“I really like parties, because parties are supposed to be fun”
February 2, 2021 6:06 AM   Subscribe

 
Ok on point 12 (the first) I laughed out loud, embarrassing no one in my solitude far from Manhattan.
posted by sammyo at 6:18 AM on February 2, 2021


The second most famous person from my home-town in New Jersey (after Peter Dinklage)!
posted by octothorpe at 6:22 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


The Spike Lee/Sports incident where she tells him she does not like sports neglects to mention that she then casually informs him that she was at the Ali/Frazier fight, arguably the sports event of the century, which blew Spike Lee away. Not only that she was there with seats provided by Frank Sinatra!
posted by vacapinta at 6:23 AM on February 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


We've been watching this and...like it? Sorta? It does strike me sometimes as watching aged boomers walking around the city doing their best "Back when I was young, this place was amazing" routines.

Fran's charmingly curmudgeonly New Yorker character shines, if coming off a bit like a stereotype at times. Her occasional remembrances of the New York music scene in the 70's are particularly interesting to me.

Scorsese adds nothing to this (other than, perhaps, production money?) and, frankly, detracts from things quite often.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:29 AM on February 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


Only watched the first two but I'm really enjoying it and it makes me want to go back to New York again one day.
posted by crocomancer at 6:30 AM on February 2, 2021


Scorsese adds nothing to this (other than, perhaps, production money?) and, frankly, detracts from things quite often.

Except for directing every episode.
posted by octothorpe at 6:37 AM on February 2, 2021 [12 favorites]




Except for directing every episode.

I'm just saying he should have stayed behind the camera.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:31 AM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


I really enjoyed this series, and would love to see Public Speaking. There are snippets on YT and a DVD for $24 on Amazon, but I would think HBO would want to stream it again at some point.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:48 AM on February 2, 2021


I'm just saying he should have stayed behind the camera.


Oh I don't know--he doesn't offer much in the way of his own interjections, but she obviously relishes his laughter, and there's some motive for her in that.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:51 AM on February 2, 2021 [10 favorites]


I'm not a New Yorker but I had a lot of fun watching this series, and will be including this bit about "challenges" in the book I'm writing about gamification:
This is a big thing that people say all the time: “I wanna challenge myself.” These challenges are fake. Climbing a mountain is a fake challenge. You don’t have to climb a mountain. There are many things that people have to do and should do that they don’t do because they’re scared to do or they’re hard to do or they’re bad at it. Those are challenges. A challenge is something you have to do. Not something you make up.

People do all these kind of what used to be called “extreme things”. Now, many people participate in them. “I wanted to challenge myself.” I always think, “What kind of life do you have?” I find real life challenging enough.

I’m telling you something, if I get to the dry cleaners without having a huge fight and even get the clothes there and get them back without yelling, “I’m gonna sue you!” or having someone threaten me, that’s challenge enough. I always think, “Really?” Real life has always been challenging enough to me. I do not need to seek out these completely fantastical challenges.
posted by adrianhon at 7:54 AM on February 2, 2021 [24 favorites]


Speaking as an east coast liberal type who's been to New York a lot and enjoy it, I have to say, I started watching it and remembered how completely bored I am by New York people talking about New York.
posted by transient at 8:02 AM on February 2, 2021 [23 favorites]


It's amazing Lebowitz still feels fresh, but it's because her particular kind of comfort in having an independent point of view is falling out of fashion -- to the youngest among us it feels like a rejection of the good parts of the hivemind, like she's one notch away from the redpill.

This is, of course, stupid, and any New Yorker can tell you at our best we have (or had) subcultures which encourage a proto-Third-Way that pretends at being apolitical but actually is quite humanistic, focused on the present, and without reverence for moldy idols.

