The Cost of a Big Lie
February 6, 2021 4:19 AM Subscribe
Florida-based Smartmatic filed a defamation suit Thursday against Fox News, some of its better-known news employees and two attorneys close to Trump, Sidney Powell and former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. The lawsuit, which seeks $2.7 billion in damages, accuses them of executing a coordinated disinformation campaign aimed at convincing the public of rampant election fraud. Smartmatic’s suit follows a pair of similar complaints filed last month by Dominion against Giuliani and Powell, accusing both of spreading bogus claims for self-promotion and a shot at salvaging a second term for Trump. Fox News Faces $2.7 Billion Lawsuit Over Voting Machine Fraud Claims [Bloomberg]
"This is the definition of defamation." [CNN]
Both the Dominion suit and the Smartmatic suit would be things of rare comic genius, if not so tragic.
[CW: 2020 ]
"This is the definition of defamation." [CNN]
Both the Dominion suit and the Smartmatic suit would be things of rare comic genius, if not so tragic.
[CW: 2020 ]
While it is nice to see some Motherfucking Consequences, I'm a little perturbed that the most direct consequences have been due to private voting machine companies launching lawsuits.
posted by Merus at 4:37 AM on February 6, 2021 [64 favorites]
posted by Merus at 4:37 AM on February 6, 2021 [64 favorites]
Firing Lou Dobbs is not the same or even close to finding in court that "journalists" used any means necessary to promote a lie. Firing Mr. Dobbs does not limit News Corporation's liability nor indemnify it from lawsuits stemming from his on-air conduct.
The idea that is does ignores that there are hundreds of other employees in this company whose decisions matter as much or more than the on-air commentary these hosts presented.
posted by parmanparman at 4:42 AM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
The idea that is does ignores that there are hundreds of other employees in this company whose decisions matter as much or more than the on-air commentary these hosts presented.
posted by parmanparman at 4:42 AM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
I have to think that these lawsuits will be successful. The accused don't have any rational argument that they were telling the truth and the damage to the plaintiffs is obvious in terms of reputation and real in terms of localities more reluctant to use their services.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:12 AM on February 6, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:12 AM on February 6, 2021 [19 favorites]
Will this finally be the stroke we have been waiting for? Can we have a class action suit for their damages to our climate?
posted by eustatic at 5:20 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 5:20 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Lawyer Reacts to Smartmatic's $2.7 Billion Dollar Suit #shorts - YouTube (59 sec.)
One of the most epic complaints you will ever see in a lawsuit.posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:39 AM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Whether Lou Dobbs was fired in connection to the lawsuit (stupidly, because -come on- horse has not only already left the barn but the pasture and maybe the county, too) or not, I'm just glad to hear the despicable shit-head is off the air.
And boy golly would it be... satisfying... if these lawsuits not only succeeded but had long-lasting affects.
Trump really, but really does ruin everything he touches.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:41 AM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
And boy golly would it be... satisfying... if these lawsuits not only succeeded but had long-lasting affects.
Trump really, but really does ruin everything he touches.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:41 AM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
I have a feeling firing Dobbs was less of a CYA move by Fox ('cause, it in no way C's their A) than it was a result of Lou not willing to cut out the batshittery after the suit was filed.
Fox: Lou, y'gotta cool it with the stolen election bullshit.
Lou: Fuckyoutrumpwonelectionwasstolendominionsmartmaticdominionsmartmaticdominionsmartmaticdominionsmartmatic!!!!
Fox: Enjoy retirement, Lou.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:05 AM on February 6, 2021 [43 favorites]
Fox: Lou, y'gotta cool it with the stolen election bullshit.
Lou: Fuckyoutrumpwonelectionwasstolendominionsmartmaticdominionsmartmaticdominionsmartmaticdominionsmartmatic!!!!
