I Wish They All Could Be California Bagels
March 13, 2021 12:50 PM Subscribe
The Best Bagels Are in California (Sorry, New York)
West Coast bakers are driving a great bagel boom, producing some of the most delicious versions around and finding ways to expand during the pandemic. (SLNYT)
Incorrect. The best bagels are Montreal bagels.
posted by Stoof at 1:00 PM on March 13, 2021 [53 favorites]
posted by Stoof at 1:00 PM on March 13, 2021 [53 favorites]
1976: California comes at French Wine’s neck.
2021: Whatitdo, NYC? Or should I say, “Whatitdid”?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:04 PM on March 13, 2021
2021: Whatitdo, NYC? Or should I say, “Whatitdid”?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:04 PM on March 13, 2021
I think one neat thing about localized culture not being so localized anymore is how all these "You want a good X? Well if you want X you gotta go to Y. Y has the best X in the world" food tropes are starting to fall apart. Is X the best in Y because of something about Y? Or is X the best there because of how Y makes X? And can we make X here like they make it in Y? I've never liked the regional food battles and anything that shows the food can be just as good in places where the food isn't known for being good warms my heart.
posted by downtohisturtles at 1:08 PM on March 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 1:08 PM on March 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Incorrect. The best bagels are Montreal bagels.
Who hurt you?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:10 PM on March 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
Who hurt you?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:10 PM on March 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
I had hoped MetaFilter had escaped these lies.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 1:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
As long as it's an actual bagel and not one of those horrible glue donuts that some people pass off as a bagel, I don't care where it was made. The glue donuts should die in a fire.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [11 favorites]
Possibly more appropriate for Projects, but I’m testing this article’s theory, one shop at a time. Today, Pop’s Bagels
I thought it was great, my uncultured son reluctantly agreed they were as good as Costco bagels.
posted by The Gooch at 1:30 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
I thought it was great, my uncultured son reluctantly agreed they were as good as Costco bagels.
posted by The Gooch at 1:30 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
As everyone knows, the best bagels are the ones that came from that one place we went to a lot when I was a kid.
posted by kyrademon at 1:35 PM on March 13, 2021 [83 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 1:35 PM on March 13, 2021 [83 favorites]
I just ordered the worst flavor bagel at this place people say is good. I'll let you know if it meets my standards.
posted by mulligan at 1:45 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by mulligan at 1:45 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
Seconding Montreal bagels. They are the mutation that will become the dominant strain.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 1:49 PM on March 13, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 1:49 PM on March 13, 2021 [15 favorites]
Incorrect. The best bagels are Montreal bagels
One of the featured shops in the article makes Montreal style bagels (hopefully can confirm if it matches the quality of St. Viateur within the next week or two)
posted by The Gooch at 1:49 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
One of the featured shops in the article makes Montreal style bagels (hopefully can confirm if it matches the quality of St. Viateur within the next week or two)
posted by The Gooch at 1:49 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
In conclusion, bagels are a land of contrast.
posted by gwint at 2:00 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by gwint at 2:00 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
“Sorry, Norway. The best tacos in Europe are in Belgium.”
posted by mhoye at 2:00 PM on March 13, 2021 [43 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 2:00 PM on March 13, 2021 [43 favorites]
The best response to regional food snobbery that takes the form of "I just haven't had a food as good as the ones I got in place ... I miss that," is "oh, I've never been there [or 'I've been there but never had the food ' OR 'I guess a food is just a food to me'] ... what made them good to you?"
The best response to regional food snobbery that takes the form of "People who think the food here is any good are idiots. The best food is in place ," is "bless your heart."
posted by mph at 2:08 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
The best response to regional food snobbery that takes the form of "People who think the food here is any good are idiots. The best food is in place ," is "bless your heart."
posted by mph at 2:08 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think one neat thing about localized culture not being so localized anymore is how all these "You want a good X? Well if you want X you gotta go to Y. Y has the best X in the world" food tropes are starting to fall apart.
I was going to comment something along these lines.
As someone from a "flyover" state, I've experienced a lot of snobbery from people on the coasts who think there's no such thing as good food elsewhere. Like, I still remember the time someone on this site, who is from New York, said that they'd never trust a Midwesterner about coffee - as if we don't have access to the same information, equipment, and ingredients as they do.
(After years of this hype, I was underwhelmed by the coffee in New York. It was fine! But the highly recommended coffee shops I specifically sought out to experience this amazing New York coffee were just not better than the best coffee shops in my own hometown.)
I mean, there are still some things that are regional (or lacking in some regions). If you have more people producing X somewhere, the supply chain for producing X will be better, and the person who is the best at producing X are more likely to be found there. People might also have higher standards for X because they have more choices. It's a bit of a numbers game.
But a lot of things that were regional aren't, anymore, and a lot of regional food snobbery is really obnoxious.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [34 favorites]
I was going to comment something along these lines.
As someone from a "flyover" state, I've experienced a lot of snobbery from people on the coasts who think there's no such thing as good food elsewhere. Like, I still remember the time someone on this site, who is from New York, said that they'd never trust a Midwesterner about coffee - as if we don't have access to the same information, equipment, and ingredients as they do.
(After years of this hype, I was underwhelmed by the coffee in New York. It was fine! But the highly recommended coffee shops I specifically sought out to experience this amazing New York coffee were just not better than the best coffee shops in my own hometown.)
I mean, there are still some things that are regional (or lacking in some regions). If you have more people producing X somewhere, the supply chain for producing X will be better, and the person who is the best at producing X are more likely to be found there. People might also have higher standards for X because they have more choices. It's a bit of a numbers game.
But a lot of things that were regional aren't, anymore, and a lot of regional food snobbery is really obnoxious.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [34 favorites]
I once had an internet conversation with someone who was lamenting how difficult it was to get good bread and chocolate in...San Francisco. There was one bakery, you know, where the bread was good. But other than that - a wasteland. It was at this point that I decided that certain kinds of sensibility are more of a burden than a blessing.
My feeling about bagels is that as long as they're reasonably chewy and have some flavor, I am willing to eat them. If they're better than that, great, but frankly a good-enough bagel with cream cheese and lox is still good enough for me.
posted by Frowner at 2:14 PM on March 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
My feeling about bagels is that as long as they're reasonably chewy and have some flavor, I am willing to eat them. If they're better than that, great, but frankly a good-enough bagel with cream cheese and lox is still good enough for me.
posted by Frowner at 2:14 PM on March 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
Baggles
posted by The otter lady at 2:18 PM on March 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 2:18 PM on March 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
I was about to question this, and then I saw that all of these bagel places cropped up after I left. When I lived in LA I found one good bagel place (Brooklyn Water Bagels) after years of searching. Hopefully this will become an international trend. I appreciate Frowner's statement that bagels are fine so long as they're reasonably chewy and have some flavor. I've been repeatedly disappointed around the world by bagels that are just rolls with holes in the middle. (There is a bagel company in Auckland that advertises their bagels as being the best because they are "light and fluffy, not dense and chewy." YOU HAVE MISSED THE POINT OF BAGELS.)
posted by rednikki at 2:25 PM on March 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 2:25 PM on March 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
im no food snob but you plebeians aren't fit to taste the HOLES of my bagels
posted by lalochezia at 2:25 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 2:25 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
The best bagels are the ones we met along the way.
posted by Splunge at 2:26 PM on March 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 2:26 PM on March 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Of all the food textures I miss because I have celiac disease, bagels top the list.
Just reading the word is enough to make my teeth throb in frustrated anticipation.
posted by jamjam at 2:32 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
Just reading the word is enough to make my teeth throb in frustrated anticipation.
posted by jamjam at 2:32 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
Hey Now...let's not forget BoDos in Cville.
Charlottesville.
Va.
For real, though..
posted by markbrendanawitzmissesus at 2:35 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
Charlottesville.
Va.
