What I Learned in Avalanche School
February 6, 2021 10:51 AM Subscribe
I wanted to be prepared for the worst nature could throw at me. But the real threat turned out to be human. "Ninety percent of human-avalanche encounters, Ryan said, are triggered by humans, making humans the primary avalanche problem. Nature doesn’t kill people with avalanches. People kill people with avalanches. ... The problem — the primary human problem — is that people are susceptible, prideful, bullheaded, egotistic, dumbstruck and lazy. Add to this doomed slurry a little avalanche training (or what used to qualify as avalanche training, and its focus on analyzing snowpack), and people make terrible decisions with greater frequency and confidence."
Related to Sauril’s remarks — in my Avy I and Avy II courses, there were repeated references to group sizes and how they influence the odds of an avalanche burial. I thought it was interesting that groups with more women are less likely to get buried under similar weather and loading conditions, and groups that are only comprised of women almost never get buried. Having turned around from a trip to mount Darwin (no joke) due to sketchy Avy conditions (a guided group had some members buried up to their necks by a climax avalanche with a 2000’x12’ crown on mount Solomon, ripping down to the dirt at points), I feel like I paid at least some attention, although the ski cut I put in the next year when we went back and skied the big 45 degree shield on Darwin suggested I had a lot left to learn.
Another thing that is tricky is the interplay between snowpack, sensibilities, and where you learn to ski. Received wisdom holds that if you learn to ski in California or the PNW, you’ll last about two weeks in Utah or Colorado backcountry before you die in a slide. There’s some truth to that — I’ve skied out of more than a few wet slides, but wind loading and weak layers terrify me. At some level, what gets me is the acceleration of slabs vs rollers — you are not going to ski faster than a big slab, no matter how good your figure 11 technique may be. But in an ideal world, you wouldn’t go out in conditions that favor either.
There’s just one little problem — the slope angles and snow conditions that maximize risk for slab avalanches also maximize enjoyment for powder skiing. On top of that, with more people skiing in the backcountry, there is potentially more incentive to take chances for first tracks.
Bruce Tremper ran the Utah avalanche center for (i think) almost three decades and I distinctly remember him saying something like “skiing fresh, deep powder is almost like flying — better than life itself. And that is exactly the problem.” (https://blog.gaiagps.com/the-out-and-back-podcast-buried-alive-bruce-tremper-avalanche-story/ )
Over the years I’ve lost some friends to avalanches and frostbite (and lung cancer and car crashes and all the other things that kill people, sometimes with the highest risk actors dying in the most “ordinary” ways). One thing I can say for certain is that we will all die, sooner or later. If you have your affairs in order, I guess it doesn’t matter how you go. But for young people with their whole lives ahead of them, getting crushed to death by thousands of tons of snow, especially if it’s avoidable, it seems like an easy decision to come back another day. I have shitty judgment, so if I can manage it, it must not be that hard.
posted by apathy at 12:11 PM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Another thing that is tricky is the interplay between snowpack, sensibilities, and where you learn to ski. Received wisdom holds that if you learn to ski in California or the PNW, you’ll last about two weeks in Utah or Colorado backcountry before you die in a slide. There’s some truth to that — I’ve skied out of more than a few wet slides, but wind loading and weak layers terrify me. At some level, what gets me is the acceleration of slabs vs rollers — you are not going to ski faster than a big slab, no matter how good your figure 11 technique may be. But in an ideal world, you wouldn’t go out in conditions that favor either.
There’s just one little problem — the slope angles and snow conditions that maximize risk for slab avalanches also maximize enjoyment for powder skiing. On top of that, with more people skiing in the backcountry, there is potentially more incentive to take chances for first tracks.
Bruce Tremper ran the Utah avalanche center for (i think) almost three decades and I distinctly remember him saying something like “skiing fresh, deep powder is almost like flying — better than life itself. And that is exactly the problem.” (https://blog.gaiagps.com/the-out-and-back-podcast-buried-alive-bruce-tremper-avalanche-story/ )
Over the years I’ve lost some friends to avalanches and frostbite (and lung cancer and car crashes and all the other things that kill people, sometimes with the highest risk actors dying in the most “ordinary” ways). One thing I can say for certain is that we will all die, sooner or later. If you have your affairs in order, I guess it doesn’t matter how you go. But for young people with their whole lives ahead of them, getting crushed to death by thousands of tons of snow, especially if it’s avoidable, it seems like an easy decision to come back another day. I have shitty judgment, so if I can manage it, it must not be that hard.
posted by apathy at 12:11 PM on February 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
1) the article is very well written. It took me about 5 seconds to realize that I knew most of the people who taught her course, almost certainly based out of Bishop, CA. The way they teach it hasn’t changed in 20 years.
