unwieldy thread can discuss more substantive matters?
posted by Epixonti at 12:58 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


"I haven't read this whole thread, or the other, but I did see that the Malheur occupation was mentioned and that's what I was thinking about all day yesterday. Today, Leah Sottile, producer of the Bundyville podcast writes All Bets Are Off and ruminates on the connections between these two occupations.
posted by a Rrose by any other name at 8:40 PM on January 7
"

The gap between Trumpers and the 'sovereign citizen' movement has been getting narrower and narrower. Even though true sovcits reject any notion of government, Trump's refusal to consent to be bound by any law he disagrees with, his refusal pay taxes, his rejection of science, and his general contempt for the rules - both written and unwritten - that most people agree to live by has made him a hero in their eyes.
posted by essexjan at 1:00 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


I am concerned for the safety of Biden and Harris, now and for years to come. I no longer trust the Secret Service to be politically neutral and do their best to protect the President and Vice President. We've failed to treat these fascists as a serious threat and only their incompetent leadership saved us yesterday.
posted by tommasz at 1:02 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


I wonder how much time was spent during historical coups debating if, in fact, it was a coup they were actually going through.
posted by mazola at 1:02 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


[Seriously, move on from coup semantics.]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:03 PM on January 7 [39 favorites]


As far as first-drafts-of-history go, here's how today's front pages are covering events:

PRO-TRUMP MOB STORMS US CAPITOL
INSURRECTION
CHAOS AT THE CAPITOL
PRO-TRUMP MOB INVADES CAPITOL
TRUMP RIOT STORMS CAPITOL
CAPITOL ATTACK SHAKES NATION
MOB RULE IN DC
DEMOCRACY ATTACKED
CAPITOL BESIEGED
ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY
CHAOS, VIOLENCE, MOCKERY
PRO-TRUMP MOB OCCUPIES CONGRESS
TRUMP-INCITED MOB ATTACKS THE CAPITOL
CAPITOL INVADED
TRUMP INCITES MOB
ATTEMPTED COUP
CHAOS REIGNS IN DC
ACTS OF SEDITION
A NATIONAL EMBARRASSMENT
HAVOC ON THE HILL

And after an extensive debate, Wikipedia has a comprehensive article on the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol.
posted by Rhaomi at 1:03 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


Now Lindsey Graham is speaking ...

Ole Huckleberry is in the process of delicately disengaging his lamprey lips from Trump's now desiccated ass and seeking a new succulent host of power.
posted by JackFlash at 1:04 PM on January 7 [21 favorites]


I knew from the git go yesterday morning that, like November 22, 1963 and September 11, 2001, it was a day like those two. I will remember where I was, what I ate and what I did. Which was stare at my television in horror when not staring at my phone in equal horror. Horror and fright. Which is where still I am today.
posted by y2karl at 1:06 PM on January 7 [16 favorites]




CNN reporting that Senate Sergeant-At-Arms Michael Stenger is submitting his resignation.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:07 PM on January 7 [25 favorites]


Lindsey Graham and Joe Biden have been friends outside the House for decades. Or at least they were, I'm guessing the previous four years have done a number on that. Looks like Graham has his eye on the main chance again.
posted by essexjan at 1:08 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


I don't understand the need to wait for Pence to impeach.

The 25th could be invoked today. Impeachment takes longer, even with an extremely accelerated schedule. It's a goddamned emergency, so it's not unreasonable to pressure Pence and the cabinet to just get it done already.
posted by wierdo at 1:10 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Is Trump going to Camp David akin to holing-up in the bunker? It’s probably the safest place not in DC, and is pretty removed from prying eyes or angry voices.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:11 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


After the election, Biden talked some shit about Graham selling out for Trump, so I'm not so sure Graham is getting re-invited to the weekly Bro Thursdays poker game.
posted by sideshow at 1:12 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


He'll go to Mar-a-Lago. If he's not there already.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:14 PM on January 7


> The 25th could be invoked today. Impeachment takes longer, even with an extremely accelerated schedule. It's a goddamned emergency, so it's not unreasonable to pressure Pence and the cabinet to just get it done already.

What is unreasonable is the leader of a majority-Democratic chamber of the legislature going into recess and then saying "it's urgent that a bunch of Trump-appointed hacks do the right thing." At the very least, pursuing impeachment in tandem with efforts to marshal support for the 25th would show that they're willing to take the same political hit that they're asking the Republicans to.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:15 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]


Trump hates Camp David and almost never goes there except for ceremonial occasions. It is quite peculiar for him to go there at this point in time.

Is he sedated and under observation or is he hiding from insurrection in his own White House?
posted by JackFlash at 1:16 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Okay, this is a probably a “duh” question and might have already been covered 864 comments ago. But is there anything to keep the Biden administration from going after Trump for sedition once he’s out of office? (So even if impeachment or the 25th isn’t invoked, we can still Send A Message against allowing this shit to happen again)
posted by gtrwolf at 1:17 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I don't understand the need to wait for Pence to impeach.

If Congress does it, the vote will not be entirely party-line (many Republicans will cross over), but it will have a large unapologetic fascist bloc in the House. It is questionable whether it will reach 2/3 in the Senate; one would like to think that yesterday's atrocity would be sufficient, but there will surely be Republicans with Strong Concerns [tm John McCain] about Trump's actions but who are unwilling to commit to such an action (read as: please don't shoot me.)

If Pence and the Cabinet do it, it has the effect of (a) taking effect immediately and (b) not requiring an immediate vote.
posted by delfin at 1:19 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Camp David has the distinction of being a military outpost inside a state park in a relatively remote part of Maryland. That's an infinitely easier thing to secure than the President's own personal business in a Florida city that is open to the general public.
posted by mmascolino at 1:19 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


He'll go to Mar-a-Lago. If he's not there already.

It was reported earlier that he was going to Camp David for the weekend.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:19 PM on January 7


But is there anything to keep the Biden administration from going after Trump for sedition once he’s out of office?

Self-pardon, or a pardon from Pence?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:20 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Congress is out of session.

Any words about imminent danger and impeachment are window dressing until they go back into session to debate & vote on articles. Which they should do immediately.
posted by Dashy at 1:21 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


I don't think it can be understated gotta dangerous this was, and how bad security was. The only reason we have a living Congress right now is the insurrectionists were disorganized and incompetent. A group of better trained terrorists could have moved quickly enough to capture and massacre members of Congress before anything was done to stop them.

When I read A Handmaid's Tale, I thought Atwood tracing the beginning of the theocrat revolution to the machine-gunning of Congress by terrorists was far-fetched.

Not anymore.
posted by Gelatin at 1:23 PM on January 7 [83 favorites]


I'd hazard a guess he's going to Camp David because it's private. He doesn't want to deal with other people (even his own sycophantic club members) now that he's an official loser.
posted by valkane at 1:25 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


TSHBO: apparently there’s some doubt as to whether a self pardon would actually be valid (untested waters, etc.). And even if Pence is unwilling to go along with the 25th, chances are the past 48 hours have soured Pence on pardoning Trump if the latter leaves office early.
posted by gtrwolf at 1:27 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


I've been looking at the award-winning Taking a Stand in Baton Rouge photo (from a BLM protest in Louisiana in 2016) a lot since yesterday afternoon.

Going back and forth from that image to various images from the right wing terrorist attack yesterday.

Back and forth -- thinking how you could place the Baton Rouge image next to any of several different photos from yesterday's event and say "The differences between these two pictures pretty much sum up the entirety of American history."

A good way to get insight into a person's approach to American politics, I've decided, is to show them the Baton Rouge image and ask them who they see as powerful in the photo and why.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:28 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]


I was told by an officer I spoke to that they didn't arrest most of the people leaving the Capitol because they were trying to secure the scene and they were overwhelmed by them and a little frightened of them.

that's a nice story.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:28 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


I'd hazard a guess he's going to Camp David because it's private.

He is being isolated and removed from the levers of power.

This is as close to exile as our government can get for the next 14 days.

President in name only now.
posted by Max Power at 1:28 PM on January 7 [21 favorites]




I like that new acronym, Max Power. But shall we pronounce it PEE-noh or PIE-noh?
posted by PhineasGage at 1:31 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


MeFi's own jscalzi on the descent of the GOP:

"But what if we... didn't?
posted by HillbillyInBC at 1:31 PM on January 7 [57 favorites]


Pence was joined by his wife Karen Pence and his daughter Charlotte for the ceremonial counting of the electoral votes in Congress Wednesday. Several of the violent Trump supporters who were rampaging the US Capitol were heard screaming "where's Mike Pence," the source said, frightening the vice president and his family.

Yet, the President and his top aides barely lifted a finger to check in on Pence to make sure he and his family were unharmed, the source added."
Such a weird civility framing. Look at it from Pence's POV: his freak colleague dispatched a howling visigoth mob at him and his family, clearly not giving two shits about his safety, and somehow the takeaway from the source is "wahhh, the President didn't check in on Pence in the aftermath." I would think that the message from the mob was unambiguous..that Trump doesn't care whether Pence lives or dies.

Pence deserves whatever he gets for lying down with these dogs, but I'm holding out hope that this cavalier attack on his family makes him take a bit of a Liam Neeson turn in this final act.
posted by Sauce Trough at 1:32 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


...because they were trying to secure the scene and they were overwhelmed by them and a little frightened of them.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t “frightened” the cop go-to to justify shooting people? Did this guy not get the club rulebook?
posted by Thorzdad at 1:32 PM on January 7 [36 favorites]


This tells me that we will know many of these individuals by name, their biographies in detail and that we will follow their trials and tribulations for years to come. And oh the schadenfreude we shall feel.

How could they dream that they would get away scot free with their shenanigans?
posted by y2karl at 1:34 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Yeah, they could have mowed down the protestors, but we might be talking to each other from different separate waring republics by now.
posted by sideshow at 1:34 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Is there a running tally of former Trumpists' disavowals of him/yesterday I can use for Trumpist relatives who don't realize their cult is shrinking?
posted by mahorn at 1:36 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Don't 'censor' Trump, top House Republican says after Facebook locks president's account

“Censoring the sitting President of the United States has serious free speech consequences that will extend far beyond President Trump's time in office,” Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington state, the top Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee , said in a statement to POLITICO.

"Rather," she said, "President Trump should use his platform to lower the temperature and encourage a peaceful transition of power.”


Oh, for sure. I mean, if nothing else Trump is known for his calming, cooling rhetoric, especially in times of crisis.

The unmitigated gall of these people istg
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:37 PM on January 7 [42 favorites]


The picture of him sitting down on the couch is one of the more memorable photos I've seen...

Trump Fur-Ever: Costumed Capitol Rioter Is Son Of Brooklyn Supreme Court Judge (Gothamist)

The politically-connected son of a Brooklyn Supreme Court Judge was among the band of Trump-supporting marauders who ransacked the U.S. Capitol building on Wednesday.

Dressed in fur pelts and a bullet proof vest, Aaron Mostofsky joined an early wave of rioters who swarmed the halls of Congress, forcing lawmakers to evacuate before certifying Joe Biden's election victory. He can be seen in several photos outside the Senate chambers, holding a wooden stick and a police riot shield, alongside a man carrying a Confederate flag.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 1:37 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Trump Campaign Drops All Georgia Election Challenges -- GPB

"The Trump campaign has voluntarily dismissed four lawsuits challenging November's elections in Georgia after falsely claiming it reached a settlement with the state to review election data.

"We are promptly voluntarily dismissing the following legal actions as per your request and consideration of the settlement," the letter from Roswell attorney Kurt Hilbert reads. Hilbert is the attorney for a federal court case that was denied Tuesday, a pending Superior Court of Fulton County suit, a case on appeal to the Georgia Supreme Court and a long-delayed case filed by the Trump campaign in December."
posted by valkane at 1:37 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


apparently there’s some doubt as to whether a self pardon would actually be valid

It damn sure needs to be challenged, if Trump tries it. Just declare it invalid an indie him. Make the Supreme Court rule that we have a King, not a President, if it comes to that.
posted by thelonius at 1:39 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Amy Gardner (WaPo)
@AmyEGardner
I just learned that Congress can impeach Trump after Jan. 20, so that he can never run for office again. Could be meaningful if there are not quite enough votes in the Senate currently but the two new senators-elect from Georgia could make a difference.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:39 PM on January 7 [37 favorites]


I am signer #37067 on resistbot, apparently. Resistbot is on fire, it says.

ResistBot wants my full name and address. You all felt comfortable giving that information in a text or a DM?
posted by tzikeh at 1:41 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Haven't seen this footage from the ITV here in the UK linked before. Looks like Robert Moore and his cameraman somehow ended up right in the midst of the break in.

Worth watching for this exchange:

"What's your purpose in storming Congress?"
"...how should I know?"
posted by MattWPBS at 1:44 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


What does the Capitol look like right now? Is it heavily surrounded by National Guard and Riot police? Or back to a minimal Capitol Police presence?

As of 1 pm the entire perimeter of the grounds (Constitution to Independence, 1st St NE/SE to 1st St NW/SW) was guarded by a mix of DC National Guard, Capitol Police, DC Police, and Virginia State Police, and perhaps some other agencies. They were about halfway done with putting up a 9 foot tall fence around those boundaries. On the areas not yet fenced, there were guards - mostly in military outfits that said U.S. Army, so I think National Guard - every 20 feet or so. Where the fence was up, the sidewalks were blocked. You could still walk on the sidewalk on the Capitol side of Constitution, but once the fence goes up, I think that will be blocked off too. There was low fencing - the kind that was separated and overrun yesterday - around all the office buildings (there are six main office buildings, 3 on each side, on the other side of Constitution and Independence), but the sidewalks around those buildings were open to the public. The areas around the Supreme Court and Library of Congress were open.

The mood was mellow. It was not very crowded, a mix of nondescript passersby and some lingering people in MAGA garb. Lots of reporters, many of whom seemed to be foreign, recording standups. One reporter, wearing what seemed to be a Sikh turban, was interviewing a Trump supporter who was explaining (to paraphrase) that Trump had no choice but to appoint incompetent people because he wanted to clear out the establishment. The masked reporter was holding a mic on a long pole and leaning as far away as possible from the unmasked guy he was interviewing. Three older women walked by the ornate Library of Congress Jefferson Building, carrying a LOC flier, one pointing out architectural details to the other two. Another guy walked by dressed in business casual, chattering on a cell phone: "Yes, I'm right by the Capitol. They should have shot more people." A few blocks away, by the National Gallery of Art, a giant Trump float drove by, alternating between someone saying "Unity for Trump" and blaring a recording of "God Bless America."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:46 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


MeFi's own jscalzi on the descent of the GOP

I know it's small fry, but this reminded me of the whole "Puppies" situation, and based on their reactions to yesterday, the leadership of the various SFF communities need to start issuing lifetime bans from cons and awards to creators who were part of that unpleasantness.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:47 PM on January 7 [16 favorites]


ResistBot wants my full name and address.

That's so it can correctly identify your representatives.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 1:51 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


Censoring the sitting President of the United States has serious free speech consequences

Pretty sure the Constitution works in exactly the other direction there...
posted by jason_steakums at 1:52 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


I don't want to toot Trump's horn but his sedition/insurrection was way bigger than Obama's.
posted by srboisvert at 1:54 PM on January 7 [31 favorites]


Yeah, they could have mowed down the protestors, but we might be talking to each other from different separate waring republics by now.

Capitol police beat up peaceful protesters in wheelchairs, and media coverage and the response of most Americans was largely unsympathetic. Why would this be any different? I know why, and I'm sure you do, but it would be great to hear people actually discuss that openly when we have this be part of the conversation.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:57 PM on January 7 [23 favorites]


He can be seen in several photos outside the Senate chambers, holding a wooden stick and a police riot shield, alongside a man carrying a Confederate flag.

A stolen riot shied taken from a Capital police officer I assume.
posted by srboisvert at 1:57 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Seth Abramson
@SethAbramson
Video surfaces of Trump, Ivanka, Don, Eric, Kim Guilfoyle and Chief of Staff Meadows in a celebratory mood shortly before Trump incited an insurrection against the U.S. government. Guilfoyle is heard urging Trumpists to "fight" for Trump. (h/t @edi_samira)

Traitors, all of them, all the way down.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:59 PM on January 7 [41 favorites]


> A stolen riot shied taken from a Capital police officer I assume.

That would be the first protestor/rioter I've heard of who'd been able to steal a police shield without suffering severe physical damage by the cops' hands afterwards.
posted by at by at 2:00 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]


Congresswoman Cori Bush will introduce a resolution to sanction or potentially remove from office House members who supported challenges to certified election results.

[for the Mefite upthread lucky enough to have Cori Bush as their representative, this one's for you]
posted by bluesky43 at 2:01 PM on January 7 [59 favorites]


So just checking, the rats are abandoning the sinking ship/Cabinet members are quitting so they won't get forced into 25th-ing, right?

Given the number of WH staff, cabinet members and such leaving, it may be a ship abandoning a sinking rat.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:02 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


I think Republicans are trying to have it both ways and invoke the 25th Amendment without invoking the 25th Amendment. Basically they are saying the Chief of Staff and the White House Council are reviewing everything Trump is doing and tasked with keeping him on a tight leash for the rest of the transition.
posted by interogative mood at 2:02 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


I'd hazard a guess he's going to Camp David because it's private. He doesn't want to deal with other people (even his own sycophantic club members) now that he's an official loser.

I'd imagine the White House is full of people actively preparing for Biden's arrival so he definitely won't hang around for that. And I wouldn't be surprised if Mar-A-Lago is undergoing some security renovations in preparation for his post-presidency level of security.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:03 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


"What's your purpose in storming Congress?"
"...how should I know?"


That's the thing about mobs. They are mindless which is why they are so dangerous. The leader just whips them up into an emotional frenzy, points the direction and lets mob nature take its course.
posted by JackFlash at 2:03 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


I think Republicans are trying to have it both ways and invoke the 25th Amendment without invoking the 25th Amendment. Basically they are saying the Chief of Staff and the White House Council are reviewing everything Trump is doing and tasked with keeping him on a tight leash for the rest of the transition.

Link for this info?
posted by bluesky43 at 2:03 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


how anyone could get those two groups confused

Because they're antifer plants! It's a false flag op! Why do you think the Soros-funded Capitol police let them in so easily? Wake up sheeple!

/s (but also the sort of thing being posted on Parler and fringe subreddits)
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:05 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Lindsey Graham said as much in his press conference in justifying why he doesn’t support invoking the 25th amendment at this time.

However Brynn Tannehill is claiming that Trump is going to resign from Camp David after pardoning himself and and his family.
posted by interogative mood at 2:09 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I'm a big fan of the idea that a presidential self-pardon requires testing for the good of the Republic and the only way to test it is for the DOJ to indict.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:12 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Trump is not yet at camp david according to CNN. They are reporting he is still at the white house and apparently handing out Medals of Freedom to some golfers. White House officials are saying he leave for camp david tomorrow. Given this is Trump I trust these unnamed officials not at all.
posted by muddgirl at 2:13 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


That would be the first protestor/rioter I've heard of who'd been able to steal a police shield without suffering severe physical damage by the cops' hands afterwards.

The A War Photographer Embeds With the Capitol Hill Mob article explains a bit in the caption for that photo:

A Trump supporter stopped for a rest during the melee, next to a bust of Richard Nixon. Earlier, Haviv saw the man snatch the police flak jacket he’s wearing, along with the shield, gear left by the police outside.
posted by cape at 2:13 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


That is the other reason to demanding he be 25th / impeached that I hadn't thought of. I didn't think anything could ever cause him to resign, but knowing that there's no scenario where he'll still be President after January 21st AND knowing that he genuinely might now go down in history as the first loser to be impeached twice / removed from office by impeachment / removed from office by reason of incompetence... maybe that would do it. Especially if any of his enablers can convince him that resigning is just like declaring bankruptcy - it's just a consequence-free speed bump for important people.
posted by Mchelly at 2:16 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Some delicious shade from the gothamist article linked to above about a son of a Brooklyn judge (I think), the son is the guy in the fur and who took the shield. Mostofsky can be seen in photographs standing next to a different man wearing furs and a horned hat, who has been identified as Jake Angeli, an Arizona QAnon supporter. It's unclear if the outfits are related.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:16 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


White House Briefing about to start. Watch to get some non answers Via YouTube
posted by interogative mood at 2:17 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Big "Lucy and the football" energy around claims Trump is going to resign, or even that the 25th Amendment will be invoked.
posted by SansPoint at 2:17 PM on January 7 [41 favorites]


The A War Photographer Embeds With the Capitol Hill Mob article explains a bit in the caption for that photo:

The dude in that picture is apparently the son of NY Supreme Court Judge, and uh, he is quite the character.
posted by sideshow at 2:18 PM on January 7


Haviv saw the man snatch the police flak jacket he’s wearing, along with the shield, gear left by the police outside.

Is this from the scene in the movie where the cops take off their uniforms and join the other side?
posted by JackFlash at 2:18 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


White House Briefing about to start. Watch to get some non answers yt Via YouTube

"violent rioters". I've heard enough.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:19 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


NY Supreme Court Judge

For context for non-New Yorkers and non-law nerds: in New York the trial courts are called Supreme Courts. The equivalent of the "Supreme Court" in other states and countries is the New York Court of Appeals. So still very weird that this guy is the son of a judge, but maybe not as weird as it might sound at first.
posted by jedicus at 2:21 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Such a weird civility framing. Look at it from Pence's POV: his freak colleague dispatched a howling visigoth mob at him and his family, clearly not giving two shits about his safety, and somehow the takeaway from the source is "wahhh, the President didn't check in on Pence in the aftermath." I would think that the message from the mob was unambiguous..that Trump doesn't care whether Pence lives or dies.

Lin Wood is, of course, the batshit "lawyer" that filed some of the Kraken lawsuits, accused Kemp and Raffensperger of being Communist saboteurs, and other offenses against decency and logic. He has been retweeted by Trump, IIRC. He is more of an unofficial advisor than anything else, but he has Trump's ear to some degree.

And yesterday, during the insurrection, he publically called for Pence's immediate execution on Parler, a short time after Trump had blasted Pence on Twitter for being insufficiently obedient to him.

It may be short-lived, but if I was Mike Pence, I'd be quietly asking where I could get one of those Antifa membership badges for the duration.
posted by delfin at 2:21 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Re: the White House statement-- welp, that was quick.
posted by rp at 2:21 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


> The dude in that picture is apparently the son of NY Supreme Court Judge, and uh, he is quite the character.

Looks like the tweet got deleted.
posted by at by at 2:22 PM on January 7


"Why I Am Resigning After Stabbing 97 People For Donald Trump"

Today I stand up and say: No more. I hereby resign my position as deputy assistant undersecretary for stabbing.
posted by mightygodking at 2:24 PM on January 7 [37 favorites]


Has anyone seen anything official about the other three fatalities yesterday? Twitter posts suggested one involved a fall from scaling the wall, and one other was a heart attack induced by an accidental self-tasing, with possible embellishment in one report.
@ggooooddddoogg
i don’t think it’s funny at all that a maga guy accidentally tased himself in his own balls until he died while trying to steal a painting of thomas p. “tip” o neill from a hallway

There's more sober "somebody tased themselves" reports from independent journalists out there, but that mental image will stick with me.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:25 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


So far right white supremacist chucklefucks organized and bombed the Alfred P Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City back in 1995. I was 13. I am now 39. At what point do we take right wing white supremacists seriously?

Can we just remember that, like with “how to prevent a pandemic” and “how to stop Nazis from taking over your government”, 21st-century America is not some special exception to all the rules that needs a bespoke approach re-inventing the wheel, but instead we have a basically century-old step-by-step manual for what happens in these situations, because they happen again and again all over the world, frequently at our instigation?

The wealthy and corporate and political elites know that not only are they not guaranteed to maintain status in the outcome of a successful fascist revolution, but if a failed fascist revolution serves as a precedent for a real populist egalitarian revolution of any stripe they are definitely, totally screwed.

So what always happens is that the right-wing wackos faceplant with some failed uprisings, there's a backlash overreaction putting in place draconian undemocratic measures to ostensibly prevent further fascist uprisings, cheerfully encouraged by those wealthy and corporate and political elites, and then when the Nazis come to power through more conventional or hybrid means they have all of the draconian undemocratic measures they themselves provoked at their disposal for doing evil. But the elites who were smart carved out little safeguards and installed heartplugs in the servants for themselves.

Predictably, pundits on MSNBC last night were already shouting “We need a domestic terrorism law, stat!” before the day was even done.

So yes, let's take white supremacists seriously, but let's be fucking humble for once and learn from history and other countries and not stupidly try to reinvent the wheel and thereby give the authoritarians exactly what they want like every other goddamn time this has happened.
posted by XMLicious at 2:26 PM on January 7 [40 favorites]


> Is a COVID outbreak coming? More than 50 GOP members refused to where masks...

Yesterday during the insurrection Members of the House & Senate were evacuated into a shared space, where many #Republicans refused to wear #COVID19 masks. - Laurie Garrett (Twitter)


One of the comments links to this: Kansas congressman tests positive for COVID-19 after House vote on Biden’s electors

And also in today's news: Congresswoman describes holding location as "super-spreader event"

Was the Capitol siege a COVID super-spreader event? Here’s what experts say
A horde of rioters incited by President Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, breaching security perimeters, marching inside and ransacking property in a siege that left four people dead.

Infectious disease experts on Thursday identified more potential fallout: That the Capitol invasion may have been a COVID-19 super-spreader event that could result in thousands of new cases and deaths.
While All Eyes Were On Washington, Daily Coronavirus Deaths Set Another Record: The death toll is poised to grow to over 430,000 before the end of January, according to the CDC’s forecast.

If legislators did get infected by the insurrectionists, would that count as bioterrorism?
posted by homunculus at 2:26 PM on January 7 [18 favorites]


I note that she spoke as “the White House” and on “behalf of the Administration” using collective nouns about what “we have stood for” and not President Trump. In fact she barely mentioned him.
posted by interogative mood at 2:27 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Looks like the tweet got deleted.

Hmm, perhaps Jeet turned up something in his due diligence.

Anyway, here is the Gothamist article about the dude that includes the video I originally linked. But, be forewarned that a real journalist deleted their tweet about it, so maybe it's horseshit. The video of the dude is just wild on his own, and the "son of a judge" part isn't the main draw IMO.
posted by sideshow at 2:28 PM on January 7



Amy Gardner (WaPo)
@AmyEGardner
I just learned that Congress can impeach Trump after Jan. 20, so that he can never run for office again. Could be meaningful if there are not quite enough votes in the Senate currently but the two new senators-elect from Georgia could make a difference.


I wish she gave her source for this announcement.

This WaPo piece says there's no consensus on the matter.
posted by mark k at 2:28 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I note that she spoke as “the White House” and on “behalf of the Administration” using collective nouns about what “we have stood for” and not President Trump. In fact she barely mentioned him.

Ok, now I hear the "has anybody actually seen him since yesterday?" train a-callin' too.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:33 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


There are any number of insane things about the "It was all Antifa!" conspiracy theory but the one I am stuck on right this second is how anyone could see those two groups as potentially hard to differentiate visually.

I can understand why somebody embedded in the right-wing media ecosystem would look at Jake Angeli and think he looks like somebody cosplaying a magahead rather than the real thing. Most of the crowd, though, looks like exactly what they are.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:34 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


I wish she gave her source for this announcement.

It's the US Constitution. Impeaching someone not currently in office has never really been questioned, at least by all the lawyers I follow on the internets, it's just the ultimate form of not "looking forward, rather than backward".

Edit: looks like the WaPo found some lawyers that don't agree with my lawyers, so perhaps its not as straight forward.
posted by sideshow at 2:34 PM on January 7


According to Twitter, he's not going to Camp David after all. Not surprising; he's pretty volatile about these things. I don't know if that means he's changed his mind about resigning since that rumor came along, or if that was ever true. My heart leapt a little at the thought.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:34 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]




I can understand why somebody embedded in the right-wing media ecosystem would look at Jake Angeli and think he looks like somebody cosplaying a magahead rather than the real thing
He's a third rate Jamiroquai impersonator at best.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:36 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


As the old saying goes, if you fuck a pig, you're a pigfucker, and nobody cares if you were doing it ironically.
posted by acb at 2:38 PM on January 7 [34 favorites]


I hate this impeachment fanfic. The Constitution requires a two-thirds supermajority to convict. Even after the election of the two Georgia Dems and the events of yesterday, there aren't enough Republican Senators who would vote to do that.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:38 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Two weeks of Trump holed up and being "handled", combined with the remaining Executive disarray and seeming total breakdown in "who's in charge and should do anything" sure seems like a great time for a global adversary to stage an attack or just start pulling shit that normally gets push-back.
posted by achrise at 2:39 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


He's a third rate Jamiroquai impersonator at best.

And Jay Kay is not happy about it.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:40 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Listening to McEnany's presser again, she does not once use the word 'Trump,' and she says 'president' exactly once.

Also, she went with 'many thousands' for the crowd estimate, which judge for yourself but here are some photos of the election protests (UPI), here's a guide to visualizing crowd sizes, and here's a crowd estimated at 5,000 people.
posted by box at 2:40 PM on January 7


I don't know if it's possible, but the rioters should be charged with murder in the death of their co-conspirator. In addition to their other crimes.
posted by JenMarie at 2:40 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Two weeks of Trump holed up and being "handled", combined with the remaining Executive disarray and seeming total breakdown in "who's in charge and should do anything" sure seems like a great time for a global adversary to stage an attack or just start pulling shit that normally gets push-back.

Yeah, people in yesterday's thread were concerned Trump might nuke California, I'd be more worried of Taiwan getting invaded or something.
posted by sideshow at 2:41 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


I don't think this has been posted yet, "Capitol Police Rejected Offers of Federal Help to Quell Mob":
Three days before the pro-President Donald Trump riot at the Capitol, the Pentagon asked the U.S Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. And as the mob descended on the building Wednesday, Justice Department leaders reached out to offer up FBI agents. The police turned them down both times, according to a defense official and two people familiar with the matter.

Capitol Police had planned for a free speech demonstration and didn't need more help, those three told The Associated Press. The police weren’t expecting what actually happened — an insurrection.

[...]

There had been plenty of warnings. Plenty of time to prepare. Plenty of money to do it.
posted by mhum at 2:41 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


fedward: (I'm leaving aside other agencies with enforcement jurisdiction in some or all of DC like the Secret Service and postal inspectors and who knows what all … IIRC the total number of police agencies that can arrest you for something in DC is nine, but I can't keep track and usually don't need to know)

Thanks, fedward. The various layers of law enforcement, particularly in DC and the Capitol proper is a bit hard for us international observers to keep straight at times. It's a bit Byzantine.

I was kind of wondering if Trump's visited Camp David, like, ever (preferrring Mar-a-Lago, obviously), and it turns out it's only been twice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:41 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Trump is going to Camp David this weekend

Trump to flee DC for Camp David this weekend after his supporters trashed the US Capitol in a riot, Business Insider, Thomas Pallini, 1/7/2021:
  • President Donald Trump is heading to Camp David in Maryland this weekend while Washington, DC, cleans up after the riot at the US Capitol.
  • A White House official on Thursday confirmed the weekend getaway to Insider.
  • The Federal Aviation Administration said it would implement temporary flight restrictions over the Maryland retreat, a standard safety precaution.
(It’s getting hard enough just skimming these fast-moving threads — please give source links if available, thx.)
posted by cenoxo at 2:41 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


While a lot of attention is understandably on the Congresspeople who were under siege, congressional aides were subjected to direct physical assault, as attested by this aide and trans woman who was called slurs while being punched by rioters, as police stood by. (cw, the details are pretty disturbing)

When people focus entirely on “no Congress members were injured” it’s a slap in the face. Staff were also present; if you looked queer - as I do - it wasn’t a peaceful protest. This country has a murderous hatred of trans women - I felt it today yet again.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 2:44 PM on January 7 [71 favorites]


According to Twitter, he's not going to Camp David after all. Not surprising; he's pretty volatile about these things.

