Evidence,

August 8, 2002 7:43 AM

Evidence, ex memepool.
posted by engelr (12 comments total)

The Memory Hole is a pretty good site, discussed in another context two days ago. Reminds me of a more political version of the Smoking Gun. There's also some interesting resources at the University of Missouri's Freedom of Information Center. Read the FOIA, the law that makes some of this possible, and find out how to make your own information requests.

Was there a particular item that you wanted to discuss?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:58 AM on August 8, 2002

Oh, and cryptome is a pretty good site for thise kind of stuff, too.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:05 AM on August 8, 2002

monju, did you read that scary FBI bot stuff at the bottom of cryptome? Is it even safe to try downloading any of that without being recorded by something?
posted by amberglow at 8:15 AM on August 8, 2002

You should also check out FAIR. Not quite the same thing, but based on many of the same underlying issues...
posted by Fabulon7 at 8:17 AM on August 8, 2002

monju, did you read that scary FBI bot stuff at the bottom of cryptome? Is it even safe to try downloading any of that without being recorded by something?

My understanding of the warning given there is that a number of government agencies monitor the content of the page, by repetitively downloading the archives and checking for changes. However, there is no indication that any government agency is actually monitoring the traffic at the site. Monitoring of the traffic to and from the site would require some sort of Echelon-type system, which is a project I just don't think the FBI or the CIA have the capability to undertake at this point. If you are worried about that kind of thing, you can use one of the numerous mirrors of the site, and hope that they're not all monitored.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:24 AM on August 8, 2002

Reading the FBI documents on Columbine is interesting. What I found insightful was not necessarily the events of Columbine itself (horrific) but the methods used to investigate and what not. (Emphasis on things like having been informed on the name of the person conducting the interview, etc.) It is interesting to see what they put emphasis on, and find interesting themselves.
posted by jmccorm at 8:28 AM on August 8, 2002

"Monitoring of the traffic to and from the site would require some sort of Echelon-type system, which is a project I just don't think the FBI or the CIA have the capability to undertake at this point."

Slight clarification - Monitoring the traffic would require access to the server logs and a text editor. This is quite easy and ISPs turn logs over to the FBI with some regularity. You can even suck the logs into Excel and do advanced data mining.

Translation - It's easy and is most certainly happening.

I've written programs for the servers we run at work that will spit out a handy table of who went where when and for how long. You only need Echelon if you want to monitor *everything*, and there's no need for that. The FBI doesn't care what you do on Yahoo and CNN, they care what you do on cryptome. That's a much easier parsing problem.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:52 AM on August 8, 2002

Thanks for the clarification, y6y6y6. After I posted and had thought about it for a minute, I thought that might be the case. I guess if all the FBI wants is a traffic report, it probably isn't to tough to get. I guess what I have a harder time believing is that they're interested enough in the traffic at cryptome to actually be monitoring it all the time and connecting the traffic patterns to actual people. My objection, now that I think about it, is more about manpower than computer power.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:04 AM on August 8, 2002

The fluroide article is interesting. And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids... have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol?...Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? Fluoridation of water?... fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face."
posted by stbalbach at 9:22 AM on August 8, 2002

I guess what I have a harder time believing is that they're....connecting the traffic patterns to actual people.

I agree. Maybe a more plausible hypothesis is if they have a suspect, and then get his ISP's traffic logs so they can trace his internet behavior.
posted by Modem Ovary at 9:29 AM on August 8, 2002

Slight clarification - Monitoring the traffic would require access to the server logs and a text editor. This is quite easy and ISPs turn logs over to the FBI with some regularity. You can even suck the logs into Excel and do advanced data mining.

which is what anonymizing redirectors are for. but then again, you have to trust the redirector isn't a front (or provides logs to) security agencies.

[modem ovary] - I agree. Maybe a more plausible hypothesis is if they have a suspect, and then get his ISP's traffic logs so they can trace his internet behavior.

zero knowledge has a terrific product that encrypted from your pc to their servers, so your isp couldn't determine anything. unfortunately, they no longer offer that product.
[insert your own conspiracy theory as to why, here]
posted by lescour at 10:18 AM on August 8, 2002

Well, there's always a weak link where the ISP is concerned.

Even cable ISPs -- on which users are far less likely to switch IPs (than dialups) -- often don't bother to log more than two weeks worth of IP addressing information. If the traffic watchers can't get that information within that timeframe, then they'll never be able to prove a particular person using a given ISP was responsible for traffic to a given site.

And, as lescour mentioned, there are numerous other ways around surveillance.

Incidentally, idzap.com still offers full encryption while you're browsing (through SSL). Not even your ISP will know where you're going.
posted by Kikkoman at 10:39 AM on August 8, 2002