'Political Misdirection and Rebranding Exercises'
April 14, 2021 6:13 AM Subscribe
Top Republicans Want to Rebrand GOP as Party of Working Class (slNPR, includes link to six-page memo from Rep. Jim Banks* (R-IN))
This follows a 2013 autopsy (previously) calling for more inclusion, which the Trump administration 'defied' (NPR, 2020) and 'killed' (Politico, 2016).
This follows a 2013 autopsy (previously) calling for more inclusion, which the Trump administration 'defied' (NPR, 2020) and 'killed' (Politico, 2016).
So they basically want to make “ white voters without a college degree” resent everyone else, so they can take over the country and “own” us. Everyone who is not “working class,” even if historically conservative, are not Real Americans, and if not a liberal outright then a RINO.
“Idiocracy” was a warning.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:30 AM on April 14, 2021 [44 favorites]
“Idiocracy” was a warning.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:30 AM on April 14, 2021 [44 favorites]
Of course they do.
posted by 41swans at 6:53 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by 41swans at 6:53 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hey, this is good news, Americans sorely need policies that help the working class. Finally they can meet us on wages and healthcare and maternity and ...
Oh, what's that? They don't have policies that favor the working class? Their strategy is ... checks notes .... calling Cardi B a slut. Right. They must think Americans are pretty racist and misogynist if they think that'll work ... checks notes ... well, fuck.
posted by adept256 at 7:06 AM on April 14, 2021 [95 favorites]
Oh, what's that? They don't have policies that favor the working class? Their strategy is ... checks notes .... calling Cardi B a slut. Right. They must think Americans are pretty racist and misogynist if they think that'll work ... checks notes ... well, fuck.
posted by adept256 at 7:06 AM on April 14, 2021 [95 favorites]
Trump's Base Is Shrinking As Whites Without A College Degree Continue To Decline [NPR, 9/3/20]:
In 2016, Trump was helped to victory by winning a record margin among white voters without a college degree. But in the last four years, they have declined as a share of the voting-eligible population across the U.S. and in states critical to the presidential election. Nationally, the group has gone from 45% of eligible voters to 41%.
Meanwhile, some other demographic cohorts — whites with a college degree, Latinos and, to a lesser extent, Asian Americans and other groups — have all gone up.
The GOP can say whatever it wants - the only chance it has, as currently constituted, is to consistently be the party of effective, widespread voter suppression. They're, of course, acting accordingly.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:11 AM on April 14, 2021 [30 favorites]
In 2016, Trump was helped to victory by winning a record margin among white voters without a college degree. But in the last four years, they have declined as a share of the voting-eligible population across the U.S. and in states critical to the presidential election. Nationally, the group has gone from 45% of eligible voters to 41%.
Meanwhile, some other demographic cohorts — whites with a college degree, Latinos and, to a lesser extent, Asian Americans and other groups — have all gone up.
The GOP can say whatever it wants - the only chance it has, as currently constituted, is to consistently be the party of effective, widespread voter suppression. They're, of course, acting accordingly.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:11 AM on April 14, 2021 [30 favorites]
I know it's hard to trust in any good faith developments but it feels like there should be way to reposition this as finding common ground vs. another R vs D war?
posted by The Ted at 7:11 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The Ted at 7:11 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Seems like a smart tactic. Pure clickbait politics ("Woke corporations hate him!") with a broad enough array of targets that they can keep the racists on board while being able to claim to be an all-purpose offender against political correctness, with no need to enact actual policies that help the working class, only some posturing and vaporware "like The Wall".
Can they beat the demographics with this plus a little more gerrymandering?
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 7:12 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Can they beat the demographics with this plus a little more gerrymandering?
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 7:12 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
The problem is that they have been the party of a significant portion of the working class for a pretty long time.
I've always hated "working class" bullshit, as it gets applied, as needed, by virtually everyone. My hope is that it becomes a truly meaningless phrase politically.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:13 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've always hated "working class" bullshit, as it gets applied, as needed, by virtually everyone. My hope is that it becomes a truly meaningless phrase politically.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:13 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
From the article: The working-class vote is complicated and too often confused with whiteness when about 40% of the working-class vote is people of color, Russo said. and The battle for the working class is even more urgent for the two parties because it's a growing bloc of voters. but we know that "whites without a college degree" is not a growing group of voters. So, uh, that leaves people the Republican Party has nothing but hatred and contempt for.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 7:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
I know it's hard to trust in any good faith developments but it feels like there should be way to reposition this as finding common ground vs. another R vs D war?
But they're racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, the list goes on* -- there is no "good faith" and there's no "common ground" to be had there. I don't want to find common ground with outright racists and frankly I find it hard to trust anyone who does; they are at best extremely, even dangerously, naive.
*not that the Democrats are perfect on any of these God knows
posted by an octopus IRL at 7:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [46 favorites]
But they're racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, the list goes on* -- there is no "good faith" and there's no "common ground" to be had there. I don't want to find common ground with outright racists and frankly I find it hard to trust anyone who does; they are at best extremely, even dangerously, naive.
*not that the Democrats are perfect on any of these God knows
posted by an octopus IRL at 7:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [46 favorites]
So they basically want to make “ white voters without a college degree” resent everyone else, so they can take over the country and “own” us. Everyone who is not “working class,” even if historically conservative, are not Real Americans, and if not a liberal outright then a RINO.
Is this new? I feel like I've been hearing about the goddamn socialist Ivy League Europe-loving out-of-touch godless liberal elite vs. good old small town hard-working working class churchgoing homespun values Real Americans for pretty much ever. That's been their branding for decades, even if it has nothing to do with their reality.
posted by trig at 7:20 AM on April 14, 2021 [33 favorites]
Is this new? I feel like I've been hearing about the goddamn socialist Ivy League Europe-loving out-of-touch godless liberal elite vs. good old small town hard-working working class churchgoing homespun values Real Americans for pretty much ever. That's been their branding for decades, even if it has nothing to do with their reality.
posted by trig at 7:20 AM on April 14, 2021 [33 favorites]
If that accompanying graph to the memo is to be believed, their deepest, reddest voting cohort ("Homemakers" and "Retired/Disabled") are, strictly speaking, not in the workplace at all.
posted by thivaia at 7:24 AM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 7:24 AM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Upon second glance, that graph shows donors, not voters, so maybe a cheap shot, but still stands.
posted by thivaia at 7:25 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 7:25 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
The other funny thing about that graphic is that two of the biggest bubbles are nurses and teachers, and both of them are blue. Weird how those don't qualify as "working class," I wonder why
posted by theodolite at 7:26 AM on April 14, 2021 [44 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 7:26 AM on April 14, 2021 [44 favorites]
If I was transitioning as a teen in several states, there are now laws preventing basic, safe medical help. North Carolina is working on laws where they are trying to make gender non-conforming behavior something to be mandatory reported. The effects of this are things that effect real people doing very hard things. If one single transgender person suicides because of these horribly oppressive laws, the entire Republican party has (even more) blood on it's hands. All 80 million or whatever.