2) the description of the negative space formed by an Avy pit is remarkable. It is indeed shaped like a grave. In fact, a similar setup may explain why a large group of experienced winter trekkers died under mysterious conditions almost 50 years ago in Dyatlov pass, in what was then the Soviet Union. Anyone who enjoyed this piece will probably like that one, too:
computational models finally unlock the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass incident
Naturally, more than one heuristic can be identified there too. Maybe there are some up sides to the Midwest after all.
posted by apathy at 12:29 PM on February 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
2) the description of the negative space formed by an Avy pit is remarkable. It is indeed shaped like a grave. In fact, a similar setup may explain why a large group of experienced winter trekkers died under mysterious conditions almost 50 years ago in Dyatlov pass, in what was then the Soviet Union. Anyone who enjoyed this piece will probably like that one, too:
computational models finally unlock the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass incident
Naturally, more than one heuristic can be identified there too. Maybe there are some up sides to the Midwest after all.
posted by apathy at 12:29 PM on February 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
As far as 15 years back when I did avalanche safety, it was determined to be new-wave avalanche safety, talking about group dynamics, normalization of deviance, uncertainty. Because, it said, old-wave with all the test pits just gave people false confidence to go overboard on risk homeostasis. I wonder when old-wave was actually current.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:33 PM on February 6, 2021
posted by away for regrooving at 12:33 PM on February 6, 2021
I read this article last year, and could have sworn I had seen it discussed on metafilter, but I guess I imagined that... When I did my first round of avy courses on the east coast around Mt. Washington in 2009, my brother and I were the youngest in the group by 2 decades and the only ones who hadn't experienced a super sketchy event (and I was the only woman). Even then, the education was starting to shift more to group dynamics, but we spent a ton of time on weather forecasting and snow science. I redid my coursework in Canada last year and it was fascinating how much more psychology was emphasized, weather was completely glossed over and snow science skimmed through. (Obviously there is way better and standardized weather forecasting these days, but it still took me aback that we literally spent no time on it). The course had way more people just getting into touring, and had 40/60 gender split.
I'm usually the token woman in a group, and because of that I've gone significantly out of my way to look for ski touring groups with other women. A group of just met women is going to be significantly more cautious (although just as strong skiers!) than some of the ski buddies I've known for years, and it's interesting to compare the group dynamics. (My ski buddies are more willing to lug a jetboil on a day trip and stop for a hot meal though).
It's been interesting to increasingly see kids in the backcountry; growing up my uncles telemarked, but they absolutely discouraged us until we were in our late teens.
posted by larthegreat at 1:59 PM on February 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm usually the token woman in a group, and because of that I've gone significantly out of my way to look for ski touring groups with other women. A group of just met women is going to be significantly more cautious (although just as strong skiers!) than some of the ski buddies I've known for years, and it's interesting to compare the group dynamics. (My ski buddies are more willing to lug a jetboil on a day trip and stop for a hot meal though).
It's been interesting to increasingly see kids in the backcountry; growing up my uncles telemarked, but they absolutely discouraged us until we were in our late teens.
posted by larthegreat at 1:59 PM on February 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
My avalanche safety plan has been foolproof for over 43 years
posted by museum of fire ants at 2:57 PM on February 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by museum of fire ants at 2:57 PM on February 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
Lemme guess: don't go out in snow?
The gender relations of this are very fitting, not just in avalanche context. Women are far more likely to be blown off/just ignored by men, so who's going to listen to them if they have A Bad Feeling About This? Also this all just sounds like a giant game of chicken. "You're not AFRAID, Marty, are you? Bawk bawk!" or whatever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:35 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
The gender relations of this are very fitting, not just in avalanche context. Women are far more likely to be blown off/just ignored by men, so who's going to listen to them if they have A Bad Feeling About This? Also this all just sounds like a giant game of chicken. "You're not AFRAID, Marty, are you? Bawk bawk!" or whatever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:35 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Every time you look at that slightly sketchy thing and do it and nothing horrible happens, your amygdala learns "this is okay to do it is not fatal" and it keeps being right until suddenly, it's not. It's normalization of deviance but on a deeper emotional, maybe even physical layer. And it's hard to overrule the parts of your brain that make decisions faster than the rational part might.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:05 PM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 4:05 PM on February 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Besides everything else, I just want to note that this was very well written. Not that easy to make what sounds like a pretty mediocre training with sorta uninteresting participants into something this interesting. Kudos.
posted by slidell at 5:37 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by slidell at 5:37 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Thanks for posting- hits home at the moment. My local resort, Park City Mountain, just this week closed its backcountry gates indefinitely after several deaths to avalanche in a short period.
The weak snow pack this year, plus unusually high temperatures some days, has been making for high risk backcountry skiing - likely exacerbated in part by people avoiding the Covid restrictions/reservation system at resorts, and the early closure of the season last year causing more people to want to hit the backcountry this year.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:35 PM on February 6, 2021
The weak snow pack this year, plus unusually high temperatures some days, has been making for high risk backcountry skiing - likely exacerbated in part by people avoiding the Covid restrictions/reservation system at resorts, and the early closure of the season last year causing more people to want to hit the backcountry this year.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:35 PM on February 6, 2021
And just after my comment above I got a local news alert on my phone that four people were killed and four injured in an avalanche in the Canyons near Salt Lake today, equaling the most killed in any Utah avalanche. Fuck. I hope they passed quickly - it’s fucking terrifying to think of being stuck in one.
.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:49 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:49 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Having spent a dozen years in southwest Colorado, I can report that backcountry skiing is the most alluring of sirens. It's almost an entirely different sport from in-bounds skiing. There is the obvious solitude brought about by the lack of on-slope bars, snowmobiles, whistle-blowing ski safety officers or snow guns.
