"Off-puttingly truthful": growing up in a family with no filters
January 29, 2021 12:39 PM Subscribe
"After growing up in a family that never lied, I spent decades being off-puttingly truthful."An essay by Michael Leviton, in The Atlantic.
I'm really having trouble seeing this "habit" as anything but narcissism on the parents' part. Honesty is great, yeah. Emotional intelligence? Also important! Being able to read and understand social and cultural norms? Really helps a kid get by in the world! Phatic communication? Absolutely serves a purpose and doesn't get enough credit for it!
Pretending you don't need any of those things because Honesty will get you through? Not gonna lead you to Avatarhood, my dudes.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:53 PM on January 29, 2021 [43 favorites]
Pretending you don't need any of those things because Honesty will get you through? Not gonna lead you to Avatarhood, my dudes.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:53 PM on January 29, 2021 [43 favorites]
Mm. Veracity is a better balance. Unfortunately, truth is cruel, lies are kind. Ish.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:57 PM on January 29, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:57 PM on January 29, 2021
It's interesting how families develop their own little...functional pathologies, I guess you'd call it. Genuinely weird ways of doing things. Most often it's along the lines of "I eat my tortilla chips with cottage cheese" but there are outliers.
Probably in the far past when most people didn't travel much, there would be functional pathologies and everyone in the village would just...do the thing. One's mind immediately goes to horror movie territory, but it's probably mostly "we celebrate St. Christopher's Day with a weeklong festival of Christopher fishcakes and dancing with horse puppets", etc.
I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing because I too grew up in a rather odd family with a family narrative of "we are different [and maybe slightly better]". I spent my twenties and thirties trying to be normal and mostly succeeding, mostly for the best. But I did lose some stuff along the way, and I'm not totally sure that the wages of normalcy have been worth it - a lot of it was learning to do normal gender things and downplay innocent but non-standard interests, stand up for my beliefs less, etc.
On balance, I think that my family was very different indeed and while we weren't "better" than other people, some of our oddball values were "better" than a lot of the social norms I grew up with.
I'd kind of like to talk to this guy's parents, because the chain of events that produced my family was way more contingent than it seemed to me as a kid. As a kid, I felt like we were Part Of Something, values-wise, and like my parents were living by some settled code. But looking back, I realize that if they'd had different adolescences or gone to different colleges and basically had less social adversity, they would have been a lot more like everyone else.
posted by Frowner at 1:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [31 favorites]
Probably in the far past when most people didn't travel much, there would be functional pathologies and everyone in the village would just...do the thing. One's mind immediately goes to horror movie territory, but it's probably mostly "we celebrate St. Christopher's Day with a weeklong festival of Christopher fishcakes and dancing with horse puppets", etc.
I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing because I too grew up in a rather odd family with a family narrative of "we are different [and maybe slightly better]". I spent my twenties and thirties trying to be normal and mostly succeeding, mostly for the best. But I did lose some stuff along the way, and I'm not totally sure that the wages of normalcy have been worth it - a lot of it was learning to do normal gender things and downplay innocent but non-standard interests, stand up for my beliefs less, etc.
On balance, I think that my family was very different indeed and while we weren't "better" than other people, some of our oddball values were "better" than a lot of the social norms I grew up with.
I'd kind of like to talk to this guy's parents, because the chain of events that produced my family was way more contingent than it seemed to me as a kid. As a kid, I felt like we were Part Of Something, values-wise, and like my parents were living by some settled code. But looking back, I realize that if they'd had different adolescences or gone to different colleges and basically had less social adversity, they would have been a lot more like everyone else.
posted by Frowner at 1:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [31 favorites]
I'm learning about neurodivergance & it feels relevant here that one of the commonly noted symptoms of autism spectrum is a discomfort with lying, that I definitely share & recognized in his description of his parents. I mean, this part? The mom wasn't wrong:
“Well,” I remember my mom saying, “she certainly does a lot of hypocritical things.” When my paternal grandmother told Mom not to speak ill of her own mother, Mom replied that lying to me would mean I’d either stop trusting my own observations or stop trusting her, and that she wasn’t satisfied with either of those outcomes.
I actually couldn't find anything I disagreed with his parents or his ex about, except that maybe they didn't notice their son needed a little moderation. It's not that you HAVE to lie, you just have to recognize when someone else doesn't want to hear what you have to say.
I find that Buddhism's guidance on Right Speech has been helpful to me & might be helpful to the writer. Don't deceive, don't start drama, don't abuse, don't gossip. Another helpful quote I think of often is, Is it truthful? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
posted by bleep at 1:11 PM on January 29, 2021 [47 favorites]
“Well,” I remember my mom saying, “she certainly does a lot of hypocritical things.” When my paternal grandmother told Mom not to speak ill of her own mother, Mom replied that lying to me would mean I’d either stop trusting my own observations or stop trusting her, and that she wasn’t satisfied with either of those outcomes.
I actually couldn't find anything I disagreed with his parents or his ex about, except that maybe they didn't notice their son needed a little moderation. It's not that you HAVE to lie, you just have to recognize when someone else doesn't want to hear what you have to say.
I find that Buddhism's guidance on Right Speech has been helpful to me & might be helpful to the writer. Don't deceive, don't start drama, don't abuse, don't gossip. Another helpful quote I think of often is, Is it truthful? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
posted by bleep at 1:11 PM on January 29, 2021 [47 favorites]
My insistence on honesty escalated when I was 17 and I first attended “therapy camp” with my family, where we camped out with a few hundred others in tents in the woods and participated in extreme, public therapy sessions. I spent one week each summer watching hundreds of adults tell their most vulnerable stories, sobbing in front of the audience. With my newfound sense of the feelings boiling unexpressed beneath all the facades, I’d rant to anyone who would listen about how ridiculous it was that everyone hid so much. I insisted that if we could all read one another’s minds and see the truth of others’ pain, we’d relate, and all love one another. I couldn’t understand why others valued what they called “privacy.”
.....
NOOO!
People cannot view language or communication as a "sum of it's parts" experience. Body language or social balance is often where the heart of communication lives. This is just unfortunate for this person. It's slightly like having parents raise their child to distrust pants.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:14 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
.....
NOOO!
People cannot view language or communication as a "sum of it's parts" experience. Body language or social balance is often where the heart of communication lives. This is just unfortunate for this person. It's slightly like having parents raise their child to distrust pants.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:14 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Am I the only one who that camp sounds like heaven to?
posted by bleep at 1:15 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:15 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Well. This guy's parents liked it, too.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:18 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:18 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Small or insular interactions where people can unfold or cultivate a petri dish of thoughts to trade are really valuable (intentional direct honesty, or direct honesty when imperative), but walking around dropping bald-truths seems not only dysfunctional, but kind of inhibiting to growth, and dysfunctional to coming to know someone else, or even yourself. Cannot recommend.
Awe. Cute wrap up, though.
"It’s now been 11 years since I started letting myself lie. I’m still probably more honest than most; I’m sure some people think I’m still too honest. But shutting up for a while has certainly softened me. These days, I try to save my honesty for those who want it. And when someone won’t be honest with me, I can understand why. I still hope people will give me the unvarnished truth. But sometimes we have to start with the script to build enough trust to throw it away."
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:24 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Awe. Cute wrap up, though.
"It’s now been 11 years since I started letting myself lie. I’m still probably more honest than most; I’m sure some people think I’m still too honest. But shutting up for a while has certainly softened me. These days, I try to save my honesty for those who want it. And when someone won’t be honest with me, I can understand why. I still hope people will give me the unvarnished truth. But sometimes we have to start with the script to build enough trust to throw it away."
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:24 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
That was a really interesting comment about family dynamics, Frowner. Thank you for sharing that.
I was interested by the author's/his family's definition of lying, because it seemed to include lying by omission, as in if you have a thought, you have to share it or else it's lying. That seems a lot of pressure to put on a child, or on anyone!
I was also interested by the way the dad explained to the kid that people didn't always say what they really felt because "they’re afraid that if they say what they really feel, people won’t like them. And they’d rather be liked than be honest." I mean, this is true sometimes, for sure. But it completely elides the fact that sometimes people are acting out of kindness when they withhold or put a softer spin on their true thoughts. It also overlooks the fact that it's okay for people to have private thoughts--that they should have the right to keep some of their thoughts private, and that really isn't the same as lying.
One of my family members does not do small talk--every conversation with them is a deep introspection. They are a very smart and interesting person, and I genuinely enjoy many of our conversations, but it can be quite exhausting for me because there's no warm up. They just jump right in to asking really quite personal questions about my innermost thoughts. When I'm prepared for it, it's OK, but I find it a little jarring to go from not having talked to this person for a while (so neither of us is really caught up on what the other person has been doing for the last few months) to what can feel like a friendly interrogation on my deepest feelings about various weighty existential topics.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:33 PM on January 29, 2021 [21 favorites]
I was interested by the author's/his family's definition of lying, because it seemed to include lying by omission, as in if you have a thought, you have to share it or else it's lying. That seems a lot of pressure to put on a child, or on anyone!
I was also interested by the way the dad explained to the kid that people didn't always say what they really felt because "they’re afraid that if they say what they really feel, people won’t like them. And they’d rather be liked than be honest." I mean, this is true sometimes, for sure. But it completely elides the fact that sometimes people are acting out of kindness when they withhold or put a softer spin on their true thoughts. It also overlooks the fact that it's okay for people to have private thoughts--that they should have the right to keep some of their thoughts private, and that really isn't the same as lying.
One of my family members does not do small talk--every conversation with them is a deep introspection. They are a very smart and interesting person, and I genuinely enjoy many of our conversations, but it can be quite exhausting for me because there's no warm up. They just jump right in to asking really quite personal questions about my innermost thoughts. When I'm prepared for it, it's OK, but I find it a little jarring to go from not having talked to this person for a while (so neither of us is really caught up on what the other person has been doing for the last few months) to what can feel like a friendly interrogation on my deepest feelings about various weighty existential topics.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:33 PM on January 29, 2021 [21 favorites]
"But it completely elides the fact that sometimes people are acting out of kindness when they withhold or put a softer spin on their true thoughts." People also need* to be able to experience this on both ends, in general, as omission by kindness often allows circumstantial healing or growth.