Can't shake the gut feeling that if Trump is going to retreat into seclusion, it's going to be somewhere he's comfortable and can be surrounded by people who will still fawn over him, and that Camp David (or any other government facility) isn't going to qualify. Not for long, anyway.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:44 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Pence is not going to return your calls, ffs. It's been go time on impeachment since noon
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:44 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


The police weren’t expecting what actually happened — an insurrection.

Nobody expects the Trumpish Insurrection.
posted by phunniemee at 2:45 PM on January 7 [29 favorites]


The [Capitol Police] weren’t expecting what actually happened

This is literally unbelievable, especially in the context of the goddamn Pentagon giving them a heads-up. Something has stunk about this from the beginning and it's starting to smell a lot worse.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:45 PM on January 7 [54 favorites]


can someone sedate trump for 14 days? extra milk of the poppy in his diet coke?

see: "the king is tired"
posted by lalochezia at 2:46 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


"We condemn it, the president and this administration..."

first of all, team no Oxford comma.

I'm trying to parse this sentence. Assuming "it" is the violence previously mentioned, do we (the White House staff) condemn three things, or do we (the White House staff, the president and this administration) condemn one thing?
posted by emelenjr at 2:47 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Nobody expects the Trumpish Insurrection.

Their chief weapon is fear, fear of non-white people and surprise that they aren't the absolute hegemons of society anymore.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:47 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Rewinding the clock, I'm not sure turning down Pentagon help was the wrong move. Here on the blue we've been worrying for a while about the change in DoD leadership and other scary actions by federal militias. Not sure we would have reacted well if we had heard "Capitol Hill police are being reinforced by Pentagon troops" right before the electoral college votes were going to be certified.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:48 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Nobody expects the Trumpish Insurrection.

Our chief weapons are Fear! Surmise! Exigency! And a fanatical devotion to the Dope!
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:48 PM on January 7 [38 favorites]


EVERYONE was expecting the Trumpish Insurrection.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:49 PM on January 7 [52 favorites]


There's now video of what appears to be at least one member of the Capitol Police actually waving the insurrectionists in.

I believe the police just let it happen, but this doesn't seem to be video of it. This seems to be an officer trying to get the attention of another officer or officers off camera, and telling them to fall back & get out of the crowd.
posted by cashman at 2:49 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


On a re-read, let me change that to "the goddamn Pentagon and the fucking Trump DOJ giving them a heads-up." Investigators should start looking to anyone booking tickets with a final destination that has no extradition treaty.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:49 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


The video purporting to show police gesturing the mob in does not show who they are gesturing to. It cuts off before it pans far enough to tell. Applying occam's razor, it's another police officer.
posted by joeyh at 2:50 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


@BeschlossDC
Simon & Schuster has just cancelled publication of Josh Hawley’s forthcoming book, reports
@NYTimes

Not generally a fan of schadenfreude but this is some delicious schadenfreude
posted by bluesky43 at 2:51 PM on January 7 [98 favorites]


Rewinding the clock, I'm not sure turning down Pentagon help was the wrong move. Here on the blue we've been worrying for a while about the change in DoD leadership and other scary actions by federal militias. Not sure we would have reacted well if we had heard "Capitol Hill police are being reinforced by Pentagon troops" right before the electoral college votes were going to be certified.

It's not the turning down of troops (although in this case, it may have also enabled the non-Trump controlled VA and MD National Guard to be ready) that I object to, it's the fact that they were told what was coming by two of the three groups whose job it is to prepare local officials for acts of terrorism, and yet they somehow still didn't believe it .
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:53 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


"He's a very, very flawed man. I'm not a psychiatrist. I could never address anything that has to do with mental health. I would just say very flawed man who has got some serious character issues." -- John Kelly on Trump

Jesus. no shit sherlock.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:56 PM on January 7 [17 favorites]


Illhan Omar is encouraging folks to call their Representatives to co-sign onto her Articles of Impeachment. "We're up to nearly 60" she tweeted about an hour ago.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:57 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


(I don't have to call my Representative because Barbara Lee is already a co-sponsor. She kicks ass.)
posted by Bella Donna at 2:58 PM on January 7 [18 favorites]


> The [Capitol Police] weren’t expecting what actually happened

This is literally unbelievable, especially in the context of the goddamn Pentagon giving them a heads-up.

Yeah, just to be clear, Washington, D.C. police executives are extremely tight with both domestic and overseas federal intelligence communities and the military who all share backrubs, being in the same personal space. Google some FOIA documents and you'll find all kinds of evidence of constant mid-twentieth-century meetings between these principals, the most recent era copious records are freely available for.

Sigh, FOIA requests. That's probably another thing that's effectively gone, along with any hope of dealing with over-classification of government records, not that we were really trying.
posted by XMLicious at 3:00 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


(Same. I wouldn't expect else of Pramila Jayapal, but I'm so proud she's my representative!)
posted by kalimac at 3:00 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Do you know what we do not do, once the smoke has cleared and the orange turd has been flushed back to Mar-a-Lago and the immediate threat has passed?

We do not allow Trump's legacy to be whitewashed by _anyone_, mainstream or not.

We do not allow a Lost Cause mentality (Trump tried so hard to restore America, but there were too many liberals and evil prevailed) to spread.

We do not allow a single co-conspirator to pretend that they have not been enabling and supporting the Trump movement until it reached this very moment. (I am staring right at you with lasers coming out of my eye sockets, Lindsey Graham. Far, far, far too little, too late, Mitch McConnell.)

We do not allow Trump to find a moment's peace or forgiveness for the rest of his life.

If we see a news network or a pundit softening their stance, calling for bygones to be bygones, their inbox should be full twenty seconds later. If we hear someone talking about how it's time for us all to come together and start fresh in a new spirit of cooperation, they hear within minutes why that is not possible, loudly and from many directions.

Trumpism must be to America as Naziism was to Germany. Not just an error, not just an atrocity, but something to be actively suppressed and not allowed to resurface.

Nothing else would suffice.
posted by delfin at 3:00 PM on January 7 [118 favorites]


I have this little dream running in my head that, as more and more video of the rioters makes it out to the public, a shit-ton of the fools suddenly find themselves jobless thanks to employers not wanting that shit associated with them.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:01 PM on January 7 [23 favorites]


"This is literally unbelievable, especially in the context of the goddamn Pentagon giving them a heads-up."

It's literally unbelievable in that you can't convince me that there's a single US police department for that isn't at least 1/3 chud, with social media feeds that let them know exactly what to expect.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:01 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Trumpism must be to America as Naziism was to Germany. Not just an error, not just an atrocity, but something to be actively suppressed and not allowed to resurface.

Nothing else would suffice.


AMEN. The media has to villainize the Republican Party for the damage they inflicted.

"Objectivity" and giving Nazis a platform out of "fairness" became our downfall.
posted by ichomp at 3:03 PM on January 7 [18 favorites]


a shit-ton of the fools suddenly find themselves jobless thanks to employers not wanting that shit associated with them.

As crass and awful as this is to say, but with how many of these people actively hate on the homeless...

I kinda hope a decent chunk of them ends up in prison to be kicked out broke and homeless ten years later.

The others I hope end up broke and homeless from losing their jobs.

And I hope every indignity they suffer burns them to their stupid loser fucking core as they slowly find out how hard life is for those in poverty in America.

Not that it will change them.
posted by deadaluspark at 3:03 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


The guy who walked off with Pelosi's podium has been identified and shockingly his name is not Via Getty.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:05 PM on January 7 [35 favorites]


DirtyOldTown, I'd call that a lectern, but I guess that semantic ship has sailed.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:09 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


Representative Nadler via Twitter: I am once again urging that President Trump be impeached and removed from office. We have a limited period of time in which to act. The nation cannot afford a drawn out process and I support bringing articles of impeachment directly to the House floor.

Someone else on Twitter pointed out that the Republicans were working to replace RBG on the Supreme Court before her body was in the ground; of course Congress can hustle on impeachment if we lean on our Reps hard enough.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:11 PM on January 7 [29 favorites]


Re: deaths. This small article from my hometown newspaper has an eyewitness account of one of the deaths buried at the end.
posted by double bubble at 3:13 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


There’s an old boardgame called JUNTA. It’s set in a corrupt late 20th C. Central American dictatorship. It’s all about “El Presidente For Life” assigning offices to cronies and family members, stealing foreign investments, and players trying not to get assassinated.

Whenever there is a “coup” in the game, the issue becomes Will the various branches of the military stay in their barracks, or will they come out onto the streets to suppress the rioters?

I think it’s obvious that our European allies are right; those charged with defending the U.S. Congress essentially stayed in their barracks.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 3:16 PM on January 7 [29 favorites]


a shit-ton of the fools suddenly find themselves jobless
If you’re a Nazi and you’re fired it’s your fault!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 3:16 PM on January 7 [21 favorites]


Is there a way we can address the very real dangerous stupidity of Trump and not turn him into an adrenaline rush, a fixation, and a badass giant demon or something? It would be worlds better if the world saw him as a sad old boob and his followers as pathetic. Making him a giant glowering villain just risks pouring motor oil on his fire, as I see it.
posted by argybarg at 3:16 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Let's not forget that a few days ago Proud Boys asked all their members to remove their normal yellow/black and come dressed ion black as Antifa .....
posted by mbo at 3:17 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Metafilter: that semantic ship has sailed

(did I do this right)
posted by missmobtown at 3:17 PM on January 7 [33 favorites]


I keep thinking about how we all got to be happy for like...12 hours. We had 12 hours of genuine hope and gratitude, and 12 hours of the whole world seeing Stacey Abrams and other organizers for the goddamn heroes they are, and then this motherfucker stole it all away.

I know this isn't particularly high on the list of things to be mad about, but fuck it, my anger cupboard is basically one of those mythical cornucopias at this point, so.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:17 PM on January 7 [80 favorites]


They've found the identity of the "fucking crackers" guy.

Turns out he's a biglaw lawyer, Peter Tracey, Senior Counsel at Perkins Coie.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:18 PM on January 7 [95 favorites]


The guy who put his feet on Pelosi's desk (clarification: her daughter says it's not her desk, which probably means that it's not her, like, main desk) and took a letter from her office has also been identified, and he's active in county Republican politics.
posted by box at 3:18 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


Schadenfrau, I was saying the exact same thing to friends.
posted by PhineasGage at 3:19 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


to be fair I had a moment of glee watching Lindsey Graham eat shit while obviously hammered.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:20 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Dear schadenfrau: You of all people will know how to find happiness in these times.
posted by argybarg at 3:21 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]




12 hours of genuine hope and gratitude, and my neck muscles went and relaxed enough that I slept through five of those hours like a fuckin' mug.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:23 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Hey there, greetings from the other side of the Atlantic pond :-) haven't posted in the last ... 5 years I guess, but I felt compelled to come visit you USA guys to extend my sympathy after yesterday events.

I truly am shocked ( and consider I went through Berlusconi, so I have very low expectations to begin with)

To be brutally honest, the worst I could have expected from an American President these days was bombing the shit out of some country to gain access or control some strategic resources ... and that is not to downplay such an action.

But an American President turning against his own country so openly ... and for the whole apparatus that kept him afloat to let him do that without immediately kicking the living shit out of him ... that is extremly worrying, completely unexpected.

I mean, it was abundantly clear the GOP over the years have become Trump's favourite bitch, doesn't take a genious to see that. But then again, exactly because the GOP would apparently do any Faustian deal to stay in power, I would have expected GOP reps to dump him in a fraction of the second. But no. Only a few here and there denounced him within hours.

What's next? IMHO, the GOP is gone, busted, consumed, extinct. They cannot pretend they didn't see that coming, the was ample evidence, way too many examples and the cherry-on-top was yesterday. So, where will the right and far right go next? Trump AGAIN? Worse than Trump? That seems entirely possible.

That is quite concerning because basically anything big happening to you guys eventually will reflect on the rest of the western world and we already have our large share of right wing extremist in Europe.

We so desperately need you to come up with a reasonable GOP alternative or a much, much stronger Dem party.

Wish you the best. Actually, wish us the best!
posted by elpapacito at 3:27 PM on January 7 [91 favorites]


argybarg: The problem is that Trump's both of those things and always has been.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:27 PM on January 7


Yeah, I totally understand that feeling, schadenfrau... When Biden's victory was announced in November, we were walking near Union Square in Manhattan and it was so glorious and awesome. It was so fun being swept up in that moment; everyone hooting, hollering, dancing in the streets all day and night.

Yet at the same time, we were thinking about 'Is it okay to enjoy this moment?' - knowing that the darkness was coming and that Trump wasn't going to back down and feeling guilty at the same time. Like we would pay double for that moment of sunshine.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 3:27 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


MSNBC is reporting Pelosi is having a Democratic Caucus meeting at noon tomorrow. I have no idea why they're not there now, given that Pence is apparently leaking that he refuses to use the 25A, and that Pelosi herself said just a few hours ago that "while it's only 13 days left, any day can be a horror show for America."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:28 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


A. Ham: Hang on, how many men died because Trump was inexperienced and ruinous?
A. Burr: OK so we're doing this.


dammit I just made the exact same joke on Twitter stop jinxing me
posted by mightygodking at 3:29 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Silver lining here. We still won, and won big. And now, no one in secret service or any other department can say they didn’t have advanced warning of the almost certain attempts on Biden and Harris lives on the 20th.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:30 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


You take that back. They absolutely could (and would) claim that.
also don't say that when the universe can hear you holy shit
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 3:33 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]


The various layers of law enforcement, particularly in DC and the Capitol proper is a bit hard for us international observers to keep straight at times.

DC has about 700,000 residents and it is no end of frustration for many of us that we are only allowed as much self-government as Republican assholes in Congress find politically expedient at any given time. DC's budget is subject to congressional approval. DC's laws are subject to oversight and interference. In one notorious example DC's legalization of marijuana has been subject to years of meddling from Maryland rep Andy Harris, and Utah representative Jason Chaffetz had to change his phone system after his own meddling in DC affairs went too far.

Statehood for DC would mean that 700,000 people would actually be able to determine their own laws without people from other parts of the country thinking they know better than we do how to run our city.

Also periodically I amuse myself by trying to remember all the parts of the Netherlands that aren't Holland and how, exactly, the British Isles and the UK do and don't overlap. And while the state of Arizona does not follow Daylight Saving Time, the Navajo Nation, entirely within Arizona's borders, does follow DST, and the Hopi Nation, entirely within the borders of the Navajo Nation, does not.
posted by fedward at 3:34 PM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Sorry. But yes, this allows the dems to ask for a full fucking lockdown for the inauguration and preemptive arrests of “lulz” threat posters.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:34 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


In the "I can't believe the police are so competent files..."

Police Need Help Identifying Famous QAnon Guy Named Jake Angeli From Arizona (Vice)

Police are desperately seeking the name of Jake Angeli, a Qanon celebrity who has a Wikipedia page and has been the subject of dozens of local, national, and international news articles in the last 24 hours and over the last several months that have named him and given numerous biographical details about him.
...
Google News shows 147,000 results for “Jake Angeli,” the vast majority of which do seem to name Angeli, the person that D.C. police cannot identify. Nonetheless, Washington, D.C.’s Metropolitan Police are offering up to $1,000 to anyone enterprising enough to identify this mysterious person, according to Wanted posters they put out Thursday.
posted by rambling wanderlust at 3:35 PM on January 7 [56 favorites]


Nadler's my Congressman - when I called his office this morning, his staffer said that they were getting a lot of calls but he hadn't made a statement yet.

Having read his statement, I am okay with the wait.
posted by Mchelly at 3:36 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Maybe if we had strongly stood up to other shitty white people and put the fucking hammer down on them when they started in with their “I’m not racist buuuuut...” bullshit

You are not going to fix this by yelling at your uncle more (or less) at Thanksgiving. Seriously. That’s just finding a way to feel personally responsible for a massive structural issue decades in the making.
posted by atoxyl at 3:40 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]


I feel like this will be the setup to one of those Arrested Development NARRATOR jokes in two weeks.
I mean, much like January 6th, they've been talking up plans for January 19th for a while now. Complete with "First time was a trial run, this time we're bringing 2A solutions" comments. So it should be taken as given that this will be attempted, question will be "how far will they be allowed to go carrying this out?"

Then again, they're claiming they had no advance notice when there's been about a month of hashtags & branded+timestamped merchandise printed out, and an entire Discourse cycle of "Should the community gather up to push them back? Should 'we' avoid giving them the fight they crave and let them fight the police? Would doing that lead to them focusing their ire on specific people for worse treatment, much like Charlottesville?". So maybe they *don't* know that there's been open planning for a redux for the Inauguration.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:42 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


And now, no one in secret service or any other department can say they didn’t have advanced warning of the almost certain attempts on Biden and Harris lives on the 20th.

Harris was at the Capitol yesterday.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:43 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t “frightened” the cop go-to to justify shooting people? Did this guy not get the club rulebook?

Didn’t a “frightened cop” kill a random QAnoner who turned out to be unarmed yesterday? And then a bunch of other cops ran away because they didn’t want to deal with a crowd that was armed. Obviously the scarier thing here is the cops who were openly sympathetic, but there’s also a lot that’s consistent with what we already know about dysfunction and lack of professionalism in law enforcement.
posted by atoxyl at 3:46 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I've been trying to harp on the message with Trump supporters that zero GOP senators were willing to sign an objection to enough electoral votes to change the outcome. Including the original instigators. A mark of insincerity for sure.

Derrick Evans [...] Now claims he was there as "an independent member of the media".

The cynical part of me wants to ask him to show us which eye got shot out if that's the case.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:48 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]




from North of the border, the CBC interviewed former ambassador to Canada, Gordon Giffin. Asked how this might play out, he answered (my transcription)...
Well, uh... I am not a criminal lawyer, and I am certainly not a sedition or treason lawyer. But if you incite sedition, uh... I believe it's a crime. Uh, now, whether the president can be prosecuted for that? I don't know. Whether he should be? I'm not sure. I'd just like for him to go. Fade away. He is not stable. And he has been an unfortunate accident in our history.
posted by shoesfullofdust at 3:51 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I'm guessing from the wording that probably it was a heart attack or accident rather than someone directly assaulting them, but it's still in that fucker Trump's account book.
posted by tavella at 3:51 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


I emailed my Senators today, not to support impeachment (I had one line about "removing Trump's power to cause harm") but to emphasize the danger to democracy and their own safety, and how much worse it could have gone, and the clear complicity somewhere in the law enforcement, and the pipe bombs and the simultaneous similar events at 5-10 statehouses, and beg them to take this seriously.

Knock on wood, most likely Trump will be out of play within two weeks, however it happens. Right wing extremism is here to stay. There's a real danger that the foolish elements of yesterday's events will mask the deadly serious ones, because that's usually how it goes with right-wing stuff.

And maybe as important, one unambiguous thing that happened yesterday was that congresspeople felt fear. I have no idea how that experience will shape their actions.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 3:52 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]




Husband has been trying to call our House rep all day — he’s just been getting a busy signal every time. Hoping this means everyone is calling to demand impeachment.
posted by snowmentality at 3:54 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


The WaPo has an insightful bit here, where they describe yesterday's events as if it were US media reporting on another country.

... political and racial violence have played a part in the history of the former British colony for centuries and have particularly been inflamed in the past four years.
posted by suelac at 3:56 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


From John MCormack @ The National Review (yes, I know I know), who was apparently barricaded inside the Senate press room yesterday: Gov. Larry Hogan says requests to send in the Maryland National Guard were rejected for 90 minutes on Wednesday.

Contains a screencap of a bit of reporting from the WaPo where Steny Hoyer & Chuck Schumer were in contact with Hogan. "Hogan said Maj. Gen. Timothy Gowan, the adjutant general of the Maryland National Gurad, was repeatedly rebuffed by the head of the National Goard at the federal level."
posted by soundguy99 at 3:57 PM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Biden has no interest in opening impeachment proceedings
President-elect Joe Biden has no appetite for opening an impeachment proceeding against President Trump, people familiar with the matter say Thursday, as he prefers to keep his focus on taking office in 13 days.

Sources who told CNN earlier Thursday he had no intention of weighing in on the 25th Amendment talks, they said he feels the same about impeachment.

It’s unclear whether Biden will weigh in himself – he declined to answer questions today, but might Friday – but he has made his views known that he doesn’t favor impeachment.

“Impeachment would not help unify this country,” a person close to Biden said, who added that “this is a matter to be decided by the Congress.”
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:59 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


National treasure Alexandra Petri is all out of funnies
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 4:00 PM on January 7 [18 favorites]


I'm guessing from the wording that probably it was a heart attack or accident rather than someone directly assaulting them, but it's still in that fucker Trump's account book.

I doubt we'd ever be able to deduce how many deaths should be attributed to Trump. Too many are dead because this asshole wanted power.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:04 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


From John MCormack @ The National Review (yes, I know I know), who was apparently barricaded inside the Senate press room yesterday: Gov. Larry Hogan says requests to send in the Maryland National Guard were rejected for 90 minutes on Wednesday.

Smells like conspiracy. I hope Biden takes this seriously.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:06 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Mostofsky can be seen in photographs standing next to a different man wearing furs and a horned hat, who has been identified as Jake Angeli, an Arizona QAnon supporter. It's unclear if the outfits are related.

It's funny snark, but actually I think reporters are required to go further: it /is/ clear that the outfits are related, because they are specifically both attempts to mimic the culture of a time that they think of as being white-male-dominated. The one is mimicking his twisted beliefs about the Viking age, and the other is attempting to poorly mimic a Roman standard-bearer. Both are cultures that have been seized upon by the alt-right because of these false beliefs.

And when you are reporting about this attempted coup, you absolutely need to include that some of its most prominent members were white supremacists. To do otherwise is absolutely an abrogation of your duty.
posted by corb at 4:07 PM on January 7 [51 favorites]


4 deaths, per WaPo (these three in addition to the already identified woman who was shot)

D.C. police on Thursday identified three individuals who died during violent rioting that led to an hours-long lockdown of the U.S. Capitol. Police said Rosanne Boyland, 34, of Kennesaw, Ga.; Kevin Greeson, 55, of Athens, Ala.; and Benjamin Phillips, 50, of Ringtown, Pa., suffered medical emergencies.
posted by emjaybee at 4:08 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Anyone keeping a tally of how many times someone on CNN describes the president as "isolated"?
posted by wordless reply at 4:09 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


The Washington post has an account of the (lack of) National Guard response to the riot.

First from Virginia. The Virginia governor received a call from D.C. Mayor Muriel E. Bowser, saying the Defense Department was refusing to activate the District’s National Guard. The mayor wanted Northam to send in Virginia’s, as well as state police.

And then in Maryland:
Governor Hogan received a panicked call from House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md)., who pleaded with him to send in troops from Maryland, the governor said. Hoyer told him that he was calling from a secure location with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.).

“I was actually on the phone with Leader Hoyer who was pleading with us to send the guard,” Hogan said. “He was yelling across the room to Schumer and they were back and forth saying we do have the authorization and I’m saying, ‘I’m telling you we do not have the authorization.' ”

Hogan said Maj. Gen. Timothy Gowen, the adjutant general of the Maryland National Guard, was repeatedly rebuffed by the head of the National Guard at the federal level.


The DoD was refusing to send in the DC National Guard and also refusing authorization to allow any other state's national guard to respond. This was planned from the top.

I think the most damning smoking gun is this video of the entire Trump family in their battlefield tent in front of the White House orchestrating the attack in real time on their big screen TVs.

Democrats have to impeach.
posted by JackFlash at 4:11 PM on January 7 [84 favorites]


The chuds have been hard at work coopting classical history and Norse history for their own purposes for a few years now.
posted by at by at 4:12 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


More details on the "medical emergency" deaths from BuzzFeed News: one heart attack, one stroke, one crushed.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:13 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Was just on Resistbot. It’s swamped. 365,650 messages in last 24 hours. Looks like a swell of missives are being sent. Impeach now.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:13 PM on January 7


“Impeachment would not help unify this country,” a person close to Biden said...

I called my dad yesterday. He kept talking about how he grew up in the 1950s and 60s, when Eisenhower was president and politics was civil and people got along. He didn't understand why this was happening, who all these people invading the Capitol were, what the hell they were so angry about. He sounded confused and sad. I think Biden thinks this way too. I don't think he really gets that the GOP is consumed by a violently racist personality cult completely broken off from reality. I don't know if he's capable of dealing with what he doesn't understand.
posted by theodolite at 4:14 PM on January 7 [56 favorites]


I think the most damning smoking gun is this video of the entire Trump family in their battlefield tent in front of the White House orchestrating the attack in real time on their big screen TVs.

Look, the Trumps are obviously awful people, but that is not what that video is. That video was taken before the rally really got started, and I know this because I tuned in to watch it on cspan while I was waiting for the joint sesh to start. And I specifically remember this because they were playing Laura Branigan and I fucking love that song, and how dare they. They are watching the crowds gather for the rally.

It wouldn't be until approximately 45 minutes later that the entourage trotted out on stage one by one to incite the riot. (And also force the crowd to sing happy birthday to Eric.)
posted by phunniemee at 4:17 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Hawley, on losing his book deal: "This could not be more Orwellian."

Rita Meade: It's not Orwellian. Orwell got published.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:18 PM on January 7 [95 favorites]


New video statement up from Trump on his Twitter. Lying liar says what?
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:20 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


I have a huge thread to read here but regarding writing to reps and senators, I just tried to use Resistbot and had to be put in a queue. Lots of people are writing to their elected officials right now.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 4:21 PM on January 7


Trump claiming he immediately deployed the national guard, which is clearly not what happened.
posted by No One Ever Does at 4:22 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


It was reported earlier that he was going to Camp David for the weekend.
A military outpost inside a state park.
Maybe just maybe he is being quietly isolated. The equivilant of being taken away by the men in white coats.
No fuss. Few announcements. A military solution.
posted by adamvasco at 4:23 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Biden is in a precarious position regarding Trump's impeachment. Publicly supporting it reinforces every fraudulent narrative the right wing has been spouting about Biden right now (that, among other things, it's Biden attempting to overthrow Trump), and will motivate the right wing to aim the impeachment gun at him the moment he takes office -- which can't go off for at least two years but is guaranteed to slow down legislation at every opportunity.

Since Biden is not a member of Congress, it's safer for him and his pending administration to sit to the side on this. For that matter, nobody needs his endorsement anyway, it has nothing to do with him.
posted by at by at 4:23 PM on January 7 [63 favorites]


I used the contact form on my rep's house.gov site.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:23 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


FBI, Homeland Security Intelligence Unit Didn’t Issue a Risk Assessment for Pro-Trump Protests

Hands up anyone who's surprised.

...

Put your hand down, you liar.
posted by SansPoint at 4:23 PM on January 7 [41 favorites]


The video purporting to be the trumps orchestrating the attack in real time actually appears to be recorded before trump spoke to the crowd. You can clearly see the crowd waiting for a speech, while the inner circle is pumping themselves up for their performances. It's interesting, but it's not what it's being presented as.

This is my second post about videos that are being posted in this thread. I'm not your fact checker, so I'm out.
posted by joeyh at 4:24 PM on January 7 [29 favorites]


Biden is in a precarious position regarding Trump's impeachment. Publicly supporting it reinforces every fraudulent narrative the right wing has been spouting about Biden right now (that, among other things, it's Biden attempting to overthrow Trump), and will motivate the right wing to aim the impeachment gun at him the moment he takes office -- which can't go off for at least two years but is guaranteed to slow down legislation at every opportunity.

Excellent point. Don't feed the monster.
posted by ichomp at 4:24 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


What's with the weird camera angle when he's talking about the transition of power? Did they have to deepfake him saying something reasonable about that? Just so weird.
posted by phunniemee at 4:25 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


No way in hell Trump made that video by choice. What kind of leverage is somebody holding over him?
posted by COD at 4:26 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


“Impeachment would not help unify this country,” a person close to Biden said...

Appeasement doesn't work with fascists. Nor does it bring them over to your side. They are going to go right on fasc-ing until they face appropriately dire consequences.

In brief, impeachment won't help unify the county, but not impeaching also won't help unify the country either. If you impeach, at least the fascists are given pause. If you arrest and convict, even better. Fire and shame, awesome. There has to be consequences.

This doesn't mean Biden has to support it and feed into the fevered right wing narrative, but I would hope he stays out of the way once impeachment starts rolling again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:26 PM on January 7 [24 favorites]


CNN now saying that a Capital Police officer has died as a result of "events stemming from Wednesday's riot".

So that's five dead, just as a direct and immediate result.
posted by Kadin2048 at 4:28 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


What are the odds that Trump is going to contradict something in his speech and tweet something inflammatory in the next hour?
posted by meowzilla at 4:28 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


CNN has reported as of an hour and a half ago that Trump is not going to Camp David. No link because it's part of their "live update" scroll that will disappear by later tonight.

The bit also notes a claim from an admin official that this trip was already planned and on his calendar.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:28 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Anyone got a transcript of the Trump video? I don't want to hear his voice unless I absolutely have to.
posted by SansPoint at 4:29 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


I think it's wise for Biden specifically to stay quiet on impeachment, but I think it's better for Pelosi & the rest in Congress to move on impeachment or the 25th than to not do so. Trump did what he did. It requires some official effort to remove, even with the clock ticking down and all the other factors. The alternative is, "Yeah, he tried a coup, but we didn't feel like impeaching over it."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:29 PM on January 7 [16 favorites]


Hey don't forget about contacting local officials, folks, I don't think my local city council or county sheriff can do much about the President but the horribleness is fractal, it looks the same no matter how local or national you zoom. We need to get ALL our politicians to step up here.
posted by Gygesringtone at 4:29 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


What kind of leverage is somebody holding over him?

Pence & Co. threatening to 25A him if he doesn't behave?

No, I'm being naively optimistic again.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:30 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Trump "going to Camp David" sounds kinda the same way that one might take their dog to a farm upstate... It sounds pleasant.... I hear the wild flags are in season this time of year and maybe he can chase them down and hug them - gleefully and peacefully. Who's been a good boy? Donny's been a good boy - yeah... you're gonna get to chase the flags down and hug them buddy. Everything will be all right once we can get you out of the car...
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:31 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


New video statement up from Trump on his Twitter.

I want to fucking vomit watching that charlatan.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:31 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Alec Baldwin does a better Trump than the Trump in that video. Something’s odd about it, that’s for sure.
posted by abuckamoon at 4:32 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


And at the end of the video when he thanks his “wonderful supporters” and tells them “the journey is only just beginning”. Fucking Asshole. He’s continuing to encourage them. Twitter should delete for that alone.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:33 PM on January 7 [34 favorites]


I was actually on the phone with Leader Hoyer who was pleading with us to send the guard,” Hogan said. “He was yelling across the room to Schumer and they were back and forth saying we do have the authorization and I’m saying, ‘I’m telling you we do not have the authorization.' ”


So, this is Trump's Mirror Benghazi?
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 4:34 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


No way in hell Trump made that video by choice. What kind of leverage is somebody holding over him?

Now the countdown until some talking head calls him "presidential" begins.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:35 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Yeah, they’ve gotta impeach. I know I posted like 3 or 4 days ago that there wasn’t enough time, but still, they have to.