Fox: Enjoy retirement, Lou.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:05 AM on February 6, 2021 [43 favorites]
I imagine they will go with the "We are entertainers nobody really takes us seriously when we spout off" defense...and I wouldn't bet against it working.
posted by COD at 6:28 AM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by COD at 6:28 AM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
The LA Times is speculating that Larry Kudlow might take Dobbs' spot, so let's not assume that Fox is out of the falsehoods business quite yet.
posted by PhineasGage at 6:49 AM on February 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 6:49 AM on February 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The other thing is that Lou Dobbs for so long had been unprofitable for the network. 7pm prime time and nobody would advertise on him. They needed a way to fire the hyposhit without blowback and "he cost us a $2.7b lawsuit" it convenient cover for that.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:56 AM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:56 AM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
I, for one, hope Fox fights this all the way, and we discover just the sheer amount of fuckery that these election machine companies have engaged in.
I don't think that in any way was Trump the "true winner" in 2020, but I think in fact some Republican senators may have had votes thrown their way, and discovery in this lawsuit could be damning.
posted by explosion at 6:59 AM on February 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
I don't think that in any way was Trump the "true winner" in 2020, but I think in fact some Republican senators may have had votes thrown their way, and discovery in this lawsuit could be damning.
posted by explosion at 6:59 AM on February 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
I have to think that these lawsuits will be successful.
Better still, the voting machine companies simply have to take this the whole way, and absolutely crush the defendants. To come to any kind of settlement implies that there was at least some merit to the defendants' arguments, and the companies cannot allow the slightest whiff of that if they are going to survive. Their only option is to kill Rudy and Sid.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:05 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Better still, the voting machine companies simply have to take this the whole way, and absolutely crush the defendants. To come to any kind of settlement implies that there was at least some merit to the defendants' arguments, and the companies cannot allow the slightest whiff of that if they are going to survive. Their only option is to kill Rudy and Sid.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:05 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't think that in any way was Trump the "true winner" in 2020, but I think in fact some Republican senators may have had votes thrown their way, and discovery in this lawsuit could be damning.We have no evidence supporting this. I don’t know whether you intended to lend your voice in support of Trump’s attacks on electoral integrity but that’s all voicing conspiracy theories is doing.
posted by adamsc at 7:10 AM on February 6, 2021 [54 favorites]
I don't think that in any way was Trump the "true winner" in 2020, but I think in fact some Republican senators may have had votes thrown their way, and discovery in this lawsuit could be damning.
If these companies were actually participating in skulduggery, to the point that discovery would turn up evidence to that fact, a competent lawyer would not allow the suit to go to discovery. I can't say how secure and effective these voting machines truly are, but "I'm going to sue you for reporting on the thing I actually did" is not a winning strategy, when you're going up against an opponent with pockets at least as deep as yours.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:10 AM on February 6, 2021 [19 favorites]
If these companies were actually participating in skulduggery, to the point that discovery would turn up evidence to that fact, a competent lawyer would not allow the suit to go to discovery. I can't say how secure and effective these voting machines truly are, but "I'm going to sue you for reporting on the thing I actually did" is not a winning strategy, when you're going up against an opponent with pockets at least as deep as yours.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:10 AM on February 6, 2021 [19 favorites]
Better still, the voting machine companies simply have to take this the whole way, and absolutely crush the defendants.
I hope so too, but you've got to imagine Fox is going to be offering shitloads of cash to settle, and threatening to draw out the case for decades making the cost of going ahead prohibitive.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:27 AM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I hope so too, but you've got to imagine Fox is going to be offering shitloads of cash to settle, and threatening to draw out the case for decades making the cost of going ahead prohibitive.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:27 AM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Voting machine manufactures have sued security researchers in the past intending to suppress their findings. This is not one of those lawsuits. I am worried though that the field is now preceived as tainted with conspiracy theory, which risks dismissing the kind of useful security research that resulted in eg, the institution of paper trails.
posted by joeyh at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
I have to imagine that Dobbs was fired so that he'd need to pay for his own (very expensive) legal defense, as he is directly named as a defendant in the suit.
posted by whir at 7:40 AM on February 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by whir at 7:40 AM on February 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't think that in any way was Trump the "true winner" in 2020, but I think in fact some Republican senators may have had votes thrown their way, and discovery in this lawsuit could be damning.