Nevermind that complaining about slow-moving tourists and gentrification is absolutely mainstream discourse in every part of the world now -- while I agree 'Pretend' is unduly focused on those surface-level observations, it only feels that way because underneath it all Lebowitz represents the freedom to be both 'progressive' and yet retain a special kind of individualism that, unfortunately, reads aggressively in mainstream culture today. As nobody's stepped up to the plate to replace her, we're stuck with old references.
posted by justinethanmathews at 8:04 AM on February 2, 2021 [14 favorites]


Speaking as an east coast liberal type who's been to New York a lot and enjoy it, I have to say, I started watching it and remembered how completely bored I am by New York people talking about New York.

Yes yes, Boston's nice too.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:14 AM on February 2, 2021 [24 favorites]


I'm not a US American and I have no idea how a person could watch this series and not fall absolutely in love with every moment of it.

I'm not a boomer and I don't get the all-too-standard boomer dismissal. Two people who happen to love New York and spent much of their creative lives tied to a place.. once the laughter dies down you have to see this for what it is: elegy. It's lovely, I could be wrong, but man is this space snarky at times. Don't folks have better things to do?

edit: less Martin Scorcese? He brings nothing? dear lord, go re-watch the MCU series or something.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:20 AM on February 2, 2021 [23 favorites]


and remembered how completely bored I am by New York people talking about New York

Wait what? New York is a real place and not just a collection of stereotypes on TV?

-a west-coaster
posted by azuresunday at 8:22 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


The story about how when she first got to NYC in the 70s she left an apple and a pencil in her (shitbox) car and someone smashed the window and took them and she told a cop and he was like "Well, yeah, you leave stuff in plain view like that and that's gonna happen . . . "

That story was essentially the perfect encapsulation of my life growing up here in the 1970s, and I just love every moment of this series, even when I'm like "c'mon, Fran, really?". It makes me feel privileged to be able to stay here and raise my own family here -- through thick, thin, and pandemic -- even as people spout prophecies of doom and flee for the 'burbs.

Scorsese adds nothing to this . . .

Strongly disagree. Leaving aside the fact that he made it, he also clearly adores her and is having a blast, and his pleasure is infectious. I'm glad he's there.
posted by The Bellman at 8:29 AM on February 2, 2021 [11 favorites]




First thought: now I know where Edna came from. And who voiced them.

Upon googling: Brad Bird?
posted by tspae at 8:58 AM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


Fran Lebowitz hasn't published original material for adults since 1981. Apparently has the world's worst writer's block. So, instead, she's dedicated her life to being "Fran Lebowitz," perhaps in the same way that Oscar Levant gave up piano concerts and recordings to become "Oscar Levant, game show curmudgeon."

Her shtick is of an era. Back when Elaine's was a Thing. It's not to everyone's taste, including mine, and I'm a New Yorker of that era.

edit: less Martin Scorcese? He brings nothing? dear lord, go re-watch the MCU series or something.

Thanks, I still have that last season of Jessica Jones to catch.
posted by the sobsister at 9:02 AM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


Bowen Yang on SNL does Fran Lebowitz and it's amazing. (YT)

Bowen did a good job on capturing some of her physical tics. But I reject the premise of the whole bit, where the joke is asserting that Fran says random, unfunny observations and Scorsese is irrationally apoplectic about it.

Fran made me and my partner laugh out loud several times. And my partner went in with arms crossed challenging Fran to convince her.

And the portrayal of Scorsese is especially rich coming from Kyle Mooney, who has never made me laugh once in anything I've ever seen him in. That guy is comedy kryptonite (*personal opinion, ymmv, notallkylemooneys*).
posted by ishmael at 9:04 AM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


First thought: now I know where Edna came from. And who voiced them.

