D-Day (the other one)
February 15, 2021 4:05 AM Subscribe
On February 15, 1971, the currencies of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland finally went decimal.
Both countries moved to a system based on units of 10. Under the old system, which had been in place for hundreds of years, there were 12 pence in a shilling and 20 shillings, or 240 pence, in a pound.
In the UK, some of the old pre-decimal coins continued to circulate until the early 1990s.
Both countries moved to a system based on units of 10. Under the old system, which had been in place for hundreds of years, there were 12 pence in a shilling and 20 shillings, or 240 pence, in a pound.
In the UK, some of the old pre-decimal coins continued to circulate until the early 1990s.
Decimalisation was blamed for a sharp rise in inflation, where things that had cost (e.g.) 3d quickly increased in price to 3p, an increase of 140%. That was followed by the oil shocks which increased the price of energy, and entry to the Common Market (EU) which increased the price of food. The poorer half of the country certainly felt that someone had a hand in their pocket.
posted by StephenB at 5:05 AM on February 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by StephenB at 5:05 AM on February 15, 2021 [9 favorites]
It seems like now would be a good time to dump some of the smaller coins. I'm aware the only justification for keeping coppers from the last review was charitable giving (and was really as Tory olds don't deal well with change). Am I misreading how little cash people are using now in the UK? I have literally handled less than £250 since last March.
posted by biffa at 5:08 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 5:08 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Am I misreading how little cash people are using now in the UK?
I literally have a pile of coins in a box on my desk from the start of 2020. I used to dip into it everyday. Not been touched since the first lockdown. I've been carrying the same couple of notes in my back pocket since then too. I've used cash precisely once in 12 months.
Charitable giving has largely evolved into a mix of monthly direct debit, rounding up of card payments, and Gift Aid. Can't remember being asked for change in a bucket at all in the past 10 years.
posted by pipeski at 5:14 AM on February 15, 2021
I literally have a pile of coins in a box on my desk from the start of 2020. I used to dip into it everyday. Not been touched since the first lockdown. I've been carrying the same couple of notes in my back pocket since then too. I've used cash precisely once in 12 months.
Charitable giving has largely evolved into a mix of monthly direct debit, rounding up of card payments, and Gift Aid. Can't remember being asked for change in a bucket at all in the past 10 years.
posted by pipeski at 5:14 AM on February 15, 2021
biffa: "(and was really as Tory olds don't deal well with change)"
You'd think not dealing well with change would be a vote in favor of eliminating coppers...
posted by chavenet at 5:14 AM on February 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
You'd think not dealing well with change would be a vote in favor of eliminating coppers...
posted by chavenet at 5:14 AM on February 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
The review only reported in May 2019, concluding the UK should keep the shrapnel, along with drivel about maintaining "freedom" to spend your money.
posted by biffa at 5:25 AM on February 15, 2021
posted by biffa at 5:25 AM on February 15, 2021
In the UK, some of the old pre-decimal coins continued to circulate until the early 1990s.
Same in Ireland - you'd still find shillings and florins in your change sometimes until they shrank the 5p and 10p coins in 1992/3. Ireland kept the design of those two coins the same pre- and post- decimalisation, though, just changing the denomination on them.
I'm too young to have lived through decimalisation, but I did experience the switch to the Euro in Ireland. At the time there was a lot of suspicion that shops etc., were using the switch to jack up prices, and I think there were a lot of people remembering the earlier change. (At the Euro switchover, prices certainly went up slightly rather than down, but half the problem was that the punt was worth €1.21 and people are bad at mental maths!)
posted by scorbet at 5:41 AM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Same in Ireland - you'd still find shillings and florins in your change sometimes until they shrank the 5p and 10p coins in 1992/3. Ireland kept the design of those two coins the same pre- and post- decimalisation, though, just changing the denomination on them.
I'm too young to have lived through decimalisation, but I did experience the switch to the Euro in Ireland. At the time there was a lot of suspicion that shops etc., were using the switch to jack up prices, and I think there were a lot of people remembering the earlier change. (At the Euro switchover, prices certainly went up slightly rather than down, but half the problem was that the punt was worth €1.21 and people are bad at mental maths!)
posted by scorbet at 5:41 AM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Lindybeige did an hour-long video on the history of British coinage. He made the point that having 240 pennies to the pound meant that you could easily split money several ways because there are so many factors. If you've got a pound and want to split it between 3 or 6 people it's easier in old money.
Guineas (21 shillings) were just stupid though, originally created because of fluctuations in the relative cost of silver and gold.
He also claims the abbreviation L.S.D. for pounds, shillings and pence goes back to Livres, Solidi and Denarii from when there were still Roman coins in circulation (though not quite Roman times).
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:43 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Guineas (21 shillings) were just stupid though, originally created because of fluctuations in the relative cost of silver and gold.
He also claims the abbreviation L.S.D. for pounds, shillings and pence goes back to Livres, Solidi and Denarii from when there were still Roman coins in circulation (though not quite Roman times).
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:43 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I literally have a pile of coins in a box on my desk from the start of 2020. I used to dip into it everyday. Not been touched since the first lockdown. I've been carrying the same couple of notes in my back pocket since then too. I've used cash precisely once in 12 months.
I'm on the other side of the Atlantic, but that matches my experience. I haven't been spending any cash, so I haven't been bringing home any change to add to the change jar, nor have I been pulling from it for bus fares or small purchases.
