it’s like having a neighbour who’s really into clowns
March 10, 2021 12:18 PM Subscribe
'Only one of those things has a future, and it’s the one with the Netflix deal." Patrick Freyne on Meghan, Harry, and Oprah. (SLIrishTimes)
Freyne previously.
Freyne previously.
I’d like to see the ol Windsor family wriggle its way out of THIS jam!
posted by Going To Maine at 12:29 PM on March 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 12:29 PM on March 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
Honestly, the royal family is going to be fine. They aren't going to be damaged by this interview in any way that actually matters to them. They don't care how Americans feel about them. They have dealt with plenty of bad interviews over the past 35 years. Diana and Martin Bashir didn't ruin them. Not even the disastrous Emily Maitlis/Prince Andrew interview has stopped them. They will go on. Just another good old regular annus horribilis.
posted by all about eevee at 12:45 PM on March 10, 2021 [32 favorites]
posted by all about eevee at 12:45 PM on March 10, 2021 [32 favorites]
Irish Post helpfully explains: Who is Oprah Winfrey and how did she land the Harry and Meghan interview?
posted by migurski at 12:53 PM on March 10, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by migurski at 12:53 PM on March 10, 2021 [18 favorites]
I love the first two paragraphs and shared them with friends.
The piece makes other nice points, too.
It also seems a bit much, at times, doesn't it? He's rather in love with his chip of chalk and the square of slate he's been afforded. Listen to this:
posted by Caxton1476 at 12:59 PM on March 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
The piece makes other nice points, too.
It also seems a bit much, at times, doesn't it? He's rather in love with his chip of chalk and the square of slate he's been afforded. Listen to this:
“Did you blindside the queen?” asks Oprah, conjuring up an image of Harry sucker-punching her with a karate chop. As if that would be possible. I picture the wily nonagenarian counterpunching with the royal dagger between her teeth.There's a fair case to be made that, with the royals in one's crosshairs, one could never really go over the top. But this smacks of a writer unleashing turns of phrase that have been waiting in his quiver for that really special piece.
posted by Caxton1476 at 12:59 PM on March 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
They don't care how Americans feel about them.
I wouldn't be shocked if there more people in the US with a favorable view of the royals than their are from within
the UK itself. Americans keep the balance of "these useless leeches at least bring in enough tourist money to make them worth while" alive.
posted by sideshow at 1:05 PM on March 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't be shocked if there more people in the US with a favorable view of the royals than their are from within
the UK itself. Americans keep the balance of "these useless leeches at least bring in enough tourist money to make them worth while" alive.
posted by sideshow at 1:05 PM on March 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
Honestly, the royal family is going to be fine.
The next time the people of America go to the polls to elect a British monarch they're in real trouble though.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:05 PM on March 10, 2021 [26 favorites]
The next time the people of America go to the polls to elect a British monarch they're in real trouble though.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 1:05 PM on March 10, 2021 [26 favorites]
Love the writing and critique of empire in this piece!
They serve entirely to enshrine classism in the British nonconstitution. They live in high luxury and low autonomy, cosplaying as their ancestors, and are the subject of constant psychosocial projection from people mourning the loss of empire.posted by spamandkimchi at 1:09 PM on March 10, 2021 [43 favorites]
It has certainly added fuel to the perennial question of whether to ditch the monarchy in Canada, among other Commonwealth nations. If I was a betting man, I'd bet the house that no political party would touch the issue in Canada. Much to our detriment, I really don't see any benefit to the royals but plenty of downsides.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:19 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 1:19 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
Honestly, the royal family is going to be fine. They aren't going to be damaged by this interview in any way that actually matters to them. They don't care how Americans feel about them.
We'll be back, time will tell.
posted by straight at 1:20 PM on March 10, 2021 [29 favorites]
We'll be back, time will tell.
posted by straight at 1:20 PM on March 10, 2021 [29 favorites]
‘We’re just regular rich folk, Oprah, no different from you or Tom Hanks or Jeff Bezos’
That is a fantastic line.
posted by straight at 1:23 PM on March 10, 2021 [39 favorites]
That is a fantastic line.
posted by straight at 1:23 PM on March 10, 2021 [39 favorites]
It also seems a bit much, at times, doesn't it? He's rather in love with his chip of chalk and the square of slate he's been afforded.
That is just Hiberno-Irish style when it gets going.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 1:33 PM on March 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
That is just Hiberno-Irish style when it gets going.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 1:33 PM on March 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
Americans keep the balance of "these useless leeches at least bring in enough tourist money to make them worth while" alive.
“God save the queen
'Cause tourists are money!”
posted by TedW at 1:40 PM on March 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
“God save the queen
'Cause tourists are money!”
posted by TedW at 1:40 PM on March 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
That is just Hiberno-Irish style when it gets going.
I am, I suppose, Irish-Canadian. Living next door to a clown as head of state is something I think I am learned how to grasp recently.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:47 PM on March 10, 2021 [21 favorites]
I am, I suppose, Irish-Canadian. Living next door to a clown as head of state is something I think I am learned how to grasp recently.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:47 PM on March 10, 2021 [21 favorites]
Diana and Martin Bashir didn't ruin them. Not even the disastrous Emily Maitlis/Prince Andrew interview has stopped them.