Yes, Brad Bird, but you're looking for Edith Head.
posted by The Bellman at 9:10 AM on February 2, 2021 [11 favorites]


And I really appreciated her take on the MeToo movement, which because of her reputation of being a curmudgeon, might actually pierce the contrarian veil of those Bill-Mahery, "cancel culture is the worst scourge in the world today" types.
posted by ishmael at 9:11 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


I always enjoyed it when Lebowitz showed up on Letterman's show. Unfortunately this is one of the few cases where I regret not having any TV or streaming services, since it means I can't watch this series.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:24 AM on February 2, 2021


It seems that Ginia Bellafante (see Agent Cooper’s link above) and I are the only naysayers here. Bellafante’s gripe is mostly with Lebowitz’s curmudgeonly shtick, and her opinion piece can be nicely summed up as, “Oh, can it, Fran.” I couldn’t agree more. I read Lebowitz’s books of pithy aphorisms (read: one-liners) in the 80s, and the only one that stuck with me is, “Candied violets are the Necco wafers of the overbred.” Forgive me if I say that this is simply a) not funny and b) dumb. Frannie’s been working this stuff for nigh on forty years now. She’s often compared to Dorothy Parker, but that’s hopelessly inaccurate because Parker was a real writer: a critic, a screenwriter, a short story writer. You can call Lebowitz a gadfly, a flaneuse, or—stretching it—an extremely minor cultural critic, but don’t make her some kind of icon based on quirky one-liners.
posted by scratch at 9:24 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


Forgive me if I say that this is simply a) not funny and b) dumb.

Forgive us if some disagree.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:26 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


Given the recent MetaTalk about snark in threads, if they don't have specific observations or criticisms about this show, maybe those who generally find the topic or the people dumb and/or boring might consider skipping this thread?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:32 AM on February 2, 2021 [9 favorites]


Fran Lebowitz hasn't published original material for adults since 1981. Apparently has the world's worst writer's block. So, instead, she's dedicated her life to being "Fran Lebowitz," perhaps in the same way that Oscar Levant gave up piano concerts and recordings to become "Oscar Levant, game show curmudgeon."

There used to be a lot of that on talk shows and game shows. People like Truman Capote or Orson Welles who hadn't managed to finish a project in years but were charming and outrageous and showed up on Carson or Cavett regularly.
posted by octothorpe at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2021 [8 favorites]


Isn't snark Lebowitz's entire schtick?
posted by zamboni at 9:41 AM on February 2, 2021 [10 favorites]


Public Speaking is worth seeking out and watching, if you liked Pretend. It's a shorter and more tightly edited work.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:12 AM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


Given the recent MetaTalk about snark in threads, if they don't have specific observations or criticisms about this show, maybe those who generally find the topic or the people dumb and/or boring might consider skipping this thread?

Snark and contrarianism seem appropriate given the topic; however, it does seem that the snark should make an effort to entertain.

Personally, I enjoyed it, but I'm a New York stan (New Yorkaphile? New Yorkaboo?), and I can see how someone who is less enamoured of tall buildings and grumpy assholes may not feel the same.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:19 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


I'm glad he's there.

So am I. Of all the things Scorsese could have done at this point in his career, becoming Ed McMahon is by far the most fascinating.
posted by MrBadExample at 10:19 AM on February 2, 2021 [12 favorites]


Love that bit about challenges. You want a challenge, motherfucker, try being Black. Or trans. Or disabled. Or poor. Or neuratypical. Or all five!
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:35 AM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


“Scorcese laughing”
posted by beesbees at 10:46 AM on February 2, 2021


This is a great essay about Fran by Daisy Alito.
posted by Dmenet at 11:55 AM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


I like Fran. It's as close as I'll get to seeing Dorothy Parker at the Algonquin...
posted by jim in austin at 11:59 AM on February 2, 2021


Not quite my thing, but I really appreciate your FPP energy, adrianhon!
posted by Omnomnom at 12:37 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


I mostly liked the show because she sounds so much like my mother who I miss so much. I have some vague memory of my mom mentioning that she knew Lebowitz or maybe she knew her parents? They had a furniture store in my town and my mother knew everyone so it's likely.
posted by octothorpe at 1:25 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


I think one of the things I like best about our young 21st century is how Twitter has democratized the dissemination of wit. Anyone can issue pithy opinions about anything now -- you no longer need to be in the right cities and know the right people so you can have access to the right cultural outlets. It's wrecked the ability to make a living as a professional quip generator or opinion-haver, true, but it's democratized the access. Leibowitz is one of the most obvious examples of professional opinion-havers to benefit from the pre-Twitter gatekeeping. The marvel is that she still effectively operates on a pre-Twitter scale of economy and access.