This plus voter suppression plus attempting armed insurrection and overthrow of legally elected government plus sabotaging said government.... I haven't lived in a world where the right hasn't been building a case for honest to God war against me and my family and friends. Where they haven't been escalating the rhetoric and vile. Half the country votes for people who hate me. I wish any of this was hyperbole. I really do.
posted by Jacen at 7:29 AM on April 14, 2021 [50 favorites]
This plus voter suppression plus attempting armed insurrection and overthrow of legally elected government plus sabotaging said government.... I haven't lived in a world where the right hasn't been building a case for honest to God war against me and my family and friends. Where they haven't been escalating the rhetoric and vile. Half the country votes for people who hate me. I wish any of this was hyperbole. I really do.
posted by Jacen at 7:29 AM on April 14, 2021 [50 favorites]
The fact that the GOP was able to brand GWB as some sort of plain-talkin' man of the people and Trump as a champion of the working class proves that this strategy will never not work for the people who want it to work on them.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30 AM on April 14, 2021 [80 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30 AM on April 14, 2021 [80 favorites]
This is where I note again that a majority of REPUBLICAN voters favor a wealth tax on billionaires, along with something like 60 percent of registered independents and 70+ percent of Democrats. If the Democratic Party could get on board with popular things like that to address income and wealth inequality in this country (rather than running away screaming from such policies), it would go a hell of a long way towards taking the fangs out of any genuine economic appeal the GOP might think to make to working class Americans.
(And yes, it's not like the GOP has working class interests at heart or would ever pass a wealth tax itself. It's just that the Democrats could be so, so, so much better champions of the working class than they currently are, rather than leaving room for the GOP to contemplate claiming that rhetorical space.)
posted by Gadarene at 7:34 AM on April 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
(And yes, it's not like the GOP has working class interests at heart or would ever pass a wealth tax itself. It's just that the Democrats could be so, so, so much better champions of the working class than they currently are, rather than leaving room for the GOP to contemplate claiming that rhetorical space.)
posted by Gadarene at 7:34 AM on April 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
I saw a lovely graphic that suggested that for the past couple of decades the purpose of Republicans was to move everything rightwards towards more plutocracy, and the purpose of Democrats was to be seen to attempt but ultimately fail to move things back towards democracy.
It checks out, though.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:36 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
It checks out, though.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:36 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
They could rebrand as the Id party. Seems to be what they really stand for.
Id - Encyclopedia Britannica
Id, in Freudian psychoanalytic theory, one of the three agencies of the human personality, along with the ego and superego.
* The oldest of these psychic realms in development, it contains the psychic content related to the primitive instincts of the body, notably sex and aggression, as well as all psychic material that is inherited and present at birth.
* The id (Latin for “it”) is oblivious of the external world and unaware of the passage of time.
* Devoid of organization, knowing neither logic nor reason, it has the ability to harbour acutely conflicting or mutually contradictory impulses side by side. It functions entirely according to the pleasure-pain principle, its impulses either seeking immediate fulfillment or settling for a compromise fulfillment.
* The id supplies the energy for the development and continued functioning of conscious mental life, though the working processes of the id itself are completely unconscious in the adult (less unconscious in the child).
In waking life it belies its content in slips of the tongue, wit, art, and other at least partly nonrational modes of expression.
* The primary methods for unmasking its content, according to Freud, are the analysis of dreams and free association.
posted by lon_star at 7:38 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Id - Encyclopedia Britannica
Id, in Freudian psychoanalytic theory, one of the three agencies of the human personality, along with the ego and superego.
* The oldest of these psychic realms in development, it contains the psychic content related to the primitive instincts of the body, notably sex and aggression, as well as all psychic material that is inherited and present at birth.
* The id (Latin for “it”) is oblivious of the external world and unaware of the passage of time.
* Devoid of organization, knowing neither logic nor reason, it has the ability to harbour acutely conflicting or mutually contradictory impulses side by side. It functions entirely according to the pleasure-pain principle, its impulses either seeking immediate fulfillment or settling for a compromise fulfillment.
* The id supplies the energy for the development and continued functioning of conscious mental life, though the working processes of the id itself are completely unconscious in the adult (less unconscious in the child).
In waking life it belies its content in slips of the tongue, wit, art, and other at least partly nonrational modes of expression.
* The primary methods for unmasking its content, according to Freud, are the analysis of dreams and free association.
posted by lon_star at 7:38 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
From the article: The working-class vote is complicated and too often confused with whiteness when about 40% of the working-class vote is people of color, Russo said. and The battle for the working class is even more urgent for the two parties because it's a growing bloc of voters. but we know that "whites without a college degree" is not a growing group of voters. So, uh, that leaves people the Republican Party has nothing but hatred and contempt for.
People are flexible in their boundaries around concepts like "white" or "working class." The last election showed that in some regions, quite large percentages of latino men voted GOP, for example. I could see a potential aggrieved coalition nominally called "working class" but really motivated by grievances around gender, sexuality, economic populism, etc. being large enough to win elections. And having a coalition that includes significant numbers of non-white voters is a great insulation from charges of racism, even if racism remains the motivating factor for many or most of the voters.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:43 AM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
People are flexible in their boundaries around concepts like "white" or "working class." The last election showed that in some regions, quite large percentages of latino men voted GOP, for example. I could see a potential aggrieved coalition nominally called "working class" but really motivated by grievances around gender, sexuality, economic populism, etc. being large enough to win elections. And having a coalition that includes significant numbers of non-white voters is a great insulation from charges of racism, even if racism remains the motivating factor for many or most of the voters.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:43 AM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
No snark here but there are separate bubbles for stay-at-home moms and homemakers. I would have thought those would be one bubble? Is there a significant difference between the two (other than the existence of stay-at-home dads or whatever?)
posted by nushustu at 7:43 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 7:43 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
As far as I know, the GOP's practice since at least the inauguration of the Southern Strategy has been to leverage various prejudices to entice the underclass to vote for them, and then enact legislation that benefits corporations and the super-rich.
posted by slkinsey at 7:48 AM on April 14, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 7:48 AM on April 14, 2021 [27 favorites]
I feel like I've been hearing about the goddamn socialist Ivy League Europe-loving out-of-touch godless liberal elite vs. good old small town hard-working working class churchgoing homespun values Real Americans for pretty much ever.
Sarah Palin explicitly defined the latter as the only Real Americans, despite the fact that the vast majority of the US population lives in cities (which also represent the vast majority of the US economy).
posted by Gelatin at 7:53 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Sarah Palin explicitly defined the latter as the only Real Americans, despite the fact that the vast majority of the US population lives in cities (which also represent the vast majority of the US economy).
posted by Gelatin at 7:53 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Is there a significant difference between the two (other than the existence of stay-at-home dads or whatever?)
Yes. That difference is children. All women are of course potential moms, but some weird outliers among them never become moms. The term for a stay-at-home nonmom is homemaker.
There are also some stay-at-home moms who stop making new children for whatever reason at some point in their lives. Many of those moms' children achieve the age of majority and leave the home. After a mom's children leave the home she has been making and staying at, if the mom continues to stay at home she's technically still a stay-at-home mom but she can't call herself that because she's no longer actively momming anyone. So she's officially retired from the stay-at-home mom gig and her position title is now "homemaker."
posted by Don Pepino at 8:05 AM on April 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yes. That difference is children. All women are of course potential moms, but some weird outliers among them never become moms. The term for a stay-at-home nonmom is homemaker.
There are also some stay-at-home moms who stop making new children for whatever reason at some point in their lives. Many of those moms' children achieve the age of majority and leave the home. After a mom's children leave the home she has been making and staying at, if the mom continues to stay at home she's technically still a stay-at-home mom but she can't call herself that because she's no longer actively momming anyone. So she's officially retired from the stay-at-home mom gig and her position title is now "homemaker."
posted by Don Pepino at 8:05 AM on April 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I saw a lovely graphic that suggested that for the past couple of decades the purpose of Republicans was to move everything rightwards towards more plutocracy, and the purpose of Democrats was to be seen to attempt but ultimately fail to move things back towards democracy.