I don't know that it's so much a matter of being "ruined" or "stopped" so much as "quietly cut loose from any sort of official function or support." Contrary to the quote from J. Lydon above, an actual more-or-less-functioning living royalty isn't necessary for tourism; Elvis has been dead since 1977, but Graceland is doing just fine. (Actually better; like Michael Jackson, Elvis' estate became much more valuable when its originator wasn't burning through money literally as fast as he made it.) The current reigning monarch will probably get a pass for the rest of her life, simply because almost all living Britons have known no other (it would be interesting to figure out how many of them literally lived their entire lives under her reign), but I don't think that Charles will inherit but a tiny sliver of her popularity.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:49 PM on March 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
I don't know that it's so much a matter of being "ruined" or "stopped" so much as "quietly cut loose from any sort of official function or support." Contrary to the quote from J. Lydon above, an actual more-or-less-functioning living royalty isn't necessary for tourism; Elvis has been dead since 1977, but Graceland is doing just fine. (Actually better; like Michael Jackson, Elvis' estate became much more valuable when its originator wasn't burning through money literally as fast as he made it.) The current reigning monarch will probably get a pass for the rest of her life, simply because almost all living Britons have known no other (it would be interesting to figure out how many of them literally lived their entire lives under her reign), but I don't think that Charles will inherit but a tiny sliver of her popularity.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:49 PM on March 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
this smacks of a writer unleashing turns of phrase that have been waiting in his quiver for that really special piece.
That very well could be, but I doubt I've ever seen a more apt, more succinct diagnosis of the Woes of the Windsors than this:
That very well could be, but I doubt I've ever seen a more apt, more succinct diagnosis of the Woes of the Windsors than this:
They live in high luxury and low autonomy, cosplaying as their ancestors, and are the subject of constant psychosocial projection from people mourning the loss of empire.posted by tclark at 1:50 PM on March 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
But this smacks of a writer unleashing turns of phrase that have been waiting in his quiver for that really special piece.
Not really. He writes at this level every week, it’s just usually about Irish tv programmes of no interest to a wider audience.
posted by distorte at 1:53 PM on March 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
Not really. He writes at this level every week, it’s just usually about Irish tv programmes of no interest to a wider audience.
posted by distorte at 1:53 PM on March 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
If I was a betting man, I'd bet the house that no political party would touch the issue in Canada.
The NDP weighed in yesterday. Trudeau said "La la la we're not going to have this conversation right now!"
posted by kitcat at 1:54 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
The NDP weighed in yesterday. Trudeau said "La la la we're not going to have this conversation right now!"
posted by kitcat at 1:54 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
The mood in Australia is that a republic is inevitable, we're just waiting for the Queen to, er, stop being a queen. In a permanent fashion, if you know what I mean.
posted by adept256 at 1:59 PM on March 10, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 1:59 PM on March 10, 2021 [18 favorites]
There’s a “Now is the Windsor of our discontent” parody to be made, but they really threw a wrench in it by moving to California instead of New York.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:00 PM on March 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:00 PM on March 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
If anything is going to bring down the house of Windsor in the forseeable future, it's going to be Charles III.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:01 PM on March 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:01 PM on March 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
I look forward to what Meghan and Harry will accomplish in the future that is positive for humanity.
posted by waving at 2:04 PM on March 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by waving at 2:04 PM on March 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm not much of a John Oliver fan, too smug for my tastes, but here he basically sums up the roundhead position most Brits seem to have taken, more or less. Still, the US almost elected a German dictator/game show host, so we're probably not in a place to laugh at the UK too loudly for keeping royalty around.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:30 PM on March 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:30 PM on March 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Freyne deserves one of those slow-clap builds to a standing ovation for this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:32 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:32 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
If anything is going to bring down the house of Windsor in the forseeable future, it's going to be Charles III
I dunno on balance things worked out pretty good for his namesakes
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:33 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
I dunno on balance things worked out pretty good for his namesakes
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:33 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
I look forward to what Meghan and Harry will accomplish in the future that is positive for humanity.
I'm indifferent to that, but I do have a plan for them. They stick around in the USA for a few years making enormous sums of money. They move back to the UK in time for Archie and sister to attend Eton and Oxford. One or both of the children runs for parliament and then becomes prime minister. Then they get to have those prime minister kowtows to the queen audiences we learned about on The Queen and The Crown with their great grandmother (who clearly does not intend ever to be troubled to take the time and effort to die).
posted by Don Pepino at 2:37 PM on March 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm indifferent to that, but I do have a plan for them. They stick around in the USA for a few years making enormous sums of money. They move back to the UK in time for Archie and sister to attend Eton and Oxford. One or both of the children runs for parliament and then becomes prime minister. Then they get to have those prime minister kowtows to the queen audiences we learned about on The Queen and The Crown with their great grandmother (who clearly does not intend ever to be troubled to take the time and effort to die).
posted by Don Pepino at 2:37 PM on March 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
@AllusionistShow: check out these verb constructions. Not even the royal we, it’s the royal passive voice.
posted by signal at 2:49 PM on March 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by signal at 2:49 PM on March 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
I dunno on balance things worked out pretty good for his namesakes
Somebody get that man some wigs.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:53 PM on March 10, 2021
Somebody get that man some wigs.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:53 PM on March 10, 2021
Honestly, the royal family is going to be fine.
