Mostly Harmful
February 5, 2021 7:23 AM Subscribe
Charlie Hall on the Elite Dangerous players who say they’re being scammed, trapped in space, and forced to work 800 light-years from home (Polygon)
What I thought that space travel in 2020 would be like when I was a kid: day trips to the moon for everybody
What it's actually like: space tourism (just to get to orbit) costs millions of dollars for a single trip; imaginary space travel is ruled by the kind of exploitative capitalism that even the Ferengi would find excessive
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:09 AM on February 5, 2021 [13 favorites]
What it's actually like: space tourism (just to get to orbit) costs millions of dollars for a single trip; imaginary space travel is ruled by the kind of exploitative capitalism that even the Ferengi would find excessive
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:09 AM on February 5, 2021 [13 favorites]
Either the story is leaving out details or Frontier's customer support is terrible. Players being assholes in MMOs is always a thing, but in yon olden days you'd message a game mod and be like "help I got screwed" and they could just teleport you back to somewhere safe. Is that not a thing anymore? Does it just not scale? I feel old.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:23 AM on February 5, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 8:23 AM on February 5, 2021 [6 favorites]
But Wretch729, what about realism in video games??????
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:37 AM on February 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:37 AM on February 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
they could just teleport you back to somewhere safe
As stated multiple times in this article, people always had the option to destroy their starship and respawn.
The only thing that seems scummy is that they were preying on minors. The rest feels like a "monkey trap" situation where the trapped players refuse to just let go.
There are other games out there where the penalties for "death" and respawning are less severe, but it sounds like this isn't one of those games. It also means that the game isn't for me, but it kind of sounds like "working as intended." Much like how I love hearing about EVE Online stories.
posted by explosion at 8:55 AM on February 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
As stated multiple times in this article, people always had the option to destroy their starship and respawn.
The only thing that seems scummy is that they were preying on minors. The rest feels like a "monkey trap" situation where the trapped players refuse to just let go.
There are other games out there where the penalties for "death" and respawning are less severe, but it sounds like this isn't one of those games. It also means that the game isn't for me, but it kind of sounds like "working as intended." Much like how I love hearing about EVE Online stories.
posted by explosion at 8:55 AM on February 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
Now that I think about it I know Elite Dangerous has ship insurance which means that while annoying, this trick wouldn't be that big a deal for an experienced player who could just self destruct and go rebuy their ship with insurance. So it's obviously, as the article said, a way to prey on new players who don't know the game. Which to my mind would make the developer even more incentivized to prevent it, since what faster way to turn off new players?
I don't know the ED community well enough to know whether the developer is to be trusted, but I guess the statement they gave at the end of the Polygon piece makes sense. If they're telling the truth they do want you to just contact customer support, and they say only about 20 players were affected. So in that narrative this is just sensationalizing from Polygon.
For those interested in people not being assholes, the Fuel Rats are actually a really fun group. Charlie Hall linked in this piece to another story he wrote about them some years ago. Honestly playing a game with such punishing "realistic" mechanics that it is so easy and common to run out of gas and be stuck is not my cup of tea, but for those who like it I'm glad a friendly group of pilots got together to go rescue people.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:59 AM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't know the ED community well enough to know whether the developer is to be trusted, but I guess the statement they gave at the end of the Polygon piece makes sense. If they're telling the truth they do want you to just contact customer support, and they say only about 20 players were affected. So in that narrative this is just sensationalizing from Polygon.
For those interested in people not being assholes, the Fuel Rats are actually a really fun group. Charlie Hall linked in this piece to another story he wrote about them some years ago. Honestly playing a game with such punishing "realistic" mechanics that it is so easy and common to run out of gas and be stuck is not my cup of tea, but for those who like it I'm glad a friendly group of pilots got together to go rescue people.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:59 AM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
Bioshock was the equivalent of artificial “Randian” flavor just sprinkled over the game like seasoning.
This here is some fully-flowered “Objectivist” philosophy in videogames coming from the players own mouths. This is exactly the kind of behavior that comes from treating people like that as if they’ve got a coherent philosophy beyond greed is good that needs to be taken seriously.
Sociopathy as philosophy breeds sociopathy as practice.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:02 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
This here is some fully-flowered “Objectivist” philosophy in videogames coming from the players own mouths. This is exactly the kind of behavior that comes from treating people like that as if they’ve got a coherent philosophy beyond greed is good that needs to be taken seriously.
