Touch and consent
April 10, 2021 7:32 PM Subscribe
I Spent My Life Consenting to Touch I Didn’t Want SLNYT, by Melissa Febos. Content warning: sexual assault. "A year of isolation made me consider all the casual, unwanted touch women endure — and why it’s so hard to refuse it."
I'm not leaving the house again. Neither should anyone else. Eventually we will all starve and that is OK.
posted by poe at 8:09 PM on April 10, 2021 [44 favorites]
posted by poe at 8:09 PM on April 10, 2021 [44 favorites]
And it makes sense of a rape that I didn't call a rape for years because the guy wouldn't stop begging until I gave in. Apparently "no" didn't really mean "no". It wasn't violent, but I didn't want it, he wouldn't wear a condom, I felt like a human fleshlight, and spent most of my pregnancy wondering whether he or my boyfriend was the father of my baby.
He came to visit me later, and I didn't want him there but I didn't know how to get rid of him. Luckily one of my male friends rang when he was there and caught the worry in my voice and came and acted very aggressively so the guy went away.
I have a thousand stories like this, and the only times I didn't get used was when I had a male friend tell the dude "no" for me. Sometimes though, the male friend was the dude.
Even in relationships when a supposed living partner would go overboard in public displays of affection or vulgar use of my body - like grabbing my breasts while I was doing dishes and saying honk, saying "no" wasn't enough. I would have to get angry, and the result was usually sulking or sullenness or the punishment of silence because I was clearly supposed to allow access all areas because we were partners, and until I apologised, the punishment would continue.
I have sometimes remained in relationships so that at least I only have to deal with the unwanted touch of one man instead of many.
I'm too verbose here because recently I drew a family tree on my (male) therapist' s whiteboard showing the intergenerational sexual assaults and he's like "OMG, you are so resilient, this must be so rare, you are amazing for making it through" and then in order for me to "process it", he had me writing it down. I typed 5 pages - which only took me to age 17 - emailed it to him and then slept for 36 hours. He was even more impressed with me and did a Robin Williams line out of Good Will Hunting "it's not your fault". Well, fucking duh! But now, instead of it being tied down in the past, it comes up more and more, I keep remembering new things where ostensibly nice men touched me when I didn't want them to, and I don't want to think about it. Men on buses and trains, men at work, men in social situations, partners, relatives.
And I'm autistic and don't like much touch anyway.
posted by b33j at 8:27 PM on April 10, 2021 [63 favorites]
He came to visit me later, and I didn't want him there but I didn't know how to get rid of him. Luckily one of my male friends rang when he was there and caught the worry in my voice and came and acted very aggressively so the guy went away.
I have a thousand stories like this, and the only times I didn't get used was when I had a male friend tell the dude "no" for me. Sometimes though, the male friend was the dude.
Even in relationships when a supposed living partner would go overboard in public displays of affection or vulgar use of my body - like grabbing my breasts while I was doing dishes and saying honk, saying "no" wasn't enough. I would have to get angry, and the result was usually sulking or sullenness or the punishment of silence because I was clearly supposed to allow access all areas because we were partners, and until I apologised, the punishment would continue.
I have sometimes remained in relationships so that at least I only have to deal with the unwanted touch of one man instead of many.
I'm too verbose here because recently I drew a family tree on my (male) therapist' s whiteboard showing the intergenerational sexual assaults and he's like "OMG, you are so resilient, this must be so rare, you are amazing for making it through" and then in order for me to "process it", he had me writing it down. I typed 5 pages - which only took me to age 17 - emailed it to him and then slept for 36 hours. He was even more impressed with me and did a Robin Williams line out of Good Will Hunting "it's not your fault". Well, fucking duh! But now, instead of it being tied down in the past, it comes up more and more, I keep remembering new things where ostensibly nice men touched me when I didn't want them to, and I don't want to think about it. Men on buses and trains, men at work, men in social situations, partners, relatives.
And I'm autistic and don't like much touch anyway.
posted by b33j at 8:27 PM on April 10, 2021 [63 favorites]
whatever the culture of the cuddle party, the culture inside of me presented its own dictates
Fuuuuuuuuck.
posted by corb at 8:57 PM on April 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Fuuuuuuuuck.
posted by corb at 8:57 PM on April 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
“I was never sexually assaulted” after she describes in detail being sexually assaulted at age 12. Our denial runs deep.
posted by farkleberry at 9:22 PM on April 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by farkleberry at 9:22 PM on April 10, 2021 [24 favorites]
How do high-touch societies handle consent and touch?
posted by aniola at 9:55 PM on April 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by aniola at 9:55 PM on April 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Just FYI, the way the page is formatted makes it a little confusing, but the piece is authored by Melissa Febos.
posted by amanda at 10:02 PM on April 10, 2021
posted by amanda at 10:02 PM on April 10, 2021
The 60-year-old uncle who slapped my ass in jest while giving me a tour of his new house. I froze in shock and processed it later. When I told him how angry I was, the event was so ordinary to him it exceeded the bounds of memory. Now we're estranged and he doesn't know why.
The light touches on my elbows, my waist, the small of my back. In crowds, in passing, alone. As if we're friends! As if I'm stock! As if you can just push me where you want me to go!
The 6'2" stranger who picked me up and threw me over his shoulder at a bar, then acted like I was the crazy one when I kicked and screamed for him to put me down. Jokes!
Just a sampling.. top of my head...
posted by lloquat at 10:12 PM on April 10, 2021 [22 favorites]
The light touches on my elbows, my waist, the small of my back. In crowds, in passing, alone. As if we're friends! As if I'm stock! As if you can just push me where you want me to go!
The 6'2" stranger who picked me up and threw me over his shoulder at a bar, then acted like I was the crazy one when I kicked and screamed for him to put me down. Jokes!