It checks out, though.
Oh you mean like the Biden administration bragging how it's bringing the corporate tax rate up to 28% when just a few years ago it used to be 35% and the administration and media act like we're supposed to be fucking ecstatic about this half-ass bullshit?
Yeah, it's called the ratchet effect.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:07 AM on April 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
It checks out, though.
Oh you mean like the Biden administration bragging how it's bringing the corporate tax rate up to 28% when just a few years ago it used to be 35% and the administration and media act like we're supposed to be fucking ecstatic about this half-ass bullshit?
Yeah, it's called the ratchet effect.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:07 AM on April 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
Lesson for folks broadly on the left: don't tolerate the use of the term "working class" to mean "white men without college degrees". It's completely a-factual.
posted by latkes at 8:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [52 favorites]
posted by latkes at 8:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [52 favorites]
white voters without a college degree — an imperfect but widely used metric to quantify the working-class voting bloc
So long as this is the case, Republicans will find success in "rebranding", as they always seem to do regardless of their actual, you know, policies.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:16 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
So long as this is the case, Republicans will find success in "rebranding", as they always seem to do regardless of their actual, you know, policies.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:16 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
*not that the Democrats are perfect on any of these God knows
I just have to note that's a very small little asterisk for a party that had monsters like Bill Clinton, Michael Bloomberg and John Kasich speaking at their fucking Democratic National Convention to attract...uh, which voters again?
The fact is that the national Democratic party is just fine appealing to racists, transphobes, right-wingers, All Livers Matter police-respecters etc - as long as they are relatively affluent, educated, classy, suburban. Talking about the working class, labor, aggressively taxing the rich, expanding the social safety net, remains divisive topics for party in-fighting and debate.
I won't be surprised if the unified GOP hivemind gets more and more comfortable pointing out these contradictions like "hell yeah fuck the rich elite - look at liberal Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos, thinks 'Black Lives Matter' but not really!!!" which would be...pretty much true? And we'll have to sit and watch the right wing successfully, cynically wield class warfare in their rhetoric to grow their base, even if we all know it's bullshit, and it will trickle more (disproportionately non-white!) working class voters from dems. Frustrating when it could *easily* be the democrats lane, but "we're not republicans and republicans are dumb trashy hypocrites and lunatics" seems to be the only sword in the broader culture/messaging wars that they're willing to deploy.
Oh you mean like the Biden administration bragging how it's bringing the corporate tax rate up to 28% when just a few years ago it used to be 35% and the administration and media act like we're supposed to be fucking ecstatic about this half-ass bullshit?
Yeah, it's called the ratchet effect.
Yup. Dems party slogan at this point should just be "1 step forward for every 3 steps back".
posted by windbox at 8:31 AM on April 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
I just have to note that's a very small little asterisk for a party that had monsters like Bill Clinton, Michael Bloomberg and John Kasich speaking at their fucking Democratic National Convention to attract...uh, which voters again?
The fact is that the national Democratic party is just fine appealing to racists, transphobes, right-wingers, All Livers Matter police-respecters etc - as long as they are relatively affluent, educated, classy, suburban. Talking about the working class, labor, aggressively taxing the rich, expanding the social safety net, remains divisive topics for party in-fighting and debate.
I won't be surprised if the unified GOP hivemind gets more and more comfortable pointing out these contradictions like "hell yeah fuck the rich elite - look at liberal Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos, thinks 'Black Lives Matter' but not really!!!" which would be...pretty much true? And we'll have to sit and watch the right wing successfully, cynically wield class warfare in their rhetoric to grow their base, even if we all know it's bullshit, and it will trickle more (disproportionately non-white!) working class voters from dems. Frustrating when it could *easily* be the democrats lane, but "we're not republicans and republicans are dumb trashy hypocrites and lunatics" seems to be the only sword in the broader culture/messaging wars that they're willing to deploy.
Oh you mean like the Biden administration bragging how it's bringing the corporate tax rate up to 28% when just a few years ago it used to be 35% and the administration and media act like we're supposed to be fucking ecstatic about this half-ass bullshit?
Yeah, it's called the ratchet effect.
Yup. Dems party slogan at this point should just be "1 step forward for every 3 steps back".
posted by windbox at 8:31 AM on April 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
The fact is that the national Democratic party is just fine appealing to racists, transphobes, right-wingers, All Livers Matter police-respecters etc - as long as they are relatively affluent, educated, classy, suburban.
It sucks, but these are the people who vote and vote regularly - every election. Just by their voting, their interests are going to be more heavily represented even among democrats than any other bloc.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
It sucks, but these are the people who vote and vote regularly - every election. Just by their voting, their interests are going to be more heavily represented even among democrats than any other bloc.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
"It sucks, but these are the people who vote and vote regularly - every election. Just by their voting, their interests are going to be more heavily represented even among democrats than any other bloc."
You know, like we were talking about upthread, some "Democratic" positions are WILDLY popular with the entire populace, including this motley crew of fuckwits just described.
Here's the thing, they could capture the votes of those fuckwits by, I don't know, heavily taxing corporations or going after universal healthcare, things that are extremely popular even with conservatives.
This is a false, bullshit argument, because a lot of those people are actually the same people who would come out to vote for Democrats if they actually accomplished anything instead of just offering platitudes and bowing in fucking Kente cloths. (Yeah, conservatives are right to call out this performative bullshit, it's just sad that they're a bunch of fucking charlatans who are only doing this to increase their own power.)
If the Democrats want their votes, they can get them without catering to those voters worst ideologies and I'm sick as living fuck of people suggesting fucking otherwise.
The entire fucking country wants more stimulus payments, not even half the Democrats want to pass more stimulus. They could win these votes so fucking easily but they refuse to do so by actually doing things their citizens want.
Hell, Ron Paul proved that even a large portion of conservatives are anti-war. I've met plenty of conservatives who understand the importance of net neutrality (they tend to be younger). The idea that we can't reach out to these voters without playing the game Republicans do and trying to get their vote by coercing their worst impulses is such a load of fucking bullshit I can't even.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:59 AM on April 14, 2021 [23 favorites]
You know, like we were talking about upthread, some "Democratic" positions are WILDLY popular with the entire populace, including this motley crew of fuckwits just described.
Here's the thing, they could capture the votes of those fuckwits by, I don't know, heavily taxing corporations or going after universal healthcare, things that are extremely popular even with conservatives.
This is a false, bullshit argument, because a lot of those people are actually the same people who would come out to vote for Democrats if they actually accomplished anything instead of just offering platitudes and bowing in fucking Kente cloths. (Yeah, conservatives are right to call out this performative bullshit, it's just sad that they're a bunch of fucking charlatans who are only doing this to increase their own power.)
If the Democrats want their votes, they can get them without catering to those voters worst ideologies and I'm sick as living fuck of people suggesting fucking otherwise.
The entire fucking country wants more stimulus payments, not even half the Democrats want to pass more stimulus. They could win these votes so fucking easily but they refuse to do so by actually doing things their citizens want.
