The first democratic elections happened in 1996.
February 1, 2021 11:42 PM   Subscribe

Taiwan is a civilization (thread) - "Americans should be more aware of Taiwan... in addition to great public health and health care, Taiwan has great urbanism."[1,2,3,4,5]

also btw...
  • The Island the Left Neglected - "If the American left is serious about opposing a reactionary foreign policy that preserves unequal power relations, it should speak up for Taiwan."[6] (previously)
  • You Can Circumnavigate Taiwan In a Long Weekend - "And do tons of fun stuff along the way."[7]
  • Fun fact time: "The current President Tsai Ing-Wen who studied at Cornell and has a PhD from the London School of Economics is famously single but has two cats which often find themselves in many governmental images."
  • What is Under Heaven Belongs to All - "Henry George's most important disciple ended up being none other than Mr. Sun Yat-sen, Father of the Chinese Nation (國父 孫中山先生), also known as the Forerunner of the Revolution (革命先行者): the only historical figure august enough to transcend politics and command reverence from every corner of the Sinosphere."[8,9,10,11]
posted by kliuless (29 comments total) 31 users marked this as a favorite
 
It's nice to hear about places in the world doing well for a change.
posted by entity447b at 12:27 AM on February 2, 2021


I don't know if it's mentioned in the other links but the first above-the-fold article leaves out my favorite thing, as a USian, about Taiwan ever since I read about it in school—the five powers (五權憲法) constitution.

As I understand it, Sun Yat-sen took Montesquieu's tripartite executive / legislative / judicial separation of powers system and added two more branches of government: there are the Executive Yuan, the Legislative Yuan, and the Judicial Yuan and then furthermore the Examination Yuan based on China's traditional civil service examinations and the Control Yuan, a combination of roles like that of the US federal Government Accountability Office and the Scandinavian government ombudsman services.

Having just lived through the Reagan and Bush I eras and learning about the supposed checks and balances of our glorious republic, and feeling rather unimpressed, I was like “well now... that actually seems like quite a design improvement, to elevate those two things into their own branches”.

One of my big alternate history what-ifs has always been, what would the world be like if Sun Yat-sen hadn't died at 58?

Think Think and Ah Tsai have their own Wikipedia entry.
posted by XMLicious at 1:02 AM on February 2, 2021 [7 favorites]


I've been to Taipei a bunch of times over the past 20 years - here's my take on the wider political situation (I'm sure locals can provide a much more nuanced explanation).

These are broad strokes: Essentially there are two groups of people there, the native Han who arrived in the 1600s, who speak a dialect of Hokkien and the Nationalists who arrived after being driven from the Mainland by Mao in 1949, they speak Mandarin. The Nationalists ran a military dictatorship until the early 80s, politics since have been represented by two parties (blue and green) that (again broadly) represent these two groups.

One group believed they were the rulers of all China, the other wanted an independent Taiwan. Taiwan had been occupied by the Japanese from 1895-1945, that's a couple of generations of not being part of China, for a few days after the Japanese defeat Taiwan was independent, until troops arrived from the mainland.

Generations have passed, people's thinking has changed - the kids of the nationalist invaders are old, they still believe in one China, but are willing to agree that they probably don't rule it, some do good business across the strait. The Taiwanese still want to be an independent nation - the nationalists are now on the side of the CCP.

Both groups' great grandkids are into k-pop and probably see themselves as part of a greater Asian culture.

-------

So that's my outsider's take on Taiwan (mostly as explained to me by Taiwanese coworkers) - as I said above I'm trying to talk in generalisations - feel free to correct me. As a Kiwi I do sort of get the same feeling there I get back home living next to a bigger nation, I'm sure Canadians understand. It is also the only place I've ever been where I genuinely feel tall, small children are terrified by my beard - every so often I'd seen some 6ft American beanpole freak towering over the crowd
posted by mbo at 1:53 AM on February 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


I went to Taiwan in 1997, I enjoyed the computer game kiosks and dvd roms that were new then.
There were lots of "rotation sushi "shops and Japanese stainless steel benchtop eateries.
posted by Narrative_Historian at 2:01 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


what would the world be like if Sun Yat-sen hadn't died at 58?