Just a sampling.. top of my head...
posted by lloquat at 10:12 PM on April 10, 2021 [22 favorites]
As if I'm stock! As if you can just push me where you want me to go!
one of the things I hate most in this life is being physically moved by dudes who need me to exist elsewhere in space but don't think they need to fucking communicate about it because I'm an actual human being & not a small Pomeranian dog or some shit
posted by taquito sunrise at 10:48 PM on April 10, 2021 [44 favorites]
one of the things I hate most in this life is being physically moved by dudes who need me to exist elsewhere in space but don't think they need to fucking communicate about it because I'm an actual human being & not a small Pomeranian dog or some shit
posted by taquito sunrise at 10:48 PM on April 10, 2021 [44 favorites]
I’ve never understood how people are so handsy. I do not have an entitlement to your body, yet I’m always seeing guys who think absolutely nothing of patting someone on the back, or grasping someone’s (usually a woman’s) arm, or things like that. Or even worse, a smack on the ass or something extremely violating like that. It’s one thing if you’re with people you know and you understand their boundaries and everyone knows what everyone’s OK with, like giving a friend a hug or something like that. If I don’t know you, and I touch you, it was either accidental or there was a damn good reason for it. For example, stabilizing someone who’s off balance or something like that. (Or like the woman in my hiking group who suddenly got my arm across her chest; not something I would typically do but she was quite grateful that I stopped her from stepping on a coiled up rattlesnake.) I don’t feel comfortable when someone just decides they can touch me. But a lot of people in our society seem to have a problem with boundaries in general.
posted by azpenguin at 10:58 PM on April 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 10:58 PM on April 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
In my life, unwanted touch was so pervasive I just stopped noticing (kind of), and in many ways it's only as I've gotten older and worked on awareness that I discover these things.
This was brought to my attention by a boyfriend in college who causually mentioned that he could grab my brests from behind, and I simply wouldn't notice. And he liked that I'd just not react at all either way.
Which was like oh that's definately a trauma response. It took me a long time not to immediately ingore my physical reactions to sensations from others. To force my brain to notice, to make myself be present enough that I could even recognize what was happening, and then once that fell into place, my own wants. After that start to actually consent or establish my boundries.
I have practiced consent and boundaries the way the article describes and felt many if the same things. Now my work is now on communicating the touch I actually want, instead of the expectations in my head of what intimacy in all forms should be .
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:09 PM on April 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
This was brought to my attention by a boyfriend in college who causually mentioned that he could grab my brests from behind, and I simply wouldn't notice. And he liked that I'd just not react at all either way.
Which was like oh that's definately a trauma response. It took me a long time not to immediately ingore my physical reactions to sensations from others. To force my brain to notice, to make myself be present enough that I could even recognize what was happening, and then once that fell into place, my own wants. After that start to actually consent or establish my boundries.
I have practiced consent and boundaries the way the article describes and felt many if the same things. Now my work is now on communicating the touch I actually want, instead of the expectations in my head of what intimacy in all forms should be .
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:09 PM on April 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
This is a really strange and painful read. I got a feeling that there is some even deeper, underlying trauma than the sexual assault when she was 12. She is obviously right in the assumption that most women experience unwanted touch during their everyday lives. That is just a fact. And I think it takes up more of our emotional space than we like to think. I can also to some extent understand her coping strategies, though they do not seem very healthy. Like her, like her interviewees and like most commenters in this thread, I have sometimes chosen to do things that in retrospect look weird, but then seemed like a way of handling a reality I couldn't change.
But there is something about her reflections that confuse me, or maybe even scare me. Maybe it can be summed up in farkleberry's less verbose comment:
“I was never sexually assaulted” after she describes in detail being sexually assaulted at age 12. Our denial runs deep.
I mean, she probably meant that she was never assaulted at work as a dominatrix. But for an article that is very much about dissociation, there is a lot of it going on in there. Why did she go to the cuddle party? And why did she do it twice?
Something needs to change, and I am so grateful for the whole me too movement. I'm thinking a lot about how I can help younger women. But I suspect the big change has to be in how we teach little girls and boys how to respect their own and others' autonomy. For all the obvious reasons, but also I realized after reading this article how little pleasure life offers those who go through it this was. And that goes both for the victims and the perpetrators.
posted by mumimor at 12:06 AM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
But there is something about her reflections that confuse me, or maybe even scare me. Maybe it can be summed up in farkleberry's less verbose comment:
“I was never sexually assaulted” after she describes in detail being sexually assaulted at age 12. Our denial runs deep.
I mean, she probably meant that she was never assaulted at work as a dominatrix. But for an article that is very much about dissociation, there is a lot of it going on in there. Why did she go to the cuddle party? And why did she do it twice?
Something needs to change, and I am so grateful for the whole me too movement. I'm thinking a lot about how I can help younger women. But I suspect the big change has to be in how we teach little girls and boys how to respect their own and others' autonomy. For all the obvious reasons, but also I realized after reading this article how little pleasure life offers those who go through it this was. And that goes both for the victims and the perpetrators.
posted by mumimor at 12:06 AM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
“I was never sexually assaulted” after she describes in detail being sexually assaulted at age 12. Our denial runs deep.
At the start of the #MeToo era in academia my wife said to me "I guess I'm lucky none of that stuff ever happened to me".
Then I told her of the three times sexual harassment had happened to her that she had casually told me about over the years, not in the context of complaining about harassment, that I could recall just off the top of my head (and I have a pretty terrible memory).
Her eyes went big and she said "Oh".
posted by srboisvert at 3:02 AM on April 11, 2021 [29 favorites]
At the start of the #MeToo era in academia my wife said to me "I guess I'm lucky none of that stuff ever happened to me".
Then I told her of the three times sexual harassment had happened to her that she had casually told me about over the years, not in the context of complaining about harassment, that I could recall just off the top of my head (and I have a pretty terrible memory).
Her eyes went big and she said "Oh".
posted by srboisvert at 3:02 AM on April 11, 2021 [29 favorites]
srboisvert: "I guess I'm lucky none of that stuff ever happened to me".
Yeah, I've heard that a lot.
And on the flipside: I once decided to talk about harassment and assault in a newsgroup, and related some incidents from my past. There was one guy who absolutely could not deal and started stating how absolutely rare that was, and how unlucky I was, and I would certainly be traumatized and shouldn't I be getting some help? It was surely super rare, because his mother and sister had never ever been through anything like that... because they certainly would have told him.
I tried to explain that it's actually not rare at all, but most women are not eager to talk about it, and another reason that he never noticed the rape/assault/harassment culture in which we live was the fact that he was so steeped in it he did not notice it anymore. He wouldn't have any of it. I took it to email but things did not improve.
I had considered him a friendly acquantance until that conversation. We don't talk anymore. I'm done.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:57 AM on April 11, 2021 [26 favorites]
Yeah, I've heard that a lot.
And on the flipside: I once decided to talk about harassment and assault in a newsgroup, and related some incidents from my past. There was one guy who absolutely could not deal and started stating how absolutely rare that was, and how unlucky I was, and I would certainly be traumatized and shouldn't I be getting some help? It was surely super rare, because his mother and sister had never ever been through anything like that... because they certainly would have told him.