Only downside is if the trial stretches pst the 20th, and it’s mostly moot. They would still be able to ban him from holding any Federal office (and they sure as hell should), but it’d lose momentum and they’ll have confirmations to do.

BTW, in a trial of the President, you don’t get the VP tiebreaker. But they probably wouldn’t go forward unless they thought they’d have some Republicans on board.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:35 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


For comparison, here’s what he tweeted 24 hours ago (which was deleted and got him put in twitter jail): “These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!”
posted by theodolite at 4:35 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


What kind of leverage is somebody holding over him?

Pence & Co. threatening to 25A him if he doesn't behave?


Trump is the Twilight Zone's "The Howling Man". He'll try to do just enough to convince suckers that he's really not all that bad, so he can slip out of being prevented from ever holding office, and as soon as he's free and clear, he'll do whatever he can to wreck the world.
posted by cashman at 4:35 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Now the countdown until some talking head calls him "presidential" begins.

I got $20 on Van Jones at 3-1 in Vegas right now.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:36 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Now the countdown until some talking head calls him "presidential" begins.

Nevermind, it's already happening:

I don't fucking believe it but @DanaBashCNN just said Trump is showing "a new tone" I'm not fucking kidding
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:37 PM on January 7 [23 favorites]


Capitol Police chief to resign over botched handling of riot attack
U.S. Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund announced his resignation effective Jan. 16, a decision that came hours after Pelosi publicly called on him to step down over the department’s handling of the violent pro-Trump siege of the Capitol. [...]

His resignation came on a day a union of Capitol Police officers issued a public statement saying their leadership had failed them and the lack of planning created the worst breach on the Capitol since the War of 1812.

Earlier in the day Sund suggested that while plans to protect the Capitol were in place, his department was unprepared for the intensity of the insurrection. “The violent attack on the U.S. Capitol was unlike any I have ever experienced in my 30 years in law enforcement here in Washington, D.C.,” he said.

Sund’s comments were roundly criticized because rioters had been hashing out plans to storm the Capitol on right-wing websites for days.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:37 PM on January 7 [21 favorites]


No way in hell Trump made that video by choice. What kind of leverage is somebody holding over him?

This is straight up abuser shit. He cornered, so now he's ready to talk and be reasonable and why is everybody so angry?
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:38 PM on January 7 [71 favorites]


I don't fucking believe it but @DanaBashCNN just said Trump is showing "a new tone" I'm not fucking kidding

I'd like to see the video. Sounds like a good chance as a journalist, she's describing the way he's talking, compared to how he's been sounding in all the day-of clips they've been running.
posted by cashman at 4:40 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Got through the queue on Resistbot. It informed me that it has sent 372,227 messages in the past 24 hours!
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 4:40 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Impeachment is a function of the Congress so it's appropriate for Biden to defer to Congress regarding their plans. It's also important for Biden to appear to be the President of all Americans (not just Democrats) so it's important for him to not be seen as pursuing a vendetta against a political opponent.

Now if the DoJ decides to investigate and prosecute the Trumps and their allies that's fine assuming they wouldn't be doing it for political reasons or at the behest of the President or Vice-President.

It's really important for the President-Elect to start the process of returning to established norms rather than engage in partisan actions even if doing so would be extremely gratifying for many of us.
posted by vuron at 4:41 PM on January 7 [29 favorites]


Here's the video. It's clear Dana Bash is describing it as a journalist.
posted by cashman at 4:41 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


The Guardian has the transcript.
posted by Acey at 4:43 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Alicia Garza is referring to the rioters as "Vanilla Isis" repeatedly on Joy Reid's show right now and that works in so many ways as a apt and appropriate descriptor full of all the meanings, for me.
posted by cashman at 4:44 PM on January 7 [38 favorites]


Four points:
  • The official measure of Wednesday's casualties is that the Nazis got “a Benghazi worth of Americans killed.” ...Er, on preview, a Benghazi the day of, one today.
  • The main public message needs to be “Not caring about shit is still making a decision, that's how we got into this whole mess.”
  • I sympathize with “Trumpism must become the Nazism of America”, but there are many people of color alive right now who couldn't vote, couldn't drink at whites-only water fountains, needed the Green Book, and couldn't buy a sandwich in a diner until they were teenagers or young adults or later. I fear that treating Trumpism as exceptional, rather than the American default, still won't be going far enough: 2020 Germany is not doing as badly as we are but their post-WWII generation definitely did not comprehensively deal with Nazism, despite the fact that people have to drive down to Italy to buy fascist memorabilia and Hitler wine.
  • My pitch for a new political system: a unification of all top-level professional sports organizations. It's the only thing with substantial immediate representation of PoC which might also obtain assent from American Nazis and the Nazi-curious. To signify your agreement, pledge fealty to your nearest NFL-Elector or NBA-Elector of the Supreme Sportsocrat. We can work out the details later.
    And yes, this would mean intentionally concentrating political power in urban centers, so that the territory of my currently-swing-state with two Senators, which has no professional sports teams and just shut down its only... uh... minor league? hockey franchise, would have no political power whatsoever in the new order. Oops. I know nothing about sports, which is possibly the source of my enthusiasm.
    I'm only sort of half-kidding... yes, it's stupid, but so is everything else.
posted by XMLicious at 4:45 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


@poniewozik: I want the oral history of that whiplash edit between "Now Congress has certified the results" and "A new administration will be inaugurated on January 20."
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:45 PM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Here's the video. It's clear Dana Bash is describing it as a journalist.

It gets cut off at the end, but she says "So, yes, for the first time, he accepted reality." That is not journalism, that's pretending the last several years of Trump's behavior when it comes to being contrite just never happened.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:45 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


So the John Scott-Railton threads suggest that within the clown parade that there was an organized group with military equipment and serious purpose of at least taking Congresspeople hostage. And at least one of them has been tentatively identified (though not publicly, which I think is wise) as a retired military officer, senior rank.
posted by tavella at 4:45 PM on January 7 [42 favorites]


> The [Capitol Police] weren’t expecting what actually happened

This is literally unbelievable, especially in the context of the goddamn Pentagon giving them a heads-up.


My roommate has spent some time hanging around the Capital and Congress, and says that based on his encounters with them, you can kind of tell that the dudes that get assigned to the Capital detail are "the guys you think it's okay to put in a place where nothing is really ever going to happen".

I called my dad yesterday. He kept talking about how he grew up in the 1950s and 60s, when Eisenhower was president and politics was civil and people got along. He didn't understand why this was happening, who all these people invading the Capitol were, what the hell they were so angry about. He sounded confused and sad.

A couple years ago my parents and I were having a conversation about the state of the country, and my father broke my heart when he said "I used to think this was the greatest country in the world....but I don't feel like that any more."

(Thanking all the powers that be, yet again, that my parents are into Rachel Maddow instead of Tucker Carlson.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:46 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]


Um, what happened to that vaunted "Trump's suspended on Twitter" thing?
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:46 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


It's really important for the President-Elect to start the process of returning to established norms

Cults are not big on norms.
posted by benzenedream at 4:47 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


In the video, he does not accept that he actually lost the election or that the incoming administration is legitimate.
posted by theodolite at 4:48 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


From earlier in the thread, This Must Be Your First In Turkey, they have a richer vocabulary for talking about coups.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:48 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


I mean, it does seem like Trump is drugged with some pretty heavy sedatives or antipsychotics in that video, right?
posted by luckdragon at 4:48 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Two most obvious lies from Trump's speech.

First his claim that he immediately deployed the National Guard. We have contradicting testimony from the DC mayor, the governor of Virginia and the governor of Maryland. He lied.

Second, "to those who engaged in acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country. To those who broke the law, you will pay." Yesterday Trump released a video in real time in which he said to these very same people during their acts of violence "We love you. You are special. Go home in peace."

Trump certainly seems weird when he works off a Teleprompter. It's like they have electrodes attached to his genitals in case he goes off script.
posted by JackFlash at 4:49 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]




Look up the official websites for your US Representative and US Senators and use the contact forms to demand Trump's removal from office via impeachment or the 25th. Getting through on the phone is tough.
posted by jointhedance at 4:50 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


I called my dad yesterday. He kept talking about how he grew up in the 1950s and 60s, when Eisenhower was president and politics was civil and people got along. He didn't understand why this was happening, who all these people invading the Capitol were, what the hell they were so angry about. He sounded confused and sad.

Just responding to the characterization of those decades, not your dad (I'm sorry he's sad and confused). The 60s were among the most violent eras in recent US history - assassinations, riots, war, a president who resigned, inflation, protests on college campuses. This reminds me a *lot* of the 1960s and early 70s. Only worse.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:50 PM on January 7 [40 favorites]


Now the countdown until some talking head calls him "presidential" begins.

Nevermind, it's already happening:

I don't fucking believe it but @DanaBashCNN just said Trump is showing "a new tone" I'm not fucking kidding


Just 47 and a half months into his term, he made the pivot.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:51 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


> Um, what happened to that vaunted "Trump's suspended on Twitter" thing?

Trump had a timeout of twelve hours, reinstatement contingent on his deleting a tweet.
posted by at by at 4:51 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]




I think the Twitter account that got banned was his personal account not the POTUS account.
posted by vuron at 4:53 PM on January 7


Just a quick comment on Larry Hogan, he's the governor of the state I live in. I never voted for him... He disappoints me regularly, but he's as legit as you can get as far as being a decent person. He's kinda like Chris Christie post superstorm sandy version.

Andy Harris, he can go suck a toad.
posted by kiwi-epitome at 4:55 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Trump certainly seems weird when he works off a Teleprompter.

That weird head-tilt he keeps doing at the beginning; like a dog repeatedly asking to be thrown the ball.

And yeah, his suspension from Twitter was temporary and contingent on him deleting the 3 inciting tweets; although I'm surprised that he actually did delete them rather than digging his heels in on they-can't-tell-me-what-to-do reactance.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:56 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


It gets cut off at the end, but she says

You're talking about another statement she made. Not the part at issue. The video had just aired so she may have made additional statements and started to take a first view of it live on air that ultimately drifted to that belief or purporting that belief to try to stoke peace or do whatever, but the issue was the initial descriptor of it being a different tone. It was a different tone. Period. If I said "hey, his latest video, he sounds different than he did yesterday", that's factual truth. He does.

But now I get why Joeyh bounced out of here, rather than sit here and try to be real about things, it's just going to devolve into a desire to argue about something and try to mince words and characterizations and what not. If she does this constantly from an objective person's point of view, fine. If not, that's fine too.

I should have learned from the last time when Trump was getting elected and a ton of us mefites were so sure then, and even for years after that "Trump doesn't really want to be president", that if people want to see something, they will. Like that Hillbilly elegy stuff. If she's a trash journalist who has fallen for the propaganda yet again by saying what she said, and her further statements make it clear that it wasn't only in the later moments but indeed in that initial interaction she was indeed saying he's turned the page and agreed to repent for his sins and have his come to Jesus moment, then you're right and that's sickening. It's a harrowing time. Stay safe and be well.
posted by cashman at 4:56 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


> I think the Twitter account that got banned was his personal account not the POTUS account.

@realdonaldtrump was the account that got locked. It's unlocked now.
posted by at by at 4:57 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


You know he's really in danger and knows it now that he's being conciliatory. On preview: yeah, classic abuser. When this doesn't work, he'll go right back to lashing out.

Josh Marshall:
Yesterday that video wld have bought him a lot, unfortunately. The WSJ calling for his removal, combined with news that his supporters beat a Capitol Police officer to death puts him in a deeply precarious position.

There’s a real chance here that Joe Biden will end up being the 47th President.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:07 PM on January 7 [20 favorites]


[Gov. Hogan] disappoints me regularly, but he's as legit as you can get as far as being a decent person. He's kinda like Chris Christie post superstorm sandy version.

I admired his stealth covid-19 test kit delivery back in May but then Hogan voted for Reagan two months ago, and had to tell us all about it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:12 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Also for the record, I asked some religious family of mine if they thought Trump was the devil recently. So just so we're clear. I feel like not only the media but many do a thing where when they encounter evil, they try to see the god in people, their humanity. A lot of people who deal with those who have committed horrible acts try to find the good in them and bring it out, nurture it and help it grow. I actually talked to a man today who spent a year in jail, and he talked about people who'd helped him try to turn things around and he wanted to keep on that path and not "lose it" as it termed it.

So I've noted the media trying that for years, but as I say above, I feel like trump is truly evil. A few comments ago I mentioned how what he is pulling feels to me like the story told in "The Howling Man", where the literal devil convinces mankind that he isn't that evil. Trump is evil. Trump is the president. I've seen media for years try to take people they are talking to that have enacted horrible policies and done horrible things, and appeal to their humanity and give them credit for any little thing they've done. A friend calls it "clapping for a fish, for swimming". I get it. It happens. And to me personally, it feels like once that stops being a thing to do, only war is left.

You've seen that video where Kimberly Jones says "They're lucky black people only want equality and not revenge"? Once people fully accept the evil of people like Trump and Cruz and Hawley, and stop trying to clap for a fish swimming? There are going to be confrontations and death and war.

Many of my family member and a lot of friends who have been convinced to be christians have fully embraced this idea of seeing the best in these situations. Forgiving. Trying to be Jesus-like and thinking anyone can be redeemed as long as they repent and....take on a new tone.

Take that away? There are going to be problems. So I get the media characterization issues. I get what the media tries to do with some of that, like a lot of religious people in my family and friends do. Maybe this is a good thing though. We eliminate that and start having the confrontations, some accountability, and after all is said and done, maybe we'll have a society where devils like Trump can no longer emerge and take office.
posted by cashman at 5:12 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


Uh, if Amazon is not giving the love on getting Stephen Graham's book , Cities Under Seige, mentioned way upthread the Internet provides through the usual direct link sources in both PDF and ePub.

Anyway, the warning letter provided by all the living Secretaries of Defense a few days earlier wasn't just a warning to Trump in using the military for election interference it was a reminder to Pentagon members that oaths were made to the Consitution and not to a particular individual. So yeah, I totally get that there is a rot that must be rooted out and that it was not just stray cospalyers accidentally traipsing into a different production.
posted by jadepearl at 5:16 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


There’s a real chance here that Joe Biden will end up being the 47th President.

OK, I like Josh Marshall, I really do, but the words "real chance" in that context are delusional.
posted by Room 101 at 5:17 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Sund suggested that while plans to protect the Capitol were in place, his department was unprepared for the intensity of the insurrection. “The violent attack on the U.S. Capitol was unlike any I have ever experienced in my 30 years in law enforcement here in Washington, D.C.,” he said.

Oh, so he's admitting that BLM protests were more peaceful that this one. In that case, why the difference in treatment?

In 2017, they arrested 43 disabled people for sitting or lying on the floor... if this was so much more violent, why didn't it result in more arrests?

(Something-something Iraq war protests; it's almost impossible to find news about older protests at the capitol right now.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:20 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


I don't fucking believe it but @DanaBashCNN just said Trump is showing "a new tone" I'm not fucking kidding

Oh, I heard someone on NPR yesterday saying that the day's events mean that "we" cannot stay in "our" information silos anymore and that we must "talk to each other". Perhaps they were thinking of Trump voters in general, not the people coming to DC to interfere with the election certification (although that makes no sense, since the topic was the crisis still ongoing), but I wanted to yell at radio, how can you still not see that these extremists are not going to sit down for a symposium with you; they want to murder you?
posted by thelonius at 5:22 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


"Trump inciting a riot and then calling for prosecution of rioters in a clumsy attempt to exculpate himself is such a classic Trump move. You could almost feel sorry for the people too stupid to see it coming. " -- popehat
posted by valkane at 5:23 PM on January 7 [33 favorites]


Congresswoman Cori Bush will introduce a resolution to sanction or potentially remove from office House members who supported challenges

Wrong house, I think. Representatives are supposed to represent what their constituents want them to do. To be sure, they should also be persuading their voters with the truth. In all of these cases they bear the responsibility of being lying liars, inflaming this nonsense instead of de-escalating it. But to the extent they disagree with what the voters clearly want, substituting their own judgment would be effectively removing those people's right to representation.

Senators, on the other hand, are supposed to be the conscience, the adults in the room. And 7 of them were intentionally not.
posted by ctmf at 5:24 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


TheDonald.win reacts to Trump's concession video. They're... not fans.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:26 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


At my wife's job today, she overheard her boss (who seems like a genuinely nice person) and a customer saying they wished they could take their votes for Trump back. Hearing which made me feel many things.

For one thing, no, you fucking can't, so maybe pay a little more fucking attention next time.

For another, at least there is some fraction of Trump voters out there who apparently are so low-information that they are genuinely surprised and appalled by this. It boggles my mind but there it is. I don't know how you could have paid even the slightest attention to the news over the last five years and not seen this coming: Trump has repeatedly told us who he is, and then shown us that he's not joking about it.

I wish that people like my wife's boss would develop enough self-awareness to realize that they've displayed extremely poor judgment in exercising the simplest, most basic part of their civic duty, and that they need to seriously reflect on how they could have screwed up so badly and make some changes so they don't do it again. Sadly I have no expectation that most people are capable of this.
posted by biogeo at 5:26 PM on January 7 [59 favorites]


My roommate has spent some time hanging around the Capital and Congress, and says that based on his encounters with them, you can kind of tell that the dudes that get assigned to the Capital detail are "the guys you think it's okay to put in a place where nothing is really ever going to happen".

The Capitol Police are their own Federal agency with a $460M budget and 2300 officers and employees.
posted by Sockdown at 5:27 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Honestly, we do need to talk to one another more. We need to be more careful about painting every Trump supporter as racist, too. Yeah, I know. I get it. I’m not excusing the disgusting stuff. I also don’t believe every Trump supporter is racist.

There are legitimate, economic grievances they have with root cause in our dystopian capitalist nightmare that might just open them up to more government oriented policies than we realize.

Which is what all of us need.
posted by glaucon at 5:27 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


National treasure Alexandra Petri is all out of funnies

"Like most things in the age of Trump, this had all the visible markings of a cruel parody but was the thing itself."
posted by kirkaracha at 5:27 PM on January 7 [24 favorites]


Oh, I heard someone on NPR yesterday saying that the day's events mean that "we" cannot stay in "our" information silos anymore and that we must "talk to each other".

I've been horrified at how much worse the BBC has become over the last several years, it's clear that NPR needs serious reform to prevent it from going the same direction.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:29 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


The Capitol Police are telling people that none of their officers have in fact died. So we are back at 4 deaths.
posted by sideshow at 5:29 PM on January 7


OK, I like Josh Marshall, I really do, but the words "real chance" in that context are delusional.

I mean, yeah, that's my gut reaction on some level, but also I have to concede that Josh Marshall knows a lot more about establishment politics than I do
posted by schadenfrau at 5:29 PM on January 7


Mike Davis: Riot on the Hill

(Mike Davis 2020 Election overview: Trench Warfare)
posted by ovvl at 5:29 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Strange, CNN says "three sources confirm" that an officer died, while AP reporter Mike Balsamo saying it is not the case. Time will tell I guess.
posted by gwint at 5:31 PM on January 7


But now another source at the USCP is saying one of their people was taken off life support and has died, so: 🤷‍♀️
posted by sideshow at 5:33 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


My roommate has spent some time hanging around the Capital and Congress, and says that based on his encounters with them, you can kind of tell that the dudes that get assigned to the Capital detail are "the guys you think it's okay to put in a place where nothing is really ever going to happen".

40 or more years ago, or some cases years less, it was like that because they were patronage posts in a smaller force. The 1983 Senate bombing changed things.

The Capitol Police are their own Federal agency with a $460M budget.
posted by jgirl at 5:33 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


‘I’ve Been Selfish And Arrogant, And I Apologize,’ Says Content, Mentally Healthy Trump Minutes After Social Media Ban
WASHINGTON—Projecting a calm, measured assurance as he reflected on his personal shortcomings, a content and mentally sound President Trump told reporters just minutes after his ban from social media Thursday that he had been “selfish and arrogant,” and he apologized unconditionally for his behavior. “I’ve lied to myself and the country, lashed out at those who love me, and hurt a lot of people along the way,” said Trump, who, after 15 minutes of being unable to tweet or post updates to Facebook, gathered together friends, family, and the entire White House press corps to let them know that love is the only thing that truly matters. “I just took a walk with a dear friend who I haven’t spoken to in ages, and as we sat on a bench staring at the Potomac, I asked him, ‘What am I doing with my life?’ Over the past quarter hour, I’ve realized that caring for others, lending a hand to someone in need—these are the only things in this world that can give a man true integrity. I hope you all have it in your hearts to forgive me for my pride and my many failures in this life.” At press time, Trump was overheard asking House Speaker Nancy Pelosi if she had ever noticed how beautiful a simple goldfinch was, while suggesting the two of them go birding together in the Adirondacks after he left office.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:34 PM on January 7 [31 favorites]


National security equities” may have been among the records stolen from the Capitol on Wednesday.
“items, electronic items were stolen from senators’ offices, documents and materials were stolen, 
posted by adamvasco at 5:36 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


One identified as as a retired military officer, senior rank.

Speaking as a veteran, since he's on the pension, he's still UCMJ. And that's treason. Military punishment for that is death. And I'm sure he's ok with the death penalty for others.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:36 PM on January 7 [46 favorites]


in case you're looking for a solid of summary of what happened from a reputable source (Reuters):

Crisis at the Capitol

How a pro-Trump mob stormed the U.S. Capitol as lawmakers debated the final certification of the presidential election


A quick breakdown:

- Trump addresses rally
- Supporters march to the Capitol
- Breaching security
- Evacuation
- Rioters roam the halls
- Calls to quell the violence
- Order restored
- Congress reconvenes

posted by philip-random at 5:37 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


‘I’ve Been Selfish And Arrogant, And I Apologize,’ Says Content, Mentally Healthy Trump Minutes After Social Media Ban

Reminder: Please be sure to tag these as [real] or [fa... Oh fuckit, this gets an exception.
posted by mrgoat at 5:38 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Josh Hawley:

"You fist-pumped insurrectionists and baselessly attacked our elections. Your actions fueled a riot and you fundraised in the chaos. Five people are dead.

Even your GOP colleagues have distanced from your acts.

Yet here you are crying over a book deal. You should be expelled."
posted by valkane at 5:40 PM on January 7 [150 favorites]


For another, at least there is some fraction of Trump voters out there who apparently are so low-information that they are genuinely surprised and appalled by this. It boggles my mind but there it is.

Oh it's way worse than you think and it's not just Trump voters and it's not just America. It's not a coincidence that at the end of the day, charisma beats policy in almost every single election.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:41 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


We absolutely need accountability. My step father is completely brainwashed. He will do a 180 on any topic if instructed to during his daily five hour Fox News consumption. Thankfully he's too old (and frankly, too much of a coward) to do anything violent.

There are plenty of people who are dangerous, and that includes every person who walked over to the Capitol Building. Everyone involved, including the organizers and the inciters, needs to get cuffed and sent to trial. They need a serious and undeniable reality check.

If America has a home, it's the Capitol Building. If there's such a thing as treason, this is it. If we fail to fully prosecute everyone, regardless of their title or connections or legal resources, it won't be long before this weakness is exploited by enemies foreign or domestic. It would be a terrible loss for us and for the world, but it's not impossible. Hopefully we have at least learned that lesson, but the cynic in me is worried we have not.
posted by nicoffeine at 5:43 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]




cashman, thanks for sharing that. For myself, as an atheist Humanist, I believe that actions are evil, not people. But the last several years have really tested my commitment to that idea. As far as I can tell, Donald Trump's entire being is composed of nothing but the absolute worst impulses and values of our society, and there appears to be nothing within him that could motivate him to do good, to call him to a higher purpose. If it is indeed coherent to speak of people as evil, he, his family, and his inner circle seem as close to such a thing as is possible. This seems obvious. And yet he is beloved and admired by millions.

There is a sickness in our society, that people can look at that and see something worth celebrating. White Evangelicals need to answer for the fact that they have become modern-day Pharisees; conservative libertarians for the fact that they have sacrificed liberty at the altar of Mammon. Until these hypocrites acknowledge what they have done, and make amends in sincerity, there can be no real healing of the divisions in our society.
posted by biogeo at 5:45 PM on January 7 [29 favorites]


@heyitscalla (Calla Hayes)
It should not shock any of y’all that I was able to identify multiple terrorists from yesterday - all because they’ve stood on the sidewalk protesting my clinic at one point or another.

It should not shock you that several of my friends and colleagues could identify them, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:46 PM on January 7 [57 favorites]


Astead Herndon: Zuck said hand over the govt and we'll let u post again (9h ago)

Astead Herndon: had a moment today when I thought "Trump is locked out of social media how can he communicate with the public" like all history pre-2007 did not exist (1h ago)

Astead Herndon: concede or lose the ability to post? i'll take concede (1h ago)

Astead is maybe the only tick-tock I need.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:47 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Honestly, we do need to talk to one another more. We need to be more careful about painting every Trump supporter as racist, too. Yeah, I know. I get it. I’m not excusing the disgusting stuff. I also don’t believe every Trump supporter is racist.

I agree, but don't you think that the kind of centrist reflex that I quoted is inadequate as a response to the radicalized Trump supporters' growing boldness and willingness to take direct action, that we just saw? I'm not thinking of listening to voters who are concerned, say, that there are too many regulations on business, or that covid shutdowns are too costly, or something like that.

I've been horrified at how much worse the BBC has become over the last several years, it's clear that NPR needs serious reform to prevent it from going the same direction.

At least they still don't accept blatant question evasion from interview subjects, as far as I know at least. They'll interrupt the evasive speech and say, wait, that has nothing to do with what I asked. The only time I can recall hearing an American journalist push back like that against a government official or politician in an interview is for a few days just after Hurricane Katrina.
posted by thelonius at 5:47 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


A quick breakdown:

- Trump addresses rally
Let's not forget that Don Jr was up there too, working up the crowd.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:48 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Don Jr. had the boring, noblesse oblige tone of a VP addressing the company Christmas party. He didn't fire up shit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:51 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Throwing the most deplorable n% of trumpists in prison for sedition sounds like a great way to calm things down a bit... Chop out the most malignant part of the mass, and it won't be there to further rot the adjacent mostly-rotten mass, after all.

Apropos of nothing, here's the US Senate page on the history of explusion, complete with links to each case's description and outcome in actually-pretty-long-form. Turns out the best way to get expelled was support for the confederacy, and everything else is hit-or-miss, due to the supermajority rule.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:51 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


I've been horrified at how much worse the BBC has become over the last several years, it's clear that NPR needs serious reform to prevent it from going the same direction.

Oh, I think the horse would need to turn around to see that particular barn door. NPR news offerings are up with the worst offenders among the both-siderism "view from nowhere" approach to reporting.

People think they are liberal, they think they are liberal, but then they and (some) listeners think their performatively "balanced" takes mean they are tough, hard-minded high quality observers. They are not.
posted by mark k at 5:51 PM on January 7 [39 favorites]


It's not a coincidence that at the end of the day, charisma beats policy in almost every single election.

What's remarkable is that my wife's boss claims he made his voting decisions on the basis of evaluating the policies of the two candidates and selecting the one that more closely reflected his priorities. Which, I mean, frankly if that's true it makes me think much much less of the man, because Trump's policies are at least as horrible as he himself is. But I actually think when he says "policy" he means "vague contentless statement like 'fiscal responsibility' that doesn't mean anything but sounds good if you're a low-information conservative," rather than "an actionable plan for achieving a goal".
posted by biogeo at 5:52 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


“The White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he could face legal exposure for the riot given that he had urged his supporters to march to the Capitol and ‘fight’ beforehand.” -- Ryan Goodman
posted by valkane at 5:53 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


25th is pretty much off the table at this point short of Trump trying to start WWIII. Chao wanted to go down that route and there apparently wasn't support (as other have said was completely self-evident). The reality is that nobody wants to be seen as the Brutus to Trump's Caesar. Short of a ton of Senators deciding that an impeachment would be a good time to stick the dagger into Trump to block any chance of Trump running in 2024 I can't see that being a viable alternative but it should be begun if for no other reason than to begin collecting evidence for a future prosecution. If nothing else I think fear for their lives and careers and the lives of their families should they support impeachment will prevent Republicans from crossing over to support impeachment in any numbers.

I still think that if Trump were remotely competent at this point he'd resign in order to have Pence pardon him since the concept of the President being able to self-pardon is definitely untested water. However he's so inherently distrustful and egomaniacal that he's probably thinking Pence would renege on the deal or he just can't stomach the thought of giving up any power voluntarily.

It's really interesting to see how the 2024 hopefuls are positioning themselves currently. I think there is an understanding that Republican need to harness the Trumpista faction in order to have a remote chance in high turnout elections thus the Hawley-Cruz attempts to become Trump-lite successors. However Tuesday showed that adopting Trump like stances doesn't necessarily win you elections if Trump isn't actually on the ballot. Establishment republicans who you also need to please if you can't "billionaire" self-fund are also likely to view Cruz and Hawley's actions in a negative light. Plus the reality is that you can't really out-Trump Trump so if Trump runs again in 2024 or god forbid Junior or Ivanka then I don't now that Trump only slightly less insane is a viable base of support given the current Republican party.

I think for a lot of 2024 hopefuls the ideal scenario is that either the Biden Administration or state prosecutors pursue cases against Trump and company and are successful at either convicting Trump (and Junior) or do enough to damage him that an 2024 run becomes impossible. In this case you get rid of the likely odds-on frontrunner while also being able to claim that Trump is being victimized by Democrats. Of course I'm not sure how many Republicans are thinking that far ahead.
posted by vuron at 5:53 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


on the basis of evaluating the policies of the two candidates and selecting the one that more closely reflected his priorities.

I seem to recall this past election, Trump's entire platform was "support Trump."
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:54 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


NPR@NPR
A tale of two police responses: George Floyd protests vs. the violent pro-Trump insurrection.
[video comparing police beating BLM protesters with the lack of response at the Capitol]
4:10 PM · Jan 7, 2021·SocialFlow
1.9K Retweets 121 Quote Tweets 3.8K Likes
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:55 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Honestly, we do need to talk to one another more. We need to be more careful about painting every Trump supporter as racist, too. Yeah, I know. I get it. I’m not excusing the disgusting stuff. I also don’t believe every Trump supporter is racist.

Honestly, if someone wants to do that, fine. I am not into telling people what “we need to do.” But I feel the exact opposite way. They all supported bigotry and they all deserve to be completely ostracized from polite society. I have no interest in interacting with any of them or listening to their sniveling excuses about only supporting racism for tax reasons. I want to work with the other 70% of the population to make things better and raise future generations to be better. And I think that is the most practical thing to do.
posted by snofoam at 5:56 PM on January 7 [97 favorites]


I might be misremembering, but: Doesn’t the Constitution create two possible penalties for impeachment, removal and a ban on future office? Do those need to go together? I mean I think they should, but I wonder if you might be able to get 67 Senators on board with “OK, it’s probably logistically easiest to let him finish the two weeks, but we can’t let him run again.” There so obviously has to be some kind of consequence (if you don’t have consequences, you don’t have a country, people. Simple as that.) but the only options look like impeachment or the 25th.

I definitely think Biden does best to not talk about impeaching. Best for him to simply say that the House of Representatives has the sole power of impeachment and leave it there. But fuck the “forward not backward” train.
posted by nickmark at 5:59 PM on January 7




One thought I have about the consequences of impeachment... Trump is not a career politician. Being banned from public office will not deprive him of his livelihood, because he's never going to run for any other office anyway. He's been banned from other enterprises before, it's never slowed him down. He's going to do what he's done his whole life, which is move on to the next grift.