I've also learned to love skiing uphill, which usually makes me sweat so hard that I forget it is winter. But perhaps the biggest difference is the snow. Undisturbed snow that has been left to settle for a week or so takes on a fast, lively feel; such that making rapid turns on it could be compared with bouncing on a trampoline. In resorts, the fresh powder is slashed apart by mobs long before it can attain such maturity.
However all of these positive attributes weren't enough to keep me from giving up the sport. As others have mentioned backcountry skiing is only half skiing- the remainder being comprised of the constant anxious observation and planning necessary to mitigate avalanche threats. There was a point where I reminisced about some of my most enjoyable moments in the backcountry and realized that they coincided with those times when my group had been getting most lax in its risk assessment.
I'm no longer in Colorado, but it's been a rough winter down there- there have been 5 deaths in the spots around Silverton that I used to frequent.
posted by droro at 8:32 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've also learned to love skiing uphill, which usually makes me sweat so hard that I forget it is winter. But perhaps the biggest difference is the snow. Undisturbed snow that has been left to settle for a week or so takes on a fast, lively feel; such that making rapid turns on it could be compared with bouncing on a trampoline. In resorts, the fresh powder is slashed apart by mobs long before it can attain such maturity.
However all of these positive attributes weren't enough to keep me from giving up the sport. As others have mentioned backcountry skiing is only half skiing- the remainder being comprised of the constant anxious observation and planning necessary to mitigate avalanche threats. There was a point where I reminisced about some of my most enjoyable moments in the backcountry and realized that they coincided with those times when my group had been getting most lax in its risk assessment.
I'm no longer in Colorado, but it's been a rough winter down there- there have been 5 deaths in the spots around Silverton that I used to frequent.
posted by droro at 8:32 PM on February 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
This terrifying video was posted on IG today (Saturday), in the Uintahs.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:37 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:37 PM on February 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
My experience in avalanche-prone terrain is vanishingly small.
My experience with what the author calls "wicked learning" (you learn, but please don't make mistakes) is significant.
Most importantly, though -- and what most draws me into the themes of this article -- is my experience with "wicked learning" with those who are struggling to grasp, for themselves, what 'wicked learning' is. In that scenario, all your technical knowledge, all your experience, all your self-assuredness mean nothing compared to the empathy you can share.
From my lens, unpacking this interaction is everything:
I grew up as a civilian kid in a town next to a military base. Looming over our school was a watertower on the base with the slogan "Mission First, People Always". Retrofit that to this sort of backcountry adventure: "technical knowledge first, people always"? Clunky, but I'd subscribe.
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 1:02 AM on February 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
My experience with what the author calls "wicked learning" (you learn, but please don't make mistakes) is significant.
Most importantly, though -- and what most draws me into the themes of this article -- is my experience with "wicked learning" with those who are struggling to grasp, for themselves, what 'wicked learning' is. In that scenario, all your technical knowledge, all your experience, all your self-assuredness mean nothing compared to the empathy you can share.
From my lens, unpacking this interaction is everything:
I told him again — because I didn’t want to recreate past experiences in which, despite my detailed and increasingly exaggerated descriptions of my inabilities, a man took me up a mountain I could not, without risking injury or a total loss of affection for him, get down — that I was essentially a beginner. Mike again reassured me: I’d be fine.As a group leader, I've done multi-pitch climbs with folks where English is not their first language. I've spent long stretches of time wedged into a slot cave behind people who started to get a bit cagey. I've stood on mountain ridges, storm clouds visible, second-guessing our plan for the nite's campsite. In absolutely none of those situations did "you'll be fine" pass as an appropriate or acceptable response.
I grew up as a civilian kid in a town next to a military base. Looming over our school was a watertower on the base with the slogan "Mission First, People Always". Retrofit that to this sort of backcountry adventure: "technical knowledge first, people always"? Clunky, but I'd subscribe.
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 1:02 AM on February 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Great and thought provoking article. I don’t have much to add, really, but I’m glad I read it.
posted by obfuscation at 6:00 AM on February 7, 2021
posted by obfuscation at 6:00 AM on February 7, 2021
Eagle County, town of Eagle release avalanche victims’ names — With heavy hearts, community is mourning the loss of Seth Bossung, Andy Jessen and Adam Palmer; Vail Daily, Tom Lotshaw, February 3, 2021:
posted by cenoxo at 6:37 AM on February 7, 2021
...Bossung, Jessen and Palmer were among the four local backcountry skiers caught and buried by a large avalanche Monday afternoon in an area known as “The Nose” between Silverton and Ophir. Other members of the group not caught by the avalanche were able to find and dig out one of the four men, who was recovered with minor injuries. Bossung, Jessen and Palmer remained missing.Preliminary report at the Colorado Avalanche Information Center, 2021/02/01 - Colorado - The Nose, Middle Fork Mineral Creek southeast of Ophir., 2021/02/04 Ethan Greene - Forecaster, CAIC.
Search and rescue operations started Monday evening and continued late into the night. They resumed Tuesday morning but were hampered by dangerous conditions. After a 12-hour day for ground teams on Wednesday, San Juan County officials announced they successfully extracted the three missing skiers, who were buried in 20-plus feet of avalanche debris. All three were wearing avalanche beacons, which helped searchers locate them....
posted by cenoxo at 6:37 AM on February 7, 2021
The social dynamics of (some people who do) back country skiing seem almost designed to encourage accidents.