Sure, while QEII is still alive. I think it's going to be a lot rougher for the Firm when she's gone.
posted by Pendragon at 2:59 PM on March 10, 2021 [7 favorites]
Sure, while QEII is still alive. I think it's going to be a lot rougher for the Firm when she's gone.
posted by Pendragon at 2:59 PM on March 10, 2021 [7 favorites]
If anything is going to bring down the house of Windsor in the forseeable future, it's going to be Charles III.
He won’t be in office that long.
posted by Melismata at 3:00 PM on March 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
He won’t be in office that long.
posted by Melismata at 3:00 PM on March 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
The mood in Australia is that a republic is inevitable, we're just waiting for the Queen to, er, stop being a queen. In a permanent fashion, if you know what I mean.
OTOH, Australia has a permanent conservative government federally, buttressed by its place at the heart of the Murdosphere. I expect it would hold onto the House of Windsor for as long as England does, and wouldn't put it past it doing so slightly longer, with there being a few weeks when England is a republic but Australia a constitutional monarchy.
posted by acb at 3:12 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
OTOH, Australia has a permanent conservative government federally, buttressed by its place at the heart of the Murdosphere. I expect it would hold onto the House of Windsor for as long as England does, and wouldn't put it past it doing so slightly longer, with there being a few weeks when England is a republic but Australia a constitutional monarchy.
posted by acb at 3:12 PM on March 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
They serve entirely to enshrine classism in the British nonconstitution.
Nonstitution, surely.
Amending it will be like sewing jelly to other jelly nailed to a wall.
posted by Sparx at 3:22 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nonstitution, surely.
Amending it will be like sewing jelly to other jelly nailed to a wall.
posted by Sparx at 3:22 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I knew the British tabloids were bad, but what I gathered from half-watching the interview while doing other work is that they are pretty much equivalent to OAN or the worst parts of Fox News. Also, that there's not that much difference between the relationship between the British tabloids and the monarchy as compared to the relationship between OAN/Fox and the Republican Party; and that probably many individuals within the institution of the British monarchy are equivalently racist, anti-democratic, and just generally terrible humans as one found in the Trump administration - Republicans just had to do their own tabloid articles, basically.
Which leads me to:
They said they came to America to get away from the racism. That's like going to a Metallica concert for the peace and quiet.
There's this idea that racism isn't as bad in the UK (or other European countries) because it's not talked about as much as in the US. The militarization of US police certainly gives particularly noticeable and gruesome opportunities to demonstrate the racism endemic to US society in ways that many other countries don't have. But everything I read indicates that racism is every bit as endemic to the UK, and possibly the worse for not being talked about as much. At least in the US you can find pockets (eg. where Harry and Meghan have settled) that are not quite as racist. So yeah, they actually originally went to BC, Canada to get away from the racism (there is plenty of racism in Canada too, though from what I hear it tends to fall most heavily on First Nations folks and non-celebrity people of color). And then went to LA because that's where they had an offer of a place to stay with security provided, according to the interview. But I find it quite believable that they'll encounter less racism in their new milieu.
posted by eviemath at 3:40 PM on March 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
Which leads me to:
They said they came to America to get away from the racism. That's like going to a Metallica concert for the peace and quiet.
There's this idea that racism isn't as bad in the UK (or other European countries) because it's not talked about as much as in the US. The militarization of US police certainly gives particularly noticeable and gruesome opportunities to demonstrate the racism endemic to US society in ways that many other countries don't have. But everything I read indicates that racism is every bit as endemic to the UK, and possibly the worse for not being talked about as much. At least in the US you can find pockets (eg. where Harry and Meghan have settled) that are not quite as racist. So yeah, they actually originally went to BC, Canada to get away from the racism (there is plenty of racism in Canada too, though from what I hear it tends to fall most heavily on First Nations folks and non-celebrity people of color). And then went to LA because that's where they had an offer of a place to stay with security provided, according to the interview. But I find it quite believable that they'll encounter less racism in their new milieu.
posted by eviemath at 3:40 PM on March 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
It has certainly added fuel to the perennial question of whether to ditch the monarchy in Canada, among other Commonwealth nations. If I was a betting man, I'd bet the house that no political party would touch the issue in Canada. Much to our detriment, I really don't see any benefit to the royals but plenty of downsides.
Canada had their chance.
Posted by United States Gang
posted by General Malaise at 3:43 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Canada had their chance.
Posted by United States Gang
posted by General Malaise at 3:43 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Canada had their chance.