I'm sure he has fantasies of continuing to be the public power of the state, but once he's out of the White House he'll be happy to parlay his resentment into building a following and milking it for big bucks,. In 2024 he'll be 78 and probably more interested in mentoring his sons into politics and living like the godfather of a Trump political family.
posted by at by at 6:01 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


> Forgiving. Trying to be Jesus-like and thinking anyone can be redeemed as long as they repent and....take on a new tone.

What I say is (though I'm an atheist and everyone knows it, so it doesn't go very far) loving your enemy does not mean that they stop being your enemy or that you let them commit genocide or do other bad things. Allowing someone to commit genocide or overthrow a democratic government is not an expression of love, it's something else, and it's not an attitude Jesus endorsed. (And then if I can tell from their eyes that they're not listening to me anyways I add, Not even the wacky blinding-then-healing-his-neighbors, killing-then-resurrecting his playmates Jesus from the Apocrypha.)

> We need to be more careful about painting every Trump supporter as racist, too.

No. Just, no. Inadvertently characterizing as a participant in racism a Trump supporter, who also by the way is quite likely a white American, who might, if you squint, be gracious deep down in their heart of hearts on issues of race, is not in any way whatsoever some kind of terrible thing that must be avoided at all costs.

We have filled up our slate with terrible things to avoid at all costs. This is not one of them.

We've been in “open public mainstream propositions of genocide” territory for half a decade at least now. Plain speech about racism and white supremacy is far, far more important than anyone's feels, indeed we need to get past white fragility in public discussion of it.
posted by XMLicious at 6:01 PM on January 7 [51 favorites]


Every Trump supporter is a racist.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:02 PM on January 7 [102 favorites]


Soon all the Cabinet secretaries will be gone and Pence can just 25th himself into the White House.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:04 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


WUSA9 reporter Bruce Leshan @BruceLeshan
CORRECTION Capitol Police union chair Gus Papathanasiou now says the officer has NOT passed away, but is still on life support, until his family can arrive. He and I deeply regret getting ahead of the story. @wusa9
posted by Mitheral at 6:07 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


The White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he could face legal exposure for the riot given that he had urged his supporters to march to the Capitol and ‘fight’ beforehand.

It's insane that a lawyer had to explain that
posted by jason_steakums at 6:07 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


I mean, lots of non Trump supporters are racists too, America is saturated with racism like a sponge in a sink, it’s our founding ethos, it’s the air that we breathe, it’s so incredibly common and yet we insist on painting it as something exotic.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:08 PM on January 7 [58 favorites]


It's insane that a lawyer had to explain that

It explains the hostage video he just released. And that different angle butt-splice halfway thru was when Trump started talking about winning bigly and Pat had to shout "CUT! START OVER!"
posted by valkane at 6:10 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


Politico:
“One current Metro D.C. police officer said in a public Facebook post that off-duty police officers and members of the military, who were among the rioters, flashed their badges and I.D. cards as they attempted to overrun the building.”
Confirmation of the obvious is always helpful, I guess
posted by schadenfrau at 6:13 PM on January 7 [16 favorites]


Speaking as a veteran, since he's on the pension, he's still UCMJ. And that's treason. Military punishment for that is death. And I'm sure he's ok with the death penalty for others.

We may need a military tribunal for a lot of these people, before this is all done.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:13 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Raffensperger and Kemp file an appeal response to the voluntary dismissal in Georgia.
"Plaintiff Donald J. Trump voluntarily dismissed this litigation contending the dismissal is a result of settlement between the Parties. It is not. There is no “settlement.” The demonstrably false characterizations by Plaintiff’s counsel are addressed herein in this response"
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:14 PM on January 7 [51 favorites]


Washington police say 68 people have so far been arrested, only one of them from the DC area. [...] On Thursday, crews began installing a non-scalable 7ft (2m) fence around the Capitol. It will remain in place for at least 30 days. (BBC)

Michelle Obama's statement on the riots at the U.S. Capitol (Thread reader link), excerpted:

This summer’s Black Lives Matter protests were an overwhelmingly peaceful movement—our nation’s largest demonstrations ever, bringing together people of every race and class and encouraging millions to re-examine their own assumptions and behavior. And yet, in city after city, day after day, we saw peaceful protestors met with brute force. We saw cracked skulls and mass arrests, law enforcement pepper spraying its way through a peaceful demonstration for a presidential photo op.

And for those who call others unpatriotic for simply taking a knee in silent protest, for those who wonder why we need to be reminded that Black Lives Matter at all, yesterday made it painfully clear that certain Americans are, in fact, allowed to denigrate the flag and symbols of our nation.

They’ve just got to look the right way.

What do all those folks have to say now?

posted by Iris Gambol at 6:15 PM on January 7 [81 favorites]


I admired his stealth covid-19 test kit delivery back in May but then Hogan voted for Reagan two months ago, and had to tell us all about it.

Yeah about those test kits ...
posted by eagles123 at 6:17 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


This was posted already in a previous thread, but I recommend it as evidence that there were cops and security types on the scene who tried very hard to stop the mob.

The moment it all began
posted by philip-random at 6:17 PM on January 7 [31 favorites]


I believe the only reason the Cabinet members are resigning is so they can expand their options for their next career. They got however many years of the benefits of being in the Cabinet, but they still get to have "resigned as a principled act" on their resumes. How bold, how brave, to resign during your job's last pay period.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:18 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


Mostofsky can be seen in photographs standing next to a different man wearing furs and a horned hat, who has been identified as Jake Angeli, an Arizona QAnon supporter. It's unclear if the outfits are related.

Angeli is playing Indian and claims to be a shaman. What he wears is probably and amalgam of his "spirit animals" or "power animals" I won't go the colonialism and cultural appropriation behind the use of this term One reason why he wears these fetishes is that these spirits will protect him. It also implies that he holds the power of these animals. Lakota/Dakota people would call him "wasi'chu" which is their term for "cracker" They would also probably say that "dime store shaman" is too good of a term for him.

He's doing a pretty good job of branding

Along with others during the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol, Angeli entered the United States Senate floor in the Capitol. He was wearing his self-styled symbolic shamanic attire, including a buffalo-horned coyote skin headress and adapted Native American war paint in red, white, and blue. - Wikipedia

I cannot tell you how many people I have known involved in "alternative" modalities who have completely gone off the rails. Guys like this in Los Angeles are a dime a dozen. It's fascinating to see their con. Play off one's fear, naivete, or insecurity and promise to provide the answer with otherworldly powers
posted by goalyeehah at 6:19 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]


I mean, lots of non Trump supporters are racists too, America is saturated with racism like a sponge in a sink, it’s our founding ethos, it’s the air that we breathe, it’s so incredibly common and yet we insist on painting it as something exotic

It isn't even that; it's not that it's "exotic", it's that the average white American's understanding of "racism" is not "an organised system of oppression that's inherent in the very structures of our society" but the overtly hateful acts of individuals. Most white Americans can't recognise racism if it's not wearing a pointy white hood, burning a cross and waving a Confederate flag while shouting the N-word. And since people think racism is limited to such overt acts, racists are ipso facto Bad People. This is why to many white Americans it is a thing of greater enormity to call someone out as racist than it is to actually *be* a racist (and make no mistake, one of the fundamentals of Trumpism is white supremacy, and the Trumpist rejection of the election results is about denying the legitimacy of non-white votes).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:20 PM on January 7 [56 favorites]


Wall Street Journal editorial board calls on Trump to resign.

Or as the Guardian phrased it, "the editorial board of the rightwing Wall Street Journal, long a bastion of Donald Trump apologists, has called on the president to resign rather than face impeachment or a forced removed under the 25th Amendment."

I LOLed.
posted by yeahlikethat at 6:20 PM on January 7 [40 favorites]


> Every Trump supporter is a racist.

Wikipedia's chart of exit survey results show that 12% of Black voters (19% of Black men) and 32% of Latinx voters (36% of Latino men) voted for Trump in 2020.

Wikipedia also cites other polls which report 10% of Black voters, 27% of Latinx voters, and 28% of Asian-American and Pacific Islander voters voted for Trump. (Wikipedia also reports on the Native American vote but doesn't provide summary totals.)

Even though that's a pretty broad disagreement in exact numbers, they both show significant support for Trump among non-white demographics. Even if Trump does not carry majorities with any of them, these percentages still represent millions of voters and defy easy stereotypes of Trump voters as all being white and racist.
posted by at by at 6:21 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


I believe the only reason the Cabinet members are resigning is so they can expand their options for their next career. They got however many years of the benefits of being in the Cabinet, but they still get to have "resigned as a principled act" on their resumes. How bold, how brave, to resign during your job's last pay period.

Close to a 100% chance that the producers of "Dancing With The Stars" or some similar show have already reached out to at least one of them.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:22 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Even if Trump does not carry majorities with any of them, these percentages still represent millions of voters and defy easy stereotypes of Trump voters as all being white and racist.

You're aware that people can be black or latino or any other identity that isn't white and still be racists that buy into and support white supremacy, right? Just like women can be misogynists that support patriarchy?

People are complicated.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:26 PM on January 7 [105 favorites]


It's pretty well established that minorities can be prejudiced against their own group. They absorb racism, and the ideas of who is Supreme, from the world around them. So they vote for that world. Doesn't make Dumpster any less racist.

This is racism 101, btw.
posted by Dashy at 6:27 PM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Every cabinet member resigning now is doing so purely to flee the responsibility of a vote on the 25th. They have no other motivation.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:28 PM on January 7 [37 favorites]


It's so they can say they repudiated him when he finally "crossed the line" and try to repair their respectability.
posted by Sockdown at 6:30 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]




Well, Trump did just try to murder Elaine Chao's husband. How's that for some leopard face eating?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:31 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


But still hedging their bets by refusing to sign the 25th.

Profiles in cowardice, all of them.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:31 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


This was posted already in a previous thread, but I recommend it as evidence that there were cops and security types on the scene who tried very hard to stop the mob.

I like how on the far right they knock an officer over and 1 maybe 2 people who just knocked her over help her up to the steps. Like...what the hell did you think was going to happen.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:31 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


symbolic shamanic? symanic shabolic? hell, let's just call it "shambolic.'
posted by Floydd at 6:31 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


He seemed to like low class things at all his rallies. And during the WWE days.

Yes, I do get that he secretly was sneering at the yokels.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:32 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


these percentages still represent millions of voters and defy easy stereotypes of Trump voters as all being white and racist

There are lots of categories of hatred and self-hatred that Trump voters can fit into. Log Cabin Republicans will still trade their civil rights for tax cuts, for instance.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:32 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


Donald Trump was annoyed by the violent siege on the Capitol Wednesday — which left several dead — because it looked “low class,” according to his adviser. “He doesn’t like low class things.”

he served fucking McDonald's to White House guests
posted by mightygodking at 6:33 PM on January 7 [128 favorites]


I really don't think this should descend into a complex nuanced discussion about racism and anti-racism but I really do think people need to quit trying to tone police people when they are speaking out about racism and racist socio-political structures. Honestly it does not matter if you have a black friend so you are totes not a racist if you are supporting this President you are condoning racism. You might be doing it because you believe in smaller government, or lower my taxes or think of the babies but you have to accept that at the current time the Republican party and in particular Trump have adopted racism and appealing to racists as a central method of achieving their political goals. You can't just say "well I only support Trump on issues of a,b,c but not x,y,z" when x,y,z are central his politics. I don't care how noble and principled you think your motives for supporting a racist and a party that enabled him are but the ends do not justify the means and you should totally be prepared to get called out for it as a result.

There has been an expectation of polite gentility and don't call a racist a racist as a way of silencing people, many of whom are explicitly targeted by these structures on a daily basis. Hell it's still practiced by a lot of well meaning liberals because apparently hearts and minds can only be reached if you play nice with other people. Playing nice and not calling people out for the shit they say and do might help you from offending them but it certainly hasn't done much in terms of stamping out racism and indeed it seems like it just forced it into the corners to fester until it's broken out into the crazy destructive manner expressed yesterday. So by all means if you don't want to call out your friends or relatives over their support of Trump because it's better to go along to get along then fine but you also need to accept that doing so is you being a small part of the problem.
posted by vuron at 6:34 PM on January 7 [44 favorites]


The Trump supporters that aren't racists voted for him because they were conned by a conman.
posted by wondermouse at 6:35 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


Well, they tried to get gold-plated murderbots for the siege, but it wasn't in the budget. So they had to settle for the cast of Warriors of the Lost World.
posted by valkane at 6:35 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


John Barron calling in again.
posted by Dashy at 6:36 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]



The Trump supporters that aren't racists voted for him because they were conned by a conman.

some of them. Others are just cradle to grave fiscal conservatives who are always going to vote for the guy that they think will tax them the least.
posted by philip-random at 6:37 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]



You're aware that people can be black or latino or any other identity that isn't white and still be racists that buy into and support white supremacy, right?


True -- I walked over to get photographs, and I saw a Black woman who was fist-pumping and backslapping with rioters. And that is just one person I was able to see clearly.

It's pretty well established that minorities can be prejudiced against their own group.

That's for sure. I saw it up close and personal when I worked for the D.C. government in the late 80s. It really threw my naive idealistic self.
posted by jgirl at 6:38 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


They got however many years of the benefits of being in the Cabinet, but they still get to have "resigned as a principled act" on their resumes

*Could* be, I suppose, but I don't really buy that theory. All of these people are high-profile enough that nobody reads resumes. Everyone interested in hiring them knows exactly who they are. I think they're just terrified of what they'll be asked to help with, what actual crimes they'll be asked to commit in the next 2 desperate weeks, and you know Trump will not be arranging any legal cover for them. For one, there isn't time to plan anything out correctly, plus they know Trump doesn't give a shit about them anyway. There's literally no upside to staying but considerable risk of prison.
posted by ctmf at 6:38 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


It's been established that Trump loves fast food because it's "clean". He's convinced that places like McDonald's have to have high food safety because it would destroy their business otherwise.
posted by SansPoint at 6:38 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Another man was seen smoking weed in a room with photos of mountains and maps of Oregon — as Merkley’s office does.

Cannabis legalization advocates take note: This may be the first recorded instance of the act of consumption of marijuana in the U.S. Capitol building. No doubt, the evil weed has been consumed unofficially many times within these sacred halls, perhaps by a page or staffer enjoying an after hours toke in secrecy. But here we are, at the start of 2021, with an actual record of the event entered into history.

Making matters even stranger, the agent of this action isn't a run-of-the-mill hippie scofflaw, but a right-winger, and a far-right-winger at that. The member of a party which, in many states to this day, refuses to legalize cannabis sales or consumption out of feigned anxiety over the "gateway effect" of weed. History marches onward and upward (or, perhaps, sideways).
posted by Gordion Knott at 6:38 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


Exit polls aren't reliable.

excerpt of Rep. Scott Peters commentary on U.S. Capitol riot, ‘The presidency is not a job for a feckless reality TV narcissist’ (San Diego Tribune, Jan. 6, 2021): Because I was in lockdown, I’ve missed and still haven’t caught up with all that’s happened. I don’t know how Capitol Police and intelligence agencies could possibly have been so unprepared, given the Proud Boy violence of the last weeks and their focus on Wednesday’s proceedings. I now know people in clownish, wannabe warrior costumes paraded around the Speaker’s Office and propped their feet up on the chairs of the presiding officers of the People’s House — your House. They mocked the greatest institution in the greatest nation in the world. [...]

I later learned that someone was killed. Later, still, I learned that she was from San Diego and from the district I represent.


Peters is my rep. Ashli Babbitt was my neighbor.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:38 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]



I hope he goes to Camp David. It's pretty close to Gettysburg where we stopped them last time.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 6:38 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


some of them. Others are just cradle to grave fiscal conservatives who are always going to vote for the guy that they think will tax them the least.

I don't call those people Trump supporters. Those are just people who will vote for whoever the Republican is.
posted by wondermouse at 6:39 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


The Trump supporters that aren't racists voted for him because they were conned by a conman.

Because of the unmistakable, transparent, blindingly obvious racism of Donald Trump, there are only two kinds of Trump supporters: racists and people OK with unmistakable, transparent, blindingly obvious racism.

I defy anyone to demonstrate to me the difference between these groups.
posted by tclark at 6:40 PM on January 7 [80 favorites]


It's been established that Trump loves fast food because it's "clean".

AIUI, he's long been afraid of being poisoned and figures there's less chance of it with fast food.
posted by jgirl at 6:40 PM on January 7


I defy anyone to demonstrate to me the difference between these groups.

You have to check their shoes.
posted by Sockdown at 6:40 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]




Making matters even stranger, the agent of this action isn't a run-of-the-mill hippie scofflaw, but a right-winger, and a far-right-winger at that. The member of a party which, in many states to this day, refuses to legalize cannabis sales or consumption out of feigned anxiety over the "gateway effect" of weed. History marches onward and upward (or, perhaps, sideways).

Boehner has likely made a lot of money off of marijuana legalization. His position "evolved" after leaving federal gov't. Make of that what you will.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:41 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Trump doing low-class things like getting beaten up by a WWE wrestler is all about branding. His whole public life has literally been built around a maxim of there is no such thing as bad publicity. He'd be willing to do all sorts of things that he'd never be willing to do privately as long as he'd got a camera on him and it will generate news coverage. He'll pretend that he's okay with it on screen because that's sort of the price to pay but you can guarantee that off screen he's going to be taking it out on some aide if he had to embarrass himself to assist in his branding exercise. As he's gotten older he's also seemingly less and less willing to adopt the public buffoon role although it's clear now that it's a role he's perfect for.
posted by vuron at 6:42 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


[Yo, we're not going to have semantic arguments over the meaning of "coup" and we're not going to spend tons of thread-space debating whether or not you can call someone non-racist if they voted Trump. It's not illuminating anything and nobody's going to argue the English language into submission and good behavior as a result.]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 6:43 PM on January 7 [56 favorites]


Honestly you all can have this discussion if you think it will be productive. I respect that. But for myself I no longer have any interest in trying to understand why somebody would vote for Trump, not just once, but twice. Whatever internal calculation those people had to make in order to do that is completely irrelevant to me - I only hold them responsible for what is the hell scape of my country.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:44 PM on January 7 [32 favorites]


It's been established that Trump loves fast food because it's "clean". He's convinced that places like McDonald's have to have high food safety because it would destroy their business otherwise.
posted by SansPoint at 6:38 PM on January 7 [+] [!]


Spoken like someone who's never worked a fast food job in his life.
posted by gtrwolf at 6:44 PM on January 7 [38 favorites]


I still think that if Trump were remotely competent at this point he'd resign in order to have Pence pardon him since the concept of the President being able to self-pardon is definitely untested water. However he's so inherently distrustful and egomaniacal that he's probably thinking Pence would renege on the deal or he just can't stomach the thought of giving up any power voluntarily.

Within the last 72 hours Trump has told a crowd he fully expected Pence would do his bidding in overturning an election they lost (and added that if Pence didn’t, he’d like him a lot less, wink wink), then when Pence elected to obey the rule of law and not the president*, Trump sent thousands of angry supporters to attack the building where Pence and his family were.

Pence may not be in a pardonin’ mood is I guess what I am saying.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:47 PM on January 7 [21 favorites]


Astead Herndon: concede or lose the ability to post? i'll take concede (1h ago)

Thinking about the mechanics of coups, there's often that critical moment when the leader needs to broadcast the message "this is go time" to his followers and "power has been seized, there's nothing you can do about it" to everybody else. Seize the TV station in the capital, that sort of thing.

I wonder if Twitter's feeble, late, temporary suspension came at just the right time. Since Trump has always been able to get his word out, he had never had to develop an alternate means of broadcasting his message. Never had to think about seizing the TV station. So, at the critical moment, he was left staring at an "account suspended" message on his phone.

This idea is based on no facts and is probably wrong.
posted by clawsoon at 6:49 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


Pence does what he's told. If he's no longer listening to Trump, then it's Mitch.
posted by Sockdown at 6:49 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Pence does what he's told. If he's no longer listening to Trump, then it's Mitch.

Don't you mean: if he's no longer listening to Trump, then it's Mother.
posted by deadaluspark at 6:50 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Not to abuse the edit window: I guess not everyone is as spineless weak-willed forgiving as Cruz and Rubio.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:50 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Wrong house, I think. Representatives are supposed to represent what their constituents want them to do.

Cori Bush pretty much ran on being an activist, and won. So I think this is exactly the sort of thing her constituents want her to do.
posted by Foosnark at 6:52 PM on January 7 [16 favorites]


MetaFilter: This idea is based on no facts and is probably wrong.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:53 PM on January 7 [33 favorites]


Speaking as a veteran, since he's on the pension, he's still UCMJ. And that's treason. Military punishment for that is death

Speaking as a retired veteran, I agree that the Uniform Code of Military Justice holds right of first - though not only - trial/court-martial.

I think his defense will probably be that he was ordered by the goddamn President of the United States to take the fucking capitol. However, it is worth noting that military oaths are sworn first to the Constitution and only second to the President, and the Constitution is pretty clear about what you are supposed to do in this fucking situation.
posted by corb at 6:53 PM on January 7 [55 favorites]


I might be misremembering, but: Doesn’t the Constitution create two possible penalties for impeachment, removal and a ban on future office?

The Constitution doesn't specify the ban on future office but the way it works is first you must convict on impeachment by a super-majority of two-thirds. Then they have a second vote on the ban for future office that only requires a majority vote. But you have to do the conviction first, so not so easy.

However, getting a ban on office would be worth it and severely cramp Trump's future grift. He would not be able to legally operate his re-election campaign which would severely restrict his personal fundraising scam.
posted by JackFlash at 6:54 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Palate-cleansing Twitter smackdown: Xena lets Hercules know what's what.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:55 PM on January 7 [61 favorites]


Sorbo and Baio should get together and film a direct to video movie about the "patriots" trying to stop the steal or is this too toxic for even the Z-list bottom feeders to attach themselves to at this point.
posted by vuron at 6:59 PM on January 7


So I think this is exactly the sort of thing her constituents want her to do.

Totally agree. I think she's going to have trouble getting votes to expel representatives for representing, though. That's what they're supposed to do.

Yes, I know they fanned all the conspiracy theories in the first place to get their constituents all riled up for the thing they wanted. Still, it sounds insane unless you make it about all that prior MIS-representation of reality and not the actual act of voting the way the voters wanted.
posted by ctmf at 6:59 PM on January 7




All Trump's cabinet titles come with a silent 'Sabotaging' in the name. Betsy made a good effort as Secretary of (Sabotaging) Education.
posted by ctmf at 7:03 PM on January 7 [46 favorites]


Representatives are supposed to represent what their constituents want them to do ...
Senators, on the other hand, are supposed to be the conscience, the adults in the room.


That is some mythical bullshit right there. All representatives should be expected to vote their conscience for what is right. The notion that representatives are always supposed to vote what their constituents want is horrible justification for a century of violent Jim Crow laws, anti-abortion laws and anti-gay bigotry. No you don't just do what your "constituents" want because your constituents are more than just the majority people who voted for you.
posted by JackFlash at 7:03 PM on January 7 [38 favorites]




> In addition to supporting the impeachment and removal of Donald Trump, I am also preparing legislation that would prohibit any federal building or property from being named after President Donald J. Trump.

I rise to offer an amendment to the gentleman's bill exempting federal prisons.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:08 PM on January 7 [43 favorites]


The new euphemism would be serving time in the Trump Hotel.
posted by JackFlash at 7:10 PM on January 7 [28 favorites]


Don’t forget sewage treatment facilities
posted by nickmark at 7:11 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Are there federally owned garbage barges?
posted by peppermind at 7:11 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


“He’s doing 20 to life at Trump Tower”
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:12 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


Honestly it would be amazing if at some point in time Trump spends some time in an orange jumpsuit alongside some of these q-anon seditionists. After all didn't his executive order declare that people should get 10 year sentences for rioters doing damage to federal building?
posted by vuron at 7:12 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]


Orange is the new orange.
posted by Crane Shot at 7:14 PM on January 7 [24 favorites]


"No, sir. The closest vessel is the U.S.S. Walter Mondale Donald J. Trump. It's a laundry ship. They'll take you the rest of the way."
posted by SansPoint at 7:14 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


the consortium of presidential historians have down voted the Johnson Administration.

10. On numerous occasions, made "with a loud voice, certain intemperate, inflammatory, and scandalous harangues, and did therein utter loud threats and bitter menaces ... against Congress [and] the laws of the United States duly enacted thereby, amid the cries, jeers and laughter of the multitudes then assembled and within bearing"; and...
Approved by the House, yeas 88, nays 44.

-Johnson impeachment. Article X.
posted by clavdivs at 7:16 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


There’s a Roosevelt Regional Landfill, so I see no reason there shouldn’t be a Trump Dump
posted by oulipian at 7:17 PM on January 7 [17 favorites]




Don't you mean: if he's no longer listening to Trump, then it's Mother.

Look, they're not as gross as, say, just about everything about Mike Pence and his career, but the "mother" jokes are still really gross, and I wish people would knock it off.
posted by biogeo at 7:19 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]


Former Defense Secretary Mattis says Trump 'fomented' the security breach at the US Capitol
“Today’s violent assault on our Capitol, an effort to subjugate American democracy by mob rule, was fomented by Mr. Trump,” said Mattis, who served as Trump’s first secretary of defense, in a statement provided to ABC News.

“His use of the Presidency to destroy trust in our election and to poison our respect for fellow citizens has been enabled by pseudo political leaders whose names will live in infamy as profiles in cowardice,” he added. “Our Constitution and our Republic will overcome this stain and We the People will come together again in our never-ending effort to form a more perfect Union, while Mr. Trump will deservedly be left a man without a country.”
There's a burn in there that I don't think Trump is capable of understanding, which I...have so many mixed feelings about. Like, it's a deserved sick burn, but only if you care about the country and its people, which it is so clear that Trump does not even kind of a tiny bit. And these statements are powerful and we should damn Trump's memory, but also - how else can we protect against these people who just don't care about others at all?
posted by corb at 7:19 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Related to low-information voters:

Even With 190,000 Dead, There’s a Lot That Voters Don’t Know (NYT)
People often engage in “projection,” assuming a preferred candidate shares their view, even on a key issue like masks during a pandemic.

So people decided to support Trump, told themselves that whatever they personally believed in, Trump also believes in (regardless of all the evidence to the contrary), and then stopped paying attention. In other words, many voters don't know the policies of their chosen candidate.

We can't reach these people using logic or reason.
posted by meowzilla at 7:26 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


I'm fine with putting him out to sea, though
posted by schadenfrau at 7:26 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


the "mother" jokes are still really gross, and I wish people would knock it off.

Yeah, I know it can sound weird to people, but it's really a rural/urban thing at some level (people around here say it, it sounds a little odd to me but it's basically normal for older farmer types) and it would be nice if people could pick on other stuff that doesn't feel/sound a little like classist punching down.
posted by jessamyn at 7:26 PM on January 7 [34 favorites]




Yeah, I know it can sound weird to people, but it's really a rural/urban thing at some level (people around here say it, it sounds a little odd to me but it's basically normal for older farmer types)

I grew up with older Yankee farmer types, and I can confirm!
posted by jgirl at 7:38 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I've seen that video, I think. It shows the front of the crowd smashing out the windows of some internal doors, and then Babbit climbing through the windows (which are on the upper half of the door). As she's halfway through, perched in the windowframe, she suddenly falls backward. You can see the gun of the person who shot her, and the muzzle flash. You can't see if it's Capitol Police or Secret Service; it's been earlier reported that Capitol Police are the ones who fired once, hitting her in the next/upper chest.
posted by fatbird at 7:40 PM on January 7


> It's pretty well established that minorities can be prejudiced against their own group.

See also comedian George Lopez “don’t marry somebody Black”... and having a Black audience member who showed the slightest skepticism of “comedy” like that ejected. (Evidently he's also trying to “tap out” of some aspects of being awful for the post-Trump era, according to that article?)

>> the "mother" jokes are still really gross, and I wish people would knock it off.

> Yeah, I know it can sound weird to people, but it's really a rural/urban thing at some level (people around here say it, it sounds a little odd to me but it's basically normal for older farmer types) and it would be nice if people could pick on other stuff that doesn't feel/sound a little like classist punching down.

Also Japanese, I learned here at MeFi.
posted by XMLicious at 7:41 PM on January 7


The “mother” jokes are poking fun at Pence’s appalling inability to see women, including his wife, as full people aside from their sexual characteristics and reproductive capability. He’s not a rural farmer, he’s a powerful misogynist and I don’t know in what reality making jokes at the expense of the sitting Vice President of the United States could be considered “punching down.”
posted by jeoc at 7:43 PM on January 7 [131 favorites]


Pence is first in the line of succession and you had the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate who are 2 and 3 also in attendance. So presumably any clear and present danger to the VP was definitely going to be treated with a great deal of seriousness. Hopefully in the meantime additional level of protection is placed on key government figures even though the Speaker and the President pro tempore don't receive secret service protection details to my knowledge.
posted by vuron at 7:45 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Yeah, mother is about Pence's misogyny not his class markers. This is a perfect example of how the right avoids criticism of their unpopular social agenda by cloaking it in old-timey, psuedotraditionalist garb.
posted by flamk at 7:47 PM on January 7 [45 favorites]


Removing Trump via impeachment or the 25th amendment would require large numbers of Republican officials to choose country over party. If the last four years have taught us anything, it’s that Republicans are not going to save us.

The only way Trump is leaving office early is by resigning, and the only reason he would do that is if he’s offered a Nixon-style deal (including a full and free pardon) that makes it personally advantageous to him.

That said, the House of Representatives should impeach Trump again, because it’s the right thing to do. But not because anyone expects Republican senators to do the right thing in turn, and bar him from office.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:51 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


We've had the "mother" conversation on Metafilter before and I don't think it's worth rehashing. I understand the intent behind what people think they're criticizing, but it's a perfectly normal speech pattern for a certain subculture/generation, and within that context it does not have the meaning that people here want to force on it. If you want to criticize Pence for his misogyny, just say that. Otherwise you're othering a whole group people for something that is a normal part of their culture, who may not be willing to speak up for themselves for fear of getting attacked as misogynists themselves.

I've said my piece and I won't pursue it further. If you didn't know that this is normal for some people, now you know, do what you will with that information.
posted by biogeo at 7:54 PM on January 7 [36 favorites]


But not because anyone expects Republican senators to do the right thing and bar him from office.

It's in McConnell's interests to ensure that Trump can't run in 2024, and McConnell always does what's in McConnell's interests. Whether he would take that option or could rustle up enough votes to make it happen is an open question, and I'd lean towards no, but it is an angle.
posted by COD at 7:55 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]




Pence is first in the line of succession and you had the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate who are 2 and 3 also in attendance. So presumably any clear and present danger to the VP was definitely going to be treated with a great deal of seriousness. Hopefully in the meantime additional level of protection is placed on key government figures even though the Speaker and the President pro tempore don't receive secret service protection details to my knowledge.

VP-elect Harris was there and she definitely has Secret Service protection.
posted by JackFlash at 7:56 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


(people around here say it, it sounds a little odd to me but it's basically normal for older farmer types)

I heard it among my relatives in the Old Country, and sometimes even my old man when he reverted back from English. The husbands called the wives 'mother' because that's what the kids called them. There was a common name in the house. I didn't read anything into it more than that.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:56 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


"@JoaquinCastrotx
In addition to supporting the impeachment and removal of Donald Trump, I am also preparing legislation that would prohibit any federal building or property from being named after President Donald J. Trump."