That.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:23 AM on February 2, 2021


I came back to the USA in 1985 and people were sleeping on steam grates and there were two- person starwars machines in the arcade.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 2:27 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


Played a gig in Taipei in 1995. Enjoyed the city very much, and I'd love to go back again, but haven't had the chance. Here's a kinda funny story about it, though:

I was playing in an *avant-garde* (hey, to me it's all folk music, but most would call it avant-garde) unit with Japanese musicians Otomo Yoshihide (turntables, noise) and Uchihashi Kazuhisa (guitar). The organizers put us in a top hotel (a Hilton, IIRC) for two nights. The day before the gig, we went for a photo shoot, the photos to be included in promo for the gig. And the photo shoot was set up like a photo shoot for some pop idol or something. That is, we arrived at a photo studio, and were led into chairs for... makeup! Haha! Like we were Beyoncé or some boy band members. Incredible. I went along with it happily (cause like, hey, when the fuck will THIS ever happen again, right?). Otomo, however (a man of PRINCIPLES gaddammit!) was horrified. However, he relented. Hah! Let them beautify his big face. He gave the organizer a lot of grief afterward, though. I wish to HELL I had a copy of the paper those pics appeared in, if in fact they ever appeared.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:33 AM on February 2, 2021 [15 favorites]


Thanks mbo, that was really insightful. What struck me in particular when I was there two years ago: the fondness for Japanese culture. I never encountered this kind of respect for a former occupier anywhere else. Everything was better than being occupied by the Chinese, I guess. Japanese buildings are being restored, even that wonderful Japanese department store that is a weird nostalgia time machine, because it looks like early thirties Japan. We used the Taiwanese Shinkansen and also the slower trains were Japanese.
posted by ouke at 6:56 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


Taiwan might also be the biggest/most consequential user of Polis, something I'd shamefully never heard of until today. Curious about whether it's all just so much hopey-changey or if it's really made a difference.
posted by justinethanmathews at 9:23 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


These are broad strokes...

Not to nitpick, and I'm certainly not trying to "gotcha" anyone, but let's not forget the existence of the indigenous Taiwanese groups who'd been there for around 5,000 years before the Han arrived. They're about 2-3% of the population at present (what with, y'know, literally everyone trying to assimilate them for the last couple hundred years).
posted by aramaic at 10:32 AM on February 2, 2021 [10 favorites]


Aramaic: as I said 'broad strokes' - I'm very aware of the indigenous Taiwanese (after all I'm from NZ and the prevailing wisdom, from DNA, seems to be that they set off the whole polynesian diaspora that eventually resulted in the discovery of my own country) .... but they are sadly a tiny portion of the country and the larger events I was trying to sketch are largely driven by others (Japanese invasion, Nationalist invasion(s), the rise of China)
posted by mbo at 11:23 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


I'm part Taiwanese and I think it's safe to say that Taiwanese people love Japanese food and culture. As a child I now have a vague recollection being told that the Japanese occupation was bad, because war crimes. So it's not like people have exactly forgotten. I'm doing a Google search now and it's super interesting to see all these articles addressing the question of why Taiwanese seem warmer about the legacy of Japanese imperialism (compared to other countries such as South Korea or mainland China), the explanation being that the reasons for this is quite complex and multifacted due to Taiwan's unique historical position.
posted by polymodus at 4:49 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


So I saw the headline of the FPP this morning and thought "hm, that looks interesting, I'll have to remember to check that out", and then this afternoon I came back to it and discovered with delight that it's a kliuless post and thus full of fabulous context and fascinating links, few of which I will manage to read anytime soon. (But there's always next year!)

I am especially fascinated to learn that Sun Yat-sen was so influenced by Henry George!

And justinethanmathews, that article about Polis is REALLY interesting - thank you for posting it!

I definitely want to know more about Taiwan, and now I have all these wonderful resources at my fingertips.

Thank you so much for posting this, kliuless!
posted by kristi at 4:54 PM on February 2, 2021


* A Look at Taipei Zoning & City Planning from Albert Twu, creator of Bay Area Regional Planner
* The Paradise Bubble by Ann Chen, on Taiwan’s successful response to COVID-19 from Logic magazine
* Fork The Government by NPR, interviews with Taiwan's civic hackers who worked on the COVID-19 pandemic relief efforts, including Digital Minister Audrey Tang
posted by Apocryphon at 5:44 PM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


Thank you mbo for an excellent summary.

To expand on this part:
Essentially there are two groups of people there, the native Han who arrived in the 1600s, who speak a dialect of Hokkien and the Nationalists who arrived after being driven from the Mainland by Mao in 1949, they speak Mandarin. The Nationalists ran a military dictatorship until the early 80s... One group believed they were the rulers of all China, the other wanted an independent Taiwan.


Well... it wasn't just a matter of having different visions. It was a military invasion, occupation and martial law.