Hell, Ron Paul proved that even a large portion of conservatives are anti-war. I've met plenty of conservatives who understand the importance of net neutrality (they tend to be younger). The idea that we can't reach out to these voters without playing the game Republicans do and trying to get their vote by coercing their worst impulses is such a load of fucking bullshit I can't even.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:59 AM on April 14, 2021 [23 favorites]
Oh, and the one stimulus payment the Democrats did finally shit out after some serious gaslighting about 2000 or 1400 is so wildly popular with conservatives that plenty of the Republican representatives who voted against it are taking credit for it.
Maybe, just maybe, that means something.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:08 AM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
Maybe, just maybe, that means something.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:08 AM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
Lesson for folks broadly on the left: don't tolerate the use of the term "working class" to mean "white men without college degrees". It's completely a-factual.
This!! I can probably go dig up some sources, but if you slice working class by income, lower-income people did not break R. If you slice it by not going to college, "people who didn't go to college" did not break R. It's the whiteness.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:16 AM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
This!! I can probably go dig up some sources, but if you slice working class by income, lower-income people did not break R. If you slice it by not going to college, "people who didn't go to college" did not break R. It's the whiteness.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:16 AM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
The real tip-off here is this:
And I predict it will crash long before the 2022 midterm election, as we see a lot of government spending inflate the economy, but then when it bottoms out and American workers, blue-collar working-class Americans feel the effect of it, they're gonna blame Joe Biden and Democrats for it
Until you’re actually ready to ease up on the fiscal conservatism you’re just adopting another culture war pose. Obviously, I think, to most people here, but there you go.
posted by atoxyl at 9:21 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
And I predict it will crash long before the 2022 midterm election, as we see a lot of government spending inflate the economy, but then when it bottoms out and American workers, blue-collar working-class Americans feel the effect of it, they're gonna blame Joe Biden and Democrats for it
Until you’re actually ready to ease up on the fiscal conservatism you’re just adopting another culture war pose. Obviously, I think, to most people here, but there you go.
posted by atoxyl at 9:21 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is a false, bullshit argument, because a lot of those people are actually the same people who would come out to vote for Democrats
One, we don't need a lot of those people right now. We need all of them to overcome the minority rule effect that's currently in play. Biden won by a large margin of the popular vote, but could have lost the electoral college had a few states gone the other way by a fairly slim margin.
Two, I don't accept the premise. Too many voters are voting based on how they identify with candidates and not based on performance.
Look at Georgia and the senate races. The Dem candidates were clearly for more progressive policies and the GOP pair were obviously self-dealing candidates squarely against the interests of the working class. And the Dems still just barely pulled it out. Given the BS that's going on with election laws in GA now, I'm not sure they'd be able to again.
posted by jzb at 9:21 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
One, we don't need a lot of those people right now. We need all of them to overcome the minority rule effect that's currently in play. Biden won by a large margin of the popular vote, but could have lost the electoral college had a few states gone the other way by a fairly slim margin.
Two, I don't accept the premise. Too many voters are voting based on how they identify with candidates and not based on performance.
Look at Georgia and the senate races. The Dem candidates were clearly for more progressive policies and the GOP pair were obviously self-dealing candidates squarely against the interests of the working class. And the Dems still just barely pulled it out. Given the BS that's going on with election laws in GA now, I'm not sure they'd be able to again.
posted by jzb at 9:21 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
Look at Georgia and the senate races. The Dem candidates were clearly for more progressive policies and the GOP pair were obviously self-dealing candidates squarely against the interests of the working class. And the Dems still just barely pulled it out. Given the BS that's going on with election laws in GA now, I'm not sure they'd be able to again.
They could easily do it again if they fix voting (isn't that what HR1 is supposed to do?), but they're literally fighting people in their own party over bullshit like the filibuster.
They're in power, they have a chance to steamroll the changes that are needed to shut down the chicanery of the Republicans, but too many of them seemingly have their own hands in the proverbial cookie jar, and aren't interested in actually solving those issues, and are more than happy to allow the Republicans to continue to gerrymander and strip voting rights.
*shrugs
I don't understand why people defend their absolute ineffectiveness, especially when all it gets us is one step forward, three steps back.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:28 AM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
They could easily do it again if they fix voting (isn't that what HR1 is supposed to do?), but they're literally fighting people in their own party over bullshit like the filibuster.
They're in power, they have a chance to steamroll the changes that are needed to shut down the chicanery of the Republicans, but too many of them seemingly have their own hands in the proverbial cookie jar, and aren't interested in actually solving those issues, and are more than happy to allow the Republicans to continue to gerrymander and strip voting rights.
*shrugs
I don't understand why people defend their absolute ineffectiveness, especially when all it gets us is one step forward, three steps back.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:28 AM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
FWIW, I think Biden's bipartisanship is shifting hard towards 'things popular with a broad majority of voters' since the republican party is refusing to play ball... This seems like the right move to me.
They're in power, they have a chance to steamroll the changes that are needed to shut down the chicanery of the Republicans, but too many of them seemingly have their own hands in the proverbial cookie jar[...]
This is the problem of the 50-50 Senate: too many == one. You just need one asshole to stop shit from getting done. Still much better than not having the majority, though.
posted by kaibutsu at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
They're in power, they have a chance to steamroll the changes that are needed to shut down the chicanery of the Republicans, but too many of them seemingly have their own hands in the proverbial cookie jar[...]
This is the problem of the 50-50 Senate: too many == one. You just need one asshole to stop shit from getting done. Still much better than not having the majority, though.
posted by kaibutsu at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
Hey, this is good news, Americans sorely need policies that help the working class. Finally they can meet us on wages and healthcare and maternity and ...
Oh, what's that? They don't have policies that favor the working class? Their strategy is ... checks notes .... calling Cardi B a slut. Right. They must think Americans are pretty racist and misogynist if they think that'll work ... checks notes ... well, fuck.
Quoting the article:
Say what you will about the sincerity of these policy positions, and certainly they're merely expedient as an appeal to voters. But isn't that the point?
posted by mr_roboto at 9:39 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh, what's that? They don't have policies that favor the working class? Their strategy is ... checks notes .... calling Cardi B a slut. Right. They must think Americans are pretty racist and misogynist if they think that'll work ... checks notes ... well, fuck.
Quoting the article:
Top Senate Republicans — some considering 2024 presidential runs — have been echoing the call to remake the party even before the 2020 election. "We've got a big battle in front of us, Republicans do, to try and make this party truly the party of working-class America," Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Mo., said in November.
He's among a number of Senate Republicans who have taken recent positions that run counter to longstanding party orthodoxy, such as linking up with Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont in support of stimulus checks last year and supporting a mandatory $15 minimum wage for companies with annual revenues over $1 billion.
Others include Florida's Marco Rubio, who recently sided with pro-union forces in an organizing dispute at Amazon and speaks frequently of "common good capitalism," and Utah's Mitt Romney, who has introduced legislation to expand the welfare state to provide more generous benefits to combat child poverty.
Say what you will about the sincerity of these policy positions, and certainly they're merely expedient as an appeal to voters. But isn't that the point?
posted by mr_roboto at 9:39 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
if they fix voting
Exactly. Remember when Obama first was elected and on election night he cited the insanely long lines to vote in Florida and said "by the way, we're going to fix that" and then didn't fix that? And it was TERRIBLE then and it's gotten WORSE ever since and it's ABYSMAL now? I mean christalmighty look at their risible bubblechart with the, whatever, the "homemakers" and seven or eight red and reddish bubbles supposedly acting as a "base" for the ENORMOUS PILE of blue and blueish and gray bubbles. According to this imagining and current republican strategy, the entire American experiment is teetering on and held hostage to a small circle of universally despised rabid maniac Karens.
