2.3 million
March 9, 2021 11:17 AM Subscribe
At a presentation, I pointed out a typo in one of the tables. "It says that more than 20 percent of young, black, male high-school dropouts are currently incarcerated. You mean 2 percent, right?" He looked at me like I was an idiot - which I was - and said, "No, that's accurate." The lifetime rate for the 1975 birth cohort of black male HS dropouts was about 70 percent.
At least it's improving; the U.S. prison population declined by 9 percent from 2009 to 2018.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:50 AM on March 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
At least it's improving; the U.S. prison population declined by 9 percent from 2009 to 2018.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:50 AM on March 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
Holy shit. This is shocking.
The amount of grifting of family and friends that goes on with our incarceration is also shocking. A friend served a year in the women's prison in Raleigh. Phone calls and commissary funds were priced at extortionary rates. I was able to order and send her books from Amazon as a direct shipper, and they were still allowing paper mail at that time. I don't know if that has changed.
posted by corvikate at 1:10 PM on March 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
The amount of grifting of family and friends that goes on with our incarceration is also shocking. A friend served a year in the women's prison in Raleigh. Phone calls and commissary funds were priced at extortionary rates. I was able to order and send her books from Amazon as a direct shipper, and they were still allowing paper mail at that time. I don't know if that has changed.
posted by corvikate at 1:10 PM on March 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Citing supposed risks of contraband being smuggled in paper books, several prisons are looking to move to ebooks.
Which sounds nice, rigth?
But of course they're doing the same mega-exploitation deal with the ebooks that they do with everything else. Insanely overpriced ebook readers that charge by the minute, preposterously overpriced ebooks with an extremely limited selection.
Don't count on being able to send books to prisoners much longer. The sharks have smelled a bit more profit to wring out of prisoners and their families and they're after it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:16 PM on March 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
Which sounds nice, rigth?
But of course they're doing the same mega-exploitation deal with the ebooks that they do with everything else. Insanely overpriced ebook readers that charge by the minute, preposterously overpriced ebooks with an extremely limited selection.
Don't count on being able to send books to prisoners much longer. The sharks have smelled a bit more profit to wring out of prisoners and their families and they're after it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:16 PM on March 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
No other country on earth incarcerates so many people without trial. While many countries around the world have rushed to adopt American style plea bargaining in recent years, not a single one uses it for such a large portion of cases. [7]
what do you mean without a trail? Shocking
posted by greenhornet at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2021
what do you mean without a trail? Shocking
posted by greenhornet at 1:18 PM on March 9, 2021
The primary solution the rest of the Western world has tried: a robust social safety net, including free healthcare. When people aren't desperate for money they tend to commit fewer crimes, and aren't in demographics that can be framed as easily by police. Then there's the whole race thing, the USA law code was concieved and maintained in order to keep slaves down and it's still doing that through prison labour.
As a Canadian, I'm still watching to see if the USA can recover from being a failed state by any rational measure of how it treats its citizens. There are a few promising signs, but not nearly enough.
posted by PennD at 1:21 PM on March 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
As a Canadian, I'm still watching to see if the USA can recover from being a failed state by any rational measure of how it treats its citizens. There are a few promising signs, but not nearly enough.
posted by PennD at 1:21 PM on March 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
INVEST IN PREVENTION
posted by aniola at 1:58 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aniola at 1:58 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
greenhornet, a plea bargain means the defendant pleads guilty to a lesser offense to avoid waiting for a trial and to avoid the risk of a longer sentence.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:21 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:21 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
They talk about 60 days in jail ruining a life, but even just a day can do that. A guy who I was temping with was picked up on a bench warrant while walking his dog. He missed a day of work, couldn't call in because he was in jail. Fired as a no-show no-call. Didn't matter that the bench warrant was, by definition, for a misdemeanor and he never would have been stopped if he wasn't Black. Didn't matter that he was a better tech than I or most of the permanent staff there. His job was gone because a cop had to make his numbers and started randomly questioning Black guys walking dogs. He most likely plead guilty, got a fine and a criminal record and now has a record of being fired with cause from his job.
