The Untold Story of The Iroquois Influence On Early Feminists
April 11, 2021 3:00 PM Subscribe
"I had been haunted by a question to the past, a mystery of feminist history: How did the radical suffragists come to their vision, a vision not of Band-Aid reform but of a reconstituted world completely transformed?"
For 20 years I had immersed myself in the writings of early United States women's rights activists -- Matilda Joslyn Gage (1826-1898), Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902), Lucretia Mott (1793-1880) -- yet I could not fathom how they dared to dream their revolutionary dream. Living under the ideological hegemony of nineteenth-century United States, they had no say in government, religion, economics, or social life ("the four-fold oppression" of their lives, Gage and Stanton called it.) Whatever made them think that human harmony -- based on the perfect equality of all people, with women absolute sovereigns of their lives -- was an achievable goal?
Surely these white women, living under conditions of virtual slavery, did not get their vision in a vacuum. Somehow they were able to see from point A, where they stood -- corseted, ornamental, legally nonpersons -- to point C, the "regenerated" world Gage predicted, in which all repressive institutions would be destroyed. What was point B in their lives, the earthly alternative that drove their feminist spirit -- not a utopian pipe dream but a sensible, do-able paradigm?
Then I realized I had been skimming over the source of their inspiration without noticing it. My own unconscious white supremacy had kept me from recognizing what these prototypical feminists kept insisting in their writings: They caught a glimpse of the possibility of freedom because they knew women who lived liberated lives, women who had always possessed rights beyond their wildest imagination -- Iroquois women.
While the native example should definitely be celebrated, the fight for women's rights at that time was not unique to North America. w/r/t voting in particular...
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:46 PM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
[In Britain] before and after the 1832 Reform Act there were some who advocated that women should have the right to vote in parliamentary elections. After the enactment of the Reform Act, the MP Henry Hunt argued that any woman who was single, a taxpayer and had sufficient property should be allowed to vote.The 1832 act is significant because it specified "male persons," thus expressly disqualifying women. The article goes on to say: Women's rights were becoming increasingly prominent in the 1850s as some women in higher social spheres refused to obey the gender roles dictated to them.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:46 PM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Similarly, in France: In February 1848, the provisional government recognized three rights essential to the new democratic and social republic: universal suffrage, education, and employment. Parisian women immediately demanded the inclusion of women in the democratic and social restructuring of the state.
They were not successful at that point, but the correspondence in time is noteworthy.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:52 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
They were not successful at that point, but the correspondence in time is noteworthy.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:52 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Wow, thank you for this very interesting article. I have learned something new today.
posted by rpfields at 4:15 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by rpfields at 4:15 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
CheeseDigestsAll: While the native example should definitely be celebrated, the fight for women's rights at that time was not unique to North America.
I might do a post in a week or so about the earlier shock (around 1700) to Europe itself provided by contact and conversation with the Iroquois, so I do know that these influences weren't limited to North America, but I'm not sure if feminist influence from Indigenous cultures came through at that early date along with the liberty-and-democracy influence.
Thinking about the author's question, it occurs to me that in all of the civilizations over all the thousands of years that are said to have contributed to Western Civilization, not one of them had anything close to equal rights for women. Not one of them.
The closest was at the very dawn of Sumerian civilization, when women are mentioned in the records as doctors and lawyers and other professionals. That faded within a few centuries, though, and it hasn't been made part of the story of Western Civilization. Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Jewish, Greek, Roman, Medieval Europe, the Renaissance, the Reformation... there were occasional exceptional women, and occasional arguments for equality, but the societies themselves were relentlessly patriarchal. Relentlessly. I know this isn't news to most people, but it never really struck me until I read this author asking how these women could be so confident that an egalitarian system was a doable, pragmatic possibility. There's just nothing in the Western tradition suggesting it might be.
posted by clawsoon at 4:17 PM on April 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
I might do a post in a week or so about the earlier shock (around 1700) to Europe itself provided by contact and conversation with the Iroquois, so I do know that these influences weren't limited to North America, but I'm not sure if feminist influence from Indigenous cultures came through at that early date along with the liberty-and-democracy influence.