If you're approaching a piano student, you don't immediately criticize what's wrong, you emphasize everything right and hopefully round the imbalances, later.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:37 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you're approaching a piano student, you don't immediately criticize what's wrong, you emphasize everything right and hopefully round the imbalances, later.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:37 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
Hot take: Anything you say should be at least two of true, kind and necessary.
posted by sourcequench at 1:40 PM on January 29, 2021 [61 favorites]
posted by sourcequench at 1:40 PM on January 29, 2021 [61 favorites]
I'm learning about neurodivergance & it feels relevant here that one of the commonly noted symptoms of autism spectrum is a discomfort with lying,
Common, maybe, but nobody should make a generalization on this point. Neurodivergent people are just as diverse as neurotypicals. My kid is autistic and lies occasionally, mostly whenever it will smooth his way. He's a kid, I get it, and I'm doing my best to instill a sense of the importance of honesty and also when his opinion isn't necessary. We don't all need to share all of our thoughts.
posted by JenMarie at 1:48 PM on January 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Common, maybe, but nobody should make a generalization on this point. Neurodivergent people are just as diverse as neurotypicals. My kid is autistic and lies occasionally, mostly whenever it will smooth his way. He's a kid, I get it, and I'm doing my best to instill a sense of the importance of honesty and also when his opinion isn't necessary. We don't all need to share all of our thoughts.
posted by JenMarie at 1:48 PM on January 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Because people don't always RTFA, I want to point out that what the author is referring to as "off-puttingly truthful" is not the sort of "brutal honesty / I tell it like it is" cruelty that is prevalent among some other people:
When I say that I spent decades being off-puttingly truthful, many assume that I used honesty as an excuse to insult people; I’m aware that there are many such people, going around insisting that they’re “just being honest” when they’re actually being cruel. My honesty did occasionally offend people, such as if I admitted that I’d forgotten someone’s name or if I didn’t feign interest when I was bored. But insulting people wasn’t nearly as much of a problem as making them uncomfortable. Even close friends would squirm when I’d gush about how much I liked them or when I’d tell a personal story that moved me to tears.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:54 PM on January 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
When I say that I spent decades being off-puttingly truthful, many assume that I used honesty as an excuse to insult people; I’m aware that there are many such people, going around insisting that they’re “just being honest” when they’re actually being cruel. My honesty did occasionally offend people, such as if I admitted that I’d forgotten someone’s name or if I didn’t feign interest when I was bored. But insulting people wasn’t nearly as much of a problem as making them uncomfortable. Even close friends would squirm when I’d gush about how much I liked them or when I’d tell a personal story that moved me to tears.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:54 PM on January 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
"Even close friends would squirm when I’d gush about how much I liked them or when I’d tell a personal story that moved me to tears." It's probably because it's psychological flooding.
If people aren't granted a gradual build in understanding, it undermines the trust or rapport/ritual in the situation. Most people aren't raised with this level of rawness, so someone bawling about their reaction to Saving Private Ryan begins to look like a mental imbalance, or unwanted contact.
This is also a reason "celebrities"/people-of-notoriety" deserve to just eat their fucking dinner without someone waving a camera around. They may not have ultimately chosen their disposition and it's an unusual, psychologically flooded space to inhabit.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:02 PM on January 29, 2021 [13 favorites]
If people aren't granted a gradual build in understanding, it undermines the trust or rapport/ritual in the situation. Most people aren't raised with this level of rawness, so someone bawling about their reaction to Saving Private Ryan begins to look like a mental imbalance, or unwanted contact.
This is also a reason "celebrities"/people-of-notoriety" deserve to just eat their fucking dinner without someone waving a camera around. They may not have ultimately chosen their disposition and it's an unusual, psychologically flooded space to inhabit.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:02 PM on January 29, 2021 [13 favorites]
My insistence on honesty escalated when I was 17 and I first attended “therapy camp” with my family, where we camped out with a few hundred others in tents in the woods and participated in extreme, public therapy sessions. I spent one week each summer watching hundreds of adults tell their most vulnerable stories, sobbing in front of the audience.
When I read this my skeleton crawled out of my skin and threw itself into the SEA.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:02 PM on January 29, 2021 [68 favorites]
When I read this my skeleton crawled out of my skin and threw itself into the SEA.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:02 PM on January 29, 2021 [68 favorites]
People also need to be able to reflect introspective honesty (which may prove to evolve later, as perception sometimes does) in private company, to register whether or not what they perceive is actually within reason or accurate.
This person probably felt confused and alienated half the time. It seems uncertain whether they would've cultivated a protective inner core, this way.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:33 PM on January 29, 2021
This person probably felt confused and alienated half the time. It seems uncertain whether they would've cultivated a protective inner core, this way.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:33 PM on January 29, 2021
Great post and great comments! MetaFilter: there are outliers.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:37 PM on January 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:37 PM on January 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
I heard this guy’s story on This American Life a few years ago. Some of the examples he provided on TAL more conveyed than this article that honesty to this family meant, “say whatever you’re thinking.” Restraining yourself from saying what you’re thinking is wrong, to them. I just found that conception of honesty as so odd. Honesty to me means not intentionally misleading others. Saying whatever you’re thinking is a kind of cruelty whether or not the author thinks of it that way.
This guy has clearly made an entire career out of his family’s idiosyncratic idea about what honesty is so maybe there is also some embellishment going on here.
posted by scantee at 2:37 PM on January 29, 2021 [15 favorites]
This guy has clearly made an entire career out of his family’s idiosyncratic idea about what honesty is so maybe there is also some embellishment going on here.
posted by scantee at 2:37 PM on January 29, 2021 [15 favorites]
"Honesty to me means not intentionally misleading others. Saying whatever you’re thinking is a kind of cruelty whether or not the author thinks of it that way." Yes. A sense of veracity cultivates self-confidence and trust. It also helps people to know you're not an asshole, or maybe a neurodivergent superliar, who could use a hand.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:44 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:44 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have spent a fair chunk of my adult life fighting my ADHD-powered tendency to blurt out whatever I am thinking to whomever happens to be located in my vicinity. First I needed to understand that over-disclosure was not my friend (thank you, therapy). Now I understand that brain dumps on innocent bystanders are not a public service nor an act of virtue. They are inappropriate and sometimes rude. Belated apologies, everyone I have known for any length of time.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:45 PM on January 29, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:45 PM on January 29, 2021 [33 favorites]
Yeah this is a really... idiosyncratic definition of "lying".
Like when responding to "How are you?" there's a huge grey area between "I'm fine" and "my favorite sports team lost, my ass itches, and I'm thinking about a fantastic sex dream I had last night." It's almost narcissistic to think that it's like a personal moral imperative to share every thought. Like I just want to know if you're generally in a good mood or a bad mood, that's all.
posted by muddgirl at 3:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [28 favorites]
Like when responding to "How are you?" there's a huge grey area between "I'm fine" and "my favorite sports team lost, my ass itches, and I'm thinking about a fantastic sex dream I had last night." It's almost narcissistic to think that it's like a personal moral imperative to share every thought. Like I just want to know if you're generally in a good mood or a bad mood, that's all.
posted by muddgirl at 3:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [28 favorites]
Well I was just saying I saw 2 things that seemed similar but I guess I should have known to keep that to myself.
posted by bleep at 3:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I wonder how much "therapy camp" and things like it informed the idea that "Therapists advised people to speak their truth, not to shut up for once." I mean, yes, that can happen in instances where someone is being self-abnegating, but I think your average therapist would not encourage people to be radically honest in ways that are self-defeating, damage personal relationships, bulldoze social norms, and potentially hurt people.
The article really resonated with me, though. I went through a rough patch in my early 20s in which I wanted to have "serious conversations" and be radically honest with people, e.g., telling them how I'm actually doing when they ask. Suffice to say it was kind of a disaster. Over time I came to realize that those "unserious" conversations are actually a matter of cultural competency: the way by which we try to find communicative compromise or common ground. The AskMe comment posted by restless_nomad does such a good job of putting that into words. I wish someone had passed it to me as a note way back when!
The thing that Frowner said about it coinciding with other compromises also resonates. I am 100% on board with being considerate and trying to meet people in the middle, but I have done an increasing amount of self-editing over the years and some of that falls along the lines of gender, sexuality, class, personal interests, sense of humor, and of course politics. I wear femme business casual clothes that feel like a clownish costume but make it easier to do my job. I'm more closeted than I've ever been. I'm less likely to stand up or speak out, even in instances in which I probably should. I cut back on the self-deprecating humor and fatalism that I use to express myself because they can be really off-putting for some people. Then again, there are ways in which I have it easy and don't have to budge. It's important to meet people in the middle, but that middle isn't always in the center and getting to a typical common ground is more of a hike for some people than others.
Also if everyone could stop asking people about their weaknesses in interviews that would be swell. What if we just didn't do that?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:09 PM on January 29, 2021 [18 favorites]
The article really resonated with me, though. I went through a rough patch in my early 20s in which I wanted to have "serious conversations" and be radically honest with people, e.g., telling them how I'm actually doing when they ask. Suffice to say it was kind of a disaster. Over time I came to realize that those "unserious" conversations are actually a matter of cultural competency: the way by which we try to find communicative compromise or common ground. The AskMe comment posted by restless_nomad does such a good job of putting that into words. I wish someone had passed it to me as a note way back when!
The thing that Frowner said about it coinciding with other compromises also resonates. I am 100% on board with being considerate and trying to meet people in the middle, but I have done an increasing amount of self-editing over the years and some of that falls along the lines of gender, sexuality, class, personal interests, sense of humor, and of course politics. I wear femme business casual clothes that feel like a clownish costume but make it easier to do my job. I'm more closeted than I've ever been. I'm less likely to stand up or speak out, even in instances in which I probably should. I cut back on the self-deprecating humor and fatalism that I use to express myself because they can be really off-putting for some people. Then again, there are ways in which I have it easy and don't have to budge. It's important to meet people in the middle, but that middle isn't always in the center and getting to a typical common ground is more of a hike for some people than others.
Also if everyone could stop asking people about their weaknesses in interviews that would be swell. What if we just didn't do that?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:09 PM on January 29, 2021 [18 favorites]
Like I just want to know if you're generally in a good mood or a bad mood, that's all.
Some people don't even want to know that. "How are you?" "Fine, how are you?" is often just call and response.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:15 PM on January 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
Some people don't even want to know that. "How are you?" "Fine, how are you?" is often just call and response.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 3:15 PM on January 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
We talked constantly, sharing our most bizarre feelings, observations, and opinions; telling stories from our pasts; feeling known and understood. But talking through everything also meant obsessing over what otherwise would have been fleeting emotions.