1. The Hokkien/Minnan Han arrived in the 1600s and settled into farming and trade, driving the Aborigines into the mountains. They speak BOTH Hokkien (at home) and Mandarin (at school and at work). Older generations still remember being punished at school for uttering even a word of Minnan.

2. The Nationalists arrived in 1945, and were not exactly nonviolent about it. The 228 massacre and ensuing White Terror has been swept under the carpet by martial law and successful propaganda.

3. The Japanese built infrastructure and provided opportunities e.g. in business and higher education. (Trivia: the inventor of Instant Noodles was a Taiwanese man who went to Japan.) The island was developed like a profitable colony, and was not under wartime occupation.

4. The KMT's martial law includes 1 year of mandatory military service for males. It is kind of pointless and resented.

5. This doesn't come up much because honestly, people just want to eat good food, take good care of family, and do well at school and at work.
posted by dum spiro spero at 8:05 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


Almost forgot: Taiwan Number One!
posted by dum spiro spero at 8:13 PM on February 2, 2021


Yes thanks - I guess mostly I was trying to describe the split that seems to go through so many parts of Taiwanese society that's more nuanced that the usual narrative of Taiwan that we see in the West - of the "valiant anti-communists facing down the CCP across the Strait".
posted by mbo at 8:47 PM on February 2, 2021


You Can Circumnavigate Taiwan In a Long Weekend

I didn't have a car to up Alishan Mountain when I visited year before last like this couple did, but I went up on the little forest rail (originally constructed for logging during the Japanese era) and it was an extraordinary ride. Amazing views and the surroundings are so close - can barely see around the bend, forest leaves brushing against the top and sides of the car, and then so wide as the vista opened up, mountains far as the eye can see. A couple of people were also using it to get back to their farms - just hopped out of the train at the little station and ducked across, into the little archway they'd cleared among the wall of leaves and back into the fields.

Wanted to go for a walk in the bamboo forest at Feng Chi Hu station but we needed to get to the B&B to rest, so we only stopped for a quick bento (it was/is a town that sold bentos for passengers along the way to other places) and a wander down the Old Street (charming, cramped) and did a loop round the train museum that was the old un/loading shed (??).

Visited Hualien for the first time too. I'd only ever lived in Taipei so it was a surprise to me how 'rural' it was - there were only a handful of lighted pedestrian crossings, the rest were zebra marked but otherwise use-your-common-sense-and-good-luck. The lunch place I'd googled wasn't open though we were there during opening hours; I guess they open when they feel like, which is a nice thing. The National Park was unbelievable, and it's so hard to get a sense of the scale of the cliffs through a photo.

Pretty worried that I won't be able to see older family members still alive before I go back again. Hope travel opens up again soon...
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 8:55 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


Since this seems to be an introduction to Taiwan thread I'll also drop in the popular eating brunch at a 7-Eleven vid [youtube, 16:45] (though likely this has come up on your youtubes recs before due to some algo or other)
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 9:06 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


My in-laws live in southern Taiwan and being in touch with them through this pandemic has been surreal. They went to their friend's kid's wedding in fall and sent us pictures. No masks, huge crowd, no worries. A little island of normalcy. We talk about moving there all the time - I think we would if it weren't for their big scary neighbor rattling the saber more and more with each passing year.

It's a lovely little country. I say that in full knowledge of what a loaded statement it is in some parts of the world. I've come to truly love it in my many visits over the years.
posted by potrzebie at 9:09 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


The co-existence of a minority within an imposed-but-culturally-similar government is indeed subtle - a bit like the Welsh in the UK, or the Catalan in Spain. It's a bit more than Kiwis and Aussies, though; not quite as much as maybe the Quebecois, but closer to the Walloons.

Anyway, if you learn a few phrases in Taiwanese, and not just Mandarin, the street food vendors will be super impressed and extra friendly.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:11 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


I was thinking of more with a larger not always friendly neighbour that without thinking can roll over you (and yes back when I made that connection I was thinking a bit about how the Aussies own almost all our banks and pull billions out of our economy to feed their retirement system, and force their chain department stores on us, probably without even knowing it's happening) .

More though I was expressing about a 'feeling' about the place - a small country trying slightly too hard to find a place in the world while dominated by a larger neighbour - something I certainly noticed in NZ when I moved back after 20 years in the US, and I could also see in Taiwan which is in even a worse situation because of the rather unique situation where most countries don't even recognise it as a nation
posted by mbo at 10:47 PM on February 2, 2021


The Hokkien/Minnan Han arrived in the 1600s and settled into farming and trade, driving the Aborigines into the mountains. They speak BOTH Hokkien (at home) and Mandarin (at school and at work). Older generations still remember being punished at school for uttering even a word of Minnan.

