This Face Mask Mistake is Worse Than No Mask at All
January 22, 2021 4:16 PM Subscribe
"Researchers found that people emit more of the COVID-19 virus when breathing through their noses than through their mouths. " "Since mask-wearing is a two-way street—we wear them to protect ourselves from inhaling the virus and to shield others from virus we may unwittingly be transmitting as we exhale—letting a mask slip below the nose is a double failure."
Also related (mildly NSFW hastily-scribbled cartoon)
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:45 PM on January 22, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:45 PM on January 22, 2021 [6 favorites]
Is Mask-Slipping the New Manspreading? (NYT)
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:50 PM on January 22, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:50 PM on January 22, 2021 [16 favorites]
On a more helpful note, I wear really huge masks that cover my face straight up to the point where they're kinda poking me in the eyes. I never have them falling off my nose that way.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:53 PM on January 22, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:53 PM on January 22, 2021 [12 favorites]
Having travelled recently, omfg the nose maskers frustrated me as much as the no maskers. Why is it so hard? Foggy glasses isn't even an excuse, few were wearing glasses.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:05 PM on January 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:05 PM on January 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
I just started wearing KN95s too. Aside from the fit being better, I think it's helping me be less irritated with the no-maskers and the people doing what my friend calls "dicknosing it," since the KN95 protects me from what they're exhaling better. (I'm still really upset with them, but it doesn't feel as personal or immediate or make me want to yell at them, which is good because yelling at them would not be productive or wise.)
posted by needs more cowbell at 5:14 PM on January 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 5:14 PM on January 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
Foggy glasses isn't even an excuse
"Simply twist the loops once and put them over your ears (they’ll form a figure eight when viewed from the side). Twisting the loops puts slight downward pressure on the top part of the mask, redirecting your breath so it doesn’t flow up into your eyes. Pinch the mask over the bridge of your nose so it fits comfortably."
A gas station employee told me about this during the first spring lockdown, and it has helped immensely ever since.
posted by rozcakj at 5:14 PM on January 22, 2021 [13 favorites]
"Simply twist the loops once and put them over your ears (they’ll form a figure eight when viewed from the side). Twisting the loops puts slight downward pressure on the top part of the mask, redirecting your breath so it doesn’t flow up into your eyes. Pinch the mask over the bridge of your nose so it fits comfortably."
A gas station employee told me about this during the first spring lockdown, and it has helped immensely ever since.
posted by rozcakj at 5:14 PM on January 22, 2021 [13 favorites]
Twisting the loops also creates more of an opening between your face and your mask on the sides and reduces the efficacy, as I understand it.
I work in a hospital and I am astounded daily by the number of doctors with their noses hanging out of their masks.
posted by obfuscation at 5:24 PM on January 22, 2021 [11 favorites]
I work in a hospital and I am astounded daily by the number of doctors with their noses hanging out of their masks.
posted by obfuscation at 5:24 PM on January 22, 2021 [11 favorites]
Serious question: IS the N95 shortage over? I thought medical professionals still cannot get enough, to this day, much less anyone else.
I found K's online yesterday but they were selling out fast and I just got 10.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:33 PM on January 22, 2021 [15 favorites]
I found K's online yesterday but they were selling out fast and I just got 10.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:33 PM on January 22, 2021 [15 favorites]
Honestly! I mean, the story is we had the first lock down to give us time to build and distribute safety equipment, training contract tracers, etc., so we could use that equipment and training to open up again. But instead.... we just.... pretended it would go away. And here we are.
So I realized that and purchased a 30 pack of KN-95 masks. They fit well and are burgundy, grey, and black with no logos.
I think they are re-usable. A pdf I read earlier today said they should be swapped out every day with a minimum 4-day rotation. But, I'm not sure for how long.
They are much more difficult to breath through than the cloth masks I've been using. Makes me feel safer. But they still don't completely seal around my face.
I'm going to use a sharpie to decorate some, I think.
posted by rebent at 5:58 PM on January 22, 2021
So I realized that and purchased a 30 pack of KN-95 masks. They fit well and are burgundy, grey, and black with no logos.
I think they are re-usable. A pdf I read earlier today said they should be swapped out every day with a minimum 4-day rotation. But, I'm not sure for how long.
They are much more difficult to breath through than the cloth masks I've been using. Makes me feel safer. But they still don't completely seal around my face.
I'm going to use a sharpie to decorate some, I think.
posted by rebent at 5:58 PM on January 22, 2021
There's a lot of mentions of the word "slip", but I doubt very much that any inadvertent mask movement is involved in these exposed-nose cases. I'm pretty sure it's always a deliberate choice by the wearers.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:01 PM on January 22, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:01 PM on January 22, 2021 [24 favorites]
There's a lot of mentions of the word "slip", but I doubt very much that any inadvertent mask movement is involved in these exposed-nose cases. I'm pretty sure it's always a deliberate choice by the wearers.
The deliberate choice is not to fix the mask when it slips; they slip all the fucking time. It's super fun to set down and pick up all my groceries 7,000 times on my walk home from the store so I can fix my stupid fucking mask, I can tell you.
Are a lot of the nose-exposers jerkasses? Probably. But man. I am sick to everloving fucking death of this fucking mask bullshit and I kind of no longer have the energy to blame them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:16 PM on January 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
The deliberate choice is not to fix the mask when it slips; they slip all the fucking time. It's super fun to set down and pick up all my groceries 7,000 times on my walk home from the store so I can fix my stupid fucking mask, I can tell you.
Are a lot of the nose-exposers jerkasses? Probably. But man. I am sick to everloving fucking death of this fucking mask bullshit and I kind of no longer have the energy to blame them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:16 PM on January 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
It’s wild to me that we are this far into the pandemic, the severe N95 shortage is apparently over and still even important politicians are just wearing cloth masks or surgical masks to catch droplets and baffle breaths to reduce spread whatever percent.
The only places I have heard that the shortage is over are:
1) here on metafilter
2) in the Atlantic
So if nobody knows it's over except people who are
1) here
2) regular readers of the Atlantic
Then it really shouldn't be that wild. Info is not being spread well or clearly or even to most people.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:18 PM on January 22, 2021 [8 favorites]
The only places I have heard that the shortage is over are:
1) here on metafilter
2) in the Atlantic
So if nobody knows it's over except people who are
1) here
2) regular readers of the Atlantic
Then it really shouldn't be that wild. Info is not being spread well or clearly or even to most people.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:18 PM on January 22, 2021 [8 favorites]
Headline: "Worse than no mask!"
Me: "That's weird, how could it actually be worse? Some weird air flow thing?"
Article: "It's conceivable it's just about as bad as not wearing a mask."
Actual Research Paper: Did not study masks at all.
OK then.
posted by mark k at 6:20 PM on January 22, 2021 [48 favorites]
Me: "That's weird, how could it actually be worse? Some weird air flow thing?"
Article: "It's conceivable it's just about as bad as not wearing a mask."
Actual Research Paper: Did not study masks at all.
OK then.
posted by mark k at 6:20 PM on January 22, 2021 [48 favorites]
I’ve been refitted for N95s multiple times because the hospital keeps running out of the ones I fit for, and after I saw a patient with Covid today, I put my N95 back in my little paper bag to take back to my office to use again next time so... I don’t think we’re doing like awesome on the N95 supply.
posted by obfuscation at 6:21 PM on January 22, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 6:21 PM on January 22, 2021 [29 favorites]
Serious question: IS the N95 shortage over?
It is not. N95s are supposed to be single use—you put one on, interact with the patient, end the interaction, take the mask off, and throw it away.
Recently my hospital said that instead of wearing the same one for a week (!!!), I could throw one away at the end of a single shift. It still feels scandalously decadent to throw one in the trash after a measly 12 hours of use.
posted by jesourie at 6:24 PM on January 22, 2021 [39 favorites]
It is not. N95s are supposed to be single use—you put one on, interact with the patient, end the interaction, take the mask off, and throw it away.
Recently my hospital said that instead of wearing the same one for a week (!!!), I could throw one away at the end of a single shift. It still feels scandalously decadent to throw one in the trash after a measly 12 hours of use.
posted by jesourie at 6:24 PM on January 22, 2021 [39 favorites]
Did I miss something about N95s?
Considerations for Wearing Masks (US CDC, updated 2020-12-18)
Considerations for Wearing Masks (US CDC, updated 2020-12-18)
Masks with exhalation valves or ventsNew Airflow Videos Show Why Masks With Exhalation Valves Do Not Slow the Spread of COVID-19 (US NIST, 2020-11-10)
CDC does not recommend using masks with exhalation valves or vents because this type of mask may not prevent you from spreading COVID-19 to others. The hole in the material may allow your respiratory droplets to escape and reach others. Research on the effectiveness of these types of masks is ongoing.
In contrast to the schlieren video, this video shows the movement of droplets in air. On the left, droplets escape unfiltered through the valve of an N95 mask. In the middle, there is no valve and no breath is visible because the mask has filtered out the droplets. On the right, no mask is worn.posted by Not A Thing at 6:26 PM on January 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Someone over on AskMefi suggested these N-95s last week. The ones I ordered shipped quickly and seem better than the KN-95s I'd been able to get, so I'm upgrading to those for any time I need to be inside around other people. I don't do that a lot, so I can rotate them out and re-wear and they should last a long while. (Although the second box I shipped to family has been kicking around the USPS for a bit now, so it seems shipping speeds may vary.)
It bugs me seeing Biden not better protected. I can send him some better masks if he wants.
He got his first dose of the Pfizer vaccine back on 12/21, so given the usual dosing schedule and when it kicks in, I'm assuming he's pretty well protected by this point. (Which doesn't mean it's not important for him to wear a mask to protect others, of course. But you probably can relax a bit about him being protected.)
Did I miss something about N95s?
N95s can be made with or without vents. We're talking about the ones without vents.
posted by pie ninja at 6:28 PM on January 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
It bugs me seeing Biden not better protected. I can send him some better masks if he wants.
He got his first dose of the Pfizer vaccine back on 12/21, so given the usual dosing schedule and when it kicks in, I'm assuming he's pretty well protected by this point. (Which doesn't mean it's not important for him to wear a mask to protect others, of course. But you probably can relax a bit about him being protected.)
Did I miss something about N95s?
N95s can be made with or without vents. We're talking about the ones without vents.
posted by pie ninja at 6:28 PM on January 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
The N95 shortage isn't over, but KN95 (similar grade of protection made to China's standards) and KF94s (similar grade of protection made to Korea's standards) are in decent supply. I had a good experience ordering from Bona Fide masks last week, and they seem to be authentic (counterfeit masks are a problem.) I have not ordered KF94s, but Aaron Collins, an engineer who reviews masks very thoroughly on youtube seems to have good experiences buying them from Be Healthy.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:35 PM on January 22, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:35 PM on January 22, 2021 [19 favorites]
The cheap cloth mask with earloops is a terrible design. The flimsy nose clip, either nonexistent or weakened through months of wear and washing, doesn't hold onto anything. The simple non-pleated construction means that it can't handle any jaw movement. The earloops help the mask rotate downwards towards your neck every time you open your mouth. Cloth masks also get soggy and uncomfortable. Cotton absorbs moisture!
Surgicals are much better, assuming that you push in the nose clip and pull the bottom so it extends below your chin. If you have a small head, twist the earloops or tie knots so the mask actually pulls against your cheeks. Maybe try an ear saver or my preferred option, a bag clip. However, the number of people I've seen do these simple steps is tragically low. And these are things that actually make the mask protect you and not just others.
It's a good thing people can't see me sneering behind my elastomeric respirator and P100 filters.
I wish we had Korean-style KF94 masks, but I heard there's a patent in the US that prevents anyone other than 3M from making them - and they're all going to medical staff.
posted by meowzilla at 6:40 PM on January 22, 2021 [6 favorites]
Surgicals are much better, assuming that you push in the nose clip and pull the bottom so it extends below your chin. If you have a small head, twist the earloops or tie knots so the mask actually pulls against your cheeks. Maybe try an ear saver or my preferred option, a bag clip. However, the number of people I've seen do these simple steps is tragically low. And these are things that actually make the mask protect you and not just others.
It's a good thing people can't see me sneering behind my elastomeric respirator and P100 filters.
I wish we had Korean-style KF94 masks, but I heard there's a patent in the US that prevents anyone other than 3M from making them - and they're all going to medical staff.
posted by meowzilla at 6:40 PM on January 22, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's a good thing people can't see me sneering behind my elastomeric respirator and P100 filters.
oh, we can see you.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:45 PM on January 22, 2021 [24 favorites]
oh, we can see you.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:45 PM on January 22, 2021 [24 favorites]
Awesome, maybe people will do something to fix their terrible masks.
posted by meowzilla at 6:48 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 6:48 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
Awesome, maybe people will do something to fix their terrible masks.
What I'm trying to say is, nobody knows what to do. The information is bad, hard to find, hard to parse, fakes are rampant, and that's just what people are up against when they REALIZE they are doing badly, which most people do not, because again: The information is bad and hard to find and hard to parse. Most people who are wearing masks willingly probably think their masks are fine. Or maybe they are vaguely aware that they're not fine, but when they go looking for something, all they find is endless contradiction that shuts down any useful decision making.