If you suspect that some Republican senators may have won illegitimately, may I direct you to consider the vast, largely open enterprise of vote suppression and gerrymandering as a more likely cause?
posted by Merus at 8:21 AM on February 6, 2021 [62 favorites]
If you suspect that some Republican senators may have won illegitimately, may I direct you to consider the vast, largely open enterprise of vote suppression and gerrymandering as a more likely cause?
posted by Merus at 8:21 AM on February 6, 2021 [62 favorites]
What joeyh said. There are so many legit concerns about shitty voting machines, many of which are utterly insecure, that this kind of lawsuit is a mixed bag in that it might also cause left-leaning folks to ignore the serious, serious issues with non-handmarked-paper-ballot voting.
Don't fall into that trap. Voting machine companies are opaque, refuse to allow their software to be exmined, have repeatedly lied about vulnerabilities, and have produced some very questionable results in numerous elections. Left-wingers need to pay attention to the work being done to document that, even as we celebrate assholes like Lou Dobbs finally getting shitcanned. (Well, failing sideways to OAN, probably, but still.)
posted by mediareport at 8:24 AM on February 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
Don't fall into that trap. Voting machine companies are opaque, refuse to allow their software to be exmined, have repeatedly lied about vulnerabilities, and have produced some very questionable results in numerous elections. Left-wingers need to pay attention to the work being done to document that, even as we celebrate assholes like Lou Dobbs finally getting shitcanned. (Well, failing sideways to OAN, probably, but still.)
posted by mediareport at 8:24 AM on February 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
We have no evidence supporting this. I don’t know whether you intended to lend your voice in support of Trump’s attacks on electoral integrity but that’s all voicing conspiracy theories is doing.
It's always, always, always projection with them. They say there was fraud, it means they were defrauding.
I admit to not being an expert, but this Twitter thread is nothing if not compelling. Granted, this thread is alleging that ES&S machines are the issue and not Smartmatic or Dominion.
posted by explosion at 8:26 AM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
It's always, always, always projection with them. They say there was fraud, it means they were defrauding.
I admit to not being an expert, but this Twitter thread is nothing if not compelling. Granted, this thread is alleging that ES&S machines are the issue and not Smartmatic or Dominion.
posted by explosion at 8:26 AM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
According to Smartmatic, they don’t actually even have any contracts to supply their voting software to any swing states... or, in fact, anyplace in the US outside of LA county. They were selling their encryption software mostly outside the US. Having their company name dragged into the GOP voter fraud fever dream was a true nightmare for them and has destroyed their business.
Source: The NYTimes’ Daily podcast.
Also one angle to be aware of, Smartmatic is owned by Venezuelan immigrants and Giuliani et al. were claiming the owners/their company were somehow connected to Hugo Chavez (the owners deny this allegation). Possibly relevant to this, in 2020, Trump got a lot of support from Venezuelan immigrants in Miami because his messaging managed to somehow link Biden to Chavez.
Btw, I strongly agree that voting needs paper records and that voting machines are potentially a disaster for democracy, but I don’t think every voting technology company is necessarily evil incarnate.
posted by disentir at 8:49 AM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Source: The NYTimes’ Daily podcast.
Also one angle to be aware of, Smartmatic is owned by Venezuelan immigrants and Giuliani et al. were claiming the owners/their company were somehow connected to Hugo Chavez (the owners deny this allegation). Possibly relevant to this, in 2020, Trump got a lot of support from Venezuelan immigrants in Miami because his messaging managed to somehow link Biden to Chavez.
Btw, I strongly agree that voting needs paper records and that voting machines are potentially a disaster for democracy, but I don’t think every voting technology company is necessarily evil incarnate.
posted by disentir at 8:49 AM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
I imagine they will go with the "We are entertainers nobody really takes us seriously when we spout off" defense...and I wouldn't bet against it working.
I get the impression the plaintiffs already planned for this. The suit goes into pretty deep detail about how future customers have either expressed doubt about using Smartmatic or have actually walked away (although that's not really documented here) so now there's a number they can compute for lost business?
Same for the amount of money they've had to spend on security for both their systems and employees. The death threats are documented right in the filing.
The sum total of that definitely points to the response of "no, people did take this seriously and here's the damage count", which is how they got to 2.7 billion. That number probably is going to be questioned a bit. How can you put a value on a customer that never showed up? But it's definitely non-zero.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:51 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
I get the impression the plaintiffs already planned for this. The suit goes into pretty deep detail about how future customers have either expressed doubt about using Smartmatic or have actually walked away (although that's not really documented here) so now there's a number they can compute for lost business?