For real, though..
posted by markbrendanawitzmissesus at 2:35 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm in the rural Midwest and literally the best bagels I have access to are frozen and have packaging that looks like it's for a audio cassette tape of canned answering machine messages. You'd think they would understand bread of all fucking things here, but no. Don't even get me started on the impossibility of a hard roll.
posted by Ferreous at 2:46 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 2:46 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
I mean, there are still some things that are regional (or lacking in some regions). If you have more people producing X somewhere, the supply chain for producing X will be better, and the person who is the best at producing X are more likely to be found there. People might also have higher standards for X because they have more choices.
I have this theory about pizza.
The town where I grew up in NY had 3 pizza places in a town of less than 10,000. The smaller town next to us had 2.
The larger city had dozens.
Basically everyone who worked in their uncle's pizza place or graduated from community college with a food service degree opened a pizza joint.
As such, we were spoiled for choice and only the truly good survived. It was basically survival of the fittest.
In contrast, where I am now, in the NW, there just aren't that many pizza places. I live near a town much bigger than my childhood and there are only a handful. Some have been around for decades and have gotten, well, a little lazy and complacent.
They serve perfectly fine pizza, but it it isn't great pizza.
So if people ask whether NY pizza is better, I'll say yes, but it isn't because of the water or whatever other BS, it's because it doesn't have to be.
posted by madajb at 2:53 PM on March 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
I have this theory about pizza.
The town where I grew up in NY had 3 pizza places in a town of less than 10,000. The smaller town next to us had 2.
The larger city had dozens.
Basically everyone who worked in their uncle's pizza place or graduated from community college with a food service degree opened a pizza joint.
As such, we were spoiled for choice and only the truly good survived. It was basically survival of the fittest.
In contrast, where I am now, in the NW, there just aren't that many pizza places. I live near a town much bigger than my childhood and there are only a handful. Some have been around for decades and have gotten, well, a little lazy and complacent.
They serve perfectly fine pizza, but it it isn't great pizza.
So if people ask whether NY pizza is better, I'll say yes, but it isn't because of the water or whatever other BS, it's because it doesn't have to be.
posted by madajb at 2:53 PM on March 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
Incorrect. The best bagels are Montreal bagels.
Who hurt you?
according to the rest of Canada, the answer to that is Toronto.
(not sure why)
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:57 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Who hurt you?
according to the rest of Canada, the answer to that is Toronto.
(not sure why)
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:57 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
also, recently my partner bought some very cheap bags of bagels to freeze and have around if I need a late night snack. They are just like the heavy, chewy, cheap frozen bagels my mom would buy when I was a kid and I love them
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:59 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:59 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
There is also something to be said about terrior, Montreal bagels are supeirior because one dude has been teaching another dude who taught a third dude for more than a century. Also St Viteur is a tourist trap.
posted by PinkMoose at 3:09 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PinkMoose at 3:09 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Not bagel-related exactly, but tangentially relevant to this thread's conversation: I'm not a BBQ snob by any means, but the highly-rated BBQ places I've tried in Portland are pretty meh as far as I'm concerned - it all tastes like they're just roasting meat sprinkled with (not enough) Liquid Smoke and glazing it with boring store-bought barbecue sauce. Heck, I can make better at home in my little electric smoker Which means I have lucky friends, if I do say so myself, so it's not like there's some sort of Secret Process or anything.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
The very simply named Hot Bagels of Saddle River Road, Fair Lawn, NJ, has made the best bagels for decades. It's just a different kind of thing than generic bagels, or boutique tryhards. I'd be curious to try Boychik bagels of course but the best non-fancy food usually comes with the least hype (like a NY Times article).
posted by Schmucko at 3:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Schmucko at 3:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
It’s weird to think that, having lived in both Illinois and Kyoto, better bagels are available fresh in the latter
Thinking about the time Apple revealed their first attempt at a bagel emoji and everyone rightly dunked on it for being one California-ass bagel, so they fixed it in a subsequent OS release to look less “just a smooth white bread roll with a hole in the center” overall
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:13 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Thinking about the time Apple revealed their first attempt at a bagel emoji and everyone rightly dunked on it for being one California-ass bagel, so they fixed it in a subsequent OS release to look less “just a smooth white bread roll with a hole in the center” overall
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:13 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
You'd think Apple would do better given their corporate headquarters is basically bagel architecture.
posted by Schmucko at 3:15 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Schmucko at 3:15 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
Grew up in Berkeley in the 1970s/80s. Does Brothers Bagels still exist? On Gilman St.? Because they had the best bagels. Mmm, salt bagels.
posted by chavenet at 3:17 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:17 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I love Montreal bagels. But, as a tourist, I can't actually tell whether it's because they taste better, or because the process of going out of your way to go to the shop and seeing them made adds importance to the bagel. Any food your walk twenty blocks out of your way and then wait in line for has to be great, or you'd be a fool to have spent time on it. But, even if I'm skeptical, I enjoy them immensely.
But, as a west coast US kid, I also have a deep fondness for both blueberry and jalapeño bagels. Which aren't the California bagels they're talking about here, but are the California bagels of my youth. They're now roughly 30% as old a tradition as real bagels.
posted by eotvos at 3:17 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
But, as a west coast US kid, I also have a deep fondness for both blueberry and jalapeño bagels. Which aren't the California bagels they're talking about here, but are the California bagels of my youth. They're now roughly 30% as old a tradition as real bagels.
posted by eotvos at 3:17 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
“Frozen bagels from CostCo” doesn’t make as compelling a clickbait article.
posted by geoff. at 3:18 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by geoff. at 3:18 PM on March 13, 2021
the best bagels I have access to are frozen and have packaging that looks like it's for a audio cassette tape of canned answering machine messages.
Bagels Forever out of Madison, Wisconsin? I've always found their styling odd and I like your description of it.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 3:18 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Bagels Forever out of Madison, Wisconsin? I've always found their styling odd and I like your description of it.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 3:18 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
a bagel emoji and everyone rightly dunked
Which is silly, because as everyone knows donuts are for dunking!
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:20 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Which is silly, because as everyone knows donuts are for dunking!
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:20 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: adds importance to the bagel
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:22 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:22 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Belle's Bagels are delicious and worthy of the hype and this is the hill I'm going to die on even though it's going to make getting them even harder.
posted by ApathyGirl at 3:22 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by ApathyGirl at 3:22 PM on March 13, 2021
Also St Viteur is a tourist trap.
posted by PinkMoose at 6:09 PM
Founded by a holocaust survivor, wood-fired oven, still using the same recipe as when it started in 1957? It's a trap I gladly walk into over and over again.
posted by jeremias at 3:26 PM on March 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 6:09 PM
Founded by a holocaust survivor, wood-fired oven, still using the same recipe as when it started in 1957? It's a trap I gladly walk into over and over again.
posted by jeremias at 3:26 PM on March 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
I didn't know about the holocaust survivor, but you could travel a few more blocks and get the better bagel..
posted by PinkMoose at 3:30 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PinkMoose at 3:30 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Blah blah blah, New York claims to have the best bagels, Tri-State expats living in California claim to have replicated their qualities, Montreal huffs in all "what about meeeeeee???" I'm just surprised nobody's brought up the St. Louis vertically sliced bagels kerfuffle yet ;)
(Disclaimers: I grew up eating Noah's Bagels, including the blueberry ones eotvos mentions, in the exact same shop that would later become Boichik Bagels (and thanks, NYT, for blowing up our secret three weeks before Passover, now I can't even get bagels delivered from them until Yom HaShoah); in my 20s, I dated a Lawn Guylander who had a Very Firm Definition of what a bagel should taste and feel like, though I don't subscribe to the whole "if you have to toast it it's already bad" doctrine; I'm with Frowner on Team Chewy. If it's too soft, it's a donut.)
posted by Pandora Kouti at 3:32 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
(Disclaimers: I grew up eating Noah's Bagels, including the blueberry ones eotvos mentions, in the exact same shop that would later become Boichik Bagels (and thanks, NYT, for blowing up our secret three weeks before Passover, now I can't even get bagels delivered from them until Yom HaShoah); in my 20s, I dated a Lawn Guylander who had a Very Firm Definition of what a bagel should taste and feel like, though I don't subscribe to the whole "if you have to toast it it's already bad" doctrine; I'm with Frowner on Team Chewy. If it's too soft, it's a donut.)
posted by Pandora Kouti at 3:32 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
The headline doesn't necessarily match the content, I am not sure she ever says these LA bagels are superior, just that they are very good. I had a Yeastie Boys bagel today and it was pretty good. Definitely had better in New York.
posted by chaz at 3:36 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by chaz at 3:36 PM on March 13, 2021
Does Brothers Bagels still exist? On Gilman St.?
