Touching Fish
February 4, 2021 6:43 AM   Subscribe

Jane Li on why Chinese youngsters, subjected to “996 hours” (9am to 9pm for six days a week), are embracing a philosophy of slacking off or “touching fish”, a Chinese phrase synonymous with lazing around at work (Quartz)

There is some disagreement about whether “touching fish” should actually be translated as “trying to catch fish by hand in the water" but I’ve run with “touching fish” since that’s what’s used in the article.
posted by adrianhon (32 comments total) 16 users marked this as a favorite
 
Going to work at 10 and then taking a 3 hour lunch at 11:30 is some serious slacking off! Good for them as long as they can keep their job.

There's always someone willing to work longer and harder which is why we need policies in place to govern working conditions. I can only imagine how much worse the situation would be in China where there are 30 times the people competing for things compared to me in Canada.

I hope they are able to find a solution to this. I don't know if that's through legislation or unions or something else but I can't see good things coming out of so many people being shut out of even the hope of a better life.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:19 AM on February 4, 2021 [5 favorites]


In the 80s-90s Americans worried about Asia's productivity, but now they're even beating the US at being unproductive! We need to urgently demand more federal funding to support our own work bullshit. Boss key research has languished since the 90s.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:22 AM on February 4, 2021 [16 favorites]


"Touching fish" is far more poetic than "fucking the dog."
posted by fatbird at 7:29 AM on February 4, 2021 [15 favorites]


I’m curious about the phrase, which according to the article,
... references a Chinese proverb that says “muddy waters make it easy to catch fish,”—that is, that it’s possible to use a crisis or period of chaos for personal benefit.
That makes it sound like you’re using the confusion of work to perform tasks to benefit yourself, but There is some disagreement about whether “touching fish” should actually be translated as “trying to catch fish by hand in the water" makes it sound like it might alternatively have connotations of only going through the motions of a theoretically productive task, although catching fish by hand in certain conditions is possible, e.g. trout tickling and noodling.
posted by zamboni at 7:54 AM on February 4, 2021


Interestingly, in Singapore/Malaysia, and I suspect other places where there are many Hokkien-speaking Southern Chinese, the usual term is jiak zua, or "eating snake".
posted by destrius at 7:55 AM on February 4, 2021 [4 favorites]


As an Original Gen X Slacker I approve of this youth initiative, but all joking aside forcing anyone to work 9am to 9pm for six days a week outside of an emergency (and I mean a "lives are at risk" emergency, not a "if you don't our firm might not meet its quarterly targets" situation) is exploitative bullshit.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:43 AM on February 4, 2021 [54 favorites]


So if these folks are able to slack this much and not get in trouble, my guess is they're stuck in a work environment that values the hours spent at a desk, rather than actual work outputs. Which squares with the deeply toxic 996-hours bullshit espoused by the older generation. If you're working somewhere that wants you to look like you're working 70+ hours a week, I wholeheartedly encourage you to take whatever measures are necessary not to burn out by age 30. I have worked 100-hour weeks, luckily for relatively short periods of time. It destroys your body and your soul more utterly and completely than anything else in this world.

I also encourage clickbait news articles like this one to leave these people the hell alone, and not try to turn it into a story about generational laziness.
posted by Mayor West at 8:45 AM on February 4, 2021 [17 favorites]


the usual term is jiak zua, or "eating snake"

oh is that where it's from? lol though i think in Malaysia the Malay is more commonly understood across the races, and it's definitely in the vernacular as such, but it's just 'mengular*' (to ular) or 'ular' which just means snake.

*or if you're more anglophonic, you'd say ular-ing, lol.

i did crack up at scheduled hot water breaks every hour. can't wait for it to really be a culture-wide thing and everybody gets into the societal phase where we collectively decide 'tea breaks' are a spectacular idea.

that said though, what seems to happen is a holding pattern where people do some work during the day but no one goes home right at 5pm though. SIGH.
posted by cendawanita at 8:45 AM on February 4, 2021


As far as I know, even the golden period of the nineties/2000s was pretty class- and region-limited. When I worked in Shanghai and Beijing, my students were a mixture of people from "the countryside" (small towns, rural areas) and city people, and even at that time the government was dismantling education equity policies in favor of city people who were already richer and better educated. And of course people from the working class who didn't go to college had an even tougher time. There's this great album, Shameful Being Left Alone, that captures some of the feeling of this era - you might enjoy The Ant.