Same for the amount of money they've had to spend on security for both their systems and employees. The death threats are documented right in the filing.
The sum total of that definitely points to the response of "no, people did take this seriously and here's the damage count", which is how they got to 2.7 billion. That number probably is going to be questioned a bit. How can you put a value on a customer that never showed up? But it's definitely non-zero.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:51 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
"How can you put a value on a customer that never showed up? But it's definitely non-zero."
Something something home taping is killing the music industry...
posted by kaibutsu at 10:00 AM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Something something home taping is killing the music industry...
posted by kaibutsu at 10:00 AM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Fox gets no points for removing Dobbs _months after_ he was one of the stars on their airwaves, actively and repeatedly urging insurrection and sedition, promoting the Sidney Powell Cinematic Universe and instructing Trump to take "drastic action" to claim "what is rightfully his, a second term."
In a just universe, Dobbs would be hastily preparing a criminal defense right now, and he'd have lots of company.
posted by delfin at 10:14 AM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
In a just universe, Dobbs would be hastily preparing a criminal defense right now, and he'd have lots of company.
posted by delfin at 10:14 AM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
I, for one, hope Fox fights this all the way, and we discover just the sheer amount of fuckery that these election machine companies have engaged in.
The fuckery isn't in literally changing votes. It's selling (in many cases) unreliable, unauditable, easily hacked shit to states and getting the contracts with targeted campaign contributions.
posted by wierdo at 10:14 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
The fuckery isn't in literally changing votes. It's selling (in many cases) unreliable, unauditable, easily hacked shit to states and getting the contracts with targeted campaign contributions.
posted by wierdo at 10:14 AM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
I’m just glad Rebel Media is on the list.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:43 AM on February 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 11:43 AM on February 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've read that their market capitalization is about $20B, so this suit is a fight over roughly a tenth of their value, I guess? Would FOX News settle out of court, and basically just give Dominion some piece of the company in stock or whatever?
Just trying to figure out if ownership adjustment of that size would change the editorial position in any serious way, to move it away from their poisonous effect in society, or whether it would just be a business transaction and things would go on largely as before, except with less or no damaging reporting about voting machines and vulnerabilities, etc.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:11 PM on February 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Just trying to figure out if ownership adjustment of that size would change the editorial position in any serious way, to move it away from their poisonous effect in society, or whether it would just be a business transaction and things would go on largely as before, except with less or no damaging reporting about voting machines and vulnerabilities, etc.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:11 PM on February 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you want some more concrete examples of what this lawsuit is doing, watch how quickly Newsmax hits the brakes when Mike Lindell says "voting machines" during an interview.
In 20 seconds the host goes from blurting a disclaimer to getting up and walking off camera.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:44 PM on February 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
In 20 seconds the host goes from blurting a disclaimer to getting up and walking off camera.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:44 PM on February 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
Thank you so much for this post, chavenet - I was thinking about making one, and I'm glad you beat me to it.
A few additional links:
the Smartmatic lawsuit (285 page PDF)
the December 10 retraction demand (20 page PDF)
'There is real teeth to this': Legal experts weigh in on Smartmatic's $2.7 billion lawsuit against Fox News, CNN Business
Smartmatic's FAQ - definitely worth reading
I really hope they sue Newsmax and One America, too.
posted by kristi at 1:53 PM on February 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
A few additional links:
the Smartmatic lawsuit (285 page PDF)
the December 10 retraction demand (20 page PDF)
'There is real teeth to this': Legal experts weigh in on Smartmatic's $2.7 billion lawsuit against Fox News, CNN Business
"This is the definition of defamation."Smartmatic's Feb. 4 press release
That's what CNN senior legal analyst Laura Coates told Erin Burnett Thursday night when discussing Smartmatic's $2.7 billion defamation lawsuit against Fox News, three of the network's hosts (Lou Dobbs, Maria Bartiromo, and Jeanine Pirro), Rudy Giuliani, and Sidney Powell.