Oh, I think this is very insightful. Expressing a thing isn't just providing a window into your mind, it's creating a feedback loop that can affect two minds.
posted by eirias at 3:17 PM on January 29, 2021 [27 favorites]
Oh, I think this is very insightful. Expressing a thing isn't just providing a window into your mind, it's creating a feedback loop that can affect two minds.
posted by eirias at 3:17 PM on January 29, 2021 [27 favorites]
^that para in particular, was beautiful.
posted by firstdaffodils at 3:19 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 3:19 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one who that camp sounds like heaven to?
My god, no. I needed the adults in my life to be more or less stable when I was a child; when Scenes from a Marriage aired in Canada around the time I was negotiating with puberty, I was devastated to see what I experienced as an emotional horror movie being so widely praised by my parents and their friends. This was adulthood? This endless empty landscape of abandonment and hurt? I suppose I still kind of feel that way, especially getting older.*
*Disclaimer: an ex of mine died on Wednesday and I may not be totally rational
posted by jokeefe at 3:26 PM on January 29, 2021 [13 favorites]
My god, no. I needed the adults in my life to be more or less stable when I was a child; when Scenes from a Marriage aired in Canada around the time I was negotiating with puberty, I was devastated to see what I experienced as an emotional horror movie being so widely praised by my parents and their friends. This was adulthood? This endless empty landscape of abandonment and hurt? I suppose I still kind of feel that way, especially getting older.*
*Disclaimer: an ex of mine died on Wednesday and I may not be totally rational
posted by jokeefe at 3:26 PM on January 29, 2021 [13 favorites]
Yeah, this is a very self centered sort of honesty. That discomfort he describes is people honestly espressing how uncomfortable it is to be neck deep in someone else's mental landscape the entire time you're around them. I have a friend like that who became that brand of honest on the back of some serious trauma, and fucking hell its hard. Everything becomes about their feelings. I remember we were hanging out in my living room one day while I was feeding one of my kids, then a baby, and she had a gas bubble go down the wrong way and she vomited, explosively, for like a minute, all over me, the couch, the walls, the works. Rather than offer any help, he shared his feelings about vomit, babies, breastfeeding and the like, honestly communicating how that must have felt terrible for the baby and a bit embarrassing for me, following me and unhappy child to the change table to do it - meanwhile another friend had already gone to find the paper towels, another had found some water and was helping my partner clean the mess up. That sort of honesty requires validation of some sort from the other party, and I had a shrieking 6 month old baby to hose off.
Which is what that discomfort is. Sometimes you gotta shut up about your feelings and let other people put their tits away first.
posted by Jilder at 4:57 PM on January 29, 2021 [40 favorites]
Which is what that discomfort is. Sometimes you gotta shut up about your feelings and let other people put their tits away first.
posted by Jilder at 4:57 PM on January 29, 2021 [40 favorites]
"- on the back of some serious trauma" Had nearly mentioned. I don't find it to be self centered or narcissistic.. it seems like an offset of trauma, or a weird social fluke. In the first case, the person has likely lost control, or is just* holding on.
Usually when someone is so "self-focused," the primitive inversion of this is their reptillian brain (basil ganglia?) signaling a distress signal. It's sad because it's nearly self defeating: they're so stressed they actually aren't really thinking of anyone or "themselves" at all, because a signal is tripping and the fear response has the body believing it's in danger. The person starts oversharing for a botched attempt at help.(The Gift of Fear references this)
It reads as insanely off-putting, but it's the person's system attempting to override or control the body in a situation perceived as dangerous, or send social signals for help (cue seemingly forced therapy sessions).
It sounds almost as though this person grew up with two parents like this.. which..well.. suuuuuucks. Its as though they imprinted the social behaviors, then found themselves fortunate enough to snap out, when maturity progressed. Not everyone is so fortunate. Yikes.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Usually when someone is so "self-focused," the primitive inversion of this is their reptillian brain (basil ganglia?) signaling a distress signal. It's sad because it's nearly self defeating: they're so stressed they actually aren't really thinking of anyone or "themselves" at all, because a signal is tripping and the fear response has the body believing it's in danger. The person starts oversharing for a botched attempt at help.(The Gift of Fear references this)
It reads as insanely off-putting, but it's the person's system attempting to override or control the body in a situation perceived as dangerous, or send social signals for help (cue seemingly forced therapy sessions).
It sounds almost as though this person grew up with two parents like this.. which..well.. suuuuuucks. Its as though they imprinted the social behaviors, then found themselves fortunate enough to snap out, when maturity progressed. Not everyone is so fortunate. Yikes.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:04 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't think oversharing is narcissistic. What I described as borderline narcissistic is elevating it to a moral imperative as the author grew up doing. Maybe it is his own form of self-defense.
posted by muddgirl at 5:38 PM on January 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 5:38 PM on January 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
..ah. Okay, that makes sense. The self-righteousness could occur that way, thank you for clarifying.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:48 PM on January 29, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:48 PM on January 29, 2021
Hot take: Anything you say should be at least two of true, kind and necessary.
Would that include kind & necessary, but not true?
posted by mattiv at 5:58 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Would that include kind & necessary, but not true?
posted by mattiv at 5:58 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Thank you for the lovely gift
posted by some loser at 6:11 PM on January 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by some loser at 6:11 PM on January 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
What I found interesting in my reaction to this essay is how I didn't mind his examples of his mother's honesty in saying 'This will hurt for a short while and then it'll stop,' or her response to his questioning of his grandmother's hypocrisy; but his father's determination to show him how lesser beings live by a script because of insecurity rubbed me the wrong way as it seemed to me his father was trying to cover his own insecurity by pointing out other's faults. All the same, I'm happy the author came to realize that being too open with strangers and acquaintances isn't helpful in establishing relationships as it's shows a lack of consideration for the receiver of these "truths" and is inappropriately burdensome. I think most people desire a fairly finite number of people they want to know intimately and the rest to be on cordial "how ya' doing..great" level of acquaintanceship, and like he said, allowing for a consensual progress from cordiality to intimacy is when the magic happens.
posted by SA456 at 6:14 PM on January 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by SA456 at 6:14 PM on January 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
Hot take: Anything you say should be at least two of true, kind and necessary.
Would that include kind & necessary, but not true?
I would think so, yes. An example of kind, necessary, and untrue comes to mind: it is now advised that if someone with dementia believes a dead loved one is alive, caregivers and family members should also pretend the person is alive, rather than telling the truth. Because the person with dementia can’t retain the info longer than a few hours at best, if you keep correcting them and reminding them that their loved one is dead, you are retraumatizing them repeatedly. It’s like they are experiencing the loss anew, every time.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:15 PM on January 29, 2021 [41 favorites]
Would that include kind & necessary, but not true?
I would think so, yes. An example of kind, necessary, and untrue comes to mind: it is now advised that if someone with dementia believes a dead loved one is alive, caregivers and family members should also pretend the person is alive, rather than telling the truth. Because the person with dementia can’t retain the info longer than a few hours at best, if you keep correcting them and reminding them that their loved one is dead, you are retraumatizing them repeatedly. It’s like they are experiencing the loss anew, every time.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:15 PM on January 29, 2021 [41 favorites]
I had a great-uncle that was a little bit like this. He wasn't constantly announcing his internal states to the world (or telling people true-but-rude things about themselves), but he was every day of sixty-five before he realized that "Hey, how are you?" was usually social wheel-greasing and did not require a comprehensive response, and he did not DO small talk. I mean, he was deeply interested in other people and wanted to hear about their families and pets and things, but he'd never be like, "How're your kids?" He'd be like, "How is your son Bob, whom I believe just turned eight, and last time we spoke he was struggling with some bullies at school? How did that work out?"
He had no kids of his own, but he was an absolute Pied Piper to the children of the family. Have you ever been four, or eight, or ten, and had someone take everything you said absolutely seriously and ask you questions to understand your thoughts and answer all your questions as honestly and completely as possible? It. Is. Awesome. Children are such little learning machines and it's almost impossible to be a parent or caregiver and never brush anything off. I mean, I feel like I take children more seriously than a lot of people do, because I LOVE watching how they think and I always have, but I must brush my own children off a dozen times a day (especially in quarantine), because it would not be possible to function as an adult caregiver if I didn't. You have to kind-of pick and choose your moments for deep engagement, and your moments for "Please stop asking questions for ten minutes so I can ensure you have food and clean clothes."
My great-uncle never did that, with anyone. This was fantastically amazing for children, who all worshipped him. In our teenaged years, it alternated between being wildly awkward and embarrassing, and this enormous refuge where even your self-obsession with your own minor and fleeting problems was interesting to him -- although he was highly likely to point out more than a few awkward truths you were trying very hard to avoid. By the time I was in college, I learned what all the other adults in our family knew, which was that you could not toss of throwaway lines around him or bring up a topic you didn't want to spend an hour discussing. (And I think this is one of the lovely functions of having a large extended family, where everyone loves you and is used to accommodating your foibles, and might roll their eyes but don't really mind.) I learned later that he was seen as kind-of a local gadfly, because he'd go to every town council meeting and school board meeting and ask a ton of questions, just because he wanted to know. And he'd been an engineer in the war (one of the last engineers who came up without even a high school diploma, just with learning on the job; he got his GED after he retired), and he used to stop at construction sites on his walks after he retired and strike up conversations with the foremen and grill them about everything going on. Every time he went by. He deeply did not understand why city council members or construction site foremen might not want to have in-depth conversations about everything, all the time.
He was married -- his wife was by nature just pretty chill about everything, and also deeply interested in other people and in deep discussions. (Although she knew how to small talk and grease social wheels.) He built their house himself (and it was some Frank Lloyd Wright-ass shit, which I did not appreciate until much later on, it was fucking gorgeous), and it was like this magical wonderland, they had AN ENTIRE TWENTY-FOOT WALL of bookcases twelve feet high, stuffed full, and every book on them was fascinating and every book on them was well-thumbed and annotated and most of them were stuffed full of news clippings and magazine articles that related to the topic of the book. And we were allowed to read any of them, whenever we wanted (anything inappropriate for kids was probably up high), and if we asked questions, he'd answer. They had an extensive theological library -- they were very serious Presbyterians who were constantly writing letters to their Session and the Presbytery and the Synod and sometimes even the General Assembly, and various scholars, with quotes to applicable theologians, and receiving them back with the same -- and that is 100% one of the reasons I ended up studying theology. I mean, when you let a 10-year-old loose in a library full of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, with news clippings and annotations and letters from eminent theologians, and answer all their questions, and explain that Bonhoeffer got killed for trying to kill Hitler, SHIT HAPPENS AND PEOPLE GO TO SEMINARY.