Until we fix voting--do something about gerrymandering and voter suppression--it won't matter wtf anybody does or says. The republican base will continue to dwindle and it won't matter because they will keep winning on their shrunken crazed base no matter how small and maniacal it gets BECAUSE THEY BROKE THE SYSTEM FOREVERAGO. They can put any outrageous clown they like into office and push out increasingly demonic legislation and do whatever they want with the supreme court and blah blah etc. unless and until we fix voting.
And then we should impeach Thomas and Kavanaugh.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:39 AM on April 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
Exactly. Remember when Obama first was elected and on election night he cited the insanely long lines to vote in Florida and said "by the way, we're going to fix that" and then didn't fix that? And it was TERRIBLE then and it's gotten WORSE ever since and it's ABYSMAL now? I mean christalmighty look at their risible bubblechart with the, whatever, the "homemakers" and seven or eight red and reddish bubbles supposedly acting as a "base" for the ENORMOUS PILE of blue and blueish and gray bubbles. According to this imagining and current republican strategy, the entire American experiment is teetering on and held hostage to a small circle of universally despised rabid maniac Karens.
Until we fix voting--do something about gerrymandering and voter suppression--it won't matter wtf anybody does or says. The republican base will continue to dwindle and it won't matter because they will keep winning on their shrunken crazed base no matter how small and maniacal it gets BECAUSE THEY BROKE THE SYSTEM FOREVERAGO. They can put any outrageous clown they like into office and push out increasingly demonic legislation and do whatever they want with the supreme court and blah blah etc. unless and until we fix voting.
And then we should impeach Thomas and Kavanaugh.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:39 AM on April 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
I just have to note that's a very small little asterisk for a party that had monsters like Bill Clinton, Michael Bloomberg and John Kasich speaking at their fucking Democratic National Convention to attract...uh, which voters again?
Let's not forget Cuomo, who also helps illustrate that a big part of the problem is the Democratic base itself. The man has multiple accusations of sexual assault and harassment on top of his usual NY party machine corruption shenanigans (to say nothing of over a decade of selling out Dem voters), and yet over 65% of NY Democrats insist that he should stay Governor.
Exactly. Remember when Obama first was elected and on election night he cited the insanely long lines to vote in Florida and said "by the way, we're going to fix that" and then didn't fix that? And it was TERRIBLE then and it's gotten WORSE ever since and it's ABYSMAL now?
"Another way of describing the moment is that the Democrats under Obama suffered a net loss of 12 U.S. Senate seats, 64 House seats, 13 governorships and 816 state legislative seats, the most by a party in 50 yrs., then lost the Electoral College to Trump."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:49 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Let's not forget Cuomo, who also helps illustrate that a big part of the problem is the Democratic base itself. The man has multiple accusations of sexual assault and harassment on top of his usual NY party machine corruption shenanigans (to say nothing of over a decade of selling out Dem voters), and yet over 65% of NY Democrats insist that he should stay Governor.
Exactly. Remember when Obama first was elected and on election night he cited the insanely long lines to vote in Florida and said "by the way, we're going to fix that" and then didn't fix that? And it was TERRIBLE then and it's gotten WORSE ever since and it's ABYSMAL now?
"Another way of describing the moment is that the Democrats under Obama suffered a net loss of 12 U.S. Senate seats, 64 House seats, 13 governorships and 816 state legislative seats, the most by a party in 50 yrs., then lost the Electoral College to Trump."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:49 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Like, every Democrat who supported Obama and Biden's downballot electoral strategy complaining about a 50-50 Senate is basically Hot Dog Guy going "we're all trying to find the guy who did this."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:53 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:53 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Democrats can't even manage to generate net political capital out of the January 6th riot and coup attempted by the only other viable party.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:03 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:03 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
Here's the thing, they could capture the votes of those fuckwits by, I don't know, heavily taxing corporations or going after universal healthcare, things that are extremely popular even with conservatives.
But those conservatives don't see a contradiction between something like "universal" health care on one hand and then restricting abortions on the other. "Why not both?" as the saying goes. And to an extent, I think that they know they can get both. They can choose to sit out elections or even occasionally hold their nose and vote for a Dem to maybe get health care. But they'll switch back right after when the Dems become "too woke" or whatever.
posted by FJT at 10:09 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
But those conservatives don't see a contradiction between something like "universal" health care on one hand and then restricting abortions on the other. "Why not both?" as the saying goes. And to an extent, I think that they know they can get both. They can choose to sit out elections or even occasionally hold their nose and vote for a Dem to maybe get health care. But they'll switch back right after when the Dems become "too woke" or whatever.
posted by FJT at 10:09 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
I feel like part of this David Graeber talk is really crucial for understanding American politics, even though his focus on Labour. Democrats were able to cobble together a voting bloc to just barely beat Trump, but there is still an unresolved problem. Finding common ground amont the caring classes with the professional/managerial classes is going to be a real problem for the party. The republicans are working to capitalize on it.
http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/managerial-feudalism-revolt-caring-classes/
posted by lownote at 10:10 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/managerial-feudalism-revolt-caring-classes/
posted by lownote at 10:10 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I know it's hard to trust in any good faith developments but it feels like there should be way to reposition this as finding common ground vs. another R vs D war?
I don't know what you mean. Obviously this article about the Republicans courting the white racist vote calls for another discussion about how much the Democrats suck.
posted by biogeo at 10:22 AM on April 14, 2021 [31 favorites]
This is the problem of the 50-50 Senate: too many == one. You just need one asshole to stop shit from getting done. Still much better than not having the majority, though.
And Manchin is the one Senator that gets us to 50-50 in the first place. Say what you will about his policies or politics, he's a Democrat that can get elected in West Virginia and caucuses with Democrats and not Republicans, giving them the majority.
The solution to getting Manchin out of that position of power is either to elect a more progressive Democratic Senator in West Virginia -- lots of luck -- or to elect other Democrats to the Senate elsewhere, despite the body's inherent bias in favor of Republicans.
And to do that, you have to overcome the inherent bias in favor of Republicans from the so-called "liberal media."
Suggesting that Democrats can "steamroll" a more progressive agenda than they already are doesn't seem to fit the facts, regardless of what we all might want.
posted by Gelatin at 10:24 AM on April 14, 2021 [23 favorites]
And Manchin is the one Senator that gets us to 50-50 in the first place. Say what you will about his policies or politics, he's a Democrat that can get elected in West Virginia and caucuses with Democrats and not Republicans, giving them the majority.
The solution to getting Manchin out of that position of power is either to elect a more progressive Democratic Senator in West Virginia -- lots of luck -- or to elect other Democrats to the Senate elsewhere, despite the body's inherent bias in favor of Republicans.
And to do that, you have to overcome the inherent bias in favor of Republicans from the so-called "liberal media."
Suggesting that Democrats can "steamroll" a more progressive agenda than they already are doesn't seem to fit the facts, regardless of what we all might want.
posted by Gelatin at 10:24 AM on April 14, 2021 [23 favorites]
Sure, Manchin is willing to throw out democracy to keep his seat, that's... supposed to admirable, somehow?
Maybe someone needs to put some pressure on him and tell him "Fuck your seat, the country matters more."
But I guess fuck actually having an ounce of courage.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:27 AM on April 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Maybe someone needs to put some pressure on him and tell him "Fuck your seat, the country matters more."