“Fox News engaged in a conspiracy to spread disinformation about Smartmatic. They lied, and they did so knowingly and intentionally. Smartmatic seeks to hold them accountable for those lies,” said Smartmatic’s attorney J. Erik Connolly...Smartmatic's Dec. 10 press release
Smartmatic announced today that it is issuing legal notices and retraction demand letters to Fox News, Newsmax and One America News Network for publishing false and defamatory statements. The demand letters identify dozens of factually inaccurate statements made by each of the organizations as part of a “disinformation campaign” to injure Smartmatic and discredit the 2020 U.S. election.... a reminder that they have also served retraction demands to Newsmax and One America, so there may be more lawsuits in the works.
Smartmatic's FAQ - definitely worth reading
Will Smartmatic consider settling out of court if an offer is made?And that, to me, is the stunning thing - Smartmatic's only involvement in the 2020 election was in a single US county. The Dec. 20 retraction demand lists specific statements by Giuliani and Bartiromo about Smartmatic use in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Phoenix, and Milwaukee, and in several swing states. And they repeatedly claimed that Smartmatic owns Dominion, when the truth is,
Smartmatic is determined to realize the goals as stated in the lawsuit – namely appropriate compensatory damages, punitive damages, and full and complete retraction of the disinformation on all of Fox’s platforms.
...
What statements have they made that are false?
Fox made over 100 false statements and implications about Smartmatic. The overall theme of the disinformation campaign was that Smartmatic fixed, rigged, and stole the 2020 U.S. election. That is absolutely false. Smartmatic only provided services and technology to Los Angeles County in the 2020 election.
Smartmatic has no corporate relationship with Dominion. Smartmatic does not own Dominion. Dominion does not own Smartmatic. Neither is a parent, subsidiary, or intermediary of the other. Smartmatic and Dominion are competitors.One of the brilliant things is that Fox responded to the retraction demand with a news package debunking election fraud claims (After legal threat, Fox airs news package debunking election fraud claims made by its own hosts, CNN) - and the lawsuit uses this to show that Fox had always had ready access to election experts who could have debunked the lies before Fox spread them, but they chose to defame Smartmatic instead:
Mr. Perez was always available to the Fox Defendants. The Fox Defendants could have put Mr. Perez on the air at any time prior to December 18 ... to tell people that the statements being made about Smartmatic were baseless. The Fox Defendants did not put Mr. Perez on the air until after receiving Smartmatic’s retraction demand letter because the Fox Defendants had agreed with Mr. Giuliani and Ms. Powell to spread the disinformation campaign for as long as they could.Finally, the company and their lawyer are pointing out the public good that this lawsuit could produce:
Connolly ... said that he hoped the actions taken by Smartmatic might clear up the polluted information environment in the US.I think this is a really important suit (along with the Dominion suite), and I hope it really does change the willingness of public figures to lie so shamelessly.
"I think it's the type of case that has to be brought right now to try to get us away from disinformation," Connolly said. "Disinformation has a free rein right now. This kind of case can be a shot across the bow that courts can deliver that says, 'Let's get back to reality. Let's get back to factual reporting.'"
I really hope they sue Newsmax and One America, too.
posted by kristi at 1:53 PM on February 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
America will do a shit job defending democracy but good god look out if you hurt some stocks!
posted by srboisvert at 2:02 PM on February 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:02 PM on February 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
I admit to not being an expert, but this Twitter thread is nothing if not compelling. Granted, this thread is alleging that ES&S machines are the issue and not Smartmatic or Dominion.
I found that thread pretty uncompelling. Her first point I investigated was that Breathitt County had 11k registered voters for 13k population, which she insists is improbably high and the result of Russian hacking. But the KY certified election results had about 5600 votes for the county. So if Russian hackers registered fake voters, they forgot to have them vote.
posted by justkevin at 3:19 PM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
I found that thread pretty uncompelling. Her first point I investigated was that Breathitt County had 11k registered voters for 13k population, which she insists is improbably high and the result of Russian hacking. But the KY certified election results had about 5600 votes for the county. So if Russian hackers registered fake voters, they forgot to have them vote.
posted by justkevin at 3:19 PM on February 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
Btw, I strongly agree that voting needs paper records and that voting machines are potentially a disaster for democracy, but I don’t think every voting technology company is necessarily evil incarnate.
