Waking the Leviathan
February 3, 2021 9:24 AM Subscribe
The story of how James S.A. Corey’s The Expanse went from game concept to blockbuster TV series: From failed MMO pitch to play-by-email roleplaying game to novels to television.
Well, this has finally laid to rest my vision of the Roci crew sitting in one room rolling dices onto their character sheets.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 10:37 AM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 10:37 AM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm glad the article makes clear that you SHOULD NOT attempt to turn your tabletop role playing campaign into a novel, even though in this one instance it worked. I have not read the novels. From what I've read about them, they are better at some things than the series, but the series also does a lot of things better than the novels. They are different forms of the same basic story, neither necessarily taking precedence over the other (with Abraham and Franck deeply involved in the series, you can basically give them authorship of both).
There is a role playing game based on the series if you want to play your own stories in that universe.
posted by rikschell at 10:41 AM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
There is a role playing game based on the series if you want to play your own stories in that universe.
posted by rikschell at 10:41 AM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wow, that explains to me what I found so off about the Expanse books, fun though they can be.
posted by pan at 10:45 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by pan at 10:45 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've read all the books and we're big fans of the series. Holden never clicked for my partner until I told her the RPG background. "Oh! He's a Paladin! Now he makes sense."
posted by thecjm at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
The books are fine and enjoyable and all, but the show is exceedingly good. If one was turned off by the books, I would certainly try giving the show a good go. I personally find it the best science fiction show that has graced episodic TV since Battlestar Galactica. It helps that it’s the most thoroughly thought out hard(ish) sci fi available.
It’s an interesting little universe they’re exploring, and I wish wish wish there would be a further exploration of belter culture on a companion show. Belt anthology please and thank you.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2021 [21 favorites]
It’s an interesting little universe they’re exploring, and I wish wish wish there would be a further exploration of belter culture on a companion show. Belt anthology please and thank you.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2021 [21 favorites]
I agree with you Pan it explains a lot about the plotting of the books.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm reading the books before I even start the show.
I watched the first four seasons, then read all the books, and rewatched the first three seasons again before season 5.
I think the show is much better than the books, and I don't often say that.
posted by Foosnark at 11:15 AM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I watched the first four seasons, then read all the books, and rewatched the first three seasons again before season 5.
I think the show is much better than the books, and I don't often say that.
posted by Foosnark at 11:15 AM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Cigarettes in space? C'mon.
"They obsess over air filters and then suck poisonous particulates into their lungs recreationally. It’s a fabulous culture."
posted by nathan_teske at 11:16 AM on February 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
"They obsess over air filters and then suck poisonous particulates into their lungs recreationally. It’s a fabulous culture."
posted by nathan_teske at 11:16 AM on February 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm halfway through book 8 and it's been just a great ride. Biggest non-spoiler surprise is the books 7 and 8 have been 2 of my favorites so far. I feel like the books are getting *better*. Show is great too, but I really prefer the depth in the books.
posted by freecellwizard at 11:24 AM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 11:24 AM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm glad the article makes clear that you SHOULD NOT attempt to turn your tabletop role playing campaign into a novel, even though in this one instance it worked
In the TTRPG world there are persistent but unconfirmed rumours that Firefly had its genesis in a tabletop game of Traveller that Whedon played in in college. It certainly feels like it could be true.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:26 AM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
In the TTRPG world there are persistent but unconfirmed rumours that Firefly had its genesis in a tabletop game of Traveller that Whedon played in in college. It certainly feels like it could be true.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:26 AM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
It /sounds/ like the Expanse was an RPG run a handful of times before the first book was written; it's not clear to me how much the later books are continuing RPG adventures. But it would explain why we still have to follow around the same band of misfits.
The thing I found most exciting about the Expanse was the transition through these multiple stages of humanity expanding into the great unknown, from mostly-dependent on earth, to an uninhabitable earth, to making new homes on other worlds, to other worlds becoming their own cultural centers. And so it's actually kinda jarring that the main cast stays the same over the first eight books; I could totally get behind something like triplets of books handing off between different main casts, even with some overlap between them. (eg, Holden shows up in book 4 as his ship gets stolen and he wanders off to die of old age, while a new adventure begins.)
That said, the quality of the books is /incredibly/ consistent. I've seen sooooo many series crash and burn in so many ways, and seeing this epic just stretch on and out across so many books is really quite Something.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:27 AM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
The thing I found most exciting about the Expanse was the transition through these multiple stages of humanity expanding into the great unknown, from mostly-dependent on earth, to an uninhabitable earth, to making new homes on other worlds, to other worlds becoming their own cultural centers. And so it's actually kinda jarring that the main cast stays the same over the first eight books; I could totally get behind something like triplets of books handing off between different main casts, even with some overlap between them. (eg, Holden shows up in book 4 as his ship gets stolen and he wanders off to die of old age, while a new adventure begins.)
That said, the quality of the books is /incredibly/ consistent. I've seen sooooo many series crash and burn in so many ways, and seeing this epic just stretch on and out across so many books is really quite Something.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:27 AM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
In the TTRPG world there are persistent but unconfirmed rumours that Firefly had its genesis in a tabletop game of Traveller that Whedon played in in college. It certainly feels like it could be true.
If I ever get the chance to ask Joss Whedon a question in private, it will be, "Was Firefly partly inspired by Brian Daley's Han Solo novels?"
posted by The Tensor at 11:33 AM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
If I ever get the chance to ask Joss Whedon a question in private, it will be, "Was Firefly partly inspired by Brian Daley's Han Solo novels?"
posted by The Tensor at 11:33 AM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Cigarettes in space? C'mon.
OK, this must be the thread where I can complain about how The Expanse handles gravity, right?
posted by nickmark at 11:34 AM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
OK, this must be the thread where I can complain about how The Expanse handles gravity, right?
posted by nickmark at 11:34 AM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
go for it.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:39 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by soundguy99 at 11:39 AM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Cigarettes in space? C'mon.Until 2010, you could smoke onboard submerged US Navy submarines. Not quite the same thing, but in the same ballpark.
posted by Hatashran at 11:40 AM on February 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
I heard that "Adventure Zone" graphic novel series drawn by Carey Pietsch and written by Clint McElroy is also based on a tabletop game. Man, I bet it would have been fun to listen in on those sessions.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:44 AM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 11:44 AM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
Cigarettes in space? C'mon.
Haven't read the books, enjoying the hell of the show, but this seems ridiculously pedantic. It would be surprising if there wasn't cigarettes in large space colonies. People gotta be people!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:46 AM on February 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Haven't read the books, enjoying the hell of the show, but this seems ridiculously pedantic. It would be surprising if there wasn't cigarettes in large space colonies. People gotta be people!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:46 AM on February 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
The thing about this series, in comparison to BSG, is that in The Expanse, when someone says they have a plan, they actually have a plan.
They show a little bit of zero-g on the show, but it's expensive, slow, and annoying to do constant wire work. So the ships are often under thrust (giving enough "gravity" for things to fall and people to stick to the floor, etc), or people are wearing mag boots (you can hear the clank as they step), which at least causes people to stick to the floor. Haircuts are short or tied in a bun so they don't have to do floaty hair in every scene. They do a little bit of floaty-elbows in some scenes, but it's not very consistent. I think they want people to be paying attention to what's going on in the scene and not distracted by people's weird zero-g stances. They've made it very clear that the drama comes before the science (engine sounds in space in 3rd person shots, etc). But in a different way than typical Star Trek, where the technobabble doesn't particularly need to make sense. For the time being, animation is still the only cost-effective way to dramatize zero-g for more than short scenes (which is basically what the movie Gravity did).
posted by rikschell at 12:00 PM on February 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
They show a little bit of zero-g on the show, but it's expensive, slow, and annoying to do constant wire work. So the ships are often under thrust (giving enough "gravity" for things to fall and people to stick to the floor, etc), or people are wearing mag boots (you can hear the clank as they step), which at least causes people to stick to the floor. Haircuts are short or tied in a bun so they don't have to do floaty hair in every scene. They do a little bit of floaty-elbows in some scenes, but it's not very consistent. I think they want people to be paying attention to what's going on in the scene and not distracted by people's weird zero-g stances. They've made it very clear that the drama comes before the science (engine sounds in space in 3rd person shots, etc). But in a different way than typical Star Trek, where the technobabble doesn't particularly need to make sense. For the time being, animation is still the only cost-effective way to dramatize zero-g for more than short scenes (which is basically what the movie Gravity did).
posted by rikschell at 12:00 PM on February 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
There's a lot of little things that I could quibble about (plots/characters sometimes leaning not-innovative), but the really important space opera thing (space ships shooting fricking lasers at each other) is done really well on the TV version.
posted by ovvl at 12:12 PM on February 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 12:12 PM on February 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
OH HEY.