But I guess fuck actually having an ounce of courage.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:27 AM on April 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't know what you mean. Obviously this article about the Republicans courting the white racist vote calls for another discussion about how much the Democrats suck.
Every political thread here ends up as an argument over whether the Democrats are really terrible or really, really terrible.
posted by octothorpe at 10:32 AM on April 14, 2021 [44 favorites]
Every political thread here ends up as an argument over whether the Democrats are really terrible or really, really terrible.
posted by octothorpe at 10:32 AM on April 14, 2021 [44 favorites]
I've been through a few election cycles as a voting adult by now. One thing I've noticed is, the country gives the GOP 4-8 years to dig a hole, fill it with their turds, and light said turd-pit on fire. Then as soon as Democrats get back in office, we want to know why that flaming turd-pit hasn't magically transformed into Disneyland overnight.
Black voters, college kids, and shift workers have obstacle courses in their path to the ballot box. Red-state city dwellers know what it means to be gerrymandered out of having a voice, again and again. They are trapped in a near-hopeless feedback loop, and still many of them are fighting like hell to get (even imperfect) Democrats elected.
"Fix voting" isn't a fifteen-minute honey-do. It requires as many people as possible to vote for (even imperfect) Dems, up and down the ballot, and to encourage other people to do the same.
Whataboutism that "the Democrats suck too" is an act of voter discouragement. So is boasting about keeping your hands clean by sitting on them in the midterms and the locals. It might well bring about a revolution, but not the one you're dreaming of.
posted by armeowda at 10:40 AM on April 14, 2021 [54 favorites]
Black voters, college kids, and shift workers have obstacle courses in their path to the ballot box. Red-state city dwellers know what it means to be gerrymandered out of having a voice, again and again. They are trapped in a near-hopeless feedback loop, and still many of them are fighting like hell to get (even imperfect) Democrats elected.
"Fix voting" isn't a fifteen-minute honey-do. It requires as many people as possible to vote for (even imperfect) Dems, up and down the ballot, and to encourage other people to do the same.
Whataboutism that "the Democrats suck too" is an act of voter discouragement. So is boasting about keeping your hands clean by sitting on them in the midterms and the locals. It might well bring about a revolution, but not the one you're dreaming of.
posted by armeowda at 10:40 AM on April 14, 2021 [54 favorites]
It seem that much of the heat and light in this thread is based on the premise that voting is a rational act for most people. I understand the appeal of this line of thinking and wish it were true, but it's a theory that simply isn't borne out by recent history.
I spend a decent amount of time in Tom McClintock's district where I have a house. His signs make nuanced arguments about how all democrats are socialists and how you should support the police by defunding democrats instead. He sponsored an aggressive anti-mask protest in my little town of 1900 people, with many retirees in at-risk groups. His signs also talk about whether growing food is wasting water, which is a reference to the state of the Central Valley Project's water deliveries and a key issue to farmers. It's a federal irrigation system which no longer makes deliveries to the west side of the valley in order to sustain enough flow into Suisun Bay to protect the ecosystem in the delta and elsewhere in the watershed. Many otherwise productive farms are now unworkable because of this lack of water and in exchange, the delta ecosystem hasn't collapsed yet. This is a hard tradeoff that strikes right at the heart of a working class narrative. All this said, he wins handily in a blue state and has for years.
Last cycle, McClintock had a challenger who in many ways is a California Horatio Alger type story. She is young, well educated, started a software company, put in time as a CEO, etc. She spoke extensively about working class needs to farmers and agri workers and had a lot of plans, which were not discussed in any meaningful way during the election by anyone not associated with her campaign. Echoes of the Clinton campaign in many ways. She lost, of course, even though McClintock largely phoned it in and by most reasonable measures she was a superior candidate.
No true scotsman-ing progressivism is not the cure for a political landscape that has been converted into a team sport with only 2 major league teams.
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:40 AM on April 14, 2021 [26 favorites]
I spend a decent amount of time in Tom McClintock's district where I have a house. His signs make nuanced arguments about how all democrats are socialists and how you should support the police by defunding democrats instead. He sponsored an aggressive anti-mask protest in my little town of 1900 people, with many retirees in at-risk groups. His signs also talk about whether growing food is wasting water, which is a reference to the state of the Central Valley Project's water deliveries and a key issue to farmers. It's a federal irrigation system which no longer makes deliveries to the west side of the valley in order to sustain enough flow into Suisun Bay to protect the ecosystem in the delta and elsewhere in the watershed. Many otherwise productive farms are now unworkable because of this lack of water and in exchange, the delta ecosystem hasn't collapsed yet. This is a hard tradeoff that strikes right at the heart of a working class narrative. All this said, he wins handily in a blue state and has for years.
Last cycle, McClintock had a challenger who in many ways is a California Horatio Alger type story. She is young, well educated, started a software company, put in time as a CEO, etc. She spoke extensively about working class needs to farmers and agri workers and had a lot of plans, which were not discussed in any meaningful way during the election by anyone not associated with her campaign. Echoes of the Clinton campaign in many ways. She lost, of course, even though McClintock largely phoned it in and by most reasonable measures she was a superior candidate.
No true scotsman-ing progressivism is not the cure for a political landscape that has been converted into a team sport with only 2 major league teams.
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:40 AM on April 14, 2021 [26 favorites]
Every political thread here ends up as an argument over whether the Democrats are really terrible or really, really terrible.
Many Democratic politicians are absolutely amazing. The Democratic Party and its focus on the interests of corporate donors and maintaining the status quo for the comfortable wealthy is terrible.
Really, really.
posted by Gadarene at 11:00 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Many Democratic politicians are absolutely amazing. The Democratic Party and its focus on the interests of corporate donors and maintaining the status quo for the comfortable wealthy is terrible.
Really, really.
posted by Gadarene at 11:00 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm not suggesting anyone hold back their critiques but you have to consider that while you might be correct in identifying that there is a problem, it's not solvable with the straightforward means you would prefer. This isn't a question of bravery or courage. Maybe it should be, but it's really a question of realpolitik and using leverage other than purity to get people to do things they think might be against their interests. Until we can break the team sports deadlock that's the toolbox we have.
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:00 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:00 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
The reason there is heat in this thread is because this playbook by the Republicans will be successful and the Democrats are going to do everything in their power to help it be successful by not just being fucking daring instead of being wussy fucks like Manchin who are more worried about their personal career than having courage for the sake of everyone in the fucking country.
How exactly do you think that the Democrats should invent votes in the Senate that they don't have? Just by trying harder?
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
How exactly do you think that the Democrats should invent votes in the Senate that they don't have? Just by trying harder?
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm not suggesting anyone hold back their critiques but you have to consider that while you might be correct in identifying that there is a problem, it's not solvable with the straightforward means you would prefer. This isn't a question of bravery or courage. Maybe it should be, but it's really a question of realpolitik and using leverage other than purity to get people to do things they think might be against their interests. Until we can break the team sports deadlock that's the toolbox we have.
There's so much that Biden could be doing that he's not, irrespective of the Senate makeup. Let's cancel student debt, for a start.
posted by Gadarene at 11:06 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's so much that Biden could be doing that he's not, irrespective of the Senate makeup. Let's cancel student debt, for a start.
posted by Gadarene at 11:06 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
If drastic progressive legislation isn't an available option, can someone please tell me what feasibly can prevent this nation from falling into Jesus-flavored fascism and/or irrecoverable ecological collapse within the next thirty years? I don't mean to doomsay, but I'm hearing you all arguing over what's necessary versus what's possible, and I'm not hearing any reason for hope.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:07 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:07 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Just by trying harder?