You, a person I do not know on metafilter, say "elastomeric respirator and P100 filters" well what the hell am I supposed to do with that? I google "elastomeric respirator" and get results that are wildly different in size, shape, style, and cost. How am I, random person with no experience, supposed to know which one of those is good? How am I supposed to know which ones of those are fakes? And then I find articles saying those respirators are not necessary, they're extremely difficult to maintain properly, and one is better off with a regular mask.
At that point I am not going to lie, I shut down. And I'm a person at least nominally invested in wanting to get a useful mask, with a decent amount of money to spend, and a reasonable literacy in scientific writing. I am much better-positioned to do this analysis than most people, and I find it overwhelming. So I put on my vaguely-crappy surgical mask which still gaps no matter what I do, even when I tape it to my face, and go about my life.
Readily, widely, nay UNIVERSALLY available instructions. Clearly and simply written. No, more clearly and simply than that. Reliable, verified, available, affordable masks that meet the standards. Any snark in the absence of these things is just snobbery. Save it for the people who claim masks are tyranny and viruses are hoaxes.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:06 PM on January 22, 2021 [141 favorites]
What I'm trying to say is, nobody knows what to do. The information is bad, hard to find, hard to parse, fakes are rampant, and that's just what people are up against when they REALIZE they are doing badly, which most people do not, because again: The information is bad and hard to find and hard to parse. Most people who are wearing masks willingly probably think their masks are fine. Or maybe they are vaguely aware that they're not fine, but when they go looking for something, all they find is endless contradiction that shuts down any useful decision making.
You, a person I do not know on metafilter, say "elastomeric respirator and P100 filters" well what the hell am I supposed to do with that? I google "elastomeric respirator" and get results that are wildly different in size, shape, style, and cost. How am I, random person with no experience, supposed to know which one of those is good? How am I supposed to know which ones of those are fakes? And then I find articles saying those respirators are not necessary, they're extremely difficult to maintain properly, and one is better off with a regular mask.
At that point I am not going to lie, I shut down. And I'm a person at least nominally invested in wanting to get a useful mask, with a decent amount of money to spend, and a reasonable literacy in scientific writing. I am much better-positioned to do this analysis than most people, and I find it overwhelming. So I put on my vaguely-crappy surgical mask which still gaps no matter what I do, even when I tape it to my face, and go about my life.
Readily, widely, nay UNIVERSALLY available instructions. Clearly and simply written. No, more clearly and simply than that. Reliable, verified, available, affordable masks that meet the standards. Any snark in the absence of these things is just snobbery. Save it for the people who claim masks are tyranny and viruses are hoaxes.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:06 PM on January 22, 2021 [141 favorites]
Yes, I may have been a bit snarky. But I did not say anything about buying masks. The instructions that I listed about surgical masks? They're printed on the side of the box I bought from Costco.
posted by meowzilla at 7:20 PM on January 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 7:20 PM on January 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ratsniffers drive me nuts! I wear this mask with a double layer of this material for a filter. Much more comfortable and tighter fitting than the typical ear loop mask that most people wear.
What research I can find says this is about 70% effective at blocking particles, when properly set up. Anecdotally, I can say I wear a new mask and filter every day that I leave the house — sometimes for 12+ hours at a stretch. In early December I worked one-on-one with a student for 2-3 hours/day for a week and then he was diagnosed with COVID. We were both masked the entire time and I tried to maintain 6+ feet whenever possible. I came through okay. YMMV.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:22 PM on January 22, 2021
What research I can find says this is about 70% effective at blocking particles, when properly set up. Anecdotally, I can say I wear a new mask and filter every day that I leave the house — sometimes for 12+ hours at a stretch. In early December I worked one-on-one with a student for 2-3 hours/day for a week and then he was diagnosed with COVID. We were both masked the entire time and I tried to maintain 6+ feet whenever possible. I came through okay. YMMV.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:22 PM on January 22, 2021
For those interested, here's a recent scientific paper on cloth masks/material.
posted by gudrun at 8:13 PM on January 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by gudrun at 8:13 PM on January 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
I wear my condoms on my testicles
I wear my mask under my nose
My watch goes around my ankle
And my socks don't cover all toes
I wear my underpants on my head
I wear my bowtie on my chest
Trousers hang down past my butt
And my bra is only for one breast
I wear my condoms on my testicles
And my mask under my nose
posted by daybeforetheday at 8:17 PM on January 22, 2021 [30 favorites]
I wear my mask under my nose
My watch goes around my ankle
And my socks don't cover all toes
I wear my underpants on my head
I wear my bowtie on my chest
Trousers hang down past my butt
And my bra is only for one breast
I wear my condoms on my testicles
And my mask under my nose
posted by daybeforetheday at 8:17 PM on January 22, 2021 [30 favorites]
Those "surgical masks" you bought from Costco almost certainly weren't actual surgical masks, you know--just paper masks that look like them but don't filter sufficiently for medical use, which you can buy in any Target and are certainly better than nothing but not meaningfully better than a well-fitting cloth mask. Unless you have some magical wonderland Costco. So. That should be suggestive to you of the difficulties.
I've recently taken the risk of ordering some N95s online (at 10x what they cost prior to COVID), but it is essentially impossible to be confident they're not counterfeit. It is extremely difficult for people to do the right-est thing, and that is 100% a public health failure. I use cloth with a homemade shop-towel filter when going inside for any length of time, a different cloth style that actually fits my face a little better but is only two layers when just taking an outside walk, and I have like 3 N95s from the before days that I'm saving for extreme emergency (I had more, but donated them to health care workers early on). That's me, trying my best, but you are absolutely welcome to obtain some impeccably-sourced N95s for my routine usage.
posted by praemunire at 8:48 PM on January 22, 2021 [28 favorites]
I've recently taken the risk of ordering some N95s online (at 10x what they cost prior to COVID), but it is essentially impossible to be confident they're not counterfeit. It is extremely difficult for people to do the right-est thing, and that is 100% a public health failure. I use cloth with a homemade shop-towel filter when going inside for any length of time, a different cloth style that actually fits my face a little better but is only two layers when just taking an outside walk, and I have like 3 N95s from the before days that I'm saving for extreme emergency (I had more, but donated them to health care workers early on). That's me, trying my best, but you are absolutely welcome to obtain some impeccably-sourced N95s for my routine usage.
posted by praemunire at 8:48 PM on January 22, 2021 [28 favorites]
I avoid foggy glasses with a strip of surgical tape at the top of my N95/KN95 mask (learned that hack from a nurse friend)
posted by donatella at 8:53 PM on January 22, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by donatella at 8:53 PM on January 22, 2021 [8 favorites]
At that point I am not going to lie, I shut down. And I'm a person at least nominally invested in wanting to get a useful mask, with a decent amount of money to spend, and a reasonable literacy in scientific writing. I am much better-positioned to do this analysis than most people, and I find it overwhelming.
Yeah, seconded. I am literally just not smart enough to be able to deal with this and this is why I didn't get any masks or make any or figure out what to do for several months, and frankly it's just easier to not leave the house. The more you read and the more confusing it gets and the more everyone argues, the lost-er we morons who aren't doctors get.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:58 PM on January 22, 2021 [21 favorites]
Yeah, seconded. I am literally just not smart enough to be able to deal with this and this is why I didn't get any masks or make any or figure out what to do for several months, and frankly it's just easier to not leave the house. The more you read and the more confusing it gets and the more everyone argues, the lost-er we morons who aren't doctors get.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:58 PM on January 22, 2021 [21 favorites]
Just wear a mask.
Paper, cloth, bandanna, *95, whatever. None are perfect, all are better than nothing as long as you wear it over your breathe holes.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:21 PM on January 22, 2021 [22 favorites]
Paper, cloth, bandanna, *95, whatever. None are perfect, all are better than nothing as long as you wear it over your breathe holes.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:21 PM on January 22, 2021 [22 favorites]
The mask: 3M 6502QL for $22
The filters: 3M 2091 P100 filters for $12~16, price varies on supply but they have been available 100% of the time throughout the pandemic.
P100 filters trap 99.97% of virus-sized particles compared to N95's 95% and a cloth mask's 30% in/70% out. They are, at least in theory, hundreds if not thousands of times more effective than either. Note that these masks only filter exhalation through a simple positive pressure seal and direct it straight downward so if you are infected they are neither better nor worse than a simple cloth mask for the people around you. They are simply a far, far more effective means of not getting infected from airborne virus particles if you have co-morbidities and want to take this shit serious.
Note that the $12 filter pairs are for 40 hours active use or one month after you open the package, whichever comes first. They have always, always been available since last March.
I kind of thought everybody here knew all this, but if you didn't, there you go. I find them easier to breathe with than a cloth mask + N95 but far more difficult to talk (more like half-shout) through.
posted by Ryvar at 9:35 PM on January 22, 2021 [15 favorites]
The filters: 3M 2091 P100 filters for $12~16, price varies on supply but they have been available 100% of the time throughout the pandemic.
P100 filters trap 99.97% of virus-sized particles compared to N95's 95% and a cloth mask's 30% in/70% out. They are, at least in theory, hundreds if not thousands of times more effective than either. Note that these masks only filter exhalation through a simple positive pressure seal and direct it straight downward so if you are infected they are neither better nor worse than a simple cloth mask for the people around you. They are simply a far, far more effective means of not getting infected from airborne virus particles if you have co-morbidities and want to take this shit serious.
Note that the $12 filter pairs are for 40 hours active use or one month after you open the package, whichever comes first. They have always, always been available since last March.
I kind of thought everybody here knew all this, but if you didn't, there you go. I find them easier to breathe with than a cloth mask + N95 but far more difficult to talk (more like half-shout) through.
posted by Ryvar at 9:35 PM on January 22, 2021 [15 favorites]
According to the article, most of the virus travels through your nose, rather than your mouth. That makes sense because, when they test you for Covid-19, they stick the Q-tip into your nostril.
By that logic, if someone is going to go around half-masked, it is better if they take the mask off their mouth and keep it over their nose!
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 9:45 PM on January 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
By that logic, if someone is going to go around half-masked, it is better if they take the mask off their mouth and keep it over their nose!
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 9:45 PM on January 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
Foggy glasses isn't even an excuse
"Simply twist the loops once and put them over your ears (they’ll form a figure eight when viewed from the side). Twisting the loops puts slight downward pressure on the top part of the mask
It works against foggy glasses because it redirects your breath out the two giant holes you've opened at the sides of your mask - twisting the loop pinches the two points where it hits the mask together, which means it no longer sits flush with your face (as you can see in this image from the top of google image search.)
It might not be quite as bad as poking your nose out, but it's close.
posted by Dysk at 9:48 PM on January 22, 2021 [11 favorites]
"Simply twist the loops once and put them over your ears (they’ll form a figure eight when viewed from the side). Twisting the loops puts slight downward pressure on the top part of the mask
It works against foggy glasses because it redirects your breath out the two giant holes you've opened at the sides of your mask - twisting the loop pinches the two points where it hits the mask together, which means it no longer sits flush with your face (as you can see in this image from the top of google image search.)
It might not be quite as bad as poking your nose out, but it's close.
posted by Dysk at 9:48 PM on January 22, 2021 [11 favorites]
Nice info Ryvar! Been doing KN95s so far. So far so good. But will look into these.
posted by Windopaene at 9:49 PM on January 22, 2021
posted by Windopaene at 9:49 PM on January 22, 2021
Your mileage may vary based on your location, but one thing I've found is that cloth masks are the only ones available locally in sizes. Wearing masks that are too big often is why people do the awful twist-the-loop thing, too small is often a cause for the nose-poking happening every time you move your jaw. Getting a mask in a size that actually fits decently on your face helps a lot. I'll take a three-plus layer cloth mask that I can meaningfully wear for the nine hours of my workday + commute over a paper mask that might theoretically be better, but that I can't wear comfortably for a day without needing constant adjustment (which is not great either). Proper medical-grade disposables are simply not available in shops where I am.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 PM on January 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:59 PM on January 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
I've recently taken the risk of ordering some N95s online (at 10x what they cost prior to COVID), but it is essentially impossible to be confident they're not counterfeit.
There's a manufacturer here in the Miami area that has had N95 masks they are manufacturing themselves consistently available for order on their website for the past six months, if not longer. Idiotic contracts that hospitals have and federal government dysfunction have heretofore left them with a ton of excess supply despite their attempts to sell in bulk.
posted by wierdo at 10:16 PM on January 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
There's a manufacturer here in the Miami area that has had N95 masks they are manufacturing themselves consistently available for order on their website for the past six months, if not longer. Idiotic contracts that hospitals have and federal government dysfunction have heretofore left them with a ton of excess supply despite their attempts to sell in bulk.
posted by wierdo at 10:16 PM on January 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Glad I could help, Windopaene. For anyone who does go this route: remember to perform a negative pressure seal check (gently push down on the intake holes with your palms, try inhaling to ensure the mask *glomps* to your face) when putting on your mask. Takes less than 5 seconds and if you don’t have a good seal you might as well be reusing old N95s.