Sociopathy as philosophy breeds sociopathy as practice.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:02 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
To partially quote one of the comments in the Polygon article:
“know that the server itself is named after one of Adolf Hitler’s favorite Panzer divisions”
“a small community comfortable with heinous racial slurs and harassment”
"’It was really just for the giggles,’"
Neonazism is always better when it is all für ze lulz, ja? I also have to wonder why their existence isn’t against community guidelines
posted by ejs at 9:07 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
“know that the server itself is named after one of Adolf Hitler’s favorite Panzer divisions”
“a small community comfortable with heinous racial slurs and harassment”
"’It was really just for the giggles,’"
Neonazism is always better when it is all für ze lulz, ja? I also have to wonder why their existence isn’t against community guidelines
posted by ejs at 9:07 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
God, Elite Dangerous is so weird. My husband was obsessed with it for a minute and basically just left his day job, came home, and rushed through his IRL responsibilities so he had time to go moonlight as a space Uber driver. It didn't seem fun at all! But literally all he was doing was picking up fares and taking them from planet to planet.
I guess if you've ever wanted to try living as just a regular dude making a living in the Star Wars universe, ED with a VR headset is as close as it comes.
posted by potrzebie at 9:21 AM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
I guess if you've ever wanted to try living as just a regular dude making a living in the Star Wars universe, ED with a VR headset is as close as it comes.
posted by potrzebie at 9:21 AM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
"Why don't you play MMOs, frogstar42?"
If I'm trapped in a gulag by Space Nazis in a single-player game, at least I know it's part of a storyline.
posted by frogstar42 at 9:37 AM on February 5, 2021 [11 favorites]
If I'm trapped in a gulag by Space Nazis in a single-player game, at least I know it's part of a storyline.
posted by frogstar42 at 9:37 AM on February 5, 2021 [11 favorites]
Some background for those not versed in ED arcana:
You have the option to destroy your ship at will.
When your ship is destroyed, you have two options: 1) Pay 10%(-ish) of the value of your ship to respawn with an exact copy in the last place you docked or 2) Respawn at the starting port with a starter ship (for free).
If "last place you docked" is 800ly outside the bubble (and your current ship isn't equipped for long-distance travel in the black), option (1) does you little good. If you don't have the funds for it you can't pick option (1) anyway. (When ED players say "don't fly without rebuy" this is what they mean: Don't fly a ship you can't pay to respawn.) So that leaves (2).
Losing the value of your current ship and starting over at the initial port can be anything from no big deal to bad, depending on how much of your in-game assets are tied up in that ship. Lots of things (crafting materials, rank, stored ships, stored modules, faction status, permits, tech unlocks, bank balance) don't get reset. Money is actually one of the easiest things to accumulate in ED.
A player that falls victim to this scam is unlikely to be flying a billion-credit ship. And ED is a game where, starting from zero, it takes maybe two hours of play before you are in a position where you can earn 100M+ an hour with no particular skill or luck.
But, on the gripping hand, new players are unlikely to know any of this (or about resources like the Fuel Rats and Hull Seals). And the game is really bad about teaching you anything beyond the very basics.
posted by sourcequench at 9:48 AM on February 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
You have the option to destroy your ship at will.
When your ship is destroyed, you have two options: 1) Pay 10%(-ish) of the value of your ship to respawn with an exact copy in the last place you docked or 2) Respawn at the starting port with a starter ship (for free).
If "last place you docked" is 800ly outside the bubble (and your current ship isn't equipped for long-distance travel in the black), option (1) does you little good. If you don't have the funds for it you can't pick option (1) anyway. (When ED players say "don't fly without rebuy" this is what they mean: Don't fly a ship you can't pay to respawn.) So that leaves (2).
Losing the value of your current ship and starting over at the initial port can be anything from no big deal to bad, depending on how much of your in-game assets are tied up in that ship. Lots of things (crafting materials, rank, stored ships, stored modules, faction status, permits, tech unlocks, bank balance) don't get reset. Money is actually one of the easiest things to accumulate in ED.
A player that falls victim to this scam is unlikely to be flying a billion-credit ship. And ED is a game where, starting from zero, it takes maybe two hours of play before you are in a position where you can earn 100M+ an hour with no particular skill or luck.