He shouldn't get a Presidential Library either. Everything should be turned over as evidence.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 7:57 PM on January 7 [14 favorites]


the Speaker and the President pro tempore don't receive secret service protection details to my knowledge.

They have a protective detail from the U.S. Capitol Police, not from the Secret Service.
posted by jgirl at 8:00 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


The thing with the “mother” bit is, as jessamyn says it's using the class marker as a vehicle for the criticism of misogyny, so there's rather extensive collateral damage.

It's like if you equated a Southern US accent in English with racism—for one thing US racism is hardly a Southern-only phenomenon, but even if you could come up with some Rube Goldberg machine rationalization that's it's a justified criticism of Southern whites via structural racism, sins of the father, etc., there are all kinds of PoC who also live in the South and have Southern accents through no volition of their own either. Frex the Delta Chinese.
posted by XMLicious at 8:04 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


@SenWarren
Betsy DeVos has never done her job to help America’s students. It doesn’t surprise me one bit that she’d rather quit than do her job to help invoke the 25th Amendment.
Good riddance, Betsy. You were the worst Secretary of Education ever.


May "Good riddance, Betsy." become the "bye, Felicia!" of the downfall of this garbage administration.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:05 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


It was Aunt Tifa all along!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:05 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


As long as we're talking about misogyny, referring to adult women as "Mother" rather than, say, their actual name, is perhaps something we don't want to be defending, no matter who's doing it or where they come from. That usage is actually way worse than mocking one of the most powerful men on the planet for referring to his adult wife, who actually has professional accomplishments other than bearing children, as "Mother." It's reductive and gross.
posted by holborne at 8:07 PM on January 7 [36 favorites]


Can we drop the mother thing?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:09 PM on January 7 [48 favorites]


Pence won't invoke the 25th, and neither will the Cabinet; they are Republicans and will not piss off other Republicans. But if the 25th was invoked, I'd be very surprised if it didn't include a pardon for Trump and his horrid family. So, Impeachment, then.
posted by theora55 at 8:09 PM on January 7 [3 favorites]


Ironically, the officer shooting the woman may have been the only person to tell her the truth that day: if you come in here, I will shoot you.
posted by meowzilla at 8:13 PM on January 7 [36 favorites]




"Court records noted that he “became emotional” after he was approached by officers."

Experiencing consequences for your actions for the first time can be an emotional experience.
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 8:21 PM on January 7 [47 favorites]


Josh Hawley: "I'm your guy!"

Looks like Tom Cotton made the right move.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:24 PM on January 7


Who had Xena Takes Down Hercules on their insurrection bingo card?
posted by angeline at 8:29 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


The Secret Service would like you to know that they are running the show for the Inauguration, and they have "been working tirelessly to anticipate and prepare for all possible contingencies at every level".

That's as close as you're going to get to a Federal agency saying "fuck around and find out".
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:39 PM on January 7 [70 favorites]


Who had Xena Takes Down Hercules on their insurrection bingo card?

Anyone who's ever watched both of them act.
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:39 PM on January 7 [43 favorites]


Donald Trump was annoyed by the violent siege on the Capitol Wednesday — which left several dead — because it looked “low class,” according to his adviser. “He doesn’t like low class things.”

Louis Napoleon signed up to put down the Chartists. Perhaps he was hoping for that.
posted by clawsoon at 8:41 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


I also don’t believe every Trump supporter is racist.

I haven't met a Trump supporter who isn't.

And I'm not assuming that they're racist just because they support Trump. It's because if you ask them what they think about an issue related to racism, they'll give you their racist interpretation of it. Neighborhood sids are causing trouble? It's because "those people" don't train their kids right. Tenants behind on rent? It's because "those people" spend all their money on weed.

Oh, they'll tell you "white trash" exists too, but here's the difference: They don't think all white people are trash. And they'll complain about some white people getting more than they think they deserve, too, but here's the difference there: It's never because they're white. They think only Black people get special advantages because of their race.

Basically, I've yet to meet a Trump supporter whose political views aren't motivated in large part by racial resentment. There's a reason so many of the rioters at the Capitol were explicit white supremacists. Not all Trump supporters are that explicit, and some deeply in denial, of course - but Trumpism is about racial resentment. You could probably debate for ages about what comes first, the fascism or the racism, because it's a sort of chicken-and-egg scenario, but either way they're rascist.

You would basically have to know nothing about Trump's ctions in order to both support him and not be a racist. Like, he campaigned on the demonization of Muslims and non-white (especially Latine) immigrants. He spent the entire summer demonizing BLM. If you're fired up about Trump you know that.

And I am sick of excuses for them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:41 PM on January 7 [117 favorites]


Just putting this here as a slightly off-topic reminder:

WE FLIPPED GEORGIA!!!!

I mean, yeah they tried a coup in Washington, but have you seen Kemp? Georgia has been an ongoing fascist anti-democratic coup (small d) for like... how long with the voter suppression stuff? Jim Crow? What Stacey Abrams, Mejente, and everybody else in Georgia did shows that we can beat the fascists. There is a cost, and it's exhausting, and it sucks, but the thing that happened in Washington goes on all over the country all the time to a greater or lesser degree, and the fascists just as often lose.

We un-elected Trump because he is horrible, but that's not what the Georgia runoff was. Georgia was bottom-up organizing and change and spreading the franchise as far as humanly possible under the circumstances.

Don't lose hope. Don't you f**kin do it. We got Stacey Abrams and everybody she mobilized, and like...we actually won this round, in a historic way, and I don't just mean the ethnicity of those elected. Georgia permanently shifted left, and there's a successful blueprint for engagement and party-building that we can and will pick up and use again. As much as there is a Trumpist rump movement in the future, there are also a LOT of pissed off Democrats and leftists who are just getting started. Savor that. Do not forget to savor that.
posted by saysthis at 8:42 PM on January 7 [175 favorites]


Others are just cradle to grave fiscal conservatives who are always going to vote for the guy that they think will tax them the least.

The context of this comment implied that you think this has nothing to do with racism? I know the mods want us to drop this, so I won't go into any long explanation of the connections. But it certainly isn't a rational position from an accounting perspective for the vast majority of Americans, who stand to get far more value from government services than they pay in taxes.
posted by eviemath at 8:44 PM on January 7 [28 favorites]


He shouldn't get a Presidential Library either. Everything should be turned over as evidence.

Presidential records become official property of the National Archives on January 20. Presidential Libraries are typically built with private funds, but that does not mean the records go into private hands. The "official transition" of the records to the National Archives is a specific legacy of post-Watergate records shenanigans on the part of Nixon with the passage of the Presidential Records Act.
posted by mostly vowels at 8:52 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


He shouldn't get a Presidential Library either. Everything should be turned over as evidence.

I think he should have a library that is also his prison, and he must read books and write book reports and eat bland food, alone, for a thousand years. No visitors.
posted by vrakatar at 8:54 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Repeating my link from earlier, the FBI has opened a page for tips if you have any information about individuals involved in yesterday's action.

Dear FBI,

It was Trump.

Sincerely,
Everyone with a brain.
posted by adept256 at 8:55 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


No visitors.

... and no Internet access. Ever.
posted by vers at 8:56 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


Uploading for @DGisSERIOUS . This is appalling.
"This video of AP photographer @johnminchillo at the protest yesterday is insane. He was dragged out and nearly lynched. This should be seen by everyone. @pressfreedom " pic.twitter.com/2C8puAL2GH— Guns, Ganders, and Goats (@MENA_Conflict) January 8, 2021

posted by nestor_makhno at 8:57 PM on January 7 [54 favorites]


Donald Trump was annoyed by the violent siege on the Capitol Wednesday — which left several dead — because it looked “low class,” according to his adviser. “He doesn’t like low class things.”

I can't think of anything on this earth with less "class" than Donald J. Trump.
posted by valkane at 9:00 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


Josh Hawley is whining that losing his contract with a book publishing corporation is a violation of his First Amendment rights.

The guy went to Yale Law. The school should be suing him for defamation of their reputation.
posted by JackFlash at 9:00 PM on January 7 [47 favorites]


Lawfare has started compiling a database of criminal charges filed in relation to the riots from yesterday.
posted by herda05 at 9:05 PM on January 7 [34 favorites]


Good riddance, Betsy. You were the worst Secretary of Education ever.

Scramway back to Scamway.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:06 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


The USCP officer was apparently removed from life support and has now died. He was assaulted by the mob and collapsed shortly afterwards -- I'm assuming probably from a brain bleed.

So yeah, that'd be murder (and I'm assuming probably felony murder given it was in the commission of another crime) and a whole lot of accomplices.
posted by tavella at 9:08 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


Josh Hawley is whining that losing his contract with a book publishing corporation is a violation of his First Amendment rights.

But I thought he liked it when the market speaks.
posted by holborne at 9:08 PM on January 7 [43 favorites]


Serious question, was the character of Jonah Ryan on Veep based on Josh Hawley? I know the timeline doesn't work but still...
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 9:13 PM on January 7


"Full statement from the American Federation of Teachers on the resignation of Betsy DeVos: "Good riddance." -- Kyle Griffin

this is not a joke.
posted by valkane at 9:16 PM on January 7 [79 favorites]


He shouldn't get a Presidential Library either

It's probably not my idea originally but I think his should be a Little Free Library.
posted by Rash at 9:16 PM on January 7 [11 favorites]


I am so upset and freaked out right now. I just had a talk with a very long time dear friend, who is a serious Buddhist practitioner. She saw Trump's final public words on Insurrection Day, where he ended by saying that he loved all of his people, and she used that as a reason to say that we, too, should find ways to communicate that love towards his people if we hope to win them over. I am beside myself with anger and sadness and grief that someone as kind and good spirited and intelligent as she is has been so snowed by what is going on.
posted by PhineasGage at 9:19 PM on January 7 [30 favorites]


PSA: As satisfying as it is to see the internet hive mind identify and ruin the scofflaws, it's important to keep in mind that mob justice can be just as misguided online as in IRL. Case in point: an imposing white guy who got photographed attacking a black woman at an LA Trump protest. It later came out that per the victim's statement he was actually a good Samaritan who was rescuing her from the attackers... but not before he was doxxed, smeared widely online, and fired from his job. So maybe avoid signal boosting posts targeting people for comeuppance unless it's unambiguously clear who they are and what they're doing.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:32 PM on January 7 [80 favorites]


Hoping to "win" people over doesn't sound like love to me. Love to me means letting people follow their own path and letting them own the consequences, good or bad, of their actions. We can have compassion for their suffering but we let them stay on their path while holding fast to our own.
posted by flamk at 9:37 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


phineasgage, could your friend have meant something like, communicating the love that Trump's supporters feel coming from Trump? It's a fact that his supporters think he's amazing, that he's one of them, that he understands them, and so on. I think it's perfectly reasonable and compassionate to say that we could not hope to win these people back to sanity without some substitute for that sense of validation.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:39 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


PhineasGage: everyone deserves our love and understanding. But sometimes if you love someone, you have to set boundaries for their own good and the good of everyone around them. Coming from a place of love all the time is a wonderful thing, I would say to your friend, but in loving all the people around me, I need to protect those who are likely to be harmed from harmful people, even if I love the harmful people too. If your friend wants to try loving outreach, good for her, maybe she needs to think about who needs the love she has the most right now.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:39 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Not only did Trump launch a terrorist attack with intent to hurt and kill legislators, it appears that state secrets may have been stolen, and perpetrators knew where to go. More data for Russia, it seems.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:40 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


I strongly urge everyone for whom it will not be triggering watch the video posted by nestor_makhno above, and as ever, prepare for tough times ahead.
posted by corb at 9:40 PM on January 7 [14 favorites]


Case in point: an imposing white guy who got photographed attacking a black woman at an LA Trump protest. It later came out that per the victim's statement he was actually a good Samaritan who was rescuing her from the attackers

As another example of how unreliable it can be relying on disconnected social media posts to make judgments, here's a thread revealing that the guy in question was actually fired for unrelated reasons over a week ago... along with multiple videos implicating him in the same aggro protest he later rescued the woman from. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Rhaomi at 9:52 PM on January 7 [18 favorites]


So yeah, that'd be murder (and I'm assuming probably felony murder given it was in the commission of another crime) and a whole lot of accomplices.

So the DC federal prosecutor says he is not ruling out federal charges against Trump for inciting a riot. Doesn't that then put him on the hook for the felony murder?

Never going to happen, but still.
posted by JackFlash at 9:54 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]




Historian: White Terrorist Groups Attacked Democracy During Reconstruction, They Are Doing It Again.
As Washington reels from the storming of the U.S. Capitol by a pro-Trump mob intent on overturning the 2020 election results, lawmakers are considering new impeachment proceedings against President Trump for fomenting the insurrection. Civil War and Reconstruction historian Manisha Sinha says this isn’t the first attempt to disrupt the democratic process by right-wing white domestic terrorists, citing the 1898 Wilmington coup and other efforts before that throughout the Southern states. “These groups today remind me of those people,” says Sinha. In response to the call to invoke the 25th Amendment against Donald Trump, she argues, “This is an awful portent for our democracy, and we need to respond forcefully to it.”
posted by homunculus at 10:05 PM on January 7 [21 favorites]


Serious question, was the character of Jonah Ryan on Veep based on Josh Hawley? I know the timeline doesn't work but still...

Timothy Simons has said, straight up, that his performance of Jonah is based on Ted Cruz and many people's personal descriptions of interacting with Ted Cruz.
posted by mightygodking at 10:08 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


The thing with the “mother” bit is, as jessamyn says it's using the class marker as a vehicle for the criticism of misogyny, so there's rather extensive collateral damage.

I think it's highly unlikely that anybody I know who has made fun of this knows that it's a class marker, or A Thing. I've been educated on that, today, I'm just saying keep in mind that the reason people don't think about the associations of this may be that they've never heard of anyone else saying it.
posted by atoxyl at 10:12 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Oh just make fun of his hair and be done with it. He's fucking Race Bannon.
posted by valkane at 10:15 PM on January 7 [8 favorites]


I've associated it with cultural conservatism in general and was not aware of the class associations.
posted by brundlefly at 10:16 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


How dare you insult Race Bannon like that!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:17 PM on January 7 [15 favorites]


man wearing furs and a horned hat, who has been identified as Jake Angeli, an Arizona QAnon supporter.

bingo!

Now I know why he seemed so familiar. Hiding in plain sight in my record collection since at least 1975.
posted by philip-random at 10:19 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has condemned newly seated Rep. Mary Miller (R-Ill.) for saying earlier this week that Adolf Hitler was "right" about the value of influencing a nation's youth.

Appearing at a Tuesday rally on Capitol Hill calling for the 2020 presidential election to be overturned, Miller said, "Hitler was right on one thing, that whoever has the youth has the future. Our children are being propagandized."


The white supremacy is coming from inside the House.
posted by euphorb at 10:22 PM on January 7 [10 favorites]


Steve King goes away, and Mary Miller takes his place.
posted by tclark at 10:24 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


Pretty sure she thinks Hitler was right about at least one other thing.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:25 PM on January 7 [14 favorites]


And I hate Illinois nazis.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:25 PM on January 7 [49 favorites]


In an extraordinary bit of seat-of-the-pants journalism, Bellingcat traces Ashli Babbitt's journey from enthusiastic Obama voter to right-wing martyr after being shot while refusing orders to stop from a federal security agent with a gun pointed at her face, by reading her Twitter messages.

"As Babbitt lay dying on the floor, her fellow members of the crowd pulled out their phones and began to film, illuminating her body with the lights of their devices. Babbitt passed away soon after."
posted by Andrew Galarneau at 10:27 PM on January 7 [39 favorites]


i_am_joe's_spleen, I struggle all the time to remember that love—and damned if I can remember who said it—is not a starvation economy. You don't save up extra love for someone by withholding it from someone else.

My awareness of that just sharpens my frustration that I'm not as good a buddhist as PhineasGage's friend. Which in itself is silly—letting go of desire is not a competition sport.

Surely Zen can find sudden enlightenment in a flash of righteous indignation..? Please?
posted by maniabug at 10:30 PM on January 7 [6 favorites]


PhineasGage, I am sorry to hear about your experience.

I want to write more but do not want to derail. I have found over time that my spiritual friends, when push came to shove, bailed on me in times of need. The devotion to their religion/belief trumped their ability to be human. It became very clear when I was on the street as I attempted to frame my situation from a Hindu perspective. It became very clear. Where I am is not because of "my karma" I am not going to "lean into the pain" or "use this as a teaching moment" I am hurting. i am scared. I want help.

I am not surprised that some who follows a tradition that is also a sophisticated authoritarian structure would bypass the pain and anger you feel to protect her dogma
posted by goalyeehah at 10:36 PM on January 7 [26 favorites]


Donald Trump was annoyed by the violent siege on the Capitol Wednesday — which left several dead — because it looked “low class,”

They physically attack his 'enemies', several die in the effort, and still he whines.
posted by StarkRoads at 10:38 PM on January 7 [12 favorites]


So the Trumpists want people to believe that the insurrectionists were actually Antifa or perhaps that the mob was infiltrated by Antifa provocateurs. Let's see which members of the mob got arrested:

Yet another, who needed a Russian interpreter, told a judge, “I don’t know what unlawful entry you are referring to.“

They're probably from the Moscow branch of Antifa.
posted by rdr at 10:45 PM on January 7 [28 favorites]


And Buddhism, Hinduism and other eastern traditions attract kind-hearted and intelligent people because of their sophistication. It is still dogma, nonetheless.
posted by goalyeehah at 10:48 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]




In an extraordinary bit of seat-of-the-pants journalism, Bellingcat traces Ashli Babbitt's journey from enthusiastic Obama voter to right-wing martyr after being shot while refusing orders to stop from a federal security agent with a gun pointed at her face, by reading her Twitter messages.

That article is something else. Also, it makes me think that at some point in the future, we are going to get a better idea of just how many people became radicalized and lost grips with reality during the pandemic; as they sat at home with nothing to do, and a whole big internet in front of them, ready to fill their head with tantalizing conspiracy stories and lies. I feel like I've now read about this happening enough times that I think it's a real, and pretty major, thing.
posted by triggerfinger at 10:57 PM on January 7 [22 favorites]


If people want to understand why Trump's followers (and the right in general) is so insistent that they are not breaking the law, while they raise an insurrection, I highly recommend Christian G. Fritz's book American Sovereigns. Fritz is a law professor at Univ. of New Mexico School of law, and his book is about the evolution of American's views on sovereignty and the Constituion in the early years of the republic. From the h-net review (PDF link):
In particular, Fritz argues that from the Revolution to the Civil War, Americans frequently debated whether "'the people' could express their sover‐ eign will in changing constitutions only by using government-sanctioned procedures" (p. 3). Some Americans argued for a "constrained" view that "expected the existing government to be involved in the revision process," while many others articu‐ lated an "expansive" view according to which "a majority of the people possessed the inherent right to make constitutional changes, even inde‐ pendent of government" (pp. 4-5).
Fritz goes on to detail early uprisings in American history wherein the participants attempted to secede and form new states from existing ones.

In the videos I saw yesterday, I heard numerous exclamations of "this is our house" and "this is our country" from the insurrectionists. From what I can see, the right wing milieu in the US around the militia movement really are, for better or worse, invoking conceptions of sovereignty that date back to the founding of the United States -- which was, like it or not, a white nationalist, settler colonialist enterprise.

The entire concept of collective sovereignty, or as, Fritz describes, popular sovereignty is really the idea that the law itself comes from a collective expression of "the people" -- and who is exactly in that category of "the people" is highly contested. Today it's clear the right in this country believes that "the people" stands for white people, and anyone else who accepts the rightful dominance of white people. As the collective sovereigns, they believe that they have the ability to unmake the law when it no longer serves their purposes of white nationalism, in much the way that a significant number of early Americans believed the same thing.

This is ultimately why liberals have such a difficult time understanding the American right, because for most liberals "the rule of law"is what they really believe in. Laws are given, and must be respected. In a way, this is very much, (and I believe unintentionally) in accord with Carl Schmitt's views that the state is the ultimate source of the law, the sovereign, and thus, is exempt from the law and can remake it as it sees fit. We can see this very clearly in the exercise of Presidential power in every administration of the post-war era at least, where the Executive Branch routinely deploys troops for extended periods without declaring war, even though this is arguably not permitted under the Constitution.It is necessary for the survival of the state, and so this exception is allowed. Now liberals will say, we have to respect the laws because the laws are drafted by our elected represenentatives, duly elected under the laws to represent us. But that doesn't really address the meta question of the elections and rules themselves -- a sovereign should be able to change those rules -- which technically, under the British system, the monarch can do, because they are the sovereign. Now yes, the British constitution, sure, but that's unwritten and a matter of custom.

Back to popular sovereignty in the US, 2021. The problem is we have around 20 to 30 percent, at least, of the United States that believes that the purpose of the United States is to be a white nationalist polity. They are firm in the belief that they can remake the system and break the immediate law, if it steps outside those bounds, because of their belief in literally a higher law of white nationalism. They have significant support in the police and military, naturally, since those are the most conservative institutions and white nationalist popular sovereignty is a venerable ideology that dates back to the founding of the United States.

I really don't think liberalism (in the sense of 'the Democrats') can square this circle, given that they're essentially Schmittians, and that the core of the nation state is the security services. I sure wish I knew how to solve this problem.
posted by wuwei at 10:59 PM on January 7 [61 favorites]


They seemed pretty radicalized in Charlottesville, well before the pandemic.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:59 PM on January 7 [19 favorites]


The guy went to Yale Law. The school should be suing him for defamation of their reputation.

Well, the course is only so long. You can’t expect them to cover all the amendments.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:02 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


The ways Trump could be held accountable, ranked by likelihood
3. Impeachment and conviction
2. The 25th Amendment
1. Convince him to resign
As my kin in Missouri say, "you can shit in one hand and wish in the other, and see which one fills up first."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:03 PM on January 7 [13 favorites]


I'm not talking about the racists and other terrible people who have always been terrible. I'm talking about people like this woman, people who maybe voted for Obama or were maybe apolitical and now they can't stop going on about Q. In addition to the things I've read other people say, I've also watched it happen with my own eyes with some people I know. It's pretty scary.
posted by triggerfinger at 11:08 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


Kirkaracha, we might be related.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:11 PM on January 7 [4 favorites]


As my kin in Missouri say, "you can shit in one hand and wish in the other, and see which one fills up first."

Kirkaracha, we might be related.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln


... My Missouri kin say this as well...hello cousins or something...
posted by albion moonlight at 11:23 PM on January 7 [5 favorites]


and she used that as a reason to say that we, too, should find ways to communicate that love towards his people if we hope to win them over.

We can practice love and tolerance and make welcoming spaces for people who are willing to do the same. But tolerance is not a moral precept; it is a peace treaty for allowing diverse communities to live together. Someone who won't agree to it, is not covered by the agreement.

There is a difference between "show that we are loving and supportive and willing to embrace our siblings" and "allow anyone at all to stomp through and hurt others on a whim." We can say, "there is a place for you at the table, if you should choose to join us." We don't have to say "but otherwise, we'll leave the kitchen unlocked and you can just grab whatever you want and trash the house on your way through."

There is no "meet in the middle" when one side is saying "we should have supportive communities that cherish diversity" and the other side is saying "I want the right to kill people who don't look like me."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:28 PM on January 7 [101 favorites]


Full statement from the American Federation of Teachers on the resignation of Betsy DeVos: "Good riddance."

In the nineties in Ontario, our neoconservative provincial government appointed a series of atrocious Ministers of Education, seemingly largely to display how trivial they considered the portfolio. The first one, overseeing the education of hundreds of thousands of students, had himself quit school at age thirteen to work in a mine.

My Google fu is failing me but I recall one of them, Janet Ecker, delivered a speech in 2000 outlining a new bill. It featured new requirements for teachers to do more work for less money, overseeing extracurricular activities.

She delivered this to an auditorium full of teachers who were obliged to attend on pain of dismissal if they were absent. They were also warned in advance that any interruption or heckling would be dealt with severely.

My recollection from the news coverage is that the teachers obeyed the restrictions: the minister walked out to absolute silence and delivered a perhaps 45-minute speech to an audience utterly unresponsive save for an occasional shifting of feet or a stifled cough. At the end she concluded, looked up at a thousand pairs of eyes still impassively regarding her, then uttered the usual thank-yous and walked offstage in a funereal silence.

Sadly, I think DeVos never got this kind of reception.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:30 PM on January 7 [17 favorites]


I will harp on this one more time as I feel it is relevant to fascism/authoritarianism/Trumpism

My awareness of that just sharpens my frustration that I'm not as good a buddhist as PhineasGage's friend. Which in itself is silly—letting go of desire is not a competition sport.

Desire is to enlightenment/karma as sin is to heaven/hell. It's a zero sum game. The only difference is one is promised on earth if you are good enough. The other is promised in heaven if your good enough. If not, you're a loser. That is the hustle. The con man plays you against yourself as he promises to have the answer you think you don't have. He/she pickpockets your watch and sells it back to you.

The person who creates the chaos is the one who holds the power. What the mark doesn't realize is that this power is temporary and that they have death on their side. Death is what makes the con man the loser.

So f*ck karma, fascism and original sin!

I'm out....
posted by goalyeehah at 11:32 PM on January 7 [9 favorites]


Following up on Rhaomi's posts above, the Black woman attacked by Trump supporters yesterday wasn't attending any protest in downtown Los Angeles; Berlinda Nibo lives two blocks from City Hall (where the Stop the Steal Rally took place and was met by counter-protest) and was walking with friends.

'I'm Just Getting Cornered by 30, 40 People': A Trump Mob in Los Angeles Attacked a Black Woman on Same Day as U.S. Capitol Terror (The Root) Pictures posted by photojournalist Raquel Natalicchio on Instagram corroborate the hellish scene described by 25-year-old Nibo, and Natalicchio confirmed to The Root that about 20 police officers were present but did not intervene in the mobbing—prompting her and two other bystanders to ultimately rescue Nibo. The mob separated Nibo from her friends, sprayed pepper spray in her eyes, tore out her hair extensions, and beat her.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:47 PM on January 7 [27 favorites]


@goalyeehah, well said. Thank you.
posted by maniabug at 11:50 PM on January 7 [2 favorites]


find ways to communicate that love towards his people if we hope to win them over

Personally I think trying to win these folks over is a fool's errand, but then I wouldn't know enlightenment from a hole in the ground so I'll leave that to wiser heads and wider hearts than mine. On a strategic level though, I have to echo Stacey Abrams when she was asked how she planned to convert Trump voters: “I’m not gonna get Catholics to become Baptists. I’m gonna get Baptists to go to church.”

Spend time wrestling with Trump voters if you must, chase those hearts and minds for whatever reasons seem important to you, but if your actual goal is to change the electorate or the shape of American politics in any meaningful way, you might do better to focus on the nonbelievers and the lapsed / nonpracticing believers than on the fanatically devout.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:51 PM on January 7 [87 favorites]


Now that it's been confirmed that an officer has died (warning: pop-up video) as a result of the riot, does that up the ante for any charges that can be brought against the rioters?
posted by gtrwolf at 11:52 PM on January 7 [1 favorite]


Bah. Even the journalists I like, who didn't seem surprised by Wednesday's events, are not asking the questions I want them to ask. Rachel Maddow had Sherrilyn Ifill on tonight, which was great (“law professor and president and director-counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund”^, sister of PBS Newshour anchor Gwen Ifill who died in 2016 just after 11/9) but she kept talking about the 25th Amendment without asking what seems like a basic question to me: is this White House filing some misspelled paperwork actually what will make the pivotal difference between the US military and other parts of the executive branch doing what Trump wants if he asks, and not doing what he asks?

I mean it seems possible to me, it just seems like more of the Just World Theorying to not directly question it while it's placed at the forefront of the final-couple-of-weeks safety measures the remaining presumably-non-Nazi bigwigs are making a great show of driving towards.

Another major question for me, having learned far more than I'd have liked to about nuclear weapons since the start of the Trump era: does the Permissive Action Link system, designed as I understand it to basically require a password for nuclear weapons to be armed and thus provide a centralized veto on their use regardless of who has physical possession of each weapon, actually work?

We had a somewhat blithe discussion in 2013 of an article entitled “For Nearly Two Decades the Nuclear Launch Code at all Minuteman Silos in the United States Was 00000000”, but now that it seems like a quite feasible possibility that the US might break up into multiple American faction/states, each with their own arsenal of weapons in their territory... yeah so does it actually work now, so that only one faction will be able to arm nukes, and what do we need to do to prevent that capability from “accidentally” leaving office with Trump or to figure out whether it already has?

And since, back when we were ostensibly less crazy, we shared this technology with everyone in the interest of non-proliferation, does that create a vulnerability? If a US successor state without PAL access welcomes in Russian or French or Chinese or Pakistani or Indian engineers, will they have a chance of cracking the system?

On another cheerful note, I just realized that Wednesday was very nearly that scene from The Handmaid's Tale... aaand Gelatin already got to it, but here's the text of the scene posted by dnash in our Fanfare thread in 2017. Just replace “Islamic fanatics” with “Antifa fanatics”. America, you're doing a heck of a job.
posted by XMLicious at 12:05 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]


This is ultimately why liberals have such a difficult time understanding the American right, because for most liberals "the rule of law"is what they really believe in. Laws are given, and must be respected.

That's incredibly reductionist. It completely ignores the fact that there is a process by which the law can be changed if there is majority support for that change.
posted by wierdo at 12:11 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


The problem is we have around 20 to 30 percent, at least, of the United States that believes that the purpose of the United States is to be a white nationalist polity. They are firm in the belief that they can remake the system and break the immediate law, if it steps outside those bounds, because of their belief in literally a higher law of white nationalism.

I really don't think liberalism (in the sense of 'the Democrats') can square this circle, given that they're essentially Schmittians, and that the core of the nation state is the security services. I sure wish I knew how to solve this problem.
posted by wuwei at 2:59 PM on January 8 [9 favorites +] [!]


(talking to the internet about politics isn't always productive for me but what the hey, there's a bad case of politics going around lately)

I think wuwei is saying something important. There are people who believe "the purpose of the United States is to be a white nationalist polity", but I believe precisely the opposite. I believe the purpose of the United States is to overcome its original sin of white supremacy in every incarnation and to become an infinitely welcoming multi-ethnic polity whose humanist and globalist values transcend ethnicity every single time.

The only time we are worth a damn as a nation is when we look that original sin in the face, beat it back, and atone for it. Ethnostaters can be wrong all they want, but it's when we keep them away from the levers of power and use the levers of power to diminish them and make the US a decent place for everyone, the US has a point. And we haven't done a great job, but sometimes we have a point, and that's why we matter, and it's the only reason why.

There is no other purpose of America. That is what I believe, everyone else is wrong, and they can leave if they don't like it. Yes, we are coming for your guns, yes, we (not just Jews, everybody) will replace you, and yes, we demand conformity to an evolving standard of tolerance, decency, and community support as we purge that original sin and fight racism and its many, some as yet undiscovered and unacknowledged, consequences.

They have an emotional position, so do I, and I'm going to spend my precious brain thoughts thinking up new ways to defeat them instead of arguing with them. That's the furthest I've come with a repudiation to white supremacy/sovereign citizen/fascism/Trumpists/whatever nonsense title they're using this week.
posted by saysthis at 12:15 AM on January 8 [72 favorites]


The guy went to Yale Law. The school should be suing him for defamation of their reputation.

If elite colleges sued their alumni for being rich, stupid and privileged, they wouldn't be sustainable.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:15 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]


"that there is a process by which the law can be changed if there is majority support for that change."