I tried to explain that it's actually not rare at all, but most women are not eager to talk about it, and another reason that he never noticed the rape/assault/harassment culture in which we live was the fact that he was so steeped in it he did not notice it anymore. He wouldn't have any of it. I took it to email but things did not improve.
I had considered him a friendly acquantance until that conversation. We don't talk anymore. I'm done.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:57 AM on April 11, 2021 [26 favorites]
I'm thinking a lot about how I can help younger women
One thing I started doing at work was openly naming the repeat offenders. It's a pretty good place to work but there are a couple of men in high positions who do the casual touching thing (and who don't work in my office. I cured the tag pusher downer in my office a few years ago with a few well placed "you old perv" type comments).
Anyway, when I see anyone from this little group is scheduled for an office visit, I'll walk around and not-too-privately tell any woman who has come on board since his last visit that "Jim is a shoulder toucher. If he touches you uninvited you can tell me and I will handle it." We haven't been in the office together in over a year right now but I haven't had a single report since early 2019. The most gratifying thing about it to me, though, is when I catch women scowling at them as they walk past. No free smiles from the young pretties for you anymore, douchebags!
Of the two biggest offenders, one was "resigned"
(unrelated) a few months ago and the other I now work with at least once a week, and our video calls are very funny for me. He knows I hate him, because I have been vocally angry at him multiple times, and he also knows I am too good at my job and valuable now for him to be able to cause me any problems anymore, and he is overly polite to me in that way that waspy racist people are very careful to call back men sir. Didn't expect for the little office girl to glow up and have some actual power, did you?
In conclusion, I'm not leaving the house again. Neither should anyone else.
posted by phunniemee at 4:28 AM on April 11, 2021 [42 favorites]
One thing I started doing at work was openly naming the repeat offenders. It's a pretty good place to work but there are a couple of men in high positions who do the casual touching thing (and who don't work in my office. I cured the tag pusher downer in my office a few years ago with a few well placed "you old perv" type comments).
Anyway, when I see anyone from this little group is scheduled for an office visit, I'll walk around and not-too-privately tell any woman who has come on board since his last visit that "Jim is a shoulder toucher. If he touches you uninvited you can tell me and I will handle it." We haven't been in the office together in over a year right now but I haven't had a single report since early 2019. The most gratifying thing about it to me, though, is when I catch women scowling at them as they walk past. No free smiles from the young pretties for you anymore, douchebags!
Of the two biggest offenders, one was "resigned"
(unrelated) a few months ago and the other I now work with at least once a week, and our video calls are very funny for me. He knows I hate him, because I have been vocally angry at him multiple times, and he also knows I am too good at my job and valuable now for him to be able to cause me any problems anymore, and he is overly polite to me in that way that waspy racist people are very careful to call back men sir. Didn't expect for the little office girl to glow up and have some actual power, did you?
In conclusion, I'm not leaving the house again. Neither should anyone else.
posted by phunniemee at 4:28 AM on April 11, 2021 [42 favorites]
Mod note: Fixed author credit in post; thanks!
posted by taz (staff) at 5:07 AM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:07 AM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Why did she go to the cuddle party? And why did she do it twice?I understand you are asking this in this context of disassociation.
I feel like this question shouldn't have been asked, but I feel like responding so I am.
People who have been assaulted are allowed to like consentual touch. They are allowed to like the idea of consentual safe touch and then decide maybe that plan wasn't a good one. And that doesn't mean that is disassociation. They are allowed to express themselves and try new things and not be questioned about it as if it is a moral high ground or some deep inherent flaw, or that wanting intimacy and touch is some preposterous thing that only makes sense in the context of disassociation. Women are allowed to go to orgies, be sex workers, be into whatever kinks they want to be and that doesn't have to be about trauma. What is here, is that even in a safe, constructed space, she discovered she still couldn't express the boundaries that she wanted, which is a problem that's deeply rooted in trauma. It's also one that is hard to notice until there is a situation like the above. So, the cuddle party was actually probably a gift in some ways, because how much do people ever get to practice consent? And, going back to practice consent in space like that are probably alot better than some of the other options I can think of. But, It clearly wasn't ideal for all the reasons described in the article.
The problem here is that abuse of personal space, sexual assault, rape are pervasive. Responses to that are complicated and interwoven with basic needs regarding attention, desire, body autonomy and consent.
Her actions really don't need to be analyzed all that deeply, her experience mirrors that of many women's experiences with consent. Her realization and words are important ones and do reflect work along the process of coming to terms with traumatic experiences and reflect common struggles that are really hard to talk about.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:12 AM on April 11, 2021 [41 favorites]
Once when I was getting a bike out of one of those bike rental stations, a guy came up behind me and touched my ass. I immediately turned around and screamed at him to get away from me. He looked absolutely terrified -- like he had never gotten that reaction before.
But what sticks out most in my memory is that even though it was a crowded street, and I was screaming at the top of my lungs, not a single person, of any sex, stopped to help.
posted by basalganglia at 5:12 AM on April 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
But what sticks out most in my memory is that even though it was a crowded street, and I was screaming at the top of my lungs, not a single person, of any sex, stopped to help.
posted by basalganglia at 5:12 AM on April 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
How do high-touch societies handle consent and touch?
Not well, as far as I can tell. I have sometimes been the victim of unwanted touch (by both genders, going to an all boys school there were quite a few unwanted encounters that were definitely more than a tad sexual) - but likely I was more often the perpetrator of unwanted touch as I grew older. Due to some of my formative experiences, touch is one of the main ways in which I connect to others, both friends and romantic partners.
Also, it's all relative, which is why it's so dangerous! Coming in from the thread about purity culture, there was a woman who confided to a group of friends who then had a mole relay to me that one of my strengths is that I deployed physical touch really effectively with her. I recall doing nothing of this sort intentionally, but I'm sure something like accidentally brushing against her hand while we both reached out to the change the radio station in the car at the same time must have been an exciting experience...
I'm in agreement with everything in the article.
posted by xdvesper at 5:57 AM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not well, as far as I can tell. I have sometimes been the victim of unwanted touch (by both genders, going to an all boys school there were quite a few unwanted encounters that were definitely more than a tad sexual) - but likely I was more often the perpetrator of unwanted touch as I grew older. Due to some of my formative experiences, touch is one of the main ways in which I connect to others, both friends and romantic partners.