I literally said: Apply pressure on Manchin. Republicans find legal ways to lean on their party members to get them to play ball, a lot. Yes, they also resort to a lot of illegal ways, but a lot of that shit is legal and in plain sight. I'm fucksure there's a lot of things they could pressure Manchin with that are perfectly legal that could make him change his mind. I just don't think there is the political willpower to do it.
Is this really that hard of a fucking concept to understand? You MAKE Manchin play ball and then you have the fucking votes. No, it's not a nice nor really ethical thing to do, but honestly, it's that or a future that is a lot like the Handmaid's Tale, because if we DON'T handle these things NOW, we won't have an opportunity to in the future.
"I don't mean to doomsay, but I'm hearing you all arguing over what's necessary versus what's possible, and I'm not hearing any reason for hope."
Fucking. Exactly.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:11 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I literally said: Apply pressure on Manchin. Republicans find legal ways to lean on their party members to get them to play ball, a lot. Yes, they also resort to a lot of illegal ways, but a lot of that shit is legal and in plain sight. I'm fucksure there's a lot of things they could pressure Manchin with that are perfectly legal that could make him change his mind. I just don't think there is the political willpower to do it.
Is this really that hard of a fucking concept to understand? You MAKE Manchin play ball and then you have the fucking votes. No, it's not a nice nor really ethical thing to do, but honestly, it's that or a future that is a lot like the Handmaid's Tale, because if we DON'T handle these things NOW, we won't have an opportunity to in the future.
"I don't mean to doomsay, but I'm hearing you all arguing over what's necessary versus what's possible, and I'm not hearing any reason for hope."
Fucking. Exactly.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:11 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Pressure Manchin with what, a far-left challenger in West Virginia? His current term ends in four years.
posted by migurski at 11:14 AM on April 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by migurski at 11:14 AM on April 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
DC statehood and eliminating the filibuster = not relying on Manchin anymore = Manchin being free to vote however he wants
All Democrats are winners
posted by Gadarene at 11:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
All Democrats are winners
posted by Gadarene at 11:15 AM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
So if I were Joe Biden, I'd be very vocal at every opportunity about how we need to grant proper representation for the 800,000 plurality Black citizens residing in the federal district who currently don't have any.
Seems like a can't lose proposition; it's the right thing to do AND it benefits him and his party in achieving their stated goals.
I'm sure he's being vocal, right?
Right?
posted by Gadarene at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Seems like a can't lose proposition; it's the right thing to do AND it benefits him and his party in achieving their stated goals.
I'm sure he's being vocal, right?
Right?
posted by Gadarene at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
You guys really don't think there's some Senate procedural bullshit they can't corner him with? Really? There's not something scummy in his past that they might wave the idea of deeply investigating in front of his face? Fucking really? Manchin just screams financial crimes to me.
Or have we really just accepted that the rich and connected never have their lives put under a fine-toothed comb?
I am absolutely sure there's some shit Manchin is embarrassed about. Get a private detective, do some opposition research. Don't threaten him with a primary, threaten to just ruin his fucking career (which is all he seemingly cares about.).
And then after he plays ball ruin his career anyway because fuck him, especially if they actually found fishy illegal shit.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Or have we really just accepted that the rich and connected never have their lives put under a fine-toothed comb?
I am absolutely sure there's some shit Manchin is embarrassed about. Get a private detective, do some opposition research. Don't threaten him with a primary, threaten to just ruin his fucking career (which is all he seemingly cares about.).
And then after he plays ball ruin his career anyway because fuck him, especially if they actually found fishy illegal shit.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:17 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I am absolutely sure there's some shit Manchin is embarrassed about. Get a private detective, do some opposition research. Don't threaten him with a primary, threaten to just ruin his fucking career (which is all he seemingly cares about.).
Just throwing it out there but you're more than capable of doing this as a private citizen.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:19 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Just throwing it out there but you're more than capable of doing this as a private citizen.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:19 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
How exactly do you think that the Democrats should invent votes in the Senate that they don't have? Just by trying harder?
Also, this, I mean...
Yes, they can invent votes in the Senate that they currently don't have! They can literally do that thing.
posted by Gadarene at 11:19 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also, this, I mean...
Yes, they can invent votes in the Senate that they currently don't have! They can literally do that thing.
posted by Gadarene at 11:19 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Sure, Manchin is willing to throw out democracy to keep his seat, that's... supposed to admirable, somehow?
It isn't admirable at all, but it is reality.
Maybe someone needs to put some pressure on him and tell him "Fuck your seat, the country matters more."
What pressure? Without Manchin in that seat, you'll have a Republican, a 51-49 Republican Senate, and Mitch McConnell setting the agenda, which means it doesn't even matter what the House passes -- or who Biden nominates --because McConnell can and will refuse to consider it.
We know this, because he's done it.
To apply pressure, one needs to have a credible threat. Threatening to turn Manchin's seat over to the Republicans so they can hamstring the Democratic agenda such as it is is a kind of threat, but not one likely to impress Manchin. Which is why I said to actually reduce Manchin's influence, you have to elect several more Democratic Senators despite the institution's bias in favor of Republicans. Which, of course, you entirely failed to address.
Let's leave the empty tough talk to the Republicans, what say?
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on April 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
It isn't admirable at all, but it is reality.
Maybe someone needs to put some pressure on him and tell him "Fuck your seat, the country matters more."
What pressure? Without Manchin in that seat, you'll have a Republican, a 51-49 Republican Senate, and Mitch McConnell setting the agenda, which means it doesn't even matter what the House passes -- or who Biden nominates --because McConnell can and will refuse to consider it.
We know this, because he's done it.
To apply pressure, one needs to have a credible threat. Threatening to turn Manchin's seat over to the Republicans so they can hamstring the Democratic agenda such as it is is a kind of threat, but not one likely to impress Manchin. Which is why I said to actually reduce Manchin's influence, you have to elect several more Democratic Senators despite the institution's bias in favor of Republicans. Which, of course, you entirely failed to address.
Let's leave the empty tough talk to the Republicans, what say?
posted by Gelatin at 11:21 AM on April 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
Biden running against defunding the police and M4A helped, not hurt him. Far left ideologues are not electorally popular.
This is a liberal mantra based largely off the Dem leadership intentionally twisting AOC's own common-sense election post-mortem for the party.
With what leverage?
WV is the 6th poorest state in the country, so why not straight-up bribery? Promise to fund WV straight into a fucking utopian paradise and let him block that. If he's really interested in helping his constituents instead of stroking his ego, he should take that deal no questions asked.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:22 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
This is a liberal mantra based largely off the Dem leadership intentionally twisting AOC's own common-sense election post-mortem for the party.
With what leverage?
WV is the 6th poorest state in the country, so why not straight-up bribery? Promise to fund WV straight into a fucking utopian paradise and let him block that. If he's really interested in helping his constituents instead of stroking his ego, he should take that deal no questions asked.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:22 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
"Fix voting" isn't a fifteen-minute honey-do. It requires as many people as possible to vote for (even imperfect) Dems, up and down the ballot, and to encourage other people to do the same.