It's now Berkeley Bagels after being known as Boogie Woogie Bagels for some time.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:36 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's now Berkeley Bagels after being known as Boogie Woogie Bagels for some time.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:36 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I know anybody can say anything on the internet, but: one of the profiled CA bagel makers in that article is a lifelong friend, and their life has turned absolutely upside down since it came out. It's kind of hilarious? They were just sort of doing their own thing, really making astoundingly delish bagels, and yeah, it's a small business they're trying to grow so they definitely wanted the promo, but they have been absolutely BOMBARDED -- with vitriol but also with orders -- since it came out. They're actually going to be able to hire a proper staff now, so the upshot will be more delish bagels in the world. So I guess that's great!?
posted by BlahLaLa at 3:40 PM on March 13, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 3:40 PM on March 13, 2021 [23 favorites]
Bagels Forever out of Madison, Wisconsin?
Yep that's exactly what I'm talking about.
posted by Ferreous at 3:44 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
St. Viateur for the win. No one will beat them.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:55 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:55 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
My theory about pizza and bagels is that back in the olden days, when these were specialized ethnic foods, only places that had those ethnic groups in such concentration as to support restaurants and bakeries had good versions. So, New York City, basically. Now that lots of different people live in lots of places, you can get a good whatever in wherever, and people just say that the NYC bagels and pizza are better because that's become a tradition.
posted by blnkfrnk at 3:57 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 3:57 PM on March 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
Little Caesar's bagel with the cheese, onion, and lox built into the ring.
posted by rhizome at 3:58 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 3:58 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
Just wanted to extend a shout out to Jamjam. Celiac is very hard.
posted by doctornemo at 4:05 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 4:05 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
Native New Yorker year. I typically disdain all other bagels.
But I will try these... west coast things when I can travel again.
posted by doctornemo at 4:06 PM on March 13, 2021
But I will try these... west coast things when I can travel again.
posted by doctornemo at 4:06 PM on March 13, 2021
Rubenstein Bagels in Seattle is pretty good. If you like the other kind we have Blazing Bagels but for a bagel made in the old way Rubestein's is the way to go.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 4:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Ignorantsavage at 4:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
kyrademon: As everyone knows, the best bagels are the ones that came from that one place we went to a lot when I was a kid.
The Brooklyn Public Library presents the 16MM short Hot Bagels
Pandora Kouti: I don't subscribe to the whole "if you have to toast it it's already bad" doctrine;
Counterpoint: If you walk into a hot bagel place and they ask you if you would like a freshly baked bagel toasted (1) The have no confidence in their product and (2) they have no respect for the poor schmuck who has been there since 2:30 AM baking them FRESH.
posted by mikelieman at 4:31 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Brooklyn Public Library presents the 16MM short Hot Bagels
Pandora Kouti: I don't subscribe to the whole "if you have to toast it it's already bad" doctrine;
Counterpoint: If you walk into a hot bagel place and they ask you if you would like a freshly baked bagel toasted (1) The have no confidence in their product and (2) they have no respect for the poor schmuck who has been there since 2:30 AM baking them FRESH.
posted by mikelieman at 4:31 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
So I have to drive down to LA now to get a bagel for my 6 year old friend because it has his four favorite ingredients- bagel, tomato, salmon roe, and Persian cucumber. He currently has to suffer with San Francisco bagels.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:47 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by njohnson23 at 4:47 PM on March 13, 2021
> As such, we were spoiled for choice and only the truly good survived
Yeah, and I think there's something to be said for local cuisine that's hard to find done badly. Maybe if I tried bagels for years, my favorite bagel on earth would be in Los Angeles or Montreal or Tokyo or Biloxi, but in New York I know I can get a good bagel pretty much anywhere.
Are the best bagels in Forest Hills or the Lower East Side or in Maplewood, NJ? I don't care. There's a good bagel around the corner if I want one.
posted by smelendez at 4:55 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah, and I think there's something to be said for local cuisine that's hard to find done badly. Maybe if I tried bagels for years, my favorite bagel on earth would be in Los Angeles or Montreal or Tokyo or Biloxi, but in New York I know I can get a good bagel pretty much anywhere.
Are the best bagels in Forest Hills or the Lower East Side or in Maplewood, NJ? I don't care. There's a good bagel around the corner if I want one.
posted by smelendez at 4:55 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
Incorrect. The best bagels are Montreal bagels.
Who hurt you?
according to the rest of Canada, the answer to that is Toronto.
(not sure why)
With respect to bagels, it's because Toronto bagels are steamed rather than boiled and are distinctly inferior to Montreal bagels.
posted by mightygodking at 4:56 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Who hurt you?
according to the rest of Canada, the answer to that is Toronto.
(not sure why)
With respect to bagels, it's because Toronto bagels are steamed rather than boiled and are distinctly inferior to Montreal bagels.
posted by mightygodking at 4:56 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
The best bagels are Montreal bagels.
As a New Yorker that spent a year in Montreal, I was initially puzzled by the bagels up there. Until I realized that unlike New York bagels, that are same-day bagels, Montreal bagels keep for a while and toasting is absolutely mandatory. Ideal would be both styles from one shop.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:04 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
As a New Yorker that spent a year in Montreal, I was initially puzzled by the bagels up there. Until I realized that unlike New York bagels, that are same-day bagels, Montreal bagels keep for a while and toasting is absolutely mandatory. Ideal would be both styles from one shop.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:04 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
The best bagels are six o'clock in the morning fresh out of the oven with very hot black coffee.
posted by charlesminus at 5:08 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by charlesminus at 5:08 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
best bagels are six o'clock in the morning fresh
Even better if you walk by one famous bagel shop, six blocks up the street to an even better bagel shop.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
Even better if you walk by one famous bagel shop, six blocks up the street to an even better bagel shop.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:12 PM on March 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
Boogie Woogie Bagels was fine but I have had some truly wretched bagels in the East Bay. Actually I sort of understand how someone could decide there isn't good bread in SF if they were looking for a few particular kinds of bread. I'm glad to hear that this is changing.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:13 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 5:13 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
unlike New York bagels, that are same-day bagels, Montreal bagels keep for a while and toasting is absolutely mandatory
Allo, la police? Oui. Oui, c'est une urgence.
posted by mhoye at 5:14 PM on March 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
Allo, la police? Oui. Oui, c'est une urgence.
posted by mhoye at 5:14 PM on March 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
St. Viateur for the win. No one will beat them.