I never got to ask, because I wasn't close enough with him to have any way of contacting him out of work, but given the kind of guy he was, it was probably for non-payment of a fine or because he'd been busted with pot. Either way, not something anyone should lose their job over.
posted by Hactar at 3:00 PM on March 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
I never got to ask, because I wasn't close enough with him to have any way of contacting him out of work, but given the kind of guy he was, it was probably for non-payment of a fine or because he'd been busted with pot. Either way, not something anyone should lose their job over.
posted by Hactar at 3:00 PM on March 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
Was the dog OK? A friend of mine got evicted once and they just put his cat in the city shelter, where it would be euthanized fairly soon. We had to get the money together for him to retrieve the cat.
posted by thelonius at 3:39 PM on March 9, 2021
posted by thelonius at 3:39 PM on March 9, 2021
it would be better to frame this issue in light of misdemeanors versus felonies, or violent versus nonviolent crimes. i recognize that not all states define these terms the same, but it would be a useful rough metric.
a lot of debate about penal reform glosses over this or leads people to assume most people are incarcerated for drug crimes. at least when it comes to felonies and longer sentences, that's not true.
i'm not saying punishments for violent crimes shouldnt be reformed too, but people should know and grapple with what it would mean to de-incarcerate people who committed violent acts, or decriminalize or reduce punishments for violent acts. may well be worth doing, but if you asked the average US voter about criminal justice reform, the first thing most people think of is often marijuana use.
posted by wibari at 3:43 PM on March 9, 2021
a lot of debate about penal reform glosses over this or leads people to assume most people are incarcerated for drug crimes. at least when it comes to felonies and longer sentences, that's not true.
i'm not saying punishments for violent crimes shouldnt be reformed too, but people should know and grapple with what it would mean to de-incarcerate people who committed violent acts, or decriminalize or reduce punishments for violent acts. may well be worth doing, but if you asked the average US voter about criminal justice reform, the first thing most people think of is often marijuana use.
posted by wibari at 3:43 PM on March 9, 2021
Go ahead and Google "US nonviolent prison population."
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:25 PM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:25 PM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I know people who believe that crime deserves punishment. I was one. I now believe that transgression is healed through reconciliation and restitution. But I have not had first-hand experience being victimized by crime that people would go to jail for.
I changed my mind because of stories like this. Showing the implementation of moral beliefs. Making me question if the cure was worse than the illness.
posted by rebent at 4:37 PM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I changed my mind because of stories like this. Showing the implementation of moral beliefs. Making me question if the cure was worse than the illness.
posted by rebent at 4:37 PM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Thank you for sharing that rebent.
posted by latkes at 5:52 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 5:52 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
it would be better to frame this issue in light of misdemeanors versus felonies, or violent versus nonviolent crimes.
How exactly would that be better? Felony drug possession is still a thing. Getting in weekly bar fights might never land you with more than a misdemeanor in many jurisdictions. Not all violent crime is the same. I don't know a ton about Prison Policy Initiative but I found this report pretty interesting.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:44 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
How exactly would that be better? Felony drug possession is still a thing. Getting in weekly bar fights might never land you with more than a misdemeanor in many jurisdictions. Not all violent crime is the same. I don't know a ton about Prison Policy Initiative but I found this report pretty interesting.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:44 PM on March 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
How exactly would that be better?
how exactly? because, while yes there is definitely such a thing as felony drug possession and misdemeanor battery, in general it would aid the political discussion in the US if criminal justice reform pivoted to a discussion of more serious crimes rather than minor ones. the reason why is that more serious crimes are where the real number of total years remaining on sentences are. and that should be one of the main questions posed to voters, which hasnt been so far, given the vast majority of attention on minor crimes to date.
posted by wibari at 8:25 PM on March 9, 2021
how exactly? because, while yes there is definitely such a thing as felony drug possession and misdemeanor battery, in general it would aid the political discussion in the US if criminal justice reform pivoted to a discussion of more serious crimes rather than minor ones. the reason why is that more serious crimes are where the real number of total years remaining on sentences are. and that should be one of the main questions posed to voters, which hasnt been so far, given the vast majority of attention on minor crimes to date.
posted by wibari at 8:25 PM on March 9, 2021
OK, let's.