There's a huge amount of glorification of the joys of fresh powder. So if there's fresh snow and good weather one day, there's real time pressure to locate the best bits before everyone else trashes them. Who knows, it might be the last chance this season!
There's cachet in being the person who can find the fresh pow, who can lead a group to someplace they wouldn't have found or skiied otherwise.
Once the whole group has got ready and hiked out at length to wherever, everybody is completely high on anticipation and the sheer joy of being up in the spectacular mountains in the sunshine.
By this point, it's really really socially difficult to be the one person saying "I don't think this is safe", especially when that's mixed up a bit with "actually this seems to be above my skill level" or "I don't have the confidence to ski this" - a situation that the article does a good job of conveying. The person worrying that it's not safe is likely to be less experienced and skilled than the gung ho brigade, so less likely to feel confident in their judgement and less likely to be listened to. Any ski school will tell you that they frequently get calls to go rescue someone who's been persuaded into terrain they can't handle by their dickhead friends or boyfriend who said it would be easy.
You might think from the article that the situation described was kind of artificial or unusual in some way, but it really isn't.
Also, what groups of tourist skiers do in resort during a snowstorm is: watching videos sponsored by Red Bull, shot from helicopters, in which insane people drop down sheer faces and leave a beautiful single track down the mountain. So the next day when the sun comes out, they're already primed to go cut tracks somewhere they shouldn't.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:13 AM on February 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
There's a huge amount of glorification of the joys of fresh powder. So if there's fresh snow and good weather one day, there's real time pressure to locate the best bits before everyone else trashes them. Who knows, it might be the last chance this season!
There's cachet in being the person who can find the fresh pow, who can lead a group to someplace they wouldn't have found or skiied otherwise.
Once the whole group has got ready and hiked out at length to wherever, everybody is completely high on anticipation and the sheer joy of being up in the spectacular mountains in the sunshine.
By this point, it's really really socially difficult to be the one person saying "I don't think this is safe", especially when that's mixed up a bit with "actually this seems to be above my skill level" or "I don't have the confidence to ski this" - a situation that the article does a good job of conveying. The person worrying that it's not safe is likely to be less experienced and skilled than the gung ho brigade, so less likely to feel confident in their judgement and less likely to be listened to. Any ski school will tell you that they frequently get calls to go rescue someone who's been persuaded into terrain they can't handle by their dickhead friends or boyfriend who said it would be easy.
You might think from the article that the situation described was kind of artificial or unusual in some way, but it really isn't.
Also, what groups of tourist skiers do in resort during a snowstorm is: watching videos sponsored by Red Bull, shot from helicopters, in which insane people drop down sheer faces and leave a beautiful single track down the mountain. So the next day when the sun comes out, they're already primed to go cut tracks somewhere they shouldn't.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:13 AM on February 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
This terrifying video was posted on IG today (Saturday), in the Uintahs.
Just like in the article with beacons not being switched on, the guy was wearing avalanche tech (a special backpack) but hadn't turned it on.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:35 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Just like in the article with beacons not being switched on, the guy was wearing avalanche tech (a special backpack) but hadn't turned it on.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:35 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
the guy was wearing avalanche tech (a special backpack) but hadn't turned it on.
And it looks like those run over a thousand dollars new?
Step 1. Make sure the expensive safety equipment is turned on and functional.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:51 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
And it looks like those run over a thousand dollars new?
Step 1. Make sure the expensive safety equipment is turned on and functional.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:51 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
30 years of backcountry skiing, 30+ days a season for the last ten, AST-2, CAA professional level one... the avalanche doesn’t know you are the expert (another Tremperism), I got buried waist deep four years ago. Got complacent over a few seasons, but was lucky.
It’s not just glorification. Skiing steep (>30 degrees), deep snow is actually glorious. It’s fast, it’s “surfy”, it’s like some kind of flying. People pay thousands of dollars a day to access it by helicopter but the rest of us can get it for free if we’re willing to hike and assume risk. If you’re experienced, and humble, keenly observe everything around you, soak up all available information and communicate well with your partners you’ll build yourself a model of risk which, if relatively low, you will happily assume to ski great snow and big beautiful lines. You’ll tell yourself: this has some risk, but it’s worth it. Until you get caught or a friend dies, and then it’s absolutely not.
posted by bumpkin at 9:02 AM on February 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
It’s not just glorification. Skiing steep (>30 degrees), deep snow is actually glorious. It’s fast, it’s “surfy”, it’s like some kind of flying. People pay thousands of dollars a day to access it by helicopter but the rest of us can get it for free if we’re willing to hike and assume risk. If you’re experienced, and humble, keenly observe everything around you, soak up all available information and communicate well with your partners you’ll build yourself a model of risk which, if relatively low, you will happily assume to ski great snow and big beautiful lines. You’ll tell yourself: this has some risk, but it’s worth it. Until you get caught or a friend dies, and then it’s absolutely not.
posted by bumpkin at 9:02 AM on February 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
So I'm a flatlander (St. Louis) who went skiing one time in college with "friends" who left me on the bunny slopes so they could backcountry all day. Needless to say, it left a bad taste in my mouth for skiing, and for rich assholes.