Except for Fairmount, this is true.
posted by jeather at 5:17 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
Except for Fairmount, this is true.
posted by jeather at 5:17 PM on March 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
best bagels are six o'clock in the morning fresh
Even better if you walk by one famous bagel shop, six blocks up the street to an even better bagel shop.
according to my montreal-born partner, the absolute best is when that 6 am walk is on your way home from partying all night
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:39 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Even better if you walk by one famous bagel shop, six blocks up the street to an even better bagel shop.
according to my montreal-born partner, the absolute best is when that 6 am walk is on your way home from partying all night
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:39 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm just surprised nobody's brought up the St. Louis vertically sliced bagels kerfuffle yet
I missed that, but by following the link found out that Panera started out as the St. Louis Bread Company (which it is still known as in the franchises in that area, and which is a very St. Louis name), before being bought by Au Bon Pain.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:05 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I missed that, but by following the link found out that Panera started out as the St. Louis Bread Company (which it is still known as in the franchises in that area, and which is a very St. Louis name), before being bought by Au Bon Pain.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:05 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I will be eating my first Boichik bagel untoasted, with butter, to establish a baseline. If its great like that, we have a winner.
posted by supermedusa at 6:18 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by supermedusa at 6:18 PM on March 13, 2021
I can attest to the deliciousness of Boichik bagels. I had them for breakfast today. I buy them frozen at my local market. They're $18 for 6, which is a little pricey but they're excellent. She had a few popups and quickly gained a loyal following. It took her a long while to open and then the pandemic hit. I'm glad her bagels are in local stores.
posted by shoesietart at 6:23 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by shoesietart at 6:23 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Speaking of Au Bon Pain, I was extremely weirded out when I got to California and saw Au Bon Pain cafes, because I could *swear* that Au Bon Pain was a local to DC operation that had been founded in the 70s or so to produce better bread than could be found locally (and I dimly recall that my father was acquainted with one of them), and that I remembered mostly because it had some tasty almond croissants that you could pick up in boxes at Safeway. And that it had vanished at some point before the 90s. But none of that seems to match the history of the corporation in Wikipedia, even though the graphics on the cafe sign still seemed identical to the Au Bon Pain boxes I remembered, so I'm wondering what the heck I am remembering.
posted by tavella at 6:30 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 6:30 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
mikelieman: Counterpoint: If you walk into a hot bagel place and they ask you if you would like a freshly baked bagel toastedYeah, I should've been more specific - fresh bagels that have to be toasted to be any good are a travesty! But if you're getting them at the end of the day, or from the grocery store, rather than directly from a bagel bakery, toasting is fine. Either way, though, best when warm, especially on a cold sleety day.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 6:30 PM on March 13, 2021
I discovered Boichik Bagels last week and got Pumpernickel, Sesame and Everything. They're quite good, although the pumpernickel was a little bland, IMHO. I'd like to do a side by side taste test with some of the ones I used to get in Kew Gardens. My recollection is that those, and most NYC bagels I've had in various other places, were chewier and more 'bagel'-y, but I can't be sure since it's been so long.
Still, Boichik's are right up there with the best Bagels I ever found in London, and very good is still very good even if I do still feel that they're not quite as good as my memory of NYC bagels.
I wonder if I get there early enough I'll be able to get some still warm from the oven.
posted by ursus_comiter at 6:33 PM on March 13, 2021
Still, Boichik's are right up there with the best Bagels I ever found in London, and very good is still very good even if I do still feel that they're not quite as good as my memory of NYC bagels.
I wonder if I get there early enough I'll be able to get some still warm from the oven.
posted by ursus_comiter at 6:33 PM on March 13, 2021
Aha, I figured it out. It was actually a Vie de France cafe I saw, and Vie de France was indeed local to DC and it looks like it went through a couple of buyouts and the name but not much else ended up in the hands of a Japanese bakery chain which eventually re-expanded to the US.
posted by tavella at 6:35 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 6:35 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I admit that I didn't RTFA and am instead responding to a portion that Stephen Colbert quoted when he addressed this in one of his monologues....I believe that this is coming down to a texture thing, I remember Colbert saying that the article said the California bagels were softer or had a thinner shell. He then said he is a staunch chewy-bagel fan, and I am as well.
...And the talk of how many bagel places there are in NYC is reminding me of some years back, when I was briefly dating a Seattle-born dude long-distance from NYC to UConn (he was doing a masters' there). He was visiting me one weekend, and one morning he innocently asked me, "So, is there a good place to get a bagel nearby?"
"....Dude, you know you're in Brooklyn, right?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:38 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
...And the talk of how many bagel places there are in NYC is reminding me of some years back, when I was briefly dating a Seattle-born dude long-distance from NYC to UConn (he was doing a masters' there). He was visiting me one weekend, and one morning he innocently asked me, "So, is there a good place to get a bagel nearby?"
"....Dude, you know you're in Brooklyn, right?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:38 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
I grew up on the East Coast, with family both in Brooklyn and on Long Island that we visited a few times a year. I'm now in the south Bay Area, luckily within the once-a-week Boichik Bagels delivery circuit.
Boichik is the closest I've had to Brooklyn bagels in a very very long time. I've had their plain, salt, and egg bagels so far, and the textures are *perfect*. They also do a very VERY good bialy when they hit it right, but I've seen some inconsistency with those (like, a couple have been severely underproofed, which kills the texture).
posted by hanov3r at 6:48 PM on March 13, 2021
Boichik is the closest I've had to Brooklyn bagels in a very very long time. I've had their plain, salt, and egg bagels so far, and the textures are *perfect*. They also do a very VERY good bialy when they hit it right, but I've seen some inconsistency with those (like, a couple have been severely underproofed, which kills the texture).
posted by hanov3r at 6:48 PM on March 13, 2021
Have a local place in Utah I get bagels from most weekends before skiing, and they are excellent.
I really don’t buy into the whole regional food claims around bagels.....you can get a great bagel almost anywhere. Just as long as the bakery is at an altitude above 6500 feet you’ll be just fine.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:09 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
I really don’t buy into the whole regional food claims around bagels.....you can get a great bagel almost anywhere. Just as long as the bakery is at an altitude above 6500 feet you’ll be just fine.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:09 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
I lived around the corner from where Boichik bagels is now for nine years... finally there are good bagels in the neighborhood, it seems. When I was there, that same site was the original Noah's Bagels store, setting loose a plague of horrible puffy bagels upon the world...
Now I'm in Pittsburgh, and can heartily recommend Pigeon Bagels here. I'll have to try Boichik next time I'm in Berkeley, though.
posted by janewman at 7:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now I'm in Pittsburgh, and can heartily recommend Pigeon Bagels here. I'll have to try Boichik next time I'm in Berkeley, though.
posted by janewman at 7:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am a born and raised NYer. To me it is like Domino's pizza. It is good food, but not good pizza. Tastes great but not what a pizza should be. I am sure LA bagels are good food, but a good bagel requires a surly counter person too.
Now ask me about Bodo's in Charlottesville and that is damn good bagel food. Best hangover food other than maybe a Gus Burger from the Spot.
posted by AugustWest at 7:41 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now ask me about Bodo's in Charlottesville and that is damn good bagel food. Best hangover food other than maybe a Gus Burger from the Spot.
posted by AugustWest at 7:41 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I used to live nearish to Belle's Bagels and while they are definitely tasty bagels, I couldn't deal with the line and the wait. Hopefully at some point they can have a real home where they can make enough bagels to not run out before close everyday.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 7:43 PM on March 13, 2021
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 7:43 PM on March 13, 2021
It's not a real bagel unless it comes from the Bagelle region of France.
posted by adept256 at 8:10 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 8:10 PM on March 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I used to be a hater of New York food snobs and regional food snobs in general, but the way New York got gutted by covid made me rethink things.
New York doesn't really have much impact on anything outside the news media these days and with the way covid has emptied it out I don't think that will change any time soon.
Who does it hurt if we let New Yorkers think that they eat the best pizza and bagels and buttered rolls and breakfast sandwiches?
posted by zymil at 9:13 PM on March 13, 2021
New York doesn't really have much impact on anything outside the news media these days and with the way covid has emptied it out I don't think that will change any time soon.