Anyway, I got a little distracted. Having someone who takes everything seriously and honestly, and is always honest in return, is both an amazing gift AND more than a little exhausting and infuriating. Small talk is important, and being able to dodge questions in social situations is REALLY important! It is legitimately difficult to spend time with someone who just DOESN'T ever lie or elide or smooth over or dodge, because there's a lot of stuff in human interactions that's just better of ignored. Most people don't want to be laid bare ALL THE TIME about ALL THE THINGS.
But it was also legitimately amazing, especially when I was a child, and it changed the course of my life -- and honestly not just mine. Almost everyone on that side of the family had their lives changed by him, because if you said you were interested in photography, he'd talk to you about photography unless and until you said it didn't interest you anymore, and read books about it so he could discuss it with you, and (because he didn't have his own children and so had more disposable income than his siblings and in-laws) buy you your first camera, so you could grow up to be an award-winning photographer for a major American newspaper. Or a lawyer. Or a musician. Or the first Ph.D. in your family, and he'd read your dissertation, and go to the library and interlibrary loan all the books in your bibliography, and read them until he understood what you were talking about. And then ask you about it. At length.
(He was 90-something when he died, and his wife had died 20 years earlier, and I have literally never been at a funeral so large for someone in their 90s, it was not just generations of family but like the whole town council and school board and a bunch of local union guys and every Presbyterian for 50 miles around and he took up dulcimer in his 80s and cut a record and dulcimer nerds came from all over the US and it was CRAZY.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on January 29, 2021 [142 favorites]
He had no kids of his own, but he was an absolute Pied Piper to the children of the family. Have you ever been four, or eight, or ten, and had someone take everything you said absolutely seriously and ask you questions to understand your thoughts and answer all your questions as honestly and completely as possible? It. Is. Awesome. Children are such little learning machines and it's almost impossible to be a parent or caregiver and never brush anything off. I mean, I feel like I take children more seriously than a lot of people do, because I LOVE watching how they think and I always have, but I must brush my own children off a dozen times a day (especially in quarantine), because it would not be possible to function as an adult caregiver if I didn't. You have to kind-of pick and choose your moments for deep engagement, and your moments for "Please stop asking questions for ten minutes so I can ensure you have food and clean clothes."
My great-uncle never did that, with anyone. This was fantastically amazing for children, who all worshipped him. In our teenaged years, it alternated between being wildly awkward and embarrassing, and this enormous refuge where even your self-obsession with your own minor and fleeting problems was interesting to him -- although he was highly likely to point out more than a few awkward truths you were trying very hard to avoid. By the time I was in college, I learned what all the other adults in our family knew, which was that you could not toss of throwaway lines around him or bring up a topic you didn't want to spend an hour discussing. (And I think this is one of the lovely functions of having a large extended family, where everyone loves you and is used to accommodating your foibles, and might roll their eyes but don't really mind.) I learned later that he was seen as kind-of a local gadfly, because he'd go to every town council meeting and school board meeting and ask a ton of questions, just because he wanted to know. And he'd been an engineer in the war (one of the last engineers who came up without even a high school diploma, just with learning on the job; he got his GED after he retired), and he used to stop at construction sites on his walks after he retired and strike up conversations with the foremen and grill them about everything going on. Every time he went by. He deeply did not understand why city council members or construction site foremen might not want to have in-depth conversations about everything, all the time.
He was married -- his wife was by nature just pretty chill about everything, and also deeply interested in other people and in deep discussions. (Although she knew how to small talk and grease social wheels.) He built their house himself (and it was some Frank Lloyd Wright-ass shit, which I did not appreciate until much later on, it was fucking gorgeous), and it was like this magical wonderland, they had AN ENTIRE TWENTY-FOOT WALL of bookcases twelve feet high, stuffed full, and every book on them was fascinating and every book on them was well-thumbed and annotated and most of them were stuffed full of news clippings and magazine articles that related to the topic of the book. And we were allowed to read any of them, whenever we wanted (anything inappropriate for kids was probably up high), and if we asked questions, he'd answer. They had an extensive theological library -- they were very serious Presbyterians who were constantly writing letters to their Session and the Presbytery and the Synod and sometimes even the General Assembly, and various scholars, with quotes to applicable theologians, and receiving them back with the same -- and that is 100% one of the reasons I ended up studying theology. I mean, when you let a 10-year-old loose in a library full of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, with news clippings and annotations and letters from eminent theologians, and answer all their questions, and explain that Bonhoeffer got killed for trying to kill Hitler, SHIT HAPPENS AND PEOPLE GO TO SEMINARY.
Anyway, I got a little distracted. Having someone who takes everything seriously and honestly, and is always honest in return, is both an amazing gift AND more than a little exhausting and infuriating. Small talk is important, and being able to dodge questions in social situations is REALLY important! It is legitimately difficult to spend time with someone who just DOESN'T ever lie or elide or smooth over or dodge, because there's a lot of stuff in human interactions that's just better of ignored. Most people don't want to be laid bare ALL THE TIME about ALL THE THINGS.
But it was also legitimately amazing, especially when I was a child, and it changed the course of my life -- and honestly not just mine. Almost everyone on that side of the family had their lives changed by him, because if you said you were interested in photography, he'd talk to you about photography unless and until you said it didn't interest you anymore, and read books about it so he could discuss it with you, and (because he didn't have his own children and so had more disposable income than his siblings and in-laws) buy you your first camera, so you could grow up to be an award-winning photographer for a major American newspaper. Or a lawyer. Or a musician. Or the first Ph.D. in your family, and he'd read your dissertation, and go to the library and interlibrary loan all the books in your bibliography, and read them until he understood what you were talking about. And then ask you about it. At length.
(He was 90-something when he died, and his wife had died 20 years earlier, and I have literally never been at a funeral so large for someone in their 90s, it was not just generations of family but like the whole town council and school board and a bunch of local union guys and every Presbyterian for 50 miles around and he took up dulcimer in his 80s and cut a record and dulcimer nerds came from all over the US and it was CRAZY.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on January 29, 2021 [142 favorites]
your great-uncle sounds incredible, and this: "every book on them was well-thumbed and annotated and most of them were stuffed full of news clippings and magazine articles that related to the topic of the book" - is My Dream (if i could ever be organised enough)
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
I put in a quick ctrl+F for "religion" and "church" and "pastor" and deduced that none of these topics played into the author's situation.
My hot take, from experience, is the "truth or else!" mandate feels uncomfortably adjacent to power dynamics in evangelical Christian congregations. I'd only attend a service at the local evangelical church in my hometown if there was a funeral, but the ceremony would have some sort of over-the-top devotion routine where you had to submit with head bowed and eyes closed and the pastor exhorted you to raise your hand if you truly, I mean truly, church-can-you-feel-it-in-your-heart believed in Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.
Hey, can I pay respects to my friend's mother and work out the other stuff on my own time?
...a few comments here allude to the feeling that "honesty" means every conversation has to be a deep one full of deep thoughts. Man, I feel that! I feel like I always knew "small talk" was important (I saw my Dad recede into misanthrope territory way too early...) but a key part of what made me a small-talk acolyte was a comment from here on the Blue: [paraphrased] "95% of all human conversation: You are in this place. I, too, am in this place!"
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 8:24 PM on January 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
My hot take, from experience, is the "truth or else!" mandate feels uncomfortably adjacent to power dynamics in evangelical Christian congregations. I'd only attend a service at the local evangelical church in my hometown if there was a funeral, but the ceremony would have some sort of over-the-top devotion routine where you had to submit with head bowed and eyes closed and the pastor exhorted you to raise your hand if you truly, I mean truly, church-can-you-feel-it-in-your-heart believed in Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.
Hey, can I pay respects to my friend's mother and work out the other stuff on my own time?
...a few comments here allude to the feeling that "honesty" means every conversation has to be a deep one full of deep thoughts. Man, I feel that! I feel like I always knew "small talk" was important (I saw my Dad recede into misanthrope territory way too early...) but a key part of what made me a small-talk acolyte was a comment from here on the Blue: [paraphrased] "95% of all human conversation: You are in this place. I, too, am in this place!"
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 8:24 PM on January 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm sure smalltalk is useful and desirable to most people, maybe even an overwhelming majority. But there are also some of us for whom smalltalk is deeply stressful in a way that Real Talk* is not. I hate smalltalk, and it's not always because I'd rather be doing Real Talk, it's that I don't want to have a conversation that isn't necessary. And yes, the kind of social greasing that smalltalk apparently provides might be "necessary" on some level for some people, but there's very little recognition that such needs are fulfilled at the expense of those of us who find smalltalk intensely stressful, uncomfortable, and unwelcome.
Anyway, TL;DR, wanted to provide some gentle pushback to the sweeping statements about smalltalk that aren't actually universal, even if overwhelmingly common.
*(please don't read anything into this choice of term, I literally just need something to contrast with smalltalk and "bigtalk" reminds me of kindergarten in uncomfortable ways)
posted by Dysk at 8:44 PM on January 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Anyway, TL;DR, wanted to provide some gentle pushback to the sweeping statements about smalltalk that aren't actually universal, even if overwhelmingly common.
*(please don't read anything into this choice of term, I literally just need something to contrast with smalltalk and "bigtalk" reminds me of kindergarten in uncomfortable ways)
posted by Dysk at 8:44 PM on January 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
My first thought as I read the article is that social lying is a form of agency. If you're unfailingly honest and full of candor all the time, you're a prisoner to your circumstances, internal and external. The question "how are you?" has no escape if you're feeling awful but don't want to delve into it. Being less than fully truthful is a form of protection and control that's necessary for emotional health, and for exploring and experiencing your being at your own pace and on your own terms.
