The Space Between Life and Death
March 7, 2021 3:25 AM   Subscribe

 
from the article:

by which he means not that we know what NDEs are, but that advances in science have allowed us to rule out a heap of things they are not. “There are physiological hypotheses that seem plausible theoretically,” he says, but none have stuck. Are feelgood chemicals, like endorphins, released into the body at the point of peril, creating euphoria? Does the brain become starved of oxygen, prompting real-seeming fantasies? Do various areas of the brain suddenly begin to work in concert to create strange, altered states? Nobody knows for sure. “We keep thinking, ‘Oh it’s got to be this,’” Greyson says. “No, the data doesn’t show that. ‘Oh, this then?’ Well, nope, the data doesn’t show that, either.”

cue the mysterious music ...
posted by philip-random at 8:00 AM on March 7, 2021 [2 favorites]


I wonder how many people who have unpleasant NDE's report the experience, considering how it might be interpreted?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:11 AM on March 7, 2021 [3 favorites]


I’ve had bad experiences, not with being nearly dead, but with people who go out of their way to pick a fight with me over it (‘How do you explain that, then?’) and then when I offer several reasonable explanations become gravely offended and say I’m accusing them or their dead relatives of being liars.
posted by Phanx at 9:26 AM on March 7, 2021 [4 favorites]


Of course the data shows unambiguously that Jesus is Lord.
posted by Phanx at 9:28 AM on March 7, 2021 [2 favorites]


Did you suddenly seem to understand everything? Did you feel a sense of harmony or unity with the universe?
When did you stop beating your wife?

I think it's neat that people are seriously studying this. And it could be a well-designed survey on the whole. This guy's work sounds interesting.

But, I also clearly remember things that absolutely could not have possibly happened, even regarding dull events that have no associated trauma. That contemporary science can't explain why I was able to fly in my backyard as a child is (sadly) not a failure of contemporary science. Assuming that the memory of an experience means that there was an actual experience seems like an important step that is always left out of laypersons' articles on this. Perhaps it's handled better in more specialized forums; I haven't looked.
posted by eotvos at 10:10 AM on March 7, 2021 [6 favorites]


Just came here to post that I am severely disappointed that the title for this FPP isn't just simply "Liminal Space."
posted by deadaluspark at 11:29 AM on March 7, 2021 [2 favorites]


Sometimes that moment of lucidity never comes, and for the rest of their life, your loved one speaks nonsense
posted by otherchaz at 12:23 PM on March 7, 2021 [4 favorites]


I have been with well over 100 human beings as they die. I've frequently been the one to close their eyes (or ask their beloveds if they'd like to perform this task.)
Terminal lucidity is real - I've often been in the room when it happens - and in my professional opinion many people "achieve" this state and take no action. By that I mean that they simply keep it to themselves.
I can't prove this - but I am often one of the last people they interact with and I can tell when someone shifts from simply "hearing" the words of the Psalms, or the Book of Revelation, into a space where they are "reflecting" on what they're hearing.
I don't know that this necessarily means anything - our brains are part of our physical bodies and, neat as they are, they are lumps of meat inside a dark bone box. Articles like these often reinforce the idea that we are unique or distinct from the rest of the cosmos and that's simply not the case (in my professional estimation.) If anything, liminal experiences like these probably tune people into the fact that they are not, in fact, distinct from the universe. Every point in the universe was, at one point, the center of the universe and this includes you and I.
I'm honored to witness these moments. They are important.
And I'm not surprised that cops and soldiers can't return to a career that involves hurting people.
When the dissociative experience occurs and you realize that there is quite literally *only* you - the cosmic you - the idea of hurting others becomes as repellant as self-harm or suicide.

Finally - I remember a post from years ago where this happy fellow had an NDE and sang a song about it, accompanied by an up-beat guitar - I think it was a youtube video?
I get it mixed up with the "It's not okay to be gay" song from that same time period. Can anybody remember the NDE guitar-song guy?