Also, it's all relative, which is why it's so dangerous! Coming in from the thread about purity culture, there was a woman who confided to a group of friends who then had a mole relay to me that one of my strengths is that I deployed physical touch really effectively with her. I recall doing nothing of this sort intentionally, but I'm sure something like accidentally brushing against her hand while we both reached out to the change the radio station in the car at the same time must have been an exciting experience...
I'm in agreement with everything in the article.
posted by xdvesper at 5:57 AM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I liked the article, and thought that her 12-year old experience sounded worse than the way she described it.
How do high-touch societies handle consent and touch?
I'm from a low-touch culture* but have lived in high-touch places (like where you kiss each person in a group as a greeting and then again for saying goodbye, or hand-holding while talking). In my experience (as a man, so not the target of nearly as much unwanted touch), plenty of people use those ambiguous huggy/kissy/touchy situations to push the line, sometimes dramatically, of how much contact they can get away with, despite fairly clear social rules about how you are supposed to air-kiss and platonically hug, say.
* Low-touch in general, but with key exceptions: older men in the office who think surprise shoulder massages are ok; creepy dudes who use hippy- and counter-culture mores as excuses to get touchy, etc.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:50 AM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
How do high-touch societies handle consent and touch?
I'm from a low-touch culture* but have lived in high-touch places (like where you kiss each person in a group as a greeting and then again for saying goodbye, or hand-holding while talking). In my experience (as a man, so not the target of nearly as much unwanted touch), plenty of people use those ambiguous huggy/kissy/touchy situations to push the line, sometimes dramatically, of how much contact they can get away with, despite fairly clear social rules about how you are supposed to air-kiss and platonically hug, say.
* Low-touch in general, but with key exceptions: older men in the office who think surprise shoulder massages are ok; creepy dudes who use hippy- and counter-culture mores as excuses to get touchy, etc.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:50 AM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I feel like this question shouldn't have been asked, but I feel like responding so I am.
I probably didn't make myself clear, and I'm not sure I can. I certainly believe she has the right to do whatever she wants and there is obviously no way her personal choices can excuse any form of unwanted touch.
posted by mumimor at 7:16 AM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
I probably didn't make myself clear, and I'm not sure I can. I certainly believe she has the right to do whatever she wants and there is obviously no way her personal choices can excuse any form of unwanted touch.
posted by mumimor at 7:16 AM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
I believe the author intentionally doesn’t identify her experience at 12 as sexual assault because she consented. Which was the point of the article for me, and I found it brilliant: In any court of law (or public opinion, and putting aside statutory rape where consent doesn’t matter), she consented (and therefore the incident wasn’t “sexual assault”) - but it was *empty* consent (thank you for putting words to this this!) and therefore a whole other (and arguably deeper and thornier) problem.
I love and trust my male therapist, and still I’m planning to end therapy without talking to him about my experiences with men - because I have learned to protect myself by never discussing certain things with men. Even the “good” ones. Even him, who I love. I told him recently that I don’t actually think I have a problem that needs to (or can be) resolved here, it’s more just an existential thing. I joke (and don’t joke) that my main travel rule is just “Don’t talk to men.” An incredible loss (50% of new people!), but I’ve learned it’s not worth the risk (of extra labor, if not violence). I miss out on some things but I gratefully avoid others. So it is.
I remember sooo many instances of unwanted touch, enforced by the culture and my own experience. Times I’ve said nothing, and times I’ve fought back. Public, private, large (attempted rape, one I still have a hard time calling rape), and small: one small one that particularly irks me (and astounds me with its frequency and entitlement - even the most “progressive” men) ... I’m holding something cool, and I say, “Whoa, this is cool!” (or the like), and the guy I’m with just grabs it out of my hand, without comment.
posted by anshuman at 7:26 AM on April 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
I love and trust my male therapist, and still I’m planning to end therapy without talking to him about my experiences with men - because I have learned to protect myself by never discussing certain things with men. Even the “good” ones. Even him, who I love. I told him recently that I don’t actually think I have a problem that needs to (or can be) resolved here, it’s more just an existential thing. I joke (and don’t joke) that my main travel rule is just “Don’t talk to men.” An incredible loss (50% of new people!), but I’ve learned it’s not worth the risk (of extra labor, if not violence). I miss out on some things but I gratefully avoid others. So it is.
I remember sooo many instances of unwanted touch, enforced by the culture and my own experience. Times I’ve said nothing, and times I’ve fought back. Public, private, large (attempted rape, one I still have a hard time calling rape), and small: one small one that particularly irks me (and astounds me with its frequency and entitlement - even the most “progressive” men) ... I’m holding something cool, and I say, “Whoa, this is cool!” (or the like), and the guy I’m with just grabs it out of my hand, without comment.
posted by anshuman at 7:26 AM on April 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
Thanks for posting this.
For me one of the few upsides of the pandemic and successive confinements has been the minimal exposure to sexual harassment. In the last year I have had less than 10 episodes of sexual harassment, whereas before to have more than 10 a week, or 10 in a single day, was not unusual.
I often wonder what it will be like when things open up again. We have all, men and women, become much more wary of other people and personal space has expanded. Many women will have had more than a year with little or no harassment / unwanted touch. How are we going to react when it starts up again? Undoubtedly there will be plenty of men who are ready to get back to harassment as usual. (I still meet them sometimes in the park.)
Like the author of the piece, I hope that we might hit a culture moment where sexual harassment / unwanted touch becomes vastly more socially unacceptable. In addition to the expansion of personal space we have had an ongoing conversation about consent and boundaries. Hopefully the collective impact will make it easier to push back on harassers in all spaces.
posted by roolya_boolya at 7:41 AM on April 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
For me one of the few upsides of the pandemic and successive confinements has been the minimal exposure to sexual harassment. In the last year I have had less than 10 episodes of sexual harassment, whereas before to have more than 10 a week, or 10 in a single day, was not unusual.
I often wonder what it will be like when things open up again. We have all, men and women, become much more wary of other people and personal space has expanded. Many women will have had more than a year with little or no harassment / unwanted touch. How are we going to react when it starts up again? Undoubtedly there will be plenty of men who are ready to get back to harassment as usual. (I still meet them sometimes in the park.)
Like the author of the piece, I hope that we might hit a culture moment where sexual harassment / unwanted touch becomes vastly more socially unacceptable. In addition to the expansion of personal space we have had an ongoing conversation about consent and boundaries. Hopefully the collective impact will make it easier to push back on harassers in all spaces.
posted by roolya_boolya at 7:41 AM on April 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
I do not have an entitlement to your body, yet I’m always seeing guys who think absolutely nothing of patting someone on the back, or grasping someone’s (usually a woman’s) arm, or things like that.