The Expanse has carved a peculiar place in my life as the work of fiction I am the most obsessed with that I cannot get anyone else in my IRL-life interested in. I have the kind of nerdy friends one would expect of me and all of them have struggled to get into the show. One friend is obsessed with bad-boy struggling anti-heroes (she crushed hard on Sawyer from Lost followed by Daryl from the Walking Dead..., I've told her all about Amos and NOTHING. One friend is a big table top RPG player, loves Critical Role, and has heard about the history of the Expanse numerous times from me, NOTHING. Sci-Fi geeks, fans of slow TV, none of them have taken to show. I walk around with an MCRN patch on my backpack and an OPA mask and no one has said anything at work or anywhere else. This show supposedly had a well over half million in the demo! At least I have James SA Corey's twitter account to read when I want to see how people are reacting to the most recent episodes.
I get that the pacing is super uneven. Parts of the first 1.5 seasons are too slow. Once you get used to it, you may not be paying enough attention when things speed up at the end of season 2. It's weird that Season 1.5 - 2.5 works better as a self contained story than any of the individual seasons until season 4, which is also the story I care the least about (though some people love season 4).
I get that the writing sometimes seems uneven. You have to do a lot of the leg work on your own when it comes to explaining some characters' motivation. (I think we've been spoiled by Mad Men, Breaking Bad, and Early Game of Thrones when it comes to expectations of dialogue in serialized TV... I still think even the weakest writing on Expanse is better than The Good Wife or whatever ironing TV you prefer, it's just soooo many characters and sooooo many foreign worlds to explain.
Anyways, I'm watching Season 5 finale tonight. Amos and Peaches have already made me cry once this season. Drummer's storyline makes me sad/angry in the same ways that reading the news does, I'm excited to see her see some peace over the next season (I'm at least a little hopeful of that). I am very happy that there hasn't been much Holden this season, I really I wish the show made fun of Holden more and was very happy when the Butcher of Anderson Station remarked about "Is that really the way you go through life?" after Holden pressed that button.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:34 PM on February 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
The Expanse has carved a peculiar place in my life as the work of fiction I am the most obsessed with that I cannot get anyone else in my IRL-life interested in. I have the kind of nerdy friends one would expect of me and all of them have struggled to get into the show. One friend is obsessed with bad-boy struggling anti-heroes (she crushed hard on Sawyer from Lost followed by Daryl from the Walking Dead..., I've told her all about Amos and NOTHING. One friend is a big table top RPG player, loves Critical Role, and has heard about the history of the Expanse numerous times from me, NOTHING. Sci-Fi geeks, fans of slow TV, none of them have taken to show. I walk around with an MCRN patch on my backpack and an OPA mask and no one has said anything at work or anywhere else. This show supposedly had a well over half million in the demo! At least I have James SA Corey's twitter account to read when I want to see how people are reacting to the most recent episodes.
I get that the pacing is super uneven. Parts of the first 1.5 seasons are too slow. Once you get used to it, you may not be paying enough attention when things speed up at the end of season 2. It's weird that Season 1.5 - 2.5 works better as a self contained story than any of the individual seasons until season 4, which is also the story I care the least about (though some people love season 4).
I get that the writing sometimes seems uneven. You have to do a lot of the leg work on your own when it comes to explaining some characters' motivation. (I think we've been spoiled by Mad Men, Breaking Bad, and Early Game of Thrones when it comes to expectations of dialogue in serialized TV... I still think even the weakest writing on Expanse is better than The Good Wife or whatever ironing TV you prefer, it's just soooo many characters and sooooo many foreign worlds to explain.
Anyways, I'm watching Season 5 finale tonight. Amos and Peaches have already made me cry once this season. Drummer's storyline makes me sad/angry in the same ways that reading the news does, I'm excited to see her see some peace over the next season (I'm at least a little hopeful of that). I am very happy that there hasn't been much Holden this season, I really I wish the show made fun of Holden more and was very happy when the Butcher of Anderson Station remarked about "Is that really the way you go through life?" after Holden pressed that button.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:34 PM on February 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
MeFi had a very early "hey this is actually really very very good!!" reaction to The Expanse. Thanks, MeFi.
posted by whuppy at 12:47 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 12:47 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I always explain to people I'm trying to get to watch the show that it drops you into the middle of a lot of politics without a lot of guidance as to who is who or what is what, and you have to pay a lot of attention and take notes or do some side reading, at least initially. I mean, it's not as convoluted as Netflix's Dark, but it really really doesn't want to hold your hand. I tell people that it's worth it to figure out, and those who do have thanked me. But it's not a Star Wars or Star Trek thing, like at all.
posted by rikschell at 1:59 PM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 1:59 PM on February 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Read the first 4 of the books pre-show. Good reads (for Science Fiction I might even give it a Good+). For a collaboration it is actually better than I would have expected.
The show is (IMHO) better, but that is probably because that medium has a way of focusing your attention where they want it a bit better :)
posted by twidget at 2:02 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
The show is (IMHO) better, but that is probably because that medium has a way of focusing your attention where they want it a bit better :)
posted by twidget at 2:02 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Gravity is a big problem for almost all sci-fi that is on tv or film. The only way around it is to pretend that there is a gravity making device of some sort. At least the Expanse only has its artificial gravity in space stations and not on ships, but it's still inconsistent and difficult to understand how it all really works. IMO it's best just to suspend disbelief in a zero-g sort of way.
posted by chaz at 2:10 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by chaz at 2:10 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Watched the first couple seasons, then started reading the books. Continued watching, finished the books, started reading the standalone Kindle back-stories, continued watching. Love it all.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:18 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:18 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I find the depiction of gravity in the show as very much shown as accurately as a budget could allow.
When it matters, they throw money at showing the lack of gravity, or Coriolis effect enough so that you know it’s there. It’s sort of a handshake of “we know, we know, but we’re constrained by....earth, and a finite budget.”
It’s handled better than almost any other tv show had handled gravity, and better than a loooooot of movies too.
posted by furnace.heart at 2:27 PM on February 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
When it matters, they throw money at showing the lack of gravity, or Coriolis effect enough so that you know it’s there. It’s sort of a handshake of “we know, we know, but we’re constrained by....earth, and a finite budget.”
It’s handled better than almost any other tv show had handled gravity, and better than a loooooot of movies too.
posted by furnace.heart at 2:27 PM on February 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
Had heard about the franchise on and off over the years, but it never really drew me in until this past year, when I finally got my hands on the first book (thank you, digital lending!) Blew through it and then proceeded to binge the rest of the series. Really good stuff.
That being said, the TV series doesn't interest me as much, if at all...I already know what's going to happen, so there's no real suspense, *and* the special effects in my imagination are likely much better than what I'd see on TV :)
posted by zbaco at 2:32 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
That being said, the TV series doesn't interest me as much, if at all...I already know what's going to happen, so there's no real suspense, *and* the special effects in my imagination are likely much better than what I'd see on TV :)
posted by zbaco at 2:32 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I really hoped The Expanse would be made into an animated series so that we could get better representation of the physical differences between belters, martians and other.
And specially so we could get tons of free fall content. I half remember parts of the books describing rooms furnished for no gravity and the etiquette of agreeing on up an down when having group conversations.
I like to imagine an intimate meeting where everyone has their heads close together at the center, like molecules on a soap bubble.
posted by Dr. Curare at 2:44 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
And specially so we could get tons of free fall content. I half remember parts of the books describing rooms furnished for no gravity and the etiquette of agreeing on up an down when having group conversations.