There are two major, and one minor, acceptable moral justifications for incarceration: incapacitation and deterrence; and demonstrating that the state recognizes the injury to the victim.
Let's say we put a cap of 25 years on any sentence. We know that incidence of crime, for most crimes, drops off steadily as one clears one's mid-20s and gets quite low by the 40s. If you take the youngest defendant who should be tried as an adult, an 18-year-old, and give him a 25-year sentence, he won't be out til his mid-40s. At which time he is far far less likely to reoffend.
It's difficult to believe that there's any meaningful difference in deterrence between a 25-year sentence and, say, a 66-year one. If you're taking the prison term into consideration at all while committing the crime, the former will be sufficient. (Clearly, most people aren't.) And 25 years is still a lot. If a victim is likely to recognize any sentence as reflecting a sense of injury on their behalf (some never do), 25 years is likely to be enough.
As it is, we have whole prison wards full of (mostly) men in their 50s and 60s, who aren't a danger to anyone, who we must pay extraordinary amounts of money to keep fed and housed, who we make only token efforts to care for medically. These numbers are only growing. To what end? None.
We also have prisons full of young men in their 20s who think they have nothing to live for and therefore no reason to try to better themselves in any way (or to follow prison rules except as he's battered into it). An ex-con in his mid-40s will still have a difficult life ahead of him, but he will have a life. As he gets older, especially, he will actually have a reason to try to engage in rehabilitation and education.
Let's take the money saved and plow it back into the communities that supply the majority of the prisoners now, to try to stem that flow.
posted by praemunire at 9:24 PM on March 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are two major, and one minor, acceptable moral justifications for incarceration: incapacitation and deterrence; and demonstrating that the state recognizes the injury to the victim.
Let's say we put a cap of 25 years on any sentence. We know that incidence of crime, for most crimes, drops off steadily as one clears one's mid-20s and gets quite low by the 40s. If you take the youngest defendant who should be tried as an adult, an 18-year-old, and give him a 25-year sentence, he won't be out til his mid-40s. At which time he is far far less likely to reoffend.
It's difficult to believe that there's any meaningful difference in deterrence between a 25-year sentence and, say, a 66-year one. If you're taking the prison term into consideration at all while committing the crime, the former will be sufficient. (Clearly, most people aren't.) And 25 years is still a lot. If a victim is likely to recognize any sentence as reflecting a sense of injury on their behalf (some never do), 25 years is likely to be enough.
As it is, we have whole prison wards full of (mostly) men in their 50s and 60s, who aren't a danger to anyone, who we must pay extraordinary amounts of money to keep fed and housed, who we make only token efforts to care for medically. These numbers are only growing. To what end? None.
We also have prisons full of young men in their 20s who think they have nothing to live for and therefore no reason to try to better themselves in any way (or to follow prison rules except as he's battered into it). An ex-con in his mid-40s will still have a difficult life ahead of him, but he will have a life. As he gets older, especially, he will actually have a reason to try to engage in rehabilitation and education.