I can remember on trips to the UK when I was young getting change in pre-decimal coins. That has to have been a hard transition for a lot of people.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on February 15, 2021
I'm on the other side of the Atlantic, but that matches my experience. I haven't been spending any cash, so I haven't been bringing home any change to add to the change jar, nor have I been pulling from it for bus fares or small purchases.
I can remember on trips to the UK when I was young getting change in pre-decimal coins. That has to have been a hard transition for a lot of people.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on February 15, 2021
Britain adopted the metric system in 1965.
Mostly.
Some considered it Idolatrous.
posted by adamvasco at 6:53 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mostly.
Some considered it Idolatrous.
posted by adamvasco at 6:53 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Guineas (21 shillings) were just stupid though, originally created because of fluctuations in the relative cost of silver and gold.
I learned of this distinction of a guinea vs a pound thanks to the very good TV show Harlots, who seemed to distinguish along the lines of "rich people spend guineas" and "everyone else spends pounds" -- but most things didn't cost a pound, by inflation a pre-decimal pound would be like $100 today right?
Britain adopted the metric system in 1965. Mostly.
We also watch the very good British show Salvage Hunters: The Restorers and the first time they brought out a 'American' tape measure and marked something off in inches we were aghast!
So I guess what I'm saying is that pirating British TV is opening my eyes to all the ways Brits count things.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:26 AM on February 15, 2021
I learned of this distinction of a guinea vs a pound thanks to the very good TV show Harlots, who seemed to distinguish along the lines of "rich people spend guineas" and "everyone else spends pounds" -- but most things didn't cost a pound, by inflation a pre-decimal pound would be like $100 today right?
Britain adopted the metric system in 1965. Mostly.
We also watch the very good British show Salvage Hunters: The Restorers and the first time they brought out a 'American' tape measure and marked something off in inches we were aghast!
So I guess what I'm saying is that pirating British TV is opening my eyes to all the ways Brits count things.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:26 AM on February 15, 2021
This was a mind-boggling difficult and courageous adjustment and just as an Anglophile tourist, I am in awe.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:31 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:31 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
but most things didn't cost a pound, by inflation a pre-decimal pound would be like $100 today right?
Depends when it was, we are talking about a long time here. A 1970 pound is worth £15.82, while a 1720 pound is about £211 today. The wikipedia page suggests that guineas were largely used for luxury goods, racehorses, tailored suits, etc, (where the price was high) so you weren't talking about stupid fractions of a pound. It also says that listing in guineas made things seem cheaper.
It also says the name came from the metal used in the coins originally came from Guinea.
posted by biffa at 7:36 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Depends when it was, we are talking about a long time here. A 1970 pound is worth £15.82, while a 1720 pound is about £211 today. The wikipedia page suggests that guineas were largely used for luxury goods, racehorses, tailored suits, etc, (where the price was high) so you weren't talking about stupid fractions of a pound. It also says that listing in guineas made things seem cheaper.
It also says the name came from the metal used in the coins originally came from Guinea.
posted by biffa at 7:36 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
When I was a kid in the 90s, my dad gave me extra math homework using a British textbook from the 1950s, and all of the monetary problems used this infernal system (along with Imperial measurements for every other quantity). As much as I hated it at the time, I must admit that I got *quite* a bit more handy with algebra than many of my American peers a the time.
posted by belarius at 8:32 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by belarius at 8:32 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Britain adopted the metric system in 1965. Mostly.
My version is metric for temperature (climate and oven), most food recipes, most times I need to measure the length of objects, food product sizes. Imperial for road distances, height and weight of people and their clothing-related measurements, baking recipes I know by heart or are by Delia Smith. I have a decent sense of how they approximately interchange (my desk is both approx 4ftx2ft and actually 1200mmx600mm; 1lb is about 450g and 1oz is about 28g) but can't be doing with adding up fractions all the time so mainly prefer metric.
posted by plonkee at 8:35 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
My version is metric for temperature (climate and oven), most food recipes, most times I need to measure the length of objects, food product sizes. Imperial for road distances, height and weight of people and their clothing-related measurements, baking recipes I know by heart or are by Delia Smith. I have a decent sense of how they approximately interchange (my desk is both approx 4ftx2ft and actually 1200mmx600mm; 1lb is about 450g and 1oz is about 28g) but can't be doing with adding up fractions all the time so mainly prefer metric.
posted by plonkee at 8:35 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Decimalisation was blamed for a sharp rise in inflation, where things that had cost (e.g.) 3d quickly increased in price to 3p, an increase of 140%. That was followed by the oil shocks which increased the price of energy, and entry to the Common Market (EU) which increased the price of food. The poorer half of the country certainly felt that someone had a hand in their pocket.
I genuinely saw newspaper comments saying that decimalisation was a reason they were going to vote for Brexit, because " it was an example of the EU (née common market) forcing us to get rid of a better system before entry, costing us lots of money" and they'd never gotten over it.
I admit, I didn't take them seriously...
Given the tory party voter base, I am now half-expecting them to announce they're going to reverse decimalisation next time they need a poll bump before an election.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 8:47 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I genuinely saw newspaper comments saying that decimalisation was a reason they were going to vote for Brexit, because " it was an example of the EU (née common market) forcing us to get rid of a better system before entry, costing us lots of money" and they'd never gotten over it.