If I was unable to be anything less than 100% honest and open, I would stop going out entirely and avoid people as much as possible. I don't have any dark secrets or difficult predilections. I just don't want to be involuntarily detained or determined by a principle with no apparent value except for a self-indulgent superiority.
posted by fatbird at 8:59 PM on January 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
If I was unable to be anything less than 100% honest and open, I would stop going out entirely and avoid people as much as possible. I don't have any dark secrets or difficult predilections. I just don't want to be involuntarily detained or determined by a principle with no apparent value except for a self-indulgent superiority.
posted by fatbird at 8:59 PM on January 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
That is a large part of why I dislike smalltalk so much, fatbird. Being forced to lie can make me deeply, viscerally uncomfortable. I still remember, nearly two decades on, being pressed for an opinion on someone's vocal performance at a gig, and them just not buying my deflections. Eventually I relented and mumbled something about it being good. (Reader, it was Not Good. Like, biblically Not Good.) I am still angry about this fact now, despite the intervening years.
No, I don't go out much or have many friends.
posted by Dysk at 9:09 PM on January 29, 2021
No, I don't go out much or have many friends.
posted by Dysk at 9:09 PM on January 29, 2021
(And to clarify how that relates, it's the lack of agency you're afforded when you're faced with a choice between a deeply uncomfortable lie - which would be a meaningless thing to most people, I realise - and an also uncomfortable social faux pas with the added tension of everyone will think you are the asshole of you go for that one. In the above case, our mutual friends meant that option 2 was effectively closed to me.)
posted by Dysk at 9:12 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:12 PM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
This line got my attention: “At age 4, I attempted to prove that a mall Santa was a fraud.”
Did his parents tell 4 year old Michael that Santa wasn’t real? Or did he believe in the real Santa but was smart enough to know that mall Santa was fake? I assume it’s former given him parents’ extremism.
Either way, I feel like his parents’ idiosyncratic take on radical honesty probably did him a disservice.
Take it from young Lumpy, a smug child who felt superior because he never believed in Santa. My parents were Jesus Freaks who would never lie to their children about the true meaning of Christmas. (In their favor, they told us not to spoil our cousins’ fun by spilling the beans.)
I have now raised three children who breathlessly watched the Santa Tracker until bedtime on Christmas Eve. I regret nothing.
Michael concludes that although he’s loosened up, he’s sure “some people think I’m still too honest.” If I’m being honest, I doubt anyone thinks that. They may think that Michael is rude. They may think he overshares. They may want him to stop telling their kids that Santa isn’t real. But they are probably not thinking that Michael needs to ease up on the truth bombs.
posted by lumpy at 9:16 PM on January 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
Did his parents tell 4 year old Michael that Santa wasn’t real? Or did he believe in the real Santa but was smart enough to know that mall Santa was fake? I assume it’s former given him parents’ extremism.
Either way, I feel like his parents’ idiosyncratic take on radical honesty probably did him a disservice.
Take it from young Lumpy, a smug child who felt superior because he never believed in Santa. My parents were Jesus Freaks who would never lie to their children about the true meaning of Christmas. (In their favor, they told us not to spoil our cousins’ fun by spilling the beans.)
I have now raised three children who breathlessly watched the Santa Tracker until bedtime on Christmas Eve. I regret nothing.
Michael concludes that although he’s loosened up, he’s sure “some people think I’m still too honest.” If I’m being honest, I doubt anyone thinks that. They may think that Michael is rude. They may think he overshares. They may want him to stop telling their kids that Santa isn’t real. But they are probably not thinking that Michael needs to ease up on the truth bombs.
posted by lumpy at 9:16 PM on January 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
I still remember, nearly two decades on, being pressed for an opinion on someone's vocal performance at a gig, and them just not buying my deflections
You weren’t the one committing the social faux pas here. It was the person pressing you for your opinion after you deflected.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:17 PM on January 29, 2021 [11 favorites]
You weren’t the one committing the social faux pas here. It was the person pressing you for your opinion after you deflected.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:17 PM on January 29, 2021 [11 favorites]
Yes and no - the deflection was already a small lie, and that sucked in itself.
This is my problem with smalltalk, people ask you stuff they don't actually want the answers to, oftentimes where there is only one answer that is acceptable, which might not be compatible with your actual thoughts or opinions, so you have to constantly be prepared to make up stuff that just isn't true. It's constantly being prepared to lie, or actually lying, with varying degrees of severity.
posted by Dysk at 9:21 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is my problem with smalltalk, people ask you stuff they don't actually want the answers to, oftentimes where there is only one answer that is acceptable, which might not be compatible with your actual thoughts or opinions, so you have to constantly be prepared to make up stuff that just isn't true. It's constantly being prepared to lie, or actually lying, with varying degrees of severity.
posted by Dysk at 9:21 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
You don't have to answer a question at all, even if you love the person who is asking, even if they ask nicely with the best of intentions.
You also don't have to volunteer your opinions.
Some things can be no one else's business but your own, and that's more than fine: it's wonderful.
Setting boundaries can be incredibly healthy for relationships.
posted by springo at 9:26 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
You also don't have to volunteer your opinions.
Some things can be no one else's business but your own, and that's more than fine: it's wonderful.
Setting boundaries can be incredibly healthy for relationships.
posted by springo at 9:26 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but if someone at work says "how are you" or "what is your opinion on this piece of work" and I either don't respond or say "not telling you" then I am in fact rude, and end up with my work environment being even less comfortable. Obviously an extremely trivial example, but it is not always possible to simply ignore or give non-answers to questions.
I'm bowing out of this thread now, because I don't want it to become all about me, or about a bunch of well-intentioned people trying to solve problems for me that they don't and possibly can't understand.
posted by Dysk at 9:29 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm bowing out of this thread now, because I don't want it to become all about me, or about a bunch of well-intentioned people trying to solve problems for me that they don't and possibly can't understand.
posted by Dysk at 9:29 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Yeah, but if someone at work says "how are you" or "what is your opinion on this piece of work" and I either don't respond or say "not telling you" then I am in fact rude, and end up with my work environment being even less comfortable." This is legitimate. Sometimes it's more simple to have innocuous conversations, then phase them out. Or if ended contact is needed, to do so in a very flattering way, even if it isn't more internally ideal.
It's easy to recommend happy boundaries, but a little more complex to articulate the actual idea between parties. Sometimes people articulate 'boundary line' or balance in contrasting ways, it's difficult to find the delicate middle line- and this is for anyone.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:35 PM on January 29, 2021
It's easy to recommend happy boundaries, but a little more complex to articulate the actual idea between parties. Sometimes people articulate 'boundary line' or balance in contrasting ways, it's difficult to find the delicate middle line- and this is for anyone.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:35 PM on January 29, 2021
Without having clicked on the link, I was winding up to write a comment; then I did read the link, and it said just about what I was going to write! But more fulsomely and eloquently than I would have.
Also the FPP title made me think of this television commercial.
posted by XMLicious at 10:19 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also the FPP title made me think of this television commercial.
posted by XMLicious at 10:19 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
"My problem is that I'm too honest." The humblebrag is strong with this one.
posted by zardoz at 11:12 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 11:12 PM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
16 and I had to go to DMV yesterday and it took two hours. At first nobody was talking and then an employee came outside and went down the line to make sure they'd be able to help us, that we had the correct documents, enough money, etcetera so then everyone knew a little bit about the people near them and then everyone started talking.
There wasn't any small talk. People were talking about getting evicted in spite of the moratorium, how much they missed live music, missing stimulus checks and everyone was empathizing and warm. People were saying goodbye to each other as they left. That would not have happened pre covid. We actually had a good time at DMV.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 12:06 AM on January 30, 2021 [20 favorites]
There wasn't any small talk. People were talking about getting evicted in spite of the moratorium, how much they missed live music, missing stimulus checks and everyone was empathizing and warm. People were saying goodbye to each other as they left. That would not have happened pre covid. We actually had a good time at DMV.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 12:06 AM on January 30, 2021 [20 favorites]
“16 and I had to go to DMV yesterday” was a line I had to read twice, thinking, “Mr. Yuck is a dad, not a high school student, WTF?” Which was fine, actually. It kind of woke me up so I could pay more attention to the actual comment. I cannot imagine a good time at the DMV pre-pandemic. Thank you for sharing, and I mean that sincerely. You, too, Dysk.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:17 AM on January 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:17 AM on January 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not a parent, myself, but do parents really tell kids that injections won't hurt? I'm pretty sure my Mum said basically what the author's mother said.
posted by pompomtom at 1:29 AM on January 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by pompomtom at 1:29 AM on January 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Dysk, I smiled ruefully in recognition. I have also had that habit of twisting myself into uncomfortable knots to avoid lying while also avoiding saying something hurtful. One side effect that helps exactly no one is that sometimes my irritation at being put in this position comes through, and that, it turns out, is ALSO not polite!
I actually grew up thinking the way to avoid lying was to change my mind and have a positive opinion about everything. I thought I’d, like, found a shortcut, or something. I’m very lucky this flaw didn’t wind up manifesting in a string of extremely bad idea boyfriends — I’m supposed to love everybody, right?
I think learning to love the small lie is the only way out. As an adult I have had a handful of high-stakes interactions that would have been smoother and more productive if the other person had been able to conceal their true feelings from me, instead of saddling me with them. This tells me I need to be willing (and skilled enough) to do the same.
Little e knows to do the social lie about food (she always has; “this is a great dinner, Mama!” she proclaims, while not touching it; I’m not much of a chef). I hope she never feels she has to lie to us about big stuff, but when it comes to the small things I think: good; you were at some risk of not being able to lie; I’m glad you’ve dodged this one.
posted by eirias at 4:36 AM on January 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
I actually grew up thinking the way to avoid lying was to change my mind and have a positive opinion about everything. I thought I’d, like, found a shortcut, or something. I’m very lucky this flaw didn’t wind up manifesting in a string of extremely bad idea boyfriends — I’m supposed to love everybody, right?
I think learning to love the small lie is the only way out. As an adult I have had a handful of high-stakes interactions that would have been smoother and more productive if the other person had been able to conceal their true feelings from me, instead of saddling me with them. This tells me I need to be willing (and skilled enough) to do the same.
Little e knows to do the social lie about food (she always has; “this is a great dinner, Mama!” she proclaims, while not touching it; I’m not much of a chef). I hope she never feels she has to lie to us about big stuff, but when it comes to the small things I think: good; you were at some risk of not being able to lie; I’m glad you’ve dodged this one.
posted by eirias at 4:36 AM on January 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Usually when someone is so "self-focused," the primitive inversion of this is their reptillian brain (basil ganglia?) signaling a distress signal. It's sad because it's nearly self defeating: they're so stressed they actually aren't really thinking of anyone or "themselves" at all, because a signal is tripping and the fear response has the body believing it's in danger. The person starts oversharing for a botched attempt at help.(The Gift of Fear references this)
Thanks for posting this, firstdaffodil. It articulates something I've been struggling to bring into focus.
posted by Zumbador at 5:49 AM on January 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Thanks for posting this, firstdaffodil. It articulates something I've been struggling to bring into focus.
posted by Zumbador at 5:49 AM on January 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
It occurs to me that *unreciprocated* honesty is one aspect of the problem-- if one person is honest about their feelings and the other person feels they can't tell the truth about not liking the conversation, it's a miserable situation for the second person.