I do find Leibowitz appealing in the same way I find the continued existence of the coelacanth appealing -- for these living relics of earlier worlds to continue thriving in their little niches is a little everyday miracle. Fran Leibowitz arose from an earlier period and did not move into the subsequent ones; she kept on keeping on with being who she was at the moment who she was worked for her.

This series celebrates a cultural coelacanth and it's fun to see a living fossil move through the present.
posted by sobell at 1:29 PM on February 2, 2021 [9 favorites]


Thanks for that link, Dmenet. Maybe I'm reading it too quickly, but I think the author is a little hard on Fran - it's nice to think people should wear their hearts on their sleeves and be vulnerable (and they should!) but I think it's kind of a hard sell to boomers and early gen-xers who didn't exactly grow up in the "It gets better"/no-bullying zeitgeist that younger folks have grown up with. I mean, there's gotta be some scars there growing up lesbian in the 50s, no? Even if that generation did go on to flout and break down some of those barriers, they also are probably worse for the wear for it.

However, I also get the frustration/resentment of having to put up with well-established boomers/x-ers play-acting at being outsiders, not making room, etc. That's really fucking annoying too.
posted by flamk at 1:31 PM on February 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


We enjoyed the series. I thought Scorcese was a bit too obsequious, especially in the segments shot in front of an audience, where he seemed to laugh at anything... but clearly they're good friends, and the series is nicely structured.

I'm really sorry she isn't still writing, cos I don't watch many talk-shows where she might show up.

I don't think she's entirely a living fossil. Her resistance to technology didn't seem quaint. Yes it's part of the fabric of modern life now, but can all of you state that most of the non-work time you spend online is superior to a real conversation over coffee, or a book, or a walk on a nice day? I think more of us need to hear her perspective on our modern quirks and obsessions.

Imagine if she had a regular podcast...
posted by Artful Codger at 1:50 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


someone gets to be Fran Lebowitz and some of us take pleasure in that

I don't know what the rest of you are doing here
posted by elkevelvet at 2:41 PM on February 2, 2021 [16 favorites]


Lebowitz's observations about white people and Black people in the U.S. have stuck with me for a long time:
The way to approach it, I think, is not to ask, “What would it be like to be black?” but to seriously consider what it is like to be white. That’s something white people almost never think about. And what it is like to be white is not to say, “We have to level the playing field,” but to acknowledge that not only do white people own the playing field but they have so designated this plot of land as a playing field to begin with. White people are the playing field. The advantage of being white is so extreme, so overwhelming, so immense, that to use the word “advantage” at all is misleading since it implies a kind of parity that simply does not exist.

It is now common — and I use the word “common” in its every sense — to see interviews with up-and-coming young movie stars whose parents or even grandparents were themselves movie stars. And when the interviewer asks, “Did you find it an advantage to be the child of a major motion-picture star?” the answer is invariably “Well, it gets you in the door, but after that you’ve got to perform, you’re on your own.” This is ludicrous. Getting in the door is pretty much the entire game, especially in movie acting, which is, after all, hardly a profession notable for its rigor. That’s how advantageous it is to be white. It’s as though all white people were the children of movie stars. Everyone gets in the door and then all you have to do is perform at this relatively minimal level.