I like to imagine an intimate meeting where everyone has their heads close together at the center, like molecules on a soap bubble.
posted by Dr. Curare at 2:44 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't mind the inconsistent portrayal of gravity; I understand they have a budget. But I am slightly annoyed by their selection of drinking vessels. How are the characters all drinking out of mugs, cups, and bottles in zero g? It seems well within the bounds of a limited budget to require the use of straws and squeeze bottles...
posted by ElKevbo at 2:46 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by ElKevbo at 2:46 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I can recommend Planetes for people who want to see an animated treatment of people hanging out in zero g with low tech. After 10 years I can't remember how well it holds up though.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:59 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:59 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
Here comes badass Amos, sippin' on his sippy cup.
posted by kaibutsu at 3:00 PM on February 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 3:00 PM on February 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
Is The upcoming Space Sweepers a live action adaptation of Planates? It seems to have some decent portrayals of zero g, but certainly seems less “hard science” than the expanse or planates.
posted by furnace.heart at 3:04 PM on February 3, 2021
posted by furnace.heart at 3:04 PM on February 3, 2021
OK, this must be the thread where I can complain about how The Expanse handles gravity, right?
If I was going to complain about anything, it'd be how they handled decompression. This last season had a handful of "...and then the outside airlock door slowly opened, and the person inside took a few seconds to react to the fact that the room they were standing in was now open to vacuum" situations, with two just last night.
posted by sideshow at 3:04 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
If I was going to complain about anything, it'd be how they handled decompression. This last season had a handful of "...and then the outside airlock door slowly opened, and the person inside took a few seconds to react to the fact that the room they were standing in was now open to vacuum" situations, with two just last night.
posted by sideshow at 3:04 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
At least secondhand smoke (or even firsthand) is not much of a concern in a world where even massive doses of radiation are fairly easily treatable. While they don't dwell on it a lot, medical tech and pharmaceuticals in particular are clearly fairly advanced. [They really only go into it where its directly plot relevant, like the aforementioned radiation, the high-G "juice", injections that help you survive in the vacuum of space, etc].
posted by thefoxgod at 3:13 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by thefoxgod at 3:13 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think the Expanse handles gravity -or the lack of it - *really* well.
Most of the events that are shipboard are when they're under main thrust. Although it's not shown *that* much, ships are built like buildings - usually the engines are at the base, then engineering, then crew quarters/mess halls etc, and the bridge at the nose. Hence the need to climb ladders or lifts to get between decks.
So when the ship is accelerating 'up' from the point of the view of the crew, you end up pressed 'down' in the other direction, into the deck, as does everything else. Which helpfully works a lot like earth gravity - if your ship is accelerating at 1g in one direction, it's exactly like it.
Under heavy accel of multiple g, you need a sturdy chair to sit in. (better than being squished to the floor, as we saw in a recent episode of a shuttle going up to Luna). Humans don't handle sustained high-g accel well, thus the need for the 'juice' to help the heart and reduce the risk of strokes. There's one point in season 2 where the Roci crew have to decide whether they're going to keep increasing thrust to try and keep visual contact with an object accelerating even faster than them - if they do, it will kill them.
If they want to slow down relative to something else, such as a station or planet, they need to point away and thrust in the other direction to cancel out their previous velocity.
Vessels can also use thrusters to go in other directions too, thus the chairs on combat ships being on gimbals (and seatbelts) so you don't get thrown sideways, but have the chair facing away from the direction of thrust at the time.
The handwavium is that ships CAN accelerate that much/that long without ridiculously large fuel stores; thus the 'epstein drive' that was invented by a Martian, that is far, far more efficient than anything we have. So the usual method of getting from one place to another is to accelerate towards where it's going to be (at a level that suits comfort vs urgency) then halfway, flip and burn the other - under thrust (and with pseudo-g) the whole way. From the point of the view of the crew, it's the same effect - being pushed towards the floor - regardless of which way the ship is pointed, and the place and velocity you need to reach. For speedier arrivals, and so you don't give the crew all strokes mid flight, you do a later, shorter, harder thrust when you're decelerating.
Stations (or hollowed out big rocks) are under spin, hence the appearance of a centrifugal force in a rotating frame of reference, or pseudogravity - again, the decks are orientated such that you're pulled into the floor.
For when ships are on the float, i.e. not under thrust, there's the aforementioned magboots, and keeping long hair etc under control in what is effectively a small metal box full of industrial machinery is just sensible, as is having loose things locked away or clamped down. They do plenty of visual effects shots with liquids or the like to remind you about the lack of thrust or rotation gravity, as well as crew in zero-g when important to the plot. Sure, they could do more shots of floating about (especially belter ships, where they definitely can't handle high-g the same as earthers having grown up in low-g environments), but given the lack of a real zero-g environment to film in, wire-work and effects shots get expensive real fast, so mag boots it is. But even so, those times are rare, as most of the time they're on a station, or going someplace.
I can't think of a single time where I've yelled 'it doesn't work like that!' at the Expanse when it comes to gravity - which is extremely rare in space TV/film for me.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:17 PM on February 3, 2021 [22 favorites]
Most of the events that are shipboard are when they're under main thrust. Although it's not shown *that* much, ships are built like buildings - usually the engines are at the base, then engineering, then crew quarters/mess halls etc, and the bridge at the nose. Hence the need to climb ladders or lifts to get between decks.
So when the ship is accelerating 'up' from the point of the view of the crew, you end up pressed 'down' in the other direction, into the deck, as does everything else. Which helpfully works a lot like earth gravity - if your ship is accelerating at 1g in one direction, it's exactly like it.
Under heavy accel of multiple g, you need a sturdy chair to sit in. (better than being squished to the floor, as we saw in a recent episode of a shuttle going up to Luna). Humans don't handle sustained high-g accel well, thus the need for the 'juice' to help the heart and reduce the risk of strokes. There's one point in season 2 where the Roci crew have to decide whether they're going to keep increasing thrust to try and keep visual contact with an object accelerating even faster than them - if they do, it will kill them.
If they want to slow down relative to something else, such as a station or planet, they need to point away and thrust in the other direction to cancel out their previous velocity.
Vessels can also use thrusters to go in other directions too, thus the chairs on combat ships being on gimbals (and seatbelts) so you don't get thrown sideways, but have the chair facing away from the direction of thrust at the time.
The handwavium is that ships CAN accelerate that much/that long without ridiculously large fuel stores; thus the 'epstein drive' that was invented by a Martian, that is far, far more efficient than anything we have. So the usual method of getting from one place to another is to accelerate towards where it's going to be (at a level that suits comfort vs urgency) then halfway, flip and burn the other - under thrust (and with pseudo-g) the whole way. From the point of the view of the crew, it's the same effect - being pushed towards the floor - regardless of which way the ship is pointed, and the place and velocity you need to reach. For speedier arrivals, and so you don't give the crew all strokes mid flight, you do a later, shorter, harder thrust when you're decelerating.
Stations (or hollowed out big rocks) are under spin, hence the appearance of a centrifugal force in a rotating frame of reference, or pseudogravity - again, the decks are orientated such that you're pulled into the floor.
For when ships are on the float, i.e. not under thrust, there's the aforementioned magboots, and keeping long hair etc under control in what is effectively a small metal box full of industrial machinery is just sensible, as is having loose things locked away or clamped down. They do plenty of visual effects shots with liquids or the like to remind you about the lack of thrust or rotation gravity, as well as crew in zero-g when important to the plot. Sure, they could do more shots of floating about (especially belter ships, where they definitely can't handle high-g the same as earthers having grown up in low-g environments), but given the lack of a real zero-g environment to film in, wire-work and effects shots get expensive real fast, so mag boots it is. But even so, those times are rare, as most of the time they're on a station, or going someplace.
I can't think of a single time where I've yelled 'it doesn't work like that!' at the Expanse when it comes to gravity - which is extremely rare in space TV/film for me.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:17 PM on February 3, 2021 [22 favorites]
The James SA Corey twitter account is pretty firm on decompression and vacuum exposure was written to be consistent to the best understanding of the physiology that we have available.