If you are using the inexpensive disc filters I linked you can do that while the discs are attached (which is not true with the expensive specialty hard plastic cartridge filters Amazon tries to push on you). These are obviously overkill for no contact curbside grocery runs but if you ever have to fly due to a family emergency - or regularly use an elevator - then they’re pretty essential. Outside the home my wife and I use cloth masks for walks, and our half-mask respirators if we’re likely to be indoors at any point.
posted by Ryvar at 10:17 PM on January 22, 2021
If you are using the inexpensive disc filters I linked you can do that while the discs are attached (which is not true with the expensive specialty hard plastic cartridge filters Amazon tries to push on you). These are obviously overkill for no contact curbside grocery runs but if you ever have to fly due to a family emergency - or regularly use an elevator - then they’re pretty essential. Outside the home my wife and I use cloth masks for walks, and our half-mask respirators if we’re likely to be indoors at any point.
posted by Ryvar at 10:17 PM on January 22, 2021
Anecdata from a semi-educated layman who's doing their level best to keep up with the aforementioned confusing information, on the off-chance it helps someone decide. This virus scares the crap out of me so I'm trying to take it seriously, short of being needlessly paranoid.
Context: I am a 6' American male with a proportionally large head, and I have a beard. I recognize that it's not possible to get a true mask-to-skin seal with a beard; that's why I'm not going with the typical square masks that provide less facial coverage, though I grant such masks may work fine for smaller headed/non-bearded folks. The only times I go out in public are my weekly combined grocery/liquor store trip (I work from home). I also live in an area that is relatively less stricken than some other high-density cities, and blessedly the majority of folks I encounter are also wearing their masks properly. I don't expect any of the following to be the full equivalent of real N95 PPE!
I found an extra-large mask for beard wearers on Etsy.com to assure maximum facial coverage, assuming that more can't help but be better to at least some degree - sorry, I don't have a link but I used keywords "adult xl beard mask". It has two fabric layers (they're different but I couldn't tell you what they're composed of) that form a pocket for an additional filter. It also has a narrow pocket across the bridge of the nose to hold a wire or metal piece to fit it tight against my face, which I consider critical to the mask's effectiveness, and it doesn't fog my glasses at all once I have that metal piece adjusted properly. If a mask is making your glasses fog up, or you can feel a breeze on your cheeks/eyelashes when you breathe, the mask is not doing an effective job at blocking virus particles!! It covers me from the bridge of my nose and my upper cheeks to the crease where my jaw meets my neck, and fully ear to ear. I chose a mask with ties rather than ear loops because that's what I prefer. I haven't had any issue with the sides pooking out as mentioned by others in this thread. The filter pocket is large enough that it allows me to cut filters to nearly the same dimensions of the mask itself.
For a while I used trimmed-to-fit blue shop towels for filters, based on the info I had at the time that said such non-woven "blown" fibers were more efficient than woven materials at capturing virus particles. Recently however - and again, based on newer info - I bought a roll of this material to custom-cut filters from to fit my existing mask...as best I can tell it's better at capturing virus particles than the shop towels, and I've found it to be more breathable despite its purported superiority to shop towels, which I very much appreciate. I've been trimming a single-layer filter to fit my mask, but with news of more-transmissible mutations now making the rounds I'm going to try double-layering it for better filtration and hope I can still breathe through it.
I keep the combined mask and filter in a ventilated out-of-the-way place during the week to let any captured virus particles die excruciating lonely deaths before re-using it; as I understand it that takes 3-5 days for most mask types. Obviously people who have to get out more often would need to rotate multiple masks+filters for safe coverage, probably one per day for average folks that aren't working in hospitals or the like. Every six weeks or so I wash the mask and replace the filter material.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:34 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
Context: I am a 6' American male with a proportionally large head, and I have a beard. I recognize that it's not possible to get a true mask-to-skin seal with a beard; that's why I'm not going with the typical square masks that provide less facial coverage, though I grant such masks may work fine for smaller headed/non-bearded folks. The only times I go out in public are my weekly combined grocery/liquor store trip (I work from home). I also live in an area that is relatively less stricken than some other high-density cities, and blessedly the majority of folks I encounter are also wearing their masks properly. I don't expect any of the following to be the full equivalent of real N95 PPE!
I found an extra-large mask for beard wearers on Etsy.com to assure maximum facial coverage, assuming that more can't help but be better to at least some degree - sorry, I don't have a link but I used keywords "adult xl beard mask". It has two fabric layers (they're different but I couldn't tell you what they're composed of) that form a pocket for an additional filter. It also has a narrow pocket across the bridge of the nose to hold a wire or metal piece to fit it tight against my face, which I consider critical to the mask's effectiveness, and it doesn't fog my glasses at all once I have that metal piece adjusted properly. If a mask is making your glasses fog up, or you can feel a breeze on your cheeks/eyelashes when you breathe, the mask is not doing an effective job at blocking virus particles!! It covers me from the bridge of my nose and my upper cheeks to the crease where my jaw meets my neck, and fully ear to ear. I chose a mask with ties rather than ear loops because that's what I prefer. I haven't had any issue with the sides pooking out as mentioned by others in this thread. The filter pocket is large enough that it allows me to cut filters to nearly the same dimensions of the mask itself.
For a while I used trimmed-to-fit blue shop towels for filters, based on the info I had at the time that said such non-woven "blown" fibers were more efficient than woven materials at capturing virus particles. Recently however - and again, based on newer info - I bought a roll of this material to custom-cut filters from to fit my existing mask...as best I can tell it's better at capturing virus particles than the shop towels, and I've found it to be more breathable despite its purported superiority to shop towels, which I very much appreciate. I've been trimming a single-layer filter to fit my mask, but with news of more-transmissible mutations now making the rounds I'm going to try double-layering it for better filtration and hope I can still breathe through it.
I keep the combined mask and filter in a ventilated out-of-the-way place during the week to let any captured virus particles die excruciating lonely deaths before re-using it; as I understand it that takes 3-5 days for most mask types. Obviously people who have to get out more often would need to rotate multiple masks+filters for safe coverage, probably one per day for average folks that aren't working in hospitals or the like. Every six weeks or so I wash the mask and replace the filter material.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:34 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
There were shortages of decent masks last year but China and other countries have since ramped up production. We should just do what Korea does -- the government sends every person in your house a decent mask once a week. You do not need to become an amateur mask expert because someone in the fucking government did their job and sourced good enough ones. It removes any excuse for not wearing a decent mask. If you have fit issues or special circumstances you go to a government site and they sort it out.
Remember the USPS was all set to do exactly this last March with suboptimal paper masks, but Trump explicitly forbade it because it might spook people from going to gaudy hotels and golf clubs.
posted by benzenedream at 10:36 PM on January 22, 2021 [49 favorites]
Remember the USPS was all set to do exactly this last March with suboptimal paper masks, but Trump explicitly forbade it because it might spook people from going to gaudy hotels and golf clubs.
posted by benzenedream at 10:36 PM on January 22, 2021 [49 favorites]
The more you read and the more confusing it gets and the more everyone argues, the lost-er we morons who aren't doctors get.
I don't think it has anything to do with being a doctor or not. At this point in the pandemic, no one is really sure how the virus is being spread, much less the optimal way of stopping it. We're discovering unfortunate truths about both our government and our fellow citizens. My region did a great job of "flattening the curve" but now it's a total mess here. Public mask wearing is around 100% indoors. We also lock down as fast as possible, but it doesn't seem to matter.
Masks are a fun topic to argue about. They're very visible and everyone has an opinion on them. Given my Instagram feed, there's a lot of money being spent on advertising them. But it's not clear that they are the best place to focus our resources: Half of U.S. adults don’t wear masks when in close contact with non-household members. Are all these people antimaskers? I doubt it. But giving them a bucket of N95s might not make as big a difference as you expect.
posted by meowzilla at 10:51 PM on January 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think it has anything to do with being a doctor or not. At this point in the pandemic, no one is really sure how the virus is being spread, much less the optimal way of stopping it. We're discovering unfortunate truths about both our government and our fellow citizens. My region did a great job of "flattening the curve" but now it's a total mess here. Public mask wearing is around 100% indoors. We also lock down as fast as possible, but it doesn't seem to matter.
Masks are a fun topic to argue about. They're very visible and everyone has an opinion on them. Given my Instagram feed, there's a lot of money being spent on advertising them. But it's not clear that they are the best place to focus our resources: Half of U.S. adults don’t wear masks when in close contact with non-household members. Are all these people antimaskers? I doubt it. But giving them a bucket of N95s might not make as big a difference as you expect.
posted by meowzilla at 10:51 PM on January 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
But giving them a bucket of N95s might not make as big a difference as you expect.
You know what? If we did it, and it didn't make a difference, at least we would have done a fucking thing for fucking once. Instead of absolutely nothing, ever, except every person for themselves in a Wild West of bullshit and bad faith.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:27 PM on January 22, 2021 [56 favorites]
You know what? If we did it, and it didn't make a difference, at least we would have done a fucking thing for fucking once. Instead of absolutely nothing, ever, except every person for themselves in a Wild West of bullshit and bad faith.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:27 PM on January 22, 2021 [56 favorites]
So it seems like we need to design a mask that when it slips, it slips 'up' to let you mouthbreathe instead of down to let your nose hang out.
I have no concrete ideas; it just seems that if we can let the lazy case cover the germier hole, we'd be better off.
posted by batter_my_heart at 11:37 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have no concrete ideas; it just seems that if we can let the lazy case cover the germier hole, we'd be better off.
posted by batter_my_heart at 11:37 PM on January 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
So it seems like we need to design a mask that when it slips, it slips 'up' to let you mouthbreathe instead of down to let your nose hang out.
We can also remind the maskholes that they can do mildly challenging things, like breathe through a mask, in order to protect themselves and, even more importantly, those around them.
posted by third word on a random page at 12:04 AM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
We can also remind the maskholes that they can do mildly challenging things, like breathe through a mask, in order to protect themselves and, even more importantly, those around them.
posted by third word on a random page at 12:04 AM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
For those who use N95 masks, I learned about this through translation work involving Taiwan’s coronavirus response, but basically researchers have found that you can use a rice cooker or Instant Pot to sterilize your N95 masks without harming their effectiveness. I suspect that this might be useful to at least some folks out there?
posted by DoctorFedora at 1:55 AM on January 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 1:55 AM on January 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
Thank you DoctorFedora. The wonders of the instant pot continue.
posted by roolya_boolya at 2:06 AM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by roolya_boolya at 2:06 AM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was totally unsurprised to see that Bill Clinton is one of these in the inauguration pictures, and I'm now wondering exactly how strong the correlation is between the inability to keep one's nose in one's mask and one's dick in one's pants.
posted by terretu at 2:20 AM on January 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by terretu at 2:20 AM on January 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
For those reading Ryvar's recommendations, make sure you know that kind of mask only protects YOU. It filters air in but does not filter it out.
posted by teragram at 2:20 AM on January 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by teragram at 2:20 AM on January 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
Ryvar, I'm a physician at a medical center with robust programs in infectious diseases, population health, public policy. The type of mask you describe is explicitly banned on our campus, and we've been strongly discouraged from using them for private use. A mask that filters in but not out is functionally equivalent to exposing your nose.
It turns out this shit is hard even for people who've spent decades studying it. Let's dial down the anger and self-righteous and treat each other with a little kindness after this last year in hell.
posted by basalganglia at 2:55 AM on January 23, 2021 [63 favorites]
It turns out this shit is hard even for people who've spent decades studying it. Let's dial down the anger and self-righteous and treat each other with a little kindness after this last year in hell.
posted by basalganglia at 2:55 AM on January 23, 2021 [63 favorites]
I've been using tape to hold some masks in place, which isn't great because sensitive skin, but it helps with both the fogging and the slipping problems.
The thing that bothers me almost as much as dick nosing is when masks are worn so low that they basically only cover the nostrils. It never seems like people are using tape in those cases to eliminate gaps - it always looks like there are huge gaps just above the nostrils, and then I start wondering how effective that actually is and have to look away.
posted by trig at 3:15 AM on January 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
The thing that bothers me almost as much as dick nosing is when masks are worn so low that they basically only cover the nostrils. It never seems like people are using tape in those cases to eliminate gaps - it always looks like there are huge gaps just above the nostrils, and then I start wondering how effective that actually is and have to look away.
posted by trig at 3:15 AM on January 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
For what it's worth, I used to use n95s every time I worked with singing mice for possible pathogen control reasons. Wearing them for an extended period (like a 12-hour shift) shouldn't necessarily impair their effectiveness; as long as you don't take the mask off again after using, you can wear them for quite a long time and continue to be safe.
Of course, staying masked that long with one of them sounds like a completely miserable experience that would give you the headaches from all hell. God. I'm wincing thinking about it. I used to bitch about wearing one for two or three hours on big colony care days.
I don't know, guys. My spouse and I used a ten pack of k95s over for months; mostly I try to limit my exposure by not going out anywhere I don't absolutely have to, and I have the privilege to only be required to go into work indoors with other humans a few times a semester. I'm currently using a pair of better fitting cloth masks which are, bluntly, washable so they at least don't smell like halitosis after a while. I can't figure out whether filters in them actually do much or are worth bothering with, since there's no way to ensure a seal of the filter material around my face. I keep my masks on for long periods of time (anything longer than ten minutes) by using ear savers, which produce a better seal than leaving the loops over my ears as best I can tell by doing the same fit tests I'm used to from eight years of working with n95s (seeing if I can fog my glasses, for one). I have a small head, of course; your mileage might vary. I have never felt safe in surgical masks, which I have never seen or felt sealing worth a damn.