The way to manage these risks of capitalism is strict regulation. Our board of elections uses scan-tron ballots, which you fill in with a pen, and then they're fed into a ballot scanner, which stores them in a lockbox for later auditing.
posted by mikelieman at 4:28 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
The way to manage these risks of capitalism is strict regulation. Our board of elections uses scan-tron ballots, which you fill in with a pen, and then they're fed into a ballot scanner, which stores them in a lockbox for later auditing.
posted by mikelieman at 4:28 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Scantron style ballots are great, if you have no disability that makes them difficult or impossible to use and your jurisdiction requires that the scanner be set to (initially) reject ballots with over or undervotes so as to confirm the voter's intent.
The problem for those concerned about security is that the tabulation software isn't really any more secure than the touch screen machines are anyway. I've got no issue with touch-based systems as long as they print out a voter verified ballot that serves as the official record in case of recount or audit. My preference is that they be open source (not necessarily public, but open to the purchaser and anyone they choose), but it's not strictly necessary so long as there is a voter verified paper trail of some kind.
It's that paper trail that is most important, as it allows for digital fuckery to be detected and rectified. Anything beyond that is just nice to have.
posted by wierdo at 4:59 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
The problem for those concerned about security is that the tabulation software isn't really any more secure than the touch screen machines are anyway. I've got no issue with touch-based systems as long as they print out a voter verified ballot that serves as the official record in case of recount or audit. My preference is that they be open source (not necessarily public, but open to the purchaser and anyone they choose), but it's not strictly necessary so long as there is a voter verified paper trail of some kind.
It's that paper trail that is most important, as it allows for digital fuckery to be detected and rectified. Anything beyond that is just nice to have.
posted by wierdo at 4:59 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Scantron style ballots are great, if you have no disability that makes them difficult or impossible to use and your jurisdiction requires that the scanner be set to (initially) reject ballots with over or undervotes so as to confirm the voter's intent.
We use ES&S's Ballot Marking Device in that case. It provides all the accessibility options, which isn't TOO BAD if the ballot isn't too long, but "Suck" goes up geometrically with ballot length.
posted by mikelieman at 6:15 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
We use ES&S's Ballot Marking Device in that case. It provides all the accessibility options, which isn't TOO BAD if the ballot isn't too long, but "Suck" goes up geometrically with ballot length.
posted by mikelieman at 6:15 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I admit to not being an expert, but this Twitter thread is nothing if not compelling
Sorry, no.
In the first place that 18% approval rating that she based her whole "analysis" on is from August 2017, not 2020. Whereas reports from late October 2020 gave him a 39% approval rating. Maybe not great, but not such a stretch for reelection. Because "approval" is not the same thing as "I think he's effective and I will still vote for him even if I don't like him."
And then Greene does basically the same damn thing the Trumpists were doing; starting with a conclusion - McConnell's approval is so low that it must signify something shady - and then finding "proof" for this conclusion by complex comparisons of (possibly inaccurate) numbers that are not necessarily related. Because she's unable or unwilling to accept that 1) split votes absolutely do happen, and 2) that "approval" polls - often with small sample sizes - are simply not reliable proportionate indicators of actual votes.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:20 PM on February 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
Sorry, no.
In the first place that 18% approval rating that she based her whole "analysis" on is from August 2017, not 2020. Whereas reports from late October 2020 gave him a 39% approval rating. Maybe not great, but not such a stretch for reelection. Because "approval" is not the same thing as "I think he's effective and I will still vote for him even if I don't like him."
And then Greene does basically the same damn thing the Trumpists were doing; starting with a conclusion - McConnell's approval is so low that it must signify something shady - and then finding "proof" for this conclusion by complex comparisons of (possibly inaccurate) numbers that are not necessarily related. Because she's unable or unwilling to accept that 1) split votes absolutely do happen, and 2) that "approval" polls - often with small sample sizes - are simply not reliable proportionate indicators of actual votes.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:20 PM on February 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
ACORN and Planned Parenthood need to learn a lesson from this.