I admit, I didn't take them seriously...
Given the tory party voter base, I am now half-expecting them to announce they're going to reverse decimalisation next time they need a poll bump before an election.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 8:47 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Am I misreading how little cash people are using now in the UK?"
Cash! I remember cash. And cheques! Remember those? Crazy.
Tap-to-pay debit cards and Android\Apple equivalents, and easy interbank transfers are rapidly removing cash from the equation in Europe. I last wrote a cheque probably when I bought this house 15 years ago.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 8:49 AM on February 15, 2021
Cash! I remember cash. And cheques! Remember those? Crazy.
Tap-to-pay debit cards and Android\Apple equivalents, and easy interbank transfers are rapidly removing cash from the equation in Europe. I last wrote a cheque probably when I bought this house 15 years ago.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 8:49 AM on February 15, 2021
Can't remember being asked for change in a bucket at all in the past 10 years.
Wait not even for Daffodil Day or whatever? Or poppies or anything where they give you a sticker??
Street collections are still a thing in Ireland. We do a street collection with buckets every Christmas for our dog charity. One Christmas we raised €3K (or €5K?) over three days, and I remember it very well because I was the one taking the buckets home and I had to dry all of the bills out on my radiators and rinse and dry the coins on bath towels because IT PISSED DOWN TORRENTIALLY THE WHOLE TIME and all of the buckets were just flooded with rainwater and my house literally smelled like hot money. (1/10 do not recommend.)
So anyway: still effective for fundraising!
posted by DarlingBri at 9:03 AM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
Wait not even for Daffodil Day or whatever? Or poppies or anything where they give you a sticker??
Street collections are still a thing in Ireland. We do a street collection with buckets every Christmas for our dog charity. One Christmas we raised €3K (or €5K?) over three days, and I remember it very well because I was the one taking the buckets home and I had to dry all of the bills out on my radiators and rinse and dry the coins on bath towels because IT PISSED DOWN TORRENTIALLY THE WHOLE TIME and all of the buckets were just flooded with rainwater and my house literally smelled like hot money. (1/10 do not recommend.)
So anyway: still effective for fundraising!
posted by DarlingBri at 9:03 AM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
My impression of guineas in the early 1900s is that they were used by advertisers of expensive items to make them seem 5% less expensive than they were, especially if the price was about to cross a natural "break", like 100 pounds...instead, you could advertise it at 97 guineas.
posted by maxwelton at 9:35 AM on February 15, 2021
posted by maxwelton at 9:35 AM on February 15, 2021
I was thankful for decimalization when I visited the UK just prior to the Scottish independence vote. But to this Yank the real confusion was why the 2 pence and twenty pence coins? I bought some items at a farmer’s market in Edinburgh and I’m sure some of the vendors thought I was daft because of how much I struggled with paying in correct change.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:00 AM on February 15, 2021
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:00 AM on February 15, 2021
The 2p and 20p coins are there for the same reason as the 5p and the 50p coins - to minimise the number of coins needed to pay a given amount. Possibly we went too far with it. The Euro has similar denominations. The US seems unusual in having a 25c coin.
posted by pipeski at 10:17 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by pipeski at 10:17 AM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is there a taxonomy of breakdowns of decimal currency by coins for different countries? The UK and Eurozone do 50/20/10/5/2/1, as did Australia until it scrapped the 2 and 1. Do any countries other than the US follow a 50/25/10/5 schema? Are there any odder schemas (i.e., anything with a 30-cent coin or such)?
Postage stamps in many places (the UK, for one) go for odd prime-numbered denominations, though that's presumably because the constraints on parsing postage are more forgiving.
posted by acb at 10:34 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Postage stamps in many places (the UK, for one) go for odd prime-numbered denominations, though that's presumably because the constraints on parsing postage are more forgiving.
posted by acb at 10:34 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh boy, I remember when fancy clothes shops priced things in guineas. And I remember the bitter war over whether 2p say, should be pronounced ‘two pea’, ‘two pence’ or stay with ‘tuppence’. I’m old.
posted by Phanx at 10:43 AM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 10:43 AM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
Tuppence, and tenpence also. And ha'penny, pronounced 'hape-knee', at least where I grew up.
I can remember buying eight (eight!) fruit salad chews for a ha'penny in the mid-70s.
posted by pipeski at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I can remember buying eight (eight!) fruit salad chews for a ha'penny in the mid-70s.
posted by pipeski at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I remember watching "Granny Gets The Point" at a hipster club in Glasgow in the mid-90s. I think everyone was taking fashion notes. It was the kind of place that projected onto a sheet with a slightly grubby lens. Hmm.
Non-decimal currency is a mess. Ever considered what a table of discounts looks like in a non-decimal system? Thomas Collins's The Complete Ready Reckoner in Minature (1816) has got that for you. It takes nearly 200 pages to tabulate discount amounts.
I do remember decimal being decried as "too hard for the old folks", as was metric a few years later. If the Brexit mob are wanting to roll back decimalization for the same reason, if those "old folks" were only 55 in 1971, they'd be 105 now. Not many of them about, eh?