Thinking about the author's question, it occurs to me that in all of the civilizations over all the thousands of years that are said to have contributed to Western Civilization, not one of them had anything close to equal rights for women. Not one of them.
The closest was at the very dawn of Sumerian civilization, when women are mentioned in the records as doctors and lawyers and other professionals. That faded within a few centuries, though, and it hasn't been made part of the story of Western Civilization. Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Jewish, Greek, Roman, Medieval Europe, the Renaissance, the Reformation... there were occasional exceptional women, and occasional arguments for equality, but the societies themselves were relentlessly patriarchal. Relentlessly. I know this isn't news to most people, but it never really struck me until I read this author asking how these women could be so confident that an egalitarian system was a doable, pragmatic possibility. There's just nothing in the Western tradition suggesting it might be.
posted by clawsoon at 4:17 PM on April 11, 2021 [20 favorites]
...which I have to say I feel dumb for realizing so late, lol.
posted by clawsoon at 4:34 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 4:34 PM on April 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
For years this committee of Quakers befriended the Seneca, setting up a school and model farm at Cattaraugus ... In the summer of 1848 Mott spent a month a Cattaraugus
I'm no expert, but I suspect there's a story here connected with the Old Way of Handsome Lake, which was influenced by the Quakers decades earlier and maybe well-known to the committee. One of my favorite ethnographies is Anthony F.C. Wallace's The Death and Rebirth of the Seneca which begins with a quick account of religious practices at Cold Spring Longhouse in the 1950s and then jumps back in time to cover relevant historical/cultural details from the early ~1700s through 1850. Women's roles are discussed occasionally throughout and tend to resonate with the article. The comment above about women outside of North America is worth considering too, though one figure who comes to mind as influential in Sweden's relatively early but partial reforms in the 1860s had previously gone on a well-known tour of the US where she heard Mott speak at a Quaker meeting (p. 117). So, sure, it was an international conversation, but it seems reasonable to see the Seneca Nation and others as part of it.
posted by Wobbuffet at 5:21 PM on April 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm no expert, but I suspect there's a story here connected with the Old Way of Handsome Lake, which was influenced by the Quakers decades earlier and maybe well-known to the committee. One of my favorite ethnographies is Anthony F.C. Wallace's The Death and Rebirth of the Seneca which begins with a quick account of religious practices at Cold Spring Longhouse in the 1950s and then jumps back in time to cover relevant historical/cultural details from the early ~1700s through 1850. Women's roles are discussed occasionally throughout and tend to resonate with the article. The comment above about women outside of North America is worth considering too, though one figure who comes to mind as influential in Sweden's relatively early but partial reforms in the 1860s had previously gone on a well-known tour of the US where she heard Mott speak at a Quaker meeting (p. 117). So, sure, it was an international conversation, but it seems reasonable to see the Seneca Nation and others as part of it.
posted by Wobbuffet at 5:21 PM on April 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
As a feminist historian, I did not at first pay attention to such references to American Indian life because I believed what I had been taught... I did not know what I was looking for, so of course I could not see it.I had this reaction over and over, reading the article. I already knew a lot of the facts I was reading - I live where they happened! - but I had never put the puzzle together and seen the picture.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:25 PM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Thinking about the author's question, it occurs to me that in all of the civilizations over all the thousands of years that are said to have contributed to Western Civilization, not one of them had anything close to equal rights for women. Not one of them.
I won't be able to read the article until later in the week, or provide links for the following, but I think archeology is finding that things may have been very different, and that our perception of ancient history may be colored by Greco-Roman and Christian norms.
An example: I was always told, in the manner of folkloric history, that "the Viking women carried the keys", meaning they were in charge of the business, while the men were out doing Viking. And now I think it has been discovered (through DNA samples) that women could be warriors, too.