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Mod note: re, Mitch McConnell's results and fraud speculations, let's drop that here please. If there's news on it, it can be its own post, but it's getting distracting in this thread.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:28 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:28 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
So if Faux News loses this lawsuit (and I really, REALLY can’t see them pulling off any kind of a win here) - do they finally have to drop their pretense at being “fair and balanced”?
If only we had some sort of law that required news agencies to tell the truth.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:56 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
If only we had some sort of law that required news agencies to tell the truth.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:56 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
do they finally have to drop their pretense at being “fair and balanced”?
They haven’t used this slogan for years.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:12 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
They haven’t used this slogan for years.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:12 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
> I admit to not being an expert, but this Twitter thread is nothing if not compelling. Granted, this thread is alleging that ES&S machines are the issue and not Smartmatic or Dominion.
There is a lot of great work being done out there in the information security community to root out actual problems with electronic voting machines and push for reforms like requiring a paper trail and routine third-party security audits and penetration testing. There is also great work being done by political activists to highlight legitimate problems in publicly-available data on elections. However, there are also a lot of people working backwards from results they don't like who seize on "irregularities" that, it turns out, are quite regular in the course of conducting elections in such a heterogeneous system made up of human beings who make mistakes. That thread clearly looks like the latter.
Many on the Democratic side did this sort of cherry-picking in 2004 to try to say that certain problems in Ohio or elsewhere constituted a successful attempt to overturn the results. At some point, there are just so many potential sources of error in our system that we have to insist on a minimum threshold of evidence to take allegations of fraud or conspiracy seriously. We're never going to federalize our elections (nor should we), but we can fix the voting machines, and we can nibble around the margins in terms of making more resources available at the state and county levels to reduce the number of mistakes, keeping in mind that some "mistakes" are of the intentional variety. Still, there are always going to be anecdata that look like a pattern when you choose to ignore many other errors in the other direction.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:18 AM on February 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
There is a lot of great work being done out there in the information security community to root out actual problems with electronic voting machines and push for reforms like requiring a paper trail and routine third-party security audits and penetration testing. There is also great work being done by political activists to highlight legitimate problems in publicly-available data on elections. However, there are also a lot of people working backwards from results they don't like who seize on "irregularities" that, it turns out, are quite regular in the course of conducting elections in such a heterogeneous system made up of human beings who make mistakes. That thread clearly looks like the latter.
Many on the Democratic side did this sort of cherry-picking in 2004 to try to say that certain problems in Ohio or elsewhere constituted a successful attempt to overturn the results. At some point, there are just so many potential sources of error in our system that we have to insist on a minimum threshold of evidence to take allegations of fraud or conspiracy seriously. We're never going to federalize our elections (nor should we), but we can fix the voting machines, and we can nibble around the margins in terms of making more resources available at the state and county levels to reduce the number of mistakes, keeping in mind that some "mistakes" are of the intentional variety. Still, there are always going to be anecdata that look like a pattern when you choose to ignore many other errors in the other direction.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:18 AM on February 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yes, there are always things that make you go hmmm in any large scale organization or project (ask my SO.. she's got plenty of stories from her days as an auditor). The vast majority of the time there isn't actually a there there. One time it did happen, and that has caused a lot of people, including myself, to see seemingly strange things and jump to conclusions.
Election security is worth talking about. Just because nobody has bothered to or has been successful at changing votes yet doesn't mean it can't happen. It almost certainly will. No software is perfect. There is always an edge case, even if you haven't found it yet. Alleging it has happened in the face of enormous evidence to the contrary, however, is irresponsible at best. Twitter seems to attract, or at least amplify, the irresponsible for some reason. Or maybe it's just that people who are inclined that way tweet way more often than everybody else, idk.
posted by wierdo at 8:44 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Election security is worth talking about. Just because nobody has bothered to or has been successful at changing votes yet doesn't mean it can't happen. It almost certainly will. No software is perfect. There is always an edge case, even if you haven't found it yet. Alleging it has happened in the face of enormous evidence to the contrary, however, is irresponsible at best. Twitter seems to attract, or at least amplify, the irresponsible for some reason. Or maybe it's just that people who are inclined that way tweet way more often than everybody else, idk.
posted by wierdo at 8:44 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Question for those with legal training: the suit names 7 defendants. If Smartmatic wins, who pays the monetary award? Is it equally divided among parties? Is there some negotiation with the court? How does that work?