I wish I could find the decimal jingles by The Scaffold (aka Paul McCartney's brother's band) and share them, 'cos "Use your old coppers in sixpenny lots" deserves to be stuck in more heads than mine for the next 50 years.
posted by scruss at 11:45 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Non-decimal currency is a mess. Ever considered what a table of discounts looks like in a non-decimal system? Thomas Collins's The Complete Ready Reckoner in Minature (1816) has got that for you. It takes nearly 200 pages to tabulate discount amounts.
I do remember decimal being decried as "too hard for the old folks", as was metric a few years later. If the Brexit mob are wanting to roll back decimalization for the same reason, if those "old folks" were only 55 in 1971, they'd be 105 now. Not many of them about, eh?
I wish I could find the decimal jingles by The Scaffold (aka Paul McCartney's brother's band) and share them, 'cos "Use your old coppers in sixpenny lots" deserves to be stuck in more heads than mine for the next 50 years.
posted by scruss at 11:45 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Those of us around prior 1961 remember the farthing.
posted by adamvasco at 11:50 AM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 11:50 AM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
William Hartnell insisted on being paid in guineas for Doctor Who. Patrick Troughton got pounds.
(Thoroughbred racehorses are still priced in guineas.)
posted by bebrogued at 11:54 AM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
(Thoroughbred racehorses are still priced in guineas.)
posted by bebrogued at 11:54 AM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
In the UK, some of the old pre-decimal coins continued to circulate until the early 1990s.
I grew up in the 1970s and remember this well. Shillings and florins still circulated alongside the new 5p and 10p coins, and it was very common to get them in change. Sixpences were rarer but still turned up from time to time (until Thatcher scrapped them in 1980); a lot of people kept a few silver sixpences to use in Christmas puddings, and these sometimes found their way into circulation, more often than you might think. Farthings hadn't been legal tender since 1960, but they could be mistaken for the new 1p coins, and if you weren't careful you could get one in your change and not notice till it was too late to return it.
This, I now realise, was a deliberate policy to cushion the impact of decimalisation by keeping many of the old coins in circulation. And it worked. Britain in the 1970s was still postwar Britain, culturally speaking, and having coins from the 1940s and 50s in your pocket was to be constantly reminded of that fact.
> I genuinely saw newspaper comments saying that decimalisation was a reason they were going to vote for Brexit
For a perfect example, I give you this Daily Mail rant from 2011: The day Britain lost its soul: How decimalisation signalled the demise of a proudly independent nation. "The half-crown, the shilling and the sixpence were symbols of a country set apart, proud of its island status .. On that grey, drizzly day 40 years ago, we might have gained a shiny new streamlined currency. But we also lost something rather more profound: a little bit of our national soul."
posted by verstegan at 12:26 PM on February 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I grew up in the 1970s and remember this well. Shillings and florins still circulated alongside the new 5p and 10p coins, and it was very common to get them in change. Sixpences were rarer but still turned up from time to time (until Thatcher scrapped them in 1980); a lot of people kept a few silver sixpences to use in Christmas puddings, and these sometimes found their way into circulation, more often than you might think. Farthings hadn't been legal tender since 1960, but they could be mistaken for the new 1p coins, and if you weren't careful you could get one in your change and not notice till it was too late to return it.
This, I now realise, was a deliberate policy to cushion the impact of decimalisation by keeping many of the old coins in circulation. And it worked. Britain in the 1970s was still postwar Britain, culturally speaking, and having coins from the 1940s and 50s in your pocket was to be constantly reminded of that fact.
> I genuinely saw newspaper comments saying that decimalisation was a reason they were going to vote for Brexit
For a perfect example, I give you this Daily Mail rant from 2011: The day Britain lost its soul: How decimalisation signalled the demise of a proudly independent nation. "The half-crown, the shilling and the sixpence were symbols of a country set apart, proud of its island status .. On that grey, drizzly day 40 years ago, we might have gained a shiny new streamlined currency. But we also lost something rather more profound: a little bit of our national soul."
posted by verstegan at 12:26 PM on February 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
The event I remember was the 1968 introduction of the new currency in parallel with the old, a florin (two shillings) now being worth either 10 new, or 24 old pence was all very confusing for the old folk. Probably reflecting the planning and preparation, the actual changeover in 1971 was a complete non event for me and I have no recollection of it at all.
posted by epo at 12:29 PM on February 15, 2021
posted by epo at 12:29 PM on February 15, 2021
And ha'penny, pronounced 'hape-knee', at least where I grew up.
I always find myself disappointed when the rugby player Leigh Halfpenny comes on to the pitch and the commentator insists on every syllable.
posted by biffa at 12:31 PM on February 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I always find myself disappointed when the rugby player Leigh Halfpenny comes on to the pitch and the commentator insists on every syllable.
posted by biffa at 12:31 PM on February 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
When I visited an Aussie relative in the late 90s I remember noticing the large piles of one- and two-cent coins he had lying around all over his house.
It only occurred to me years later that he would have been aware that their value as currency was about to be exceeded by their value as base metal. I know that a few years later the Australian government made it illegal to melt down coinage of the realm; I imagine he cashed out before then.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2021
It only occurred to me years later that he would have been aware that their value as currency was about to be exceeded by their value as base metal. I know that a few years later the Australian government made it illegal to melt down coinage of the realm; I imagine he cashed out before then.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2021
i was born just a couple of days after this. i believe my mother was sorely disappointed as she missed out on a commemorative set of coins. at least that's the story.
posted by iboxifoo at 12:46 PM on February 15, 2021
posted by iboxifoo at 12:46 PM on February 15, 2021
Do any countries other than the US follow a 50/25/10/5 schema? Are there any odder schemas (i.e., anything with a 30-cent coin or such)?
The Dutch guilder had 25-cent and 2.50-guilder coins. Denmark had a 25-ore coin.
And here is an excellent article about currencies which had or have denominations in 3, most notably in modern times the Soviet and satellite nations.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:48 PM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
The Dutch guilder had 25-cent and 2.50-guilder coins. Denmark had a 25-ore coin.
And here is an excellent article about currencies which had or have denominations in 3, most notably in modern times the Soviet and satellite nations.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:48 PM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I spent the first 18 years of my life in England with the old pounds shillings and pence. When at school even pennies from the reign of Queen Victoria were still legal currency alomg with the Edwards and the Georges and Liz. We were particularly fond of the bun pennies from when Vickie was depicted as a slender lass with ribbon-tied hair in a bun. They were still only pennies though. Probably worth a lot more these days.
The biggest pain at the time was being set the task in maths at school to answer
what is 7 pounds 6 shillings an fourpence hapenny multiplied by eleven
(£7 6s 41/2d x 11). It took half the lesson.
By the time I arrived back in England after my years abroad they had gone decimal
which made such calculations considerably easier but raised other problems. Ordering a pint of beer in the pub and proffering the requisite coins was no longer possible now requiring a long stare into a fistful of unfamiliar coins and holding up business for busy bartenders.
For a pint now you swipe a card - and costs you pounds anyway.
Rule Brittania - two tanners make a bob. (Ancient folk song)
posted by jan murray at 12:53 PM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
The biggest pain at the time was being set the task in maths at school to answer
what is 7 pounds 6 shillings an fourpence hapenny multiplied by eleven
(£7 6s 41/2d x 11). It took half the lesson.
By the time I arrived back in England after my years abroad they had gone decimal
which made such calculations considerably easier but raised other problems. Ordering a pint of beer in the pub and proffering the requisite coins was no longer possible now requiring a long stare into a fistful of unfamiliar coins and holding up business for busy bartenders.
For a pint now you swipe a card - and costs you pounds anyway.
Rule Brittania - two tanners make a bob. (Ancient folk song)
posted by jan murray at 12:53 PM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
and entry to the Common Market (EU) which increased the price of food
I bet you'll never guess what's just massively increased the price of my food, seeing as we're apparently relitigating the past.
posted by ambrosen at 1:11 PM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I bet you'll never guess what's just massively increased the price of my food, seeing as we're apparently relitigating the past.
posted by ambrosen at 1:11 PM on February 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'd be interested in visiting an alternate universe where, in a case of British Uniqueness Taken Too Far, the UK rejected both decimalization and metric-ization, and went with Base 12 for everything.
Doz-imalization: lots of dividing by 2,3,4,6, and 12, 144 ounces to the grossweight (abt 4 kilos elsewhere), etc. Only really works if you're an island that wants to spite millions on the mainland, but...
posted by bartleby at 1:18 PM on February 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Doz-imalization: lots of dividing by 2,3,4,6, and 12, 144 ounces to the grossweight (abt 4 kilos elsewhere), etc. Only really works if you're an island that wants to spite millions on the mainland, but...
posted by bartleby at 1:18 PM on February 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Do any countries other than the US follow a 50/25/10/5 schema?
Canada has the same schema: there are 5, 10, 25 and 50 cent coins and $1 and $2 coins.
The relative size of all coins worth under a dollar are also the same in both countries, i.e. in both countries the $0.05 coin is bigger than the $0.10 coin; see the table below. In addition, the Canadian and American nickel and pennies ($0.05 and $0.01) are also essentially the same size and the dimes and quarters ($0.10 and $0.25) differ by less than a millimeter from the other country's version.
(Of course, Canada no longer mints a penny, and US half-dollar coins are extremely rare in everyday circulation.)
From largest to smallest:
1. $0.50 (half-dollar) -- CA 27.1mm, US 30.6mm
2. $0.25 (quarter) -- CA 23.9mm, US 24.3mm
3. $0.05 (nickel) -- CA 21.2mm, US 21.2mm
4. $0.01 (penny) -- CA 19.0mm, US 19.0mm
5. $0.10 (dime) -- CA 18.0mm, 17.9mm
(As for the remaining coins -- $1 and $2 coins are in normal circulation in Canada. $1 coins are minted in the US but, like half-dollars, are very rare in everyday life, partially because there is still a $1 bill.)
posted by andrewesque at 1:30 PM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Canada has the same schema: there are 5, 10, 25 and 50 cent coins and $1 and $2 coins.
The relative size of all coins worth under a dollar are also the same in both countries, i.e. in both countries the $0.05 coin is bigger than the $0.10 coin; see the table below. In addition, the Canadian and American nickel and pennies ($0.05 and $0.01) are also essentially the same size and the dimes and quarters ($0.10 and $0.25) differ by less than a millimeter from the other country's version.
(Of course, Canada no longer mints a penny, and US half-dollar coins are extremely rare in everyday circulation.)
From largest to smallest:
1. $0.50 (half-dollar) -- CA 27.1mm, US 30.6mm
2. $0.25 (quarter) -- CA 23.9mm, US 24.3mm
3. $0.05 (nickel) -- CA 21.2mm, US 21.2mm
4. $0.01 (penny) -- CA 19.0mm, US 19.0mm
5. $0.10 (dime) -- CA 18.0mm, 17.9mm
(As for the remaining coins -- $1 and $2 coins are in normal circulation in Canada. $1 coins are minted in the US but, like half-dollars, are very rare in everyday life, partially because there is still a $1 bill.)
posted by andrewesque at 1:30 PM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Only really works if you're an island that wants to spite millions on the mainland, but...
Yeah, I'm having a sense of humour failure here, seeing as I belong to the country that those shitheads have chosen to tilt into inexorable decline.
posted by ambrosen at 1:51 PM on February 15, 2021
Yeah, I'm having a sense of humour failure here, seeing as I belong to the country that those shitheads have chosen to tilt into inexorable decline.
posted by ambrosen at 1:51 PM on February 15, 2021
Do any countries other than the US follow a 50/25/10/5 schema?
Japan does 500/100/50/10/5/1 and skips the 20/25 controversy altogether. Singapore and Hong Kong, unsurprisingly, follow the British convention.
The USSR was 1/50/20/15/10/5/3/2/1 but I’m not sure all of those were in regular circulation or frequently used.
To conclude, coinage is a land of contrasts.
posted by Guernsey Halleck at 1:58 PM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Japan does 500/100/50/10/5/1 and skips the 20/25 controversy altogether. Singapore and Hong Kong, unsurprisingly, follow the British convention.
The USSR was 1/50/20/15/10/5/3/2/1 but I’m not sure all of those were in regular circulation or frequently used.
To conclude, coinage is a land of contrasts.
posted by Guernsey Halleck at 1:58 PM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was surprised to realise reading this that I was already in secondary school when decimalisation took place. I'm not sure how common it was, but I learned my multiplication tables in national school with a currency addition:
Six threes are eighteen pence, one and six
Six fours are twentyfour pence, two shillings
Six fives are thirty pence, two and six,
etc. etc.
There have been four different coinage arrangements here in Ireland in my lifetime:
1. Pre-decimal, Irish pound pegged to Sterling. English coins circulated interchangeably with Irish ones here, though Irish coins could not be used in the UK.
2. Decimal, still pegged to Sterling, coins still used interchangeably.
3. Irish pound in ERM, with a variable exchange rate; English coins were now worth a bit more, so new Irish coin designs now had different shapes or sizes compared to the matching UK coins.
4. Euros.
posted by Azara at 1:59 PM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Six threes are eighteen pence, one and six
Six fours are twentyfour pence, two shillings
Six fives are thirty pence, two and six,
etc. etc.
There have been four different coinage arrangements here in Ireland in my lifetime:
1. Pre-decimal, Irish pound pegged to Sterling. English coins circulated interchangeably with Irish ones here, though Irish coins could not be used in the UK.
2. Decimal, still pegged to Sterling, coins still used interchangeably.
3. Irish pound in ERM, with a variable exchange rate; English coins were now worth a bit more, so new Irish coin designs now had different shapes or sizes compared to the matching UK coins.
4. Euros.
posted by Azara at 1:59 PM on February 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
My understanding is that currencies with 25 and 2.50 coins are doing a homage to Austro-Spanish Thalers=Dollars = Pieces of Eight - as in 1 Spanish Dollar of 8 reals. This is why for Americans (of an older vintage?) a quarter is "two bits". Pre-decimal British and Irish coinage hedged on this by minting both 2 shilling coins aka florins AND half-crowns of 2 shillings-and-sixpence or 1 eighth of £1. My aged great aunt Anna would give my two sibs and me a whole £1 at Christmas but shared three-ways = 6/8 six shillings and eightpence each.
My one regret is that I didn't get 480 old pennies for £2 before decimalisation. They weigh a chunky 9g and are 30mm across and make great poker chips or pirate treasure for kids.
The Irish coins were gorgeous designs of iconic animals. A couple of weeks ago I sent my grand-daughter an old florin, which features a salmon, as a make you smarter Salmon-of-Knowledge fetish.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:05 PM on February 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
My one regret is that I didn't get 480 old pennies for £2 before decimalisation. They weigh a chunky 9g and are 30mm across and make great poker chips or pirate treasure for kids.
The Irish coins were gorgeous designs of iconic animals. A couple of weeks ago I sent my grand-daughter an old florin, which features a salmon, as a make you smarter Salmon-of-Knowledge fetish.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:05 PM on February 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
(As for the remaining coins -- $1 and $2 coins are in normal circulation in Canada. $1 coins are minted in the US but, like half-dollars, are very rare in everyday life, partially because there is still a $1 bill.)
I worked in a precious metals shop (bullion/coins/scrap) until I lost my job for pandemic reasons, and every day, without fail, someone would call wanting to know how much we would pay them for a "gold" coin that had a woman with a baby on it. Many of them refused to believe they were only worth a dollar. Dollar coins are pretty much unrecognizable to Americans, and we have at least three basic types that are circulating legal tender.
(Of course, Canada no longer mints a penny, and US half-dollar coins are extremely rare in everyday circulation.)
I was often tasked with getting change for the til (we were a cash only shop, unless the purchase was large enough for bank transfers) and one time I took a roll of clad* half dollars to the bank. The teller nearly paid me a dollar each for them until I pointed it out.