Posted by United States Gang
OK but in fairness I don't really blame Canada or anyone else for not wanting to hang out with us, either. I mean, I've been to America.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:49 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
Posted by United States Gang
OK but in fairness I don't really blame Canada or anyone else for not wanting to hang out with us, either. I mean, I've been to America.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:49 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is how King Ralph started, thorough, right?
posted by Mchelly at 4:05 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 4:05 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's this idea that racism isn't as bad in the UK (or other European countries) because it's not talked about as much as in the US.
Yeah American liberals and Europeans like to think anywhere that has universal healthcare can't be as racist as the unenlightened US but there is PLENTY out there. There is police violence against people of color, institutional racism, colonialism and imperialism, structural racism, worship of extremely racist white men of the past and denial that they were racist, enthusiastic practitioners of concentration camps even after World War 2 when everyone should theoretically know better, electing a populist demagogue with a history of racist remarks (and let's see here, after his leadership the Tories...won their biggest victory since the 80s, huh!), and, of course, destroying their economy and international standing because they were racist.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:13 PM on March 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
Yeah American liberals and Europeans like to think anywhere that has universal healthcare can't be as racist as the unenlightened US but there is PLENTY out there. There is police violence against people of color, institutional racism, colonialism and imperialism, structural racism, worship of extremely racist white men of the past and denial that they were racist, enthusiastic practitioners of concentration camps even after World War 2 when everyone should theoretically know better, electing a populist demagogue with a history of racist remarks (and let's see here, after his leadership the Tories...won their biggest victory since the 80s, huh!), and, of course, destroying their economy and international standing because they were racist.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:13 PM on March 10, 2021 [25 favorites]
Yeah, my editor's pen was really twitching as I read this. It could have done with a bit less Ooh Look At Me Aren't I Witty and a little more just coming out and saying what you want to say and making your point.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:26 PM on March 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:26 PM on March 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
This season of The Crown is really nasty.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:31 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:31 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you’ve never seen Gina Yashere on American vs UK racism and taking the train to/from(?) Leeds - now is the time! Pleased to see that she was interviewed to give her perspective on the event itself.
posted by rdnnyc at 4:38 PM on March 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by rdnnyc at 4:38 PM on March 10, 2021 [9 favorites]
The problem for Canada is that removing the crown is a constitutional amendment issue. And if we go there, there are going to be a whole bunch of extra riders. I don't want Charlottetown 2 or the Meech Lake Encore. We almost lost to ourselves last time.
posted by bonehead at 5:52 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 5:52 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
Considering that there hasn't been a Governor General (the Queen's representative) in Canada for about a month already, we could passively ditch the Monarchy simply by neglecting to fill the role. Trudeau could simply cite other priorities every time it comes up. It's unlikely to actually work out that way, but a girl can dream, right?
posted by peppermind at 6:02 PM on March 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by peppermind at 6:02 PM on March 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
They don't care how Americans feel about them.
The feeling is mutual.
posted by freakazoid at 6:42 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
The feeling is mutual.
posted by freakazoid at 6:42 PM on March 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
If anything is going to bring down the house of Windsor in the forseeable future, it's going to be Charles III
I dunno on balance things worked out pretty good for his namesakes
For what it’s worth, Charles has said that if and when — mostly if — he takes the throne, he would not take the name Charles III, because of I and II.
William V, however, does not have as checkered a series of progenitors.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:05 PM on March 10, 2021
I dunno on balance things worked out pretty good for his namesakes
For what it’s worth, Charles has said that if and when — mostly if — he takes the throne, he would not take the name Charles III, because of I and II.
William V, however, does not have as checkered a series of progenitors.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:05 PM on March 10, 2021
I've read that Charles will most likely go for George VII in honor of his grandfather. He could choose another of his spare names and be King Arthur II if he wanted though. He wouldn't live up to it but it would be cool.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:11 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:11 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
As long as it's not King Chaz, British diminutives give me hives
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:24 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:24 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
"these useless leeches at least bring in enough tourist money to make them worth while" alive.
This has been my position vis a vis my British friends for a couple of decades. You'd be crazy to get rid of them because of the insane amount of tourist money they bring in from starry-eyed foreigners entranced by the whole romantic and exotic British-ness of it all, but you're even crazier to have not yet stripped them of all power and told them to pay for their own damn upkeep.
But I don't have a horse in this race, just a view from the outside. Not my country, not my business. What really amuses me at this point in the whole silly mess is that--as bizarre as it sounds--there exists now in this timeline a non-zero chance that an actual bonafide member of the House of Windsor could one day--in theory, anyway--end up elected President of the U.S. Just imagine, President Windsor, lol. The mind reels, to quote Miss Golightly.
Sure it's wildly improbable, but...*waves vaguely at the previous four years*...
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 9:01 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
This has been my position vis a vis my British friends for a couple of decades. You'd be crazy to get rid of them because of the insane amount of tourist money they bring in from starry-eyed foreigners entranced by the whole romantic and exotic British-ness of it all, but you're even crazier to have not yet stripped them of all power and told them to pay for their own damn upkeep.