But, on the gripping hand, new players are unlikely to know any of this (or about resources like the Fuel Rats and Hull Seals). And the game is really bad about teaching you anything beyond the very basics.
posted by sourcequench at 9:48 AM on February 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
Does Elite have PvP?
If it does not, this seems especially evil: Exploiting game mechanics to cripple a player when that's not supposed to happen. It it does, it's still reprehensible but seems maybe a bit more in theme? Though even with PvP you're usually not supposed to be screwed over by team members. Either way the people who actually take joy in this seem like they'd be pretty unpleasant and--oh, look at that, racial slurs and Nazi-positive edgelords. This is my surprised face.
I do have to say as someone who never got into the right mindset for online RPGs I am fascinated by these stories self-organizing groups accomplishing things. (In this case the rescuers, not the abductors.)
posted by mark k at 10:21 AM on February 5, 2021
If it does not, this seems especially evil: Exploiting game mechanics to cripple a player when that's not supposed to happen. It it does, it's still reprehensible but seems maybe a bit more in theme? Though even with PvP you're usually not supposed to be screwed over by team members. Either way the people who actually take joy in this seem like they'd be pretty unpleasant and--oh, look at that, racial slurs and Nazi-positive edgelords. This is my surprised face.
I do have to say as someone who never got into the right mindset for online RPGs I am fascinated by these stories self-organizing groups accomplishing things. (In this case the rescuers, not the abductors.)
posted by mark k at 10:21 AM on February 5, 2021
If I understand correctly, it’s the new-ish Fleet Carriers feature that makes this grief possible. Players can be jumped between systems on another player’s carrier (Frontier’s feature that makes a ship act like a starport you can dock at) for a distance that a newbie’s ship couldn’t make on their own.
It sounds like the griefers get the new player to build a ship with mining equipment (very cheap in game) but a very short jump distance, so they can be stranded. Then, (not mentioned in the article) I’m guessing they give ‘em a ride to a system that’s a moderate distance from all others, but with NO ship outfitting. If the new player docks there, that’s their new location if they self destruct. That’s how they can be trapped, with no way out in a single system, no matter what they do. The briefer gives them a ride on a fleet carrier to the final destination, someplace to mine.
This must be all for the lulz, or the “role-playing”, not the credits - it’s way more work and expense to do this to someone than to just mine the stuff yourself. The scheme’s basically complete once you’ve stranded the victim; but I suppose these awful people probably do return sometimes in case the victim logs in again, to role play being concentration camp commander.
It must be infuriating to be a MMO creator when psychopaths put so much effort into turning game features into ways to hurt people.
posted by radagast at 10:59 AM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
It sounds like the griefers get the new player to build a ship with mining equipment (very cheap in game) but a very short jump distance, so they can be stranded. Then, (not mentioned in the article) I’m guessing they give ‘em a ride to a system that’s a moderate distance from all others, but with NO ship outfitting. If the new player docks there, that’s their new location if they self destruct. That’s how they can be trapped, with no way out in a single system, no matter what they do. The briefer gives them a ride on a fleet carrier to the final destination, someplace to mine.
This must be all for the lulz, or the “role-playing”, not the credits - it’s way more work and expense to do this to someone than to just mine the stuff yourself. The scheme’s basically complete once you’ve stranded the victim; but I suppose these awful people probably do return sometimes in case the victim logs in again, to role play being concentration camp commander.
It must be infuriating to be a MMO creator when psychopaths put so much effort into turning game features into ways to hurt people.
posted by radagast at 10:59 AM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
Elite has PvP but like everything else in the game it's a bit of a mess.
When ED players say "don't fly without rebuy"
Honestly I think this is emblematic of a lot of E:D's problems: if there's no rational reason to fly without being able to afford the insurance, why does the game even let you do it (except as a 'noob' trap)? It's a game that punishes mistakes rather than rewards good play, which pushes players into very tedious defensive play styles, which carries over into multiplayer interactions.
posted by Pyry at 11:00 AM on February 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
When ED players say "don't fly without rebuy"
Honestly I think this is emblematic of a lot of E:D's problems: if there's no rational reason to fly without being able to afford the insurance, why does the game even let you do it (except as a 'noob' trap)? It's a game that punishes mistakes rather than rewards good play, which pushes players into very tedious defensive play styles, which carries over into multiplayer interactions.
posted by Pyry at 11:00 AM on February 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
~they could just teleport you back to somewhere safe
~As stated multiple times in this article, people always had the option to destroy their starship and respawn.