Additionally, children of movie stars, like white people, have at — or actually in — their fingertips an advantage that is genetic. Because they are literally the progeny of movie stars they look specifically like the movie stars who have preceded them, their parents; they don’t have to convince us that they can be movie stars. We take them instantly at face value. Full face value. They look like their parents, whom we already know to be movie stars. White people look like their parents, whom we already know to be in charge. This is what white people look like — other white people. The owners. The people in charge. That’s the advantage of being white. And that’s the game. So by the time the white person sees the black person standing next to him at what he thinks is the starting line, the black person should be exhausted from his long and arduous trek to the beginning.
That's from a 1997 interview in Vanity Fair.
posted by cgc373 at 2:58 PM on February 2, 2021 [64 favorites]


I like Fran. It's as close as I'll get to seeing Dorothy Parker at the Algonquin..

I stayed there once, in 1997. It was fun. They were renovating the room where they keep the Round Table, though.
posted by thelonius at 3:11 PM on February 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


I apologize if my post contained snark; I was addressing my own reaction to the series (it's ok to not just praise, right?) I love New York, my wife grew up there, etc; I didn't really articulate how much her discomfort in even leaving Manhattan for the film was an illustration of some people's conceptions of the city as both a literal and metaphorical island, that with all the world-class museums, theater, and everything else, that there is little importance or relevance to anything that happens in the world outside. That's not everybody, it's not the only city that does it (hi, Boston!). I hope that clarifies how I thought it was relevant to the series under discussion. And yes, she's funny.
posted by transient at 3:26 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


It seems that Ginia Bellafante (see Agent Cooper’s link above) and I are the only naysayers here.

I wasn’t impressed, either. It’s as if someone decided to try her hand at observational comedy without once watching another observational comedian, just zero sense of what angles have been done. I’m sure this is to an extent an example of the way an original becomes cliché with imitation but this is the material she’s delivering right now.
posted by atoxyl at 4:03 PM on February 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


I guess I found it amusing until around episode 4 or 5 when her casual transphobia just sort of bubbled up to the surface with that whole "nowadays you can't say that" comment and the kicker punchline about "identifying" that is the ONE and only hi-larious joke that every transphobe seems to have.
It sort of took the sheen off of her 'loveable-old-curmudgeon' thing for me and I stopped watching after that episode because, wow, gross.
posted by chococat at 4:49 PM on February 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


The curmudgeonly allure seems somewhat fainter, with the occasional glimmer of wit vaguely reminiscent of the fondness for an old lost love affair.
posted by ovvl at 6:28 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


I have spent most of the day listening to various old interviews with Fran Lebowitz from the 80s/90s. I had forgotten how much she hit the right note for me, so thank you for this post. I really needed this.
posted by blurker at 7:22 PM on February 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


I watched this, mostly with delight. Ever since I was a kid and found out about her, I've been awed by Lebowitz because I was, well, mystified.

How does she do it? She doesn't write much, by her own admission. She's not rich, and her parents don't seem to have been. She was beautiful, but she never dressed for the male eye. And she's not nice. She's an incredibly funny, iconic presence, but I bet every one of us knows an incredibly funny, iconic presence that never got famous. What happened? I think she went to the right parties. That's not a putdown; it is an excellent thing to do and a real skill. She made good friends and kept them. And that's great. She has been amazing.

But while I was watching her and Scorsese, I felt a sudden resentment. It seemed like the meal at their table was the experience of living in New York City, and they and all the people their age had eaten it up, leaving nothing for the people who came after. The idea passed away quickly, of course, but the feeling lingered.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:22 PM on February 2, 2021 [8 favorites]


We enjoyed visiting NYC from the 80's through 2010. Fran is a history lesson in herself. She knew Charlie Mingus and was good friends with Toni Morrison. She has her shtick. Yes, some of the younger (and older too?) people here may not care for her. She has opinions and is not afraid to express them. She reads books. She makes me laugh. Plus she called the recently expelled pseudo-president "a poor person's idea of what a rich person is." Plus she didn't like Andy Warhol.
posted by DJZouke at 5:58 AM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]


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