But I don't have a horse in this race, just a view from the outside. Not my country, not my business. What really amuses me at this point in the whole silly mess is that--as bizarre as it sounds--there exists now in this timeline a non-zero chance that an actual bonafide member of the House of Windsor could one day--in theory, anyway--end up elected President of the U.S. Just imagine, President Windsor, lol. The mind reels, to quote Miss Golightly.
Sure it's wildly improbable, but...*waves vaguely at the previous four years*...
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 9:01 PM on March 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
He could choose another of his spare names and be King Arthur II if he wanted though. He wouldn't live up to it but it would be cool.
That would surely be a more extreme form of the truism that England's half-millennium of global prominence was bookended by the two Elizabethan eras.
posted by acb at 2:20 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
That would surely be a more extreme form of the truism that England's half-millennium of global prominence was bookended by the two Elizabethan eras.
posted by acb at 2:20 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
As long as it's not King Chaz, British diminutives give me hives
King Chezza from the House of Wezza!
You'd be crazy to get rid of them because of the insane amount of tourist money they bring in from starry-eyed foreigners entranced by the whole romantic and exotic British-ness of it all, but you're even crazier to have not yet stripped them of all power and told them to pay for their own damn upkeep.
Somehow Versailles still gets more visitors, tumbrils notwithstanding.
posted by AillilUpATree at 2:23 AM on March 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
King Chezza from the House of Wezza!
You'd be crazy to get rid of them because of the insane amount of tourist money they bring in from starry-eyed foreigners entranced by the whole romantic and exotic British-ness of it all, but you're even crazier to have not yet stripped them of all power and told them to pay for their own damn upkeep.
Somehow Versailles still gets more visitors, tumbrils notwithstanding.
posted by AillilUpATree at 2:23 AM on March 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
Getting Piers Morgan to condemn you and flame out is a pretty good move. Whatever you thought about Meghan and Harry before, that’s going to win you round to their side.
posted by Phanx at 3:27 AM on March 11, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 3:27 AM on March 11, 2021 [16 favorites]
I've noticed that whenever racism in the UK is discussed elsewhere online, sealions always pop up with the same survey that "proves" the UK is less racist than other European countries, usually as a way to shut down the conversation. It's such an infuriating, supercilious attitude that boils down to, "You've got it good here, just shut up and be glad you don't live in [X]."
I don't think I've been more angry at this country in my life. This must be how people felt back in the 80s. It's always been bad here, I remember actual friends at Cambridge telling me that of course I must be mistaken to think I'd ever experienced anti-Chinese racism in my personal life. Good for Harry and Meghan for getting out of this shitshow, and I hope the monarchy is wound down during my lifetime.
posted by adrianhon at 4:00 AM on March 11, 2021 [30 favorites]
I don't think I've been more angry at this country in my life. This must be how people felt back in the 80s. It's always been bad here, I remember actual friends at Cambridge telling me that of course I must be mistaken to think I'd ever experienced anti-Chinese racism in my personal life. Good for Harry and Meghan for getting out of this shitshow, and I hope the monarchy is wound down during my lifetime.
posted by adrianhon at 4:00 AM on March 11, 2021 [30 favorites]
He could choose another of his spare names and be King Arthur II if he wanted though. He wouldn't live up to it but it would be cool.
Technically just King Arthur, since AFAIK the historicity of the legend is at the very least highly in doubt. But it's also highly doubtful that Charles would want the comparison.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Technically just King Arthur, since AFAIK the historicity of the legend is at the very least highly in doubt. But it's also highly doubtful that Charles would want the comparison.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
There have been lots of princes named Arthur, and none of them ever got to be king. It's even more jinxed than Charles.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:04 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:04 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I love this article..."send in the Clowns". And my pike is out of the thatch on Megan's side too.
posted by mermayd at 5:41 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mermayd at 5:41 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not to try and claim that white Americans are really great, but the idea of coming to America to flee racism isn't really laughable or foolhardy.
Again, white Americans still have a lot of evl and racism going on, no doubt at all and I am explicitly not claiming that white Americans are perfect, or even great, when it comes to not being racist.
But often they're better than white Europeans or Brits. Studies show a lower average implicit racism in white Americans than in white Europeans.
And, anecdotally, there's a lot of white Europeans who are openly racist when talking to other white people in a way that you don't see so often in America.
There's the Dutch guy I was casual acquaintences with who was discussing crime in Japan vs crime elsewhere and who told me that, and I quote, "in Holland the crime rate was quite low until all the da*kies moved in".
A French student was talking about life in Paris and explained that she could never live near African immigrants and again I quote "becuase imagine the smell!"
There's a degree of casual, open, racism expressed by many white Europeans that you just don't encounter even in the more racist parts of America all that often. I lived for 39 of my 46 years in a very white, very racist, part of America and I heard more casual racism in six months living with European exchange students in Japan than I did in that entire 39 years in small town Texas.
For the UK specifically, there's also a large degree of racism among white Brittons. A good example is when Nadiya Hussein, who was born in Bangledash but is a UK citizen, won the Great British Bake Off. And there were furious letters to the editor complining that only "real" Brittons should win the show, and she got death threats.