It makes me really sad. When I was in China, things did in the main seem to be getting better and it seemed like Deng had steered the country past a USSR-style collapse. But I didn't understand that even if things appeared better on the surface, the way policies were implemented and the way the state was being dismantled meant that everything would nosedive. I really had a lot of hope for China when I had none for the United States and that was kind of consoling - I could at least think of my Chinese friends having a good future.
posted by Frowner at 8:48 AM on February 4, 2021 [4 favorites]


Mayor West: Is this really a clickbait article about generational laziness? I'm in the generation described and for the most part it seems sympathetic to their conditions.
posted by adrianhon at 8:52 AM on February 4, 2021 [2 favorites]


PRAISE BOB!
posted by symbioid at 9:35 AM on February 4, 2021 [8 favorites]


The intense anxiety felt by younger people, and exacerbated by the pandemic, prompted a wider discussion on a once niche academic concept: neijuan. Translated as “involution,” the anthropological term was first applied to agriculture, and has come to describe conditions in which a society ceases to progress, and instead starts to stagnate internally. Increased output and competition intensify but yield no clear results or innovative, technological breakthroughs.

Neijuan has become a hot topic on the Chinese internet and in media reports this year as a word that “captures urban China’s unhappiness.” Complaints of their work becoming too “involuted”—more competitive with little corresponding rewards—are as likely to be discussed on Weibo by white-collar workers as food delivery drivers.

In an “involuted” society, demand for work is so high that age and experience become liabilities.[...]

Shanghai-based Clarisse Zhang is one of the youngsters who feels they have missed out on a golden period, when simply working hard could mean a ticket to a better life.
This seems both familiar, and depressing. Everyone in the developed world is being captured into a working life of endless bullshit jobs and over-optimization of production. Where economic mobility has become a myth.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:36 AM on February 4, 2021 [9 favorites]


I hope this is a more popular, accessible and sustainable revolution than Hong Kong. China needs reform and if rejecting the systematic destruction, rape, and murder of Uighurs can't be the spark, maybe shitty work hours will.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:39 AM on February 4, 2021


China needs reform and if rejecting the systematic destruction, rape, and murder of Uighurs can't be the spark, maybe shitty work hours will.

I'm by no means an expert on China, but I have to wonder whether the average Chinese citizen is even aware of this. I can't imagine that this is something the Chinese media are free to cover, and it's unclear to me how much reporting from sources outside China will reach people in China.
posted by jzb at 9:46 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


It's so sad that millions of people perished in the service of proletarian revolution only for the ruling Communist Party to create a modern system that brutally exploits the very workers in whose name it governs. I hate everything about this.
posted by wuwei at 9:54 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


I'm by no means an expert on China, but I have to wonder whether the average Chinese citizen is even aware of this.

The fact that the average Chinese citizen just needs to hear about Western Democracy and Capitalism in order to "throw off their chains" and be free is bullshit those of us in the West have feed ourselves, and frankly is just basic racism. It's saying the people of China are too stupid and ignorant to know what's good for themselves, because otherwise they'd turn into us.
posted by sideshow at 9:58 AM on February 4, 2021 [11 favorites]


JCB, Yes, I think there was some slight awareness (albeit skewed heavily) of what went on in Hong Kong, but from what little I know of Chinese media it seems like the populace generally believes the state narrative about dissidents, Falun Gong, etc... and nobody really talks about Uighurs.

Even if they did know though, would it have any more impact there than similar abuses here in the US? I'm not seeing much moral difference between treatment of Uighurs and asylum seekers at the southern border.

People get complacent until something affects them or their neighbors or loved ones. Work conditions affect a huge swath of people.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:05 AM on February 4, 2021 [1 favorite]


PRAISE BOB!

The Slack that can be named is not the true Slack.
posted by otherchaz at 10:08 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


PRAISE BOB!

I was sort of disappointed Bob never sued the hell out of that tech company whose name is what we want, but it's actually about increasing productivity, despite the name!

But I mean, I also get why he didn't, he was too busy Slacking.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:09 AM on February 4, 2021 [5 favorites]


The fact that the average Chinese citizen just needs to hear about Western Democracy and Capitalism in order to "throw off their chains" and be free is bullshit those of us in the West have feed ourselves, and frankly is just basic racism. It's saying the people of China are too stupid and ignorant to know what's good for themselves, because otherwise they'd turn into us.

This so much. People in China like their system for the most part. Why wouldn't they? 850 million people have been lifted out of extreme poverty by the Chinese state over the last 70 years. It's obviously worked for the most part. It's not like western democracy and capitalism are that much better in terms of civil rights. As soon as the decision comes between economic sovereignty and principles, watch "the civilized west" drop those principles like it's 2004 and Snoop Dogg himself just commanded them. A big achievement for the United States is that we finally stopped selling weapons to people who were basically using them to slaughter Houthis by the bucket load.