Which isn't much, to be fair. We simply have very few opportunities to examine people after they've been exposed to hard vacuum. But it does seem accurate that the main problem is asphyxiation, and short exposure aren't really that harmful. The main ways that the Expanse clashes with our expectations have more to do with how Total Recall and other suuper pulpy sci-fi dealt with it.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:20 PM on February 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
Which isn't much, to be fair. We simply have very few opportunities to examine people after they've been exposed to hard vacuum. But it does seem accurate that the main problem is asphyxiation, and short exposure aren't really that harmful. The main ways that the Expanse clashes with our expectations have more to do with how Total Recall and other suuper pulpy sci-fi dealt with it.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:20 PM on February 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
The ooooone quibble I have with respect to gravity is that using spin to create a centrifugal force in a hollowed out asteroid/planetoid like Eros or Ceres would almost certainly cause the rock to fracture and spin apart. Like, even if the Eros was solid rock and not a relatively loose amalgamation of various silicas, minerals and ice held together by very weak gravity... the outer layer of the asteroid would not only have to stay attached to the crust it would have to hold up an 8 kilometer column of rock above it (or below it?) that's being spun out at 0.2 g.
I mean you could argue there's some super structure of Hand-wavium lattice that's holding it together, but at that point why not use all that magical metal necessary to create the structure to just construct and Tycho style station.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:31 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I mean you could argue there's some super structure of Hand-wavium lattice that's holding it together, but at that point why not use all that magical metal necessary to create the structure to just construct and Tycho style station.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:31 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh... the mugs are supposed to be "Bulbs" that contain bladders under tension so you can drink it easily in zero-g but still set it down on a surface when feeling the apparent gravity of engine thrust. Also, budgets, suspension of disbelief. etc.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:34 PM on February 3, 2021
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:34 PM on February 3, 2021
I think the main quibble I have is that it takes a long time to go anywhere interesting - the books handle that OK, but the TV series does rather gloss over it - to be fair I'm not sure what they could do other then "6 weeks later" cut scenes
posted by mbo at 3:42 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mbo at 3:42 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Astronaut Don Pettit was tired of sippy-straws while on ISS, so he helped design Zero-G coffee cups that use surface tension and interior corner capillary flow to hold the hot liquid in a safe way. That would have been a neat bit of realism for the folded kapton sheet to appear in the show, although the capillary effect is less effective in 1G environments.
posted by autopilot at 4:10 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 4:10 PM on February 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
Given how cautious and conscientious ship builders tend to be about through-hull fittings below the water line, I just came in here to say that spaceships with inner and outer airlock doors that open automatically at the tap of a digitally controlled touchscreen looks like the most dangerously stupid idea in the history of forever.
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:23 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 4:23 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think the main quibble I have is that it takes a long time to go anywhere interesting
Constant acceleration drives are pretty crazy though. At 1g (including the deceleration phase), Mars is 2 days away from Earth at closest approach. Ceres is 4. Even covering, say, 6 AU for stuff on opposite sides of the sun only takes a week. 0.5g Belter ships add a couple of days to that. Earth-Saturn at 0.5g at their farthest distance takes a week and a half. During that "6 weeks later" cut scene you could pass Arrokoth, catch Voyager, and be well on your way to the Oort cloud.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 4:29 PM on February 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
Constant acceleration drives are pretty crazy though. At 1g (including the deceleration phase), Mars is 2 days away from Earth at closest approach. Ceres is 4. Even covering, say, 6 AU for stuff on opposite sides of the sun only takes a week. 0.5g Belter ships add a couple of days to that. Earth-Saturn at 0.5g at their farthest distance takes a week and a half. During that "6 weeks later" cut scene you could pass Arrokoth, catch Voyager, and be well on your way to the Oort cloud.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 4:29 PM on February 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
Well, the chance of something accidentally hitting an exterior control on a spaceship are dramatically lower than the same thing happening on a watership. [Also there could be some camera AI that verifies "yes its a person". Although then it could just open automatically if it sees a person trying to enter and is not a military ship / set to lock in some way. Other than active military conflicts or space piracy or something, you don't really need to lock your doors in space...]
posted by thefoxgod at 4:35 PM on February 3, 2021
posted by thefoxgod at 4:35 PM on February 3, 2021
OK, since I brought it up (mostly meant as jokey riffing on a comment in another thread), I'll elaborate on my gravity gripes.
First, though, let me be clear: I really really enjoy the show; it's a lot of fun and I look forward to new episodes every week (I've told my wife that "Wednesday is my Space Show night!"). I only started watching it in late December or early January and was super annoyed to discover it was still going on because that meant I had to wait for new episodes instead of being able to watch a new one each night! So all of this is coming from a place of love. (I have not read the books and can't decide whether I want to - definitely not until the show is done, though.)
I totally get that it's a show, suspension of disbelief, limited budget, all that. The thing about gravity is that it's so inconsistent. Even in a single scene! You'll have a character clanking around in their mag boots in their perfectly-draping outfit to go sit on a chair, and then the water spill floats around the room in bubbles! Or they're stirring a cup of coffee with no lid while the ship is parked!
I've read my share of hard and hard-ish sci fi and I get the "ship under thrust" idea, and spin, and all that. It had occurred to me to think about the times of travel at 1g that rhamphorynchus mentioned but I don't have enough sense of the relative distances to run that math in my head (and I may have been in the shower or something).
I'm fine with magboots, flip-and-burn, spin, all that stuff - I just feel like it's applied so inconsistently. Effectively, it's like they showed magboots early in season one and then treat it as if everywhere has magical artificial gravity except when they want to show something cool (like a ship flipping, or water blobs) or drive a plot point. Which, two things: first, fine! It's a show and you can do that! It doesn't diminish my enjoyment, honestly - but there are definitely a fair number of times that it does actually pull me out of the moment and make me go "it wouldn't work like that!"
Second: we've got handwavium that gives us the Epstein drive and the magic autodoc that heals whatever's wrong with you if you stick your arm in the cuff for long enough - surely a little handwavium early on about "wear these magboots just in case the artificial gravity generators have an issue" would have been easy to throw in early on.
Again, I really dig the show and this is more affectionate ribbing than a genuine gripe. Think of it in the same kind of "are you kidding?" laugh as the name "protomolecule." (It's a terrifying and mysterious alien technology! How many times can we make the actors crack up saying its name?)
posted by nickmark at 5:23 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
First, though, let me be clear: I really really enjoy the show; it's a lot of fun and I look forward to new episodes every week (I've told my wife that "Wednesday is my Space Show night!"). I only started watching it in late December or early January and was super annoyed to discover it was still going on because that meant I had to wait for new episodes instead of being able to watch a new one each night! So all of this is coming from a place of love. (I have not read the books and can't decide whether I want to - definitely not until the show is done, though.)
I totally get that it's a show, suspension of disbelief, limited budget, all that. The thing about gravity is that it's so inconsistent. Even in a single scene! You'll have a character clanking around in their mag boots in their perfectly-draping outfit to go sit on a chair, and then the water spill floats around the room in bubbles! Or they're stirring a cup of coffee with no lid while the ship is parked!
I've read my share of hard and hard-ish sci fi and I get the "ship under thrust" idea, and spin, and all that. It had occurred to me to think about the times of travel at 1g that rhamphorynchus mentioned but I don't have enough sense of the relative distances to run that math in my head (and I may have been in the shower or something).
I'm fine with magboots, flip-and-burn, spin, all that stuff - I just feel like it's applied so inconsistently. Effectively, it's like they showed magboots early in season one and then treat it as if everywhere has magical artificial gravity except when they want to show something cool (like a ship flipping, or water blobs) or drive a plot point. Which, two things: first, fine! It's a show and you can do that! It doesn't diminish my enjoyment, honestly - but there are definitely a fair number of times that it does actually pull me out of the moment and make me go "it wouldn't work like that!"
Second: we've got handwavium that gives us the Epstein drive and the magic autodoc that heals whatever's wrong with you if you stick your arm in the cuff for long enough - surely a little handwavium early on about "wear these magboots just in case the artificial gravity generators have an issue" would have been easy to throw in early on.
Again, I really dig the show and this is more affectionate ribbing than a genuine gripe. Think of it in the same kind of "are you kidding?" laugh as the name "protomolecule." (It's a terrifying and mysterious alien technology! How many times can we make the actors crack up saying its name?)
posted by nickmark at 5:23 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
BTW, the James SA Corey twitter account is Ty Franck's. Daniel Abraham has his own account.
posted by rikschell at 5:30 PM on February 3, 2021
posted by rikschell at 5:30 PM on February 3, 2021
I can't think of a single time where I've yelled 'it doesn't work like that!' at the Expanse when it comes to gravity - which is extremely rare in space TV/film for me.