So yes, I can absolutely understand both why they'd want to move to the US to be in a less racist environemnt, and how that can seem really bizarre to many Americans.
But the sad truth is on average white Americans are less awful than white Europeans or Birttons. That doesn't show that white Americans are doing very well, merely that white people elsewhere are (somehow) doing even worse.
posted by sotonohito at 6:17 AM on March 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
Again, white Americans still have a lot of evl and racism going on, no doubt at all and I am explicitly not claiming that white Americans are perfect, or even great, when it comes to not being racist.
But often they're better than white Europeans or Brits. Studies show a lower average implicit racism in white Americans than in white Europeans.
And, anecdotally, there's a lot of white Europeans who are openly racist when talking to other white people in a way that you don't see so often in America.
There's the Dutch guy I was casual acquaintences with who was discussing crime in Japan vs crime elsewhere and who told me that, and I quote, "in Holland the crime rate was quite low until all the da*kies moved in".
A French student was talking about life in Paris and explained that she could never live near African immigrants and again I quote "becuase imagine the smell!"
There's a degree of casual, open, racism expressed by many white Europeans that you just don't encounter even in the more racist parts of America all that often. I lived for 39 of my 46 years in a very white, very racist, part of America and I heard more casual racism in six months living with European exchange students in Japan than I did in that entire 39 years in small town Texas.
For the UK specifically, there's also a large degree of racism among white Brittons. A good example is when Nadiya Hussein, who was born in Bangledash but is a UK citizen, won the Great British Bake Off. And there were furious letters to the editor complining that only "real" Brittons should win the show, and she got death threats.
So yes, I can absolutely understand both why they'd want to move to the US to be in a less racist environemnt, and how that can seem really bizarre to many Americans.
But the sad truth is on average white Americans are less awful than white Europeans or Birttons. That doesn't show that white Americans are doing very well, merely that white people elsewhere are (somehow) doing even worse.
posted by sotonohito at 6:17 AM on March 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
The problem for Canada is that removing the crown is a constitutional amendment issue. And if we go there, there are going to be a whole bunch of extra riders. I don't want Charlottetown 2 or the Meech Lake Encore. We almost lost to ourselves last time.
It's the constitutional amendment issue of all amendment issues; it falls under section 41 (changes to the office of the Queen, Governor-General or Lieutenant General), which requires identical resolutions from both Houses of Parliment and all provincial legislatures. Charlottetown and Meech Lake were done under the slightly less onerous 7+50 formula (both Houses, 7 legislatures representing at least 50% of the population (s.42)). Add in the fact that Alberta and BC both have legislation requiring referendums on Constitutional legislation, and, well...
It would be an endless series of hostage taking as each province holds out for its pet issue(s), and as governments change over the time required to make it happen, those issues will also change. The House of Windsor would have to royally fuck things up (pun intended) to get it to happen with any, much less enough, urgency.
On one hand I can understand it, because you want there to be stability and predictability; on the other hand, I can't help but feel that you need to be able to amend your core governance documents from time to time because the world changes and how we govern ourselves might need to change too.
posted by nubs at 7:42 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's the constitutional amendment issue of all amendment issues; it falls under section 41 (changes to the office of the Queen, Governor-General or Lieutenant General), which requires identical resolutions from both Houses of Parliment and all provincial legislatures. Charlottetown and Meech Lake were done under the slightly less onerous 7+50 formula (both Houses, 7 legislatures representing at least 50% of the population (s.42)). Add in the fact that Alberta and BC both have legislation requiring referendums on Constitutional legislation, and, well...
It would be an endless series of hostage taking as each province holds out for its pet issue(s), and as governments change over the time required to make it happen, those issues will also change. The House of Windsor would have to royally fuck things up (pun intended) to get it to happen with any, much less enough, urgency.
On one hand I can understand it, because you want there to be stability and predictability; on the other hand, I can't help but feel that you need to be able to amend your core governance documents from time to time because the world changes and how we govern ourselves might need to change too.
posted by nubs at 7:42 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
It’s okay guys, William confirmed that they are not a racist family! Whew!
posted by like_neon at 7:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 7:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
I've noticed that whenever racism in the UK is discussed elsewhere online, sealions always pop up with the same survey that "proves" the UK is less racist than other European countries, usually as a way to shut down the conversation. It's such an infuriating, supercilious attitude that boils down to, "You've got it good here, just shut up and be glad you don't live in [X]."
Yes. I think some clever Americans have picked up on that tendency in their media, too.
posted by droplet at 7:56 AM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yes. I think some clever Americans have picked up on that tendency in their media, too.
posted by droplet at 7:56 AM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
The problem is that the US is an overtly apartheid society which gives the covertly apartheid societies a lot of cheap shots.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:03 AM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:03 AM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Why do we care? Well, that got discussed over here. Also, some folks really do relate to dealing with racism, shitty families, family businesses, family feuds, etc.