Western democracy and capitalism is a shitty system, it's just the least shitty one for us so far. Yes it's built large amounts of wealth but its limitations in distributing that wealth fairly have been clearly exposed. It will continue to evolve and hopefully all of us throughout the world can take all the good parts we all figure out, strip out the bad parts, and make everyone's lives better for it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:12 AM on February 4, 2021 [5 favorites]


Look at free speech for instance. I can't imagine not being able to criticize my government without repercussion because it's a fundamental value I've grown up with. I accept the costs that come along with being able to speak out. People in China might not value it that highly because they look to us, look at how that value enumerates social discord which has caused the widespread death and destruction during this pandemic, and come to the conclusion of "it's just not worth it".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:15 AM on February 4, 2021 [2 favorites]


it's actually about increasing productivity, despite the name!

The Conspiracy at work. Suing them is playing their game. "Bob" is too smart - OR TOO STUPID - to fall for that.
posted by Devoidoid at 10:18 AM on February 4, 2021 [1 favorite]


I think the average Chinese citizen being “aware of this” referred to the oppression of Uighurs, not their contentment with their economic system.
posted by hototogisu at 10:19 AM on February 4, 2021 [14 favorites]


1. I think it's easy to conflate "discontent" and "I wish we were like the United States, the US is so great". There's a huge, huge amount of dissent in China - there are all kinds of labor and anti-corruption riots that we don't hear about, especially anything in rural areas and provincial cities. And there's been a lot of upheaval over pollution and local corruption. If everyone were so happy, why would the government crack down all the time, forbid unions, limit internet discourse, etc? If anything, it's a bit weird to collapse what is literally a century and a half of struggle within China for better living conditions into uncritical support for the government. And of course, Tibetans and ethnic minorities and so on are also governed by China; are they all happy?

2. Would you say that the vast majority of Americans are "happy with our system"? What does it mean to be "happy with a system"? Does it mean "things are great, nothing could be better, I sincerely feel this"? Does it mean "I would prefer the current system to a bunch of chaos and upheaval"?

3. Who counts? If coastal, educated people are "happy with the system", is it then racism, etc, to point out that peasants aren't, or that Tibetans aren't, or that migrant laborers aren't? If most Americans are "happy with our system" does that mean that foreigners ought to pay attention to them and minimize problems and dissent in the US?

4. There are a lot of ways to feel. One might easily feel happy that China, a nation with a long history, is emerging from a century and a half of upheaval and is once again a global power; one might feel happy that things aren't as hard as they were in 1985; one might feel proud and excited to see how, eg, Chongqing has developed in the last 20 years. One might love quite a lot about China while also feeling uneasy or negative about local corruption, pollution, etc.

5. The Chinese government at least used to be really ace on the propaganda front. In the late nineties, there were a number of movies and albums released that were about Tibet and/or by Tibetan/marketed-as-Tibetan artists. These were all widely distributed to Han people on the cities and on the coast and they were all pretty bullshit, although the one album I heard was very lovely. The universities, including the one where I taught, also cracked down pretty fast on any loose talk about Tibet from foreigners - you were warned, and if you ran your mouth you were fired and that was the end of your visa. (I knew a couple of people who had been warned and heard of one who had been fired a couple of years back.) The friends I talked to about Tibet - which we only brought up in passing because I didn't want to get anyone in trouble - were all convinced that Tibetan people loved the CCP, that things were great, etc, and that was partly because of baked in ethnic bigotry and partly because of propaganda. It would not surprise me a bit if something similar were true about the Uighurs now.

I guess what I notice in the US is that it is easy for non-Chinese-Americans to treat China as a special case rather than a country. Like, we'd never bring such a flattened analysis to bear on the UK or Canada, but because it's Asia, because it's China, because we don't pick up random bits of history of China the way we usually do with the UK, France, etc and because we've been subjected to decades of anti-communist propaganda, we have a really flat picture of what is after all a huge, diverse place.
posted by Frowner at 10:46 AM on February 4, 2021 [22 favorites]


People are aware of shitty things going on in every political system and will happily let that minority suffer if it means economic hegemony and some vague definition of order is retained. The United States for instance is basically built on genocide, no reparations, still oppressing most of its minorities who haven't been integrated into the colloquial definition of "white".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:47 AM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


Jack Ma was the billionaire who espoused “996”.
Jack Ma is under house arrest/semi disappeared after the Ant Group IPO threatened stability.
Don't be like Jack.
Touch fish instead.
posted by scruss at 12:41 PM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


Its rather dated, but I cannot recommennd the book Chinese Democracy by Andrew J Nathan highly enough. For all that it was written in 1986 it's still something I think a lot of Western people need to read to get a bit of background in Chinese politics and the view of Chinese politics by Chinese.

The TL;DR is that by and large the people of China are satisfied with their system, they've got complaints but the average Chinese citizen doesn't think there's a need to throw out the system and start over.

As for the idea of the genocide of the Uighurs being the catalyst for massive protest and upheval in China it's as preposterous as the idea of the genocide in Yemen being the catylist for a massive upheval and total change of government in America.