All literature we have about the Vikings was written/transcribed after Christianity became the main religion, so there can well have been some sort of sort of ideological or even unconscious editing going on.
There is more, from other civilisations, but I have to run now...
posted by mumimor at 12:47 AM on April 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
I won't be able to read the article until later in the week, or provide links for the following, but I think archeology is finding that things may have been very different, and that our perception of ancient history may be colored by Greco-Roman and Christian norms.
An example: I was always told, in the manner of folkloric history, that "the Viking women carried the keys", meaning they were in charge of the business, while the men were out doing Viking. And now I think it has been discovered (through DNA samples) that women could be warriors, too.
All literature we have about the Vikings was written/transcribed after Christianity became the main religion, so there can well have been some sort of sort of ideological or even unconscious editing going on.
There is more, from other civilisations, but I have to run now...
posted by mumimor at 12:47 AM on April 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
Thanks for posting - very interesting!
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:57 AM on April 12, 2021
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:57 AM on April 12, 2021
Just a side note on this sentence in the article - "Meanwhile she knew hardy, nearby Onondaga women who farmed corn, beans, and squash -- nutritionally balanced and ecologically near-perfect crops called the Three Sisters by the Haudenosaunee (traditional Iroquois)."
For people who want to know more about that, The Three Sisters was described in great detail in Robin Wall Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass", a book that I wish I'd encountered earlier in life.
posted by of strange foe at 7:32 AM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
For people who want to know more about that, The Three Sisters was described in great detail in Robin Wall Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass", a book that I wish I'd encountered earlier in life.
posted by of strange foe at 7:32 AM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
in all of the civilizations over all the thousands of years that are said to have contributed to Western Civilization, not one of them had anything close to equal rights for women. Not one of them
Early medieval Germanic culture is often the forgotten contributor to Western Civilization. Among the Anglo-Saxons, women could (and did) own property, had rights to divorce, and many other things they didn't have in Roman culture (sorry for the vagueness - I'm remembering dinner-time lectures by a roommate doing a PhD in Anglo-Saxon studies, I wasn't taking notes). They weren't equal in the modern sense (or the Haudenosaunee sense), but exercised considerable independence. You can see a similar situation in the Icelandic sagas as well. This lasted into the Christian era - double monasteries (monks and nuns living separate, but parallel and equal lives, sharing libraries, etc.) headed by abbesses were common in north-western Europe before reforms from Rome in the 1000s. (They were also an Irish tradition - I don't know much about women in Irish/Gaelic society at the time, but abbesses were very significant in their church as well).
Christianity itself has subversive heritage that people often forget: because it stressed the equality of all souls (unlike many traditional pagan religions), early Christianity attracted many women (as well as slaves, servants and other subaltern people) and even offered leadership to them. Obviously, Paul didn't like this - and as Christianity became controlled by the powerful, women were pushed out. But they came back, especially in dissenting Christianity: some of the most significant "Brethren of the Free Spirit" were actually sisters. This very article notes that several of the suffragists in question were Quakers, aka members of the Society of Friends, a dissenting and somewhat anti-authoritarian sect noted for its women preachers and leaders since the 1650s. It did not have formal gender equality, but still offered a more equal status to women than most other Christian sects at the time.
None of this is to discount the contribution of the Haudenosaunee example: it's fascinating that many of the early American suffragists were from upstate New York, and this line of questioning should be explored more. (Also, what did Haudenosaunee women think of European traditions?)
But the author really doesn't understand how the history of women in European culture is more complicated than just reading some Classic patriarchal texts would have you believe (I'm looking at you, Aristotle). Even what we study of Classical tradition is biased - we don't talk about much about the women of Sparta in schools as we do about the men of Athens.