Also, because originally this started out so well. A stodgy institution that spent decades bitching about divorce and pedigrees and Americans and whatnot were actually letting this girl marry in, without a lick of fuss about it? That was PROGRESS for these people. And now we find out they haven't changed in literally decades and treated Meghan the same way they treated Diana and haven't learned a bloody goddamned thing from that at all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:12 AM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, because originally this started out so well. A stodgy institution that spent decades bitching about divorce and pedigrees and Americans and whatnot were actually letting this girl marry in, without a lick of fuss about it? That was PROGRESS for these people. And now we find out they haven't changed in literally decades and treated Meghan the same way they treated Diana and haven't learned a bloody goddamned thing from that at all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:12 AM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Commenting with what amounts to "who cares, p.s. I haven't read why people care" really doesn't advance a conversation. On a topic like racism, commenting that way can function as a microaggression, so there is extra reason to refrain. See the Community Guidelines for more.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:48 AM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:48 AM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
The particulars of the (rich, well-connected, white and white-passing) Sussex family situation means they are less likely to personally experience racism here than they did in Britain. Consider that they complained of racist treatment from the system around the monarchy and the press. They have removed themselves (or been removed) from the "active royal" system and gained distance from the British media. I don't think anyone is saying that the US isn't racist, but the power systems that abused Meghan in Britain don't quite apply to how they've set up their lives here.
...and yes this article is delicious, I've read it aloud entirely to two separate people.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:03 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
...and yes this article is delicious, I've read it aloud entirely to two separate people.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:03 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
This piece in today's Irish Times is an excellent summary of why Britain, Ireland and the US talk past one another with respect to the Royal Family.
And the UK is just as racist as any other country. It's just sometimes obscured by the absurd class system.
posted by fallingbadgers at 10:21 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
And the UK is just as racist as any other country. It's just sometimes obscured by the absurd class system.
posted by fallingbadgers at 10:21 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Listening to today’s episode of The Daily, I discovered that -having never actually heard Megan Markle speak- my brain had subconsciously grafted a British accent onto her since she was a royal and wasn’t at all happy that she still had an American one. The mind is a funny place.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:32 AM on March 11, 2021
posted by Going To Maine at 10:32 AM on March 11, 2021
So why can't England just fire these underperforming royals and get new ones?
I know, I know, thanks to Brexit they cant just import a new Royal Family from say, Sweden or Germany. But try this- they replace the royal family with the actors from "The Queen". There'll be the same appearances, but a higher standard of professionalism and probably less egregious behavior. Add the actors get a permanent gig. It's win-win.
posted by happyroach at 10:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
I know, I know, thanks to Brexit they cant just import a new Royal Family from say, Sweden or Germany. But try this- they replace the royal family with the actors from "The Queen". There'll be the same appearances, but a higher standard of professionalism and probably less egregious behavior. Add the actors get a permanent gig. It's win-win.
posted by happyroach at 10:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
And the UK is just as racist as any other country. It's just sometimes obscured by the absurd class syste
It is so racist that before it had non white people to oppress and destroy, it made do with Irish people.
I am not comparing the situations, but I do want to point out how deepand far back the English system of treating others it considers lesser goes. And how well they can adapt and develop it over centuries.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 2:23 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
It is so racist that before it had non white people to oppress and destroy, it made do with Irish people.
I am not comparing the situations, but I do want to point out how deepand far back the English system of treating others it considers lesser goes. And how well they can adapt and develop it over centuries.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 2:23 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
Reminds me how people used to say there was no racism in Chile because there were no black people here (ignoring 500 years of oppression of the Mapuche, various genocides, etc.)
People stopped saying this after a bunch of black Haitians and Colombians immigrated. Now they say "I'm not racist, but…"
posted by signal at 4:31 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
People stopped saying this after a bunch of black Haitians and Colombians immigrated. Now they say "I'm not racist, but…"
posted by signal at 4:31 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
it made do with Irish people
And full circle back to the article.
posted by doctornemo at 5:04 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
And full circle back to the article.
posted by doctornemo at 5:04 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
It is so racist that before it had non white people to oppress and destroy, it made do with Irish people.
The comic Reginald Hunter always jokes that the UK class system allows you to be racist toward people that look like you.
In case you've never heard of him, he is a black, American comedian from Georgia who does stand up in the UK. His observations about the UK and racism are usually pretty spot on.
posted by vacapinta at 1:46 AM on March 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
The comic Reginald Hunter always jokes that the UK class system allows you to be racist toward people that look like you.
In case you've never heard of him, he is a black, American comedian from Georgia who does stand up in the UK. His observations about the UK and racism are usually pretty spot on.
posted by vacapinta at 1:46 AM on March 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, this seems like the right place to drop this NY Times article: There Is, in Britain, a Very Big Silence Around Race’
“What I’ve come to understand about racism in the U.K. is there’s a lot of gaslighting,” Ms. Lane said. “It’s almost as if, being Black or mixed-race in Britain, you’re in a version of ‘The Truman Show,’ where you know something’s not right, but nobody wants to admit it.”
posted by vacapinta at 2:03 AM on March 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
“What I’ve come to understand about racism in the U.K. is there’s a lot of gaslighting,” Ms. Lane said. “It’s almost as if, being Black or mixed-race in Britain, you’re in a version of ‘The Truman Show,’ where you know something’s not right, but nobody wants to admit it.”
posted by vacapinta at 2:03 AM on March 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not just the English! The Scots in Jamaica etc
You also find a lot of Irish people as administrators in the Empire too. (e.g. Michael O'Dwyer in India.) One of the things that the English establishment did very well was taking the best and the brightest from places like Ireland, and making them part of the system. (So that they are both complicit in the system, and have a good incentive to maintain the system.) They were seen as "good enough" to be almost English. The same thing still happens now - take people like Priti Patel.