The, call it intellectual infrastructure, of a Chinese citizen is built from their education and media, same as it is for American citizens.

And even a Chinese citizen inclined to doubt what they've been told by the various official media sources sees things based on that intellectual infrastructure.

Meaning that the average Chinese might be vaguely aware that the Uighurs are being abused, but will also tend to think of the Uighurs as being ungrateful jerks who have spurned the gifts of civilization and are engaging in terrorism.

Much as the average American may be vaguely, kind of, aware that there's genocide over in Yemen but will also tend to think of everyone in the middle east as ungrateful jerks who have spurned the gifts of civilization and are engaging in terrorism.

My sister in law is ex-Navy and has a big poster in her house that says "The US Navy: A Global Force for Good!"

She's more politically aware than many Americans, she knows that what's happening in Yemen is genocide and that America is actively supporting the genocide. And she doesn't approve of it. She wants it to stop. But she also thinks that America's system is basically OK, that there's no need for massive upheval, and that the Navy is a global force for good despite the Navy, you know, supporting a genocide.

In China the censorship is much more blatant and broad, and the propaganda is more obvious. But I don't think you can really say that lack of information is the problem.

The problem is that people don't have revolutions unless they personally are experiencing truly significant suffering attributable to their government. And the opposite is true in China.

Just as only the fringier bits of the left (hi!) in America go against the narrative of America being a global force for good and our presence and interventions being at least well intentioned if not perfectly executed, so to only the fringier elements of Chinese society are willing to go against the narrative of China as a progressive force uplifting people worlwide and bringing prosperity wherever it goes.

The 996 probem may well result in protest and pressure to change labor conditions, I'd be surprised if it doesn't eventually. But it won't bring the average Chinese to conclude that they need a whole new form of government.

Anymore than the depredations of capitalism convince the average Amrican that they need a whole new form of government, or the brutality of the police convinces a majority of Americans that we need an entirely different approach to law enforcement.

Most Americans are content with things more or less as they are. At most they think America has a few minor flaws that need some minor corrections to fix.

Most Chinese are content with things more or less as they are. At most they think China has a few minor flaws that need some minor corrections to fix.

Don't look for a revolution in China anytime soon. Not as long as Xi can continue raising the standard of living anyway.

In a way the 1989 Tiennaman Square protests worked. Change happened, the protesters were killed, but the government of the PRC saw those protests as indication that things were getting bad enough revolution was an actual possibllity, and they took action to relieve the pressure and make the status quo more tolerable to the average Chinese.

I suspect we'll see the same from 996. There will never be an official anouncement that the PRC is changing policy due to protest or pressure, but things will change.
posted by sotonohito at 12:59 PM on February 4, 2021 [11 favorites]


I love the immense variety of slang terms for bludging at work, it’s a real human universal. Frederick Taylor (who created ‘scientific management’) wrote that it was called ‘soldiering’, from soldiers’ habits of doing absolutely nothing unless they were specifically ordered to do it, one of my favourites, but ‘touching fish’ is now up there too.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 1:24 PM on February 4, 2021 [4 favorites]


To be clear, Jack Ma and his companies were far from the only PRC CEOs and corporations which endorsed and practice 996, and Jack Ma's falling out with Xi Jinping and the Party/govt. has nothing at all do with 996 work culture, and those work practices continue at Alibaba and many other PRC companies

Yeah, essentially what happened was some sort of stock market impropriety regarding his Ant Group holding company that I haven't gotten into yet, but it makes the state of modern 'communist' China even more ironic and funny.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:59 PM on February 4, 2021


Jack Ma's falling out with Xi Jinping and the Party/govt. has nothing at all do with 996 work culture

Oh, I know. But slacking off has its rewards.

Consider my high-school acquaintance and former neighbour, Kevin. Kevin was utterly brilliant in school, went on to amazing things in academia and then became a serious captain of industry, jetsetting out of Hong Kong. Me, I've been moderately busy, done some stuff I'm proud of over the years, but have been known to slack off. I'm generally happy with that, even though I could have maybe worked harder. Kevin, nice bloke though I remember him being, may not know what it means to slack off.

Which of us, then, has had to announce a nearly $600 million deal today with 49 US states as the head of a consultancy company that advised businesses on how to sell more prescription opioid painkillers amid a nationwide overdose crisis?

Hint: not me.

See?
posted by scruss at 3:54 PM on February 4, 2021 [6 favorites]


"All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone,"
Blaise Pascal
posted by thatwhichfalls at 5:02 PM on February 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


I love the immense variety of slang terms for bludging at work, it’s a real human universal.

Goldbricking is one of my favorites.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:57 AM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]


« Older There was a vast demand for Patinkin-related...   |   ".... It is a really nice day." Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments