Four ways Zoom interaction overwhelms our brains
February 26, 2021 1:05 PM Subscribe
Jeremy Bailenson, founding director of Stanford’s Virtual Human Interaction Lab, noticed how quickly Zoom fatigue arose as video conferencing became commonplace during the pandemic. His open-access article explores why: Nonverbal Overload: A Theoretical Argument for the Causes of Zoom Fatigue from Technology, Mind, and Behavior, 2(1). https://doi.org/10.1037/tmb0000030.
Bailenson notes four aspects of the Zoom interface that create nonverbal overload
18-minute BBC podcast with author Jeremy Bailenson
https://pod.link/261786876/episode/0c576ae6b94be62a85abd2a6bbeff520
Six-minute NBC (U.S.) Today show summarizing research
https://www.today.com/video/could-zoom-be-taking-a-toll-on-your-mental-health-101511749572
Bailenson notes four aspects of the Zoom interface that create nonverbal overload
- Excessive amounts of close-up eye gaze
- Cognitive load
- Increased self-evaluation from staring at video of oneself
- Constraints on physical mobility
18-minute BBC podcast with author Jeremy Bailenson
https://pod.link/261786876/episode/0c576ae6b94be62a85abd2a6bbeff520
Six-minute NBC (U.S.) Today show summarizing research
https://www.today.com/video/could-zoom-be-taking-a-toll-on-your-mental-health-101511749572
Is it just me that stares at my own image endlessly? The only thing I get from online meetings is a slightly guilty feeling from never looking at anyone else's face, but it's not like they can tell anyway.
posted by GuyZero at 1:46 PM on February 26, 2021 [60 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 1:46 PM on February 26, 2021 [60 favorites]
I do too, GuyZero..it feels less invasive. It has also led to me wondering if I should be concerned that my smile is too asymmetric.
posted by emjaybee at 1:49 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 1:49 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
This is good and I plan to pass it along to my colleagues, both up and down the chain of command.
After experiencing real Zoom burnout for a bit, I've come back around to taking it a LOT more casually. For reference, I'm on Zoom for about 50-60% of my work week, higher ed setting, mostly professional peers and not students.
Nowadays, I deliberately place my camera at an off-axis angle and slightly above eye level. ("Part of the reason for the ugliness of adults, in a child's eyes, is that the child is usually looking upwards, and few faces are at their best when seen from below." Orwell, "Such, Such Were the Joys")
I also messaged my regular internal team folks and said, if it's just us and you want a break from being on camera, just sign on with your camera off. It's fine.
We try to keep Zoom meetings to 30 minutes or shorter. Makes a huge difference.
However, facing a screen full of blank quares ALSO wildly distorts what it's like to speak with others in a group. It's not fun and sort of deflating, frankly. We have workarounds like on-camera chit chat at the start; I tell everyone that if you like your camera on, then do so please, but off is okay, too; and once I did a screen share the entire time of a chill nature videos - like fish swimming around - from youtube with the sound off. They liked that.
posted by Caxton1476 at 1:52 PM on February 26, 2021 [28 favorites]
After experiencing real Zoom burnout for a bit, I've come back around to taking it a LOT more casually. For reference, I'm on Zoom for about 50-60% of my work week, higher ed setting, mostly professional peers and not students.
Nowadays, I deliberately place my camera at an off-axis angle and slightly above eye level. ("Part of the reason for the ugliness of adults, in a child's eyes, is that the child is usually looking upwards, and few faces are at their best when seen from below." Orwell, "Such, Such Were the Joys")
I also messaged my regular internal team folks and said, if it's just us and you want a break from being on camera, just sign on with your camera off. It's fine.
We try to keep Zoom meetings to 30 minutes or shorter. Makes a huge difference.
However, facing a screen full of blank quares ALSO wildly distorts what it's like to speak with others in a group. It's not fun and sort of deflating, frankly. We have workarounds like on-camera chit chat at the start; I tell everyone that if you like your camera on, then do so please, but off is okay, too; and once I did a screen share the entire time of a chill nature videos - like fish swimming around - from youtube with the sound off. They liked that.
posted by Caxton1476 at 1:52 PM on February 26, 2021 [28 favorites]
Nonverbal overload? Too much eye contact?
Sounds like people are getting a small taste of the Autistic Experience (TM).
posted by BungaDunga at 2:18 PM on February 26, 2021 [48 favorites]
Sounds like people are getting a small taste of the Autistic Experience (TM).
posted by BungaDunga at 2:18 PM on February 26, 2021 [48 favorites]
(I'm being flippant but boy howdy is Zoom fatigue familiar, it's certainly a different flavor of fatigue from in-person face-to-faces but I find it's broadly the same kind)
posted by BungaDunga at 2:20 PM on February 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:20 PM on February 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
For myself, I like zoom meetings. They waste less time and are generally easier on me. I need to get an adjustable desk and a better chair, but the other things? I glance at the face of speakers to try to remember their faces, then I look away. It’s a huge relief. I have a visual disorder that sometimes makes looking at people’s faces really unpleasant, so being freed from that is nice.
The people I hear hating on zoom are long-winded extroverts who suspect that, with teleconferencing, people just do email or scroll web pages while waiting for them to stop talking. Which is probably true, at least some of the time.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:30 PM on February 26, 2021 [16 favorites]
The people I hear hating on zoom are long-winded extroverts who suspect that, with teleconferencing, people just do email or scroll web pages while waiting for them to stop talking. Which is probably true, at least some of the time.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:30 PM on February 26, 2021 [16 favorites]
It has also led to me wondering if I should be concerned that my smile is too asymmetric.
50 years of looking at photos of myself and never until this year did I realize how extremely asymmetric my smile is!
posted by GuyZero at 2:33 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
50 years of looking at photos of myself and never until this year did I realize how extremely asymmetric my smile is!
posted by GuyZero at 2:33 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
I apparently have lucked out so far, all the Zoom/GoToMeeting/Teams meetings I've been on for work (usually one or two a week), everyone's camera is off and we're primarily just doing a conference voice call with somebody sharing their computer desktop.
With family Zooms, though, it's all camera all the time so we can include the dogs and cats, experiment with Dutch Angles, wear funny hats, etc.
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:39 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
With family Zooms, though, it's all camera all the time so we can include the dogs and cats, experiment with Dutch Angles, wear funny hats, etc.
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:39 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
It has also led to me wondering if I should be concerned that my smile is too asymmetric.
50 years of looking at photos of myself and never until this year did I realize how extremely asymmetric my smile is!
And when I have "mirror image" on (or off? so confusing) and I see myself as others do, I barely recognize myself.
Other thoughts I have while on Zoom:
I love what "enhance image" does for my skin.
Will people be horrified by my actual not-enhanced appearance when we go back?
Fuck it.
Can everyone tell that I'm staring at myself right now?
*inspect everyone else to see if they look like they're looking at themselves*
*inspect everyone else to see if they have "enhance image" on*
posted by HotToddy at 3:02 PM on February 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
50 years of looking at photos of myself and never until this year did I realize how extremely asymmetric my smile is!
And when I have "mirror image" on (or off? so confusing) and I see myself as others do, I barely recognize myself.
Other thoughts I have while on Zoom:
I love what "enhance image" does for my skin.
Will people be horrified by my actual not-enhanced appearance when we go back?
Fuck it.
Can everyone tell that I'm staring at myself right now?
*inspect everyone else to see if they look like they're looking at themselves*
*inspect everyone else to see if they have "enhance image" on*
posted by HotToddy at 3:02 PM on February 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
Symmetrical smiles are creepy, I say this as someone who spent a semester forcing myself to draw expressions from life; a smiling face with symmetry only makes me feel like I’m looking at a very airbrushed person, a deeply uncomfortable person, or a potential murderer. One dimple deeper than the other? Lilt to one side? Chin jutted askew? Eyebrows quirked? Eyes squinted unevenly? Yes, these smiles convey actual positivity. Anyway in conclusion your face is fine.
posted by Mizu at 3:03 PM on February 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 3:03 PM on February 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
50 years of looking at photos of myself and never until this year did I realize how extremely asymmetric my smile is!
Now stand in front of a mirror and notice how far from level with each other your shoulders are.
posted by biffa at 3:14 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Now stand in front of a mirror and notice how far from level with each other your shoulders are.
posted by biffa at 3:14 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
*inspect everyone else to see if they look like they're looking at themselves*
But everyone is looking at their screen, so there's really no way to tell.
Also, I don't understand the "two feet away" mentioned above. If each person is two feet away from their screen/camera (actually I'm usually more like 3 feet away from it), that's 4 feet total between them; I don't see how that would feel encroaching or up-close. It doesn't happen to bother me though so maybe I'm missing something?
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:17 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
But everyone is looking at their screen, so there's really no way to tell.
Also, I don't understand the "two feet away" mentioned above. If each person is two feet away from their screen/camera (actually I'm usually more like 3 feet away from it), that's 4 feet total between them; I don't see how that would feel encroaching or up-close. It doesn't happen to bother me though so maybe I'm missing something?
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:17 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
We're all going to be so feral when we have to have in-person meetings again.
posted by emjaybee at 3:27 PM on February 26, 2021 [35 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 3:27 PM on February 26, 2021 [35 favorites]
Anyway in conclusion your face is fine.
My smile is sufficiently asymmetric that I briefly worried I had palsy and did not realize it. I am sure it's fine, but doctor google briefly got a good workout.
posted by GuyZero at 3:34 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
My smile is sufficiently asymmetric that I briefly worried I had palsy and did not realize it. I am sure it's fine, but doctor google briefly got a good workout.
posted by GuyZero at 3:34 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also have the situation where people at work don't use video. I've had to go out of my way to request video calls when talking one on one to actually get to know new people. The whole NASA GeoXO Fight Project team has been formed during isolation, and many of us have never met in person. It will be so odd to finally meet one day.
That said, my personal life is mostly run via Zoom, which means I spend way too much time looking at my own reflection, and reminding myself that the others aren't actually looking directly at me, and that I can in fact look directly into their eyes without them knowing.
It's exhausting, but it's kept me mostly mentally functional for the last year.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 3:35 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
That said, my personal life is mostly run via Zoom, which means I spend way too much time looking at my own reflection, and reminding myself that the others aren't actually looking directly at me, and that I can in fact look directly into their eyes without them knowing.
It's exhausting, but it's kept me mostly mentally functional for the last year.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 3:35 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
My helpful tips for Zoom fatigue:
(a) If you're allowed to, don't do 4-6 hour meetings all bleeping day like I used to.
(b) Do not turn on the camera if you don't have to interact with people (this is, of course, assuming our work allows it).
I don't super mind having to watch myself the entire time if we're just talking, but watching myself watch a lecture or show or whatever is super creepy and I do not enjoy this. I'm sick of watching a comedy show/play/storytelling/whatever event and everyone says very loudly, "Please turn on your cameras! We want to see your smiling faces!" Fuck you, no, you don't even know me, why do you have to see my face? If I was in the back of a live audience you wouldn't be staring close up at my face either.
Really, it's the having to watch yourself, and judging yourself, and policing yourself, that does you in.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:40 PM on February 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
(a) If you're allowed to, don't do 4-6 hour meetings all bleeping day like I used to.
(b) Do not turn on the camera if you don't have to interact with people (this is, of course, assuming our work allows it).
I don't super mind having to watch myself the entire time if we're just talking, but watching myself watch a lecture or show or whatever is super creepy and I do not enjoy this. I'm sick of watching a comedy show/play/storytelling/whatever event and everyone says very loudly, "Please turn on your cameras! We want to see your smiling faces!" Fuck you, no, you don't even know me, why do you have to see my face? If I was in the back of a live audience you wouldn't be staring close up at my face either.
Really, it's the having to watch yourself, and judging yourself, and policing yourself, that does you in.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:40 PM on February 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's not that I doubt the reality of self-evaluation or cognitive overload or mobility constraint. It's just that I can't help thinking "zoom fatigue" is just what happens when you have nothing to do in your entire life except work (click on laptop, sit in zoom meetings), and things that are identical to work but unpaid (click on laptop, sit in zoom meetings with your family and friends) and you haven't done anything interesting in 12 months.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:47 PM on February 26, 2021 [31 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:47 PM on February 26, 2021 [31 favorites]
The whole NASA GeoXO Fight Project team has been formed during isolation, and many of us have never met in person. It will be so odd to finally meet one day.
I've worked remotely for 10 of the 12 years I've been with my current employer. Our Zoom conferences are always audio-only or with someone sharing their computer screen. I've never seen 90% of my co-workers.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:48 PM on February 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
I've worked remotely for 10 of the 12 years I've been with my current employer. Our Zoom conferences are always audio-only or with someone sharing their computer screen. I've never seen 90% of my co-workers.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:48 PM on February 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
And frankly I'm fine with that.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:48 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:48 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
If each person is two feet away from their screen/camera (actually I'm usually more like 3 feet away from it), that's 4 feet total between them
That's not how it works, though. My camera's two feet away, yes, but it's on top my screen, which is two feet away. And your face is on my screen. Two feet away.
posted by explosion at 4:19 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's not how it works, though. My camera's two feet away, yes, but it's on top my screen, which is two feet away. And your face is on my screen. Two feet away.
posted by explosion at 4:19 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
In Zoom, once your video has started up and you've confirmed that your hair isn't too askew, etc. - as soon as anyone else is in the call, hit the three-dots menu available from hovering in the top right corner, and select "Hide Self-View." You won't have your face included in the grid of faces you're talking to.
Since seeing an earlier report on this research last summer I have been doing this every single call.
posted by stevil at 4:25 PM on February 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
Since seeing an earlier report on this research last summer I have been doing this every single call.
posted by stevil at 4:25 PM on February 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'd like to know more about these jobs that require constant video-conferencing for hours at a stretch, and whether the video is a net benefit when you consider the tradeoffs of staring at a screen into someone's delayed and possibly computer-modified face all the time. It seems like people have created new standards of etiquette that didn't exist before and are unrealistic.
Possibly the worst I've heard about are "hybrid" classrooms, where some of the students are in the classroom and some are conferencing in, and the teacher may or may not be even in the classroom either. So there's a weird division between the students on the same "platform" as the teacher and everyone else.
posted by meowzilla at 4:27 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Possibly the worst I've heard about are "hybrid" classrooms, where some of the students are in the classroom and some are conferencing in, and the teacher may or may not be even in the classroom either. So there's a weird division between the students on the same "platform" as the teacher and everyone else.
posted by meowzilla at 4:27 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
My camera's two feet away, yes, but it's on top my screen, which is two feet away. And your face is on my screen. Two feet away.
But unless I've got my face plastered up against my camera, I'm also two feet away (at minimum), which makes it look like we're at least 4 feet apart. Plus, my face is a lot smaller than it would be if I were two feet away from you because (a) it's small on your screen and (b) made even smaller by all the other person-squares also showing on your screen.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:33 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
But unless I've got my face plastered up against my camera, I'm also two feet away (at minimum), which makes it look like we're at least 4 feet apart. Plus, my face is a lot smaller than it would be if I were two feet away from you because (a) it's small on your screen and (b) made even smaller by all the other person-squares also showing on your screen.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:33 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I mean, if you're uncomfortable you're uncomfortable, and that's your business. I just don't get the stated reasoning, that's all.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:34 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:34 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Your Honor, I am not a cat..."
posted by Windopaene at 4:35 PM on February 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 4:35 PM on February 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
Now stand in front of a mirror and notice how far from level with each other your shoulders are.
Playing the tuba in marching band downright deformed me.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:35 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Playing the tuba in marching band downright deformed me.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:35 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'd like to know more about these jobs that require constant video-conferencing for hours at a stretch,
Hi! I'm a lobbyist for a nonprofit. I regularly have 6-8+ hours of video calls a day, and have to spend non-business hours on my thinky work. The percentage of hours in my workweek consumed by meetings has SKYROCKETED since the pandemic. People who just pick up the phone and call with quick questions are my favorites now.
and whether the video is a net benefit when you consider the tradeoffs of staring at a screen into someone's delayed and possibly computer-modified face all the time.
No, literally everything about it is terrible. Lots of people (who I know for a fact can afford/expense it) have never upgraded their camera or audio setups, so you're looking straight up their noses and it sounds like you're talking via tin can, with echoey feedback to boot because those same people NEVER mute themselves. And I have to remind myself, constantly, to look forward and appear attentive all the time, when in real life I rarely look right at people in meetings. I usually scribble in a notebook or something to maintain focus. So I only absorb a fraction of what's even going on in these wastes of time and I can't multitask well enough to look at the screen, have Attentive Face, and do my email or whatever. And the being physically glued to a chair thing all day is killing me.
On the bright side, my public speaking appearances have improved because webcam + notes on screen equals cheap teleprompter!
posted by bowtiesarecool at 4:45 PM on February 26, 2021 [28 favorites]
Hi! I'm a lobbyist for a nonprofit. I regularly have 6-8+ hours of video calls a day, and have to spend non-business hours on my thinky work. The percentage of hours in my workweek consumed by meetings has SKYROCKETED since the pandemic. People who just pick up the phone and call with quick questions are my favorites now.
and whether the video is a net benefit when you consider the tradeoffs of staring at a screen into someone's delayed and possibly computer-modified face all the time.
No, literally everything about it is terrible. Lots of people (who I know for a fact can afford/expense it) have never upgraded their camera or audio setups, so you're looking straight up their noses and it sounds like you're talking via tin can, with echoey feedback to boot because those same people NEVER mute themselves. And I have to remind myself, constantly, to look forward and appear attentive all the time, when in real life I rarely look right at people in meetings. I usually scribble in a notebook or something to maintain focus. So I only absorb a fraction of what's even going on in these wastes of time and I can't multitask well enough to look at the screen, have Attentive Face, and do my email or whatever. And the being physically glued to a chair thing all day is killing me.
On the bright side, my public speaking appearances have improved because webcam + notes on screen equals cheap teleprompter!
posted by bowtiesarecool at 4:45 PM on February 26, 2021 [28 favorites]
I feel like my workplace is simultaneously ahead of the curve and wildly behind it. Using meeting software (we use webex not zoom but same diff) has been normal for ages, long before the pandemic, because we were a mix of on site and remote, and most meetings had that as a component even if some of us were meeting in a conference room. So in that sense we were well prepared to all work from home. We seem wonderfully behind the times, though, because it never occurred to us over all of those years to use our webcams, ever, for any meetings. So we still mostly don't.
Friends of mine whose first real experience with zoom was when they were sent home in pandemic lockdown tended to end up in a work culture of having the cameras on always, or having to explain why it is not on, and are much the worse off for it. Also people staging their home office backgrounds is a thing that I'm glad I don't have to take part in.
posted by selenized at 4:57 PM on February 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Friends of mine whose first real experience with zoom was when they were sent home in pandemic lockdown tended to end up in a work culture of having the cameras on always, or having to explain why it is not on, and are much the worse off for it. Also people staging their home office backgrounds is a thing that I'm glad I don't have to take part in.
posted by selenized at 4:57 PM on February 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Is it just me that stares at my own image endlessly?
Yes, somehow engaging in a Narcissus/Looking Glass Self is much easier on my brain than staring at others for long stretches. For that reason, I actually prefer Zoom to Teams because Zoom lets me keep my face the same size as everyone else, whereas Teams insists on keeping my video small and in the corner.
posted by past unusual at 4:59 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yes, somehow engaging in a Narcissus/Looking Glass Self is much easier on my brain than staring at others for long stretches. For that reason, I actually prefer Zoom to Teams because Zoom lets me keep my face the same size as everyone else, whereas Teams insists on keeping my video small and in the corner.
posted by past unusual at 4:59 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Your Honor, I am not a cat..."
That was indeed hilarious. But also, I've been using Facerig to be a virtual avatar in zoom for the past month and it has eliminated a lot of the zoom fatigue. Granted, my use of zoom is in a casual context with only about 5hrs/week in total, but it not having to stare at your own face and instead being a kitty cat or a hamburger is such a relief. Obviously context is everything, I'm not gonna be a talking turkey at someone's online wake or mental health intervention, but if you're able to I highly recommend doing zoom as a virtual avatar.
posted by Philipschall at 5:00 PM on February 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
That was indeed hilarious. But also, I've been using Facerig to be a virtual avatar in zoom for the past month and it has eliminated a lot of the zoom fatigue. Granted, my use of zoom is in a casual context with only about 5hrs/week in total, but it not having to stare at your own face and instead being a kitty cat or a hamburger is such a relief. Obviously context is everything, I'm not gonna be a talking turkey at someone's online wake or mental health intervention, but if you're able to I highly recommend doing zoom as a virtual avatar.
posted by Philipschall at 5:00 PM on February 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'd like to know more about these jobs that require constant video-conferencing for hours at a stretch,
Do you, though?
I...I dunno what to tell you. Some jobs require them because they're dysfunctional workplaces with little accountability and nothing gets done or answered unless your boss is literally speaking to you with their face. Some require them because they legit involve constant collaborative work. Sometimes it's both? I will never prefer a meeting to a Slack channel but after enough months of your coworkers' disjointed, fragmented, unthreaded, virtually impenetrable Slack communiques, you give up and give in.
I dunno what the point of video is, though. I have an avatar image (it's a mildly entertaining picture of myself) and that is what is up 99% of the time.
Like selenized's company above, we were already scattered and largely remote so at least for the most part people are chill about video and good at muting and wearing headphones and such. But yeah, the weariness of reaching 6pm and realizing that now it's time to get STARTED on all the tasks you spent 9 hours MEETING about...yea that's the fucking Zoom fatigue, right there. The "my job feels free to eat my life because what else are you doin, you unvaccinated sucker" fatigue.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:08 PM on February 26, 2021 [11 favorites]
Do you, though?
I...I dunno what to tell you. Some jobs require them because they're dysfunctional workplaces with little accountability and nothing gets done or answered unless your boss is literally speaking to you with their face. Some require them because they legit involve constant collaborative work. Sometimes it's both? I will never prefer a meeting to a Slack channel but after enough months of your coworkers' disjointed, fragmented, unthreaded, virtually impenetrable Slack communiques, you give up and give in.
I dunno what the point of video is, though. I have an avatar image (it's a mildly entertaining picture of myself) and that is what is up 99% of the time.
Like selenized's company above, we were already scattered and largely remote so at least for the most part people are chill about video and good at muting and wearing headphones and such. But yeah, the weariness of reaching 6pm and realizing that now it's time to get STARTED on all the tasks you spent 9 hours MEETING about...yea that's the fucking Zoom fatigue, right there. The "my job feels free to eat my life because what else are you doin, you unvaccinated sucker" fatigue.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:08 PM on February 26, 2021 [11 favorites]
couple videoconferencing observations from the home office:
1. My eyebrows are HUGE in videoconferencing. Seriously they are like Muppet big. I can't stop wiggling them when I'm looking at myself on the screen.
2. My company has to use Skype For Business For Mac for various IT compliance reasons. SfBfMac is a crime against software but is useful for deflecting "why isn't your camera on?" requests. "Oh, skype crashes when I turn it on" is a credible thing to say because everyone knows Skype is garbage. Skype gets its revenge by auto adjusting my microphone so that my typing sounds like Thor's drunken tapdancing. Fuck you, Skype for Business.
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:15 PM on February 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
1. My eyebrows are HUGE in videoconferencing. Seriously they are like Muppet big. I can't stop wiggling them when I'm looking at myself on the screen.
2. My company has to use Skype For Business For Mac for various IT compliance reasons. SfBfMac is a crime against software but is useful for deflecting "why isn't your camera on?" requests. "Oh, skype crashes when I turn it on" is a credible thing to say because everyone knows Skype is garbage. Skype gets its revenge by auto adjusting my microphone so that my typing sounds like Thor's drunken tapdancing. Fuck you, Skype for Business.
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:15 PM on February 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
Everyone knows they turn their video off when they can, primarily so they can get away with working on something else while in a meeting. So everyone also knows that if they turn off their video in a meeting, everyone will assume they are getting on with something else, so they have to be careful who they do it in front of.
posted by biffa at 5:21 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by biffa at 5:21 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Your Honor, I am not a cat..."
I was listening to a professional webinar on Wednesday and did one of those long, really comfortable yawns that goes up from from coccyx to the tips of your fingers. Unfortunately when the content fell over and I logged in and out to get it back, it unmuted me. So all 200 people got the full sound effect, right over a silence in the Q&A. I wasn't even bored, I'd just been sitting about 3 hours and the sun was on me.
posted by biffa at 5:30 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
I was listening to a professional webinar on Wednesday and did one of those long, really comfortable yawns that goes up from from coccyx to the tips of your fingers. Unfortunately when the content fell over and I logged in and out to get it back, it unmuted me. So all 200 people got the full sound effect, right over a silence in the Q&A. I wasn't even bored, I'd just been sitting about 3 hours and the sun was on me.
posted by biffa at 5:30 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
You can hide your own video display if you don't want to see yourself on Zoom.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:36 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:36 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I wonder if the problems with Zoom meetings are not with Zoom, but with meetings.
I always had problems with meetings. I'd usually rather be working. In IBM, it was kind of cool that I could get out of a meeting if I had a customer call, because I could claim priority.
In my retired life, most of my time on Zoom is not in meetings, but in fun and/or personal stuff, and I love it.
But I recently got sucked into a community thing that has meetings, and I wish I had some customer calls to take.
posted by MtDewd at 5:40 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
I always had problems with meetings. I'd usually rather be working. In IBM, it was kind of cool that I could get out of a meeting if I had a customer call, because I could claim priority.
In my retired life, most of my time on Zoom is not in meetings, but in fun and/or personal stuff, and I love it.
But I recently got sucked into a community thing that has meetings, and I wish I had some customer calls to take.
posted by MtDewd at 5:40 PM on February 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
I just use one of the many pictures I have of our Icelandic horse as my profile pic, and tell folks I don't have a webcam. I also minimize the Brady Bunch grid when the meeting is in progress so I don't see anyone.
It makes Zoom calls much easier.
posted by moonbiter at 6:02 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
It makes Zoom calls much easier.
posted by moonbiter at 6:02 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
In terms of perceived distance to other attendees, it's not going to be a simple sum - sorta spitballin' here - as a result of the FOV of one's webcam versus one's eyes. In the way that an orthographic projection is the limit as the FOV goes to zero (sorta) and has no inferable distance, since webcams typically have an FOV less than human eyes, the perceived Zoom distance should be less than what might be indicated by the participant distances for a corresponding physical meeting.
Either way, it's super unnerving having a row of people looking directly at me given that I don't like running Zoom fullscreen.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:29 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Either way, it's super unnerving having a row of people looking directly at me given that I don't like running Zoom fullscreen.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:29 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Meetings are so stupid. There's always a Brad. Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. You said the complete thing. You can stop saying, now, because you are done. It is said, Brad. Stop. Talking. Brad. But he doesn't. Wall of Brad.
About the huge coworker faces in your face: you can squinch the Zoom window down tinytiny so that everybody is just a ittybitty blip. There is no need to let Zoom take over the entire screen.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:51 PM on February 26, 2021 [16 favorites]
About the huge coworker faces in your face: you can squinch the Zoom window down tinytiny so that everybody is just a ittybitty blip. There is no need to let Zoom take over the entire screen.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:51 PM on February 26, 2021 [16 favorites]
"squinch" is such a great word. I need to remember to use it more often.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:05 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:05 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been working from home off and on for over 12 years, and I can say, I miss the conference call! It's not the meetings so much (although more than 5 hours a day gets tiring), it's being chained to my computer, to my chair, looking nice, with an interested expression on my face. It's the tyranny of having to get up at 5:25 AM, donning a nice sweater, scarf, brushing my hair, and setting up in ring light, so I can look like a human being.
In the "old days," when I had a call like that, I'd fire up my laptop, and dial in from the reclining office, and could shut everything down and slide back into sleep when it was over. Or if a call was going on forever, I could pick up my phone and do a few laps around my home. Can't do that now.
BTW, I also stare at myself incessantly and am glad to know I am not the only one.
I do prefer working from home, Zoom and all. I just wish there was more flexibility about video vs. non-video communications. Or more emails and fewer meetings.
posted by dancing_angel at 7:27 PM on February 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
In the "old days," when I had a call like that, I'd fire up my laptop, and dial in from the reclining office, and could shut everything down and slide back into sleep when it was over. Or if a call was going on forever, I could pick up my phone and do a few laps around my home. Can't do that now.
BTW, I also stare at myself incessantly and am glad to know I am not the only one.
I do prefer working from home, Zoom and all. I just wish there was more flexibility about video vs. non-video communications. Or more emails and fewer meetings.
posted by dancing_angel at 7:27 PM on February 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
I have to take official meeting notes somewhat regularly over zoom since COVID, and not that taking detailed notes is ever "easy", but it's somehow WAY harder over zoom, even with headphones, etc. My brain just cannot follow the conversation the way I can sitting around a table.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:19 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:19 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I chair a lot of webinars, "consultations" and other meetings as part of my job and Zoom has made it easier to get participation from across different time zones. My board meetings in particular have gotten a lot easier since I discovered that I could uncheck the "allow participants to unmute themselves" box and eliminate 85 percent of the bloviating by the worst offenders. Those offenders also happen to be the ones who complain about Zoom the most.
On the other hand, I can't stop staring at myself and I'm reluctant to turn my self-view off for fear of forgetting the camera and doing something weird. Almost everybody I know says the same thing. I cope with it by inviting everyone to turn theirs off if they want to and doing the same myself if I'm not chairing. I default to old-fashioned phone calls with my team and established contacts.
I feel like I'm lucky to have this tool so that I can continue to do my job, but it definitely takes a toll.
posted by rpfields at 9:36 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, I can't stop staring at myself and I'm reluctant to turn my self-view off for fear of forgetting the camera and doing something weird. Almost everybody I know says the same thing. I cope with it by inviting everyone to turn theirs off if they want to and doing the same myself if I'm not chairing. I default to old-fashioned phone calls with my team and established contacts.
I feel like I'm lucky to have this tool so that I can continue to do my job, but it definitely takes a toll.
posted by rpfields at 9:36 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
My brain just cannot follow the conversation the way I can sitting around a table.
That's a very good point, and I've noticed the same thing in Zoom "get-togethers" with my friends. Back in the days when we were gathered around a table, there could be 2 or 3 conversations going on at once and you could hear (and dip in and out of) each one distinctly because of the 3D nature of the sounds coming from different places. On Zoom, there can only be one conversation at a time because the 3D aspect is completely lost since every sound comes from a single monophonic source; plus the inferiority of sound quality inherent to web conferences compared to IRL further degrades intelligibility and prevents the ability of more than one person at a time to be heard.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:38 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
That's a very good point, and I've noticed the same thing in Zoom "get-togethers" with my friends. Back in the days when we were gathered around a table, there could be 2 or 3 conversations going on at once and you could hear (and dip in and out of) each one distinctly because of the 3D nature of the sounds coming from different places. On Zoom, there can only be one conversation at a time because the 3D aspect is completely lost since every sound comes from a single monophonic source; plus the inferiority of sound quality inherent to web conferences compared to IRL further degrades intelligibility and prevents the ability of more than one person at a time to be heard.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:38 PM on February 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wasn't most of this known last year at the start of all this?
It's the lack of body language that's the worst. So much of our judgment of how we're doing when talking is from picking up on non-verbal cues like posture and gaze. Since our field of view is limited, our hindbrains are working overtime trying to piece together a picture of what's going on by scanning the contents of the Brady Bunch matrix.
This is why I have my camera off for most meetings. That and I have a shitty poker face so this has been a blessing of sorts. I can give into that temptation to roll my eyes when people start trying gaslighting me.
"This will only take one quarter of work!"
(muted) "Pull the other one, it's got bells on."
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:01 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's the lack of body language that's the worst. So much of our judgment of how we're doing when talking is from picking up on non-verbal cues like posture and gaze. Since our field of view is limited, our hindbrains are working overtime trying to piece together a picture of what's going on by scanning the contents of the Brady Bunch matrix.
This is why I have my camera off for most meetings. That and I have a shitty poker face so this has been a blessing of sorts. I can give into that temptation to roll my eyes when people start trying gaslighting me.
"This will only take one quarter of work!"
(muted) "Pull the other one, it's got bells on."
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:01 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Man, videoconferencing or choice calls is just easier than doing all this shit in person. 8 get that I'm not most people, but this list:
Excessive amounts of close-up eye gaze
Cognitive load
Increased self-evaluation from staring at video of oneself
Constraints on physical mobility
None of this shit applies more to videoconferencing than to IRL for me. The other way round, in fact:
Nobody can tell if there's eye contact, meaningful eye contact is in fact impossible via webcam. You can look wherever on screen, they can't really tell. They can look wherever on the screen, and I don't feel uncomfortable or obligated to look or not look in a particular manner. And even looking at someone's eyes on a screen doesn't burn my soul like it does in person. I don't get uncomfortable looking at Bruce Willis on the screen in Die Hard, and I don't get uncomfortable looking at you, it's the same thing. Now if you asked me to hang out with you (or Bruce Willis) in person, that would be uncomfortable.
The cognitive load is no different. Maybe even smaller? All the same cues and things you have to think about are also present in person, just some of them are limited to an extent when you're on webcam. I can mute myself if I need to make sounds. I only have to manage your perceptions of the parts of me that are in shot (meaning I can fiddle to my heart's content below the bottom of frame) which is already a win over talking in person. It helps that I have a fairly old and low-res webcam built into an old laptop maybe - I have to worry less about my appearance than I do in person.
And like, "increased self-evaluation" is something I don't think is possible. It's easier If anything for me to switch that off when I haven't got the pressure of another finnan being breathing a meter or two from my face. My brain does not force me to constantly worry about how other people are reading new, about how I appear when I watch Bruce Willis on a screen, and it doesn't force to care when I look at you on a screen. Not like if you were in the same room as me.
I've kinda already covered constraints on physical mobility: I can get away with lots more movement out of shot on a webcam meeting than I ever could in an in person meeting.
Everyone talking about finding looking at themselves distracting or uncomfortable, why not hide your cam feed from yourself? Or if Zoom or whatever crappy app you're using (why have the worst programs become so dominant in this space?) doesn't allow that, why not make a wee notepad or whatever text editor window to take notes in that just happens to be roughly the same shape and placement as your cam feed?
posted by Dysk at 10:07 PM on February 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
Excessive amounts of close-up eye gaze
Cognitive load
Increased self-evaluation from staring at video of oneself
Constraints on physical mobility
None of this shit applies more to videoconferencing than to IRL for me. The other way round, in fact:
Nobody can tell if there's eye contact, meaningful eye contact is in fact impossible via webcam. You can look wherever on screen, they can't really tell. They can look wherever on the screen, and I don't feel uncomfortable or obligated to look or not look in a particular manner. And even looking at someone's eyes on a screen doesn't burn my soul like it does in person. I don't get uncomfortable looking at Bruce Willis on the screen in Die Hard, and I don't get uncomfortable looking at you, it's the same thing. Now if you asked me to hang out with you (or Bruce Willis) in person, that would be uncomfortable.
The cognitive load is no different. Maybe even smaller? All the same cues and things you have to think about are also present in person, just some of them are limited to an extent when you're on webcam. I can mute myself if I need to make sounds. I only have to manage your perceptions of the parts of me that are in shot (meaning I can fiddle to my heart's content below the bottom of frame) which is already a win over talking in person. It helps that I have a fairly old and low-res webcam built into an old laptop maybe - I have to worry less about my appearance than I do in person.
And like, "increased self-evaluation" is something I don't think is possible. It's easier If anything for me to switch that off when I haven't got the pressure of another finnan being breathing a meter or two from my face. My brain does not force me to constantly worry about how other people are reading new, about how I appear when I watch Bruce Willis on a screen, and it doesn't force to care when I look at you on a screen. Not like if you were in the same room as me.
I've kinda already covered constraints on physical mobility: I can get away with lots more movement out of shot on a webcam meeting than I ever could in an in person meeting.
Everyone talking about finding looking at themselves distracting or uncomfortable, why not hide your cam feed from yourself? Or if Zoom or whatever crappy app you're using (why have the worst programs become so dominant in this space?) doesn't allow that, why not make a wee notepad or whatever text editor window to take notes in that just happens to be roughly the same shape and placement as your cam feed?
posted by Dysk at 10:07 PM on February 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
why not hide your cam feed from yourself?
I don’t know if others share this fear, but I’m worried that if I can’t see my cam feed I will accidentally show some part of my house that is not professional/look bad/somehow humiliate myself. I’m not gazing at myself out of vanity but more watching to ensure I don’t mess my performance up as attentive, professional coworker whose face is on constant display at close range. I have seen coworkers’ spouses in boxers and overheard household conversations and seen Zoom backgrounds give way to reveal messy rooms and although I do not judge that AT ALL I do *not* want my coworkers to see similar vulnerability since relationships are becoming more transactional and less human anyway.
posted by rogerroger at 10:33 PM on February 26, 2021 [24 favorites]
I don’t know if others share this fear, but I’m worried that if I can’t see my cam feed I will accidentally show some part of my house that is not professional/look bad/somehow humiliate myself. I’m not gazing at myself out of vanity but more watching to ensure I don’t mess my performance up as attentive, professional coworker whose face is on constant display at close range. I have seen coworkers’ spouses in boxers and overheard household conversations and seen Zoom backgrounds give way to reveal messy rooms and although I do not judge that AT ALL I do *not* want my coworkers to see similar vulnerability since relationships are becoming more transactional and less human anyway.
posted by rogerroger at 10:33 PM on February 26, 2021 [24 favorites]
I don’t know if others share this fear, but I’m worried that if I can’t see my cam feed I will accidentally show some part of my house that is not professional/look bad/somehow humiliate myself. I’m not gazing at myself out of vanity but more watching to ensure I don’t mess my performance up as attentive, professional coworker whose face is on constant display at close range.
I guess I don't get how this is different to being in a meeting in person? But then I sit with my back to a pain white wall, so I only have to worry about myself (in fact, it's an easier situation because I have the option of seeing how I look if I want to, whereas it would be weird to pull out a mirror in the middle of conversation in any other context).
posted by Dysk at 10:38 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I guess I don't get how this is different to being in a meeting in person? But then I sit with my back to a pain white wall, so I only have to worry about myself (in fact, it's an easier situation because I have the option of seeing how I look if I want to, whereas it would be weird to pull out a mirror in the middle of conversation in any other context).
posted by Dysk at 10:38 PM on February 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have so many thoughts about this. So many. Most of the team I work on is based in Europe, including my boss, so video calls aren't a new thing for us. I even took calls from home sometimes. But for the most part, the before times involved sitting in a conference room with other people and a video screen, or talking to people face to face. And if I was taking calls from home, my partner and I generally weren't doing so simultaneously in an NYC apartment.
This is worse. There are exponentially more calls now, because all of the meetings and incidental interactions that would have happened in the NY office have to happen online, too. Including socializing. So I am on calls on and off all day, including evenings. I am so burnt out and l I want to do is hide, which I do sometimes, but then I'm not keeping up with friends or with my mom, who is stuck alone in her apartment and is over 70 and had lung issues even before COVID and needs human contact.
Pre-COVID, I had to organize large multiple-day convenings, and it was really important to build as much time as possible into the agenda for coffee breaks and long meals, because that's when you actually reap the benefit of having people in the same place at the same time: people find each other, have side conversations, make plans, develop projects, settle differences, and build the personal relationships that make collaboration possible. That's gone now. As someone who's junior, I depended on the moments before or after office meetings, or in the kitchen or elevator, to ask questions, build relationships, and express my opinion. That's gone too. I'm often not called upon to speak during calls, so if I have my video on, I'm basically human window dressing. And if I turn it off people forget that I exist.
Which is not to mention the part where I'm taking most calls sitting on my bed with my laptop placed on my lap (burning it) or a pillow on my lap (overheating). I have to sit just so because I do not want people to see that I am in a bedroom. That's the only non-bathroom room in our apartment that has a door that closes, but I am deeply uncomfortable with inviting my coworkers into my personal space like that, and as a woman, really do not want colleagues associating my face with a bed. Seeing my own face the whole time I'm on video makes me exceptionally self-conscious, but forgoing that means not knowing what expression I'm making or what's in frame. On the bright side, NYC is no longer full of nonstop ambulance sirens / fireworks / ice cream trucks / helicopters, which makes it a lot easier to talk when I do get a chance.
Oh, and our company decided to announce a restructuring at the beginning of the year, with immediate 75% budget cuts and pending massive layoffs, with the plan for all of that TBD. Ordinarily, we'd cope with the information asymmetry and emotional strain by hanging out with one another and talking horizontally between departments. Video calls aren't great for either.
In conclusion, I'm almost looking forward to losing my job (and health insurance) because I just want it all to stop.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:48 PM on February 26, 2021 [22 favorites]
This is worse. There are exponentially more calls now, because all of the meetings and incidental interactions that would have happened in the NY office have to happen online, too. Including socializing. So I am on calls on and off all day, including evenings. I am so burnt out and l I want to do is hide, which I do sometimes, but then I'm not keeping up with friends or with my mom, who is stuck alone in her apartment and is over 70 and had lung issues even before COVID and needs human contact.
Pre-COVID, I had to organize large multiple-day convenings, and it was really important to build as much time as possible into the agenda for coffee breaks and long meals, because that's when you actually reap the benefit of having people in the same place at the same time: people find each other, have side conversations, make plans, develop projects, settle differences, and build the personal relationships that make collaboration possible. That's gone now. As someone who's junior, I depended on the moments before or after office meetings, or in the kitchen or elevator, to ask questions, build relationships, and express my opinion. That's gone too. I'm often not called upon to speak during calls, so if I have my video on, I'm basically human window dressing. And if I turn it off people forget that I exist.
Which is not to mention the part where I'm taking most calls sitting on my bed with my laptop placed on my lap (burning it) or a pillow on my lap (overheating). I have to sit just so because I do not want people to see that I am in a bedroom. That's the only non-bathroom room in our apartment that has a door that closes, but I am deeply uncomfortable with inviting my coworkers into my personal space like that, and as a woman, really do not want colleagues associating my face with a bed. Seeing my own face the whole time I'm on video makes me exceptionally self-conscious, but forgoing that means not knowing what expression I'm making or what's in frame. On the bright side, NYC is no longer full of nonstop ambulance sirens / fireworks / ice cream trucks / helicopters, which makes it a lot easier to talk when I do get a chance.
Oh, and our company decided to announce a restructuring at the beginning of the year, with immediate 75% budget cuts and pending massive layoffs, with the plan for all of that TBD. Ordinarily, we'd cope with the information asymmetry and emotional strain by hanging out with one another and talking horizontally between departments. Video calls aren't great for either.
In conclusion, I'm almost looking forward to losing my job (and health insurance) because I just want it all to stop.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:48 PM on February 26, 2021 [22 favorites]
It's just that I can't help thinking "zoom fatigue" is just what happens when you have nothing to do in your entire life except work (click on laptop, sit in zoom meetings), and things that are identical to work but unpaid (click on laptop, sit in zoom meetings with your family and friends) and you haven't done anything interesting in 12 months.
I could read and do exercises on a mat 18 hours a day and be deleriously happy. Zoom fatigue is real. I hate social zoom so much I refuse to go to any with more than 3 participants. More and it just drains the life out of me further after a day of calls.
posted by benzenedream at 11:36 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I could read and do exercises on a mat 18 hours a day and be deleriously happy. Zoom fatigue is real. I hate social zoom so much I refuse to go to any with more than 3 participants. More and it just drains the life out of me further after a day of calls.
posted by benzenedream at 11:36 PM on February 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
"squinch" is such a great word. I need to remember to use it more often.
I first saw this word used for a sound effect (i. e., not in a speech bubble) in an R Crumb comic more than 35 years ago.
You do not want the image it evokes in my mind in the minds' eyes of your readers or listeners.
Trust me on this.
posted by jamjam at 12:33 AM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
I first saw this word used for a sound effect (i. e., not in a speech bubble) in an R Crumb comic more than 35 years ago.
You do not want the image it evokes in my mind in the minds' eyes of your readers or listeners.
Trust me on this.
posted by jamjam at 12:33 AM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Everyone is talking about zoom fatigue, so it's nice if someone is trying to examine what's going on. I'm not entirely certain that a zoom meeting is more tiring than a real meeting, but when you meet in real space, there are a lot of little things you do to make each other feel better: give and receive smiles, pour up a cup of coffee and pass the cookies, joke and laugh at jokes. once a month, I attend a very long meeting, and normally we have a delicious takeout meal a couple of hours in. Nothing stops us from doing the same thing now, each at our own computer, but it doesn't feel the same. And jokes aren't the same: the other day, our chairperson tried to make a racy joke, and it came off as embarrassing and homophobic.
Specially when a discussion is hard.. during the last couple of weeks I've been on zoom meetings where one person on my team was very predictably a jerk. Normally, I'd be able to smile at the others, or otherwise indicate that it's ok, even though we are formally obligated to give this person time and space. Or I could interrupt gracefully, which is much harder online. Now... on the first day, I was frantically trying to reach our counterpart on the phone before the meeting, but they were busy. Jerk pontificated for an hour, and meeting ended unresolved leaving everyone (including Jerk) disappointed. Follow ups have barely helped.
Hilariously, Jerk mentioned the other day how personal connections were really important in deal-making, clearly seeing themself as master of the art.
At normal meetings, I can usually write a conclusion while we have a bathroom-break, and the group can then agree on it before the end of the day. For some reason, that feels almost impossible now. So meetings have to be followed up by papers circulating, delaying our work considerably.
I teach online, and I've been surprised to see that the exam results last spring and during the fall were better than usual. But those classes have been with students who were used to studying, they had a sense of where they were heading. Now I have second semester students, and a month in, I can see I am losing some of them, maybe up to a third. I'm going to try to do some individual supervision, but there are 70 students, I can't really coach them. I know more than half of them failed in an important class in their first semester, so now they are under pressure to succeed.
I haven't made a chart yet (might do just that during the week, in order to get ahead of it), but unfortunately, it seems like the students who are beginning to fail are those who are already at a disadvantage along class/race/gender lines. Students I know from experience often need to be reassured that they are respected and taken seriously in class.
posted by mumimor at 12:50 AM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Specially when a discussion is hard.. during the last couple of weeks I've been on zoom meetings where one person on my team was very predictably a jerk. Normally, I'd be able to smile at the others, or otherwise indicate that it's ok, even though we are formally obligated to give this person time and space. Or I could interrupt gracefully, which is much harder online. Now... on the first day, I was frantically trying to reach our counterpart on the phone before the meeting, but they were busy. Jerk pontificated for an hour, and meeting ended unresolved leaving everyone (including Jerk) disappointed. Follow ups have barely helped.
Hilariously, Jerk mentioned the other day how personal connections were really important in deal-making, clearly seeing themself as master of the art.
At normal meetings, I can usually write a conclusion while we have a bathroom-break, and the group can then agree on it before the end of the day. For some reason, that feels almost impossible now. So meetings have to be followed up by papers circulating, delaying our work considerably.
I teach online, and I've been surprised to see that the exam results last spring and during the fall were better than usual. But those classes have been with students who were used to studying, they had a sense of where they were heading. Now I have second semester students, and a month in, I can see I am losing some of them, maybe up to a third. I'm going to try to do some individual supervision, but there are 70 students, I can't really coach them. I know more than half of them failed in an important class in their first semester, so now they are under pressure to succeed.
I haven't made a chart yet (might do just that during the week, in order to get ahead of it), but unfortunately, it seems like the students who are beginning to fail are those who are already at a disadvantage along class/race/gender lines. Students I know from experience often need to be reassured that they are respected and taken seriously in class.
posted by mumimor at 12:50 AM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you’ve got serious levels of physical dysphoria, that self view is pretty awful. I usually hide it. I also never start meetings with camera on and frequently forget to turn it on, so much so my teammates don’t bother to remind me.
I don’t really enjoy the fact that while looking at the screen, everyone’s image is in my field of view, so it’s harder to tune out someone’s expressions who I don’t want to see. Also, the maximise-for-person talking view is somehow harder to defocus on than in person when you’re gritting your teeth and just smiling along.
posted by allium cepa at 2:51 AM on February 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don’t really enjoy the fact that while looking at the screen, everyone’s image is in my field of view, so it’s harder to tune out someone’s expressions who I don’t want to see. Also, the maximise-for-person talking view is somehow harder to defocus on than in person when you’re gritting your teeth and just smiling along.
posted by allium cepa at 2:51 AM on February 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Your Honor, I am not a cat..."
That cat, though. It was really a kitten, and it looked so shy and sad! Looking at it brought out some of the feelings I get when looking at cute animal photos or videos. I know it would take a ton of processing power, but maybe one day Zoom & co. will be able to filter everyone we're talking with into the cute animals of our choice, and meetings will be able to combine cognitive overload with cuteness overload and little bursts of oxytocin, and it'll be amazing.
posted by trig at 3:51 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
That cat, though. It was really a kitten, and it looked so shy and sad! Looking at it brought out some of the feelings I get when looking at cute animal photos or videos. I know it would take a ton of processing power, but maybe one day Zoom & co. will be able to filter everyone we're talking with into the cute animals of our choice, and meetings will be able to combine cognitive overload with cuteness overload and little bursts of oxytocin, and it'll be amazing.
posted by trig at 3:51 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Kind of shocked neither the paper nor this thread has mentioned lag. Meetings are so much harder when there are constant awkward pauses followed by two people starting to talk at the same time with no easy nonverbal way of sorting out who will continue.
posted by ropeladder at 4:28 AM on February 27, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by ropeladder at 4:28 AM on February 27, 2021 [18 favorites]
Though, I think we can all agree, open offices are still the worst and none of us want to go back to that.
About eight years ago, I joined a company that was hybrid remote/in office. Most of my team was distributed around the world so even though I did go into the office, more than half of my meeting time was in Google Hangouts with people in Oregon, Colorado, or Brazil. I feel like that hybrid experience helped condition some coping behaviors. I leave my camera on but I don't look at it straight on and I don't look at myself. Use a lot of chat and hand gestures to communicate and have sidebars without interrupting others. End meetings ten minutes early so you have buffer between chats because back to back to back Zooms really does wear one down. It's definitely different and it takes time to cope.
I left that job to work in a place that was intensely in office, and boy was that a hellscape. Noisy. Chaotic. We didn't have enough conference rooms so simply booking a meeting was a job in itself, and you spent so much time waiting for the previous meeting to end (likely because that meeting had to start late because the meeting before it also ended late, etc) that your entire schedule was a disaster.
Then I got this job that was fully remote and remember feeling the way that I could start my day in complete privacy and quiet was just bliss.
Pandemic meant that my wife and I had to get used to working around each other. While we had both previously had jobs with some work from home, we were not constantly around each other. We are also lucky in that we both have our own offices with doors that close, so we can keep our meetings separate but we have to be mindful of being quiet in the kitchen or watching a show during lunch if the other person is having a meeting. We never actually wind up having lunch together.
Despite all the conditioning, things that still feel hard and may always will be hard
- inability to have more than one conversation at a time, which we address with all of this new etiquette for signaling conversation turns, but is still new mental load
- all of the glitches and the lag and "you're breaking up" and "can you repeat what you just said? You froze for me. Everything after 'I just gave no--'." Granted dropped signals and poor connections were also a thing in phone calls, but ugh this is so much worse
- meetings with partners or other teams that have their own etiquette and/or don't do basic shit like mute themselves when they aren't talking and you all have to do the etiquette negotiation dance all over again.
I'm looking forward to getting past the pandemic so that Zoom isn't as big a part of my life. It will be good to see friends and family in person. It will be nice to have a meeting just calling in and walking around my neighborhood without a mask. It will be nice to cowork with some local colleagues at a cafe or someone's house. But I feel like a lot of our companies have turned a corner with work from home and this will always be a part of our professional lives from now on.
posted by bl1nk at 4:44 AM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
About eight years ago, I joined a company that was hybrid remote/in office. Most of my team was distributed around the world so even though I did go into the office, more than half of my meeting time was in Google Hangouts with people in Oregon, Colorado, or Brazil. I feel like that hybrid experience helped condition some coping behaviors. I leave my camera on but I don't look at it straight on and I don't look at myself. Use a lot of chat and hand gestures to communicate and have sidebars without interrupting others. End meetings ten minutes early so you have buffer between chats because back to back to back Zooms really does wear one down. It's definitely different and it takes time to cope.
I left that job to work in a place that was intensely in office, and boy was that a hellscape. Noisy. Chaotic. We didn't have enough conference rooms so simply booking a meeting was a job in itself, and you spent so much time waiting for the previous meeting to end (likely because that meeting had to start late because the meeting before it also ended late, etc) that your entire schedule was a disaster.
Then I got this job that was fully remote and remember feeling the way that I could start my day in complete privacy and quiet was just bliss.
Pandemic meant that my wife and I had to get used to working around each other. While we had both previously had jobs with some work from home, we were not constantly around each other. We are also lucky in that we both have our own offices with doors that close, so we can keep our meetings separate but we have to be mindful of being quiet in the kitchen or watching a show during lunch if the other person is having a meeting. We never actually wind up having lunch together.
Despite all the conditioning, things that still feel hard and may always will be hard
- inability to have more than one conversation at a time, which we address with all of this new etiquette for signaling conversation turns, but is still new mental load
- all of the glitches and the lag and "you're breaking up" and "can you repeat what you just said? You froze for me. Everything after 'I just gave no--'." Granted dropped signals and poor connections were also a thing in phone calls, but ugh this is so much worse
- meetings with partners or other teams that have their own etiquette and/or don't do basic shit like mute themselves when they aren't talking and you all have to do the etiquette negotiation dance all over again.
I'm looking forward to getting past the pandemic so that Zoom isn't as big a part of my life. It will be good to see friends and family in person. It will be nice to have a meeting just calling in and walking around my neighborhood without a mask. It will be nice to cowork with some local colleagues at a cafe or someone's house. But I feel like a lot of our companies have turned a corner with work from home and this will always be a part of our professional lives from now on.
posted by bl1nk at 4:44 AM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
There has to be a more humane user-friendly technology. I infrequently Zoom with two other friends and an hour is all I can take. I would rather just talk on the phone. I was speaking with someone on the phone who conducts yoga for geezers. She had no idea that since she is doing all the talking/instructing that her face is the only one every else sees. Some one develops an app and since it is not a money maker, then no one bothers to come up with anything superior.
posted by DJZouke at 5:51 AM on February 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by DJZouke at 5:51 AM on February 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Rpfields and rogerroger both explained for me why I don't hide self view. Paranoia that I will do something and not notice that I am doing it. That is probably why that setting is hard to find and rarely used.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:14 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:14 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
select "Hide Self-View."
I teach through Zoom, and because of equity concerns we are not allowed to require students (university) to have their cameras on (which I wouldn't do, regardless, unless necessary for instruction). But that means that, most days, if I hide self-view I'm not talking to anyone's face at all, and I don't trust myself to stay on track for a 75-minute presentation & activities if I'm just talking to my own computer screen and mic. Who knows what I'd end up talking about if left completely talking to myself...I might start a lecture about something something music and end up laughing about how great Ted Lasso is*, and in a class of 40 college students, maybe no one would tell me how far off-topic I'd gotten for a while. (And of course, watching myself while I teach is also weird and unhealthy.)
And the classes that are activity (performance-based) classes, well, trying to do those via Zoom has been and will continue to be farcical (the thing about a collaborative praxis--which is what music is--is that people have to be in the same physical space to do the thing together, so that whole aspect of teaching and learning, in any subject that is all or part praxis, has just been benched until the pandemic is over).
Meetings are so much harder when there are constant awkward pauses followed by two people starting to talk at the same time with no easy nonverbal way of sorting out who will continue.
I'm grateful for this in one regard: faculty meetings. This has finally made my colleagues learn to raise their hands when they want to speak, and seeing a bunch of professors actually wait their turn to talk is really lovely.
*- just in case you haven't seen it yet, Ted Lasso is sublime and brilliant and not the show you will expect it to be at all.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:34 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I teach through Zoom, and because of equity concerns we are not allowed to require students (university) to have their cameras on (which I wouldn't do, regardless, unless necessary for instruction). But that means that, most days, if I hide self-view I'm not talking to anyone's face at all, and I don't trust myself to stay on track for a 75-minute presentation & activities if I'm just talking to my own computer screen and mic. Who knows what I'd end up talking about if left completely talking to myself...I might start a lecture about something something music and end up laughing about how great Ted Lasso is*, and in a class of 40 college students, maybe no one would tell me how far off-topic I'd gotten for a while. (And of course, watching myself while I teach is also weird and unhealthy.)
And the classes that are activity (performance-based) classes, well, trying to do those via Zoom has been and will continue to be farcical (the thing about a collaborative praxis--which is what music is--is that people have to be in the same physical space to do the thing together, so that whole aspect of teaching and learning, in any subject that is all or part praxis, has just been benched until the pandemic is over).
Meetings are so much harder when there are constant awkward pauses followed by two people starting to talk at the same time with no easy nonverbal way of sorting out who will continue.
I'm grateful for this in one regard: faculty meetings. This has finally made my colleagues learn to raise their hands when they want to speak, and seeing a bunch of professors actually wait their turn to talk is really lovely.
*- just in case you haven't seen it yet, Ted Lasso is sublime and brilliant and not the show you will expect it to be at all.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:34 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's probably important to recognize the effects of crappy meetings outside of the effects of the software, and not attribute to software what can attributed to other factors. For example, I'm very fortunate in having a home office with three monitors, a nice mic, and a camera, but many of our people were not prepared, and we, as an organization had failed to prepare for remote work in our planning. There was a general undercurrent of hostility to teleworking and a long-time argument I'd made was that regular remote work was a preparation for disaster recovery and continuity of operations.
We didn't do it, and so many of our people didn't have good environments, or adequate hardware, or experience, to support remote work. In addition, we didn't have work habits and practices that acknowledged and facilitated remote work. We would have crappy meetings with weird configurations, but no-one in "central office" realized because they weren't on the receiving end.
All that aside, we still have crappy meetings without agendas that go right up to the hour, because we're still bad at meetings. My current quip is that if there's no agenda, I don't have to show up, but that's a bit like my recommendation that we ban email attachments. People chuckle nervously, but it seems to strike a chord.
posted by idb at 7:54 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
We didn't do it, and so many of our people didn't have good environments, or adequate hardware, or experience, to support remote work. In addition, we didn't have work habits and practices that acknowledged and facilitated remote work. We would have crappy meetings with weird configurations, but no-one in "central office" realized because they weren't on the receiving end.
All that aside, we still have crappy meetings without agendas that go right up to the hour, because we're still bad at meetings. My current quip is that if there's no agenda, I don't have to show up, but that's a bit like my recommendation that we ban email attachments. People chuckle nervously, but it seems to strike a chord.
posted by idb at 7:54 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
My current quip is that if there's no agenda, I don't have to show up, but that's a bit like my recommendation that we ban email attachments.
We would probably work together well. I advocate three rules for email: no attachments, if needed post in a shared folder or drive; if it's longer than 3-4 sentences, it should be verbal not written communication; and if possible, don't use email at all, because we have shared folders for docs and stuff, and Teams for questions and chat. Email should be for one-way communication only, announcements etc. Zoom has been an advantage in that it's much easier to say 'can we have a quick meeting about this soon?' instead of long, discursive email exchanges.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:29 AM on February 27, 2021
We would probably work together well. I advocate three rules for email: no attachments, if needed post in a shared folder or drive; if it's longer than 3-4 sentences, it should be verbal not written communication; and if possible, don't use email at all, because we have shared folders for docs and stuff, and Teams for questions and chat. Email should be for one-way communication only, announcements etc. Zoom has been an advantage in that it's much easier to say 'can we have a quick meeting about this soon?' instead of long, discursive email exchanges.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:29 AM on February 27, 2021
select "Hide Self-View."
Or else do as I do, have a little flap of paper taped on the laptop, to flip down as wanted.
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:00 AM on February 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Or else do as I do, have a little flap of paper taped on the laptop, to flip down as wanted.
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:00 AM on February 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
and if possible, don't use email at all
Really?? I'll take email any day over being obligated to respond immediately whenever anyone in the company wants to impose on me via Slack.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:56 AM on February 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Really?? I'll take email any day over being obligated to respond immediately whenever anyone in the company wants to impose on me via Slack.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:56 AM on February 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
I have a once-weekly Google Hangouts meeting with my work team, and my managers make sure it almost never goes over an hour (and frequently it ends after 40-50 minutes). Reading these stories of people's 6- or 8-hour daily Zoom meetings is shocking to me. How can anyone think that doing this is any way productive, or a good use of anyone's time? How can any organization even function on such a basis? Yikes.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:27 AM on February 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:27 AM on February 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
One of the joys of my Agency is how quickly they adapted to 100% telework unless one is mission critical. (I am, unfortunately, one of those people as these signed-and-stamped memo from AG Barr attests.) But! We are a bunch of accountants and financial analysts and managers, so while I may spend far more of my time in meetings now that I used to, we almost never have cameras on. We need to preserve bandwidth, right? Not because all of us know we are still in our PJs and would rather go back to our spreadsheets and programs.
My Division Chief refuses to hold meetings over Skype unless screens need to be shared, and that has trickled down to all of our sections. I spend a ridiculous amount of time holding meetings on my phone with speaker mode on as I work on a project, or stretch, or lounge in bed and think about the topics being discussed. Not, you know, folding laundry or closing my eyes and absorbing sunlight from my bedroom window. We'd never do that on government time.
I do miss the organic nature of in-face meetings. We spend more time talking over one another than normally, and a new Agency etiquette has formed around it. Everyone who can turn a meeting into an email does so, and other than the looming threat of *gestures to 2020 and 2021* my work has never been easier.
But man. Those family and friend zoom calls? I can't do it. I'm constantly fixing my hair, or adjusting my camera angle, or paranoid that my mic will pick up my burps. Especially with my three kids, because they fight over camera time and then want to tell Everyone Everything the Entire Time.
posted by gwydapllew at 11:41 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
My Division Chief refuses to hold meetings over Skype unless screens need to be shared, and that has trickled down to all of our sections. I spend a ridiculous amount of time holding meetings on my phone with speaker mode on as I work on a project, or stretch, or lounge in bed and think about the topics being discussed. Not, you know, folding laundry or closing my eyes and absorbing sunlight from my bedroom window. We'd never do that on government time.
I do miss the organic nature of in-face meetings. We spend more time talking over one another than normally, and a new Agency etiquette has formed around it. Everyone who can turn a meeting into an email does so, and other than the looming threat of *gestures to 2020 and 2021* my work has never been easier.
But man. Those family and friend zoom calls? I can't do it. I'm constantly fixing my hair, or adjusting my camera angle, or paranoid that my mic will pick up my burps. Especially with my three kids, because they fight over camera time and then want to tell Everyone Everything the Entire Time.
posted by gwydapllew at 11:41 AM on February 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Geez, this isn't new. Listen to neurodivergent and disability justice activists who have talked about the workplace's failure to address cognitive brain fog and differences in processing for YEARS.
posted by yueliang at 12:03 PM on February 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 12:03 PM on February 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
I've been teaching (university) on Zoom, and while I've learned to turn my self view off, I find the whole thing exhausting, in part because I'm struggling to watch for hands raised for question in both physical form and digital form and keep one eye on the chat and keep the discussion on track and also use the whiteboard to write down the key points coming out of the discussion and and and. It's really hard -- teaching was already like very advanced juggling, but it feels like now all the balls have suddenly become swords and they're also on fire and at the same time there are 20 kittens running around the floor under my feet, tugging at my shoelaces. I hate it, and my poor students do too. It's also difficult because apparently, when teaching, I'm not very good at tolerating classroom silence and I talk waaaaaaaay too much. Zoom exacerbates that tendency. I'm getting a little better, but it's definitely a problem.
posted by pleasant_confusion at 12:40 PM on February 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by pleasant_confusion at 12:40 PM on February 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've been teaching (university) on Zoom, and while I've learned to turn my self view off, I find the whole thing exhausting,
Have also been teaching (university) on zoom. Even in a small class that's historically mainly lecture-based, it's completely untenable long-term and if the administrative noises about "not wasting a crisis" crystallise into attempts to perpetuate online teaching (outside of existing distance-learning contexts) post-covid, or if (mandatory) pre-recorded lectures are not deleted as soon as safety no longer necessitates them, there will be hell to pay. I've always done a lot of work by video chat, but the students are not used to it, weirdly use the direct message feature to ask all their questions while refusing to say anything, and I babble into the void. It's terrible. Meetings are more okay, for me, though.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:01 PM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Have also been teaching (university) on zoom. Even in a small class that's historically mainly lecture-based, it's completely untenable long-term and if the administrative noises about "not wasting a crisis" crystallise into attempts to perpetuate online teaching (outside of existing distance-learning contexts) post-covid, or if (mandatory) pre-recorded lectures are not deleted as soon as safety no longer necessitates them, there will be hell to pay. I've always done a lot of work by video chat, but the students are not used to it, weirdly use the direct message feature to ask all their questions while refusing to say anything, and I babble into the void. It's terrible. Meetings are more okay, for me, though.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:01 PM on February 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is such an interesting paper. I have been experiencing such a range of reactions and feelings with respect to working with people remotely. It's interesting to understand some of the physiological stressors at play in video interactions.
Giving people permission to turn off their cameras is a nice option, but as facilitator or presenter of an online meeting, I find it increases my fatigue exponentially when I have no one to look at and am just staring back at my own image and/or whatever material I am sharing. Something about talking out into the ether is very disorienting and draining. I'm not someone who particularly likes the sound of my own voice or forcing people to sit through anything that isn't interesting to them, and once the cameras are off, people go into "receiving" mode, not "participating" mode. I don't like the idea of insisting on cameras on, but even having a couple people with their cameras on can make a huge difference to keeping me centred and animated. In those meetings where everyone has their cameras off, it seems to introduce a vicious cycle where I get more stressed, and my communication becomes more stilted, and no doubt others are getting bored. It's so much better when people are fully present in the virtual space with you.
I'm on a creative team, and we spend virtually our whole day in zoom, working on shared documents or a Mural board together (before Covid we would have been in front of a whiteboard all day). I have not found that to be overly taxing. I think it works for two reasons, one is that because we're sharing a live working space, the emphasis is more on the thing being worked on, with facial/visual cues being secondary to that. And the second reason is because my team members are all taking an equal responsibility for being active and present. I suspect it might be a skill that we have unconsciously built up over the past year, but it feels pretty effortless at this point.
posted by amusebuche at 8:34 PM on February 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Giving people permission to turn off their cameras is a nice option, but as facilitator or presenter of an online meeting, I find it increases my fatigue exponentially when I have no one to look at and am just staring back at my own image and/or whatever material I am sharing. Something about talking out into the ether is very disorienting and draining. I'm not someone who particularly likes the sound of my own voice or forcing people to sit through anything that isn't interesting to them, and once the cameras are off, people go into "receiving" mode, not "participating" mode. I don't like the idea of insisting on cameras on, but even having a couple people with their cameras on can make a huge difference to keeping me centred and animated. In those meetings where everyone has their cameras off, it seems to introduce a vicious cycle where I get more stressed, and my communication becomes more stilted, and no doubt others are getting bored. It's so much better when people are fully present in the virtual space with you.
I'm on a creative team, and we spend virtually our whole day in zoom, working on shared documents or a Mural board together (before Covid we would have been in front of a whiteboard all day). I have not found that to be overly taxing. I think it works for two reasons, one is that because we're sharing a live working space, the emphasis is more on the thing being worked on, with facial/visual cues being secondary to that. And the second reason is because my team members are all taking an equal responsibility for being active and present. I suspect it might be a skill that we have unconsciously built up over the past year, but it feels pretty effortless at this point.
posted by amusebuche at 8:34 PM on February 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
One thing that hasn't mentioned about cameras off: some of the meetings I'm in are supposed to be confidential. When people turn off their cameras and mics, you have no idea what else they are doing, and because humans make mistakes all the time, I've seen colleagues zooming from shared office spaces and even from public spaces. So for that type of meeting, I insist on seeing people's live faces. It can be hard to enforce, though.
posted by mumimor at 12:12 AM on February 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 12:12 AM on February 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
But I feel like a lot of our companies have turned a corner with work from home and this will always be a part of our professional lives from now on.
Oh, how I wish this was true... but working for a company with owners barely ever there themselves, they only see value in people if they're physically present. Because otherwise they'd be off golfing like the owners.
We're not a well run company, but I imagine a lot of people work for smaller companies like mine.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:26 PM on February 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh, how I wish this was true... but working for a company with owners barely ever there themselves, they only see value in people if they're physically present. Because otherwise they'd be off golfing like the owners.
We're not a well run company, but I imagine a lot of people work for smaller companies like mine.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:26 PM on February 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
And frankly I'm fine with that.
It's an interesting conundrum to try to figure out whether to go video or not on these things. I recall the paper described how visual cues aid greatly in coordinating speakers - knowing when to unmute and try to speak.
On the flip side, there are definitely a lot of people that would rather not see each other on camera - and it can be used punitively, trying to catch people not watching (schools are requiring kids to stay on camera for that reasons). There are definitely reasons for allowing people to leave their cameras off.
And back to the case FOR video (or at least, making it normal for some people, if not all, to use video):
In my case, and I suspect for many other people, using voice alone - with compression - can be problematic. I've learned to train my voice a great deal, but loss of higher frequencies caused by compression removes formants responsible for how my voice is read. For that matter, how many people's voices are read - particularly people with higher fundamental (or in my case, higher order) frequencies.
Video (or in person communications) adds a layer of identification that is very important for some of us. I've had to specifically request video one-on-one discussions during the pandemic when meeting people for the first time, rather than voice, in order to set the right first impression. I try very hard to avoid "meeting" someone for the first time on a cell phone call.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 11:18 AM on March 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's an interesting conundrum to try to figure out whether to go video or not on these things. I recall the paper described how visual cues aid greatly in coordinating speakers - knowing when to unmute and try to speak.
On the flip side, there are definitely a lot of people that would rather not see each other on camera - and it can be used punitively, trying to catch people not watching (schools are requiring kids to stay on camera for that reasons). There are definitely reasons for allowing people to leave their cameras off.
And back to the case FOR video (or at least, making it normal for some people, if not all, to use video):
In my case, and I suspect for many other people, using voice alone - with compression - can be problematic. I've learned to train my voice a great deal, but loss of higher frequencies caused by compression removes formants responsible for how my voice is read. For that matter, how many people's voices are read - particularly people with higher fundamental (or in my case, higher order) frequencies.
Video (or in person communications) adds a layer of identification that is very important for some of us. I've had to specifically request video one-on-one discussions during the pandemic when meeting people for the first time, rather than voice, in order to set the right first impression. I try very hard to avoid "meeting" someone for the first time on a cell phone call.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 11:18 AM on March 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Watching myself talk up close to a camera for nearly a year has made me break down and get botox and fillers for the first time. I am super distracted by my forehead wrinkles from being so expressive and my brow furrows from always being so confused, I guess?
It has been about a week and already, people have commented asking if I had a vacation or new makeup or something that they can't quite pinpoint. I wonder if we just aren't meant to be facially scrutinizing ourselves or others this up close for such long stretches. I feel that it triggers some odd feelings and insecurities.
posted by doktorj at 4:56 PM on March 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
It has been about a week and already, people have commented asking if I had a vacation or new makeup or something that they can't quite pinpoint. I wonder if we just aren't meant to be facially scrutinizing ourselves or others this up close for such long stretches. I feel that it triggers some odd feelings and insecurities.
posted by doktorj at 4:56 PM on March 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
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If a boss forced office employees to stand 2 feet apart and gaze directly at one another, that'd be considered workplace harassment. Do it over the Internet, and now it's standard operating procedure?
I knew I was right to feel creeped out by Zoom calls for work, but at least now I understand why.
posted by explosion at 1:23 PM on February 26, 2021 [49 favorites]