*modern half dollars. We also dealt in junk (90% silver) half dollars, which obviously did not go to the bank.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:01 PM on February 15, 2021
I worked in a precious metals shop (bullion/coins/scrap) until I lost my job for pandemic reasons, and every day, without fail, someone would call wanting to know how much we would pay them for a "gold" coin that had a woman with a baby on it. Many of them refused to believe they were only worth a dollar. Dollar coins are pretty much unrecognizable to Americans, and we have at least three basic types that are circulating legal tender.
(Of course, Canada no longer mints a penny, and US half-dollar coins are extremely rare in everyday circulation.)
I was often tasked with getting change for the til (we were a cash only shop, unless the purchase was large enough for bank transfers) and one time I took a roll of clad* half dollars to the bank. The teller nearly paid me a dollar each for them until I pointed it out.
*modern half dollars. We also dealt in junk (90% silver) half dollars, which obviously did not go to the bank.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:01 PM on February 15, 2021
Australian government infomercial for when we went metric in 1966.
Using the tune of iconic Aussie ballad"Click Go the Shears" for the jingle was a smart move. I was fourteen at the time and to this day that hook line "On the fourteenth of February 1966" lurks in my earworm repository. The coin designs featuring indigenous animals were and remain beautiful. My young heart swelled with pride when I first held them.
The 50 cent coin changed in shape from round to 12-sided soon after because it was too easily confused with the 20 cent coin. Its silver/copper alloy was changed to nickel/copper after the price of silver rose above the face value. The Australian Mint has the story.
Regarding odd denominations, up till '66 we had small silver threepenny coins, quite the choking hazard in a Christmas pudding.
posted by valetta at 6:11 PM on February 15, 2021
Using the tune of iconic Aussie ballad"Click Go the Shears" for the jingle was a smart move. I was fourteen at the time and to this day that hook line "On the fourteenth of February 1966" lurks in my earworm repository. The coin designs featuring indigenous animals were and remain beautiful. My young heart swelled with pride when I first held them.
The 50 cent coin changed in shape from round to 12-sided soon after because it was too easily confused with the 20 cent coin. Its silver/copper alloy was changed to nickel/copper after the price of silver rose above the face value. The Australian Mint has the story.
Regarding odd denominations, up till '66 we had small silver threepenny coins, quite the choking hazard in a Christmas pudding.
posted by valetta at 6:11 PM on February 15, 2021
NZ went decimal a few years before the UK did, we went a different route though, instead of converting 1 old pount to 1 new pound we switched from 10 shillings to 1$ (20 shillings/1 pount to $2). That meant that the existing 1/2 shilling coins became 10/20c (and were quickly replaced by such coins of the same size) and sixpence was an exact exchange for 5c (again a similar coin was issues) - we dumped pennies and thruppences (replaced non-equivalent 1/2c coins) - we dumped half-crowns and brought back a crown coin aka 50c - hapennies and farthings had already gone by then.
That left us with 1/2/5/10/20/50 coins and $1/2/5/10/20/50/100 notes.
Since then 1/2/5c coins have gone $1/2 have become coins - and we made the coins smaller
posted by mbo at 7:36 PM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
That left us with 1/2/5/10/20/50 coins and $1/2/5/10/20/50/100 notes.
Since then 1/2/5c coins have gone $1/2 have become coins - and we made the coins smaller
posted by mbo at 7:36 PM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
As a kid I had to do word problems in primary school - if 2lb 4oz of gold costs 5 pound 17 shillings thruppence hapenny when will 1 ton 35lb 11oz cost ...... (of course this was a trick question, we were expected to know that gold was weighed in troy ounces) - going decimal and metric made most of the hardness of this sort of problem become simply one of long division
posted by mbo at 7:40 PM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by mbo at 7:40 PM on February 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Charitable giving has largely evolved into a mix of monthly direct debit, rounding up of card payments, and Gift Aid. Can't remember being asked for change in a bucket at all in the past 10 years.
I've not yet been in a corner shop that didn't have a wee bucket by the till. Many chippies and takeaways here as well, and most Coops. I guess it depends on where you are or shop?
posted by Dysk at 10:14 PM on February 15, 2021
I've not yet been in a corner shop that didn't have a wee bucket by the till. Many chippies and takeaways here as well, and most Coops. I guess it depends on where you are or shop?
posted by Dysk at 10:14 PM on February 15, 2021
I've not yet been in a corner shop that didn't have a wee bucket by the till. Many chippies and takeaways here as well, and most Coops. I guess it depends on where you are or shop?
At my local major chain supermarket I would always drop my small change into the charity box. One day they were nowhere to be found. I asked, and was informed it was a 'decision of senior management'.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 10:35 PM on February 15, 2021
At my local major chain supermarket I would always drop my small change into the charity box. One day they were nowhere to be found. I asked, and was informed it was a 'decision of senior management'.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 10:35 PM on February 15, 2021
That sucks. I hate shopping anywhere that does the £x.x9 pricing thing and doesn't have a bucket - I don't want the coppers, they're just useless bulk.
Not that I've really used cash in any shops since 2019.
posted by Dysk at 10:52 PM on February 15, 2021
Not that I've really used cash in any shops since 2019.
posted by Dysk at 10:52 PM on February 15, 2021
I have literally handled less than £250 since last March.