That just seems like a very inequitable "solution" to stick noobs with in this sort of situation. They shouldn't be penalized for falling for a scam like this, especially considering it's gaming the rules (such as they are) and mechanics of the game itself just to be dicks and profit from being dicks.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:02 AM on February 5, 2021
~As stated multiple times in this article, people always had the option to destroy their starship and respawn.
That just seems like a very inequitable "solution" to stick noobs with in this sort of situation. They shouldn't be penalized for falling for a scam like this, especially considering it's gaming the rules (such as they are) and mechanics of the game itself just to be dicks and profit from being dicks.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:02 AM on February 5, 2021
Does Elite have PvP?
Yes. There are 3 types of online play.
1) You're in the universe alone with AI, but are still affected by larger scale galaxy changes, can take part in community events.
2) You're in the universe with just your buddies in a private group, every other ship is AI.
3) You're in the public universe, with everyone else who is in public, plus a bunch of AI ships. Anyone can shoot anyone. Or help anyone, as the fuel rats do (refueling players who get stranded way out in the black)
In this case, they were finding new players in public, conning them into switching over a private group (option 2), refitting their ship so it could only make tiny, short jumps, then using a carrier to fly them way, way out to mine for a pittance for the group instead of the startup help they thought were getting.
If you don't even know you can blow up your ship and reset back to your starting system - because every time you quit and restart you end up in the same place, only able to talk to the lying shitty assholes that trapped you - it's a pretty nasty place to get stuck, perhaps believing that the only way out is if you pay them off at a massive loss.
Some players have taken the penalty of resetting back to their start system, others have been rescued by the 'Hull Seals', and some have quit Elite in disgust never to come back.
Trolling newbs is nothing new in any MMO/online game alas, but this 'virtual slavery' is a pretty inventive approach. Finding out it was neo-nazis... this is my surprised face. 😒
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 11:02 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yes. There are 3 types of online play.
1) You're in the universe alone with AI, but are still affected by larger scale galaxy changes, can take part in community events.
2) You're in the universe with just your buddies in a private group, every other ship is AI.
3) You're in the public universe, with everyone else who is in public, plus a bunch of AI ships. Anyone can shoot anyone. Or help anyone, as the fuel rats do (refueling players who get stranded way out in the black)
In this case, they were finding new players in public, conning them into switching over a private group (option 2), refitting their ship so it could only make tiny, short jumps, then using a carrier to fly them way, way out to mine for a pittance for the group instead of the startup help they thought were getting.
If you don't even know you can blow up your ship and reset back to your starting system - because every time you quit and restart you end up in the same place, only able to talk to the lying shitty assholes that trapped you - it's a pretty nasty place to get stuck, perhaps believing that the only way out is if you pay them off at a massive loss.
Some players have taken the penalty of resetting back to their start system, others have been rescued by the 'Hull Seals', and some have quit Elite in disgust never to come back.
Trolling newbs is nothing new in any MMO/online game alas, but this 'virtual slavery' is a pretty inventive approach. Finding out it was neo-nazis... this is my surprised face. 😒
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 11:02 AM on February 5, 2021 [3 favorites]
See, this is one of those examples of why punching nazis is always a moral good. I played Elite:Dangerous for quite a while back around launch and had a great time derping around the galaxy playing solo PvE against the AI. I haven't played in a while (except firing it up when I got my Oculus so I could finally see what the back of my cockpit looked like - haven't figured out how to rig my joystick etc to operate while I can't easily see them). I had heard about fleet carriers as a game addition but didn't consider that a way to screw the game for folks. Hooray for Fuel Rats and Hull Seals and other folks making the galaxy safer.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:14 PM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 12:14 PM on February 5, 2021 [4 favorites]
I suspect that if anybody trapped out there sent a message to Frontier support they'd get teleported back home, but somebody new to the game is not going to understand the extent to which they've been fucked over and how to communicate it to support.