I just started the books not too long ago (currently on the second - no spoilers please!) and this has been one of the things I've liked best. That and the realistic depiction of time - taking months to get around, even at constant 0.5-1 G thrust, really gives that feeling of just how vast space is.
I watched the first season a couple of years ago, but haven't had time to get to the rest - it's definitely on my watch list though.
posted by photo guy at 5:53 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I just started the books not too long ago (currently on the second - no spoilers please!) and this has been one of the things I've liked best. That and the realistic depiction of time - taking months to get around, even at constant 0.5-1 G thrust, really gives that feeling of just how vast space is.
I watched the first season a couple of years ago, but haven't had time to get to the rest - it's definitely on my watch list though.
posted by photo guy at 5:53 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm usually one to defend the show but
The thing about gravity is that it's so inconsistent.
Yup. And granted consistency would cost money, but still.
the name "protomolecule."
I can't remember whether this ever hit the show, but in the books it's called the protomolecule because it was being worked on by Protogen. Someone even remarks that the assholes branded the thing.
At least it's not protoculture?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:00 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
The thing about gravity is that it's so inconsistent.
Yup. And granted consistency would cost money, but still.
the name "protomolecule."
I can't remember whether this ever hit the show, but in the books it's called the protomolecule because it was being worked on by Protogen. Someone even remarks that the assholes branded the thing.
At least it's not protoculture?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:00 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Namang na gonya take my ship
Mi gonya race it til I’m gush
Namang na gonya beat my ship
I’m gonya bek da fash da lush
Oooh I’m a killing machine
I’m ta ge kowlting
Lik wa Epstein drive
All that thrust don’t take nating"
-Highway Star. Belter version by Cory Todd.
Shohreh Aghdashloo as Chrisjen Avasarala is absolutely great in this show. Does the character match the books?
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on February 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Mi gonya race it til I’m gush
Namang na gonya beat my ship
I’m gonya bek da fash da lush
Oooh I’m a killing machine
I’m ta ge kowlting
Lik wa Epstein drive
All that thrust don’t take nating"
-Highway Star. Belter version by Cory Todd.
Shohreh Aghdashloo as Chrisjen Avasarala is absolutely great in this show. Does the character match the books?
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on February 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
The way she plays it matches, but Shohreh Aghdashloo is much more physically imposing than Chrisjen Avasarala is in the books. In the books she is smaller, frailer, appears older. Which makes her that much more fun to read, because she is foul mouthed and brutal and brilliant and hilarious (and occasionally heartbreaking).
That said, I adore Shohreh Aghdashloo, and wouldn't want any other actress to play the part.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:53 PM on February 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
That said, I adore Shohreh Aghdashloo, and wouldn't want any other actress to play the part.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:53 PM on February 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Shohreh Aghdashloo as Chrisjen Avasarala is absolutely great in this show. Does the character match the books?
I'm only partway through the 2nd book but fully caught up on the series. Yes, Avasarala is a foul-mouthed hardass. Though she doesn't appear in the 1st book at all so really I've only seen a quarter of one book of her in it. What I've seen so far it matches.
posted by Phantomx at 6:54 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm only partway through the 2nd book but fully caught up on the series. Yes, Avasarala is a foul-mouthed hardass. Though she doesn't appear in the 1st book at all so really I've only seen a quarter of one book of her in it. What I've seen so far it matches.
posted by Phantomx at 6:54 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'd happily watch Shohreh Aghdashloo read a phone book. (Also love the books and the series)
posted by drewbage1847 at 6:55 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 6:55 PM on February 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
One scene I remember from the books was when a non-Earth person visited Earth for the first time and went outside. No suit, no roof, no walls, everything the opposite of safety, and looking up at the sky. And they have a panic attack, of course you would. After I read that I went outside and looked up at the clouds, imagining this was the first time I'd seen such a thing, and I had a little sense of vertigo at such a mundane thing.
It felt good. That's good writing.
posted by adept256 at 7:30 PM on February 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
It felt good. That's good writing.
posted by adept256 at 7:30 PM on February 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Speaking of cast, I like how diverse the show is. Not perfect, of course, but you get amazing actors. (Eg a stronger role for the formidable Cara Gee, who—crossover—also had an appearance on Letterkenny, or the great work of Jean Yoon in S1, a main character in Kim’s Convenience.)
Plus it also helps to highlight the narrative that the divisions come from Earth / Mars / Belt, i.e. nominally post race but obviously still with problems and divisions, because of human nature.
posted by ec2y at 7:48 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Plus it also helps to highlight the narrative that the divisions come from Earth / Mars / Belt, i.e. nominally post race but obviously still with problems and divisions, because of human nature.
posted by ec2y at 7:48 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I had that sense of good script writing when Bobbie Draper went to earth, the protocol from Mars to Earth environment. Her desire to see the ocean was multi-layered. In the show it took time for the characters to stand out as the storyline of solar politics and tech is gripping. The episode with Epstein was good background. The concept of humans finally getting out there is realistic in as that "human" society have divisions based on resources; factor in the distance and it's like 1821 maritime, not really Hornblower goes to IO but none the less comparable. And over all how the concept of 'human' has changed physiologically.
"With all due respect, Madame, where are you going with this?”
“Wherever I goddamn like!”
posted by clavdivs at 8:03 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
"With all due respect, Madame, where are you going with this?”
“Wherever I goddamn like!”
posted by clavdivs at 8:03 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
"surely a little handwavium early on about "wear these magboots just in case the artificial gravity generators have an issue" would have been easy to throw in early on."
For me the lack of artificial gravity is such a fundamental part of what makes The Expanse what it is that I can't imagine it any other way. It's not just the big things -- from the very different physical presences of the ships up to why would humans even be confined to one solar system? -- or the fun little effects for things like coriolis forces, but so many of the character beats come from humans not having that technology. Naomi just flipping her engineer shit when Eros dodges the Nauvoo. Amos and Prax starting to bond when a bunch of stuff breaks loose during high-g maneuvers. With non-skinny Belters even the racism would have to change.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 9:02 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
For me the lack of artificial gravity is such a fundamental part of what makes The Expanse what it is that I can't imagine it any other way. It's not just the big things -- from the very different physical presences of the ships up to why would humans even be confined to one solar system? -- or the fun little effects for things like coriolis forces, but so many of the character beats come from humans not having that technology. Naomi just flipping her engineer shit when Eros dodges the Nauvoo. Amos and Prax starting to bond when a bunch of stuff breaks loose during high-g maneuvers. With non-skinny Belters even the racism would have to change.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 9:02 PM on February 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
The James SA Corey twitter account is pretty firm on decompression and vacuum exposure was written to be consistent to the best understanding of the physiology that we have available.
I'm not talking about how long you'd survive in a vacuum.
Take a ballon, fill it up with air, then prick it. Does the air inside just kinda "hang out" for like 30 seconds, then somewhat mosey out into the lower pressure environment? No, it immediately rushes out, tearing the ballon apart in the process.
Or, what happens when a passenger airplane loses a window? That's not even at vacuum, but when that happens everything (and everybody) not strapped down get pushed out that window, immediately. Sometimes, like the Southwest flight from a few year ago, you get wedged into window and don't actually get all the way out. Although that person died of a heart attack.
Anyway, in the The Expanse, doors open and....nothing. You might say "well, perhaps they invented ultra quiet airlock recyclers that only make shitloads of noise when putting air in (like in Ep 09 this season), but make zero noise when taking it out (which happened twice in Ep 10)", well, at the end of Ep 10, it was real clear a character opened a door into vacuum like they were opening a door to their outside porch, and no air rushed out either.
posted by sideshow at 9:22 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm not talking about how long you'd survive in a vacuum.
Take a ballon, fill it up with air, then prick it. Does the air inside just kinda "hang out" for like 30 seconds, then somewhat mosey out into the lower pressure environment? No, it immediately rushes out, tearing the ballon apart in the process.