This really gets me too. I remember ONE time, about 5 years ago, a blind person was trying to board the train I had just got off and was facing the wrong direction, and was not going to turn around in time to make it on. Without thinking about it I took her shoulders and "pointed" her toward the train and she said "oh!" and got on and away she went. I have been thinking about that with guilt ever since. I should have asked, used my words, etc, and I didn't. I have practiced what I would say in a similar situation and envisioned what I should have done so I won't do that to someone again. I honestly think about it a lot. And then there are men and other people out here all the time just putting their hands all over and never thinking twice.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:47 AM on April 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
This really gets me too. I remember ONE time, about 5 years ago, a blind person was trying to board the train I had just got off and was facing the wrong direction, and was not going to turn around in time to make it on. Without thinking about it I took her shoulders and "pointed" her toward the train and she said "oh!" and got on and away she went. I have been thinking about that with guilt ever since. I should have asked, used my words, etc, and I didn't. I have practiced what I would say in a similar situation and envisioned what I should have done so I won't do that to someone again. I honestly think about it a lot. And then there are men and other people out here all the time just putting their hands all over and never thinking twice.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:47 AM on April 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
This is a great piece, thank you for posting it. Lots to think about.
I have probably a thousand stories I could add but one that's stuck with me is when I was learning self-defence in Martial Arts. All the self-defence classes at my then-recreational, now-professional academy started with a set introduction about consent, about the importance of watching and listening to your partner, and in general I would say most students were hesitant to touch each other at all.
Even so, I got triggered by being pinned unexpectedly. I actually quit going to class, and when I was called by the lead instructor to see why I wasn't showing up any more I kind of stammered out that I wasn't sure about doing self-defence. I kind of expected a lecture on how to be more aware of myself and say no better.
Instead, he said that he didn't want me to do self-defence at all, and that he was going to restructure the classes - for everyone - to work on alternative movements/patterns that didn't involve student-to-student contact. On the fly (kind of - they had been working on it), he and one of the grand masters developed a series of choices for everyone in the class to do instead of the kind of hand-to-hand work. Then in class, all the students were given the choice of either pairing up, or working on the dummies, etc.
About 30% of the students (all adults, for these classes) opted out of pairing up.
It was kind of a stunning lesson in the difference between individual and collective action.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2021 [39 favorites]
I have probably a thousand stories I could add but one that's stuck with me is when I was learning self-defence in Martial Arts. All the self-defence classes at my then-recreational, now-professional academy started with a set introduction about consent, about the importance of watching and listening to your partner, and in general I would say most students were hesitant to touch each other at all.
Even so, I got triggered by being pinned unexpectedly. I actually quit going to class, and when I was called by the lead instructor to see why I wasn't showing up any more I kind of stammered out that I wasn't sure about doing self-defence. I kind of expected a lecture on how to be more aware of myself and say no better.
Instead, he said that he didn't want me to do self-defence at all, and that he was going to restructure the classes - for everyone - to work on alternative movements/patterns that didn't involve student-to-student contact. On the fly (kind of - they had been working on it), he and one of the grand masters developed a series of choices for everyone in the class to do instead of the kind of hand-to-hand work. Then in class, all the students were given the choice of either pairing up, or working on the dummies, etc.
About 30% of the students (all adults, for these classes) opted out of pairing up.
It was kind of a stunning lesson in the difference between individual and collective action.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2021 [39 favorites]
I also worked as a dominatrix when I was young. 18, actually.
I had some positive sexual experiences up until that point, but also softly coercive ones. Working as a domme was the first time I felt real power over or approaching equal to a man in a sexual context. They were paying customers, they explicitly wanted me to hold power over them, and there was a very strong person in the room next to me that could be called in at any time if there was even a whiff of rule-breaking.
I felt powerful and protected: the exact opposite of many sexual encounters in my private life.
posted by rachaelfaith at 9:07 AM on April 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
I had some positive sexual experiences up until that point, but also softly coercive ones. Working as a domme was the first time I felt real power over or approaching equal to a man in a sexual context. They were paying customers, they explicitly wanted me to hold power over them, and there was a very strong person in the room next to me that could be called in at any time if there was even a whiff of rule-breaking.
I felt powerful and protected: the exact opposite of many sexual encounters in my private life.
posted by rachaelfaith at 9:07 AM on April 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Reading Melissa Febos is hard but always so, so worth it.
The last date I went on (ever) was whenever IT chapter one came out. My date asked if he could put his arm around my shoulders; I said yes, even though I did not mean yes. I was horrified by myself and how unsafe I was being. That internal screaming lasted the entire length of the movie, the arm stayed there because I did not say anything, and then I went home and wondered if I would ever be okay. Or even okay enough to be in a safe, healthy relationship.
A memory from college, a few years before that: I was approached by a drunk guy who wanted hugs from the group of folks I was standing with. They all went along with it, not wanting to make a scene, but I pushed that motherfucker in the chest and told him, loudly, to stay the fuck away from me. Luckily, he was a dopey drunk, and ambled away without protest to violate someone else's boundaries. But what I really remember from that encounter was seeing my friends react to that, male and female. They were stunned, their eyes were enormous. They had never seen anything like it.
That was one of the moments that taught me that representation matters, in a sense more basic than what that phrase usually means. Seeing someone demonstrate or represent courageous behavior, that matters. We don't always know what's possible until we see it.
posted by snerson at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
The last date I went on (ever) was whenever IT chapter one came out. My date asked if he could put his arm around my shoulders; I said yes, even though I did not mean yes. I was horrified by myself and how unsafe I was being. That internal screaming lasted the entire length of the movie, the arm stayed there because I did not say anything, and then I went home and wondered if I would ever be okay. Or even okay enough to be in a safe, healthy relationship.
A memory from college, a few years before that: I was approached by a drunk guy who wanted hugs from the group of folks I was standing with. They all went along with it, not wanting to make a scene, but I pushed that motherfucker in the chest and told him, loudly, to stay the fuck away from me. Luckily, he was a dopey drunk, and ambled away without protest to violate someone else's boundaries. But what I really remember from that encounter was seeing my friends react to that, male and female. They were stunned, their eyes were enormous. They had never seen anything like it.