For those certain Biden is now protected via vaccine: you must remember, the vaccine doesn't fully confer protection for 20 days after your second dose; my spouse just got theirs on Wednesday but the rest of us will probably be waiting some time. And you should keep masking afterwards anyway, too.
I don't know. I'm overwhelmed by the difficulty of filtering information, too. If folks are in well fitting masks with nose covered, at least I can trust them to be doing the best they can.
posted by sciatrix at 5:54 AM on January 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
Of course, staying masked that long with one of them sounds like a completely miserable experience that would give you the headaches from all hell. God. I'm wincing thinking about it. I used to bitch about wearing one for two or three hours on big colony care days.
I don't know, guys. My spouse and I used a ten pack of k95s over for months; mostly I try to limit my exposure by not going out anywhere I don't absolutely have to, and I have the privilege to only be required to go into work indoors with other humans a few times a semester. I'm currently using a pair of better fitting cloth masks which are, bluntly, washable so they at least don't smell like halitosis after a while. I can't figure out whether filters in them actually do much or are worth bothering with, since there's no way to ensure a seal of the filter material around my face. I keep my masks on for long periods of time (anything longer than ten minutes) by using ear savers, which produce a better seal than leaving the loops over my ears as best I can tell by doing the same fit tests I'm used to from eight years of working with n95s (seeing if I can fog my glasses, for one). I have a small head, of course; your mileage might vary. I have never felt safe in surgical masks, which I have never seen or felt sealing worth a damn.
For those certain Biden is now protected via vaccine: you must remember, the vaccine doesn't fully confer protection for 20 days after your second dose; my spouse just got theirs on Wednesday but the rest of us will probably be waiting some time. And you should keep masking afterwards anyway, too.
I don't know. I'm overwhelmed by the difficulty of filtering information, too. If folks are in well fitting masks with nose covered, at least I can trust them to be doing the best they can.
posted by sciatrix at 5:54 AM on January 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
The mask: 3M 6502QL for $22
These do not filter your exhaled air -- they vent directly to the outside, which means you may be protected from inhaling the virus, but when you exhale it's the same as having your nose outside your mask, no protection.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:14 AM on January 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
These do not filter your exhaled air -- they vent directly to the outside, which means you may be protected from inhaling the virus, but when you exhale it's the same as having your nose outside your mask, no protection.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:14 AM on January 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
Everyone hates wearing these fucking things, but apparently a lot of people have weighed the issues and decided to cling to any justification they can find for not doing so - up to and including "fuck you, I just don't want to" - over the documented evidence that doing so saves lives. As Jesse Ventura put it:
"No one can wear a mask without bitching about it. A mask! My mom wore a mask 40 hours a week, nearly every day of her life, because she worked in surgery in a hospital. And yet we can’t even put them on to save ourselves."
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:48 AM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
"No one can wear a mask without bitching about it. A mask! My mom wore a mask 40 hours a week, nearly every day of her life, because she worked in surgery in a hospital. And yet we can’t even put them on to save ourselves."
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:48 AM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I wish we had Korean-style KF94 masks, but I heard there's a patent in the US that prevents anyone other than 3M from making them - and they're all going to medical staff.
Ever since South Korea lifted their export restrictions, KF94s have been widely available in the US in Korean supermarkets and online. Get the trifold ones - the seal is much better. Each brand fits slightly differently, so try a few if you can.
posted by airmail at 6:55 AM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ever since South Korea lifted their export restrictions, KF94s have been widely available in the US in Korean supermarkets and online. Get the trifold ones - the seal is much better. Each brand fits slightly differently, so try a few if you can.
posted by airmail at 6:55 AM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
If 10 disposable KF94 masks cost $35, I would need to spend at least $200 a month just keeping myself and my two kids in masks per month. Even half that cost would be too much for most people to afford every month, especially when cloth masks that cost $5 each are infinitely reusable.
I heartily second the calls for people to stop sneering at those of us who use cloth masks (properly, nose-covered). If affordable masks aren't doing a good job protecting us in this pandemic, that is a failure of public health policy, NOT of individuals failing to do the responsible thing.
> There's a manufacturer here in the Miami area that has had N95 masks they are manufacturing themselves consistently available for order on their website for the past six months, if not longer.
.... link, please???? Every day I hear these apocryphal stories of mythical stockpiles of great masks that suppliers cannot seem to sell. Nary a purchase link, however.
posted by MiraK at 7:09 AM on January 23, 2021 [21 favorites]
I heartily second the calls for people to stop sneering at those of us who use cloth masks (properly, nose-covered). If affordable masks aren't doing a good job protecting us in this pandemic, that is a failure of public health policy, NOT of individuals failing to do the responsible thing.
> There's a manufacturer here in the Miami area that has had N95 masks they are manufacturing themselves consistently available for order on their website for the past six months, if not longer.
.... link, please???? Every day I hear these apocryphal stories of mythical stockpiles of great masks that suppliers cannot seem to sell. Nary a purchase link, however.
posted by MiraK at 7:09 AM on January 23, 2021 [21 favorites]
I had no idea people WERE literally sneering at my fabric, pleated, quadruple layered face masks. I originally made masks out of tshirts, because no one had masks or was even worried about it. This is the best I can do, and all my now masks were at least $15. Can't afford more, not going to worry about my mask and its effectiveness when cloth masks have shown to work as great as anything not 100% can work.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:20 AM on January 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:20 AM on January 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
Not that relevant to this thread and very UK-centric, but I found this New Statesman article on The eight biggest Covid-sceptic myths
and the accompanying myths FAQ pretty useful.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:26 AM on January 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
and the accompanying myths FAQ pretty useful.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:26 AM on January 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's some percentage of people who either just don't care, or who get off on being jerks by ostentatiously refusing to wear a mask. Right around where I live that seems to be a low percentage (ie, the social pressure to wear a mask is high) but a few miles away things look different for sure.
But like others have said so well, even for the people who do care and are willing to wear a mask, we are all working from limited information and with limited options. Thanks to federal dysfunction in particular, supply chains were never ramped up; nor were standards and guidelines established for minimum criteria that vendors of cloth or other masks need to attain.
Our situation is like what I see in several comments above. I have a couple of older, known-authentic N-95 masks that I keep in strategic reserve for special situations (like having to spend time in a waiting room at a clinic, or if it became necessary to fly). For going on walks where there is almost zero interaction with people, we have cloth masks that are comfortable but likely don't filter all that well. We have some "surgical" (non-surgical grade) paper masks, and we just ordered in a package of K-95s for situations where there is some close contact but not to the level of using one of the treasured N-95s.
So that's a lot of work and hassle, and is only possible because we work from home and can be selective in when and how we wear masks. That's not a strategy to recommend generally, and I don't even know if it is the right strategy. Like everyone I am guessing and making assumptions. I mean, I still see people with a bandana tied around their face, which is probably better than nothing but not by much.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:49 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
But like others have said so well, even for the people who do care and are willing to wear a mask, we are all working from limited information and with limited options. Thanks to federal dysfunction in particular, supply chains were never ramped up; nor were standards and guidelines established for minimum criteria that vendors of cloth or other masks need to attain.
Our situation is like what I see in several comments above. I have a couple of older, known-authentic N-95 masks that I keep in strategic reserve for special situations (like having to spend time in a waiting room at a clinic, or if it became necessary to fly). For going on walks where there is almost zero interaction with people, we have cloth masks that are comfortable but likely don't filter all that well. We have some "surgical" (non-surgical grade) paper masks, and we just ordered in a package of K-95s for situations where there is some close contact but not to the level of using one of the treasured N-95s.
So that's a lot of work and hassle, and is only possible because we work from home and can be selective in when and how we wear masks. That's not a strategy to recommend generally, and I don't even know if it is the right strategy. Like everyone I am guessing and making assumptions. I mean, I still see people with a bandana tied around their face, which is probably better than nothing but not by much.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:49 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've been wearing these POWECOM branded KN95s. I'm only wearing them for an hour at a time every so often, so I reuse one for a few trips to the grocery store before disposing of it, so a single 10-pack lasts a while. I don't know how to begin to detect counterfeits, so who knows, but they seem okay. They also don't fall down at all due to the shape.
My pleated cloth masks are definitely more comfortable to wear! So when I'm outside and not too close to people I tend to wear them instead. A decent pleated cloth mask doesn't fall down nearly as much as the non-pleated ones seem to do.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:57 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
My pleated cloth masks are definitely more comfortable to wear! So when I'm outside and not too close to people I tend to wear them instead. A decent pleated cloth mask doesn't fall down nearly as much as the non-pleated ones seem to do.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:57 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
One thing I have found very disturbing about mask use in the pandemic is people have been re-using the disposable blue surgical masks for months on end.
These masks are single use for a reason—their primary efficacy is electrostatic; once the bonds are saturated, you would be much better off using a cloth mask for a physical barrier.
Made me wonder about how much spread is people trying to do the right thing, but without enough sciencey understanding to be effective at it.
Nose spreading is completely counter-intuitive to me. Thank you for the article!
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 8:38 AM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
These masks are single use for a reason—their primary efficacy is electrostatic; once the bonds are saturated, you would be much better off using a cloth mask for a physical barrier.
Made me wonder about how much spread is people trying to do the right thing, but without enough sciencey understanding to be effective at it.
Nose spreading is completely counter-intuitive to me. Thank you for the article!
posted by Rube R. Nekker at 8:38 AM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
im as dismayed as anyone at the general shittiness of the entire situation but one thing i have noticed lately that i think may be good is people doubling up and seemingly wearing a cloth mask over a surgical electrostatic mask. I cant tell why people are doing it, whether its because they are uncertain of what is best or to try to combine the effects, but i have seen second-gentleman Doug Emhoff rocking this look recently. The Atlantic article linked upthread included a link to this report about the benefits of "double eight mask braces" in improving the efficacy of regular surgical/procedure masks. The braces in question are just chains of rubber bands creating a better seal.
two condoms is not safer than one, but two masks should be, right?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:05 AM on January 23, 2021
two condoms is not safer than one, but two masks should be, right?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:05 AM on January 23, 2021
The filters: 3M 2091 P100 filters for $12~16, price varies on supply but they have been available 100% of the time throughout the pandemic.
Be VERY cautious when buying cartridge 3M filters from Amazon. The one and only time I did, pre-pandemic, they were counterfeit. I can't find it now, but there was a site that showed what the real and fake 2091s looked like when you cut them open, and I certainly had the fake ones.
posted by Buy Sockpuppet Bonds! at 9:10 AM on January 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
Be VERY cautious when buying cartridge 3M filters from Amazon. The one and only time I did, pre-pandemic, they were counterfeit. I can't find it now, but there was a site that showed what the real and fake 2091s looked like when you cut them open, and I certainly had the fake ones.
posted by Buy Sockpuppet Bonds! at 9:10 AM on January 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
im as dismayed as anyone at the general shittiness of the entire situation but one thing i have noticed lately that i think may be good is people doubling up and seemingly wearing a cloth mask over a surgical electrostatic mask.
It attempts to save the N95 mask from external contamination from as long as possible. It's more to save the N95 then protect the wearer.
posted by jmauro at 10:08 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
It attempts to save the N95 mask from external contamination from as long as possible. It's more to save the N95 then protect the wearer.
posted by jmauro at 10:08 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by basalganglia: The type of mask you describe is explicitly banned on our campus, and we've been strongly discouraged from using them for private use. A mask that filters in but not out is functionally equivalent to exposing your nose.
It's not at all my place to question your expertise, nor the general guidance of the institution you're affiliated with. The specific model I linked has a clothlike membrane over the entrance to the positive pressure seal on the outflow vent which should provide the same basic filtration during exhalation as a cloth mask (I am staring right at it). I'd seen it hundreds of times but actually went and checked I wasn't imagining it before posting my original comment, because I don't want to contribute to the spread of misinformation.
I don't doubt that many models lack this, and that those other models provide no external protection whatsoever.
For the person wearing the mask, no positive pressure seal is absolute because turbulence is a thing but with a proper seal backflow during exhalation should be less than the 0.03% of particles that pass through P100 filters. For them it is definitely not like sticking your nose outside your mask. Reducing cumulative exposure to viral particles is the deciding factor and proper P100 filtration is thousands of times better than a cloth mask and hundreds of times better than an N95. Again, for the end user.
For people around you, which is a primary concern: the clothlike membrane at the opening for the external vent should function identically to a basic cotton mask - not any better (cloth masks are terrible filters) but not any worse, as I said. However! If you're concerned that this isn't going far enough in your responsibility to others around you it is both trivial and inexpensive ($16) to grab pack of P95 inserts and affix them over the inside of the external vent.