Who does it hurt if we let New Yorkers think that they eat the best pizza and bagels and buttered rolls and breakfast sandwiches?
posted by zymil at 9:13 PM on March 13, 2021
I used to live in NYC. A few extended visits to Montreal. But I never craved a bagel until flyover country. NYC Bagel and Bialy, just north of Chicago. There have been multiple parking lot noshings, there.
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 9:34 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 9:34 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
THE 'best' bagels can be found in a Jewish deli just next to the Gant's Hill Roundabout in Ilford, Essex, UK. When I lived in locations around the world, where bagels were not an item to be purchased at all, I learned how to make them myself... then... THE best bagels are to be found coming out of my oven.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 10:01 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 10:01 PM on March 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
You know it is actually possible to make bagels at home that taste like bagels.
posted by bq at 10:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 10:11 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
This thread is wild to me. Why does NY have such good, fresh bagels and such *terrible* stale gross donuts (don't @ me about "cronuts")? And yet California had a whole ecosystem of tiny fresh hot donut shops and few good bagels to speak of...
posted by muddgirl at 10:29 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 10:29 PM on March 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
California has great donuts everywhere because of Cambodian refugees. No idea why NY donuts suck.
posted by Arbac at 10:40 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Arbac at 10:40 PM on March 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Bagel debates are just a silly distraction from the real issue. The problem isn’t the bagels… there’s no reason great bagels can’t be made in LA or any other city by anybody.
No, the problem is that outside of New York it’s so hard to find belly lox to put on your bagel. Fatty, buttery, super-salty belly lox. The stuff they might second-guess you about at Russ & Daughters or Shelsky’s when you order it.
“Have you had it before?” they’ll ask, warily.
“Not nearly enough of it” is a good response.
posted by theory at 10:50 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
No, the problem is that outside of New York it’s so hard to find belly lox to put on your bagel. Fatty, buttery, super-salty belly lox. The stuff they might second-guess you about at Russ & Daughters or Shelsky’s when you order it.
“Have you had it before?” they’ll ask, warily.
“Not nearly enough of it” is a good response.
posted by theory at 10:50 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's now Berkeley Bagels after being known as Boogie Woogie Bagels for some time
"Boogie Woogie Bagel Boy" was right there.
posted by howfar at 1:18 AM on March 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
"Boogie Woogie Bagel Boy" was right there.
posted by howfar at 1:18 AM on March 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
"Boogie Woogie Bagel Boy" was right there.
That was actually their old name! I remember going there in the late 90s and that was the name they had. Not sure why they changed it.
posted by un petit cadeau at 1:29 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
That was actually their old name! I remember going there in the late 90s and that was the name they had. Not sure why they changed it.
posted by un petit cadeau at 1:29 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
My god I was not going to comment (because I am not a well-traveled bagel connoisseur), but the best bagel I ever ate was from Russ & Daughters, and it impresses me because I remember nothing about the bagel which was kind of a background stage for the filling, which was cream cheese studded with caviar, and then those pieces of lox. I think I ate it outside, and it was utterly delicious. And the tall guy did ask me if I really wanted the lox!
posted by polymodus at 3:29 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 3:29 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
There have been multiple parking lot noshings, there.
Well that's sentence that got a second varda, I can tell you. Polari about the dangers of linguistic false friends...
posted by howfar at 4:19 AM on March 14, 2021
Well that's sentence that got a second varda, I can tell you. Polari about the dangers of linguistic false friends...
posted by howfar at 4:19 AM on March 14, 2021
I suppose bagels for that kind of noshing would have to be served with cottage cheese.
posted by howfar at 4:25 AM on March 14, 2021
posted by howfar at 4:25 AM on March 14, 2021
Until I realized that unlike New York bagels, that are same-day bagels, Montreal bagels keep for a while and toasting is absolutely mandatory. Ideal would be both styles from one shop.
One of the hazards for going to Kettlemans for fresh bagels is that on the way home those that went to fetch the bagels might, unavoidably, eat one or two each. Because hot bagel, right out of the wood oven. The art of ordering requires consideration of the bagel affordance that has to be made for the travel home.
Also St. Viateur Bakery has a bagels-in-a-box delivery program that has been real lifeline in the past year. Frozen bagels aren't the same as out of the oven fresh, but yes, Montreal-style bagels do hold up pretty well to being frozen and then toasted.
posted by bonehead at 6:33 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
One of the hazards for going to Kettlemans for fresh bagels is that on the way home those that went to fetch the bagels might, unavoidably, eat one or two each. Because hot bagel, right out of the wood oven. The art of ordering requires consideration of the bagel affordance that has to be made for the travel home.
Also St. Viateur Bakery has a bagels-in-a-box delivery program that has been real lifeline in the past year. Frozen bagels aren't the same as out of the oven fresh, but yes, Montreal-style bagels do hold up pretty well to being frozen and then toasted.
posted by bonehead at 6:33 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Why does NY have such good, fresh bagels and such *terrible* stale gross donuts (don't @ me about "cronuts")? And yet California had a whole ecosystem of tiny fresh hot donut shops and few good bagels to speak of.
My wife’s great aunt, who grew up in NY but has lived in LA for many decades now, loves the fresh bagels we bring to her, but cannot understand why my first stop on every trip out there is to a donut shop. I must eat a dozen donuts every time I’m in LA.
And yeah, the Donut King story is fascinating but also sad, for Ted at least.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:18 AM on March 14, 2021
My wife’s great aunt, who grew up in NY but has lived in LA for many decades now, loves the fresh bagels we bring to her, but cannot understand why my first stop on every trip out there is to a donut shop. I must eat a dozen donuts every time I’m in LA.
And yeah, the Donut King story is fascinating but also sad, for Ted at least.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:18 AM on March 14, 2021
Well that's sentence that got a second varda, I can tell you. Polari about the dangers of linguistic false friends...
I'd never heard of Polari before, that is interesting. But are those meanings of the word really "false friends"? There is a logical connection and language play in both meanings -- putting things in your mouth, etc. Like saying one is "eating at the Y" or any number of phrases like that, rather than a false cognate like embarrassed/embarazada.
As others have said, there is something nice about being in an area where the standard of a type of food is really high, which brings up the average. In places without that standard for that type of food, it's a lot more likely to get something disappointing.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 AM on March 14, 2021
I'd never heard of Polari before, that is interesting. But are those meanings of the word really "false friends"? There is a logical connection and language play in both meanings -- putting things in your mouth, etc. Like saying one is "eating at the Y" or any number of phrases like that, rather than a false cognate like embarrassed/embarazada.
As others have said, there is something nice about being in an area where the standard of a type of food is really high, which brings up the average. In places without that standard for that type of food, it's a lot more likely to get something disappointing.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 AM on March 14, 2021
Just the fact that this thread already has almost 100 comments makes me so happy I feel like I don't even need to read the thread. If people are arguing about the relative goodness of regional bagels again then something in the world is going back to normal and I am HERE FOR IT.
ps nothing about bagels will ever be great again ever since H & H on 81st street closed I don't care what the NY Times article says about them being miraculously "reborn" in Berkeley, Feh.
posted by Mchelly at 7:53 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
ps nothing about bagels will ever be great again ever since H & H on 81st street closed I don't care what the NY Times article says about them being miraculously "reborn" in Berkeley, Feh.
posted by Mchelly at 7:53 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Perhaps this is just a symptom of the particular variety of "everything's better in New York" provincialism expressed by displaced New Yorkers in DC, but what I've found interesting is the number of people who have claimed* (and presumably wholeheartedly believed) that even a random corner deli in New York will have a better bagel than is available anywhere else in the world. I think part of that is just the expectation that a random corner deli in NYC is itself such an exemplar of what it means to live in NYC that any faults with the bagel are in the mind or taste buds of the recipient. But I've had several random corner deli bagels (and one desperation street vendor bagel) and I can assure you that the average NYC bagel does not carry the magic that certain New Yorkers have extended to it. It turns out that even in NYC you may have to travel for a good bagel.