A premillenial uncle recently told me, in one sentence, that (A) having become a cashless society is a sign of the rise of the antichrist but (B) it certainly is convenient, isn't it?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:15 AM on February 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
A premillenial uncle recently told me, in one sentence, that (A) having become a cashless society is a sign of the rise of the antichrist but (B) it certainly is convenient, isn't it?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:15 AM on February 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can still recall a day of severe stress early in '71; I was seven, had just learned imperial coinage, and was on a bus, with a handful of coins and feeling lost and perplexed. I don't think I ever recovered.
Didn't help that our school books either remained stubbornly imperial, or worse, mixed the two systems. Nowadays I move back and forth 'tween the two, something very body-normal about the old numbers. Metric useful yes, but cold as cold.
posted by unearthed at 1:28 AM on February 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Didn't help that our school books either remained stubbornly imperial, or worse, mixed the two systems. Nowadays I move back and forth 'tween the two, something very body-normal about the old numbers. Metric useful yes, but cold as cold.
posted by unearthed at 1:28 AM on February 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
It was only recently (the last ten to twenty years -ish) that British car manufacturers started reporting the power of their engines in kW. The scientist in me wants to use the much more sensible metric unit, but somewhere in the depths of my soul, I get a kick out of the fact that my humble little Ford Fiesta fits 150 horses somewhere in that tiny little one litre engine.
posted by Eleven at 3:38 AM on February 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Eleven at 3:38 AM on February 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Using the tune of iconic Aussie ballad"Click Go the Shears" for the jingle was a smart move. I was fourteen at the time and to this day that hook line "On the fourteenth of February 1966" lurks in my earworm repository. The coin designs featuring indigenous animals were and remain beautiful. My young heart swelled with pride when I first held them.
It was six years before Whitlam, and yet Australia was more forward-looking than it is today.
Were the decision on currencies being made today, they probably would have gone with Menzies' idea of calling it the Royal.
posted by acb at 4:04 AM on February 16, 2021
It was six years before Whitlam, and yet Australia was more forward-looking than it is today.
Were the decision on currencies being made today, they probably would have gone with Menzies' idea of calling it the Royal.
posted by acb at 4:04 AM on February 16, 2021
I remember the bitter war over whether 2p say, should be pronounced ‘two pea’, ‘two pence’ or stay with ‘tuppence’.
I still get annoyed when I hear anyone refer to "one pence". The singular is penny, dammit!
I've not yet been in a corner shop that didn't have a wee bucket by the till.
Ours have proper toilets.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:46 AM on February 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
I still get annoyed when I hear anyone refer to "one pence". The singular is penny, dammit!
I've not yet been in a corner shop that didn't have a wee bucket by the till.
Ours have proper toilets.
posted by Paul Slade at 5:46 AM on February 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
Britain adopted the metric system in 1965.
Mostly.
Some considered it Idolatrous.
posted by adamvasco at 8:53 AM on February 15 [1 favorite +] [!]
-------
This person would have voted for Trump wouldn't they.
posted by symbioid at 1:12 PM on February 16, 2021
Mostly.
Some considered it Idolatrous.
posted by adamvasco at 8:53 AM on February 15 [1 favorite +] [!]
-------
This person would have voted for Trump wouldn't they.
posted by symbioid at 1:12 PM on February 16, 2021
something very body-normal about the old numbers
Thank you for phrasing it this way! as it allowed me to remember where my base 12 fantasy came from. Tucked into an old D&D role playing game manual, I just found this handwritten index card:
12 hairs to the nail, 12 nails to the finger (abt 1.5cm)
12 fingers to the span; 12 spans make a staff (abt 7 ft or 2 meters). Half a staff is a stride.
12 staves make a rope. 12 ropes make a race (a bit shorter than 1000 feet / 300m).
1 square span is a tile, while one cubic tile is a loaf (a cube with 7 inch sides, holding 1.5 gallons).
One square stride is a slab, one cubic stride is a crate (~1 cubic meter). One square staff is a patch, one cubic staff is a wagonfull.
One cubic rope of stuff will a fill cargo schooner's hold. A field one race by one race is 20 acres.
What kind of nerds role-play their own measurement system? And which of you nerds will help figure out the coinage?
posted by bartleby at 2:19 PM on February 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Thank you for phrasing it this way! as it allowed me to remember where my base 12 fantasy came from. Tucked into an old D&D role playing game manual, I just found this handwritten index card:
12 hairs to the nail, 12 nails to the finger (abt 1.5cm)
12 fingers to the span; 12 spans make a staff (abt 7 ft or 2 meters). Half a staff is a stride.
12 staves make a rope. 12 ropes make a race (a bit shorter than 1000 feet / 300m).
1 square span is a tile, while one cubic tile is a loaf (a cube with 7 inch sides, holding 1.5 gallons).
One square stride is a slab, one cubic stride is a crate (~1 cubic meter). One square staff is a patch, one cubic staff is a wagonfull.
One cubic rope of stuff will a fill cargo schooner's hold. A field one race by one race is 20 acres.
What kind of nerds role-play their own measurement system? And which of you nerds will help figure out the coinage?
posted by bartleby at 2:19 PM on February 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Digging a little deeper, I found that – to this day – there are people who think it was all a government conspiracy to screw over the common people. (I didn't quite understand the particulars.)
I guess that shouldn't be surprising.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:45 AM on February 15, 2021 [2 favorites]