Based on your comment and out of an abundance of caution I've got a pack arriving tomorrow because - while I haven't come within twenty feet of anyone but my wife and one electoral worker (curbside) since spring last year - I have a responsibility to ensure I'm not endangering others. My third oldest memory is five days and torturous nights in an oxygen tent continually struggling not to drown in what can only be described as lung butter and I'm not willing to put myself or anybody else through that, ever. If I can do things better than the lax guidance issued to a general public unwilling to do the bare minimum (I'm in Texas, even now less than half the people I see through my car window on no-contact curbside grocery runs are wearing cloth masks), then I will do things better.
Finally:
Let's dial down the anger and self-righteous and treat each other with a little kindness after this last year in hell.
I hope this wasn't directed at me, but in case it was - part of responsibly living with a mood disorder is forcibly limiting your range of expression from Vulcan to Irritated Vulcan. My comments should generally be read in a robotic monotone unless I'm talking about Texas.
posted by Ryvar at 10:15 AM on January 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's not at all my place to question your expertise, nor the general guidance of the institution you're affiliated with. The specific model I linked has a clothlike membrane over the entrance to the positive pressure seal on the outflow vent which should provide the same basic filtration during exhalation as a cloth mask (I am staring right at it). I'd seen it hundreds of times but actually went and checked I wasn't imagining it before posting my original comment, because I don't want to contribute to the spread of misinformation.
I don't doubt that many models lack this, and that those other models provide no external protection whatsoever.
For the person wearing the mask, no positive pressure seal is absolute because turbulence is a thing but with a proper seal backflow during exhalation should be less than the 0.03% of particles that pass through P100 filters. For them it is definitely not like sticking your nose outside your mask. Reducing cumulative exposure to viral particles is the deciding factor and proper P100 filtration is thousands of times better than a cloth mask and hundreds of times better than an N95. Again, for the end user.
For people around you, which is a primary concern: the clothlike membrane at the opening for the external vent should function identically to a basic cotton mask - not any better (cloth masks are terrible filters) but not any worse, as I said. However! If you're concerned that this isn't going far enough in your responsibility to others around you it is both trivial and inexpensive ($16) to grab pack of P95 inserts and affix them over the inside of the external vent.
Based on your comment and out of an abundance of caution I've got a pack arriving tomorrow because - while I haven't come within twenty feet of anyone but my wife and one electoral worker (curbside) since spring last year - I have a responsibility to ensure I'm not endangering others. My third oldest memory is five days and torturous nights in an oxygen tent continually struggling not to drown in what can only be described as lung butter and I'm not willing to put myself or anybody else through that, ever. If I can do things better than the lax guidance issued to a general public unwilling to do the bare minimum (I'm in Texas, even now less than half the people I see through my car window on no-contact curbside grocery runs are wearing cloth masks), then I will do things better.
Finally:
Let's dial down the anger and self-righteous and treat each other with a little kindness after this last year in hell.
I hope this wasn't directed at me, but in case it was - part of responsibly living with a mood disorder is forcibly limiting your range of expression from Vulcan to Irritated Vulcan. My comments should generally be read in a robotic monotone unless I'm talking about Texas.
posted by Ryvar at 10:15 AM on January 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
Question for the hive: has anyone or any manufacturer produced a re-usable mask with dimples, as in, golf ball dimples?
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:28 AM on January 23, 2021
posted by JoeXIII007 at 10:28 AM on January 23, 2021
Reducing cumulative exposure to viral particles is the deciding factor and proper P100 filtration is thousands of times better than a cloth mask and hundreds of times better than an N95.
A claim of "thousands of times better" is not quantitative. If an N95 prevents almost all recorded instances of infection, then a thousand times better isn't saying much.
Without any quantitative information otherwise, one might conjecture that most instances of infection are because of improper or careless handling of N95 masks, not the effectiveness of the masks themselves.
posted by JackFlash at 11:33 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
A claim of "thousands of times better" is not quantitative. If an N95 prevents almost all recorded instances of infection, then a thousand times better isn't saying much.
Without any quantitative information otherwise, one might conjecture that most instances of infection are because of improper or careless handling of N95 masks, not the effectiveness of the masks themselves.
posted by JackFlash at 11:33 AM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I find the Public Health Agency of Canada's recommendations pretty clear. Two layers of tightly woven cotton or linen with a filter in between - so 3 layers, aka a "hybrid" cloth mask. These recommendations align with this study from the University of Chicago. Are hybrid masks as good as N95s? No. But they still do a good job, they're more comfortable, and more people are likely to wear them.
posted by thebots at 12:21 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by thebots at 12:21 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am an ENT doctor. I’m so lucky to have found a box of 50 N95s in the back of a closet last March. There was no expiration date, but the elastic bands were rotten and so I’ve had to staple new elastic straps to the sides. I wear them for about 100 hours (2 weeks) and then save them in case I have to go through them again. Our affiliated hospital system has been able to provide us with KN95s, but I don’t feel like they fit well or provide nearly the protection of my ancient Kimberly Clarke duckbill N95s. I really hope that the remaining 20 or so masks last me until the risk is low enough that I feel comfortable wearing a less protective mask.
posted by Fritzle at 1:08 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Fritzle at 1:08 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
A claim of "thousands of times better" is not quantitative. If an N95 prevents almost all recorded instances of infection, then a thousand times better isn't saying much.
It is not quantitative by population, it is quantitative by particle count.
[long sigh]...This is pretty much the other reason - aside from the general high-anxiety beanplating of Metafilter on most topics implying everyone had already read up on this - that I was generally averse to posting about P100 filter solutions and respirators here. It's why - as people were understandably upset about up thread - many people are just throwing out a few terms and not getting real specific on "go here, order this."
Most respirator models do not have *any* exhale filtration and for the people around you are nearly as bad as not wearing a mask (they deflect your breath straight down but that's about it). The one I linked and own has a basic clothlike membrane on the external vent but that's not necessarily the standard for other 3M respirator lines or other manufacturers (eg Moldex) from what I can tell. Amazon generally routes you to the cheapest source of a given product in their closest distribution warehouse for your region, not a fully vetted reseller, so when I link to 3M 2091 P100 filters there's no guarantee you're seeing the same reseller I am: in fact you probably aren't.
Doctors and institutions are tirelessly fighting a war against not only the virus itself but also the insouciance of the general public and also the Trump administration's malfeasance and also the active fuckery by scammers hawking fake goods. I don't envy their position, and I don't blame them for taking a somewhat "shut up and get in line, do the bare minimum" approach to online chatter - in general it's probably the best strategy from a public health approach.
That does not mean it is impossible to do better than cloth masks or N95 masks, and to do so for an amount of money that is a barrier for many people but not the vast majority of Metafilter users. It does mean you have to put time, significant mental energy and absolutely relentless vigilance into doing so. Especially now in the 11th hour of vaccine deployment and with Trump gone, when we're all breathing a sigh of relief and are most likely to start relaxing just a bit. I've been getting increasingly strict, not less, specifically to counteract that tendency in my self. This is the final sprint, and in any long-distance race this is when you are most likely to fuck up badly.
Right, on to the math:
Assume our mask-wearing subject is in an elevator and without a mask would inhale ten thousand airborne particles containing the Covid virus over their next twenty breaths. There is no such thing as a standard cloth mask [link to material efficacy comparison study] [link to errata for that study], but on average cloth masks are a 28~35% filtration barrier when inhaling. For simplicity we'll call it 30%.
We will also assume two other subjects, one wearing a properly fitted N95 mask with no gaps, and another wearing a properly fitted half-mask respirator with P100 filters.
The cloth mask wearer will on average inhale up to 7,000 particles.
The N95 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 500 particles.
The P100 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 3 particles.
Compared to the person with the cloth mask, the person with the P100 mask is typically exposed to 2,333 times fewer particles. Compared to the person with the N95 mask, the person with the P100 mask is typically exposed to 166 times fewer particles.
Much in the way your immune system routinely defeats a thousand would-be cancers every day, there is a certain amount of Covid exposure it is statistically likely to ward off. Even if you cross that threshold, the lower your exposure the longer it takes the infection to build and the more time your body has to bootstrap an effective immune response.
Beyond a certain level of air filtration the most likely avenues of infection are no longer the respiratory system but rather touching surfaces with hands and then touching near your mucus membranes/orifices. That's why N95 is generally the standard (airborne particles cease to be the biggest threat), but if you're in a forced close proximity situation with other people in a low-volume enclosure it's reasonable to want to exceed that standard.
posted by Ryvar at 1:10 PM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
It is not quantitative by population, it is quantitative by particle count.
[long sigh]...This is pretty much the other reason - aside from the general high-anxiety beanplating of Metafilter on most topics implying everyone had already read up on this - that I was generally averse to posting about P100 filter solutions and respirators here. It's why - as people were understandably upset about up thread - many people are just throwing out a few terms and not getting real specific on "go here, order this."
Most respirator models do not have *any* exhale filtration and for the people around you are nearly as bad as not wearing a mask (they deflect your breath straight down but that's about it). The one I linked and own has a basic clothlike membrane on the external vent but that's not necessarily the standard for other 3M respirator lines or other manufacturers (eg Moldex) from what I can tell. Amazon generally routes you to the cheapest source of a given product in their closest distribution warehouse for your region, not a fully vetted reseller, so when I link to 3M 2091 P100 filters there's no guarantee you're seeing the same reseller I am: in fact you probably aren't.
Doctors and institutions are tirelessly fighting a war against not only the virus itself but also the insouciance of the general public and also the Trump administration's malfeasance and also the active fuckery by scammers hawking fake goods. I don't envy their position, and I don't blame them for taking a somewhat "shut up and get in line, do the bare minimum" approach to online chatter - in general it's probably the best strategy from a public health approach.
That does not mean it is impossible to do better than cloth masks or N95 masks, and to do so for an amount of money that is a barrier for many people but not the vast majority of Metafilter users. It does mean you have to put time, significant mental energy and absolutely relentless vigilance into doing so. Especially now in the 11th hour of vaccine deployment and with Trump gone, when we're all breathing a sigh of relief and are most likely to start relaxing just a bit. I've been getting increasingly strict, not less, specifically to counteract that tendency in my self. This is the final sprint, and in any long-distance race this is when you are most likely to fuck up badly.
Right, on to the math:
Assume our mask-wearing subject is in an elevator and without a mask would inhale ten thousand airborne particles containing the Covid virus over their next twenty breaths. There is no such thing as a standard cloth mask [link to material efficacy comparison study] [link to errata for that study], but on average cloth masks are a 28~35% filtration barrier when inhaling. For simplicity we'll call it 30%.
We will also assume two other subjects, one wearing a properly fitted N95 mask with no gaps, and another wearing a properly fitted half-mask respirator with P100 filters.
The cloth mask wearer will on average inhale up to 7,000 particles.
The N95 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 500 particles.
The P100 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 3 particles.
Compared to the person with the cloth mask, the person with the P100 mask is typically exposed to 2,333 times fewer particles. Compared to the person with the N95 mask, the person with the P100 mask is typically exposed to 166 times fewer particles.
Much in the way your immune system routinely defeats a thousand would-be cancers every day, there is a certain amount of Covid exposure it is statistically likely to ward off. Even if you cross that threshold, the lower your exposure the longer it takes the infection to build and the more time your body has to bootstrap an effective immune response.
Beyond a certain level of air filtration the most likely avenues of infection are no longer the respiratory system but rather touching surfaces with hands and then touching near your mucus membranes/orifices. That's why N95 is generally the standard (airborne particles cease to be the biggest threat), but if you're in a forced close proximity situation with other people in a low-volume enclosure it's reasonable to want to exceed that standard.
posted by Ryvar at 1:10 PM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Made me wonder about how much spread is people trying to do the right thing, but without enough sciencey understanding to be effective at it.
I really wish that by this point we'd have a much clearer picture of the most common ways people are tending to get the virus in the first place. Were they wearing masks, what kind of masks, did they wear them properly, what kinds of places were they going to, how long did they spend there, was everyone else wearing a mask, were they at a party or a friendly gathering of people outside their household, etc... do we have much of that information from recent weeks?
Does anyone know anymore how risky it is these days to go to a big supermarket when it's not busy and everyone you can see is wearing a mask? I know months ago that was said to be one of the lower risk activities, but now with the new variants and all the community spread, is it still low risk? So many questions. So many people on the internet saying different things. Biden administration, help us.
posted by wondermouse at 1:41 PM on January 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
I really wish that by this point we'd have a much clearer picture of the most common ways people are tending to get the virus in the first place. Were they wearing masks, what kind of masks, did they wear them properly, what kinds of places were they going to, how long did they spend there, was everyone else wearing a mask, were they at a party or a friendly gathering of people outside their household, etc... do we have much of that information from recent weeks?
Does anyone know anymore how risky it is these days to go to a big supermarket when it's not busy and everyone you can see is wearing a mask? I know months ago that was said to be one of the lower risk activities, but now with the new variants and all the community spread, is it still low risk? So many questions. So many people on the internet saying different things. Biden administration, help us.
posted by wondermouse at 1:41 PM on January 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
> I've recently taken the risk of ordering some N95s online (at 10x what they cost prior to COVID), but it is essentially impossible to be confident they're not counterfeit. It is extremely difficult for people to do the right-est thing, and that is 100% a public health failure.