There's cultural variation in what truths may and may not be told. How much enthusiasm can you show about your friends and relatives? How much must you show?
I might as well mention the SNAFU principle-- that information doesn't flow much in hierarchies. The people who know the most are the ones who don't have the power to change things. The people in charge don't know what's going on.
I've come to believe you can find out what's going on or you can punish people. You can't have both.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:38 AM on January 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
There's cultural variation in what truths may and may not be told. How much enthusiasm can you show about your friends and relatives? How much must you show?
I might as well mention the SNAFU principle-- that information doesn't flow much in hierarchies. The people who know the most are the ones who don't have the power to change things. The people in charge don't know what's going on.
I've come to believe you can find out what's going on or you can punish people. You can't have both.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:38 AM on January 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
if one person is honest about their feelings and the other person feels they can't tell the truth about not liking the conversation, it's a miserable situation for the second person.
Yeah, I was talking about this article with another friend yesterday and she pointed out that this kind of honesty is not available to people on the short end of a lot of power relationships - the grocery store clerk is not in a position to reciprocate your remarks about how your ass itches and your girlfriend yelled at you for eating all the ice cream. I'm guessing this guy would have had to learn some alternatives a lot (a LOT) sooner if he were in a position of less privilege. (I am also guessing that therapy camp was... not cheap.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:44 AM on January 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
Yeah, I was talking about this article with another friend yesterday and she pointed out that this kind of honesty is not available to people on the short end of a lot of power relationships - the grocery store clerk is not in a position to reciprocate your remarks about how your ass itches and your girlfriend yelled at you for eating all the ice cream. I'm guessing this guy would have had to learn some alternatives a lot (a LOT) sooner if he were in a position of less privilege. (I am also guessing that therapy camp was... not cheap.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:44 AM on January 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
I enjoyed this. I’m glad he found a brand of honesty that felt real to him but didn’t alienate other people. It must have been incredibly difficult.
posted by obfuscation at 8:21 AM on January 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by obfuscation at 8:21 AM on January 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
I grew up in a family like this, and it was part of a pattern of abuse: the adult emotionally burdening and parentifying the children, the adult disdaining outsiders and not teaching the kids socially appropriate behavior as a means of keeping us loyal, and the adult teaching children to implicate themselves with any incident of "wrongdoing." I still struggle with this with my kid. Yes, I'm very good at reading people too--I had to be, because of abuse--but sometimes your kid doesn't need to know that grandma is a hypocrite.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:42 AM on January 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:42 AM on January 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
I asked difficult questions as a kid and whatever was wrong with either parent they did answer me honestly. They understood why I was asking and addressed that without some details that I would come to understand on my own as I grew. I can't think of a single lie they told me. They did leave ellipses and blank spots.
When there was an arson here I was having a time trying to get 3 kids and 3 dogs to stop going back in after each other. The dogs kept piling my diaries from when I was 7 thru 10 years old at my feet and I couldn't find the youngest kid because she was in my burning study sending dogs out with what she hadn't read yet. When I figured out WTF was going on I had the dogs haul her ass out. I had no idea she had been reading all that.
We didn't talk about that until I had a chance to reread it myself. I could stand by anything I wrote then and I had noticed her trusting me more those weeks prior to the fire.
So I can't ever even think about misleading her. We are not bio-related but she's more me than I am sometimes.
She asked me what my first girfriend was like this morning and I said she was really smart but had a lot of problems and found some stuff girlfriend published when she was 17. That was enough. It was an honest answer.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 9:35 AM on January 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
When there was an arson here I was having a time trying to get 3 kids and 3 dogs to stop going back in after each other. The dogs kept piling my diaries from when I was 7 thru 10 years old at my feet and I couldn't find the youngest kid because she was in my burning study sending dogs out with what she hadn't read yet. When I figured out WTF was going on I had the dogs haul her ass out. I had no idea she had been reading all that.
We didn't talk about that until I had a chance to reread it myself. I could stand by anything I wrote then and I had noticed her trusting me more those weeks prior to the fire.
So I can't ever even think about misleading her. We are not bio-related but she's more me than I am sometimes.
She asked me what my first girfriend was like this morning and I said she was really smart but had a lot of problems and found some stuff girlfriend published when she was 17. That was enough. It was an honest answer.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 9:35 AM on January 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
This post is basically the plot of Molière's Le Misanthrope, right?
A couple of my friends are honest in a blunt and forthright fashion. Back when socialising was possible, I used to avoid them when I was feeling vulnerable.
restless_nomad is absolutely right, also, to point out the frequent power differential.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:11 AM on January 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Je veux qu'on soit sincère, et qu'en homme d'honneur,The author is right that many people use "just being honest" as a mask for cruelty. Still others-- possibly like the author-- don't necessarily see a distinction between being honest and being right.
On ne lâche aucun mot qui ne parte du coeur."
A couple of my friends are honest in a blunt and forthright fashion. Back when socialising was possible, I used to avoid them when I was feeling vulnerable.
restless_nomad is absolutely right, also, to point out the frequent power differential.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:11 AM on January 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I read this as a wonderful story of an autistic kid growing up with two autistic parents who love him, and more importantly don't hate themselves for who they are. bleep hit the nail on the head with their comment about neurodivergence, and I deeply understand what Dysk was describing about their own experience of the dreadful twisting unpleasantness of lying and the bewildering horror-show that is having to engage in smalltalk.
The passage of the article that broke my heart was the author's description of training himself to mask:
general population. I've seen a lot of misunderstanding of autistic experience on Metafilter lately and am thinking the time is ripe for some MeTa discussion.
posted by heatherlogan at 11:14 AM on January 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
The passage of the article that broke my heart was the author's description of training himself to mask:
* Hide your feelings and observations.I'm sad to see so many neurotypical Mefites dismissing the author's self-reported natural and comfortable way of being in the world as pathological / domestic abuse / the result of bad parenting. Please recognize that the neurotypical experience of social interactions is fundamentally different from that of autistic people, and that some things that neurotypicals find effortless -- like making smalltalk -- can be genuinely impossible for autistic people due to biological differences in information processing. Masking requires a tremendous amount of ongoing effort, is rarely genuinely successful, and leads to a lifetime of self-erasure. There's a reason why suicide rates among autistic people are more than three times higher than the
* Instead of searching for people who will appreciate who you really are, try to be what the person in front of you wants.
* Learn to make small talk.
* Do NOT be yourself.
general population. I've seen a lot of misunderstanding of autistic experience on Metafilter lately and am thinking the time is ripe for some MeTa discussion.
posted by heatherlogan at 11:14 AM on January 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
A bunch of really bad things happened last year above and beyond the pandemic: my dad succumbed to dementia and died, I broke my leg and needed surgery etc, my job became difficult and awful. And I would bump into people and they would say "how are you?" And my brain would freeze. I was raised to give a straight answer to a direct question, but the straight answer was frankly awful, not just because people don't want to hear that shit necessarily, but also because I was tired of talking about it and wanted to ignore my problems. So I would open my mouth and nothing would come out until I could force it into the shapes necessary to say "I'm ok thanks, how are you?"
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:19 AM on January 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:19 AM on January 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
I gave a straight honest answer to "How are you doing" last night and hoooooooo boy, am I dealing with the consequences. I wish I hadn't been honest (answer: very badly, I was crying and drinking and not up to faking okay at all), but that's not how our social world works.
"A couple of my friends are honest in a blunt and forthright fashion. Back when socialising was possible, I used to avoid them when I was feeling vulnerable."
There's that too. I sent something to a friend that I thought was cute and they said multiple times how UGLY UGLY UGLY UGLY!!!! it was. Their being very blunt and honest about every damn thing they think and feel is exhausting and can come off as mean and I just want to beg them to stop it, but of course they won't. I will note that this person has lots and lots of problems holding down jobs and keeping friendships and is utterly baffled as to why. But good lord, saying "Do you have to get into a fight with everyone and express every bit of dissatisfaction about everything?" is not going to go over well either.
* Hide your feelings and observations.
* Instead of searching for people who will appreciate who you really are, try to be what the person in front of you wants.
* Learn to make small talk.
* Do NOT be yourself.
This sounds horrible, but at the same time I can't deny that it's socially necessary so that people don't get into fights and drama. I got in trouble for "I have spent a fair chunk of my adult life fighting my ADHD-powered tendency to blurt out whatever I am thinking to whomever happens to be located in my vicinity. First I needed to understand that over-disclosure was not my friend " this just yesterday, so....
it is now advised that if someone with dementia believes a dead loved one is alive, caregivers and family members should also pretend the person is alive, rather than telling the truth. Because the person with dementia can’t retain the info longer than a few hours at best, if you keep correcting them and reminding them that their loved one is dead, you are retraumatizing them repeatedly. It’s like they are experiencing the loss anew, every time.
Yeah, this too. I'm told my grandma kept asking "Where's Norman?" just over and over and over and over when the dementia was raging. Trying to get someone into your reality just doesn't work anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:48 AM on January 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
"A couple of my friends are honest in a blunt and forthright fashion. Back when socialising was possible, I used to avoid them when I was feeling vulnerable."
There's that too. I sent something to a friend that I thought was cute and they said multiple times how UGLY UGLY UGLY UGLY!!!! it was. Their being very blunt and honest about every damn thing they think and feel is exhausting and can come off as mean and I just want to beg them to stop it, but of course they won't. I will note that this person has lots and lots of problems holding down jobs and keeping friendships and is utterly baffled as to why. But good lord, saying "Do you have to get into a fight with everyone and express every bit of dissatisfaction about everything?" is not going to go over well either.
* Hide your feelings and observations.
* Instead of searching for people who will appreciate who you really are, try to be what the person in front of you wants.
* Learn to make small talk.
* Do NOT be yourself.