But skiing should be So. Much. My. Jam. Any time it snows (dustings only, any more) I'm out running in it for hours. But I'm no where near decent slopes, and don't know anyone who skis. My wife hates the cold, so we can't go on a trip together for learning...how does a middle aged guy learn to ski and find his people?
posted by notsnot at 9:57 AM on February 7, 2021
But skiing should be So. Much. My. Jam. Any time it snows (dustings only, any more) I'm out running in it for hours. But I'm no where near decent slopes, and don't know anyone who skis. My wife hates the cold, so we can't go on a trip together for learning...how does a middle aged guy learn to ski and find his people?
posted by notsnot at 9:57 AM on February 7, 2021
This article, and all the links and videos it led to ... all fascinating, all stuff I’d never known. Wow. Thanks.
posted by anshuman at 11:56 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by anshuman at 11:56 AM on February 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Terrifying video from the next village just last week: https://www.24heures.ch/coulee-de-neige-inondation-et-eboulement-249808354415. That slide probably came off the massif and down a natural bowl, after heavy rain, going about 3km down to the edge of the village. For anyone curious the village name translates as "The Devils' Place".
We were in Zinal last weekend. Most of the high level lifts on the steeper slopes were closed as the avalanche risk was still up at 4 (out of 5) and we could hear them bombing on the other side of the resort. The scale is misleading as you would think 3 is so-so/average but it actually means "considerable". 4 is "evacuation of populated areas" level risk.
Anyway, despite the risk people were traversing across the tops to get to fresh steep powder on the closed parts of the resort. On faces that you could see sections had slid out the previous day. They could *see* that hitting that slope was a coin toss, yet still they were doing it.
posted by lawrencium at 12:49 PM on February 7, 2021
We were in Zinal last weekend. Most of the high level lifts on the steeper slopes were closed as the avalanche risk was still up at 4 (out of 5) and we could hear them bombing on the other side of the resort. The scale is misleading as you would think 3 is so-so/average but it actually means "considerable". 4 is "evacuation of populated areas" level risk.
Anyway, despite the risk people were traversing across the tops to get to fresh steep powder on the closed parts of the resort. On faces that you could see sections had slid out the previous day. They could *see* that hitting that slope was a coin toss, yet still they were doing it.
posted by lawrencium at 12:49 PM on February 7, 2021
I read this article last year, and could have sworn I had seen it discussed on metafilter, but I guess I imagined that...
I thought the exact same thing, but I cannot find it via googling. I cannot imagine where else I would have read it though...
how does a middle aged guy learn to ski and find his people?
This is going to be fairly difficult to do from St Louis imo. I've helped a few people in your situation learn to ski, but it's an expensive, multiyear process where during normal visits we'd go ski for a day or two. After a few years of annual ski trips they were reasonably competent. There are tricks to make skiing cheap in terms of lift access, instruction, and gear which Im happy to explain, but they only work if you're reasonably local to a hill and I don't know of any way to make the travel and lodging less expensive. I also have no experience with indoor winter parks which are apparently a thing now.
Here's what I'd suggest:
- If you have a friend/family within an hour or two drive of a ski hill, go visit them and see if they want to go ski.
- Sign up for an adult lesson or two, probably half day morning lessons. Usually this will have a discounted/restricted lift ticket with it too. Similarly, if you plan this in the summer/fall you'll probably save some $.
- Rent the equipment you'd need off the mountain the day before you head up. This will save you both money and time.
- Brown bag a lunch in a backpack or locker
- Do your AM lesson, then practice whatever you learned until lunch. Meet your friends/family at lunch if you've got them, and go for a ride or two together after lunch.
- Repeat as frequently as possible.
If you live closer there are weekly adult lessons available at some hills and season long rentals that are much cheaper. Also the second hand stores will have a more useful collection of equipment to pick over. Don't buy any big ticket items in season if you can help it (everything is 30% off in the summer), and adjust outerwear based on the location (e.g. PNW is wet, Colorado is cold, etc).
In terms of finding your people, while the fancy ski resorts you've heard of are filled with obnoxious rich tourist assholes, a lot of mountain towns have more blue collar hills which are cheaper and have a way more laid back vibe. Look for smaller, lower trafficked hills that maybe are not associated with the major season pass conglomerates. There are cons to this obviously in terms of skiing options and possibly cost, but those will likely be made up in enjoyment and cheaper lodging options.
Skiing will be easier to learn than snowboarding, and if you're travelling for it it's what I'd suggest. Feel free to memail if you have a specific location or questions, I'm more than happy to answer at greater length.
posted by yeahwhatever at 4:29 PM on February 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
I thought the exact same thing, but I cannot find it via googling. I cannot imagine where else I would have read it though...
how does a middle aged guy learn to ski and find his people?
This is going to be fairly difficult to do from St Louis imo. I've helped a few people in your situation learn to ski, but it's an expensive, multiyear process where during normal visits we'd go ski for a day or two. After a few years of annual ski trips they were reasonably competent. There are tricks to make skiing cheap in terms of lift access, instruction, and gear which Im happy to explain, but they only work if you're reasonably local to a hill and I don't know of any way to make the travel and lodging less expensive. I also have no experience with indoor winter parks which are apparently a thing now.
Here's what I'd suggest:
- If you have a friend/family within an hour or two drive of a ski hill, go visit them and see if they want to go ski.