This is so frustrating. My household was all work-from-home, school-from-home for the fall, and the cloth masks I made were good enough, but one of us is spending more time outside the house these days. I found disposable masks that fit them and that they like (these ones, if you're curious) but how the fuck am I supposed to know if they're actually protecting the person I love from COVID? Why isn't there a box of tested, certified, government-issue, free masks showing up on my doorstep every month?
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:48 PM on January 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
This is so frustrating. My household was all work-from-home, school-from-home for the fall, and the cloth masks I made were good enough, but one of us is spending more time outside the house these days. I found disposable masks that fit them and that they like (these ones, if you're curious) but how the fuck am I supposed to know if they're actually protecting the person I love from COVID? Why isn't there a box of tested, certified, government-issue, free masks showing up on my doorstep every month?
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:48 PM on January 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
Buried my best friend on Monday. I screamed so loud at the first person I saw wearing a mask improperly that my BF (who isn't a big guy) was worried I was going to get us killed. I'm going to get steel toed boots and start kicking them in the shin. I can run fast.
posted by lextex at 1:50 PM on January 23, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by lextex at 1:50 PM on January 23, 2021 [18 favorites]
The cloth mask wearer will on average inhale up to 7,000 particles.
The N95 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 500 particles.
The P100 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 3 particles.
But how many particles will an asymptomatic carrier exhale through the mask in these 3 cases?
We've been advised for months now that wearing a mask is a social good: it is as much to protect others from yourself as to protect yourself from others. That's why people here are pushing back against the P100 you recommend, with unfiltered or only-lightly-filtered exhale: its protection is fuck-you-got-mine asymmetric.
(FWIW, I ordered N95s and KN95s from Protectly and Bona Fide Masks last weekend and they arrived promptly. Also, per advice from AskMe, I was able to find valveless 3M N95s in-stock and significantly cheaper at McMaster-Carr; they all seem to have gone out-of-stock now, but worth keeping an eye on. The 3M package has an authentication code printed on it that you can use once at 3m.com/safeguard to verify authenticity.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:55 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
The N95 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 500 particles.
The P100 mask wearer will on average inhale up to 3 particles.
But how many particles will an asymptomatic carrier exhale through the mask in these 3 cases?
We've been advised for months now that wearing a mask is a social good: it is as much to protect others from yourself as to protect yourself from others. That's why people here are pushing back against the P100 you recommend, with unfiltered or only-lightly-filtered exhale: its protection is fuck-you-got-mine asymmetric.
(FWIW, I ordered N95s and KN95s from Protectly and Bona Fide Masks last weekend and they arrived promptly. Also, per advice from AskMe, I was able to find valveless 3M N95s in-stock and significantly cheaper at McMaster-Carr; they all seem to have gone out-of-stock now, but worth keeping an eye on. The 3M package has an authentication code printed on it that you can use once at 3m.com/safeguard to verify authenticity.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:55 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm incredibly sorry to hear that, lextex.
A few weeks ago four of the real fucker-type anti-maskers we get here in Texas spread out across a trail to block my wife who was running her weekly half-marathon with (cloth) mask on, forcing her to go way off-trail to run around them, and then shouted "ONLY INFECTED PEOPLE WEAR MASKS" at her. After she told me about it I asked her to please consider carrying mace on her runs, only to learn she started doing that two weeks prior.
Stay safe and seriously: fuck those guys.
posted by Ryvar at 1:56 PM on January 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
A few weeks ago four of the real fucker-type anti-maskers we get here in Texas spread out across a trail to block my wife who was running her weekly half-marathon with (cloth) mask on, forcing her to go way off-trail to run around them, and then shouted "ONLY INFECTED PEOPLE WEAR MASKS" at her. After she told me about it I asked her to please consider carrying mace on her runs, only to learn she started doing that two weeks prior.
Stay safe and seriously: fuck those guys.
posted by Ryvar at 1:56 PM on January 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
Why isn't there a box of tested, certified, government-issue, free masks showing up on my doorstep every month?
Or even just links to legitimate places for people to buy them where the masks are in stock and not price gouged. And how people can figure out which masks will fit their face before spending too much money on some mystery N95s that might not fit well enough to protect them. One-size-fits-all masks are always too big on me.
posted by wondermouse at 1:57 PM on January 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
Or even just links to legitimate places for people to buy them where the masks are in stock and not price gouged. And how people can figure out which masks will fit their face before spending too much money on some mystery N95s that might not fit well enough to protect them. One-size-fits-all masks are always too big on me.
posted by wondermouse at 1:57 PM on January 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
We will also assume two other subjects, one wearing a properly fitted N95 mask with no gaps, and another wearing a properly fitted half-mask respirator with P100 filters.
And then you just make up some hypothetical numbers without any basis. And you don't know the threshold for exposure. So in the real world, your "thousand times better" mask may have no real effect at all. You don't know.
Further, as you allude, below a unknown threshold, touching contaminated surfaces may cause more infections than inhalation. One might be below that threshold with an N95 mask. In that case, handling a plastic respirator day after day might be more dangerous than using a disposable mask. You don't know.
posted by JackFlash at 1:58 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
And then you just make up some hypothetical numbers without any basis. And you don't know the threshold for exposure. So in the real world, your "thousand times better" mask may have no real effect at all. You don't know.
Further, as you allude, below a unknown threshold, touching contaminated surfaces may cause more infections than inhalation. One might be below that threshold with an N95 mask. In that case, handling a plastic respirator day after day might be more dangerous than using a disposable mask. You don't know.
posted by JackFlash at 1:58 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
> the severe N95 shortage is apparently over
The CDC is still telling us not to leave N95s and surgical masks for medical professionals. Which is weird, because surgical masks are at Costco, on Amazon, in the drug stores -- they're not hard to find these days.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:05 PM on January 23, 2021
The CDC is still telling us not to leave N95s and surgical masks for medical professionals. Which is weird, because surgical masks are at Costco, on Amazon, in the drug stores -- they're not hard to find these days.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:05 PM on January 23, 2021
JackFlash: it is impossible to know the precise numbers. How many airborne particles are present is dependent on a literally impossible number of variables to ever accurately simulate. How much the infected person is exhaling, what their filtration is, the size of the space, the ventilation, how recently the infected person was in it, etc. etc. etc.
Similarly your infection threshold is going to be subject to an impossible number of variables regarding the specifics of your immune system and general health.
I am making no assertions whatsoever about absolute numbers because it is literally impossible for anyone to do so. I am strictly making assertions regarding relative exposure in identical conditions because that is all we can ever meaningfully know. Reduce your exposure however you can: I wasn't kidding when I said I haven't been within 20 feet of another human being aside from my wife and a single poll worker since spring last year. Because staying home is the single most effective thing you can do. Getting your groceries via no-contact curbside pickup (both Walmart and Target offer this including for cold foods now) is probably another great thing to do.
Anyone who claims they can tell you the absolute odds or infection thresholds is lying. We can only speak in relative terms and lower is better. I know this situation is frustrating but please refrain from burning straw men.
posted by Ryvar at 2:08 PM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Similarly your infection threshold is going to be subject to an impossible number of variables regarding the specifics of your immune system and general health.
I am making no assertions whatsoever about absolute numbers because it is literally impossible for anyone to do so. I am strictly making assertions regarding relative exposure in identical conditions because that is all we can ever meaningfully know. Reduce your exposure however you can: I wasn't kidding when I said I haven't been within 20 feet of another human being aside from my wife and a single poll worker since spring last year. Because staying home is the single most effective thing you can do. Getting your groceries via no-contact curbside pickup (both Walmart and Target offer this including for cold foods now) is probably another great thing to do.
Anyone who claims they can tell you the absolute odds or infection thresholds is lying. We can only speak in relative terms and lower is better. I know this situation is frustrating but please refrain from burning straw men.
posted by Ryvar at 2:08 PM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Anyone who claims they can tell you the absolute odds or infection thresholds is lying. We can only speak in relative terms and lower is better.
I agree but you started out with this unambiguous statement that the respirators were safer:
"They are simply a far, far more effective means of not getting infected from airborne virus particles if you have co-morbidities and want to take this shit serious."
If it makes you feel more secure, fine. But it would be incorrect to push your preferences on others.
And I'm simply pointing out that you have no data to support the claim that there is any significant or even measurable difference in the real world for coronavirus infections.
posted by JackFlash at 2:42 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I agree but you started out with this unambiguous statement that the respirators were safer:
"They are simply a far, far more effective means of not getting infected from airborne virus particles if you have co-morbidities and want to take this shit serious."
If it makes you feel more secure, fine. But it would be incorrect to push your preferences on others.
And I'm simply pointing out that you have no data to support the claim that there is any significant or even measurable difference in the real world for coronavirus infections.
posted by JackFlash at 2:42 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
And I'm simply pointing out that you have no data to support the claim that there is any significant or even measurable difference in the real world for coronavirus infections.
Correct. The only data we have is that they reduce exposure to airborne particles specifically. If you are trying to contest the assertion that reduced exposure = reduced infection, then I wish you the best of luck on getting that study funded.
posted by Ryvar at 2:48 PM on January 23, 2021
Correct. The only data we have is that they reduce exposure to airborne particles specifically. If you are trying to contest the assertion that reduced exposure = reduced infection, then I wish you the best of luck on getting that study funded.
posted by Ryvar at 2:48 PM on January 23, 2021
But how many particles will an asymptomatic carrier exhale through the mask in these 3 cases?
EXACTLY.
Ryvar, I have no doubt that the p100 masks with an exhalation valve are better at filtering inhaled particles; they are for sure more comfortable due to lack of humidity/moisture build-up close to the skin.
Because that moisture is heading out into a potentially infectious cloud that will kill someone else.
Here is a convenient video which explains why exhalation valves are unsafe for those around you.
This insistence on ignoring source control fits in nicely with the Standard American "I'm safe so fuck you" mentality, but I'm disappointed to see it here on Metafilter. I'm trying really hard to take my own earlier advice about kindness -- I've rewritten this comment like five times already -- so I think I just need to nope out of this thread, at this point.
Stay safe, wash your hands, wear a proper mask, get vaccinated if you can, and send a thank you card to Tony Fauci because he's the only reason our death count is only at WW2 levels and not an order of magnitude higher.
posted by basalganglia at 3:12 PM on January 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
EXACTLY.
Ryvar, I have no doubt that the p100 masks with an exhalation valve are better at filtering inhaled particles; they are for sure more comfortable due to lack of humidity/moisture build-up close to the skin.
Because that moisture is heading out into a potentially infectious cloud that will kill someone else.
Here is a convenient video which explains why exhalation valves are unsafe for those around you.
This insistence on ignoring source control fits in nicely with the Standard American "I'm safe so fuck you" mentality, but I'm disappointed to see it here on Metafilter. I'm trying really hard to take my own earlier advice about kindness -- I've rewritten this comment like five times already -- so I think I just need to nope out of this thread, at this point.
Stay safe, wash your hands, wear a proper mask, get vaccinated if you can, and send a thank you card to Tony Fauci because he's the only reason our death count is only at WW2 levels and not an order of magnitude higher.
posted by basalganglia at 3:12 PM on January 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
So if I understand correctly from the arguments in this thread over which masks are more effective and whether the shortage of N95s still exists and whether KN95/N95/etc. masks bought online can be trusted, the tl;dr is we not only don't know but also we have no way of knowing any of these things. Incredible.
posted by MiraK at 3:32 PM on January 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 3:32 PM on January 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
According to the largest ever study of disease transmission, most people who are infected with COVID-19 spread it to less than one person, which is good news.
The bad news is that 5% of infected are responsible for 80% of infections.
We currently have no way of knowing who is a superspreader, so we all have to behave as if we are a super spreader.
Masks don't stop COVID-19 completely, but they do serve as a reminder that we are in a pandemic and should maintain social distancing of 2 metres (or 6 feet). The importance of good ventilation cannot be overstated.
posted by asok at 3:34 PM on January 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
The bad news is that 5% of infected are responsible for 80% of infections.
We currently have no way of knowing who is a superspreader, so we all have to behave as if we are a super spreader.
Masks don't stop COVID-19 completely, but they do serve as a reminder that we are in a pandemic and should maintain social distancing of 2 metres (or 6 feet). The importance of good ventilation cannot be overstated.
posted by asok at 3:34 PM on January 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
I ordered 3Ms for just that reason, but I expect to have a prolonged struggle with the vendor on my hands if they don't check out. And even then I'm not 100% confident someone isn't simply giving away the verification algorithm, which would be worth a lot of money in sales of "verified" cheap fakes. But the new variant has me a little shook.
posted by praemunire at 3:49 PM on January 23, 2021
posted by praemunire at 3:49 PM on January 23, 2021
We can poke around the CDC's site here and try to find out if the masks we've bought are good, but that requires finding the information and also that the masks we bought are really what they say they are.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:57 PM on January 23, 2021
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:57 PM on January 23, 2021
The fact that there is any kind of scarcity of N95 masks in the USA a year into this pandemic is an indication of how horrible the Trump administration was. This is a simple product to manufacture, simple die cutters and heat presses — minimal labor required.
posted by interogative mood at 4:09 PM on January 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:09 PM on January 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
Printable Exhalation Filter adapter for the 3M 6500QL series at Thingiverse. There are similar for other 3M respirator model lines, especially the series with a forward-pointing exhale valve.