That was one of the moments that taught me that representation matters, in a sense more basic than what that phrase usually means. Seeing someone demonstrate or represent courageous behavior, that matters. We don't always know what's possible until we see it.
posted by snerson at 9:58 AM on April 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
I've learned to tell the strangers who think they can touch me : " I'm not your (girl)friend, I'm not your relative and I'm not your pet"
Especially infuriating was the red state woman at the Fisherman's wharf Ghirardelli's who came back to order " you have a nice day" after I told her "don't touch me!" when she thought she was entitled to my company and could pat me. My days would be a lot nicer if people like her would keep their fucking hands to themselves.
posted by brujita at 1:03 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Especially infuriating was the red state woman at the Fisherman's wharf Ghirardelli's who came back to order " you have a nice day" after I told her "don't touch me!" when she thought she was entitled to my company and could pat me. My days would be a lot nicer if people like her would keep their fucking hands to themselves.
posted by brujita at 1:03 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Thanks for sharing this – the scenes at the cuddle party feel especially potent, given her clear analysis of some of the forces at play in those settings. Also her putting words to "empty consent" is really giving me stuff to think about. Thanks.
posted by Zephyrial at 1:32 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Zephyrial at 1:32 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think the thing about the cuddle party that was (is) hard for me to understand is, is this some kind of intended ad-hoc therapy/school for consent? I always assumed people went to those (are they real-real?) for non-sexual touching. So, for her to go around saying “no” feels a bit mean. But then why have consent conversations and requirements if ‘no’ is not an option? What meaning does ‘yes’ have without ‘no?’ Is this a way to practice ‘no’ in a hopefully safe setting? But is it a safe place to practice getting rejected? Oy.
posted by amanda at 3:33 PM on April 11, 2021
posted by amanda at 3:33 PM on April 11, 2021
Archived link for anyone who wants/needs it.
posted by jessamyn at 4:11 PM on April 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 4:11 PM on April 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
amanda - yes, a way to practice no in a safe setting. Personally, I think a cuddle party would be a great structure to practice getting rejected in. To refer back to my movie date anecdote above, I wasn't rejecting my date necessarily - I was rejecting the physical touch. The cuddle puddle party takes the strongly implied personal rejection out of the "no" and provides a structured response that allows a clean parting and places a positive emphasis on the rejector's taking care of themselves. So the idea is to foreground and shape some dynamics of touching that are usually unspoken or subtle.
As the author shows, it also depends on what you bring to it. She could show up and say no to everyone, and that would be fine. Saying no every time she checks in with herself to see what she wants is real - if a little confusing a viewer, given the obvious purpose of the event. But if someone were to show up with bad intentions, it would be very hard to hide them in the framework, and they would probably be given the boot pretty quickly.
posted by snerson at 4:15 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
As the author shows, it also depends on what you bring to it. She could show up and say no to everyone, and that would be fine. Saying no every time she checks in with herself to see what she wants is real - if a little confusing a viewer, given the obvious purpose of the event. But if someone were to show up with bad intentions, it would be very hard to hide them in the framework, and they would probably be given the boot pretty quickly.
posted by snerson at 4:15 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am 100% sure I was on the wrong side of this article in my past and was totally oblivious to it. I get it now... but... I am not sure what the appropriate education would have been for me in my youth. How to train my kids to be on the right side of the article.
Adjacently, one of the most important things about martial arts for me (cishet male) was getting me to not panic when touching other people. I started aikido in my mid twenties, but before that, whenever I was touching someone else I was unable to think clearly. It was straight flight or fight or mate cortisol and adrenaline and maybe some oxytocin and dopamine thrown in for extra confusion. I craved it and was terrified of it. The regular martial arts practice had me touching strangers in a controlled environment. It was incredibly helpful for me.
After a couple of years of this, I got up my courage to go to the local tango club and try that out... and I was not good at it. I'm still a pretty terrible tango dancer, but I am much more capable of handling my own emotional and physical state when I am in close physical proximity to other humans. And being hyper conscious of their state of mind and poise? comfort? I don't know. When you dance with someone who isn't into it, it is blindingly obvious. You don't ever want a repeat of that, it's awful.
posted by pol at 4:42 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Adjacently, one of the most important things about martial arts for me (cishet male) was getting me to not panic when touching other people. I started aikido in my mid twenties, but before that, whenever I was touching someone else I was unable to think clearly. It was straight flight or fight or mate cortisol and adrenaline and maybe some oxytocin and dopamine thrown in for extra confusion. I craved it and was terrified of it. The regular martial arts practice had me touching strangers in a controlled environment. It was incredibly helpful for me.
After a couple of years of this, I got up my courage to go to the local tango club and try that out... and I was not good at it. I'm still a pretty terrible tango dancer, but I am much more capable of handling my own emotional and physical state when I am in close physical proximity to other humans. And being hyper conscious of their state of mind and poise? comfort? I don't know. When you dance with someone who isn't into it, it is blindingly obvious. You don't ever want a repeat of that, it's awful.
posted by pol at 4:42 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Thank you, jessamyn, for the much needed link!
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 5:50 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 5:50 PM on April 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Reading this, I kept thinking of the consent model Angela Chen writes about here (originally proposed by Emily Nagoski of Come As You Are.) It was developed with asexuality in mind and that's the focus of the article I linked, but I think the framework it gives for consent that may or may not be enthusiastic is useful in articulating a lot of situations I've been in, both positive and negative.
Basically, the idea is that enthusiastic consent is real and a good thing and a good thing to teach, but in the grand scheme of human experience there are other ways we say yes and other things that yes can mean. Consent can be willing, like an asexual adult who's perfectly capable of giving meaningful consent to sex they might choose to have, without ever wanting sex. (I've heard willing consent used in the context of sex work too but I can't speak from that experience.) Consent can also be unwilling, where you allow something you do not want because it seems better than the alternative. And consent can be coerced, where you say yes because you fear what will happen if you say no. (IMO whether and how to talk about unwilling or coerced consent as consent is a legit conversation, but I think it's useful to recognize a continuum of agency and intent that can exist under "well, did you even say no?")
I might not be giving a great summary, and it goes without saying that not everybody agrees with this model. As I read the Febos piece, "empty consent" is a good term too and would fall somewhere in the last three, usually the last two, but I personally find nuance worth preserving in those distinctions in understanding my own experiences.
posted by jameaterblues at 6:15 PM on April 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
Basically, the idea is that enthusiastic consent is real and a good thing and a good thing to teach, but in the grand scheme of human experience there are other ways we say yes and other things that yes can mean. Consent can be willing, like an asexual adult who's perfectly capable of giving meaningful consent to sex they might choose to have, without ever wanting sex. (I've heard willing consent used in the context of sex work too but I can't speak from that experience.) Consent can also be unwilling, where you allow something you do not want because it seems better than the alternative. And consent can be coerced, where you say yes because you fear what will happen if you say no. (IMO whether and how to talk about unwilling or coerced consent as consent is a legit conversation, but I think it's useful to recognize a continuum of agency and intent that can exist under "well, did you even say no?")