Or, what happens when a passenger airplane loses a window? That's not even at vacuum, but when that happens everything (and everybody) not strapped down get pushed out that window, immediately. Sometimes, like the Southwest flight from a few year ago, you get wedged into window and don't actually get all the way out. Although that person died of a heart attack.
Anyway, in the The Expanse, doors open and....nothing. You might say "well, perhaps they invented ultra quiet airlock recyclers that only make shitloads of noise when putting air in (like in Ep 09 this season), but make zero noise when taking it out (which happened twice in Ep 10)", well, at the end of Ep 10, it was real clear a character opened a door into vacuum like they were opening a door to their outside porch, and no air rushed out either.
posted by sideshow at 9:22 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
or the great work of Jean Yoon in S1, a main character in Kim’s Convenience
About half the principal cast of Kim's have had small roles on The Expanse - Simu Liu in season three as a Martian marine, Sugith "Mr. Mehta" Varughese as the recent new President of someplace, Mrs. Mehta appeared in an earlier episode, et cetera. I occasionally tweet at the Expanse official account telling them they need to finish the complete set in season six.
posted by mightygodking at 10:22 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
About half the principal cast of Kim's have had small roles on The Expanse - Simu Liu in season three as a Martian marine, Sugith "Mr. Mehta" Varughese as the recent new President of someplace, Mrs. Mehta appeared in an earlier episode, et cetera. I occasionally tweet at the Expanse official account telling them they need to finish the complete set in season six.
posted by mightygodking at 10:22 PM on February 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am a huge fan of the Expanse, and I think their technical accuracy is shockingly high based on the available science and engineering knowledge we have. For example, if you watch a lot of the Roci meal scenes, you can see that space cooking requires one to use the best brownie pan conceivable.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:46 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 11:46 PM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Or, what happens when a passenger airplane loses a window?
This demonstrates the venturi effect - when a large volume of gas flows to a lower pressure through a small hole, the velocity of the gas escaping will increase. In a party balloon that deflates (e.g flies round the room) the volume of the ballon also shrinks, adding additional pressure to the gas escaping.
Think a garden hose with low water pressure, then you put your thumb over the end so only a little can come out - what water can escape speeds up dramatically in comparison to when there's a larger opening.
A popped ballon actually structurally collapses very rapidly due to the tension on the rubber, so that's a different thing; most of the air doesn't escape but rather just isn't in a ballon any more.
In most of the airlocks in the Expanse, the door opens quickly, and the hole is large relative to the volume of the airlock, which remains fixed. So the amount of air leaving will be large, and most air will be gone in a couple of seconds leading to a rapid drop in pressure inside, but the velocity of the escape will be low. Thus the air will take the path of least resistance, and mostly flow around the people rather than slam them hard out the airlock. They will feel a short breeze as the air leaves past them - and they realise what is happening, then start to asphyxiate as they drift relatively slowly out the airlock - which will then take another 20-30 seconds ish. Some characters panic once when they realise what is happening, others are expecting it (the uhh, one at the end of season 4, trying to avoid spoilers)
In the season 5 episode 10 one, he was clearly mag booted to the deck facing the airlock camera, which is why he didn't move at all until kicked.
I'm there with an outside airlock being too easy to open though, no way ship designers wouldn't require a more definitive step than an accidental touch screen press!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:21 AM on February 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
Sugith "Mr. Mehta" Varughese as the recent new President of someplace,
OMG Mr Metha! That’s who that was! Time for some more IMDB time.
posted by ec2y at 3:03 AM on February 4, 2021
OMG Mr Metha! That’s who that was! Time for some more IMDB time.
posted by ec2y at 3:03 AM on February 4, 2021
Also for the scene in S5E10 I’m pretty sure the air lock is depressurized before opening the door, which should be routine under normal operation to conserve gas.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:05 AM on February 4, 2021
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:05 AM on February 4, 2021
I mean, I'd expect a bit more of a cloud to form and dissipate as an airlock under pressure is opened to vacuum, but ugh that would be a lot of effects work. As it was, Serge was pleading his innocence to Marco right up until Marco opened the airlock and kicked him out. There was a bit of a pssh that might've been air escaping, might've been the airlock cycling. There was a throwaway line from Cyn earlier this season that they were adjusting the humidity from Martian standards because it's too damp, so maybe belters just adapted to really low humidity levels that wouldn't form a cloud as the pressure drops.
On the other other hand, I don't think the show has ever covered what gas fraction they're breathing on the ships. 1 bar including nitrogen would complicate a lot of things, but a lower pressure pure oxygen environment is exciting as well. I just sort of assume they have really great pumps (or O2 is a byproduct of the Epstein drive), because MCRN combat ships are depressurizing all the time.
(I mean, all of this skips right past just how unlikely those sorts of doors could possibly make a gas-safe seal against _any_ pressure in a working environment. You know why ISS spacewalks take as long as they do? Because they spend dang near an hour on either side of opening and closing the hatch making sure it didn't trap even the smallest bit of dust, forming a leak. Again, maybe O2 is a byproduct so pissing away atmosphere is no big deal...)
The thing that sort of makes my suspension of disbelief get a bit cranky is all the times we see ships under thrust in formation with their docking bridges connected. C'mon, you're telling me they can all match throttle and maneuvering well enough to not rip the bridges out of their mounts?
posted by Kyol at 6:26 AM on February 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
On the other other hand, I don't think the show has ever covered what gas fraction they're breathing on the ships. 1 bar including nitrogen would complicate a lot of things, but a lower pressure pure oxygen environment is exciting as well. I just sort of assume they have really great pumps (or O2 is a byproduct of the Epstein drive), because MCRN combat ships are depressurizing all the time.
(I mean, all of this skips right past just how unlikely those sorts of doors could possibly make a gas-safe seal against _any_ pressure in a working environment. You know why ISS spacewalks take as long as they do? Because they spend dang near an hour on either side of opening and closing the hatch making sure it didn't trap even the smallest bit of dust, forming a leak. Again, maybe O2 is a byproduct so pissing away atmosphere is no big deal...)
The thing that sort of makes my suspension of disbelief get a bit cranky is all the times we see ships under thrust in formation with their docking bridges connected. C'mon, you're telling me they can all match throttle and maneuvering well enough to not rip the bridges out of their mounts?
posted by Kyol at 6:26 AM on February 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Handwavium artificial gravity would undermine one of the central sources of tension in the series: the physical, political, and economic differences between the Belters and the Inners. Gravity, along with water and air (and probably something else I'm not thinking of), is one of the things that Belters need that they don't have enough of. If the Belters had artificial gravity, their health would be vastly improved and because their bodies would be more like Inners in structure and strength, they would be capable of living on a planet if they chose to. They would be able to have children with the ease and safety of the Inners. Some of their food supply problems might be solved. All of that would make it much more difficult for Inners to subjugate the Belters. It would be a fundamentally different story. (Though probably still good, as I think of it, just with different tension. Humans putting the boot to the neck of other humans is something we're good at, so the Inners would find a way.)
In my mind, the physicality of the Belters is one of the insurmountable problems faced by the series as opposed to the books. In the books, most Belters are physically very distinct from Inners-- thinner, taller, with more fragile bones and much more adapted to low gravity than living under thrust. That's just not doable with actors on a planet, so you never get such a profound sense of how each faction views the other as alien.
posted by ruddlehead at 6:45 AM on February 4, 2021 [7 favorites]
In my mind, the physicality of the Belters is one of the insurmountable problems faced by the series as opposed to the books. In the books, most Belters are physically very distinct from Inners-- thinner, taller, with more fragile bones and much more adapted to low gravity than living under thrust. That's just not doable with actors on a planet, so you never get such a profound sense of how each faction views the other as alien.
posted by ruddlehead at 6:45 AM on February 4, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don't think the show has ever covered what gas fraction they're breathing on the ships.
Naomi had the bends this season, so definitely not 100% O2 at least. Oh and they don't have squeaky voices, so it's not heliox (though helium would probably be abundant on fusion torch ships).
O2 is a byproduct of the Epstein drive
IIRC they carry water as fuel; H2 to fuse, and the rest for reaction mass, so yeah, plenty of oxygen available.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:51 AM on February 4, 2021
Naomi had the bends this season, so definitely not 100% O2 at least. Oh and they don't have squeaky voices, so it's not heliox (though helium would probably be abundant on fusion torch ships).