This sounds horrible, but at the same time I can't deny that it's socially necessary so that people don't get into fights and drama. I got in trouble for "I have spent a fair chunk of my adult life fighting my ADHD-powered tendency to blurt out whatever I am thinking to whomever happens to be located in my vicinity. First I needed to understand that over-disclosure was not my friend " this just yesterday, so....
it is now advised that if someone with dementia believes a dead loved one is alive, caregivers and family members should also pretend the person is alive, rather than telling the truth. Because the person with dementia can’t retain the info longer than a few hours at best, if you keep correcting them and reminding them that their loved one is dead, you are retraumatizing them repeatedly. It’s like they are experiencing the loss anew, every time.
Yeah, this too. I'm told my grandma kept asking "Where's Norman?" just over and over and over and over when the dementia was raging. Trying to get someone into your reality just doesn't work anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:48 AM on January 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Recognizing the emotional and social needs of others around you and adapting your behavior (within certain boundaries) is a key life skill. Being "true to yourself " can be a good thing, but is not necessarily a good thing. When you're around the few people who appreciate blunt honesty, be blunt. When you're around people who are more sensitive, meet them on their turf and consider their needs and why your "need to be honest" trumps their need to preserve their ego, not have their feelings hurt, etc. Pretend you are a traveler in a foreign land. You can be the "Ugly American" and expect everyone to just deal with you as you are, or you can learn the local customs as best you can and try to go through life with a little grace and recognize that other people's needs and social customs matter too. This was an epiphany I had many years ago.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 11:55 AM on January 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 11:55 AM on January 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm sad to see so many neurotypical Mefites dismissing the author's self-reported natural and comfortable way of being in the world as pathological / domestic abuse / the result of bad parenting. Fuck you all for treating us this way.
I'm also neurodivergent. I was speaking for my own experience of growing up with abuse.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:31 PM on January 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm also neurodivergent. I was speaking for my own experience of growing up with abuse.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:31 PM on January 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
heatherlogan, I don't want to speak for others, but I'm not sure I'm neurotypical myself, by today's definitions. And I do see the link you're drawing here.
Personally, I think it's reasonable for a person to take a look at their own natural patterns of interacting -- regardless of the origin of those patterns -- and say: you know, this is where I come from, but it's not working for me in X circumstance for Y reason, and maybe I should try to change it, to learn a new way of being. That's what I see in the linked article (and yes, I see some grief there too). I see what you mean that there are kind and less-kind ways to react to that, as a reader.
I remember seeing a Looney Tunes cartoon as a kid that ended with the moral, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." (Maybe more than one.) At the time I found this, like, unutterably offensive! If my way is right, why should I give in just because I'm outnumbered? Well, code-switching is useful, is one answer. I can still get to have joy and relaxation around "my people" and at the same time work to develop cultural competency around not-my-people. I can't tell whether the author's found this yet, but I don't begrudge him his journey.
posted by eirias at 12:52 PM on January 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Personally, I think it's reasonable for a person to take a look at their own natural patterns of interacting -- regardless of the origin of those patterns -- and say: you know, this is where I come from, but it's not working for me in X circumstance for Y reason, and maybe I should try to change it, to learn a new way of being. That's what I see in the linked article (and yes, I see some grief there too). I see what you mean that there are kind and less-kind ways to react to that, as a reader.
I remember seeing a Looney Tunes cartoon as a kid that ended with the moral, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." (Maybe more than one.) At the time I found this, like, unutterably offensive! If my way is right, why should I give in just because I'm outnumbered? Well, code-switching is useful, is one answer. I can still get to have joy and relaxation around "my people" and at the same time work to develop cultural competency around not-my-people. I can't tell whether the author's found this yet, but I don't begrudge him his journey.
posted by eirias at 12:52 PM on January 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well, code-switching is useful, is one answer. I can still get to have joy and relaxation around "my people" and at the same time work to develop cultural competency around not-my-people. I can't tell whether the author's found this yet, but I don't begrudge him his journey.
Co-signing this. Recognizing, even, precisely what's going wrong if a friend asks "Am I a bad person if . . . " and I answer "Well, we have to look at what ethical system you're using but I don't think anyone would argue that you're doing the right thing if you . . ." has been very liberating. Letting a child have a choice in what they disclose (oh, I don't have to tell a stranger about my dead dad? cool!) can let that child protect themselves. There are times when it's great to open a vein and let it all flow. There are times when you can see, visibly, that the other person doesn't have the capacity, and it's smart to help children read non-verbal communication for many reasons. I feel like I have far more tools now to navigate social interactions than I did as a child, including the very concept of boundaries.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:06 PM on January 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
Co-signing this. Recognizing, even, precisely what's going wrong if a friend asks "Am I a bad person if . . . " and I answer "Well, we have to look at what ethical system you're using but I don't think anyone would argue that you're doing the right thing if you . . ." has been very liberating. Letting a child have a choice in what they disclose (oh, I don't have to tell a stranger about my dead dad? cool!) can let that child protect themselves. There are times when it's great to open a vein and let it all flow. There are times when you can see, visibly, that the other person doesn't have the capacity, and it's smart to help children read non-verbal communication for many reasons. I feel like I have far more tools now to navigate social interactions than I did as a child, including the very concept of boundaries.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:06 PM on January 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
I kinda wish we could replace "how are you" with "hope you're well." It's less interactive but closer to the point and would spare people from forcing out the word "fine" on days they're anything but.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:14 PM on January 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:14 PM on January 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
"Well, code-switching is useful, is one answer. I can still get to have joy and relaxation around "my people" and at the same time work to develop cultural competency around not-my-people. I can't tell whether the author's found this yet, but I don't begrudge him his journey."
Code switching is very relevant here.
I've also played the, "oh, we're playing the rude person's game," where if someone deliberately presses buttons, politeness literally remains a courtesy, and I play in return. Little incentive to be polite to someone acting asinine.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:27 PM on January 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Code switching is very relevant here.
I've also played the, "oh, we're playing the rude person's game," where if someone deliberately presses buttons, politeness literally remains a courtesy, and I play in return. Little incentive to be polite to someone acting asinine.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:27 PM on January 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
This does sound absolutely terrible. It's because it's not just "overly" truthful, but actually negative. Cue socially awkward clunkiness (statement bares no personal reflection of the author: just the phrasing):
* Hide your feelings and observations.
* Instead of searching for people who will appreciate who you really are, try to be what the person in front of you wants.
* Learn to make small talk.
* Do NOT be yourself.
It can be recontextualized this way:
*Wait* to share feelings or observation.
*Be selective about sharing reflections of yourself too quickly with others.
*Learn to make small talk.
*Be yourself, but please be flexible.
I enjoy stretching to accommodate others, a person can learn quite a lot this way. Maybe a little ironically, I do expect people to be straightforward, because it's my actual personal preference. They can do whatever else they like, in the company of others.
Expressed, the author may be neurodivergent but reveals multiple areas of knowledge or interest in connection or improvement. Additionally, I thought neuro-divergence rested on a spectrum: therefore, there is no need to divide between "normies" (wow) and atypical dispositions: because all positions lend themselves to at least a margin of divergence. It just depends on the person and context.
Sofar unmentioned, intersectionality of places within the US where one may be expected to be more egotistically or personably flexible than others (Los Angeles versus Boston, or even Mexico in contrast with Denmark). Emotions are a hell of a drug.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:38 PM on January 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
* Hide your feelings and observations.
* Instead of searching for people who will appreciate who you really are, try to be what the person in front of you wants.
* Learn to make small talk.
* Do NOT be yourself.
It can be recontextualized this way:
*Wait* to share feelings or observation.
*Be selective about sharing reflections of yourself too quickly with others.
*Learn to make small talk.
*Be yourself, but please be flexible.
I enjoy stretching to accommodate others, a person can learn quite a lot this way. Maybe a little ironically, I do expect people to be straightforward, because it's my actual personal preference. They can do whatever else they like, in the company of others.
Expressed, the author may be neurodivergent but reveals multiple areas of knowledge or interest in connection or improvement. Additionally, I thought neuro-divergence rested on a spectrum: therefore, there is no need to divide between "normies" (wow) and atypical dispositions: because all positions lend themselves to at least a margin of divergence. It just depends on the person and context.
Sofar unmentioned, intersectionality of places within the US where one may be expected to be more egotistically or personably flexible than others (Los Angeles versus Boston, or even Mexico in contrast with Denmark). Emotions are a hell of a drug.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:38 PM on January 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
"Usually when someone is so "self-focused," the primitive inversion of this is their reptillian brain (basil ganglia?) signaling a distress signal. It's sad because it's nearly self defeating: they're so stressed they actually aren't really thinking of anyone or "themselves" at all, because a signal is tripping and the fear response has the body believing it's in danger. The person starts oversharing for a botched attempt at help.(The Gift of Fear references this)
Thanks for posting this, firstdaffodil. It articulates something I've been struggling to bring into focus."
Yw. Btw, for people in this awful dance with a friend or partner: yes, listen to what they're saying and converse, but if the person is caught in a feedback loop, try to inquire about physical actions that may be absent from their progress. They might feel physically shut down without registering it, because they're neglecting solving the external problem and talking instead. (welcome to where therapy meets a bit wall). If they cannot identify any activities that need to be done, there may exist a large problem they're concealing.* (welcome to their animal brain)
MF post triple threat.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Thanks for posting this, firstdaffodil. It articulates something I've been struggling to bring into focus."
Yw. Btw, for people in this awful dance with a friend or partner: yes, listen to what they're saying and converse, but if the person is caught in a feedback loop, try to inquire about physical actions that may be absent from their progress. They might feel physically shut down without registering it, because they're neglecting solving the external problem and talking instead. (welcome to where therapy meets a bit wall). If they cannot identify any activities that need to be done, there may exist a large problem they're concealing.* (welcome to their animal brain)
MF post triple threat.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Recognizing the emotional and social needs of others around you and adapting your behavior (within certain boundaries) is a key life skill.
Yeah, and the reason this is constantly frustrating and feels unfair is that it's basically a one-way street. There's some myth that neurotypical people are better at empathy than most neurodivergent folks. This has never ring true to me, as most people with autism and/or ADHD I know are the opposite - we have to empathise with people that function fundamentally differently to us all the time. We have to learn a set of social rules that perplex us, make no sense, and are far from intuitive. We have to actually read the people in front of us all the time, because of often not having good "shortcuts" for any given situation.
Neurotypical people on the other hand, tend in my experience to come across like they're exclusively using shortcuts, rules of thumb, accepted practice, and pay no attention to the person in front of them. I have to learn to act in ways that are uncomfortable and unnatural to me in order to make the other person in the conversation comfortable. Meanwhile, they just follow the exact same rules and script that they would with anyone else, either not noticing, caring, or knowing how to address my growing discomfort.
