Safety of an asocial society

April 8, 2021 9:59 PM

Safety is fatal: dynamics of social trust in human cultures
posted by daksya (12 comments total)

That was a good read and offered a lot to mull over. Thanks for the post.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:22 PM on April 8, 2021

Black people in America might die more than three times more often than whites in the pandemic, but they’re also less socially isolated via their higher representation in public-facing jobs in which they have to engage with others. Like the military advance guard, or those cells at the edge of the Petri dish colony, they’re more likely to learn more from extroverted risk

This is a bizarre juxtaposition that quite literally conscripts Black Americans (and minorities more generally) into providing a spiritual service of sorts, free of charge, at the quite literal cost of their lives.
posted by dmh at 12:58 AM on April 9, 2021 [19 favorites]

Post-shower thoughts: Black Americans and minorities more generally are presented in this piece as a kind of natural resource, a sort of vitamin that societies have to swallow if they want to grow up to be vigorous and healthy. The merits of that argument, such as it is, are in my view completely overwhelmed by the racist/racialist/colonialist connotations that it evokes. Consider: some unexamined (Western/White) "self" is made out to be too isolated and neurotic (read: too cerebral, too rich), and the cure for this malady lies in some vitalizing supplement, which is to be obtained from far-away folks who are "more social", "happier" (read: closer to nature, poor). Because biology (?!). The article, indeed, makes that connection quite explicit, blithely presenting Black Americans as "cells at the edge of the Petri dish colony". Science, yo.
posted by dmh at 2:06 AM on April 9, 2021 [18 favorites]

Black people in America might die more than three times more often than whites in the pandemic, but they’re also less socially isolated via their higher representation in public-facing jobs in which they have to engage with others.

But how would that explain the difference in suicide-rates to low-income whites? I wouldn't assume that low-income whites are terribly likely to have that sort of job that can easily be switched to telework either.

I remain unconvinced.
posted by sohalt at 2:21 AM on April 9, 2021 [1 favorite]

dmh, I think both that you're being ungenerous to the article, and also that the article is such a mess that I'm not sure it deserves your generosity. I think the author tries to head off some of your concerns (which I share) by discussing Herbert Spencer, but again the whole article is so meandering that I'd understand if you don't find it convincing.

I do think there are some interesting ideas floating around there. The work highlighted by Robin Dunbar on maximum community size sounds interesting to me, and I'd be interesting in hearing what other mefites think about it.

I also really like this passage from near the conclusion of the article:

Redundancy and diversity form the basis of every moral economy, which is why neoliberal economies – those that take what look like redundancies and eliminate them in the interest of ‘efficiency’ – fail miserably in assisting population wellbeing.

I think what the author is trying to highlight is how societies operate best when there's an equilibrium between local community, social transformation, and national structure. I think that's an interesting thesis, but I'm just not sure if they make a good case for it.
posted by Alex404 at 2:55 AM on April 9, 2021 [6 favorites]

Addendum: it looks like Robin Dunbar has been discussed on metafilter before, and the conclusion is mixed, at best. So yah... posted article... head scratch.
posted by Alex404 at 3:07 AM on April 9, 2021

But how would that explain the difference in suicide-rates to low-income whites?

my guess would be social support - a minority group will have each other's back in a way that a majority group doesn't feel like it needs to

whites (even if low-income), seeing themselves as naturally in charge of things and as the standard by which the world is measured creates a false strength and a pressure to fit into that false strength - when confronted with the difficulty of their situation, there may be less resilience, less ability to reach out for help, or less group cohesion to reach out to someone struggling

that's my dime store read on it, at least
posted by kokaku at 3:13 AM on April 9, 2021 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry to appear ungenerous, so I'll add that I thought it was an honest effort to marshal the acutely activated discourse surrounding global health, security, transmission, and isolation in service of a fuzzily gestured societal ideal of tolerance and interdependence. Which, yes, lofty, but fine. However in applying this immunological analogy, the question "What function do these cells/cultures have?" becomes "What function do these people/cultures have?".

Invariably these sorts of comparisons end up implying that people like the author have the "function" of doing "progress" and "science" (and "making money"), while minorities have the "function" of being "social" and "extroverted" (and/or "happy", "musical", "soulful" -- as illustrated by the enormous clunker that "every Balinese is connected by a spiritual umbilicus". What??).
posted by dmh at 4:19 AM on April 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

I've tried to read this a few times and I think you are being over generous myself.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 9:58 AM on April 9, 2021

I actually kind of detested this article. It was all over the place with the......whoa whoa, just a minute.



I found the article to rely on weak metaphor and analogy. Make over complicated and simultaneously reductionist claims, place intentionality in places it doesn't exist, and use 4000 words to say something that a more able writer could probably do with 1000. The ideas raised are interesting but he often schloms them over to other questions as if they were some kind of unifying doctrine. Sort of like the way I could say that since pouring oil on a stormy sea calms the waters you should drink this cup of olive oil for your upset stomach.

I don't mean to be crabby.
posted by Pembquist at 11:00 AM on April 9, 2021 [1 favorite]

I found the article to rely on weak metaphor and analogy. Make over complicated and simultaneously reductionist claims, place intentionality in places it doesn't exist, and use 4000 words to say something that a more able writer could probably do with 1000.

I've got no problem with anyone disagreeing with the article or just not liking the style its written in, I'm not even entirely sure of my own level of agreement in that respect, but I personally appreciate the style, or, rather, method the author uses in the layered analogies for the way it consolidates a thematic approach to the ideas discussed by abutment of perspective on the notions of group size, trust, and safety.

Simplifying that would indeed be clearer, but would just be restating things already largely known in whichever of the individual areas the article would then focus on. It's the friction between the various ways of thinking about the issue that provides some added spark for further consideration, at least for me, regardless of whether I accept the end claims or not. But I get that isn't everyone's cup of tea, while it should be obvious enough I guess to anyone who reads my posts that it fits my predilections.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:41 AM on April 9, 2021 [1 favorite]

gusottertrout, I hear you and if someone enjoys this article more power to them. My objections (crankiness,) has a lot to do with my judgement that it was just very weakly written, with the layers of metaphor and analogy not really knitting and seeming a little forced and pedantic. I do find the philosophy of science fascinating and the idea/tension between the conception of evolution as collaboration vs competition and where you set the boundaries of organisms very interesting as are the ideas of the roll viruses play in sharing genetic information. Unfortunately I found how he wrote about his ideas of information sophomoric and the petri dish stuff I just thought was stupid.

For some reason this article hit a nerve so my reaction is most likely just me not it. (still....grrr.)
posted by Pembquist at 1:06 PM on April 9, 2021