(* Nobody in this thread has claimed this. Not trying to make a straw man argument.)
Ess-a-Bagel was a few blocks from a previous employer's NYC office. I always stopped there for breakfast when I had business at that office, but it always just struck me as a pretty good bagel. I wouldn't complain about it, but it didn't strike me as the best bagel. Some friends used to live a couple blocks from the Bagel Hole in Park Slope. Those I thought were generally better than Ess-a-Bagel (less puffy, better distinction between crust and crumb), but still not the best bagel. The fish at Russ & Daughters was incredible, but the bagel was just OK (not better than, say, College Park Bagels in the DC suburbs). My personal bagel apostasy is that the best bagel I've ever paid for was actually in Toronto, but then I've never been to Montreal, so I assume I'm still stuck in Plato's cave.
Like several others in this thread, though, I've taken matters into my own hands (and stand mixer). I just had a homemade bagel for breakfast today, in fact. I think rather than the location or the water, the bigger indicator of quality is just going to be the care that went into it. A straight dough process without any time for flavor development isn't going to produce a very good bagel. That's how you get white bread with a hole. The more you focus on bagel-specific technique and flavor development (timing and temperature of fermentation, when and how you incorporate malt, whether or not you're using a sourdough starter, retardation of the bulk dough or shaped bagels, and so on) the better the bagels are going to be. A big, industrial process probably isn't going to result in a bagel that's as delicious as somebody who's hand rolling and retarding the dough overnight before boiling and baking. Every California business in that article was closer to the artisanal end of the spectrum.
posted by fedward at 8:15 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
(* Nobody in this thread has claimed this. Not trying to make a straw man argument.)
Ess-a-Bagel was a few blocks from a previous employer's NYC office. I always stopped there for breakfast when I had business at that office, but it always just struck me as a pretty good bagel. I wouldn't complain about it, but it didn't strike me as the best bagel. Some friends used to live a couple blocks from the Bagel Hole in Park Slope. Those I thought were generally better than Ess-a-Bagel (less puffy, better distinction between crust and crumb), but still not the best bagel. The fish at Russ & Daughters was incredible, but the bagel was just OK (not better than, say, College Park Bagels in the DC suburbs). My personal bagel apostasy is that the best bagel I've ever paid for was actually in Toronto, but then I've never been to Montreal, so I assume I'm still stuck in Plato's cave.
Like several others in this thread, though, I've taken matters into my own hands (and stand mixer). I just had a homemade bagel for breakfast today, in fact. I think rather than the location or the water, the bigger indicator of quality is just going to be the care that went into it. A straight dough process without any time for flavor development isn't going to produce a very good bagel. That's how you get white bread with a hole. The more you focus on bagel-specific technique and flavor development (timing and temperature of fermentation, when and how you incorporate malt, whether or not you're using a sourdough starter, retardation of the bulk dough or shaped bagels, and so on) the better the bagels are going to be. A big, industrial process probably isn't going to result in a bagel that's as delicious as somebody who's hand rolling and retarding the dough overnight before boiling and baking. Every California business in that article was closer to the artisanal end of the spectrum.
posted by fedward at 8:15 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
As far as I could tell from speed-skimming they only laud two balgelries that are around here (Bay Area): Boichik, which are pretty good, and Daily Driver, which are so lousy it makes me mad every time I walk past their store. I think my favorite Bay Area bagel is Beauty’s, which is a good Montreal style bagel, and I think my favorite bagel worldwide is Bagelsaurus, near Porter Square in Cambridge. Next time I’m out there, I’m told I should try Goldilox; we’ll see! I haven’t spent much time in NYC or Montreal though.
I sort of have a hobby of going places that have no business making bagels and then getting huffy about the poor quality of their bagels. Salt Lake City Airport is the current winner for inexcusable not-a-bagel bagels. The bagels I had in I-forget-which-small-town in Normandy otoh, were totally not proper bagels at all but were still extremely good because they sure aren’t going to make a low quality baked good in that country.
posted by aubilenon at 9:14 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I sort of have a hobby of going places that have no business making bagels and then getting huffy about the poor quality of their bagels. Salt Lake City Airport is the current winner for inexcusable not-a-bagel bagels. The bagels I had in I-forget-which-small-town in Normandy otoh, were totally not proper bagels at all but were still extremely good because they sure aren’t going to make a low quality baked good in that country.
posted by aubilenon at 9:14 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
"In France, we have a bread culture, and in France, if the bread weren't adapted, no one would eat bagels," says Olivier. How Parisians Fell in Love with Their Own Weird Interpretation of Bagels:
posted by fedward at 9:24 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
It wasn't until 1992 that Joseph's grandson Alain Korcarz began selling the American bagel with its "texture of chewing gum," according to Alain. He claims to have been the first person to bake them in Paris, at the behest of Euro Disney's Mike Leisner. Of course, transitioning from the beigel to the bagel was no easy feat. After six months of attempts, Alain called in an expert—not from Poland, but from the United States—to teach him to reproduce a real New York boiled bagel, with its dense, chewy interior and crisp skin.The article is a few years old, but it's fun.
The rest, as they say, was history. Euro Disney brought Alain a bagel machine from the States, and he happily provided the park's bagels for four or five years, upon which his contract came to an end.
"Europeans didn't want that kind of bagel," he shrugs.
posted by fedward at 9:24 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now I'm in Pittsburgh, and can heartily recommend Pigeon Bagels here. I'll have to try Boichik next time I'm in Berkeley, though.
I keep meaning to get over there and try those but somehow never feel like driving all the way to Squirrel Hill on a Sunday morning.
posted by octothorpe at 9:40 AM on March 14, 2021
I keep meaning to get over there and try those but somehow never feel like driving all the way to Squirrel Hill on a Sunday morning.
posted by octothorpe at 9:40 AM on March 14, 2021
BTW I was trying to figure out if that Paris article had been posted here before and came across this previous thread about a 2015 NYT article, Why Is It So Hard to Get a Great Bagel in California?. 'When I presented one of his bagels to an East Coast transplant, he looked at it and said, ‘‘I don’t even want to taste it — I know it will make me sad.’’' Whose sad bagel was that? Why, it was Dan Graf's bagel from Baron Baking, previously featured in the Times in 2012 under the headline In the Bay Area, Bagels as Good as Brooklyn’s. But they liked them again in a tasting in 2016.
In conclusion, the NYT's bagel writing is a land of contrasts.
posted by fedward at 9:57 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
In conclusion, the NYT's bagel writing is a land of contrasts.
posted by fedward at 9:57 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are great bagels in both places, and great pizza too, but some of the worst pizza and worst bagels I’ve ever had have been in New York, at places recommended by friends who live there. Same for red sauce Italian and a lot of Chinese food.
I’ll never get over New Yorkers assuming that they’re somehow the best at something just by virtue of being in New York and doing it for a long time. People have gotten complacent, and would rather guffaw at the idea that somewhere else could match or exceed the quality of what they consider to be their culinary home turf than look at things objectively and consider that maybe, just maybe, there’s been an overall downhill slide from mass production or corner cutting and it’s been so gradual that you haven’t noticed. Or the idealized version of a thing an artifact, trapped in amber, unchangeable for fear of it no longer being “authentic” when the rest of the world has moved on to a brighter future.
The average New York bagel is pretty bad these days, as is the average California bagel. Neither is made better by virtue of their place, but it’s a lot easier to stand out in California if you try even just a little bit. People will line of around the block for a great bagel. New York bagels are a commodity.
Anyway, Montreal bagels rule.
posted by mikesch at 10:00 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I’ll never get over New Yorkers assuming that they’re somehow the best at something just by virtue of being in New York and doing it for a long time. People have gotten complacent, and would rather guffaw at the idea that somewhere else could match or exceed the quality of what they consider to be their culinary home turf than look at things objectively and consider that maybe, just maybe, there’s been an overall downhill slide from mass production or corner cutting and it’s been so gradual that you haven’t noticed. Or the idealized version of a thing an artifact, trapped in amber, unchangeable for fear of it no longer being “authentic” when the rest of the world has moved on to a brighter future.