But that's the point. Even in alluding to "a process", you reveal yourself as a "liberal" in the terms of that passage. Real Americans don't need processes, they only need to exercise their rights, by force if necessary.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:16 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]


Anyone got a transcript of the Trump video? I don't want to hear his voice unless I absolutely have to.

It's right here.

Oh - you meant this one...
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:33 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


Apparently quora hosts communities, including a 112.5K-member group "Promoting the Democratic Party and the Progressive Agenda on Quora"
https://www.quora.com/q/war-donkey
Many Donald Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol today took selfies and allowed others to post photos of them. Since this could prove an easy way to identify them, what is the possibility of seeing some arrested for trespassing or other charges?


Nelson McKeeby·Thu
Worshiper at Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) (1966–present)

Many Donald Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol today took selfies and allowed others to post photos of them. Since this could prove an easy way to identify them, what is the possibility of seeing some arrested for trespassing or other charges?

Actually stupidity has its costs, and its costs are huge.

Earlier today a FBI reaction and investigation team arrived at the Capitоl and started the process of prosecution subjects. An associated group is aimed at investigation of the Capitоl Police. Their first duty is to define the crimes, and from what I can figure and am told these are categorical.

At the top is 18 USC Ch. 113B related to domestic terrorism. Currently people I am talking to tonight see the breaking and entering into, or climbing onto the U.S. Capitol as a violation of 18 USC 113 because it is a common charge for anyone who tries to breach the grounds of Federal buildings and cause trouble. To prove the charge you have to show 1. that the suspect was part of a group who entered into a federal facility 2. in the process intimidating or interfering with the operations of the government, 3. and during that entrance damage and or death occurred (by anyone). The charge is increased by being a conspiracy, meaning you spoke with someone else about this.

Leaving the other stuff behind, death occurred during this fiasco, so we could see hundreds of these idiots getting to know what a cell with an Al Qaeda member looks like.

It is possible those guards were ordered to open the gates. Please allow me to say sorry for my analysis being purposefully vague and not including details that I and other will know here.

By 3pm the terrorists were scaling the back side of the building and brandishing weapons at police while yelling that they would take the capital.

Police at some exposed locations told the press to beat feet as the terrorists had savagely beaten a young high school girl who was reporting, mistaking her for a professional, and damaged equipment, and there was increasing cases where the armed terrorists were engaging each other accusing the different groups as being undercover agents. The Oath Keepers issued a general order to other terrorists about this time to disarm and detain police “illegally” preventing entry into the buildings and to escalate use of force against anyone who resisted their authority. In the chaos more than a dozen militia leaders individually declared on their own in social media or in the public that they were now in defacto control of the legislative branch of government. Others wanted to search for sex slaves, find loot, kill police, protect police, find a place to take a piss (a lot of them talked about shitting in this or that office - or the gold standard in one of the high desks, and indeed most of these places where shat in as we are found out. Pissing and shitting on things is sort of a Trump supporter calling card now days.)

There were not enough police on that barricade in this anarchy and chaos - even I can see that, and the terrorists were not making much sense, so it looks like they called an Alamo.

An Alamo, called by all sorts of things, is a defensive tactic of surrounding your principal protective position then slowly allowing a collapsing sack maneuver to prevent casualties and allow time to get your innocents out of the line of fire. The gate is step one. The terrorists have been told that if they pass, they are terrorists and subject to the law. If they stay in the open area then all they could be charged with is minor stuff.

One of the police officers - tentatively identified as an off duty detective, began to take a series of selfies with the most violent of the terrorists. Another officer opened the gates and used his radio for something. It is possible this man was taking advantage of the comic opera of new dictators declaring themselves the new congress to get pictures ofd each idiot. It is what I would have done.

The main issue at that moment was that the President was not just hors d’ combat, he was in the bunker and had cut off communication with the outside world. Evidence, which will have to be confirmed, is that he went from the bunker to the West Wing then ducked back into the Bunker. He repeatedly authorized deadly force if anyone approached the White House, but at the same time was laughing at the congress and telling everyone on the D-List that the congress would never be able to vote now and by tomorrow it would be too late. Trump it seems did not want to change the motion of things because he may have

The effect of this was that repeated attempts to get him to make a statement or authorize Federal resources to aid what is in essence a Federal enclave turned into nothing, so the Capitol police unit at the Capitol were given the Alamo code words.

The Alamo code word is what we saw when the building was breached and was handled professionally. Basically you set a group of balk lines to hold terrorists back who are not yet active and try to form lines. You also collapse your forces back like a sack. Unfortunately there is supposed to be a rapid response team which was guarding the White House, and another which was stood down by Trump officials from the National Guard. Trump would be besieged by his staff to make a statement or release forces, but wouldn’t until quite late, often saying that this was what he was looking for.

Interestingly enough the Trump family was jumping on planes and getting out of Dodge.

Having only enough force to hold a small area and still get the congress out, the Capital police seem to have designated the doors and windows of the actual congress rooms and two snaking, L shaped corridors as their must hold lines. I will not publish this map but I have made one and what they did was remarkable and had to have some planning behind it. Remember, the Senate and the Congress leadership and the Vice President are removed first while the main bodies are held in place to avoid overloading transportation. Next a second group led the 31 odd congress people on the continuity team, then 50 odd staffers on continuity out.

The remaining congress huddled under threat of death while a SMALL team made two strong points at hallway and entrance doors and kept control of two egress routes. Slowly the remaining congressmen were rescued, but at one point they had to defend the hallway to the north of the chambers with gunfire.

One of the weirdest thing was that the crowd interfered with medical treatment for the four people who died. No one is sure why.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:34 AM on January 8 [69 favorites]


I don't know if that commenter's analysis is accurate, but he sounds confident, and it's the first hint I've seen that the United States Capitol Police actually had a plan or were responding in a systematic and coordinated way that wasn't kermit-the-frog-panic.gif.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:38 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


One of the weirdest thing was that the crowd interfered with medical treatment for the four people who died. No one is sure why.

If you're convinced that the other side is full of pedophiles and Satan-worshipers, are you going to trust them to "administer medical treatment" to anyone?

I guess the more callous possibility is that they wanted people to die because it would make a better meme.
posted by nosewings at 12:57 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


@Hari Kunzru: AntiFa is the MAGA equivalent of ‘a big boy did it and ran away’

Sort of like if the Family Circus kids grew up, became far right insurgents and blamed everything on NotMe.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:13 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


I don't know if that commenter's analysis is accurate, but he sounds confident...

It's easy to sound confident - ask any mansplainer! It certainly sounds plausible. But without knowing who Nelson McKeeby is or what his credentials are, this reads like speculation to me.

Edited to add: his profile says he's a film and tv guy with a writing degree. I'm more dubious now.
posted by harriet vane at 1:17 AM on January 8 [17 favorites]


Apparently Rudy's DMs are still open: A message to you Rudy ....
posted by mbo at 1:23 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


One of the weirdest thing was that the crowd interfered with medical treatment for the four people who died. No one is sure why.

Remember that in Trump's opinion, being wounded or killed makes you a loser.
posted by meowzilla at 1:35 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


One of the weirdest thing was that the crowd interfered with medical treatment for the four people who died. No one is sure why.

Only weird if you start with the premise that a violent MAGA mob values human life. I'm not sure why anyone with more than two brain cells would think that.
posted by basalganglia at 1:42 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


But without knowing who Nelson McKeeby is or what his credentials are, this reads like speculation to me.

Nelson McKeeby the noted author of *checks Amazon*, The Conspiracy of the Ravens: A biomythographic metafictional hypernarrative?

Yeah, sounds likes fanfic. The "That's what I would have done" bit in the piece kinda gives it away. Looks a lot like he tries to claim authority by association and some sketchy biographical claims. But that is one of the major problems isn't it? So many people thinking reality is just like another shitty movie and want to get a starring role, so they make up a script that must be right, fitting their already held beliefs, to show they're ready for the limelight.

(Gotta love this bit from his bio, "Nelson McKeeby is a native of Iowa, born near Spirit Lake to a Navy Officer and his teacher wife." His teacher wife? That's how he refers to his mother?)
posted by gusottertrout at 2:15 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]


NYT still doesn't get it

"Democrats Demand Trump’s Removal; More Officials Resign in Protest"

fools, they're not resigning in protest - they're about to be out of a job and resigning to avoid taking responsibility for a 25th amendement solution

this is one of our supposed papers of record
posted by kokaku at 2:18 AM on January 8 [32 favorites]


One of the weirdest thing was that the crowd interfered with medical treatment for the four people who died. No one is sure why.

I don't know if this was the case in general but one of the rioters I watched complained that the cops wouldn't let him help even though he was trained because the cops said they were trained also. A certain type of man has to be an expert on everything even it means interfering with people trying to save someone's life.
posted by rdr at 2:23 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


One of the weirdest thing was that the crowd interfered with medical treatment for the four people who died. No one is sure why.

Boy, yeah, it sure is weird after 10 months of having the MAGA cult insist that taking a pandemic seriously is an attack on their freedoms that they'd interfere with medical treatment.
posted by wildblueyonder at 2:32 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]


...That so many Republicans are now speaking up—1,448 days into the Trump presidency and in the immediate aftermath of an insurrection effort staged by a pro-Trump mob—is better than nothing. The trauma of this moment may even catalyze for some Republicans a searching reexamination of what went wrong and a desire for reconciliation. Let’s hope so.

But reconciliation can’t happen without truth, and the truth is that the blame for the American carnage we saw unfold in Washington, D.C., on January 6, 2021, can be laid at the feet of the president and his many Republican enablers. Those with integrity will admit, first to themselves and then to the wider world, their complicity in the deceitful and disgraceful presidency of Donald Trump. It is the only decent thing to do, and we’ve gone far too long with an absence of decency.
Republicans Own This Insurrection
posted by y2karl at 2:54 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


We should have an investigation into the four deaths in the Capitol. And at least 33 hearings over two years. And Donald should give 11 hours of testimony.
posted by adept256 at 2:56 AM on January 8 [26 favorites]


> Yeah, sounds likes fanfic.

Oh sure. He's not claiming to have secret information based on his position as "deputy sheriff at South Carolina (state) (1999–2004)", but is instead presenting a stitched-together mix of publicly available information and guesswork.

After variations on the same twenty pictures of Buffalo-Horns-Man on imgur and news sources, along with following the Electoral College process, it was nice to have a narrative describing the overall process of what was going on and how people were moving around. But it was guesswork.

This is a bit better: Washington Post - How the U.S. Capitol Police were overrun in a ‘monumental’ security failure
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:58 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


See also

A Self-Pardon Won’t Save Trump
posted by y2karl at 3:02 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


> And Donald should give 11 hours of testimony.

He'll probably get a note from his doctor claiming that, since Trump has never suffered consequences for his actions before now, anything at this point would be too much of a shock for him.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:05 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


Imagine that to avoid the uncertainty of a self-pardon, he does the ol' resign and then get the VP to pardon him trick.

Except that the moment Pence has that piece of paper, he tells the secret service to remove this man from the White House. No pardon.

A fellow can dream.
posted by atrazine at 3:08 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]




I believe the purpose of the United States is to overcome its original sin of white supremacy in every incarnation and to become an infinitely welcoming multi-ethnic polity whose humanist and globalist values transcend ethnicity every single time.

This messianic universalism frankly scares me, particularly because it comes from atop stolen land that bore fruit on the backs of stolen labor. I find it barely distinguishable from the notion of a shining city on a hill. We come in peace & shoot to kill. Your ethnicity will be assimilated.
posted by dmh at 3:14 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]


I was thinking earlier about the possibility of Pence pardoning Trump and here's where I landed. Considering that Pence already has death threats against him by Trumpists (particularly Lin Wood's posts on Parler), there is really nothing that would hold him to pardoning Trump. Had that not been the case, I could imagine that fear of their ire might have been enough to push him to pardon Trump, but that's already a moot point. Whether it even gets to the point of Trump resigning, who knows? But were it not for those death threats I would have been certain that Pence would pardon him in that instance. But now...
posted by NotTheRedBaron at 3:14 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


aside: Buddhism...It is still dogma...

hmmm. I'll differ. buddhism does not ask you to believe anything. it suggests the practices of the eightfold path, and values experiential insights that arise. IME.

posted by j_curiouser at 3:18 AM on January 8 [17 favorites]


@jsmooth995: "The cult members are taking this new video pretty well"

narrator: they are not taking Trump's video message well

@harikunzru: "I always assumed he’d be able to retire to Mar-a-Lago as the king in exile, cruelly robbed of his rightful throne. But maybe the end of the story is them turning on him, the last ones to work out that he is the greatest betrayer of all"

recording of Trump: "you knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in."
posted by wildblueyonder at 3:35 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


That is some mythical bullshit right there. All representatives should be expected to vote their conscience for what is right. The notion that representatives are always supposed to vote what their constituents want is horrible justification for a century of violent Jim Crow laws, anti-abortion laws and anti-gay bigotry. No you don't just do what your "constituents" want because your constituents are more than just the majority people who voted for you.

If you count the entire electorate as constituents, and not just one's own party, then that is the whole point of representative democracy. Whereas an individual member's conscience may be no more reliable than that of the pharmacist who wilfully destroyed Covid19 vaccines (and if you count the political system as selecting in a way that is favourable to entitled narcissism, it may be less reliable).
posted by acb at 3:51 AM on January 8


This is not how I thought the megathreads would end.


.
posted by infini at 3:59 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


Not only did Trump launch a terrorist attack with intent to hurt and kill legislators, it appears that state secrets may have been stolen, and perpetrators knew where to go. More data for Russia, it seems.

I wonder how many objects that went missing during the attack will end up in trophy cases in a wing of the Kremlin.
posted by acb at 4:00 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]




Whether it even gets to the point of Trump resigning, who knows? But were it not for those death threats I would have been certain that Pence would pardon him in that instance. But now...

My prediction is that Pence will ultimately pardon Trump, but Trump will wait until the absolute last minute on Inauguration Day to resign and he'll purposefully cut things so close that technically Pence is no longer even president when the pardon is actually issued, but the Democratic leadership will just accept that it really happened because it's time to look forward and to argue otherwise would seem childish and petty and it's not like Trump couldn't have done it earlier if he had wanted to.

This stupid technicality will also provide the right with a talking point to shut down any legitimate criticism of the broadness and legality of the pardon because Democrats watches must have been running a little fast and why are they so obsessed about something as insignificant as five minutes?

He came in as a disgusting Internet troll, and he will leave as a disgusting Internet troll.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:52 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


...but the Democratic leadership will just accept that it really happened because it's time to look forward and to argue otherwise would seem childish and petty and it's not like Trump couldn't have done it earlier if he had wanted to. This stupid technicality will also provide the right with a talking point to shut down any legitimate criticism of the broadness and legality of the pardon because Democrats watches must have been running a little fast and why are they so obsessed about something as insignificant as five minutes?

And then the Democrats could point to the big stack of state lawsuits filed against Trump, which the pardon did not protect him from, and shrug and say "fine then, we'll just let these stand."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:55 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]


The bus was sitting there all day Wednesday, the bus was idling and filled with gas, the bus was ready to go. Everybody could see it sitting there.
And now it's left the station, with all those hopeful idiots underneath it.

Who could have predicted it? Oh, yeah, EVERYBODY.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 4:58 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]




Tacticool bros wearing punisher logos are trying to emulate "American Sniper" Chris Kyle who's SEAL Team 3 platoon wore it. That platoon (Task Unit Bruiser) was commanded by conservative military/motivational podcaster Jocko Willink and also included astronaut Jonny Kim.
posted by PenDevil at 5:01 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


CNN is announcing that Asst. House Speaker Katherine Clark has said that if, as anticipated, Pence and the Cabinet won't invoke the 25th Amendment, impeachment proceedings will begin next week. This may well be largely symbolic, but Pence, despite his boss deliberately putting his life in danger, will not go against Trump.
posted by essexjan at 5:03 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


6 months ago I warned of the Trump Cult, 30 million strong. And that he would control that cult in or out of office.
The worst thing in the world us non-cultists can do now is assume it will all just go away. It will not -- it will only get worse unless and until it is exterminated.
Every police department in America is controlled by a MAGA union chief with loyal MAGA lieutenants and many MAGA officers in the department ranks. They are collaborating with the civilian MAGA organizations, allowing them free rein, as we witnessed in the Capitol Riot. Police officers permitted entry and took selfies. There were active police and military among the rioters.
posted by robbyrobs at 5:05 AM on January 8 [20 favorites]


idk how many times it has to be underlined that "now is the time to move on and put this behind us" is not a winning strategy when it comes to dealing with fascist movements but it sure looks like that's where things are probably headed. i mean i get the impulse in some ways; not wanting to give Trump and assorted reactionaries additional oxygen and instead focus on the here and now is an understandable desire. but we also need to remember that the fascists are still out there, they still want what they want, and they're not going anywhere. trump's brand might be ruined, for however long, but it is all but certain the fash are going to rally behind a slicker, more savvy candidate. not to mention domestic terrorism may spike over the next two to four years.

electoral politics is but one tool in the toolbox. there absolutely needs to be a concerted, widespread national reckoning with the far right, however painful that'll be, if there's going to be any hope of preventing things from getting much, much worse in the months and years to come.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:09 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]


Today is the day I start wondering if the President of the United States of America can face Federal felony murder charges for inciting a riot that resulted in the murder of police officer and there is a Federal death penalty.

I wonder if Trump and his rioters are aware of just how grave their legal situation is.
posted by srboisvert at 5:15 AM on January 8 [17 favorites]


Let's review:

When a Black man and a Jewish man were elected to GA Senate seats, REPUBLICANS rioted, built a gallows, and broke into the Capitol with the intent of taking legislators hostage and hanging them.

When they came for VP Pence, the US Secret Service had to put one them down. Reading about how Trump held back the rapid response force intended to back up the Capitol Police only reinforces the essentially white supremacist nature of this entire affair.
posted by mikelieman at 5:17 AM on January 8 [57 favorites]


I wonder if Trump and his rioters are aware of just how grave their legal situation is.
posted by srboisvert at 1:15 PM on January 8


The police officer's death has definitely upped the ante as far as consequences for the rioters are concerned, but I still have this feeling that Trump will just be allowed to disappear off to Mar-a-Lago as long as he agrees to go quietly. That shouldn't happen, he is as culpable as the mob who smashed their way into the Capitol. Yet still, I think he'll have a Get Out Of Jail Free card tucked away somewhere.
posted by essexjan at 5:21 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


Not one but two Zip tie guys have now been spotted. But just a bunch of Lone Wolves and crazies?
The Pentagon blocked the DC National Guard from receiving riot gear or interacting with protesters without explicit approval from Trump's defense secretary.
Military Times: the National Guard only shows up to D.C. when they’ve been invited, and the Capitol Police did not extend that invitation until after the breach.
Gov. Larry Hogan says requests to send in the Maryland National Guard were rejected for 90 minutes on Wednesday.
posted by adamvasco at 5:24 AM on January 8 [30 favorites]


1) since when does Trump go anywhere quietly
2) how long would he stay quiet?

I hope he doesn’t even get presented the option, but I can’t see him agreeing to the terms any more than he does to any other “binding agreement”.
posted by notoriety public at 5:24 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


It seems like what I will call, for lack of a better term, the "maintaining the veil of respectability" conservatives are trying to turn this into "actually it was antifa!", which is both hard to do when their allies were posting selfies of themselves in the Capitol and is also pissing off their allies who are saying "Uh no, that was us storming the Capitol for Freedom like you told us to." Correct? Or am I misreading things?
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 5:28 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


Michael Tae Sweeney:
Trump's back is against the wall and he's retreating because he knows the jig is up if he's removed from office now. He's buying time. If you do not immediately impeach and prosecute him, he will walk it all back in a few days, then go further next time.

If you need evidence for this contention please see also: everything Donald Trump has done in his entire life.

I can't believe we're five years into this and people still don't understand how this guy works, so let someone who accurately predicted his post-election behavior so far tell you: Get rid of him immediately.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:31 AM on January 8 [74 favorites]


It's gaslighting, pure and simple. Every single person who argues "Antifa were the real attackers" when they're talking to you is going back to his group of Trump-supporting friends and high-fiving each other and laughing at pictures of their buddies storming the capital.
posted by mmoncur at 5:34 AM on January 8 [33 favorites]


If you do not immediately impeach and prosecute him, he will walk it all back in a few days, then go further next time.

And in the last sentence of his so-called 'concession' video, he is essentially saying precisely that.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 5:44 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


On the MD National Guard bit, Trump and his DoD cronies denied them entry. Then the Secretary of the Army gave them permission?

Which makes it sound like the armed forced crossed the Rubicon on Wednesday. For the side of the angels, but they still defied civilian authority to mobilize troops in the capital.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:44 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


This video of AP photographer @johnminchillo at the protest yesterday is insane. He was dragged out and nearly lynched.

I literally said the words out loud to my wife on Wed that these Y'all Queda fuckers were going to get friends of ours hurt or killed. A good friend of mine who works for a 3 letter national news division had his arm broken by a "non-lethal" round by the LAPD during the BLM protests last summer. The images and video we see to prove how bad these treasonous fuckers are exist because there's a human being behind the camera. Ron Haviv's images were mentioned up thread. Ron was kidnapped and beaten over a 4-5 period during the war in Bosnia after capturing images of war crimes and was sure he was going to be executed when he was driven to a secluded area with other reporters and dropped off on the side of the road and turned over to embassy staff. I'll be interested to hear his account of what happened Wed when he's had time to decompress.
posted by photoslob at 5:45 AM on January 8 [21 favorites]


CNN Commentator Keith Boykin: "I warned you in 2019 that Trump was calling for a civil war, and they laughed at me for saying that."
posted by cashman at 5:49 AM on January 8 [31 favorites]




All y'all saying "the Dems will definitely just let this go and prosecute no one," can y'all shush? I mean, I get it. You want to protect your hearts by expecting the worst. But you make it more possible every time you say it publicly. Instead, call your representatives. If your elected rep is a literal Nazi, like mine (Madison Cawthorn), call somebody else's rep who might be more amenable.

Our elected legislators' hearts are still beating hard with the memories of what they went through. They need to know that we support prosecution of everyone involved, from the Capitol Police to the President of the United States.

Save the grousing about how shitty our leaders are until after they do the thing. Pre-grousing about how shitty they'll probably be helps no one.
posted by rikschell at 5:55 AM on January 8 [54 favorites]


Yeah, "Y'all Queda", "lol mother", and "my kin in Missouri" all sound pretty discouraging to this leftist from Kentucky. It's been a perennial problem on Metafilter, and it's not surprising to see in this context, but...

Try to remember this country is blue, or nearly so, in many more places than you think. Don't let gerrymandering warp your perception. You're dismissing near 50% of your allies when you do this.
posted by thoroughburro at 5:59 AM on January 8 [96 favorites]


Harvard: Concern over storming of the Capitol. Harvard President Larry Bacow, Harvard faculty, students call for affirmation of American principles.
“The future of our republic depends on our willingness to defend the values that brought it into being. The time has come for people of every political persuasion to denounce the lies, lawlessness, and violence that have brought our nation to the brink of constitutional crisis. As members of a university community dedicated to truth, learning, research, debate, and service, we condemn ignorance and hatred, and stand in support of the rule of law and the role of knowledge.”

...

“What happened today was not merely the storming of our Capitol building, horrible enough as that is and something essentially unwitnessed since the British sacking of Washington in 1814. What we saw were two things that are fundamentally incompatible with a republic,” said Daniel Carpenter, Allie S. Freed Professor of Government. “First, a faction incited by our executive shut down the body that makes our laws. This is a grave attack on the separation of powers. It is in monarchies and Cromwellian autocracies, not democratic republics, that strongmen prorogue or stop the meetings of representative legislatures. Second, that faction also halted the process of certifying the Electoral College vote. The factional attack succeeded in delaying that certification.
More at the link.
posted by cashman at 6:00 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


Harvard is in good company:
Rob @robrousseau
2016: Maybe it won't be that bad

2021: the Axe Body Spray Corporation stands firmly against the attempted overthrow of the US government
10:50 PM · Jan 7, 2021·
AXE@AXE · 14h

We'd rather be lonely than with that mob. AXE condemns yesterday's acts of violence and hate at the Capitol. We believe in the democratic process and the peaceful transition of power.
Mike DeBonis @mikedebonis · 23h
Left by the mob: a lonely can of Axe body spray
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:07 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]


The whole thing is just so stupid and dumb but the true capper is that the criminals all documented their crimes so extensively and thoroughly that Stringer Bell's head would have a exploded like a nuclear bomb if he were there.

And all this after a summer of protests about racial justice. If these almost exclusively white middle class yahoos walk or get only soft-pedalled charges there will be some wild consequences because it will tear away the very last whisper thin shred of justice pretense in America.
posted by srboisvert at 6:09 AM on January 8 [24 favorites]


I was thinking. Since that cop died, the Blue Lives Matter crowd should be condemning all the Trump rioters and demanding they be arrested and charged with murder. That's happening, right?
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 6:10 AM on January 8 [44 favorites]


Stanford scholars reflect on the occupation of the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday and suggest what needs to happen next to preserve democracy.

"Weighing in on the Capitol takeover are:

Gregory Ablavsky, associate professor of law
Bruce Cain, professor of political science in the School of Humanities and Sciences and director of the Bill Lane Center for the American West
Larry Diamond, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies (FSI)
Frank Fukuyama, Olivier Nomellini Senior Fellow at FSI
Shirin Sinnar, professor of law
David Sklansky, Stanley Morrison Professor Law; faculty co-director of the Stanford Criminal Justice Center
Stephen Stedman, senior fellow at FSI
Robb Willer, professor of sociology, School of Humanities and Sciences"
posted by cashman at 6:11 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


CNN Commentator Keith Boykin: "I warned you in 2019 that Trump was calling for a civil war, and they laughed at me for saying that."

I've had Sarah Kendzior's podcast bookmarked for months but had to stop listening because -- given her insight and prior prescience -- I couldn't listen to where we were going (here.) without freaking out. And now I'm freaking out anyway, because if there's any lesson to 2020 it is this: There is no lower limit.
posted by mikelieman at 6:12 AM on January 8 [17 favorites]


The president and his co-conspirators watched, cheered and danced... as the violence they incited was about to go down.
Well someone had to add the downfall soundtrack to this mess.
posted by Lanark at 6:13 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


Regarding the death of the cop and the blue lives matter crowd, r/conservative this morning was saying the media is misrepresenting the situation because he was not actually KIA.
posted by os tuberoes at 6:14 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]




Stanford scholars reflect on the occupation of the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday and suggest what needs to happen next to preserve democracy.

Disappointed that not one of these scholars acknowledged that Josh Hawley is a Stanford graduate.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:22 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


For me, there's no point in the furious debate between "was cops and the Guard not showing up to stop the Trump Riots incompetence or malice?"

Obviously if it was a planned thing we have a huge problem

On the other hand, if the federal law enforcement apparatus *legitimately* can't stop a rowdy Sunday after-church crowd at Denny's, that is also a huge problem.

(And it looks like it's both, which is also bad).

Regarding the death of the cop and the blue lives matter crowd, r/conservative this morning was saying the media is misrepresenting the situation because he was not actually KIA.


Ah, of course. But you'd think they'd be furious about "antifa plant" rioters killing a cop...weird...
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 6:23 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


There is no question they let it happen. There is so much footage and so many 1st hand accounts of them letting it happen. Who cares if they planned ahead or on the day said, "go ahead?" They allowed it. This we know.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:26 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


Literally everyone we know of so far from the insurrection was someone in a professional or managerial job (GC and HR director for an insurance company, CEO of a marketing firm, owner/operator of a pool supply company)

That’s not unusual. The French Revolution was a bunch of educated middle class folks, the American Revolution a bunch of wealthy landowners.

Poor folks are too busy staying alive.

...but notice there weren’t many lawyers this time around (excepting the two elected ones in the Senate)? Nobody wants to get disbarred.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:34 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]


(Speaking of disbarment, leotrotsky...) Dominion did say their legal action was "imminent" and here they go suing Sidney Powell for some 1.3 billion dollars...
posted by deeker at 6:35 AM on January 8 [43 favorites]


My prediction is that Pence will ultimately pardon Trump

Why? Why would he do this? He gains nothing, and loses his future. The mob already wants him dead. They came to *kill* him and Trump let them. Secret Service had to kill somebody for his protection.

He’s venal and relatively weak, but not stupid.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


(Speaking of disbarment, leotrotsky...) Dominion did say their legal action was "imminent" and here they go suing Sidney Powell for some 1.3 billion dollars...

124 pages. BRB, going to go get a bottle of bourbon to enjoy this ray of sunshine in the dreary gray of white supremacist insurrection.
posted by mikelieman at 6:39 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


Today is the day I start wondering if the President of the United States of America can face Federal felony murder charges for inciting a riot that resulted in the murder of police officer and there is a Federal death penalty.

Arguably Hawley and Cruz as well. If I’m Mitch I’d work with Schumer to expel them both, and I bet he can whip the votes. Missouri is a safe seat for Republicans, and everybody hates Ted Cruz. Cotton would be on board to kneecap his potential challengers in 2024.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:44 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]




This would be a good time for Congress's subpoena power to not be completely toothless.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:47 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


State lawmaker suspected of letting demonstrators into Oregon Capitol
Sources with knowledge of the matter say surveillance footage from the morning shows state Rep. Mike Nearman, R-Independence, exiting the Capitol on the north side of the building, near where demonstrators were gathering to protest restrictions to stem the spread of COVID-19. Shortly afterward, some demonstrators gained access to a vestibule within the building, setting off a standoff with state troopers and Salem police that resulted in two arrests.

According to one person with knowledge of the investigation, after Nearman exited the Capitol he appears to have walked around the building and used his ID badge to re-enter from the south side. The Legislature was meeting in a special session on Dec. 21 to approve a variety of new spending measures and extend the state’s ban on residential evictions. The Capitol building has been closed to the public since the outset of the coronavirus pandemic.

Reached Thursday morning, Nearman repeatedly declined to discuss the matter. Asked about the footage and whether he’d allowed demonstrators into the Capitol, he repeated: “I just don’t have anything to say.” Nearman asked who had told OPB there was surveillance footage.

House Speaker Tina Kotek, D-Portland, confirmed that Nearman is suspected of involvement. In a press conference Thursday morning, she said she was looking into sanctions for the representative, who just won his fourth term in office.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:48 AM on January 8 [38 favorites]


[Couple comments deleted. Stop the "y'all Qaeda"/"teahadi" etc. Just stop, these actions/ideologies are plenty bad without drawing comparisons that inevitably land in a racist way (as if violent fundamentalism is something "others" do) - and if you don't mean it in a racist way, then you're doing ironic racism, which is also bad so please stop.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:49 AM on January 8 [56 favorites]


"y'all Qaeda"/"teahadi" etc.... inevitably land in a racist way (as if violent fundamentalism is something "others" do)

THANK YOU <3

"Coup Klux Klan" is the moniker I am partial to for these exact reasons.
posted by MiraK at 6:52 AM on January 8 [34 favorites]


From now on, I will refer to foreign terrorists as "those assholes" and domestic terrorists as "these assholes."
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:53 AM on January 8 [66 favorites]


I think it’s a mistake to assume Pence is with Trump by not triggering 25th amendment. He may just not have the votes. The cabinet is full of lackeys and cowards.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:55 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


Maybe referring to violent white supremacist insurrectionists isn't the ideal time to try and be wacky.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:56 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]


leotrotsky I've got a terrible track record at prediction, but i dont think the death threats etc will stop Pence from pardoning Trump if thats what Trump wants. Which Trump may not want.