- Sign up for an adult lesson or two, probably half day morning lessons. Usually this will have a discounted/restricted lift ticket with it too. Similarly, if you plan this in the summer/fall you'll probably save some $.
- Rent the equipment you'd need off the mountain the day before you head up. This will save you both money and time.
- Brown bag a lunch in a backpack or locker
- Do your AM lesson, then practice whatever you learned until lunch. Meet your friends/family at lunch if you've got them, and go for a ride or two together after lunch.
- Repeat as frequently as possible.
If you live closer there are weekly adult lessons available at some hills and season long rentals that are much cheaper. Also the second hand stores will have a more useful collection of equipment to pick over. Don't buy any big ticket items in season if you can help it (everything is 30% off in the summer), and adjust outerwear based on the location (e.g. PNW is wet, Colorado is cold, etc).
In terms of finding your people, while the fancy ski resorts you've heard of are filled with obnoxious rich tourist assholes, a lot of mountain towns have more blue collar hills which are cheaper and have a way more laid back vibe. Look for smaller, lower trafficked hills that maybe are not associated with the major season pass conglomerates. There are cons to this obviously in terms of skiing options and possibly cost, but those will likely be made up in enjoyment and cheaper lodging options.
Skiing will be easier to learn than snowboarding, and if you're travelling for it it's what I'd suggest. Feel free to memail if you have a specific location or questions, I'm more than happy to answer at greater length.
posted by yeahwhatever at 4:29 PM on February 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
Spring comes earlier due to global warming. So there is a warm day, warm enough to melt the top layer of snow, it turns to ice at night. Next day it snows a foot, over ice, and avalanche danger is happening. Four more people died in SLC today from back country skiing in this new reality. These were locals in a canyon, Millcreek, that is not a ski resort, four other back country skiers dug themselves out, and then dug out the four people who didn't make it.
posted by Oyéah at 8:55 PM on February 7, 2021
posted by Oyéah at 8:55 PM on February 7, 2021
I remember back when I was a little kid seeing an avalanche at Yosemite, somewhere near El Capitan if I remember correctly. Snow had piled up and formed a sort of shelf at the top, which broke off while I was looking at it. I thought it was just a small amount, until I saw the snow hit and absolutely smash a stand of large pine trees into a snarl of broken branches and snapped trunks. More of a vertical drop than a slide down a slope, but the sheer force was just incredible, especially as I had nothing to compare it to. I lived at the time in the San Francisco bay area, so snow itself was special, but seeing that avalanche was literally awesome.
posted by Blackanvil at 10:10 PM on February 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Blackanvil at 10:10 PM on February 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
We had a group of 4 people die a few miles from me in the past week. All 8 people in the party were experienced and prepared with the right equipment but unfortunately all were caught in the avalanche.
posted by ShakeyJake at 12:49 PM on February 8, 2021
posted by ShakeyJake at 12:49 PM on February 8, 2021
The Utah avalanche has been mentioned a few times in this thread and the background details of the four killed released today is heartbreaking. All in their 20's, all seemed to be experienced outdoors enthusiasts, and all genuinely sound like great folks - including a critical care nurse who'd just taken time off to help her younger sister through brain tumor surgery a week earlier.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:07 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:07 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
New England death on 2/1.
I would love to hear more about how people do risk assessment and the red flags around this.
(Avalanches aren’t a thing in MN, and my dangerous sports have other warning signs: cold weather running and open water swim.)
posted by gregglind at 4:57 PM on February 8, 2021
I would love to hear more about how people do risk assessment and the red flags around this.
(Avalanches aren’t a thing in MN, and my dangerous sports have other warning signs: cold weather running and open water swim.)
posted by gregglind at 4:57 PM on February 8, 2021
more formal analysis. I would love to here what experts here think.
posted by gregglind at 5:32 PM on February 8, 2021
posted by gregglind at 5:32 PM on February 8, 2021
how does a middle aged guy learn to ski and find his people
Skiing is one of those things you have to do over and over to be good at so the only real answer is move to a ski town and get a season pass. I say this as someone who snowboarded two to four times a year for maybe five years running before realizing that I was never going to get much better than mediocre at that pace and basically giving up. You could even conceivably get decent if you moved to somewhere within a 3-4 hour drive of a resort, ideally got membership in a ski cabin, and left for the mountains at 5 am every Saturday morning.
posted by slidell at 7:26 PM on February 8, 2021
Skiing is one of those things you have to do over and over to be good at so the only real answer is move to a ski town and get a season pass. I say this as someone who snowboarded two to four times a year for maybe five years running before realizing that I was never going to get much better than mediocre at that pace and basically giving up. You could even conceivably get decent if you moved to somewhere within a 3-4 hour drive of a resort, ideally got membership in a ski cabin, and left for the mountains at 5 am every Saturday morning.
posted by slidell at 7:26 PM on February 8, 2021
Re: formal analysis and “experts on here” — that analysis is expert analysis. Their conclusion is the conclusion everyone will eventually work out after enough time in the mountains:
You can do everything right and still die.
You can do everything wrong and still live.