O2 is a byproduct of the Epstein drive
IIRC they carry water as fuel; H2 to fuse, and the rest for reaction mass, so yeah, plenty of oxygen available.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:51 AM on February 4, 2021
I love The Expanse too, both in book and TV form. My main quibble is that the main crew has a fantasy-style plot armor with a Forrest-Gump/Zelig ability to be there whenever there's a mankind-defining event. I find that this detracts from the general realism, though it's perhaps more a problem for the books than for the show.
Still, I'm marvelling at the ability of modern TV to create high quality adaptations of ambitious books. TV shows like this really bring movie quality to television without the narrative constraints of a 2-hour format. I'm starting to wonder whether the traditional movie is not on the "losing" side here, like stage theatre "lost" to movies and painting "lost" to photography. By "losing", I mean that those older art forms are still thriving, but they had to reinvent themselves to survive, and they no longer have the cultural influence they once had. Adapting complex stories to the screen seems better served now by TV than by regular movies. See also the The Queen's Gambit and My brilliant friend as other examples where a longform TV series is able to do justice to the original narratives in a way that a regular movie would not.
posted by elgilito at 7:23 AM on February 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Still, I'm marvelling at the ability of modern TV to create high quality adaptations of ambitious books. TV shows like this really bring movie quality to television without the narrative constraints of a 2-hour format. I'm starting to wonder whether the traditional movie is not on the "losing" side here, like stage theatre "lost" to movies and painting "lost" to photography. By "losing", I mean that those older art forms are still thriving, but they had to reinvent themselves to survive, and they no longer have the cultural influence they once had. Adapting complex stories to the screen seems better served now by TV than by regular movies. See also the The Queen's Gambit and My brilliant friend as other examples where a longform TV series is able to do justice to the original narratives in a way that a regular movie would not.
posted by elgilito at 7:23 AM on February 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't recall them explaining mag boots on the show, other than by showing (and hearing) their use. I kinda like it when stuff like this is not explained to the audience, but still believable.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 7:26 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by inpHilltr8r at 7:26 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm n-thing the recommendation that you give the show a try even if you didn't like the books.
I really like Daniel Abraham's fantasy, but having been burned by his pseudonymous urban fantasy (which I think is... less good) I read a free sample of Leviathan Wakes, found it underwhelming, and never picked the series up. But I think the TV series is fantastic! My gripe was with the writing style, not the content, and I think the writers have really taken full advantage of the opportunity to streamline and revise the story for TV.
I did find the beginning of the first season to be slow going, and didn't really pay full attention the first time I watched it (I had it on in the background while I was sewing). Then the space politics ramped up and it got really good (I love space politics!), and I realised that I didn't have a good enough idea of what was going on, so I rewatched the whole first season before starting the second.
I can report that the issues I had the first time around didn't bother me during the rewatch. Some of the episodes that were hard to get into were much more interesting and compelling once I actually knew who the characters were -- there's a bottle episode early on which is just perplexing when you have no emotional connection to the main cast and can only barely tell them apart, but when you come back to it later it's perfectly watchable.
I know that sounds like a lot of caveats for a recommendation, but I think that the series is well worth the initial effort. It's probably my favourite recent TV series, and it has set a high bar for other live action SF.
posted by confluency at 8:55 AM on February 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I really like Daniel Abraham's fantasy, but having been burned by his pseudonymous urban fantasy (which I think is... less good) I read a free sample of Leviathan Wakes, found it underwhelming, and never picked the series up. But I think the TV series is fantastic! My gripe was with the writing style, not the content, and I think the writers have really taken full advantage of the opportunity to streamline and revise the story for TV.
I did find the beginning of the first season to be slow going, and didn't really pay full attention the first time I watched it (I had it on in the background while I was sewing). Then the space politics ramped up and it got really good (I love space politics!), and I realised that I didn't have a good enough idea of what was going on, so I rewatched the whole first season before starting the second.
I can report that the issues I had the first time around didn't bother me during the rewatch. Some of the episodes that were hard to get into were much more interesting and compelling once I actually knew who the characters were -- there's a bottle episode early on which is just perplexing when you have no emotional connection to the main cast and can only barely tell them apart, but when you come back to it later it's perfectly watchable.
I know that sounds like a lot of caveats for a recommendation, but I think that the series is well worth the initial effort. It's probably my favourite recent TV series, and it has set a high bar for other live action SF.
posted by confluency at 8:55 AM on February 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't recall them explaining mag boots on the show
I think there was a bit where someone explained their use to someone going to space for the first time (Avasarala, maybe?).
posted by nickmark at 9:48 AM on February 4, 2021
I think there was a bit where someone explained their use to someone going to space for the first time (Avasarala, maybe?).
posted by nickmark at 9:48 AM on February 4, 2021
C'mon, you're telling me they can all match throttle and maneuvering well enough to not rip the bridges out of their mounts?
In the books and the show, there's just a huuuuge amount of very smart but invisible AI lurking underneath things. Tachi, at the time, was smart enough to figure out that Naomi is the engineer just from observing her.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:12 AM on February 4, 2021
In the books and the show, there's just a huuuuge amount of very smart but invisible AI lurking underneath things. Tachi, at the time, was smart enough to figure out that Naomi is the engineer just from observing her.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:12 AM on February 4, 2021
Well there has to be some form of artificial gravity (haven't read the books) because if the gravity created on space stations is by spinning alone, it would open up all kinds of other issues. Spinning means there would be different levels of gravity at different parts of the station, it also means people living in centrifuge and then having to adapt to a ship, it also means getting off the ship and entering the spin would be a process. In space, they talk about turning off the drive puts them back into zero G, but with the drive on at all, there is apparently significant G, even when not "burning", but that doesn't quite make sense in terms of how the ship is configured-- if the only source of gravity was the thrust the drive makes, everything would be oriented in that direction only.
My personal explanation (handwavium) is that they have some form of imperfect but useful gravity enhancer which helps even everything out ;)
posted by chaz at 11:13 AM on February 4, 2021
My personal explanation (handwavium) is that they have some form of imperfect but useful gravity enhancer which helps even everything out ;)
posted by chaz at 11:13 AM on February 4, 2021
I think there was a bit where someone explained their use to someone going to space for the first time (Avasarala, maybe?).
That was Amos who explained mag boots to Avasarala and in the process attracted some interest.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:49 AM on February 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
That was Amos who explained mag boots to Avasarala and in the process attracted some interest.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:49 AM on February 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
Since we've had a lot of folks say how much they like the show better than the books, I'll chime in with an apparently contrary opinion that they're both quite good. Abraham's fantasy is probably "better" in terms of lit'rary quality since the Expanse stuff is pretty self consciously written in blockbustery style but as space opera goes it's tops.
Show: v good. Books: v good. I'm quite interested to see what Abraham next. Fantasy doorstoppers to go with the space opera maybe?
posted by Justinian at 11:59 AM on February 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Show: v good. Books: v good. I'm quite interested to see what Abraham next. Fantasy doorstoppers to go with the space opera maybe?
posted by Justinian at 11:59 AM on February 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
The quality of the writing improves in the later books IMO, but there is still some inconsistency. Better than most sci-fi though and the books spend a good amount of time pondering about why humans are the way they are, and what value there is in exporting our stupid shit elsewhere.
Also if you're frustrated with some of the details of gravity etc. in the show, the books spend *plenty* of time explaining when characters are on the float, in 1g, low g, acceleration, etc. I wouldn't say it's "hard" SF (which I find kind dull usually - all explain-y, no plott-y) but they do try to make things feel realistic and logical. Even stuff as simple as the way ships accelerate for half a trip, then turn around and decelerate for the second half is something I hadn't seen mentioned in most of the classic SF I've read.
posted by freecellwizard at 12:21 PM on February 4, 2021
Also if you're frustrated with some of the details of gravity etc. in the show, the books spend *plenty* of time explaining when characters are on the float, in 1g, low g, acceleration, etc. I wouldn't say it's "hard" SF (which I find kind dull usually - all explain-y, no plott-y) but they do try to make things feel realistic and logical. Even stuff as simple as the way ships accelerate for half a trip, then turn around and decelerate for the second half is something I hadn't seen mentioned in most of the classic SF I've read.
posted by freecellwizard at 12:21 PM on February 4, 2021
And if you haven't looked up how much a brachistochrone trajectory changes travel times across the solar system, this transfer calculator toy is kinda neat - months of freefall transits turn into days of 1g accelerations. Jupiter is a week away! Neptune is just over 2 weeks!