We are constantly asked to take responsibility for the feelings of those around us. Very rarely do those around us do the same in return.
posted by Dysk at 10:35 PM on January 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
Yeah, and the reason this is constantly frustrating and feels unfair is that it's basically a one-way street. There's some myth that neurotypical people are better at empathy than most neurodivergent folks. This has never ring true to me, as most people with autism and/or ADHD I know are the opposite - we have to empathise with people that function fundamentally differently to us all the time. We have to learn a set of social rules that perplex us, make no sense, and are far from intuitive. We have to actually read the people in front of us all the time, because of often not having good "shortcuts" for any given situation.
Neurotypical people on the other hand, tend in my experience to come across like they're exclusively using shortcuts, rules of thumb, accepted practice, and pay no attention to the person in front of them. I have to learn to act in ways that are uncomfortable and unnatural to me in order to make the other person in the conversation comfortable. Meanwhile, they just follow the exact same rules and script that they would with anyone else, either not noticing, caring, or knowing how to address my growing discomfort.
We are constantly asked to take responsibility for the feelings of those around us. Very rarely do those around us do the same in return.
posted by Dysk at 10:35 PM on January 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
@Dysk yes. Neurotypical people have shit theory-of-mind about autistic people, so where do they get off?
Filed under "Double empathy problem" e.g. here and here.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:18 AM on January 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
Filed under "Double empathy problem" e.g. here and here.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:18 AM on January 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
When there was an arson here I was having a time trying to get 3 kids and 3 dogs to stop going back in after each other.
What the hell, Mr. Yuck, that sounds like an unimaginable nightmare. I hope the household has recovered as fully as possible.
I have a friend who taught me to write, “I hope you are as well as you can be,” as she does. The idea being, as she once explained, that it is often really fucking hard to be truly well. For many different intersectional reasons, along with individual circumstances and/or bad luck. This is not a critique of anyone who chooses to do otherwise, I just appreciate hearing that from her and also sharing that hope with her and other friends.
This has become my hope for myself as well. Striving to be as well as I can be, given whatever circumstances I happen to be in, seems like a right-sized goal rather than a taunting impossibility. Note: I do not take it personally if anyone wishes me well, of course not. They are being kind. I just happen to prefer this alternative.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:46 AM on January 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
What the hell, Mr. Yuck, that sounds like an unimaginable nightmare. I hope the household has recovered as fully as possible.
I have a friend who taught me to write, “I hope you are as well as you can be,” as she does. The idea being, as she once explained, that it is often really fucking hard to be truly well. For many different intersectional reasons, along with individual circumstances and/or bad luck. This is not a critique of anyone who chooses to do otherwise, I just appreciate hearing that from her and also sharing that hope with her and other friends.
This has become my hope for myself as well. Striving to be as well as I can be, given whatever circumstances I happen to be in, seems like a right-sized goal rather than a taunting impossibility. Note: I do not take it personally if anyone wishes me well, of course not. They are being kind. I just happen to prefer this alternative.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:46 AM on January 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
As someone who was brought up entirely differently, and is always code switching and reading the room and got burned when being honest, I loved this essay. It's like a window into a different "what if".
What if I stopped filtering? What if I said "this is who I am, deal with it or get out of the way"?
Well, as I'm female and not white - unlike the author, I think - this would be an extremely punishable offense. But it was still great to see how it would work out in practice for someone who walked the walk. I like the lessons he learned. I like how he seems to be working towards the same, more viable way of communicating from the other side than I come from.
And I don't think his upbringing is that weird. On the unusual end of the norm, yes, but not pathological.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:01 AM on January 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
What if I stopped filtering? What if I said "this is who I am, deal with it or get out of the way"?
Well, as I'm female and not white - unlike the author, I think - this would be an extremely punishable offense. But it was still great to see how it would work out in practice for someone who walked the walk. I like the lessons he learned. I like how he seems to be working towards the same, more viable way of communicating from the other side than I come from.
And I don't think his upbringing is that weird. On the unusual end of the norm, yes, but not pathological.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:01 AM on January 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
What the hell, Mr. Yuck, that sounds like an unimaginable nightmare. I hope the household has recovered as fully as possible.
That was our housewarming from the neighbors. We had thought we were in better place with them and then it started up again when Trump was elected. The kids are just plain tough now.
One of the things that floored me at DMV Friday was that about 20 minutes of the group discussion was about autism. One guy said he was and he lived with his grandmother who was too and it was hard for him deal with the eviction without a drug he couldn't afford and people were really kind.
I told him about the state-level moratorium and how to get free legal help and somebody else piped up about a little known back door to get that drug cause their SO was taking it. Then people were talking about being labeled different ways.
I think Metafilter has a far higher percentage of neuroatypical people then I encounter anywhere else and I like that. We gravitate towards each other.
I don't think the author and I would make good friends. I spend plenty of time navel gazing but nobody random can hurt my feelings with a ill considered remark. The world doesn't care how I feel so I concentrate on the people who do.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 11:51 AM on January 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
That was our housewarming from the neighbors. We had thought we were in better place with them and then it started up again when Trump was elected. The kids are just plain tough now.
One of the things that floored me at DMV Friday was that about 20 minutes of the group discussion was about autism. One guy said he was and he lived with his grandmother who was too and it was hard for him deal with the eviction without a drug he couldn't afford and people were really kind.
I told him about the state-level moratorium and how to get free legal help and somebody else piped up about a little known back door to get that drug cause their SO was taking it. Then people were talking about being labeled different ways.
I think Metafilter has a far higher percentage of neuroatypical people then I encounter anywhere else and I like that. We gravitate towards each other.
I don't think the author and I would make good friends. I spend plenty of time navel gazing but nobody random can hurt my feelings with a ill considered remark. The world doesn't care how I feel so I concentrate on the people who do.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 11:51 AM on January 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
Btw, it's one thing to be raised in an awkward environment and make others feel uncomfortable, unconsciously.
Quite another to do it by force of necessity, while constantly feeling uncomfortable yourself.
Cannot at all relate to the parents in this article.
Oh, how web traffic affects the subconscious.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:41 PM on January 31, 2021
Quite another to do it by force of necessity, while constantly feeling uncomfortable yourself.
Cannot at all relate to the parents in this article.
Oh, how web traffic affects the subconscious.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:41 PM on January 31, 2021
"As someone who was brought up entirely differently, and is always code switching and reading the room and got burned when being honest, I loved this essay. It's like a window into a different "what if".
What if I stopped filtering? What if I said "this is who I am, deal with it or get out of the way"?
As a person from similar, totally understand.
In given circumstances, very certain push-comes-to-shove, this is completely okay. Sometimes you rip the band-aid off and a person who could stand by be quiet awhile, or mend their own concerns, goes quiet and focuses on their own work instead of criticizing others or you. It's in certain times, an okay move.
Definitely not ideal, but I empathize with the reaction.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:50 PM on January 31, 2021
What if I stopped filtering? What if I said "this is who I am, deal with it or get out of the way"?
As a person from similar, totally understand.
In given circumstances, very certain push-comes-to-shove, this is completely okay. Sometimes you rip the band-aid off and a person who could stand by be quiet awhile, or mend their own concerns, goes quiet and focuses on their own work instead of criticizing others or you. It's in certain times, an okay move.
Definitely not ideal, but I empathize with the reaction.
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:50 PM on January 31, 2021
Cannot at all relate to the parents in this article.
There isn't much there about why they thought this was a good idea. Prolly a reaction to their own parents?
One day when my son was nine I asked him what his mom or stepdad had told him about X. "They don't tell me shit!" was his reply. What a mess.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:54 PM on January 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
There isn't much there about why they thought this was a good idea. Prolly a reaction to their own parents?
One day when my son was nine I asked him what his mom or stepdad had told him about X. "They don't tell me shit!" was his reply. What a mess.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:54 PM on January 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Dyak, I figured out that neurotypical people aren't especially good at empathy when I read one of Temple Grandin's memoirs. Her mother clearly wasn't picking up on her emotions.
I'm spectrumish or something myself, and I'm inclined to think that the vast majority of neurotypical people have a system of faking empathy which is good enough to mostly get by on.
I'm not a scammer, but it's obvious that a lot of people can't tell when they're being lied to.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:36 AM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm spectrumish or something myself, and I'm inclined to think that the vast majority of neurotypical people have a system of faking empathy which is good enough to mostly get by on.
I'm not a scammer, but it's obvious that a lot of people can't tell when they're being lied to.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:36 AM on February 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
"If I’m being honest, I doubt anyone thinks that. They may think that Michael is rude. They may think he overshares. They may want him to stop telling their kids that Santa isn’t real. But they are probably not thinking that Michael needs to ease up on the truth bombs."
To be fair, if being antagonized or raked over, it feels pretty cathartic to drop a fire'y inferno of truth bombs. Even if it's not the best idea, or even terribly embarrassing, or some kind of horrible psychological fluke/backfire.
Good luck, Michael. May your truth bombs clear the way.
posted by firstdaffodils at 6:50 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
To be fair, if being antagonized or raked over, it feels pretty cathartic to drop a fire'y inferno of truth bombs. Even if it's not the best idea, or even terribly embarrassing, or some kind of horrible psychological fluke/backfire.
Good luck, Michael. May your truth bombs clear the way.
posted by firstdaffodils at 6:50 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
The best ones are the truth cluster bombs, where people trip over themselves pushing back against the first uncomfortable truth they don't want to acknowledge in a way that lets you bring up more uncomfortable truths. I love the smell of truth-napalm in the morning.
posted by XMLicious at 6:57 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 6:57 PM on February 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm a street walkin' cheetah with a heart full of truth-napalm.
Legitimately laughed out loud. Thank you.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:54 PM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Legitimately laughed out loud. Thank you.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:54 PM on February 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
It is the way you tell the truth that matters. You can make it stark or empathetic and real adults get that. It's not about making people feel bad. Who gets off on that and why don't you find a new family? Sheez.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 12:58 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr. Yuck at 12:58 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
On a possibly related note: Imagine a workplace where you could actually tell the truth
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:41 PM on February 2, 2021
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:41 PM on February 2, 2021
Somewhere, Holden Caulfield rests in peace.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:18 PM on February 2, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:18 PM on February 2, 2021
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