The odds are just better if you do things right. But the mountains and mountain weather don’t care. Forgays was an experienced skier. A partner might have kept him alive — or it might have got a second person killed. Low danger does not mean no danger (the isothermal spring snowpack? That’s what we learn to ski on in California backcountry and it’s what gets Californians killed when they move, or sometimes before, as on Mt Tom a few years back). The analysis is excellent and I enjoyed reading it... as much as anyone can enjoy reading about a nice guy who choked to death under 13’ of snow, that is.
posted by apathy at 7:30 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
You can do everything right and still die.
You can do everything wrong and still live.
The odds are just better if you do things right. But the mountains and mountain weather don’t care. Forgays was an experienced skier. A partner might have kept him alive — or it might have got a second person killed. Low danger does not mean no danger (the isothermal spring snowpack? That’s what we learn to ski on in California backcountry and it’s what gets Californians killed when they move, or sometimes before, as on Mt Tom a few years back). The analysis is excellent and I enjoyed reading it... as much as anyone can enjoy reading about a nice guy who choked to death under 13’ of snow, that is.
posted by apathy at 7:30 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
We just had the deadliest week of avalanches in the US in more than a century
At least 15 people were killed in avalanches from Jan. 31 to Feb. 6 in six states.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:32 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
At least 15 people were killed in avalanches from Jan. 31 to Feb. 6 in six states.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:32 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Can I nth this comment a million times? The Mt. Washington Avalanche center's write up of the search is pretty damn good and shows that you truly do need to be able to self rescue, leave a detailed plan with friends/in your car and make sure that you don't get complacent.
You can do everything right and still die.
That is a risk you walk into mountains (hopefully) understanding and accepting. The weather patterns this winter across the US have been unusual, and we'll only see more of this in the coming years with a warming planet. There have been amazing improvements in gear and forecasting in the last decade, which make it extremely easy to rely on the gear and assume your little rescue button will result in a rescue, and not a recovery.
posted by larthegreat at 6:56 AM on February 9, 2021
You can do everything right and still die.
That is a risk you walk into mountains (hopefully) understanding and accepting. The weather patterns this winter across the US have been unusual, and we'll only see more of this in the coming years with a warming planet. There have been amazing improvements in gear and forecasting in the last decade, which make it extremely easy to rely on the gear and assume your little rescue button will result in a rescue, and not a recovery.
posted by larthegreat at 6:56 AM on February 9, 2021
(hit post too fast and wanted to mention these quotes) From the analysis itself:
"A skier of Forgays’s talent and experience, and many other skiers, would likely have considered the conditions on that day to be variable and challenging which is par for the course for skiing in the Presidential Range in mid-winter. His choice to ski that day seems informed and intentional, and his past ski missions with friends reflected an enthusiasm for any sort of skiing adventure."
...
"Accidents like this serve as a stark reminder to us all of the role that luck can play in successful outcomes in our backcountry endeavors. Ian Forgays had many years of experience in this terrain and, according to texts sent on Sunday, planned “to move slowly and intentionally” knowing that some lines there are “rowdier than others”. By all accounts, he was a very accomplished skier with many of the steepest lines in the Whites under his belt."
The four skiers in Utah were similarly experienced and confident in their knowledge of the terrain.
posted by larthegreat at 7:10 AM on February 9, 2021
"A skier of Forgays’s talent and experience, and many other skiers, would likely have considered the conditions on that day to be variable and challenging which is par for the course for skiing in the Presidential Range in mid-winter. His choice to ski that day seems informed and intentional, and his past ski missions with friends reflected an enthusiasm for any sort of skiing adventure."
...
"Accidents like this serve as a stark reminder to us all of the role that luck can play in successful outcomes in our backcountry endeavors. Ian Forgays had many years of experience in this terrain and, according to texts sent on Sunday, planned “to move slowly and intentionally” knowing that some lines there are “rowdier than others”. By all accounts, he was a very accomplished skier with many of the steepest lines in the Whites under his belt."
The four skiers in Utah were similarly experienced and confident in their knowledge of the terrain.
posted by larthegreat at 7:10 AM on February 9, 2021
The four skiers in Utah were similarly experienced and confident in their knowledge of the terrain.
And to your point on luck, initial reports are the two groups of skiers in Utah were both ascending up and it's possible neither were the cause of the avalanche. Wrong place, wrong time. And some details emerging on one of the skiers who managed to hold onto a tree as the avalanche passed over him and then find and dig out two others.
“He ... grabbed a tree and held on for dear life while all the while the avalanche washed over him and buried everyone else,” Hardesty said. “And at that time, to see this occur and then have the wherewithal to go acquire the [beacon] signals and do not one but two full and deep burials and rescue two lives, is amazing.”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:26 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
And to your point on luck, initial reports are the two groups of skiers in Utah were both ascending up and it's possible neither were the cause of the avalanche. Wrong place, wrong time. And some details emerging on one of the skiers who managed to hold onto a tree as the avalanche passed over him and then find and dig out two others.
“He ... grabbed a tree and held on for dear life while all the while the avalanche washed over him and buried everyone else,” Hardesty said. “And at that time, to see this occur and then have the wherewithal to go acquire the [beacon] signals and do not one but two full and deep burials and rescue two lives, is amazing.”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:26 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
how does a middle aged guy learn to ski and find his people?
In addition to advice above, if you live (or can get to) somewhere flat-ish that still has enough snow for it, you might consider cross country skiing. If your landscape is totally flat, it's a bit boring, but you don't need a lot of topology to have a nice time. Cross country resorts are in a different price class than downhill skiing is and either way as long as you have access to the equipment and a snow-covered trail of some kind, you can ski cross-country.