Scott Manley has a video about the trajectories and times involved as well.
posted by Kyol at 12:26 PM on February 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
Scott Manley has a video about the trajectories and times involved as well.
posted by Kyol at 12:26 PM on February 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
I confess, I was a Star Trek junkie, because I could never watch it all, in sequence raising kids. Then over the last 2-3 years, watched it all, all, except for one with Doc McCoy and the Nazis. So, The Expanse was hard to start, and I only did because I got Amazon Prime. Shohreh Aghdashloo, was in a Kelvin Timeline Star Trek film, offering Chris Pine / Kirk, a Vice Admiralty.
I love this series, it is so timely, and an amazing projection of what we would do in space if given the chance to do it. I am dismayed to hear about mining corps trying to get the jump on moon contracts, and the distinct, beauty of Mars. But hey. I love this series, and I don't pick things apart. I will get the books, and try to get my grandson to read them, because he, to date, has not enjoyed reading for reading's sake. I love this series, and it is what I will do tonight. I am worried I already saw the finale, but didn't know it. Some of my favorite lines in all of entertainment, are uttered by Amos. "How 'bout right now? I'm free right now?" "I am that guy."
posted by Oyéah at 5:14 PM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
I love this series, it is so timely, and an amazing projection of what we would do in space if given the chance to do it. I am dismayed to hear about mining corps trying to get the jump on moon contracts, and the distinct, beauty of Mars. But hey. I love this series, and I don't pick things apart. I will get the books, and try to get my grandson to read them, because he, to date, has not enjoyed reading for reading's sake. I love this series, and it is what I will do tonight. I am worried I already saw the finale, but didn't know it. Some of my favorite lines in all of entertainment, are uttered by Amos. "How 'bout right now? I'm free right now?" "I am that guy."
posted by Oyéah at 5:14 PM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
> I wish wish wish there would be a further exploration of belter culture on a companion show.
We Can't All Be 'Beltalowda': "Bull says to Fred, 'You think that just because somebody's the underdog, that means they're the good guy.' Really that is philosophically what we are exploring with the Belters."
also btw...
Winnipesaukee:
the dagger & coin series and long price quartet were both pretty good! (am intrigued by this though: "[Leviathan Wakes is] definitely nowhere near as good as say, McAuley's The Quiet War, to name a recent and thematically-similar book." ;)
Show: v good. Books: v good.
i guess the scriptwriters helped: "Although not originally interested in the pilot script, he picked it up after seeing that it was written by Mark Fergus and Hawk Ostby, known for writing the film Children of Men."
posted by kliuless at 11:59 PM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
We Can't All Be 'Beltalowda': "Bull says to Fred, 'You think that just because somebody's the underdog, that means they're the good guy.' Really that is philosophically what we are exploring with the Belters."
also btw...
Winnipesaukee:
Even if we do get everything up and running, who knows if this old boat has enough thrust to lift off with every damn person on the island inside?> Abraham's fantasy is probably "better" in terms of lit'rary quality since the Expanse stuff is pretty self consciously written in blockbustery style but as space opera goes it's tops.
We’re just growing the tribe.
What?
Amos says that humans are tribal, and that when things get bad, the tribe shrinks.
That’s how it works. You should listen to him.
I did. And he’s right. But he’s also wrong. On the road, he said we were a tribe of two. But if we hadn’t teamed up with you guys, we’d be dead now. We were stronger ’cause our tribe grew.
I’m still not sure what your collection of scullery maids and butlers is adding to the team.
Does it matter? Maybe just being people who need help is enough. If we decided to include everyone in our tribe without demanding that they prove we need them, maybe people wouldn’t have thrown rocks at us in the first place.
the dagger & coin series and long price quartet were both pretty good! (am intrigued by this though: "[Leviathan Wakes is] definitely nowhere near as good as say, McAuley's The Quiet War, to name a recent and thematically-similar book." ;)
Show: v good. Books: v good.
i guess the scriptwriters helped: "Although not originally interested in the pilot script, he picked it up after seeing that it was written by Mark Fergus and Hawk Ostby, known for writing the film Children of Men."
posted by kliuless at 11:59 PM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's tough to choose, but I think this is my favourite line of the series.
Fred: What'd you do?
Holden: There was a button, I pushed it.
Fred (exasperated): Jesus Christ, that's really how you go through life isn't it.
As a book reader, it's been brilliant to watch the series. I know the overall beats of what's coming, but they've made a lot of changes to the exact order of things, Cara Gee's Drummer has replaced and smooshed several minor characters together into an awesome character, others have had their role expanded and changed substantially. I was absolutely stunned by a recent death, for example. It might be heresy, but I think the series is better than the books, simply because they've had the opportunity to shuffle the timeline, expand some things such as character development, and drop rather lengthy diversions that didn't add anything to the plot. They even made Ilus watchable!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:25 AM on February 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
Fred: What'd you do?
Holden: There was a button, I pushed it.
Fred (exasperated): Jesus Christ, that's really how you go through life isn't it.
As a book reader, it's been brilliant to watch the series. I know the overall beats of what's coming, but they've made a lot of changes to the exact order of things, Cara Gee's Drummer has replaced and smooshed several minor characters together into an awesome character, others have had their role expanded and changed substantially. I was absolutely stunned by a recent death, for example. It might be heresy, but I think the series is better than the books, simply because they've had the opportunity to shuffle the timeline, expand some things such as character development, and drop rather lengthy diversions that didn't add anything to the plot. They even made Ilus watchable!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:25 AM on February 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
Is this where we share favorite lines?
As far as pulp goes, I don’t think it gets better than the end of season 3.
I think changing Amos to fit Wes Chatham was worth it just for the sclera acting of the eye movements when Prax calls him “best friend in the whole world”.
——
Also, having now watched S5E10, television is amazing for allowing us to see the shift from the blankness of regular Amos to the charismatic glee of having pulled one over on the Captain. It’s so much harder to pull that off via written word.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:32 AM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
As far as pulp goes, I don’t think it gets better than the end of season 3.
I think changing Amos to fit Wes Chatham was worth it just for the sclera acting of the eye movements when Prax calls him “best friend in the whole world”.
——
Also, having now watched S5E10, television is amazing for allowing us to see the shift from the blankness of regular Amos to the charismatic glee of having pulled one over on the Captain. It’s so much harder to pull that off via written word.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:32 AM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is this where we share favorite lines?
I get why they stripped out the subplot in Caliban's War where Protogen etc are fighting back by trying to smear Prax, but I'm still a little annoyed that we never got the exchange that ends with Amos saying "Oh, fuck no! I'd have thrown you out an airlock!" to Prax.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:14 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
I get why they stripped out the subplot in Caliban's War where Protogen etc are fighting back by trying to smear Prax, but I'm still a little annoyed that we never got the exchange that ends with Amos saying "Oh, fuck no! I'd have thrown you out an airlock!" to Prax.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:14 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
"The machine keeps switching to hospice mode."
- Alex to Holden just after he'd put him in the auto-doc to cure his radiation burns.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:19 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
- Alex to Holden just after he'd put him in the auto-doc to cure his radiation burns.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:19 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
This seems a good place to ask: what's out there to read/watch for leaning Lang Belta? I'd like to learn more.
posted by medusa at 7:54 AM on February 6, 2021
posted by medusa at 7:54 AM on February 6, 2021
There’s a Lang belta Reddit that’s surprisingly active.
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:49 PM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:49 PM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
“We stole a church, bolted some guns to it, and call it a warship. To protect the belt? No. It’s because we don’t want to be left out of this party"
-Drummer.
posted by clavdivs at 8:19 PM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
-Drummer.
posted by clavdivs at 8:19 PM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
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Cigarettes in space? C'mon.
The romance is super-cringe.
posted by adept256 at 9:57 AM on February 3, 2021 [2 favorites]