The average New York bagel is pretty bad these days, as is the average California bagel. Neither is made better by virtue of their place, but it’s a lot easier to stand out in California if you try even just a little bit. People will line of around the block for a great bagel. New York bagels are a commodity.
Anyway, Montreal bagels rule.
posted by mikesch at 10:00 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
The best bagels are the ones I make in my kitchen.
posted by freakazoid at 10:15 AM on March 14, 2021
posted by freakazoid at 10:15 AM on March 14, 2021
No love for Boston bagels? Sort of like New York bagels, but smaller. Maybe it's just not the same now that Kupel's in Brookline (mm, their whitefish salad ...) doesn't have competition from Eagerman's Baigels a few doors down, where Moe Eagerman himself would stand there on Sundays glowering at everybody in line as if he expected them to steal some bagels or challahs if he took his eye off them for even a second as the store manager, a big hulking guy who looked like Bluto from Popeye, but with a cross on a necklace, would rush out back to get more bagels.
posted by adamg at 10:18 AM on March 14, 2021
posted by adamg at 10:18 AM on March 14, 2021
I used to live in Oakland, CA. There was a really amazing kosher deli on my street, just past the BART station. I always had to go there before doing any shopping, because they'd glare if I brought in bags from outside. I once had to wait behind an old white guy trying to order a pastrami and cheese while the woman behind the till patiently tried to explain kashrut to him. It was Oakland, not Brooklyn, I guess.
Anyway, they made the best bagels I've ever tasted, even after getting all the usual tours from lifelong Manhattanites. I used to urge people to go to this place, but yeah maybe don't bring in a sausage you bought across the street OK? And my friends all reacted the same way:
"The cream cheese was lumpy."
I never knew how to react to that. I mean, sure it had a slight cottage-cheese texture, and was probably not homogenised through whatever funny oils the supermarket brands use. But how could you enjoy these amazing bagels and not think "Oh that's a new texture to me. Delicious!"
They moved shortly before I left the US, and closed shortly after. You can't ever go back.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:36 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Anyway, they made the best bagels I've ever tasted, even after getting all the usual tours from lifelong Manhattanites. I used to urge people to go to this place, but yeah maybe don't bring in a sausage you bought across the street OK? And my friends all reacted the same way:
"The cream cheese was lumpy."
I never knew how to react to that. I mean, sure it had a slight cottage-cheese texture, and was probably not homogenised through whatever funny oils the supermarket brands use. But how could you enjoy these amazing bagels and not think "Oh that's a new texture to me. Delicious!"
They moved shortly before I left the US, and closed shortly after. You can't ever go back.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:36 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
In places without that standard for that type of food, it's a lot more likely to get something disappointing.
This is so true. I just last night had some very mediocre barbecue in Delray Beach, FL, and my husband's comment was, "it's the best barbecue we've had since we've lived here" which it was, but with the sad knowledge that no barbecue here was going to live up to what we were used to getting in North Carolina. Before we lived in North Carolina we lived near Chicago, and it is an absolute truth that the best Chicago pizza you will get around here comes out of my kitchen.
South Florida has some okay bagels, but they're mostly of the kind that you have to toast, it's very unlikely to get a perfect hot bagel.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:36 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is so true. I just last night had some very mediocre barbecue in Delray Beach, FL, and my husband's comment was, "it's the best barbecue we've had since we've lived here" which it was, but with the sad knowledge that no barbecue here was going to live up to what we were used to getting in North Carolina. Before we lived in North Carolina we lived near Chicago, and it is an absolute truth that the best Chicago pizza you will get around here comes out of my kitchen.
South Florida has some okay bagels, but they're mostly of the kind that you have to toast, it's very unlikely to get a perfect hot bagel.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:36 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
the best Chicago pizza you will get around here comes out of my kitchen.After six years, I've yet to find a pizza in Chicago that I'd order a second time. It's all so doughy and sweet, except on the south side where it's a dry cracker with a bit of sauce and not much else. (Well, there's deep dish, which is okay if you pay extra for vegetables and don't try to eat the cement-textured crust, but it's odd to call it pizza. And there's the $30/serving Neapolitan place that you have to wait an hour for. They're okay.) Cheers to those who love Chicago pizza - really, I mean it - but I'm looking forward to traveling to cities that make pizza I recognize as pizza in the future. (It may be a few trips before I get tired of good burritos and get around to pizza, though.)
What were we talking about? Right. . . bagels. I like bagels. Unlike sourdough, it seems like you can get good-enough bagels nearly everywhere. We should celebrate the unbelievable abundance of okay bagels while we also cheer for the great ones.
posted by eotvos at 11:16 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Those Courage Bagels bagels, both in the article and on their webpage, do not look anything like the Montreal-style bagels they claim to be - too uneven and puffy (maybe the lower gluten in American flour, and an unpracticed hand in rolling them right?). That said, I’d give them a try because it sounds like the owners are trying to make something that at least tastes good.
posted by cardboard at 12:41 PM on March 14, 2021
posted by cardboard at 12:41 PM on March 14, 2021
You're reminding me about how I used to say that deep-dish isn't pizza. I didn't quite go into cereal-soup territory, and this was referring to California deep-dish, but at the OMGYOUGUYS deep-dish place here it just tasted like so much dry tomato stew. In a pie crust.
I think a lot of the SF bagels I've had would have been as tolerable if they forewent one thing: whipped cream cheese. The thing about whipped cream cheese is that it melts into glop on a toasted bagel. I know store owners probably think it's more economical, but it is the WORST, and any store that does this to me is one I do not return to.
In downtown SF I knew/know of only one place I could get a bagel with real cream cheese, and that was the cubbyhole coffee place on the ground floor of one of the buildings I worked in. Every other place used either whipped, or gave you one of those 1oz Philly Cream Cheese tublets.
Eventually I learned to make my own salt bagels by buying Trader Joe's plain, cutting in half, slightly wetting the crust of each half and patting into a plate of kosher salt, then toasting. They're as good as pretty much any retail bagel not mentioned in the article.
posted by rhizome at 12:51 PM on March 14, 2021
I think a lot of the SF bagels I've had would have been as tolerable if they forewent one thing: whipped cream cheese. The thing about whipped cream cheese is that it melts into glop on a toasted bagel. I know store owners probably think it's more economical, but it is the WORST, and any store that does this to me is one I do not return to.
In downtown SF I knew/know of only one place I could get a bagel with real cream cheese, and that was the cubbyhole coffee place on the ground floor of one of the buildings I worked in. Every other place used either whipped, or gave you one of those 1oz Philly Cream Cheese tublets.
Eventually I learned to make my own salt bagels by buying Trader Joe's plain, cutting in half, slightly wetting the crust of each half and patting into a plate of kosher salt, then toasting. They're as good as pretty much any retail bagel not mentioned in the article.
posted by rhizome at 12:51 PM on March 14, 2021
You're reminding me about how I used to say that deep-dish isn't pizza. I didn't quite go into cereal-soup territory, and this was referring to California deep-dish, but at the OMGYOUGUYS deep-dish place here it just tasted like so much dry tomato stew. In a pie crust.
I refute it thus.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:14 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I refute it thus.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:14 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
My feeling about whipped cream cheese is it makes sense if you have soft squishy bagels that can’t hold up to solid, unaerated cream cheese. Which, 😕
posted by aubilenon at 4:13 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aubilenon at 4:13 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Those bagels don't exist!
I refute it thus.
Coincidentally, that was the exact pizza I was describing! I do have to say that it looks thinner than it tasted at the time.
posted by rhizome at 6:01 PM on March 14, 2021
I refute it thus.