Maybe I hallucinated it.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:27 PM on March 7, 2021 [15 favorites]


I'm neither qualified nor much interested in commenting on the metaphysical aspects of all of this. But the second article, describing this state of "terminal lucidity" (or "paradoxical lucidity") felt true, albeit with (for me) a sample size of one. My dad passed away a few months ago; he'd been ill for quite a while and was no longer himself. He couldn't walk, his cognition was greatly diminished, and he needed help with basic tasks.

Two days before he died, after having been completely bedridden for a couple of days while we had gathered for what we understood to be a final vigil, he was suddenly himself again. He wanted to go downstairs and sit in his favorite chair. We helped him into his wheelchair and got him down the stairs, but just after the bottom he stood up and walked unassisted the last 10 feet to his chair and sat down. He was clearer than he'd been in weeks and his blood oxygen was suddenly much better, too. We conversed, he had a sip of his favorite whiskey, and we watched the golf game on TV (a favorite pastime of his).

He had dinner with us at the table that evening, but about two-thirds of the way through he became very tired and we had to feed him rather than him lifting a fork. We got him back upstairs with great difficulty. By the next morning he could barely speak, by midnight he was unconscious and he passed the next afternoon.

We were taken aback enough by this that during the few golden hours we started to have discussions about the logistics of what we'd do if he'd turned a corner and would live for many more days, weeks or months - who might stay or need to head back to work, and so on. We knew the stories enough, however, to also say, "On the other hand, this might be his final rally before the end," and that was exactly what it was.
posted by Chanther at 1:09 PM on March 7, 2021 [2 favorites]


A friend of mine had one, or convinced himself he did, when he was in the hospital with heart attack and kidney failure. He saw what he wanted to see, which was the Void.
posted by thelonius at 1:14 PM on March 7, 2021


I wonder if the lucidity comes partially from a mental state of preparedness. My only NDE was when I had heart issues and as I recall it went from "I hope the doctor brings the ECG machine soon" to "why do i feel bad and have tunnel visi" and then blackness.

I didn't expect it, and it happened suddenly, which is a different situation from someone who feels their body is failing and know this will be their last days, who will probably do a lot of thinking/hoping/dreaming about what will arrive soon.

There also might be a factor of where in the body death "starts" - I'm no doctor, but I suspect the progress of the body shutting down differs slightly when there's an abrupt loss of oxygen to the brain versus organ damage throughout the body over a longer period of time.
posted by ymgve at 1:40 PM on March 7, 2021 [1 favorite]


Given that Medieval NDEs did indeed show the firey torments of hell and purgatory (as well as the good bits of heaven), and purgatory officially does not exist theologically these days, I'm on team culture-bound mediation of neurological phenomenon.

I have dissociated once, under serious (but not in any way life-threatening) stress. I remember "being" about two feet behind myself, looking at the back of my head. I was still moving and doing things while this was going on. Possibly it was the endorphins that were missing, but this produced no spiritual, philosophical or personal revelations beyond "huh, that was weird", and a reflection that it was incredibly useful and functional at the time (that separation helped me keep doing things in that situation). A handy trick up the sleeve of the evolution of consciousness, and one that I'd wish I had volitional control of, except that I would definintely abuse it in boring meetings.
posted by Vortisaur at 8:05 AM on March 8, 2021 [2 favorites]


under serious (but not in any way life-threatening) stress

In this category, I was stressed by being trapped in a in a small, dark basement, knowing it would be 3 to 4 days before I would be discovered (long weekend, a worker had locked the doors and shut off the breakers). Had a penlight flashlight, so could spend some time reading, with breaks to let the battery build up.

A vivid illusion developed, where I had the impression that someone nondescript but vaguely familiar was sitting quietly nearby, out of sight, reading their own book. Not unpleasant, just kind of weird when it would dawn on me that I was alone.

I read later in some neuroscience article that there is something like a "sense-presence-of-nearby-people" module in the brain, that could be externally triggered in experiments, and they postulated that this illusion might have led to the belief in guardian angels and spirit entities.

Not unpleasant, if I could switch that on, I would sometimes.
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:47 AM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]


There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
— William Shakespeare, Hamlet
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on March 9, 2021 [3 favorites]


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