If that's no easier for you to find than the conditions for downhill, then this advice isn't useful.
The ski-handling skills you learn on cross country skills will not make you a downhill skier. You'll need lessons all the same. But I think the early stages of learning downhill skiing go faster and easier if you're already comfortable on some kind of skis. That was how I learned - I skied cross country for a long time before attempting downhill. The techniques involved are different, but there's something about learning how to move with big planks strapped to your feet that does carry over.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:54 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
In addition to advice above, if you live (or can get to) somewhere flat-ish that still has enough snow for it, you might consider cross country skiing. If your landscape is totally flat, it's a bit boring, but you don't need a lot of topology to have a nice time. Cross country resorts are in a different price class than downhill skiing is and either way as long as you have access to the equipment and a snow-covered trail of some kind, you can ski cross-country.
If that's no easier for you to find than the conditions for downhill, then this advice isn't useful.
The ski-handling skills you learn on cross country skills will not make you a downhill skier. You'll need lessons all the same. But I think the early stages of learning downhill skiing go faster and easier if you're already comfortable on some kind of skis. That was how I learned - I skied cross country for a long time before attempting downhill. The techniques involved are different, but there's something about learning how to move with big planks strapped to your feet that does carry over.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:54 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
The final avalanche report on the Utah tragedy is out. It includes a lot of technical information, but also a video of the avalanche site that gives a sense of the scale. The skiers had picked that site because they believed it was safer from avalanche.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:13 AM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:13 AM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Wow. Those avalanche reports are something else. My heart goes out to the people who lost loved ones.
And what about this story? "I remember saying aloud, 'I am NOT going to die here today, pull yourself together Todd!'"
posted by Spokane at 11:39 PM on February 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
And what about this story? "I remember saying aloud, 'I am NOT going to die here today, pull yourself together Todd!'"
posted by Spokane at 11:39 PM on February 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
SFGate, February 17: 'A stupid mistake': Skiers, snowboarders trigger multiple avalanches in Tahoe:
Last Friday started as one of those perfect winter days in Tahoe. A storm dropped about a foot of new snow during the night, and in the morning, the sky cleared.posted by Lexica at 9:00 AM on February 17, 2021
By the end of the day, however, the Sierra Avalanche Center had received numerous reports of avalanches. Some slides occurred naturally; however, many were triggered by backcountry skiers and snowboarders.
That day, the snowpack had several big issues lurking that were created by the overnight storm. First thing in the morning, the Sierra Avalanche Center posted its forecast, a daily briefing that gives backcountry skiers and snowboarders (as well as people who drive snowmobiles) lifesaving knowledge about what’s happening in the snowpack and the weather. The center noted that storm slabs — dense blocks of snow that build up during a blizzard and are prone to fracturing and sliding — were one of its big concerns. On Friday, the center rated the avalanche danger as “considerable,” which meant that conditions were unstable and skiers and snowboarders were likely to trigger avalanches.
An Unforgiving Winter — Avalanche fatalities nationwide this winter have already surpassed yearly averages, while the increasing ages of victims reveals experience does not necessarily equal expertise, Flathead Beacon [Kalispell, Montana], Maggie Dresser, February 24, 2021:
posted by cenoxo at 10:42 AM on February 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
...[59-year-old snowmobiler Dave] Cano is one of 31 nationwide avalanche fatalities this winter, as of Feb. 22, a number that has already surpassed the yearly average of 27.5. Of those 31 deaths, more than 20 of the victims were over the age of 40, including Cano, according to West Glacier-based U.S. Geological Survey physical scientist Erich Peitzsch.More in the article. Older and bolder, but not wiser?
This year’s avalanche fatalities further support a recent study conducted by Peitzsch, Whitefish-based psychologist and avalanche educator Sara Boilen and other avalanche professionals, which concluded that avalanche victims are getting older.
According to the study, “How old are the people who die in avalanches? A look into the ages of avalanche victims in the United States (1950-2018),” [PDF] published in the Journal of Outdoor Recreation and Tourism [link], a majority of deaths occurred with backcountry users in the age 30-39 and 40-49 brackets since 1990.
“With the data we had, we couldn’t tease out why the median age increases,” Peitzsch said. “Is it because the population is getting older in general? Is it because people are settling down later? Who knows? We can speculate but we really can’t say.”...
posted by cenoxo at 10:42 AM on February 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
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I ski tour. In fact tomorrow I'm going up with my family, including my 9- and 12- year olds to a cabin for 2 nights. I wouldn't call myself very experienced, but I have a good 50 or so days under my belt, some quick training from 20 years ago, and the 3 day AST1 course. That course had a lot of similarities to the one the author took, but we talked a LOT about decision making. It was probably the primary focus of the whole course, along with some snowpack analysis and tranceiver work.
I think there is definitely some "I took the course so I'm safe" thinking out there. But that's why you still need to choose your partners carefully (as guide once told me: "I have friends, and then I have friends I'll go touring with"), plan your trip out, and generally be aware, thoughtful and considered in your choices.
And this quote is bang on: Nature doesn’t kill people with avalanches. People kill people with avalanches
posted by sauril at 11:30 AM on February 6, 2021 [11 favorites]