Why would he do it? To take a final opportunity to flip Amrica the bird and demonstrate his hatred and contempt for liberals, Democrats, leftists, and wveryone else he dislikes.

His career was over, Trump gave him the VP spot, and while he may not much like Trump I think he hates us more. Petty vengeance against us is why I think he'd pardon Trump.

Also, memory is short, MAGA cultist memory shorter. Right now they don't like him, but if he pardons Trump they'll love him again and there's his book deal and entry to the various high pay low work right wing media royalty jobs.

Theres no downside, from Pence's POV, to pardoning Trump and a lot of upside.

OTOH I wpuldnt be surprised if Trump went for a self pardon because, well, he's an asshole.
posted by sotonohito at 6:57 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


For me, there's no point in the furious debate between "was cops and the Guard not showing up to stop the Trump Riots incompetence or malice?"

Obviously if it was a planned thing we have a huge problem

On the other hand, if the federal law enforcement apparatus *legitimately* can't stop a rowdy Sunday after-church crowd at Denny's, that is also a huge problem.


Yes, but they are different huge problems with different solutions, which is why that debate is important.

(And it looks like it's both, which is also bad).

Agreed...which means a solution must address both elements.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:57 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


@craigcalcaterra:
I get Democrats saying that there may not be time to hold impeachment votes, but you can bet your ass that if Stephen Breyer died in a skydiving accident this morning some 37 year old Federalist Society jackwad with no experience would be a Supreme Court justice by nightfall.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:58 AM on January 8 [148 favorites]


He may just not have the votes

On the other hand, Pence's boss literally incited a mob to murder him. So he can come out publicly to the media and say so, if that's the case, because there's nothing more his boss can do to him at this point, but try again. What we're witnessing are profiles in cowardice, that's all.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:59 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


Holly Figueroa O'Reilly
@AynRandPaulRyan
The man chasing this cop up the stairs is Doug Jensen. He works for Forrest & Associate Masonry in Des Moines.
They have said they don't agree with his actions, but he still works there.

/You may have seen part of this video yesterday. This video shows most of the encounter showing a mob of white supremacists chasing a Black cop up the stairs of the Capital Building. It is horrific.

Anybody from Des Moines?
posted by bluesky43 at 6:59 AM on January 8 [26 favorites]


Good to see the word from Rep. Katherine Clark that they plan an impeachment vote by mid-week. Sure, we're all lamenting whether surely this will get the Senate to find its spines and muster the two-thirds vote to throw Trump out of office, even as concerned Ben Sasse says he'll "consider" articles of impeachment.

One aspect that's not getting much attention is that the Senate also has the option to disqualify Trump from holding public office again. Corey Brettschneider, a political science professor at Brown, lays out the precedent and that it only takes a majority vote, not two-thirds.

Sure, I want Trump disgraced, humiliated and tossed from the White House. But I'd **also** love to see him disqualified from running in 2024, because if so, you know he'd spend the next four years telling the MAGAhats not to vote and generally demoralizing all Republicans. And it prevents the nightmare scenario that if he did run again, he might actually win.
posted by martin q blank at 7:00 AM on January 8 [30 favorites]


Why would he do it? To take a final opportunity to flip Amrica the bird and demonstrate his hatred and contempt for liberals, Democrats, leftists, and wveryone else he dislikes.

His career was over, Trump gave him the VP spot, and while he may not much like Trump I think he hates us more. Petty vengeance against is is why I think he'd pardon Trump.


I disagree. Trump tried to get him and his family killed. That leaves a mark. I know we’re sifting through grades of dogshit, but Pence and Trump are not the same. Pence is not a sociopath, he’s a shitty politician with bad judgement and no charisma. Look at what he did earlier this week certifying the election. His career (unfortunately) is not over. He could pick up a Senate seat in Indiana whenever he wants.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:03 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


Now he’s back to tweeting what amounts to veiled threats while Congress dithers and his allies spin and deflect, because even after all that’s happened it’s still more important to not hurt the feelings of Trump and his mob than it is to ensure the continued existence of the republic and the bodily safety of millions of people.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:03 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


I hope that Dominion lawsuit ends with Powell, Giuliani, and the Trump campaign completely bankrupt. Giuliani and the campaign aren’t named as defendants, but hopefully that’s just a matter of time.

And in any case Trump needs to be barred from future office so that he can never spend campaign money on himself and his family.
posted by jedicus at 7:04 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


Trump is rage-tweeting again, so maybe they should rethink just chilling until Wednesday. The insurrectionists are not going to wait until the 19th.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:09 AM on January 8 [15 favorites]


Somebody in the other thread asked me what I thought about all of this. All I can say is I am in the fetal position in bed. Under siege in Portland, Oregon. I have spent this entire summer being beaten the fuck down by cops, and I am utterly exhausted. I just can’t, anymore.
posted by gucci mane at 7:11 AM on January 8 [52 favorites]


Trump is now responsible for a Capitol Police officer, a person sworn to protect the government of which he is the head, having been beat to death with a fire extinguisher by rioters doing his bidding. Is this still not enough to get rid of him immediately?
posted by Jess the Mess at 7:12 AM on January 8 [14 favorites]


Is this still not enough to get rid of him immediately?

Not according to house leadership
posted by fluttering hellfire at 7:15 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


I can't leave that question about racism and Trump supporters. Sorry, I just can't. I met an adult male Canadian, working professional, who'd moved to the US a few years before the 2016 election. In many ways I think his comments during his visit exemplify the deep racism we're talking about.. I suspect there was a more blatant version of racism he'd reveal around other people, but in my company he was that exact type of person: late in the election, Trump was the front-runner and you can recall the media frenzy, and during his visit he's positively gleeful about the spectacle of it all. How this guy is going to "shake things up."

I am not sure how you could excuse support of a Trump presidency at that time, let alone now. After everything that has happened, the question as to whether "all Trump supporters are racist" is offensively meaningless. The way a type of white person could indulge in the fantasy that this person would become president and things might get "interesting" speaks to the generations of entitled behaviours that grow from systemic racism in societies: not one thought to the clear signs of how Trump would enthusiastically stoke the ugliest emotions, to get elected. Not one thought to what this would portend, to actually elect a person who was not just racist in the usual ways, but explicitly so, demonstratively so.

We need to figure out this problem in societies but we don't need to play philosophy and try to imagine the non-racist Trump voter. It's beyond fruitless.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:15 AM on January 8 [19 favorites]


> Pence and Trump are not the same. Pence is not a sociopath. Look at what he did earlier this week certifying the election.

In the case of the certification, Pence did it because he wasn't in denial in the way Trump was and he wants to look like a fucking adult for the sake of his coming job search.

In the case of invoking the 25th Amendment, Pence is not doing it because he's not going to risk the public shame of failed leadership by standing up for it without getting enough of his colleagues on board. I'm fairly certain he does not want to bust his ass that hard for something that will only result in the people he knows hating him more, and I'm really super certain he does *not* want to be in the hot seat for even two miserable weeks.
posted by at by at 7:16 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]






That’s not unusual. The French Revolution was a bunch of educated middle class folks, the American Revolution a bunch of wealthy landowners.

Also, the intellectuals leading most Communist revolutions being rebellious sons of the bourgeoisie or higher.
posted by acb at 7:23 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


"He’s venal and relatively weak, but not stupid."

I've been following Mike Pence's career since he was a talk-radio asshole in Indiana, and I can assure you, he is extremely stupid. He follows scripts, and vamps by returning to talking points he knows well. He can't function outside those narrow parameters. He was widely known as the dumbest member of Congress. He did not know the stock market can go down, because his talking-points providers told him that over the long term, the market always goes up. His tiny brain took this as "the market always goes up" and was unable to answer questions about privatizing social security and what happens if someone has to retire during a downturn. He just blinked stupidly and insisted stocks never go down so that wasn't a thing that could happen.

Pence hasn't done anything in public because he has literally no idea what to do. "A mob tried to kill me because the president incited them to" is way, way too far outside his operating parameters. And until someone gives him talking points -- and they better be talking points that accord with what he's been parroting for 20 years, because he's REALLY BAD at new talking points and it takes him quite a while to get smooth at delivering them -- he won't say or do shit.

I think people sometimes don't realize this because mostly he gives press conferences with talking points and doesn't take questions, but when he was governor of Indiana and sometimes had to actually answer questions, from the media or from the legislature, when something he did blew up in his face, he was hilariously stupid. Or it would have been hilarious if he weren't busy rolling back civil rights and public health. He ACTS like a normal Republican, so people think he must be one and think like one. But that isn't true. He is -- almost as much as Trump is! -- a creation of the media. He made money and friends by parroting right-wing stuff on talk radio. But it's an empty recitation, and he can't even connect two sets of talking points. He gives one set at a time. He can't answer questions about them. He can't explain his own motivations. He can't tell you what he THINKS if you ask for an opinion. He is EXTREMELY stupid, and he's a deer caught in the headlights when faced with a novel situation.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:23 AM on January 8 [142 favorites]


The short time left is what saves Trump, one says.

If these senators really think Trump should be removed, they should call for his resignation. Today. On national television. Trump could resign immediately; there's no time constraint holding them back from speaking publicly.

"We'd love to impeach him, really we would, but it's too late, you see... nothing we can do, sorry. Hands are tied. Of course, we won't say this in public, but it's definitely true and you should believe us."
posted by BungaDunga at 7:24 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]


On the "it was ANTIFA behind this" claims -

At least one protestor (Furry Viking Hat Guy) has actually spoken up to deny this, spurred on by indignance that "how DARE you accuse me of being antifa!"

We may not have QUITE enough time for the "enough rope" approach, but it may be a fun subplot to watch unfold.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:25 AM on January 8 [23 favorites]


The short time left is what saves Trump, one says.

What a bunch of grade-A bullshit. Congress had no problem moving quickly, once RGB died, to replace her and install a religious zealot. She hadn't even been given the dignity of burial before those venal fuckers got moving. They can act quickly, when they want to.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:27 AM on January 8 [53 favorites]


Not linking it because it doesn’t deserve the views, but there’s now a Q conspiracy theory that Ashli Babbit is alive and was a crisis actor. She literally gave her life for these people and this is how they treat her. It just makes her death even more senseless. I was raised not to use the word hate against people, but I very much hate the Q people. I hate them all.
posted by Ruki at 7:28 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


One of the responses to Maggie Haberman’s tweet points out that a few Republicans could take a longer view, that after impeachment comes the ban on running again, and that Cruz et al might welcome that decision.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:30 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


So pence really is a primative AI robot operating a madam tusauds wax statue. Nice to have my suspicions confirmed.
posted by WeekendJen at 7:30 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]




Could Donald run again?

If removed by an impeachment conviction: It depends. When impeaching someone, Congress does have the constitutional authority to disqualify that person from future office. However, there have been occasions when Congress has decided not to disqualify someone from future office.

If the president were to be impeached and convicted, his ability to run in 2024 would depend on whether Congress decided to disqualify him or not.

posted by bluesky43 at 7:30 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


FBI releases photo, offers $50k reward for suspect who placed pipe bombs in DC
posted by bluesky43 at 7:33 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


As a Canadian, I was ashamed but not terribly surprised to see a Canadian flag in that vexillogy link upthread. We're the nation where our famous Mounties are (when not actively killing marginalized folks themselves) standing by while racist mobs attack Mi'kmaq people and infrastructure.
posted by LegallyBread at 7:34 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


Cleavon MD
@Cleavon_MD
Meet Jenny Cudd from Midland Texas "WE did break down @SpeakerPelosi's office door and somebody stole her gavel and I took a picture sitting in the chair flipping off the camera and that was on Fox News"
@FBI

/these people are depraved. This woman is laugh talking the whole time in the video she apparently posted to social media. Why aren't these people being arrested?
posted by bluesky43 at 7:37 AM on January 8 [33 favorites]


One of the responses to Maggie Haberman’s tweet points out that a few Republicans could take a longer view, that after impeachment comes the ban on running again, and that Cruz et al might welcome that decision.

Yeah I’ve been mulling that over, but I think there is a fundamental prisoner’s dilemma. If you vote to disqualify him, you lose all of the cultists to a potential Republican challenger who votes not to.
posted by Room 101 at 7:37 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


Pretty incredible and yet not surprising what moves the urgency needle with these people.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:40 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


Hell, you might get more votes to disqualify from future office than you got to convict in the first place.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:40 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


> Pete Hoekstra, US ambassador to the Netherlands, offended by Dutch interviewer

Of all the people who will hopefully disappear into some deep dank obscurity with the regime change, he's right up there on my list.
posted by HFSH at 7:41 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


We need to figure out this problem in societies but we don't need to play philosophy and try to imagine the non-racist Trump voter. It's beyond fruitless.

Since we are continuing this conversation, some of us have Trump supporting neighbors. I have one right next door. He’s still hanging his “Trump 2020: Make Liberals Cry Again” flag as I type this.

When we have a huge snowfall, or I walk the dogs, or just see him out, he will occasionally engage in conversation. And this with our “Black Lives Matter” and our “We Believe Black Lives Matter - Women’s Rights etc” signs and flags out.

It doesn’t do me any good when he inevitably brings up politics to say, “you are a racist” and walk away. It doesn’t change his mind on anything. It actually only frames the encounter in the way, I think, he hopes it goes.

What do I do? I push back, gently. I focus on the economic stuff. “You realize the Republicans and Trump ensured the majority of the $2 trillion+ stimulus went to corporations and we just got $1200, right?”

“Yeah, that’s messed up.”

Obviously this isn’t verbatim but it’s damn close to our conversation this summer.. When you hit them with gentle but prodding pushback that, guess what, the GOP and Trump might not be in your corner, there are moments where their clock gears seem to remount a little bit. Does it make a difference? I think more than just saying “you’re racist” and leaving it at that. Or ignoring any sort of engagement at all because they’re hopelessly racist and why try.

The larger point is that the $2000 stimulus was DESPERATELY hoped for by the Trump base when he brought that up. That’s a knife in the side of the GOP, and the capitalist oligarchs who for years have made these people believe the government can’t do ANYTHING of value.

I think maybe there’s daylight to recognize this pandemic and it’s awful economic destruction is a really, really good chance to highlight the government can do good things, and, approached thoughtfully, to wrestle a non-significant chunk of Trump country out of the hands of the disgusting GOP forever.

I get too that he still has his flag up. It is crazy, and likely that nothing I’ve said has made any difference. But I will never believe that ignoring a human being or neighbor who wants to have a conversation - no matter how much I disagree with their politics - helps us one bit.
posted by glaucon at 7:41 AM on January 8 [52 favorites]


> Pete Hoekstra, US ambassador to the Netherlands, offended by Dutch interviewer

Of all the people who will hopefully disappear into some deep dank obscurity with the regime change, he's right up there on my list.
posted by HFSH at 7:41 AM


Agreed. and the Dutch interviewers were way to solicitous to him. What a jerk he is.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:43 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


He’s venal and relatively weak, but not stupid."

I've been following Mike Pence's career since he was a talk-radio asshole in Indiana, and I can assure you, he is extremely stupid.


Eyebrows, recall that I’m a Hoosier. I’m very familiar with Mike Dense. When I say “stupid” I mean “pointlessly self-destructive.”
posted by leotrotsky at 7:44 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]




glaucoma - The question I'd like to hear the answer to - and I don't know anyone IRL in the same way in order to ask it - is "So why do you want to make perfectly ordinary people cry? Why does that make you happy?" Not angry or accusing, just confused.
posted by Grangousier at 7:47 AM on January 8 [29 favorites]


I’ll ask him the next time I see him and message you.
posted by glaucon at 7:48 AM on January 8 [15 favorites]


Lehigh University rescinds Donald Trump’s honorary degree

In 2018, faculty voted by a wide margin to urge the Bethlehem school’s trustees to rescind the degree, calling some of Trump’s statements racist, sexist and Islamophobic, and not representative of the school’s values.

More than 80 percent of participating faculty voted “yes” on the motion, with a 296-50 vote, and more than 75 percent of eligible faculty participated. But the request was denied.

posted by Dashy at 7:49 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]


Lehigh University rescinds Donald Trump’s honorary degree

surely this
posted by lalochezia at 7:50 AM on January 8 [53 favorites]


The safest bet is not to count on Pence to do anything remotely useful. He's not that smart, and he has no principles whatsoever. His motivating principles before he was VP were basically "you ladies and brown people are too uppity and I'm going to put a stop to it, then say a Bible verse."

How about this: if he does anything except whatever Trump wants, I will personally send 100 extra bucks to my local Planned Parenthood.
posted by emjaybee at 7:55 AM on January 8 [14 favorites]


If the president were to be impeached and convicted, his ability to run in 2024 would depend on whether Congress decided to disqualify him or not.

Also, hopefully, on whether or not he's in prison.
posted by Jess the Mess at 7:58 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


That link that robbyrobs posted, dang:
“This is absolute bullshit, Totally, completely wrong,” the former Cabinet member said. “The president invites them to come to Washington, speaks to them in front of the White House and incites them to march to the Hill. And crazy Rudy Giuliani says they should do this by combat. And now they are saying it is other people? That’s crazy.”
posted by box at 8:00 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]




I took a stroll over to Parler, and "Trump was supposed to/is going to declassify everything" was a big point of discussion. That's something I hadn't heard. (Maybe because I've avoided direct exposure to Qanonery thus far.) I wonder if that has anything to do with the theft of a laptop possibly containing sensitive national security information during the Capitol break-in.
posted by clawsoon at 8:05 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


See, it's cenoxo's comment above that makes me wish we could use reaction gifs, for special occasions. A little reaction gif, as a treat!
posted by LegallyBread at 8:05 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]




I'm not normally big on schadenfreude but

‘The final betrayal’: Trump supporters denounce president on Reddit after he suddenly decries Capitol riot violence he incited

so many delicious fash tears from the quotes. i may have to lie down with a cold cloth on my forehead.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:07 AM on January 8 [29 favorites]


Not that I ever want to set eyes on Trump ever again, but I was actually kind of looking forward to seeing him at the inauguration.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:08 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


Technically the banana republics were ours, too...
posted by glaucon at 8:08 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


He's usually more into declassifying stuff by accident. Also, wow, that was in August 2019! It feels like decades ago.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:09 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


Good, we didn't want you to come anyway!

I wonder if Trump will pee all over the White House on his way out.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:09 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


I wonder if Trump will pee all over the White House on his way out.

That would be redundant.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:10 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


So I realize this is a long shot but can we discuss our political adversaries in ways that don't involve demeaning, ableist language, such as labeling people as "stupid" and the like? It does not add anything meaningful to the discussion at hand to use such language to describe people, and it actively does perpetuate harmful words. (I have worked with adults with disabilities, most with "low IQ", and it's not anyone's fault what IQ they have, how quick-witted they are or are not, not anyone's fault that they may never have a single original idea in their life, etc). I think it would be better to place emphasis on the moral weight of people's choices as opposed to the roots of their intelligence that supposedly informed those choices. Smart people can be evil, smart people can be good, etc, following this train of thought, we can take intelligence out of the equation. People of all intelligences make shitty or less shitty decisions.

I think this is pertinent to the class discussions above. As a bunch of linked articles have noted, many of these people were actually successful in their career of choice and are degreed, own businesses, hold respected positions, etc. They are people who aren't particularly marginalized who have internalized a ton of disgusting and abhorrent ideology from their TVs. People do not exist in a vacuum where solely their Meritocratic Abilities determine the outcome of their decision-making. We should honestly be looking toward the source of these repugnant IDEAS and doing less otherizing through labeling/language. We SHOULD hold individuals accountable, AND we should inspect the culture that promotes their shitty ideology.

We live in a system that rewards morally mediocre/abhorrent white men.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:11 AM on January 8 [33 favorites]


emptywheel saying a version what I've been feeling the last couple days. With all the focus on Hawley/Cruz, there's been a crucial gap in attention on Tuberville/Giuliani.

Investigate Tommy Tuberville’s Pre-Speech and Debate Actions
posted by Roach at 8:11 AM on January 8 [27 favorites]


LeHigh gave Trump his honorary degree in 1988. In 1987, it went to Bill Cosby.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:13 AM on January 8 [20 favorites]


I happened to just read this thread on twitter by Lili Saintcrow, that is relevant in the light of glaucon's neighbor.
Let me explain something to those of you who didn't grow up around violently abusive white supremacists.

*They absolutely do not believe their own bullshit*, but it's useful for them to pretend they do.
glaucon: "I get too that he still has his flag up. It is crazy, and likely that nothing I’ve said has made any difference. But I will never believe that ignoring a human being or neighbor who wants to have a conversation - no matter how much I disagree with their politics - helps us one bit."

She touches on this point.
Domestic abusers, white supremacists, and religious bigots all operate off the same thin but very useful playbook that exploits other people's politeness and (I've got to say it) "civility."

"Obama was born in Kenya." "She provoked me, I had to hit her." "Biden's followers stormed the Capitol." "It was Antifa." "I thought that black child was going to shoot me." These are all the same species of lie, and they serve the same purpose--to absolve the speaker.

My ex-husband used to repeat the Zen saying, "You cannot wake up someone who is pretending to be asleep."

You cannot engage with white supremacists by giving them the fig leaf of pretending to believe their self-serving lies.
The whole thing is definitely worth a read. For me it matches my crappy ramblings from yesterday about how being civil to white supremacists is something ingrained in a lot of us, and that once that is removed, it will be war. I think that if we come to understand that these people flying these flags know exactly what they are doing, and are putting up these lies to absolve themselves, that confrontations will begin. And whether they want that or not, maybe that's what has to happen to get us to a place where all this nonsense stops. There are so many comments and digesting news, relating news, reading comments here and elsewhere while also living life means I must apologize if I've missed anyones comments or that this has already been posted.
posted by cashman at 8:14 AM on January 8 [70 favorites]


‘The final betrayal’: Trump supporters denounce president on Reddit after he suddenly decries Capitol riot violence he incited

I didn't spend much time looking, but when I did look I saw just as many (or more) parsing his words for hope. "He didn't use the words 'I concede'." "He didn't say that it would be a transition to a new Biden administration, just that it would be a transition to a new administration. Probably means him with Flynn as VP." "He said that this is just the beginning."
posted by clawsoon at 8:14 AM on January 8 [5 favorites]


CNN: People at the US Capitol riot are being identified and losing their jobs

Sing along now!

If you're a Nazi and you're fired, it's your fault!
If you're a Nazi and you're fired, it's your fault!
If you're spotted in the mob
And you lose your fucking job
If you're a Nazi and you're fired, it's your fault!
posted by SansPoint at 8:15 AM on January 8 [146 favorites]


We should honestly be looking toward the source of these repugnant IDEAS and doing less otherizing through labeling/language.

The reason that a lot of these people manage to hold these ideas in the first place is because their business management degree didn't require any Humanities other than English 101.

So yeah, calling them "stupid" is probably a bridge too far, so should we settle on "uneducated enough that their political ideologies are not very coherent or thoughtful?"

Because you can be plenty educated and not know shit about being a decent human being.

And as for Mike Pence, specifically, I think its SUPER VALID to be questioning the level of intelligence of someone in that position of power especially when the person holding power over them is the despicable Donald Trump.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:16 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


I didn't spend much time looking, but when I did look I saw just as many (or more) parsing his words for hope.

Yeah, I've seen some of that, too. I'm still convinced their next candidate of choice is going to be a lot more media savvy and slick, but the bargaining and denial from these folks is just *chef's kiss*
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:17 AM on January 8


So yeah, calling them "stupid" is probably a bridge too far, so should we settle on "uneducated enough that their political ideologies are not very coherent or thoughtful?"

Honestly I don't think formal education has a thing to do with it. I'm a high school graduate yet somehow avoided becoming a Nazi. I think erratacorrige has it; this is a values and ethics question; not an intelligence or education question.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:20 AM on January 8 [26 favorites]


such as labeling people as "stupid" and the like?

willfully stupid, then
posted by phunniemee at 8:20 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


> "That’s crazy.”

No, that's your base. The base your party has spent decades cultivating and pandering to because you consider it politically expedient to this very day.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:20 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


Building on what erratacorrige says, in my experience many conspiracy minded people are high IQ; many high IQ people are easily played. They’re eager for pattern detection, they get tunnel vision easily, they have years of displacement and loneliness from their brain-buzzes. Not that the actual Capitol invaders seemed bright, but understand that the backing for wild and hateful nonsense is often “smart” people.
posted by argybarg at 8:22 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


Technically the banana republics were ours, too...

That this trope has become a go-to deserves examination, here’s the often timely N. Shirazi and A. Johnston, aka Citations Needed with a Newsbrief on the subject.
posted by progosk at 8:22 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


cashman: “*They absolutely do not believe their own bullshit*, but it's useful for them to pretend they do.”
If you'll allow me to trot out a hobby horse I keep on my user profile page, they're bearing false witness. (Cf. “Christians in the Hand of an Angry God,” quin, MetaFilter, 15 September 2010.)
posted by ob1quixote at 8:22 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]


Jamelle Bouie, NYT:
Nearly as shocking as the attack itself has been the response from Congress. On Wednesday night, its members resumed their count of the electoral vote and certified Joe Biden as the next president of the United States. So far so good. But then they adjourned into recess. It was Thursday afternoon before the Democratic leadership — Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the soon-to-be Senate Majority leader, Chuck Schumer — called for the president’s removal. And even then, they urged the vice president, Mike Pence, to use the 25th Amendment to do it, with impeachment as a backstop.

This is backward. A physical attack on Congress by violent Trump supporters egged on by the president demands a direct response from Congress itself. Impeachment and conviction is that response. To rely on the executive branch to get Trump out of the White House is to abdicate the legislature’s constitutional responsibility to check presidential lawbreaking.

There’s also the question of those members of Congress, like Senators Ted Cruz of Texas and Josh Hawley of Missouri, who helped bring the president’s mob into fruition by backing the effort to contest and overturn the electoral vote, an effort they carried on even after the Capitol was breached and terrorized Wednesday. Even if it’s just a motion to censure, Congress needs to act.

The alternative — to go slow, or worse, to take no action at all — will only create a sense of impunity. And American history offers ample evidence of how impunity in the face of mob violence can lead to something much worse than the chaos and mayhem on Wednesday. As it is, five people have died as a direct result of the mob attack on the Capitol.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:23 AM on January 8 [53 favorites]


re: stupid

Some people have a limited capacity for logical thought. Some people have the gift of rational thought and believe in utter bullshit anyway, and I'd call those people stupid.
posted by farlukar at 8:23 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


Just to revisit Hoekstra's previous with the press.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:24 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


every now and then, 4chan produces a gem:
imagine spending the better part of the last 5 years having your brain and ego melted by uninterrupted /pol/ exposure, flying to washington in the middle of a pandemic to hear trump whine about oprah and mike pence at a rally, marching up to congress on his orders to smash shit and then mill around aimlessly

you go home and hear that biden won anyway and all of your favorite twitter news sources named like Patriot Newsman Of the West with avatars of roman statues have posted your photo online and are labeling you a "gay communist antifa actor." then the next day the god emperor you pasted into warhammer memes puts out a video cucking himself and bending the knee. "i'm sorry, those were heinous acts! p-please let me tweet again jack!!" you can't leave dc because the airlines have dubbed you a flight risk. you can't stay because the cops are actively looking for you after one of their own died. your roommate at the only hotel that would accept you is a guy named based_kekistani1488 who wants to show you his goblin slayer torrents. the sun is going down and you're getting cold.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:25 AM on January 8 [147 favorites]


Racism makes you stupid. White supremacy makes you stupid. It doesn't matter what "IQ" you started with.
If you say three plus three doesn't equal six, that's just what the experts want you to think, you are stupid. I'd better stop before I start sounding like Jeff Foxworthy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:25 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]


CNN: People at the US Capitol riot are being identified and losing their jobs

Good. but I see three people in the CNN report. What about the rest of the thousands of seditionists?
posted by bluesky43 at 8:26 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


I was just going to post that 4chan thing! it is teh max lolz.

[if you want to start "is stupid an ableist slur" or any of these other kind of meta-arguments, then please do so in a meta. these threads move too quickly to have this kind of discussion ]
posted by lalochezia at 8:26 AM on January 8 [28 favorites]


Woah! My internet connection broke down completely, and when I got back there were 600+ comments. It's understandable, this is certainly the 9-11 of our times.
After reading all the comments and links, and a bit of news (I trust MeFi more than any media), my sense is that the DoJ knows their new bosses are on their way in, so they are taking this seriously. I'm less certain (from what I have seen) about the DoD -- if any military personal were part of this riot, they should be court-marshaled.

About the racists/Republicans. I think leadership can make a difference. I heard a Republican from Atlanta on the radio who totally denounced Trump, after the phonecall, but before the riots. He kept on saying that if he had only known this, he wouldn't have voted for Trump. We can all laugh or get angry, but the point is that he doesn't see what we see. He watches Fox News and follows like-minded friends on FB. Until Kemp and Raffensperger told him the truth, he didn't know it.

Also about the racists/Republicans and reaching across the aisle. Someone posted, I think it was in another thread, about how everyone gets all the benefits in Sweden. It's the same here in Denmark, and it means that almost everyone supports the entire social system. My kids get free education from 5-25 (or longer, if they choose to seek post-graduate education). I get free healthcare. My mum is in a heavily subsidized care home. You can't win an election here on cutting down benefits. Even tax cuts have limited support, when people can see they will lead to less welfare. So here, even the right is on the side of welfare. That still leaves racism as a political platform, and I'm not claiming this is paradise. But it makes racism harder, our former racist minister of immigration is about to be impeached, for breaching the fundamental principles of the law.

So my advice is: invite the racists inside. Get them aboard with the social and economic platforms. And keep fighting them when the racism reeks out, as it is bound to do. This is not an apology for "looking forward", I hate that. Put all the offenders in jail, including the "president".

Finally, I'm beginning to think a lot about the pundits and politicians who talk and write a lot about a "divided nation". I don't want to go into conspiracy mode, and I'm sure most are just parroting talking points that are heard everywhere. But the last few weeks I've been been asking myself "cui bono?". Apart from the media, who obviously get a lot of clicks out of division, I feel it is the right. They are the original pearl clutchers. Talking about a "divided nation" distracts from the facts of a starving nation, a unequal nation, an uneducated nation etc.
posted by mumimor at 8:27 AM on January 8 [26 favorites]


Having a lower IQ doesn't make someone bad or worse than another person as a human being, but I believe that people directing national policy and strategy should be more intelligent than average AND moral AND make good decisions. I mean the POTUS needs to make pressing and complex decisions that affect lots of lives so being a kind hearted and thoughtful person shouldn't be the only requirement. Good leaders need to think ahead to various outcomes of their decisions and have context for things and that's not easy or clear cut.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:27 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


What about the rest of the thousands of seditionists?

Oh I think we'll be seeing more of these arrests and self-ownage in the days and weeks to come, given that these fascists very helpfully uploaded photos of themselves committing a crime to greater social media
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:28 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]


Colin Powell, whitewasher of My Lai, yellowcake crisis actor for Bush at the UN, has come out to count coup on Trump by calling for him to be as honorable as Nixon was in his time of crisis.
If only Trump were as honorable as Nixon...
posted by the Real Dan at 8:30 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


Some people have a limited capacity for logical thought.

No, this is pretty much everyone.

EVERYONE.