Let's take the money saved and plow it back into the communities that supply the majority of the prisoners now, to try to stem that flow.
posted by praemunire at 9:24 PM on March 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
One ancillary change that would be helpful is the abolishment of asset forfeiture. In many states, you don't even need to be convicted to lose everything you own. You only need to be charged. That's quite the profit motive on the part of law enforcement.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:16 AM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:16 AM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've been on a bit of a reading tear about prisons and our carceral system. The most powerful so far were:
Are Prisons Obsolete. A quick read that, among other things, argues that that the concept of 'reform' is central to the institution of incarceration and is in practice a barrier to the only moral solution: prison abolition. ('Penitentiaries' were a 'reform' from the old system of corporal punishment - a place where people were supposed to be penitent and, through quiet contemplation, change their supposedly criminal ways. A couple hundred years later this system of penitence has evolved into the largest warehouse of human beings in the world.)
The New Jim Crow persuasively argues that incarceration and the larger system of policing, parole, prisons and surveillance function as a mechanism of control of Black people that is very much a continuation of Jim Crow and before that slavery - that when mass movements successfully overthrew these previous systems of control, the systems transformed to effectively enforce an anti-Black caste system whether it is in name about race or not.
I'd urge folks who want to continue our harsh punishment regime for 'violent crime' to read some John Pfaff. In his words: "If we freed everyone in prison tomorrow except that 25 percent who are there for murder, manslaughter or sexual assault, we’d still have an incarceration rate higher than that of almost every European country. Any effort to normalize our outsize reliance on incarceration will have to move past drugs."
My own thinking about 'violent crime' changed when I was in a meeting with Tamisha Torres-Walker and she talked about the way we 'reformers' are part of reinforcing the marginalization of this extremely broad category of people. I also correspond with a man who has been in prison for decades for a violent action he took in his late teens. I am not the person I was at 19. None of us are. Nor is there any evidence that prison effectively reduces violent behavior. Quite the opposite.
posted by latkes at 9:43 AM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Are Prisons Obsolete. A quick read that, among other things, argues that that the concept of 'reform' is central to the institution of incarceration and is in practice a barrier to the only moral solution: prison abolition. ('Penitentiaries' were a 'reform' from the old system of corporal punishment - a place where people were supposed to be penitent and, through quiet contemplation, change their supposedly criminal ways. A couple hundred years later this system of penitence has evolved into the largest warehouse of human beings in the world.)
The New Jim Crow persuasively argues that incarceration and the larger system of policing, parole, prisons and surveillance function as a mechanism of control of Black people that is very much a continuation of Jim Crow and before that slavery - that when mass movements successfully overthrew these previous systems of control, the systems transformed to effectively enforce an anti-Black caste system whether it is in name about race or not.
I'd urge folks who want to continue our harsh punishment regime for 'violent crime' to read some John Pfaff. In his words: "If we freed everyone in prison tomorrow except that 25 percent who are there for murder, manslaughter or sexual assault, we’d still have an incarceration rate higher than that of almost every European country. Any effort to normalize our outsize reliance on incarceration will have to move past drugs."
My own thinking about 'violent crime' changed when I was in a meeting with Tamisha Torres-Walker and she talked about the way we 'reformers' are part of reinforcing the marginalization of this extremely broad category of people. I also correspond with a man who has been in prison for decades for a violent action he took in his late teens. I am not the person I was at 19. None of us are. Nor is there any evidence that prison effectively reduces violent behavior. Quite the opposite.
posted by latkes at 9:43 AM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
latkes: “John Pfaff. In his words: "If we freed everyone in prison tomorrow except that 25 percent who are there for murder, manslaughter or sexual assault, we’d still have an incarceration rate higher than that of almost every European country. Any effort to normalize our outsize reliance on incarceration will have to move past drugs."”Our outsized reliance on incarceration begins with our outsized reliance on violence. The very nature of the judicial system in this country is violent at its core. Violence is fundamental to every level of government right down to the local school board. Every commercial relationship has its basis in violence. I have no idea how to fix it, but it's a major portion of what's wrong with everything here.
posted by ob1quixote at 11:18 AM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by latkes at 11:19 AM on March 9, 2021 [2 favorites]