One thing that is important to think about when talking about social status is that it's shaped by both cultural ideas (e.g. religions, traditions), but also by economic and social forces (like who makes money, how are households structured). The high status of women in Haudenosaunee culture was tied to the fact that they have always been a matrilineal (as well as matrilocal) culture, in which clan lines pass through mothers, and also women hold authority over land and agriculture. Women in matrilineal societies often have much higher status than those with other traditions, especially patrilineal societies. North-western European culture was patrilineal (but less so than some Asian cultures) and was neither matrilocal nor patrilocal - unlike southern and eastern Europe, or Asia; it's been neolocal since at least the middle ages, and that had an effect on the status of women within the household and society more generally.
posted by jb at 9:15 AM on April 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
Early medieval Germanic culture is often the forgotten contributor to Western Civilization. Among the Anglo-Saxons, women could (and did) own property, had rights to divorce, and many other things they didn't have in Roman culture (sorry for the vagueness - I'm remembering dinner-time lectures by a roommate doing a PhD in Anglo-Saxon studies, I wasn't taking notes). They weren't equal in the modern sense (or the Haudenosaunee sense), but exercised considerable independence. You can see a similar situation in the Icelandic sagas as well. This lasted into the Christian era - double monasteries (monks and nuns living separate, but parallel and equal lives, sharing libraries, etc.) headed by abbesses were common in north-western Europe before reforms from Rome in the 1000s. (They were also an Irish tradition - I don't know much about women in Irish/Gaelic society at the time, but abbesses were very significant in their church as well).
Christianity itself has subversive heritage that people often forget: because it stressed the equality of all souls (unlike many traditional pagan religions), early Christianity attracted many women (as well as slaves, servants and other subaltern people) and even offered leadership to them. Obviously, Paul didn't like this - and as Christianity became controlled by the powerful, women were pushed out. But they came back, especially in dissenting Christianity: some of the most significant "Brethren of the Free Spirit" were actually sisters. This very article notes that several of the suffragists in question were Quakers, aka members of the Society of Friends, a dissenting and somewhat anti-authoritarian sect noted for its women preachers and leaders since the 1650s. It did not have formal gender equality, but still offered a more equal status to women than most other Christian sects at the time.
None of this is to discount the contribution of the Haudenosaunee example: it's fascinating that many of the early American suffragists were from upstate New York, and this line of questioning should be explored more. (Also, what did Haudenosaunee women think of European traditions?)
But the author really doesn't understand how the history of women in European culture is more complicated than just reading some Classic patriarchal texts would have you believe (I'm looking at you, Aristotle). Even what we study of Classical tradition is biased - we don't talk about much about the women of Sparta in schools as we do about the men of Athens.
One thing that is important to think about when talking about social status is that it's shaped by both cultural ideas (e.g. religions, traditions), but also by economic and social forces (like who makes money, how are households structured). The high status of women in Haudenosaunee culture was tied to the fact that they have always been a matrilineal (as well as matrilocal) culture, in which clan lines pass through mothers, and also women hold authority over land and agriculture. Women in matrilineal societies often have much higher status than those with other traditions, especially patrilineal societies. North-western European culture was patrilineal (but less so than some Asian cultures) and was neither matrilocal nor patrilocal - unlike southern and eastern Europe, or Asia; it's been neolocal since at least the middle ages, and that had an effect on the status of women within the household and society more generally.
posted by jb at 9:15 AM on April 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
Also: anyone who has read European court records and seen the obstreperousness of propertied women in lawsuits would never describe white women as living under "conditions of virtual slavery" (so insulting to actual slaves, men or women) - or even as "corseted, ornamental, legally nonpersons". They knew their rights and while they may not have been equal with men, they were also propertied and were going to defend themselves. Their stays held them upright, not tied down (and their massive pockets could conceal whole loaves of bread (or scissors, sewing, money, etc.).
In fact, there is a whole tradition within suffragism arguing that propertied women were better than unpropertied men (because they were propertied), and therefore should have the vote before labouring men. Money could trump gender.
posted by jb at 9:24 AM on April 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
In fact, there is a whole tradition within suffragism arguing that propertied women were better than unpropertied men (because they were propertied), and therefore should have the vote before labouring men. Money could trump gender.
posted by jb at 9:24 AM on April 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
In Ireland before Christianity, women had considerable rights. Property rights, the right to divorce and if the woman had more property, she was the more important partner. This is a big part of the plot of the national epic of Ireland, ‘The Cattle Raid Of Cooley’.
If a woman’s marriage partner was not from Ireland, he had no rights over any children. Such children were called ‘Children Of The Grey Wolf’.
The many rights Irish women had in pagan times lasted well into the Christian Era.
At least a few noted Suffragettes were also noted Irish Nationalists. I doubt this had much impact in the United States Of America since Irish -American people did not hold a good social status until after President Kennedy was elected.
The Irish influence on feminism may ironically have been stronger in England.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:26 PM on April 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
If a woman’s marriage partner was not from Ireland, he had no rights over any children. Such children were called ‘Children Of The Grey Wolf’.
The many rights Irish women had in pagan times lasted well into the Christian Era.
At least a few noted Suffragettes were also noted Irish Nationalists. I doubt this had much impact in the United States Of America since Irish -American people did not hold a good social status until after President Kennedy was elected.
The Irish influence on feminism may ironically have been stronger in England.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 11:26 PM on April 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was studying the local history of my parish during winter and came across this true story, explaining the name of a big sand dune. 1713 - 1751, the local pastor was a nice man, but not of much use on the farm that went with his job. So his wife took over. She went to Copenhagen several times to negotiate with the king about the taxes to be paid by the parish, a trip of many days, even weeks, depending on the weather.
She kept oxen for farmwork and for trade, and was known and called on in the parish for her veterinary competences.
She also tended to some of her husband's pastoral duties, driving around in a wagon with well kept oxen in front.
She was definitely a formidable woman, since she is remembered so long after, but it doesn't seem anyone questioned her authority, neither the king or among the people of the parish.
posted by mumimor at 3:53 AM on April 16, 2021
She kept oxen for farmwork and for trade, and was known and called on in the parish for her veterinary competences.
She also tended to some of her husband's pastoral duties, driving around in a wagon with well kept oxen in front.
She was definitely a formidable woman, since she is remembered so long after, but it doesn't seem anyone questioned her authority, neither the king or among the people of the parish.
posted by mumimor at 3:53 AM on April 16, 2021
All of these anecdotes about empowered European women are super interesting, but they seem a little whataboutish in a discussion of an article about Indigenous women's influence on early American feminists.
FWIW, Google Scholar shows 35 citations in the 25 years since this essay was written, but from a quick dip I don't see much that challenges Wagner's thesis.
I am curious if there are other points at which 19th-century (non-Indigenous) feminist thought drew on Indigenous women's experiences, or if there was something unique about the Haudenosaunee/Seneca Falls crossover.
posted by Not A Thing at 11:36 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
FWIW, Google Scholar shows 35 citations in the 25 years since this essay was written, but from a quick dip I don't see much that challenges Wagner's thesis.
I am curious if there are other points at which 19th-century (non-Indigenous) feminist thought drew on Indigenous women's experiences, or if there was something unique about the Haudenosaunee/Seneca Falls crossover.
posted by Not A Thing at 11:36 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not A Thing, "these anecdotes" are from the countries all white Americans emigrated from.