My wife’s the 3D printing expert around here, and I’ve asked her to print two for ours. We’ll see how they work with the P95 inserts I ordered. It won’t be any better than us wearing N95 masks for other people, but will probably beat the pants off the stock membrane (obviously a full P100 filter on exhalation would raise serious pressure/backflow concerns vs the intakes).
A standardized P100 in/P95 out model really ought to exist.
posted by Ryvar at 4:14 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
My wife’s the 3D printing expert around here, and I’ve asked her to print two for ours. We’ll see how they work with the P95 inserts I ordered. It won’t be any better than us wearing N95 masks for other people, but will probably beat the pants off the stock membrane (obviously a full P100 filter on exhalation would raise serious pressure/backflow concerns vs the intakes).
A standardized P100 in/P95 out model really ought to exist.
posted by Ryvar at 4:14 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is a simple product to manufacture, simple die cutters and heat presses — minimal labor required.
The required nonwoven polypropylene was in short supply in March. I don't think it's a super high-tech material but it does need specialized machinery. Of course, last January the Trump administration didn't bother spending any money on domestic N95 manufacture and it didn't get better.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:16 PM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
The required nonwoven polypropylene was in short supply in March. I don't think it's a super high-tech material but it does need specialized machinery. Of course, last January the Trump administration didn't bother spending any money on domestic N95 manufacture and it didn't get better.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:16 PM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
A 3D printer might as well be a spaceship for me. I have about as much chance as having either available for use, so...this conversation gets ever more abstract.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:38 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:38 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
One thing I realized this evening is that if you wear a buff pulled up over your mask it cuts down on fogging, presumably because it pulls your mask closer to your skin.
posted by praemunire at 5:41 PM on January 23, 2021
posted by praemunire at 5:41 PM on January 23, 2021
What’s the Difference Between N95 Masks and KN95 Masks?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:42 PM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:42 PM on January 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
The vaccine can’t be 100% effective, and Biden was wearing cloth masks several months ago. It was so weird and concerning.
It's just anecdotal data, but the Trump administration didn't use masks and dozens of his closest associates got the covid infection. On the other hand, the Biden crew used mostly cloth masks and in spite of traveling around the country and meeting large groups, I don't think anyone got covid.
It could mean that social distancing practices and cloth masks, while not perfect, are good enough.
posted by JackFlash at 5:52 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's just anecdotal data, but the Trump administration didn't use masks and dozens of his closest associates got the covid infection. On the other hand, the Biden crew used mostly cloth masks and in spite of traveling around the country and meeting large groups, I don't think anyone got covid.
It could mean that social distancing practices and cloth masks, while not perfect, are good enough.
posted by JackFlash at 5:52 PM on January 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
Harris had to quarantine after some of (one of?) her staff members tested positive for COVID.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:19 PM on January 23, 2021
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:19 PM on January 23, 2021
Masks are the brown M&Ms of the pandemic.
If you see someone not wearing them, or wearing them wrong, they are doing many other things wrong too and should be avoided even more than other people.
posted by mark k at 7:40 PM on January 23, 2021 [26 favorites]
If you see someone not wearing them, or wearing them wrong, they are doing many other things wrong too and should be avoided even more than other people.
posted by mark k at 7:40 PM on January 23, 2021 [26 favorites]
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned as a cause for mask slippage: many earloop masks don’t fit tightly enough against the face. I wear a silicone mask extender/ear saver piece that catches the two ends of the ear loops and goes around the back of my head. It’s adjustable, according to which button nubbin you stretch to, and my mask is staying put.
posted by Jazz Hands at 7:43 PM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Jazz Hands at 7:43 PM on January 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Biden White House also checks everyone everyone entering the White House. The check involves a screening questionnaire — answer truthfully on pain of perjury and a PCR test using a nasal swab. While you wait for test results they keep you in a little individualized area with plastic barriers up to limit possible infections. You have to wear a mask most of the time in the building. In contrast the Trump White House was doing spot checking and using spit tests. Masks were not required anywhere.
posted by interogative mood at 10:16 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 10:16 PM on January 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I wear homemade masks only. They're tight-woven, double layer cotton with a nose wire. They fit so well that you can easily see them move in and out when I breathe. I've never had one slip down. They are washed after each use.
Many people here are wearing the simple pleated disposable masks; most of them do not know or bother to tighten the nose strip. So they walk around with large gaps next to their nose. Many of them also twist the ear loops and end up with gaps on each cheek; you can often even see their nose when looking at them from the side.
Worn like this, these masks are only effective as a catcher for direct droplets, and do nothing for aerosols. And those are the people who don't let them slip. I don't even want to talk about those.
I don't think my homemade cloth masks are the biggest problem here. I think that over here, just like overseas where most of you are, the biggest problem is people not knowing or caring how to handle a mask.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:06 AM on January 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
Many people here are wearing the simple pleated disposable masks; most of them do not know or bother to tighten the nose strip. So they walk around with large gaps next to their nose. Many of them also twist the ear loops and end up with gaps on each cheek; you can often even see their nose when looking at them from the side.
Worn like this, these masks are only effective as a catcher for direct droplets, and do nothing for aerosols. And those are the people who don't let them slip. I don't even want to talk about those.
I don't think my homemade cloth masks are the biggest problem here. I think that over here, just like overseas where most of you are, the biggest problem is people not knowing or caring how to handle a mask.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:06 AM on January 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
I've been using the securing strap from fixthemask.com and zubrex brand surgical masks. I think the seal obtained that way (sides, glasses fogging issues, etc) is better than the N95 masks I've tried, and the surgical masks are super cheap and have good filtration and breathability.
posted by Humanzee at 8:02 AM on January 24, 2021
posted by Humanzee at 8:02 AM on January 24, 2021
This link from the CDC might help those who want to know if their chosen masks might be counterfeit.
posted by cooker girl at 8:46 AM on January 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 8:46 AM on January 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
France and Germany are now banning cloth masks from public transport because they are deemed ineffective against the UK coronavirus variant. I've been wearing really tight cloth masks but I'm going to look into the KN95s and N95s now, I guess.
posted by Anonymous at 8:56 AM on January 24, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 8:56 AM on January 24, 2021
For what it's worth, regarding supply chain issues, I know some of the people that work at CT BioTech and can vouch for their N95 masks being legit and reasonably priced. Some of their masks are not approved for medical use, some are, but they're pretty clear on the site which are which. Relevant recent news story here.
posted by reptile at 9:21 AM on January 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by reptile at 9:21 AM on January 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't think my homemade cloth masks are the biggest problem here. I think that over here, just like overseas where most of you are, the biggest problem is people not knowing or caring how to handle a mask.
Cloth masks can be anything. That's part of the problem. A well-fitting multi-layer cotton mask with a filter in the pocket can undoubtedly be more effective than an ill-fitting N95 or surgical mask.
Unfortunately, in my city, which has very good mask compliance overall, I'm still seeing a lot of people in the grocery store wearing flimsy cloth masks that are just one thin stretchy layer of fabric. Stores require "face coverings" and make no distinction on what qualities they should have. My employer supplied masks to its employees a few months back, which I thought was great, but the masks turned out to be terrible and useless.
I have no idea how many people who wear obviously ineffective masks are only doing it for appearances, or if they really think it's offering good protection. Getting Americans to wear masks in public has been a major hurdle to begin with, and as such a lot of people are still pretty clueless on the topic of masks even if they're wearing them.
I hope we will see more public education efforts (more than just the news showing some new study that shows whatever) to help people make the right choices with masks. Some of the grocery store employees near me have consistently worn masks that are falling off their face ever since the store started requiring masks. These guys are constantly talking every time I see them, with their masks falling off. I don't know if they know they're not doing masks properly or what their manager is telling them about how to wear masks or what kinds of masks are appropriate.
We have to remember that most people don't sit around reading science articles in their free time, and there's a whole lot of easily digestible bad information being shoved in people's faces by other means.
posted by wondermouse at 9:27 AM on January 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Cloth masks can be anything. That's part of the problem. A well-fitting multi-layer cotton mask with a filter in the pocket can undoubtedly be more effective than an ill-fitting N95 or surgical mask.
Unfortunately, in my city, which has very good mask compliance overall, I'm still seeing a lot of people in the grocery store wearing flimsy cloth masks that are just one thin stretchy layer of fabric. Stores require "face coverings" and make no distinction on what qualities they should have. My employer supplied masks to its employees a few months back, which I thought was great, but the masks turned out to be terrible and useless.
I have no idea how many people who wear obviously ineffective masks are only doing it for appearances, or if they really think it's offering good protection. Getting Americans to wear masks in public has been a major hurdle to begin with, and as such a lot of people are still pretty clueless on the topic of masks even if they're wearing them.
I hope we will see more public education efforts (more than just the news showing some new study that shows whatever) to help people make the right choices with masks. Some of the grocery store employees near me have consistently worn masks that are falling off their face ever since the store started requiring masks. These guys are constantly talking every time I see them, with their masks falling off. I don't know if they know they're not doing masks properly or what their manager is telling them about how to wear masks or what kinds of masks are appropriate.
We have to remember that most people don't sit around reading science articles in their free time, and there's a whole lot of easily digestible bad information being shoved in people's faces by other means.
posted by wondermouse at 9:27 AM on January 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
wondermouse: Cloth masks can be anything. That's part of the problem.
I agree. There are after all no standards for what constitutes a cloth mask. And I'm sure many are just plain crappy.
Then again:
Almost any mask that actually covers the nose and mouth does help to slow down the air jet that shoots out of a person's face when they sneeze or cough. It also stops it from covering a large distance. So while not all masks filter well, pretty much all masks keep the air you exhale (or sneeze/cough out) much, much closer to your person.
https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/my-stay-home-lab-shows-how-face-coverings-can-slow-spread-disease
But of course, you still have to make sure it does cover your nose.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:51 AM on January 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I agree. There are after all no standards for what constitutes a cloth mask. And I'm sure many are just plain crappy.
Then again:
Almost any mask that actually covers the nose and mouth does help to slow down the air jet that shoots out of a person's face when they sneeze or cough. It also stops it from covering a large distance. So while not all masks filter well, pretty much all masks keep the air you exhale (or sneeze/cough out) much, much closer to your person.
https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/my-stay-home-lab-shows-how-face-coverings-can-slow-spread-disease
But of course, you still have to make sure it does cover your nose.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:51 AM on January 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have been fortunate to be able to stay out of public places (especially indoors) for the most part, so my mask usage has been limited, but basically every cloth mask I've had (a variety of two-layer woven cotton as recommended, mostly pleated, from different sources) has been difficult enough for air to pass through that I notice some air leaking around the sides rather than going through the fabric, even when it's tight. When I experiment at home with pushing the fabric tightly against my nose or mouth with my hands (to make as much of a seal as I can) and try to breath through it, it doesn't feel very breathable at all.
In comparison, surgical masks and the KN95s I've tried are permeable enough that air goes through the material, actually being filtered. If I press meltblown disposable surgical masks closer to my face at home to test, they feel reasonably breathable--they definitely impede flow a bit, but air goes through enough to breathe in a reasonable manner. This leaves me wondering if people using cloth masks (other than the ones made of knit/t-shirt fabric, which are more breathable but don't filter very well) in the real world are just mostly breathing in air that's leaking through the sides in ways they aren't noticing, and much of their exhalation is leaking out too. I can see how even just directing exhalation like that could be useful in mitigating spread of disease somewhat, but it's not going to compare to actually filtering all the air going in and out of someone's face.
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:37 AM on January 24, 2021
In comparison, surgical masks and the KN95s I've tried are permeable enough that air goes through the material, actually being filtered. If I press meltblown disposable surgical masks closer to my face at home to test, they feel reasonably breathable--they definitely impede flow a bit, but air goes through enough to breathe in a reasonable manner. This leaves me wondering if people using cloth masks (other than the ones made of knit/t-shirt fabric, which are more breathable but don't filter very well) in the real world are just mostly breathing in air that's leaking through the sides in ways they aren't noticing, and much of their exhalation is leaking out too. I can see how even just directing exhalation like that could be useful in mitigating spread of disease somewhat, but it's not going to compare to actually filtering all the air going in and out of someone's face.
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:37 AM on January 24, 2021
So, I owe basalganglia an apology: I was wrong about the exhalation valve on the 6500QL series. While it appears on close visual and cursory mechanical inspection to have a membrane layer separate from the valve, this is a trick of lighting due to the downward chute of the exhalation path shadowing the valve, and due to it not being affixed to the mask structure in an intuitive manner (gentle probing made it appear to be a separate layer from the valve flap). I spent much of today iterating through different exhalation filter combinations which involved a lot of extremely up-close work near the valve under bright lights and it was quickly apparent that during exhalation there is a direct, unimpeded path between the user and the outside environment.
I was wrong, and I'm sorry. Out of the box these are definitely worse than cloth masks for the people around you, just like other half-mask respirator models, only they're better at concealing that fact. I've flagged my initial comment and asked the mods to add a disclaimer/link to this apology.
This doesn't alter anything I said about the increased safety of P100 filters for the end user or their relative efficacy at reducing exposure. But basalganglia is correct that the basic design reflects a "fuck you, I got mine" ethos when it comes to halting the spread of Covid; I hate that ethos as I hate Hell, all Montagues, and things I associate with Texas.