posted by kristi at 11:47 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kristi at 11:47 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Alleging it has happened in the face of enormous evidence to the contrary, however, is irresponsible at best
Reality Winner is still imprisoned for exposing some of it. I can also hope FOX gets taken to the cleaners for what their management has done, regardless. The facts underlying these matters are not mutually exclusive.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:02 PM on February 7, 2021
Reality Winner is still imprisoned for exposing some of it. I can also hope FOX gets taken to the cleaners for what their management has done, regardless. The facts underlying these matters are not mutually exclusive.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:02 PM on February 7, 2021
If Smartmatic wins, who pays the monetary award?
I would expect joint and several liability to apply here, since I wouldn't expect there to be any logical way of apportioning responsibility for the harm to Smartmatic. (In joint and several liability, each defendant is liable for the full amount of damages, which usually means that the plaintiff tries to collect from the deepest-pocketed or best-insured defendant and that defendant can then decide whether to cross-claim against the others.) But there could be aspects of the facts or applicable law that would push toward some other result.
posted by Not A Thing at 3:06 PM on February 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I would expect joint and several liability to apply here, since I wouldn't expect there to be any logical way of apportioning responsibility for the harm to Smartmatic. (In joint and several liability, each defendant is liable for the full amount of damages, which usually means that the plaintiff tries to collect from the deepest-pocketed or best-insured defendant and that defendant can then decide whether to cross-claim against the others.) But there could be aspects of the facts or applicable law that would push toward some other result.
posted by Not A Thing at 3:06 PM on February 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
We can dream that Fox News and its imitators end up like Gawker after the lawsuit by Hulk Hogan.
posted by interogative mood at 3:59 PM on February 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:59 PM on February 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
I've read both suits. It's what I've done for fun while waiting for impeachment fireworks. The Dominion one is a more enjoyable read, and it's a quick 100+ pages. The Smartmatic filing looks very complete. If you haven't taken a look at it, just read the table of contents, it's enough to bring a tear to your eye. It reads like when a chess grandmaster tells you how he's going to beat you, and no matter what you do, that's how he beats you. In the "Lawyer Reacts" video he says the $2.7B amount is made up, but to my (lay) reading, there is some logic to it. Their whole global business pipeline is dried up, and these are big contracts. If you project out over the amount of time it would take to rebuild their reputation, it's not really that much.
The weird thing about this is that Smartmatic is even involved in the Big Lie at all. They had such a demonstrably minor role in the 2020 election that all of these statements are totally false in the "knew or should have known" way. I mean, the angle they bring is some connection to scary countries (e.g. Venezuela), but why not just attribute that to Dominion, as long as you're lying.
posted by Horselover Fat at 10:32 AM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
The weird thing about this is that Smartmatic is even involved in the Big Lie at all. They had such a demonstrably minor role in the 2020 election that all of these statements are totally false in the "knew or should have known" way. I mean, the angle they bring is some connection to scary countries (e.g. Venezuela), but why not just attribute that to Dominion, as long as you're lying.
posted by Horselover Fat at 10:32 AM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you are slightly conspiracy minded, I believe both Dominion and Smartmatic machines print out ballots that are then counted, allowing for hand recounts and audits, while ES&S machines notoriously leave no paper trail. So if you count on being able to hack machines to fake votes, making sure that no ES&S machines are replaced by machines with an actual audit trail might be a priority.
posted by tavella at 1:31 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 1:31 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
The ES&S DS200 Ballot Scanner scans your scantron ballot and deposits them into a lockbox for later auditing.
The ES&S iVotronic is a direct-reading pile of shit with a bolted-on "verified voter paper trail" where they let you look at the cash-register tape through a plexiglass window.
So, it comes down to what your local board of elections picked after the HAVA was passed in 2002.
posted by mikelieman at 3:52 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
The ES&S iVotronic is a direct-reading pile of shit with a bolted-on "verified voter paper trail" where they let you look at the cash-register tape through a plexiglass window.
So, it comes down to what your local board of elections picked after the HAVA was passed in 2002.
posted by mikelieman at 3:52 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by RichardP at 4:32 AM on February 6, 2021 [19 favorites]