You, me, the leftist of the left and the rightiest of the right and everyone in between. We are emotional creatures with only tiny slivers of rationality.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:30 AM on January 8 [54 favorites]


I think the time has come for the court to revisit Brandenburg vs Ohio in the era of social media and the Internet. Social media has broken the "marketplace of ideas" that underpinned the ruling. I don't think we should move too quickly though. 9-11 should have taught most of us that acting in haste after a national trauma makes things worse.
posted by interogative mood at 8:31 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


[One deleted - please don't do "here's an analogy to a different offensive thing someone might say", first, it introduces offensive things into a thread and second, it just causes a derailing debate over the analogy. Just say what you mean without the analogy.]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:32 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


I know a wide range of Trump supporters, from "Trump is taking down the global Satanic elite" to "don't like the guy but like his policies" to people who help the homeless and disadvantaged children and believe that Jesus really meant what he said about helping the poor. The chance of changing their minds about Trump, and what it would take to do it, is very different for each group.
posted by clawsoon at 8:32 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]


Also about the racists/Republicans and reaching across the aisle. Someone posted, I think it was in another thread, about how everyone gets all the benefits in Sweden. It's the same here in Denmark, and it means that almost everyone supports the entire social system. My kids get free education from 5-25 (or longer, if they choose to seek post-graduate education). I get free healthcare. My mum is in a heavily subsidized care home. You can't win an election here on cutting down benefits. Even tax cuts have limited support, when people can see they will lead to less welfare. So here, even the right is on the side of welfare. That still leaves racism as a political platform, and I'm not claiming this is paradise. But it makes racism harder, our former racist minister of immigration is about to be impeached, for breaching the fundamental principles of the law.

Unfortunately, American ExceptionalismTM applies to our racism and self-delusion too. The assbag who was pictured in Nancy Pelosi's office chair while attempting to destroy our government also applied for and received a Payroll Protection Program loan. There are uncountable more examples of people in the US receiving government benefits while virulently opposing the programs that enable them and the government itself.

One of the core principles of right-wing ideology in the US is to destroy social services, even as many of the people who support the right wing take advantage of those services. For many of them, it's as simple as "I deserve it because I'm white, but those welfare queens are leeches on the system." At least into the medium term, offering better social services, which everyone in the US will take advantage of, won't stop a significant portion of Americans from trying to burn down those services.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 8:36 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


the sun is going down and you're getting cold.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:25 AM on January 8


This post wins MeFi today. and I would add, I hope jail is the next stop.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:36 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


Justice Dept. Open to Pursuing Charges Against Trump in Inciting Riot (NYT)

“We are looking at all actors, not only the people who went into the building,” Michael Sherwin, the U.S. attorney in Washington, told reporters.

Mr. Sherwin was asked whether such targets would include Mr. Trump, who exhorted supporters during a rally near the White House, telling them that they could never “take back our country with weakness.” Propelled by Mr. Trump’s baseless claims of election irregularities, the protesters had gathered to demonstrate against Congress’s certification of Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s Electoral College victory and moved on to the Capitol after the president’s rally.

Mr. Sherwin said he stood by his statement. “We’re looking at all actors,” he said. “If the evidence fits the elements of a crime, they’re going to be charged.”
posted by jason_steakums at 8:36 AM on January 8 [16 favorites]


“The president was trying to stage a coup. There was little chance of it happening, but there was enough chance that the former defense secretaries had to put out that letter, which was the final nail through that effort. They prevented the military from being involved in any coup attempt. But instead, Trump tried to incite it himself,” said Fiona Hill, Trump’s former top Russia adviser. “This could have turned into a full-blown coup had he had any of those key institutions following him. Just because it failed or didn’t succeed doesn’t mean it wasn’t real.”
posted by dhruva at 8:41 AM on January 8 [40 favorites]




I took a stroll over to Parler

One does not simply stroll into Parler.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 8:43 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]


Costumed Capitol Rioter Is Son Of Brooklyn Supreme Court Judge:
His brother, Nachman Mostofsky, is the vice president of the South Brooklyn Conservative Club, and an elected district leader in the borough, who claims to have connections with high-ranking members of the Trump administration. Nachman also attended the rally on Thursday, but said he left before the group entered the capitol.

"My brother did nothing illegal," Nachman told Gothamist. "He definitely was not part of the riot." Asked how he ended up in the Capitol building, Nachman said his brother was "pushed inside."

"You’re full of shit. You’re a dishonest person. My brother went as a citizen of America," Nachman continued. "You find me one [Black Lives Matter] riot or one Antifa riot from over the summer that didn’t have way more damage."
To me, this is the most dangerous and disgusting whataboutism that the right is going to yell. If you hear it, know that the person uttering it is not to be trusted, ever, and will never offer an honest debate.
posted by Catblack at 8:43 AM on January 8 [38 favorites]


Trump says he won't attend Joe Biden's inauguration.

Not even as a human shield? I mean, he'd be in front of Biden. He'd love that!
posted by Thorzdad at 8:45 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


In a conversation, I was wondering like, what was the seditionists' plan upon storming the capitol building? Like, what if they had in fact slaughtered all the people working there and overtaken the reigns, then...what? All that would need to happen to end a sit-in type coup would be for the power to be turned off, any food supplies to run short, and the smell of decay in ADDITION to the rest of government not located in that particular building on that day to mobilize law enforcement to swarm the building and arrest everyone inside?

I guess my question is, do these people realize that you simply can't take power out of people's hands by killing them/bullying them and that our democracy (whatever we have of it), works because it is flexible and we won't answer to people who haven't been officially elected? WHAT WAS THE PLAN I just don't get it
posted by erattacorrige at 8:45 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


Decoding the flags and banners seen at the Capitol Hill insurrection
/u/Tengri_99/ points out that someone brought a Kazakhstan flag to the storming of the U. S. Capitol on Wednesday.
/u/daniyalkan/ explains that there are a lot of Kazakhs and Uyghurs in the United States. Many of them respond strongly to Trump's anti-People's Republic of China rhetoric, not understanding they are supporting a different group of Fascists.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 8:47 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


erattacorrige: Sowing terror is a goal in itself.
posted by SansPoint at 8:48 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


I guess my question is, do these people realize that you simply can't take power out of people's hands by killing them/bullying them and that our democracy (whatever we have of it), works because it is flexible and we won't answer to people who haven't been officially elected? WHAT WAS THE PLAN I just don't get it
posted by erattacorrige at 8:45 AM on January 8


Giuliani's voicemail to Tuberville suggests that the "plan" involved extending the timeline until further "evidence" could be produced that would stop the Certification for good.
posted by Roach at 8:48 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]




I guess my question is, do these people realize that you simply can't take power out of people's hands by killing them/bullying them and that our democracy (whatever we have of it), works because it is flexible and we won't answer to people who haven't been officially elected?

No. They clearly and obviously don’t. They don’t understand how any of this works. Neither does the President. It’s all posturing, bullying, and violence. They don’t understand governance involves governing. It’s why the only legislation passed in four years was a tax cut.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:49 AM on January 8 [17 favorites]


Someone pointed out that the death toll from this insurrection is now higher than the death toll was at Benghazi™
posted by SoberHighland at 8:50 AM on January 8 [19 favorites]


Sadly, Jacqueline, the end of that 4chan snippet is the exact moment when the protagonist would really ramp up his loyalty.
posted by argybarg at 8:53 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


A lot of the QAnon types thought that once they stormed the castle Capitol, Trump would do something to reveal how evil everyone else is. The Storm would happen and the kidnapped children would be saved.
posted by harriet vane at 8:54 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


WHAT WAS THE PLAN I just don't get it
Carhartt rioters' plan probably similar to the Brooks Brothers rioters' plan. The latter succeeded because their branding was better.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:55 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


To answer your question: The far right Trump insurgency just scored a huge propaganda coup

Biden was already planning on pursuing far right extremist. Here’s hoping he and Justice and FBI come down like the wrath of God.

Disrupt their funding, disrupt their communications, pursue and incarcerate them like the terrorists they are.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:57 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


In a conversation, I was wondering like, what was the seditionists' plan upon storming the capitol building?

They didn't have a plan, and didn't think they needed one. Trump had already provided step one of the plan, go to the capitol, and said he would be there with them. So they expected he'd provide step two, but then he was a no-show and they had to improvise instead.
posted by FishBike at 8:58 AM on January 8 [19 favorites]


Anyone got a transcript of the Trump video? I don't want to hear his voice unless I absolutely have to.

It's right here.

Oh - you meant this one...


It’s early where I am, but the brief confusion over which tape had me reflecting on the series of tiny steps in four years from “there might be a pee tape” to “well, yes, he sent an angry mob to attack congress.”

See also, “He used campaign funds to pay for a life-sized oil painting of himself for a club,” gradually incrementally shifting to, “Yeah, so he let 350,000 Americans die of a virus.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:59 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]


In a conversation, I was wondering like, what was the seditionists' plan upon storming the capitol building?

I honestly expected to see the Capitol on fire eventually.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:00 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]




Yeah, not to diminish the seriousness of all this, but Wednesday kind of feels like when that pizzagate guy stormed Comet Ping Pong with an assault rifle, times a million.

That’s a serious mistake. These guys planted bombs, came with zip ties, and planning on executing the Vice President. They are significantly disconnected from reality and there’s *millions* of them. Hitler was a joke until he wasn’t.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:00 AM on January 8 [74 favorites]


In a conversation, I was wondering like, what was the seditionists' plan upon storming the capitol building?

If there had been mass murders of politicians, staff and journalists streamed on the internet, coupled with a delayed or denied national guard response, there would have been chaos and demoralization all around this country on a scale far worse than 9/11. More, other militia groups would have seized the opportunity to kill other government workers. The clearest source of government leadership would be....Trump, because he wasn't dead.

Remember how things were after 9/11? People were in a stone cold panic all over the nation.

Like, I cannot even begin to convey how bad it would have been if things had gone much further on the 6th. It would have been sort of likely, in fact, that Trump would have a second term simply by default - the chaos would be such and the lines of succession so unclear that many people would have accepted it.

Beyond that, what would all this have done to vaccine distribution and pandemic relief? The country would be frozen for weeks at best.

This was a chaos operation - the hope was to plausible-deniability themselves into creating enough disaster and violence that events would break their way. I've seen a lot of people saying "but you can't take over the government by taking over the Capitol" but folks seem not to get that government is like money - it's a collective fantasy and once the fantasy shatters a lot of things collapse.
posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on January 8 [112 favorites]


Trump's logic is always about sowing confusion and exploiting any opportunities that are presented by that to grab some kind of power. It's like a blitzkrieg on norms, where you break rules and while your opponent is stammering how you aren't supposed to do that, you can use their defensiveness to paint them as weak and illegitimate.

The Germans used the blitzkrieg in their response to D-Day, but lacked the fuel and supplies to really exploit any breakthroughs that they made. In the meantime the Allies learned to adapt by letting them charge, run out of breath, and then encircle them at the Falaise Gap and destroy those who were trapped.

I could only hope that this will repeat that pattern. Let them have made that charge and expose themselves to the camera thinking they all had immunity and privilege, then followup and prosecute all of those fuckers.
posted by bl1nk at 9:05 AM on January 8 [13 favorites]




It's like the absolute least important thing right now, but Helen Rosner is having a wonderful conversation on twitter re: "woke" corporate brands and how they respond to the moment. I don't know how to reliably link to a twitter thread otherwise I'd make a separate FPP on the topic.
posted by Think_Long at 9:06 AM on January 8 [4 favorites]


“Platforms Must Pay for Their Role in the Insurrection,” Roger McNamee, Wired, 07 January 2021
posted by ob1quixote at 9:08 AM on January 8 [17 favorites]


Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube have spent years fomenting and enabling yesterday’s violence at the Capitol. Policymakers need to do something about it.

And Reddit. Don't forget that fucking cryptofascist Steve Huffman!!!
posted by deadaluspark at 9:09 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


the series of tiny steps in four years from “there might be a pee tape” to “well, yes, he sent an angry mob to attack congress.”

See also, “He used campaign funds to pay for a life-sized oil painting of himself for a club,” gradually incrementally shifting to, “Yeah, so he let 350,000 Americans die of a virus.”


...

Shudder...

Wow. That was an extremely chilling and effective quick summation of the media consumption experience for the past five years.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:10 AM on January 8 [22 favorites]


I don't know how to reliably link to a twitter thread

Not a big Twitter person, so forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like people use ThreadReader for that.
posted by box at 9:11 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


I mean, I don't think I've been as panicked in my life as when it came over the twitter that the national guard wasn't coming. That was when I thought the whole thing was going to work.

And imagine that the national guard doesn't show, there's a massacre at the capitol and then the VA guard arrives and has to shoot it out with the people inside the capitol - more murder, more blood, and what if there's a conflict between the VA guard and the DC guard?

None of this was impossible. Basically it didn't happen IMO because:
1. Actually planning this in detail with a large number of people would have required shattering the "I'm just a humble patriot going to a protest" mindset necessary to keep your average affluent white dude using PTO onside. So they weren't coordinated and there weren't enough people involved who were really ready to deal with gunfire
2. The evacuation plans worked and were not well known outside the building
3. In the last instance the cops shot that woman.

I think Americans tend to underestimate government in every respect. If there were chaos and murder in the capitol, yes, it would not literally destroy all the economic and political ties in the rest of the country and in the long, long term people would carry on, but the immediate fear and uncertainty would be absolutely disastrous. The stability of the government is really,really important to the stability of society right now - this is not the way it has to be or the way it's always been, but currently if there's blood and fire in DC, we're all in trouble.
posted by Frowner at 9:11 AM on January 8 [59 favorites]


I'm surprised (and then again not surprised) by the minimal coverage about the capitol police officer who passed away. Seems the outrage over attacking the police only applies when it is inflicted at protests by the left.
posted by unid41 at 9:12 AM on January 8 [14 favorites]


To answer your question: The far right Trump insurgency just scored a huge propaganda coup
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:49 AM on January 8


Only if there is no accounting and the media buys into and perpetuates the myth of trump and trumpism (does not tell the truth about what happened and why). Note that the media circus has turned now to the failure of the police rather than making the perpetrators accountable.
posted by bluesky43 at 9:13 AM on January 8


WHAT WAS THE PLAN I just don't get it

This is where the danger of Qanon and similar meta conspiracy theories comes in. They are absolutely sure that Trump is secretly jailing elite pedophiles worldwide. Or they believe that he's going to declassify the JFK assassination and UFOs. Whatever they believe, they can find a part of the conspiracy that validates their new ideology.

Central to the meta conspiracies is a special day where the "truth" comes out, and Trump finally goes public with what's really been happening. With the clock counting down, and both Trump and the true believers getting increasingly desperate to save their entire identities from impending reality, it's a dangerous time, and not just until the inauguration. After Trump leaves the White House, there will be millions of people looking to find a new branch of the conspiracy to attach themselves too, and plenty of charlatans willing to sell them another new identity.
posted by nicoffeine at 9:13 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


Oh man, I agree, Frowner. That was the worst moment. I was not sure Pence had the courage to carry on with his position. But out of courage or plain spite, he did.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:13 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


WHAT WAS THE PLAN I just don't get it

Judging from some of their posts on social media, it sounds like they thought their actions would provide Trump with cover to swoop in and declare martial law or something. Then they could slink off and enjoy the chaos knowing they "stopped the steal." I don't think they intended to replace Congress, just delegitimize it in a very public and visible way if it wasn't doing what Trump wanted it to do.
posted by Avelwood at 9:13 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


I've actually been somewhat curious as to whether any classified, secret or top secret information was exposed during this event. Presumably the most sensitive documents are stored in safes on encrypted drives or can only be accessed in the secure briefing rooms that have access to the various secret and top secret military and intelligence networks and I haven't heard any report of any of those rooms being breached but it does seem like at least some of the Congress members with that level of access had their offices ransacked so who knows. Seems like any computer that the insurrectionists had access to has to be seen as potentially suspect now.
posted by vuron at 9:16 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]


> Carhartt rioters' plan probably similar to the Brooks Brothers rioters' plan. The latter succeeded because their branding was better.

One of those brands is a hollow shell of a once-quality garment company now owned by Simon Properties Authentic Retail Concepts Group. The other is a continuous family business since 1889 which still makes slightly overpriced but durable work wear.

Another reminder that the working class are not the enemy, here. Please.
posted by thoroughburro at 9:16 AM on January 8 [53 favorites]


I've actually been somewhat curious as to whether any classified, secret or top secret information was exposed during this event.

Turns out there was: Merkley says Capitol rioters stole laptop from his office
posted by jquinby at 9:18 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]


WHAT WAS THE PLAN I just don't get it

They assumed the Q army would be there to give orders (possibly Trump himself leading the charge) and then when it was just them and they couldn't find any senators or congresspeople to assault/kidnap they were completely at a loss
posted by dis_integration at 9:20 AM on January 8 [6 favorites]


You guys, this is a little bit not good. They're calling for another go round on the 19th "in numbers no....police agency can match". I don't think they have those kinds of numbers at this point, but it's still pretty bad.
posted by Frowner at 9:20 AM on January 8 [28 favorites]


Like, what if they had in fact slaughtered all the people working there and overtaken the reigns, then...what?

The second, third, and fourth person in line to the Presidency were in the building. The fifth in line is the Secretary of State. If the count hadn't been completed by Jan 20th, the Presidency would devolve down the line of succession, skipping Pence. No President Biden; we'd get Acting President Pompeo unless Trump fired him first.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:21 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


I think they were mainly thinking of themselves in the Boston Tea Party sense or maybe the storming of the Bastille if they are more in touch with other world events. However it does seem like more than a few of these people seem to think that they are going to go full Reign of Terror where they are going to have show trials and then execute these "traitors" who have conspired to "steal the election" from God Emperor Trump. They seem to be more focused on the lynchmob type of justice but maybe because that's more American than carting around a guillotine to your regularly scheduled Trump rally.
posted by vuron at 9:22 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


CNN is announcing that Asst. House Speaker Katherine Clark has said that if, as anticipated, Pence and the Cabinet won't invoke the 25th Amendment, impeachment proceedings will begin next week.

I don't usually go off on Dems for not taking action, because I recognize that they don't have political Green Lantern rings and just willing stuff doesn't mean you can actually get the votes, and it usually isn't worth it to waste time if you don't. But I recommend reading the threads I linked. There were people in that crowd that absolutely intended to capture and likely execute Pelosi and the current and next vice-presidents of the US and any other Congresspeople they could get their hands on.

Donald Trump tried to have you killed, Nancy Pelosi. And you are responding with "maybe we'll take up the idea of impeachment a week from now."
posted by tavella at 9:22 AM on January 8 [34 favorites]


the whole thing is just so stupid and dumb but the true capper is that the criminals all documented their crimes so extensively and thoroughly that Stringer Bell's head would explode

No idea what a Stringer bell is but their self-documentation reminds me of the filming of Jewish massacres by the SS. In both cases, they believed they were being heroic.
posted by Rash at 9:26 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


Last thread someone called for an ultimatum, and that's her ultimatum. A week. That gives her staffers/Nadler + staffers time to draw up ironclad articles of impeachment, and judging by the responses of other D congresscritters, those will go straight to the floor. Next week is only 3 days away people, so I would take a deep breath out.

I'm not saying Pelosi is perfect, or that the last impeachment proceedings didn't have problems - Nadler in particular butt fumbled the proceedings in the beginning - but I trust her acumen on this. The reason Pelosi is where she's at is that she knows exactly how to count the votes.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 9:26 AM on January 8 [18 favorites]


You guys, this is a little bit not good. They're calling for another go round on the 19th

Saw similar suggested earlier as well: Dr. Jen Golbeck - @jengolbeck
I study the dark, murky places on the internet. The people who acted yesterday are planning more, and with more violence, on January 19 and 20. Let no one say they couldn't have foreseen it. Be prepared this time.

The organizations in charge of protecting DC and government institutions should have all the resources and intel to get them all the information they need about what's being planned for 1/19. It is publicly accessible. But if you don't know where to find it, I'm here to help

For those of you asking, I'm working to pull together some posts that I'll aggregate & share in a Medium post (hopefully tomorrow). A lot of the forums that have this stuff are hard to search, so it's more work than just a quick search in the right place...
It is concerning because for the hardcore fash taking the Capitol building was a definite, if alloyed, propaganda win, and potentially one they can use to rally others for another attack.
posted by Buntix at 9:28 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


I do think that asking what the rioters plans were is maybe overindexing on the rioters being any more than tools of their cult.

What was Giuliani, Ted Cruz, Hawley, and Trump's plan in planning this conspiracy and using their techniques in stochastic terrorism to instigate a proxy coup? That's the more relevant question.
posted by bl1nk at 9:28 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


Yeah I really don't understand what is happening inside Speaker Pelosi's brain when she calls up military leaders to plan how to stop Trump from accessing the nuclear codes while also saying maybe we'll do something about removing him next week? Like....what? Really?

It is not Speaker Pelosi's job to work around the office of the President to determine whether or not the CiC has access to the nuclear codes. It absolutely is her job to lead from the front on impeaching and removing the President immediately. I don't understand the thought process here.
posted by lazaruslong at 9:28 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


Stringer Bell was a character on The Wire, a truly outstanding HBO series about the war on drugs. In one scene he famously attempts to form the local dealers into a sort of cartel only to discover someone is taking notes during the meeting.
posted by jquinby at 9:30 AM on January 8 [11 favorites]


Don't think anyone has linked this piece with eyewitness accounts from three NYT journalists who were inside the Capitol building. From photographer Erin Schaff:

Suddenly, two or three men in black surrounded me and demanded to know who I worked for. Grabbing my press pass, they saw that my ID said The New York Times and became really angry. They threw me to the floor, trying to take my cameras. I started screaming for help as loudly as I could. No one came. People just watched. At this point, I thought I could be killed and no one would stop them. They ripped one of my cameras away from me, broke a lens on the other and ran away.
...
I ran to the third floor, opened the first door I saw and hid in a hallway. ... But then the police found me. I told them that I was a photojournalist and that my pass had been stolen, but they didn’t believe me. They drew their guns, pointed them and yelled at me to get down on my hands and knees.
posted by neroli at 9:32 AM on January 8 [25 favorites]


Live Updates: Pelosi Threatens Impeachment if Trump Doesn’t Resign ‘Immediately’ (NYT)

Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California said on Friday that the House would move to impeach President Trump over his role in inciting a violent mob attack on the Capitol if he did not resign “immediately,” appealing to Republicans to join the push to force him from office.

In a letter to members of the House, the speaker invoked the resignation of Richard M. Nixon amid the Watergate scandal, when Republicans prevailed upon the president to resign and avoid the ignominy of an impeachment, calling Mr. Trump’s actions a “horrific assault on our democracy.”

“Today, following the president’s dangerous and seditious acts, Republicans in Congress need to follow that example and call on Trump to depart his office — immediately,” she wrote. “If the president does not leave office imminently and willingly, the Congress will proceed with our action.”
posted by bluesky43 at 9:32 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


You guys, this is a little bit not good. They're calling for another go round on the 19th

There were also tons of reports on Tuesday of rioters walking away and saying to cops, "we're going to be back and we're going to be better armed."

As mentioned upthread, the Secret Service just posted their own "fuck around and find out" message about the inauguration.

The Capitol Police had responsibility for the Capitol and they failed, but I don't think the Secret Service are going to look at this and set themselves up for a repeat failure during what is essentially their version of the Met Gala/Oscar Night/Super Bowl. I expect that Biden, Kamala and others are having very intense conversations about what the Secret Service are planning for and how deep their contingencies go.
posted by bl1nk at 9:36 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


It is not Speaker Pelosi's job to work around the office of the President to determine whether or not the CiC has access to the nuclear codes. It absolutely is her job to lead from the front on impeaching and removing the President immediately. I don't understand the thought process here.

Asking the military to please take away the nuclear codes amounts to asking for a soft coup.

Reminding the military to refuse illegal orders to launch is a different thing, but removing command authority from the President is very much not Mark Milley's job, and she should know better than to ask.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:36 AM on January 8 [12 favorites]


I am not sure 25ing or impeaching or resigning is going to shut down the upcoming troubles.

And that's what's scary. These people have been waiting to pop for at least four years and this is their biggest symbolic chance.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:38 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


omfg nancy, pence won't take your calls, trump won't resign. do your job.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:38 AM on January 8 [34 favorites]


This is why the National Guard didn’t respond to the attack on the Capitol

If that reporting is accurate it's a very important article to read right now. It sounds like the Capitol Police requested "FBI tactical forces" ahead of time but not the Guard even though the DC mayor requested and got the Guard well ahead of time, and the wait was a bureaucratic thing about seeing if the Guard needed explicit permission from higher up to change their mission to assisting the Capitol Police.

Did whatever lackluster security planning at the Capitol involve worries about DOD troops on site, while the FBI was deemed ok to work with? That does square with every living former SecDef putting out that ominous op ed a few days before about how the military has no role in settling this dispute.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:41 AM on January 8


It looks like many of the rioters were run-of-the-mill hardcore MAGA types, just happy to run riot in the hopes that this would somehow trigger [underpants gnomes] to flip the election.

However there was apparently also a small cadre of better-prepared MAGAs with weapons, zip-ties, and a plan; they may well have been planning to kill the VP or Pelosi or Schumer (or AOC or Omar or Pressley). They were armed, wearing tactical gear, and behaved in a more coordinated manner.

I suspect if anyone in type 1 had found Pelosi she would have been at risk: but type 2 may well have executed her on the spot. We are extremely lucky that no lawmakers were killed.
posted by suelac at 9:41 AM on January 8 [58 favorites]


It absolutely is her job to lead from the front on impeaching and removing the President immediately. I don't understand the thought process here.

Her thought process is probably "there is a zero percent chance we can get 66 votes in the Senate for removal, absent further developments, however, keeping threat of holding an impeachment open for a few more days holds some non-zero value for me/the Democratic party/the Republic".
posted by skewed at 9:42 AM on January 8 [16 favorites]


Back in November right after the election, Trump executed his purge of military leadership. At the time some folks took it as a sign that Trump would use the military to execute a coup.

Now, it turns out, that wasn't quite right. The plan wasn't for the military to stand up. The plan was for the military to stand down while Trump's civilian Nazi brown shirts took over the government.

The mob had already stormed the the capital two hours earlier, was at the very last barricaded door separating the mob from members of congress, the woman had already tried to jump through the broken window and over the barricade and was shot dead. And not until then, hours after the initial attack, did the DoD give permission for the Nation Guard to be deployed.

It is quite telling that Schumer and Pelosi were desperately calling the governor of Maryland for assistance because they knew that assistance was not coming from the DC National Guard under Trump's control. They understood the coup in execution.
posted by JackFlash at 9:42 AM on January 8 [66 favorites]


The novel The Turner Diaries is a work of fiction about the aftermath of the an American race-war where the Nazi terrorists win. I fully believe a whole bunch of those folks who assaulted the Capitol Building where fully hoping to see exactly that kicked off.

“I read the most hateful book ever written” is a video wherein someone else takes the hit for us and explains what it is these fascists fantasize about.

TTD is not worth reading, it’s a N*zi race-war & terrorism fantasy with all the detailed vileness you expect. If there is any value in watching someone else who can now never scrub that shit from his mind, it is in actually getting an understanding of what these people aspire to.

The “Beerhall Putsch” (also a failure) was 10 years before Hitler’s Chancellorship.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:44 AM on January 8 [16 favorites]


After the failed 1923 Beerhall Putsch, the establishment wrote off Hitler and his followers as idiots and proceeded to ignore them, they carried on, continued to be underestimated by the establishment and eventually took power. In the 70s and 80s we had emerging extreme right wing organisations in the UK, they seemed to collapse under the weight of their own infighting but eventually became UKIP and the Brexit Party.

Your own rightwing goons have to be dealt with firmly and dismantled or placed back in the stone age otherwise this is never going away. Perhaps now is the time to declare martial law, invite in UN peacekeepers and purge your police forces and military. When these people come back they will have learnt from their mistakes.
posted by epo at 9:45 AM on January 8 [72 favorites]


I suspect if anyone in type 1 had found Pelosi she would have been at risk:

I would not be anywhere so confident; mobs can work each other up very quickly. You don't have to be ex-military to smash someone's head in with a fire extinguisher.
posted by tavella at 9:46 AM on January 8 [7 favorites]


Not that I ever want to set eyes on Trump ever again, but I was actually kind of looking forward to seeing him at the inauguration.

The link describe's W's reception at Obama's inauguration and subsequent final departure on Marine One but I'd really like that latter, traditional courtesy being withdrawn in this case and instead, as someone proposed in a previous thread, his being abruptly pushed out of a limo somewhere in DC with no recourse but walking to a Metro station.
posted by Rash at 9:46 AM on January 8 [10 favorites]


Trump should be flown to the Sonoran Desert and only given the opportunity to reenter the US by climbing over his wall. Without food or water.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:50 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]


What I find kind of puzzling (in a "the mind fixates on something odd to shield itself from horror" way) is that woman who climbed in was a military veteran who had to know she was going to be shot. Either she was like one of those ancient berserkers high on her own supply or that's what she wanted to happen. Probably didn't give it much thought at the time though.

Just something about a person who was in the military for awhile disregarding the direct orders to stop or be shot disturbs me.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:50 AM on January 8 [24 favorites]


I am not sure 25ing or impeaching or resigning is going to shut down the upcoming troubles.


The coup attempt is still ongoing. They're just regrouping. Republican leadership is looking the best way to direct the mob next. It's going to be most dangerous until the 20th, but if Biden doesn't come down hard and Republicans punished for their treasonous behavior, 2021 is just going to be a year of increasing violence against our government.

Individual Republican members of Congress may be angered that they're targeted, but the party as a whole would like to see the coup succeed, and their own culpability obscured by people in fur capes and MAGA hats.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:52 AM on January 8 [19 favorites]


I'm sorry, thoroughburro. It pained me to type the name because I have what amounts to pepe le pew eyes for Carhartt as it was when I first began to notice it. The brand got discovered at some point and is now not what it was at all, whether it's on the rack at Tractor Supply or on insurrectionists with weaponized flags. It seems to have suffered a fate different from Filson's but just as weird.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:53 AM on January 8 [1 favorite]


One of the reasons I think why the Capitol isn't as well prepared for an attack as the White House is that Congress realistically has at least one representative of everyone, unlike the President for whom 70+ million people voted against. An attack on the Capitol says "even the person I elected doesn't represent me".
posted by meowzilla at 9:53 AM on January 8


Perhaps now is the time to declare martial law, invite in UN peacekeepers and purge your police forces and military. When these people come back they will have learnt from their mistakes.

They've been dreaming of going all Red Dawn on UN troops for decades. I don't think this will serve the lesson you're hoping for.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:53 AM on January 8 [14 favorites]


Every single time the Democrats move slowly or not at all or make vague threats, I continue to think "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb."
Look, I know you probably can't get anyone to 25th him or impeach him officially. BUT TRY ANYWAY AT LEAST TO MAKE A POINT.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:54 AM on January 8 [33 favorites]


Advertising online that you are going back for a repeat performance with more added threats of violence is definitely fuck around and find out territory especially if it's in conjunction with a threat on the inauguration.

Personally I'd rather them move the inauguration into a more controlled facility and just have it live streamed in an abundance of caution but I also understand that it's important to not back down to the threats of domestic terrorists and they have professionals in charge of security at these sorts of events but let's be honest there were presumably professionals in charge on the 6th at the Capitol and that that didn't work out well even if it's pretty clear that the Administration was intentionally hampering an effective and timely response to the threat.
posted by vuron at 9:54 AM on January 8 [2 favorites]


I mean, vet here, people in the military are trained to disregard being sho