I'm not suggesting that the suffragettes weren't also inspired by the original people of the US, but it seems counterintuitive that they should know nothing of their own cultural history. I've been looking for an immigrant history source I saw some years ago, where it was documented that a large number of immigrants were single women. If these independent, freedom-seeking women encountered slave-like conditions, which I strongly doubt, they and their daughters and granddaughters seem unlikely to have needed outside influence to protest.
posted by mumimor at 12:17 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm not suggesting that the suffragettes weren't also inspired by the original people of the US, but it seems counterintuitive that they should know nothing of their own cultural history. I've been looking for an immigrant history source I saw some years ago, where it was documented that a large number of immigrants were single women. If these independent, freedom-seeking women encountered slave-like conditions, which I strongly doubt, they and their daughters and granddaughters seem unlikely to have needed outside influence to protest.
posted by mumimor at 12:17 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I suspect that if I had lived next to a working anarchist community and made friends with them, I'd think to myself, "Huh, maybe anarchism really is possible." As it is, my thinking is usually along the lines of, "Sounds nice, but I doubt it would work in practise." Maybe things similar to anarchism were part of my faraway European heritage (maybe my Anabaptist heritage specifically?), but it doesn't seem like it could be a real thing now.
From what the article says about early American feminists, that seems to be the kind of impact their Iroquois friendships had on them. They saw it working. They saw men who didn't respect women kept out of positions of power.
We still have something to learn from the Iroquois in that respect, don't we? "There goes Congress," as the author puts it.
posted by clawsoon at 5:47 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
From what the article says about early American feminists, that seems to be the kind of impact their Iroquois friendships had on them. They saw it working. They saw men who didn't respect women kept out of positions of power.
We still have something to learn from the Iroquois in that respect, don't we? "There goes Congress," as the author puts it.
posted by clawsoon at 5:47 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
The author said that she studied these feminists for 20 years and couldn't figure out where they got their inspiration from because of her own white supremacy. If these feminists had been bringing up all the European examples that you folks have been mentioning, don't you think the author would've noticed?
She said it was a mystery to her until her white supremacy blinders fell off. The European examples that y'all are mentioning would've gotten through the white supremacy blinders. There would've been no mystery. It would've been, "I've been studying these early American feminists for 20 years, and it has always been clear that they got their inspiration from all of these European examples."
posted by clawsoon at 5:59 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
She said it was a mystery to her until her white supremacy blinders fell off. The European examples that y'all are mentioning would've gotten through the white supremacy blinders. There would've been no mystery. It would've been, "I've been studying these early American feminists for 20 years, and it has always been clear that they got their inspiration from all of these European examples."
posted by clawsoon at 5:59 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Given her poor understanding of pre-modern European women's history, I'm not sure the author would recognize references if she saw them. She writes that she has no idea where these 19th century Americans could have gotten ideas of women's empowerment - but they all read in the language of the country that had produced Mary Astell and Mary Wollstonecraft. She has no idea where they might have gotten ideas that women could be equal - well, it's all there in Wollstonecraft. Early modern writers didn't use footnotes - they would make references that you would just be expected to know. But that means you do have to know a lot of the background history to recognize these connections.
She says: "Surely these white women, living under conditions of virtual slavery, did not get their vision in a vacuum" - well, we're explaining that it wasn't a vacuum (and also, how very wrong it is to compare the condition of free white women to slaves).
The shame is that her complete misunderstanding of European history did distract from the rest of the article, which on re-read has more good points than I had seen the first time. It was like reading a relatively good article on ecology that started off with an explanation of why physicists are wrong about entropy - or, indeed, the famous opening of Hardin's "Tragedy of the Commons" article, which complete misunderstood how commons functioned (and did a huge disservice to many indigenous communities that relied on common lands), while making some great points about the bad impacts of unregulated fishing and pollution.
What would have been an interesting article is if she had looked at the thought and connected the unique contributions that Iroquois society made to the way that American feminists thought - how did Iroquoian thought differ? But that would mean knowing the European sources and taking the whole context seriously - and not stereotyping the history and exaggerating the oppression of Euro-American women (which was way, way, WAY less than the oppression offered to slaves).
posted by jb at 10:08 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
She says: "Surely these white women, living under conditions of virtual slavery, did not get their vision in a vacuum" - well, we're explaining that it wasn't a vacuum (and also, how very wrong it is to compare the condition of free white women to slaves).