I might not be giving a great summary, and it goes without saying that not everybody agrees with this model. As I read the Febos piece, "empty consent" is a good term too and would fall somewhere in the last three, usually the last two, but I personally find nuance worth preserving in those distinctions in understanding my own experiences.
posted by jameaterblues at 6:15 PM on April 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
@pol One thing I’ve tried to do with my nieces (that are siblings) is when one tells the other to stop touching I reenforce it. “Your sister said stop, and that means you stop.” That is one way we can teach children a norm of consensual touching.
posted by Monday at 12:21 AM on April 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Monday at 12:21 AM on April 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
It occurred to me yesterday that it’s been over a year since someone has grabbed my arm and twisted it to look at my tattoos.
posted by mollymayhem at 5:46 AM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mollymayhem at 5:46 AM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
jameaterblues: YES, omg, Angela Chen is wonderful. I'll take this opportunity to plug her fantastic book Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex. She is readable, concise, and has interesting and useful ideas. A perfect companion to this essay. Thank you jameaterblues for mentioning her and her work!
posted by snerson at 6:27 AM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by snerson at 6:27 AM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
This all hits much too close to home. I find it very difficult to refuse/push back against unwanted touching most of the time. Besides the obvious results, it's led me to form some kinda problematic defensive behaviours like being very standoffish and guarded with people to nonverbally discourage touching. I don't really know why it's so difficult to 'just say no', except I kinda do, part of it is not wanting to make a scene because I hate being the centre of attention, part is being worried that I'm making a big deal over nothing (which is valid, since most people actually wouldn't care), and part is being afraid that saying no will mean they do it anyway, which seems much worse somehow.
I've moved into a culture where women cheek kiss everyone hello and goodbye and it's difficult for me since I feel uncomfortable with so much close contact (especially the subset of old men - of course it's always old men - who full-on cheek smack instead of air kissing) but declining would be very rude and weird, and I'm rude and weird enough already on my own. Anyway I've loved avoiding that whole awkward scenario during the pandemic and I'm not looking forward to getting back to normal in that sense.
posted by randomnity at 7:09 AM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've moved into a culture where women cheek kiss everyone hello and goodbye and it's difficult for me since I feel uncomfortable with so much close contact (especially the subset of old men - of course it's always old men - who full-on cheek smack instead of air kissing) but declining would be very rude and weird, and I'm rude and weird enough already on my own. Anyway I've loved avoiding that whole awkward scenario during the pandemic and I'm not looking forward to getting back to normal in that sense.
posted by randomnity at 7:09 AM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm making a big deal over nothing (which is valid, since most people actually wouldn't care)
I don't think we have any idea what most people think/feel about any of this because it benefits the grabby assholes in charge of the culture to force upon that culture the standard that "most people" are just fine with being surprisegrabbed and poked and rubbed randomly and that the only ones who object are weird/rude/jumpy prudes.
It is overwhelmingly likely that in fact most people care. Since random touch has to be evaluated and since the default is "threat" and since dealing with potential threat to one's person all of the goddamn time wears a person down and makes it hard and exhausting and painful to live in the world. You're NOT making a big deal over nothing. You're making the right size deal over intolerable bullshit that needs to stop. And your fear that they will do it anyway if you say no is grounded in all of our experience and your perception that that would be worse is exactly right. They do do that sometimes, and it is worse. Much worse. A lot worse. Intolerably worse. And it is the fault once again of the grabby assholes in charge, not your fault. Nothing is wrong with your perceptions and nothing whatsoever is rude or wrong about how you're handling what should not be on you to handle. I hate this stuff so much and I love that article and that writer.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:29 AM on April 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don't think we have any idea what most people think/feel about any of this because it benefits the grabby assholes in charge of the culture to force upon that culture the standard that "most people" are just fine with being surprisegrabbed and poked and rubbed randomly and that the only ones who object are weird/rude/jumpy prudes.
It is overwhelmingly likely that in fact most people care. Since random touch has to be evaluated and since the default is "threat" and since dealing with potential threat to one's person all of the goddamn time wears a person down and makes it hard and exhausting and painful to live in the world. You're NOT making a big deal over nothing. You're making the right size deal over intolerable bullshit that needs to stop. And your fear that they will do it anyway if you say no is grounded in all of our experience and your perception that that would be worse is exactly right. They do do that sometimes, and it is worse. Much worse. A lot worse. Intolerably worse. And it is the fault once again of the grabby assholes in charge, not your fault. Nothing is wrong with your perceptions and nothing whatsoever is rude or wrong about how you're handling what should not be on you to handle. I hate this stuff so much and I love that article and that writer.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:29 AM on April 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don't really know why it's so difficult to 'just say no'
I'll add in - in the last summer of the Before Times I overhead a mum talking to her friend about protecting her young, around 5, daughter from "creeps and pervs." She was pretty clear that she was teaching her daughter to stick up for herself.
Then it was time to go. And...the mum made the daughter hug her friend goodbye, even though her daughter was clearly not into it.
We all have tendencies to do this but man that was stark.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:08 AM on April 12, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'll add in - in the last summer of the Before Times I overhead a mum talking to her friend about protecting her young, around 5, daughter from "creeps and pervs." She was pretty clear that she was teaching her daughter to stick up for herself.
Then it was time to go. And...the mum made the daughter hug her friend goodbye, even though her daughter was clearly not into it.
We all have tendencies to do this but man that was stark.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:08 AM on April 12, 2021 [12 favorites]
Like many of the above commenters, this hit me EXTREMELY close to home, up to and including my most recent romantic relationship. I'd avoided Febos' essay collection because I only have so many hours a month to cry my eyes out before it starts impacting my productivity, but I will definitely put it in the queue now. It is especially validating to hear someone else articulate the "just say yes" rape-avoidance strategy, which has always been mine as well. Giving empty or coerced consent, particularly in a culture where you are supposed to believe that sex is morally neutral, always seemed like the best way to hold on to the most of what little power I felt like I had with cis-male partners. I may have had a lot of less-than-ideal and even outright bad sex that in retrospect, I would prefer not to have had, but by God, at least I wasn't raped! To this day (I am about to be 42), I don't feel comfortable saying no to a sexual request unless the person making it gives explicit reassurance alongside every single request that "saying no is okay," or unless I know that if the other person ignores my no, I can literally kill them with my bare hands. Because (the reasoning goes) having my bodily autonomy explicitly destroyed by someone I voluntarily let into my house would be more destructive to my psyche than any amount of bad-sex-that-others-might-describe-as-rape.
tl,dr; currently looking for Chicago-area krav maga or martial arts instructors who will help me prepare for the hetero dating scene.
posted by All hands bury the dead at 10:00 AM on April 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
tl,dr; currently looking for Chicago-area krav maga or martial arts instructors who will help me prepare for the hetero dating scene.
posted by All hands bury the dead at 10:00 AM on April 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
Ugh, yes. I definitely have stopped dating at times. There were times when i had feelings that it's structurally impossible for many women to consent.