He writes at this level every week, it’s just usually about Irish tv programmes of no interest to a wider audience.
Patrick Freyne himself is tweeting out a selection of his earlier articles if people are interested. (Note, the Irish Times paywalls itself after a certain number of free articles. )
posted by scorbet at 4:47 AM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
You also find a lot of Irish people as administrators in the Empire too. (e.g. Michael O'Dwyer in India.) One of the things that the English establishment did very well was taking the best and the brightest from places like Ireland, and making them part of the system. (So that they are both complicit in the system, and have a good incentive to maintain the system.) They were seen as "good enough" to be almost English. The same thing still happens now - take people like Priti Patel.
He writes at this level every week, it’s just usually about Irish tv programmes of no interest to a wider audience.
Patrick Freyne himself is tweeting out a selection of his earlier articles if people are interested. (Note, the Irish Times paywalls itself after a certain number of free articles. )
posted by scorbet at 4:47 AM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm an American who went to London on vacation fairly recently, and I was there to see London, and some of the old buildings and streets the like of which we don't have in the states. So, yes, that included a palace. The royals themselves were the denizens of London I was least interested in, and I'm not interested in Americans that are famous for being famous, either.
posted by quillbreaker at 7:13 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by quillbreaker at 7:13 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
You also find a lot of Irish people as administrators in the Empire too. (e.g. Michael O'Dwyer in India.) One of the things that the English establishment did very well was taking the best and the brightest from places like Ireland, and making them part of the system. (So that they are both complicit in the system, and have a good incentive to maintain the system.
Yes - and I also want to make clear that I am not referencing the old lie about Irish slaves etc. I just think that it's telling that even before they sailed out of Europe, they had a system in place that they could just adjust and refine endlessly. I mean they started in on this in the middle ages with their first colony, so they had a head start on it
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:23 AM on March 12, 2021
Yes - and I also want to make clear that I am not referencing the old lie about Irish slaves etc. I just think that it's telling that even before they sailed out of Europe, they had a system in place that they could just adjust and refine endlessly. I mean they started in on this in the middle ages with their first colony, so they had a head start on it
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:23 AM on March 12, 2021
The first conversation I had in England as an American tourist, besides the perfunctory hellos, thank yous, and asking for and giving of directions that got me from the airport to the neighborhood of my hotel, was the long, cheerful, and completely unsolicited rant from a store clerk who looked like Central Casting’s version of “Typical English Granny,” about how all the brown-skinned immigrants from the Middle East (she used some more creative terms) were ruining the country and it was a good thing I came when I did because soon there wouldn’t be anything left to visit, here’s your change and don’t forget your brolly.
Sweet as pie, and if I hadn’t been an English speaker who understood the actual words she was saying it would have sounded like she was telling me how lovely the weather was for the time of year. (My sister and I joked that maybe once she knew we were Americans she was just trying to make us feel at home.)
Some people work really hard to draw a distinction between this kind of racism and the cross-burning kind, but as far as I’m concerned they come from the same place. One kind normalizes and enables the other.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:24 AM on March 12, 2021 [9 favorites]
Sweet as pie, and if I hadn’t been an English speaker who understood the actual words she was saying it would have sounded like she was telling me how lovely the weather was for the time of year. (My sister and I joked that maybe once she knew we were Americans she was just trying to make us feel at home.)
Some people work really hard to draw a distinction between this kind of racism and the cross-burning kind, but as far as I’m concerned they come from the same place. One kind normalizes and enables the other.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:24 AM on March 12, 2021 [9 favorites]
Colorist is the key ingredient in the Meghan Markle debate
posted by eviemath at 10:19 AM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 10:19 AM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of what my mother said about the Iranian Revolution, which she could see was coming back when they were in Iran in the 1960s with an oil company. The Texans were bad, but the Iranians didn't hate them; they saved their particular loathing for the English. And for good reason. For all three English liked to pretend to be civilized, their level of racism was utterly vile
posted by happyroach at 12:55 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by happyroach at 12:55 PM on March 13, 2021
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I half-watched this while my wife had it on, and I was surprised how smooth the prince is on-camera, compared to many of the royals (e.g., his father). The couple of seems to have come to peace with their decision, and I wish them well in escaping that scene.
...But maybe I am spoiled by having listened to the You're Wrong About podcast's series on Princess Diana (link to episode 1 of 5 is here), because the royal family seems like a total shitshow.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:28 PM on March 10, 2021 [19 favorites]