The shame is that her complete misunderstanding of European history did distract from the rest of the article, which on re-read has more good points than I had seen the first time. It was like reading a relatively good article on ecology that started off with an explanation of why physicists are wrong about entropy - or, indeed, the famous opening of Hardin's "Tragedy of the Commons" article, which complete misunderstood how commons functioned (and did a huge disservice to many indigenous communities that relied on common lands), while making some great points about the bad impacts of unregulated fishing and pollution.
What would have been an interesting article is if she had looked at the thought and connected the unique contributions that Iroquois society made to the way that American feminists thought - how did Iroquoian thought differ? But that would mean knowing the European sources and taking the whole context seriously - and not stereotyping the history and exaggerating the oppression of Euro-American women (which was way, way, WAY less than the oppression offered to slaves).
posted by jb at 10:08 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
I keep coming back to that off-hand slavery remark, because she says she wants to take off her white-supremacy blinders -
About two years after she wrote this essay, I was in my first year of university and I was assigned to read Crowns of Glory, Tears of Blood, about the Demerara slave rebellion of 1823. The description of the torture and abuse of enslaved Africans was both unflinching and harrowing. More than twenty years later, I remember the feeling of that book - and what horrors white supremacy and colonialism wrought.
We absolutely should be aware of our own white supremacy blinders - which means also not over-playing the victimization of propertied, independent white women.
posted by jb at 10:33 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
About two years after she wrote this essay, I was in my first year of university and I was assigned to read Crowns of Glory, Tears of Blood, about the Demerara slave rebellion of 1823. The description of the torture and abuse of enslaved Africans was both unflinching and harrowing. More than twenty years later, I remember the feeling of that book - and what horrors white supremacy and colonialism wrought.
We absolutely should be aware of our own white supremacy blinders - which means also not over-playing the victimization of propertied, independent white women.
posted by jb at 10:33 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
The author said that she studied these feminists for 20 years and couldn't figure out where they got their inspiration from because of her own white supremacy. If these feminists had been bringing up all the European examples that you folks have been mentioning, don't you think the author would've noticed?
I think that if I were her peer or her boss, I'd gently suggest she look out of the very narrow box she had put herself into. BTW, I believe her idea that meeting the Iroquois influenced the suffragettes' thinking is very valid and sound. It's all the add-ins I find silly and a-historical. Describing well-off white women as near slaves is downright offensive. Imagining they didn't read the contemporary international "feminist" and other political literature seems weird to me, but this is not my corner of history, I have no idea what the sources are. (Feminist in scare quotes because it is an a-historical term). The mid-nineteenth century is one of the most dramatically revolutionary periods in recent history, globally. Everything was up for grabs. And it was very much a global debate. People might not have known what was going on in the instant, like we do today, but they did know within weeks.
posted by mumimor at 12:12 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think that if I were her peer or her boss, I'd gently suggest she look out of the very narrow box she had put herself into. BTW, I believe her idea that meeting the Iroquois influenced the suffragettes' thinking is very valid and sound. It's all the add-ins I find silly and a-historical. Describing well-off white women as near slaves is downright offensive. Imagining they didn't read the contemporary international "feminist" and other political literature seems weird to me, but this is not my corner of history, I have no idea what the sources are. (Feminist in scare quotes because it is an a-historical term). The mid-nineteenth century is one of the most dramatically revolutionary periods in recent history, globally. Everything was up for grabs. And it was very much a global debate. People might not have known what was going on in the instant, like we do today, but they did know within weeks.
posted by mumimor at 12:12 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
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I was just studying a section of Leviticus today that covers the "impurity" of various aspects of women's anatomy, and wondering how much of body shaming, particularly vagina shaming, can be attributed to that one tiny part of the Bible.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 3:38 PM on April 11, 2021 [3 favorites]