I think you can generally tell when people say "yes" and don't mean it. But most people, I think, aren't interested in interrogating that, and don't try. After all, it is rude to second guess what is coming out of someone's mouth, ruder still to continue to ask questions
When I was 12, the boys definitely were surprised at how compliant girls could be. Misogynist conclusions were then often reached. I did find it very confusing, but it also inspired some boys to push the envelope, which was not confusing at all, only nauseating, even at 12.
posted by eustatic at 11:54 AM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think you can generally tell when people say "yes" and don't mean it. But most people, I think, aren't interested in interrogating that, and don't try. After all, it is rude to second guess what is coming out of someone's mouth, ruder still to continue to ask questions
When I was 12, the boys definitely were surprised at how compliant girls could be. Misogynist conclusions were then often reached. I did find it very confusing, but it also inspired some boys to push the envelope, which was not confusing at all, only nauseating, even at 12.
posted by eustatic at 11:54 AM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
While this article is written in the context of men touching the author, and it's so often men that feel entitled to other people's bodies, white people in general regularly touch Black people in unwanted unwelcome ways, especially Black femme folks. They touch arms, shoulders, backs, hair, I mean fuck they occasionally try to reach under and past the plexiglass partition at my partner's retail job during the pandemic.
White cis women so often can't understand why their touch is unwelcome to my partner. They don't use their voice to get her attention, they use their hands. My experience is that White people regularly feel entitled to Black bodies. I think that pattern likely repeats whenever there are marginalized vulnerable less celebrated people.
I just wish more people acted like, if they touch people in an unwanted unnecessary way, they might get their ass kicked, or maybe even be temporarily unable to use their arm from the shoulder down, both of which happened to my great satisfaction when two white men touched a Black woman in a recent episode of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
If they thought of every instance of touch as a risk to themselves and their body's integrity, they might think twice.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 12:26 PM on April 12, 2021 [12 favorites]
White cis women so often can't understand why their touch is unwelcome to my partner. They don't use their voice to get her attention, they use their hands. My experience is that White people regularly feel entitled to Black bodies. I think that pattern likely repeats whenever there are marginalized vulnerable less celebrated people.
I just wish more people acted like, if they touch people in an unwanted unnecessary way, they might get their ass kicked, or maybe even be temporarily unable to use their arm from the shoulder down, both of which happened to my great satisfaction when two white men touched a Black woman in a recent episode of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
If they thought of every instance of touch as a risk to themselves and their body's integrity, they might think twice.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 12:26 PM on April 12, 2021 [12 favorites]
All hands bury the dead: tl,dr; currently looking for Chicago-area krav maga or martial arts instructors who will help me prepare for the hetero dating scene.Suggest you check out IMPACT Chicago. I know a number of women who've done Bay Area Model Mugging (back in the '90s/early naughts) and got immense value from it, and that looks like the closest thing to in the Chicago area.
And I've done a number of workshops that are "cuddle party" adjacent, and based on what I got out of some of those I would totally be game for a workshop where we get together and just practice saying and hearing "no" in different tones and different contexts. As I get more aware of being male and how much I've navigated through some situations just because culturally women are likely to defer to me, I'm more and more conscious that in order to really trust a "yes" I need to trust that that person feels safe telling me "no".
posted by straw at 12:38 PM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
recent episode of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
Yes! That was a very good part of the episode.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:46 PM on April 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yes! That was a very good part of the episode.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:46 PM on April 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think people too often devalue those people they hold privilege over and see their bodies as something they are entitled to, a commodity.
When they touch without asking, or when they ask assuming an answer, it's with an implicit threat, of violence, of subjugation, even if they don't see it. But I also think there's often an implication of knowing better, of holding someone back from doing the wrong thing, or of turning them in the right direction. I see that when people want to do things at the computer for someone else, instead of showing them how.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 1:24 PM on April 12, 2021
When they touch without asking, or when they ask assuming an answer, it's with an implicit threat, of violence, of subjugation, even if they don't see it. But I also think there's often an implication of knowing better, of holding someone back from doing the wrong thing, or of turning them in the right direction. I see that when people want to do things at the computer for someone else, instead of showing them how.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 1:24 PM on April 12, 2021
I tried to explain that it's actually not rare at all, but most women are not eager to talk about it, and another reason that he never noticed the rape/assault/harassment culture in which we live was the fact that he was so steeped in it he did not notice it anymore.The third reason is that the most prolific predators get pretty good at not going full creep in front of other men unless they know for sure those other men won’t call them on it. In fact they get so good at reading the room when it comes to other guys that it totally undermines their credibility when they start talking about being confused by “mixed messages” from women.
I’ve had a very few ex-acquaintances over the years who were outed as one kind of creep or another, and in every case it didn’t surprise me in the least, and I felt bad about not catching on sooner, but on the other hand the evidence I had that made it unsurprising was consistently in the form of other gratuitously crass/edgy behaviors that didn’t individually cross the line into actively hurting somebody. Like, it’s always, “given what I know about this person, it doesn’t surprise me a bit that he also behaves in ways ranging from inappropriate to assaultive towards women, but I’ve never been witness to that specifically.”
posted by gelfin at 10:50 AM on April 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
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I remember a xmas when I was 17 where my crazy mother invited a dirty old man neighbour over for a drink (in the spirit of xmas, you understand, she didn't have a habit of chatting with him) and when he was about to leave, he demanded a hug but only from me - it was horrible. I asked my mother why she didn't stop it and she said " I thought you wanted to."
It still gives me the creeps. No, that's not the right word. I have been so socialised into accepting unwanted touch - I still feel horrified and violated and dirty and used.
posted by b33j at 8:05 PM on April 10, 2021 [59 favorites]