OMG, that slash and looking up Hokkien on Wikipedia, which in addition to also being known as Minnan and “Minnan Proper” is Fújiànhuà, Taiwanese, and I think Fujianese and Fukienese? which I mostly thought were different languages, has just fixed so much of my understanding, as it's evidently a group of mutually-intelligible Southern Min Sinitic language family dialects and hence sort of the same language. According to Wikipedia Hokkien historically served as the lingua franca amongst overseas Chinese communities of all dialects and subgroups in Southeast Asia and remains today as the most spoken variety of Chinese in the region... but I'm sure others here could tell me much more.
posted by XMLicious at 4:00 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]


I was really hoping to go to Taiwan last year, but you know, covid, so this is still on my bucket list. I have to say, the japanese cultural orientation that the taiwanese have accounts for significant level of the japanese drama imports into southeast asia via the mandarin dubs, as well as anime before more direct links were formed. It was also the same network that got the Hallyu wave going here, ie the Winter Sonata era.

And relatedly: remains today as the most spoken variety of Chinese in the region.

The way it's playing out here in sg/my, where the Chinese community still has a distinct sociocultural and political identity (unlike Indonesia, and also thailand tho that's also because they had a different path of integration assisted by a more shared religious practice) is that plenty do feel that Hokkien identity under threat for a while now, because unlike taiwan, the polity did choose association with China as one feature of that aforementioned distinct identity and mainland Mandarin is very much mainstreamed (evidenced by the choice of the modern script rather than the traditional).
posted by cendawanita at 4:37 AM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]


(tho of course, strictly speaking about Kuala Lumpur and that side of the west coast peninsula, that's dominated by cantonese speakers so they don't really share in that feeling because they could cultivate cultural and economic ties with hong kong which was of course the other non-china chinese reference point, and had british laws and customs)
posted by cendawanita at 4:43 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]


As a Taiwanese-American (dad is descended from the Hokkien-speaking Han mentioned upthread), I really encourage all the Americans in this thread to read the "The Island the Left Neglected" post in the FPP. (Great job on the FPP and thank you for posting, by the way!)

It's been talked about in a way previously on Metafilter, so I don't want to rehash that discussion or have this turn into another US politics thread -- I know there's a habit of turning all discussions to the US here!

But I can say that -- as a Taiwanese-American who simultaneously (1) is very much a liberal Democrat in the US context and (2) is also very much a proponent and booster of Taiwanese democracy and civil liberties, and against the PRC's suppression of Taiwan on the international scene -- it's been incredibly sad (and frustrating) to watch my dad and others like him fall into the right-wing thinking where the Republicans and the American right are the only real defenders of Taiwan.

(I also know there is/was not insignificant Taiwanese support for Trump and while I'm not going to make excuses for what I obviously believe to be misguided beliefs, to say the least, I think it's fair to say those individuals were responding to cues in the US political context.)
posted by andrewesque at 12:23 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]




I lived in Taiwan for over six years and am a permanent resident there. I love Taiwan, and miss it. I completed a circumnavigation of Taiwan (almost) on a motorcycle, accompanied by Enkigirl (who had her own motorcycle) exactly one year ago today. They were the quitessential Taiwanese motorbike, Sanyang Motors Wild Wolf 150cc bikes. Featuring classic 1960's design (and 1960s engineering), they are underpowered and clunky and absolutely the most fun I've ever had with an internal combustion vehicle. Highlights of the trip: climbing curvy mountain roads to the highest peak in Taiwan, where we spotted a tiny patch of snow about the size of a dinner plate. Stopping in an aboriginal village, where we enjoyed wild boar sausages grilled by an Amis man who refused to speak with us in Mandarin and instead griped effusively about Chinese tourists in pitch-perfect New York-accented English. Spying Formosan Black Bear poop, but not the elusive animal itself. Offered bow-and-arrow lessons at a beachside campsite by a Paiwan man who told us a space rocket was going to launch down the road from us later that year (which didn't quite happen, search out TiSpace for more info).

And finally, when we got to the high-speed rail station, we realized everything was going to change because 100% of humans in the station hall was wearing a mask. Word reached us of the pandemic even while on the road, and nothing would be the same.
posted by Enkidude at 1:15 PM on February 4, 2021 [5 favorites]


My week in Taiwan at the end of 2019 is near the top of my list for overseas adventures. The cultural politics are fascinating and kind of bewildering too.

For a really neat perspective ( and lovely story all around) i reccomend watching On Happiness Road
posted by blackfly at 1:11 PM on February 6, 2021


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