Coincidentally, that was the exact pizza I was describing! I do have to say that it looks thinner than it tasted at the time.
posted by rhizome at 6:01 PM on March 14, 2021
You poor fools, don't you know that Bodo's Bagels in Charlottesville are the best? Two stories to illustrate.
For years I lived in NYC near a bagel place, and periodically I'd say things like "Let's go to Bodo's for lunch today." It was three years before my best friend was like, "What is this Bodo's place you keep talking about? Do you mean Mike's?"
I once saw the Google car cross four lanes of traffic coming off the bypass to get to the Bodo's on 29N. No judgement, mapping the world is hungry work.
In conclusion, walnut raisin on sesame, toasted.
posted by basalganglia at 7:00 PM on March 14, 2021
For years I lived in NYC near a bagel place, and periodically I'd say things like "Let's go to Bodo's for lunch today." It was three years before my best friend was like, "What is this Bodo's place you keep talking about? Do you mean Mike's?"
I once saw the Google car cross four lanes of traffic coming off the bypass to get to the Bodo's on 29N. No judgement, mapping the world is hungry work.
In conclusion, walnut raisin on sesame, toasted.
posted by basalganglia at 7:00 PM on March 14, 2021
I think my favorite Bay Area bagel is Beauty’s, which is a good Montreal style bagel, and I think my favorite bagel worldwide is Bagelsaurus, near Porter Square in Cambridge.
Hmmm, when was the last time you were at Beauty's? Because Wise Sons owns them now and the bagels are not the same. I used to love Beauty's bagels but had one last August after they got rid of the wood fired oven and honey water and it was not good. Totally lacking in chew or flavor; no crunch at all to the very light crust- they seemed almost underbaked. I haven't been back.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:58 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hmmm, when was the last time you were at Beauty's? Because Wise Sons owns them now and the bagels are not the same. I used to love Beauty's bagels but had one last August after they got rid of the wood fired oven and honey water and it was not good. Totally lacking in chew or flavor; no crunch at all to the very light crust- they seemed almost underbaked. I haven't been back.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:58 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hmmm, when was the last time you were at Beauty's? Because Wise Sons owns them now and the bagels are not the same
Within the last month!
I was aware of the acquisition, and I was very sad about it, as pre-pandemic I was going to the 17th st location pretty frequently. I've had lots of Wise Sons bagels, which I do think are pretty good. But I am pretty sure that the Temescal location's bagels aren't the same as what I get from the Wise Sons branded spots, e.g. Jessie Square (I haven't been back to 17th st since then for other reasons). I guess I'll have to do more comparative tasting.
posted by aubilenon at 10:33 PM on March 14, 2021
Within the last month!
I was aware of the acquisition, and I was very sad about it, as pre-pandemic I was going to the 17th st location pretty frequently. I've had lots of Wise Sons bagels, which I do think are pretty good. But I am pretty sure that the Temescal location's bagels aren't the same as what I get from the Wise Sons branded spots, e.g. Jessie Square (I haven't been back to 17th st since then for other reasons). I guess I'll have to do more comparative tasting.
posted by aubilenon at 10:33 PM on March 14, 2021
So last night I asked my parents (who live in Berkeley) whether they had ever had Boichik Bagels, claimed by the NYT (a paper to which they subscribe + revere) as the best bagels on the planet.
"Oh no, that's on the South Side."
[Most Berkeley answer ever.]
posted by chavenet at 2:16 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Oh no, that's on the South Side."
[Most Berkeley answer ever.]
posted by chavenet at 2:16 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why is everyone spelling the word incorrectly?
https://bricklanebeigel.co.uk/
Salt beef and hot mustard FTW!
posted by koolkat at 2:40 AM on March 15, 2021
https://bricklanebeigel.co.uk/
Salt beef and hot mustard FTW!
posted by koolkat at 2:40 AM on March 15, 2021
Why is everyone spelling the word incorrectly?
Easy. We aren't.
Except the Canadians. Because those are scarcely bagels at all. No, sorry, you can't have this one.
There's been a lot of turnover in Brooklyn. My current favorites are from Shelsky's in Park Slope, which are just like the ones my dad used to bring home on Sundays when I was a kid. Small, chewey, not the huge carbo-bombs that have become dominant elsewhere.
posted by 1adam12 at 3:44 AM on March 15, 2021
Easy. We aren't.
Except the Canadians. Because those are scarcely bagels at all. No, sorry, you can't have this one.
There's been a lot of turnover in Brooklyn. My current favorites are from Shelsky's in Park Slope, which are just like the ones my dad used to bring home on Sundays when I was a kid. Small, chewey, not the huge carbo-bombs that have become dominant elsewhere.
posted by 1adam12 at 3:44 AM on March 15, 2021
Every food has an origin story and a place where it is made best reflecting a cultural background. New York pizza is what it is because it plays an outsize role in New York Italian identity. And bagels are in a similar position as a New York identity food. You won't get far with bagel experimentation in the tri-state area. I am a born New Yorker and I know my bagels. You want a bagel? Wait until you are in New York... The baker in the article maintains that she was trying to recreate the bagels she used to get from H&R bagels. I used to get them at the H&R bakery factory, and it was a classic NY bagel, but it was a great bagel among many great NY bagels. Although Kossar's is pretty good (also bialys!) and my present go-to in the US is Teaneck Hot Bagels.
(Or Montreal. The Montreal bagel fills in a niche that was left uncovered by the New York bagel - the one sized so that can be dipped into little tubs of lox-flavored cream cheese. Similarly, I am at a loss as to who makes the best pastrami /smoked meat sandwich, Katz's Deli or Chez Schwartz. they are equally fantastic, with no competition near them. )
posted by zaelic at 4:44 AM on March 15, 2021
(Or Montreal. The Montreal bagel fills in a niche that was left uncovered by the New York bagel - the one sized so that can be dipped into little tubs of lox-flavored cream cheese. Similarly, I am at a loss as to who makes the best pastrami /smoked meat sandwich, Katz's Deli or Chez Schwartz. they are equally fantastic, with no competition near them. )
posted by zaelic at 4:44 AM on March 15, 2021
I don't doubt the article or the headline, but every work-catered breakfast I've ever had on the west coast, including LA and Seattle, served Einstein Brothers bagels, which is a generic chain, even while plenty of other food came from more local places. So the west coast might have some good bagels, but they don't have a 'bagel culture' where any thought (pride?) revolves around bagels. It's total afterthought food.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:19 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:19 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
But I am pretty sure that the Temescal location's bagels aren't the same as what I get from the Wise Sons branded spots, e.g. Jessie Square
I've heard something like this- people seem to like Wise Sons bagels, but be very unhappy with Beauty's. Yet they are supposedly all Wise Sons' recipes. Looks like further investigation is required!
posted by oneirodynia at 11:24 AM on March 15, 2021
I've heard something like this- people seem to like Wise Sons bagels, but be very unhappy with Beauty's. Yet they are supposedly all Wise Sons' recipes. Looks like further investigation is required!
posted by oneirodynia at 11:24 AM on March 15, 2021
Physicist, XBox creator, and historical baker Seamus Blackley takes us through the nuances and history of bagels and bagelmaking.
posted by rhizome at 12:19 PM on March 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:19 PM on March 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
That technique where he just pinches off a bagel from a long rope of dough was eye opening for me. I always weigh my dough balls out because I'm fussy about consistent size, but if I decide to relax on that I'll try the pinch. Also I'm really curious about how he adds more yeast when incorporating the poolish and then turns around and adds salt. I never add more yeast when I incorporate the rest of the ingredients into my sponge (another word for basically the same thing as a poolish) and I never have a problem with my bagels being overproofed.
posted by fedward at 1:10 PM on March 18, 2021
posted by fedward at 1:10 PM on March 18, 2021
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