Like all online games, the worst thing about Elite is the other people in it. I've drifted away numerous times in part due to frustration at Frontier not really doing anything about griefing, and the community's embrace of the "play in open and get griefed by griefers because realism also what are you some kind of baby" attitude.
posted by sinfony at 12:34 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Like all online games, the worst thing about Elite is the other people in it. I've drifted away numerous times in part due to frustration at Frontier not really doing anything about griefing, and the community's embrace of the "play in open and get griefed by griefers because realism also what are you some kind of baby" attitude.
posted by sinfony at 12:34 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is great. I love it when people game a system in ways that it was not intended.
posted by hoodrich at 12:36 PM on February 5, 2021
posted by hoodrich at 12:36 PM on February 5, 2021
Very proud former Fuel Rat here. (Only former as I’m not currently playing)
Delighted with how much further they’re taking their more epic rescues!
posted by edd at 12:49 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Delighted with how much further they’re taking their more epic rescues!
posted by edd at 12:49 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
and this is why the Elite player on the other side of my office just plays solo. It's bad enough dealing with the AI pirates, he doesn't need the grief. He just wants to walk on planets and mine stuff.
posted by jb at 1:27 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 1:27 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
I thought about playing E:D for a while. I even bought a copy when it was on sale one time, but by the time I was in a position to spend enough time to get started, enough stories of shitty griefers had surfaced and No Man's Sky had been fixed and was on sale that I have never bothered playing.
Turns out I just want to walk on planets, mine stuff, and I don't mind a completely nonsensical model of gravity in space, so it worked out. Elite: Dangerous turned out to be one of those things I wanted to exist but was perfectly fine experiencing in video form. I'm kinda done with actually playing games that don't have the option to be totally chill, which is probably why I still haven't finished RDR2, as much as I enjoy wandering about the map at times.
posted by wierdo at 1:55 PM on February 5, 2021
Turns out I just want to walk on planets, mine stuff, and I don't mind a completely nonsensical model of gravity in space, so it worked out. Elite: Dangerous turned out to be one of those things I wanted to exist but was perfectly fine experiencing in video form. I'm kinda done with actually playing games that don't have the option to be totally chill, which is probably why I still haven't finished RDR2, as much as I enjoy wandering about the map at times.
posted by wierdo at 1:55 PM on February 5, 2021
2) You're in the universe with just your buddies in a private group, every other ship is AI.
So that makes isolating new players even more malicious. It's definitely screwing over the player and not their avatar. (Edit: It also makes the malice more confusing to me, as the slavers don't even get bragging rights except within their PG?)
But now I'm confused how people like the Fuel Rats can even help then?
posted by mark k at 2:36 PM on February 5, 2021
So that makes isolating new players even more malicious. It's definitely screwing over the player and not their avatar. (Edit: It also makes the malice more confusing to me, as the slavers don't even get bragging rights except within their PG?)
But now I'm confused how people like the Fuel Rats can even help then?
posted by mark k at 2:36 PM on February 5, 2021
Once the Fuel Rats ID the system these poor folks are trapped in they can pop in with Fuel Rat's own Fleet Carriers. These carriers are the type of ships that can jump great distances the trapped player's ships cannot.
posted by zenon at 9:04 PM on February 5, 2021
posted by zenon at 9:04 PM on February 5, 2021
Does them being in a player group not isolate them from the (non-AI) Fleet Carriers the Fuel Rats sent?
Assume all the background knowledge I have about this game is from comments on this thread.
posted by mark k at 9:28 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
Assume all the background knowledge I have about this game is from comments on this thread.
posted by mark k at 9:28 PM on February 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
You contact the Fuel Rats outside the game. One of their instructions will be to tell the rescuee to switch back to public mode, and arrange to be online at the appropriate time so the designated Rat(s) can come help them in-game. In this case, given the situation, they called in another friendly group - the Hull Seals, who are more used to going into dangerous situations to rescue players in ships that are badly damaged and can't escape - to do the actual rescues. IIRC, the xbox version of the game is separate from the PC version, further complicating matters (i.e. only console Hull Seals can rescue console new players)
It doesn't say if they had to shoot any Nazis in public to effect rescues, alas.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:37 AM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
It doesn't say if they had to shoot any Nazis in public to effect rescues, alas.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:37 AM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
The in game copy regarding slavery is pretty gross (I think they're going for a Roman empire vibe, but it's not handled well). I'm not surprised that the game would attract Nazis. I haven't run into them in-game, but then I don't run into anyone in-game.
posted by mscibing at 5:59 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by mscibing at 5:59 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
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