I experimented with a LOT of different filter combinations today to determine what was possible without causing reverse flow issues on the intake valves, erring on the side of caution by first removing the main disc filters so that their airflow impedence would serve solely as an additional safety margin on top of the basic intake valve. The result was less than I hoped for: really just one high threadcount cotton fabric layer equivalent to a decent cloth mask, or one of the three non-woven polypropylene layers from a P95 filter. That's it: anything beyond the level of exhalation filtering you'd get from high density cotton fabric will overpower the intake valves and result in reverse flow, negating the entire design.
In further testing, putting filter media after the exhalation valve is significantly better than before for reducing the risk of reverse flow: that Thingiverse design I posted earlier is absolutely the way to go for filtering exhalation on a respirator mask. Most frustratingly, because we're running short on 3D printer PLA I won't be able to test that design for another couple days.
In summary: I again apologize to basalganglia. You can, with considerable effort, make these as safe for others around you as a high threadcount cloth mask, but not substantially safer without a significant redesign. Out of the box they really are about as dangerous to the people around you as leaving your nose outside the mask.
posted by Ryvar at 8:42 PM on January 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
I was wrong, and I'm sorry. Out of the box these are definitely worse than cloth masks for the people around you, just like other half-mask respirator models, only they're better at concealing that fact. I've flagged my initial comment and asked the mods to add a disclaimer/link to this apology.
This doesn't alter anything I said about the increased safety of P100 filters for the end user or their relative efficacy at reducing exposure. But basalganglia is correct that the basic design reflects a "fuck you, I got mine" ethos when it comes to halting the spread of Covid; I hate that ethos as I hate Hell, all Montagues, and things I associate with Texas.
I experimented with a LOT of different filter combinations today to determine what was possible without causing reverse flow issues on the intake valves, erring on the side of caution by first removing the main disc filters so that their airflow impedence would serve solely as an additional safety margin on top of the basic intake valve. The result was less than I hoped for: really just one high threadcount cotton fabric layer equivalent to a decent cloth mask, or one of the three non-woven polypropylene layers from a P95 filter. That's it: anything beyond the level of exhalation filtering you'd get from high density cotton fabric will overpower the intake valves and result in reverse flow, negating the entire design.
In further testing, putting filter media after the exhalation valve is significantly better than before for reducing the risk of reverse flow: that Thingiverse design I posted earlier is absolutely the way to go for filtering exhalation on a respirator mask. Most frustratingly, because we're running short on 3D printer PLA I won't be able to test that design for another couple days.
In summary: I again apologize to basalganglia. You can, with considerable effort, make these as safe for others around you as a high threadcount cloth mask, but not substantially safer without a significant redesign. Out of the box they really are about as dangerous to the people around you as leaving your nose outside the mask.
posted by Ryvar at 8:42 PM on January 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
This has been an interesting saga on the value of professional testing and certification rather than amateur PPE design. Even smart people with 3D printers and an endless appetite for engineering side projects make mistakes because they are not specialists.
We need specialists to design, test, and distribute masks that "mostly work" for a stressed and poor doordash driver who really doesn't care about covid and wants to do the bare minimum. Which means we need to distribute acceptable masks with easily identifiable marks and start putting distributors of substandard PPE out of business (please sue Amazon, someone).
posted by benzenedream at 10:47 PM on January 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
We need specialists to design, test, and distribute masks that "mostly work" for a stressed and poor doordash driver who really doesn't care about covid and wants to do the bare minimum. Which means we need to distribute acceptable masks with easily identifiable marks and start putting distributors of substandard PPE out of business (please sue Amazon, someone).
posted by benzenedream at 10:47 PM on January 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
You can, with considerable effort, make these as safe for others around you as a high threadcount cloth mask, but not substantially safer without a significant redesign.
And you STILL do not have any data showing your mask is safe enough. Most of us are similarly in the dark.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:46 AM on January 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
And you STILL do not have any data showing your mask is safe enough. Most of us are similarly in the dark.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:46 AM on January 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
KN95s and KF94s can be a good stopgap for people in the US until the US gets its act together (if it ever does.) NIOSH tests some of them. It's hard to google some of those companies to find places to buy them. Dr. Puri (KF94) and Powecom (KN95) are two brands that tested well and that I found to be available from non-sketchy sources (the company Be Healthy and the company Bona Fide Masks, respectively.)
Aaron Collins (an engineer who did his masters thesis on aerosols) tests KF94s and some KN95s too (he has a pretty sophisticated setup) and does Youtube videos about them. He says the KN94s he's gotten that are made in South Korea are generally effective and authentic. I believe his assessment was that each mask can each be used effectively for about 30-40 hours *in an office-type environment.*
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:14 AM on January 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Aaron Collins (an engineer who did his masters thesis on aerosols) tests KF94s and some KN95s too (he has a pretty sophisticated setup) and does Youtube videos about them. He says the KN94s he's gotten that are made in South Korea are generally effective and authentic. I believe his assessment was that each mask can each be used effectively for about 30-40 hours *in an office-type environment.*
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:14 AM on January 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Links to places to purchase good masks would help. I'm unlikely to go the respirator route, but valid Korean KN95 and KF94 masks would be good. I've made it this far and it would really suck to get it now, and the spike came to Maine. Staying in is such a drag.
posted by theora55 at 7:42 AM on January 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 7:42 AM on January 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
We need specialists to design, test, and distribute masks that "mostly work" for a stressed and poor doordash driver who really doesn't care about covid and wants to do the bare minimum.
We already have the data that a regular mask, any kind, works well enough for that guy (and you at the grocery store) in all but the worst, geographically small hotspots. If they didn't, then that guy would be down with COVID already.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:23 AM on January 25, 2021
We already have the data that a regular mask, any kind, works well enough for that guy (and you at the grocery store) in all but the worst, geographically small hotspots. If they didn't, then that guy would be down with COVID already.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:23 AM on January 25, 2021
Some of those doordash drivers and grocery store workers certainly ARE "down with COVID already." Working "well enough" is subjective. If it's possible to distribute masks that will protect the wearer more substantially (and it is, because Korea did it months and months ago), leaving service workers to their own devices (which will mostly be subpar masks that help slow spread in the big picture but don't offer those service workers great protection) isn't really good enough.
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:37 AM on January 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 10:37 AM on January 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Some of those doordash drivers and grocery store workers certainly ARE "down with COVID already.
Sure they are, but we have no info about their mask usage. But, distributing high quality masks by the government (certainly a good idea) says nothing about individual users wearing them correctly.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2021
Sure they are, but we have no info about their mask usage. But, distributing high quality masks by the government (certainly a good idea) says nothing about individual users wearing them correctly.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2021
We already have the data that a regular mask, any kind, works well enough for that guy (and you at the grocery store) in all but the worst, geographically small hotspots. If they didn't, then that guy would be down with COVID already.
More Than 800 SoCal Supermarket Workers Test Positive For COVID-19
posted by benzenedream at 2:31 PM on January 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
More Than 800 SoCal Supermarket Workers Test Positive For COVID-19
posted by benzenedream at 2:31 PM on January 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
We already have the data that a regular mask, any kind, works well enough for that guy (and you at the grocery store) in all but the worst, geographically small hotspots. If they didn't, then that guy would be down with COVID already.
As has been pointed out, lots of people are "down with COVID already".
Here are the riskiest jobs during the coronavirus pandemic, according to a UCSF study
As has been pointed out, lots of people are "down with COVID already".
Here are the riskiest jobs during the coronavirus pandemic, according to a UCSF study
A new study has found essential workers, especially those in the food and transportation sector are at the greatest risk of death among Californians of working age during the COVID-19 pandemic.UCSF Research Shows Industries in Which Workers Are Most Likely to Die From COVID
Cooks hold the most hazardous occupation among essential workers in the state with 828 deaths. According to UCSF researchers, that role has the highest "risk ratio for mortality."
They found that among the deadliest jobs during the pandemic were restaurant and agricultural work. People in those industries saw their chances of death double to 40%.posted by Lexica at 4:05 PM on January 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
What’s worse, researchers found that Latinos in those industries saw their chance of death go up to about 60%.
“It’s communities that have the least means, the most need to work, and the least power within their workplace to make sure they can keep themselves safe,” said Bibbins-Domingo.
Sadly, the sloppy language of "saw their chance of death go up to 60%" is the kind of thing that makes many people roll their eyes and ignore the reality of the situation. Nobody of working age has a 60% chance of death from COVID-19. A 60% increase in the chance of death is obviously quite substantial, but people inclined to look the other way won't take the time to understand that's what is meant.
Even though it's a small increase in absolute terms thanks to the relatively low initial chance of death in literally any occupation, it turns into a rather large number when the population size is sufficiently large, as it is in the US, hence the hundreds of thousands that have already died.
posted by wierdo at 7:42 PM on January 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Even though it's a small increase in absolute terms thanks to the relatively low initial chance of death in literally any occupation, it turns into a rather large number when the population size is sufficiently large, as it is in the US, hence the hundreds of thousands that have already died.
posted by wierdo at 7:42 PM on January 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
US consumers may be about to get the first standards for face masks
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:11 PM on January 26, 2021
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:11 PM on January 26, 2021
That mini-article does not meet the criteria for even a 0.5 level of concrete details.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:17 PM on January 26, 2021
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:17 PM on January 26, 2021
Uh well since it's says "about to get" I wouldn't expect it to have all the info. Still pertinent to the thread.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:20 AM on January 27, 2021
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:20 AM on January 27, 2021
I dint understand why, a year into this, N95 masks are still so hard to find, so expensive, and so rarely used. Why haven’t we had a Finland baby-box style Covid care package mailed to us the Federal Gov’t? N95 masks, hand sanitizer, info packet, box of gloves, face shields, etc?
posted by karst at 8:46 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by karst at 8:46 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Why haven’t we had a Finland baby-box style Covid care package
The US Postal Service was set to mail out ~650m masks to everybody back in April.
As with many things in this category, it's a simple but unpleasant answer. Those with the power/capability to do so didn't want to.
There's a lot of ways it can and has been dressed up, but that's what it comes to. Why haven't we gotten stay-home payments ongoing? Didn't want to. Why are we still not getting $2000, negotiating downward, delayed to March? Didn't want to. Why hasn't N95 production been nationalized (or at the least, purchasing anchored to encourage expansion of production)? Didn't want to.
Even in more mundane times we haven't wanted to do the baby-box thing, so I'm not sure what would change now. It's not who we are, regardless of how much we might wish to be the sort of people who *do* want to do that. Wishing for people who don't care about you & me to start caring is sure a strategy, but I'm not sure how effective it will be.
Ought we care, and do all these things? Heartily. But you know what they say about getting an 'is' from an 'ought'.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
The US Postal Service was set to mail out ~650m masks to everybody back in April.
As with many things in this category, it's a simple but unpleasant answer. Those with the power/capability to do so didn't want to.
There's a lot of ways it can and has been dressed up, but that's what it comes to. Why haven't we gotten stay-home payments ongoing? Didn't want to. Why are we still not getting $2000, negotiating downward, delayed to March? Didn't want to. Why hasn't N95 production been nationalized (or at the least, purchasing anchored to encourage expansion of production)? Didn't want to.
Even in more mundane times we haven't wanted to do the baby-box thing, so I'm not sure what would change now. It's not who we are, regardless of how much we might wish to be the sort of people who *do* want to do that. Wishing for people who don't care about you & me to start caring is sure a strategy, but I'm not sure how effective it will be.
Ought we care, and do all these things? Heartily. But you know what they say about getting an 'is' from an 'ought'.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
The masks I was given in 2020 by the Commerce Department, and the masks I gave out for FEMA, were pretty lousy. So it’s not just that masks should be free but they should be good masks. That’s crazy talk, I know.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:17 AM on January 27, 2021
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:17 AM on January 27, 2021
US consumers now have the first national standards for face mask quality
And less than a month later...
(Sorry for the workaround, couldn't figure out on CNN to permalink to their own stuff, it was lost in a "updates" type scroll.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:03 PM on February 16, 2021
And less than a month later...
(Sorry for the workaround, couldn't figure out on CNN to permalink to their own stuff, it was lost in a "updates" type scroll.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:03 PM on February 16, 2021
Consumers in stores would be able to evaluate the quality of masks on store shelves from the labeling on the packaging. If a mask has ASTM labeling, it could ensure the customer that product has met the testing and quality requirements outlined in “ASTM F3502."
Or it could just mean that the manufacturer printed "ASTM" on the box. It's like my driver's ed teacher told us: the only thing a turn signal means is that it works.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:05 PM on February 17, 2021
Or it could just mean that the manufacturer printed "ASTM" on the box. It's like my driver's ed teacher told us: the only thing a turn signal means is that it works.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:05 PM on February 17, 2021
Doing that would be a really good way for the manufacturer and/or retailer to get the shit fined out of themselves and find themselves on the receiving end of a class action for fraud that would settle for enough money to make almost any of them think twice about it.
posted by wierdo at 5:05 PM on February 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by wierdo at 5:05 PM on February 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by chavenet at 4:32 PM on January 22, 2021 [7 favorites]