The above two sentences only make sense if you genuinely believe "fix voting" is something that the aforementioned imperfect Dems would actually do, if they could, rather than simply something they pay lip service to while not actually prioritizing. If Manchin currently serves any useful, beneficial purpose to our nation as a whole, it's to serve as a cautionary example that just "vote Dem, any Dem" is not, in fact, the panacea for our democracy's ills.
posted by mstokes650 at 11:24 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
The above two sentences only make sense if you genuinely believe "fix voting" is something that the aforementioned imperfect Dems would actually do, if they could, rather than simply something they pay lip service to while not actually prioritizing. If Manchin currently serves any useful, beneficial purpose to our nation as a whole, it's to serve as a cautionary example that just "vote Dem, any Dem" is not, in fact, the panacea for our democracy's ills.
posted by mstokes650 at 11:24 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh, and if you're asking "but where will they get the money?" let me direct you to $740 billion of it right there for the taking.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:25 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:25 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Again: Manchin's purpose in the Senate right now is to keep Mitch McConnell from setting the agenda. Without Manchin, or a couple of other Democratic Senators who don't exist right now, the Democrats and their various constituencies get nothing. I do not see the logic in the argument that that's a favorable outcome.
posted by Gelatin at 11:27 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 11:27 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
DC statehood and eliminating the filibuster = not relying on Manchin anymore = Manchin being free to vote however he wants
I want DC statehood as much as you do, but this scenario can't happen because it's a Catch-22.
posted by armeowda at 11:29 AM on April 14, 2021 [17 favorites]
I want DC statehood as much as you do, but this scenario can't happen because it's a Catch-22.
Some progressives are pushing for the Senate to eliminate the filibuster, which would allow measures to advance with a simple majority. The advocacy group 51 for 51 argues that it is necessary to end the filibuster in order for D.C. to be admitted as a state — 51 votes for the 51st state.The systems are complex. We will get absolutely nowhere by pretending there's One Weird Trick! to all this.
"We're eager for H.R. 51 to have a full House vote next week, but we have our eyes on the Senate to finally correct this 200-plus year old stain on our democracy," 51 for 51 campaign director Stasha Rhodes said in a statement.
However, eliminating the filibuster would require support from all 50 Democrats in the Senate and Vice President Kamala Harris to cast the tie-breaking vote, and at least two Democrats have signaled that they will not vote to do so. Senator Joe Manchin said in an opinion piece last week that "there is no circumstance in which I will vote to eliminate or weaken the filibuster," all but dooming the prospects for bills such as H.R. 51 and H.R. 40 in the Senate.
posted by armeowda at 11:29 AM on April 14, 2021 [17 favorites]
Again: Manchin's purpose in the Senate right now is to keep Mitch McConnell from setting the agenda.
Again: you could cut a single measly percent from a single extremely bloated funding bill and have enough to hand Manchin an opportunity to have his name all over $4000 extra for not just voters, but every single living person in his state.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:33 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Again: you could cut a single measly percent from a single extremely bloated funding bill and have enough to hand Manchin an opportunity to have his name all over $4000 extra for not just voters, but every single living person in his state.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:33 AM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Again: Manchin's purpose in the Senate right now is to keep Mitch McConnell from setting the agenda. Without Manchin, or a couple of other Democratic Senators who don't exist right now, the Democrats and their various constituencies get nothing. I do not see the logic in the argument that that's a favorable outcome.
If the Democratic Party had thrown its lot behind progressive and inspiring Charles Booker rather than "I'm really a Republican, I promise" Amy McGrath, there's a good chance we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Same with Sara Gideon and her however many tens of millions of unspent campaign donations without any pressure by the party apparatus to run a better campaign.
It's pathological and institutional. There were Senate seats there for the taking and the status quo Democratic leadership didn't do what was necessary to take them.
posted by Gadarene at 11:35 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
If the Democratic Party had thrown its lot behind progressive and inspiring Charles Booker rather than "I'm really a Republican, I promise" Amy McGrath, there's a good chance we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Same with Sara Gideon and her however many tens of millions of unspent campaign donations without any pressure by the party apparatus to run a better campaign.
It's pathological and institutional. There were Senate seats there for the taking and the status quo Democratic leadership didn't do what was necessary to take them.
posted by Gadarene at 11:35 AM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Again: you could cut a single measly percent from a single extremely bloated funding bill and have enough to hand Manchin an opportunity to have his name all over $4000 extra for not just voters, but every single living person in his state.
Love this idea. But I think you're giving the GOP's dwindling base a lot of credit for being able to look out for its own interests.
Would aging, uneducated whites vote for him in four years after getting that money? Or would they pocket it and vote against him because it filled them with rage to know that Black people got a check too?
I'm not a betting woman but I know red-state Republicans. The doublethink is staggering.
posted by armeowda at 11:42 AM on April 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
Love this idea. But I think you're giving the GOP's dwindling base a lot of credit for being able to look out for its own interests.
Would aging, uneducated whites vote for him in four years after getting that money? Or would they pocket it and vote against him because it filled them with rage to know that Black people got a check too?
I'm not a betting woman but I know red-state Republicans. The doublethink is staggering.
posted by armeowda at 11:42 AM on April 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
The systems are complex. We will get absolutely nowhere by pretending there's One Weird Trick! to all this.
Ok, with respect to DC statehood: either Manchin enjoys the leverage of being the person that all bills go through, or his hands are tied in terms of supporting certain legislation because he doesn't want to vote for things that will be used against him back in West Virginia.
If it's the first thing, then he should be persuadable that, e.g., more stimulus money helps West Virginians disproportionately more than anyone else, and the Democrats should be doing their absolute best--including an all-out charm offensive by Biden--to show him that voting for Democratic priorities is in his rational interest.
If it's the second thing, then he should welcome the prospect of DC being made a state so that the pressure is off him and he can vote however he wants.
EITHER WAY, there should be more prospect of Democrats achieving their legislative priorities than currently exist. Given that Biden and the rest of the Democratic leadership was only lukewarm in pushing for a robust stimulus to begin with (starting with a $1.9 trillion package was a joke, given the rationale that they didn't want anything beginning with a 2), it's hard not to conclude that they don't actually particularly care about getting things done, as long as there's someone else to blame for why they didn't.
posted by Gadarene at 11:45 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Ok, with respect to DC statehood: either Manchin enjoys the leverage of being the person that all bills go through, or his hands are tied in terms of supporting certain legislation because he doesn't want to vote for things that will be used against him back in West Virginia.
If it's the first thing, then he should be persuadable that, e.g., more stimulus money helps West Virginians disproportionately more than anyone else, and the Democrats should be doing their absolute best--including an all-out charm offensive by Biden--to show him that voting for Democratic priorities is in his rational interest.
If it's the second thing, then he should welcome the prospect of DC being made a state so that the pressure is off him and he can vote however he wants.
EITHER WAY, there should be more prospect of Democrats achieving their legislative priorities than currently exist. Given that Biden and the rest of the Democratic leadership was only lukewarm in pushing for a robust stimulus to begin with (starting with a $1.9 trillion package was a joke, given the rationale that they didn't want anything beginning with a 2), it's hard not to conclude that they don't actually particularly care about getting things done, as long as there's someone else to blame for why they didn't.
posted by Gadarene at 11:45 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Would aging, uneducated whites vote for him in four years after getting that money? Or would they pocket it and vote against him because it filled them with rage to know that Black people got a check too?
Would it matter if we got what we needed out of Manchin before then? Wouldn't passing HR1 and giving DC statehood almost guarantee that there would be more Democrats winning because it would restrict Republican shenanigans in future elections?
So, like, no offense to Manchin or West Virginia, but to parrot Gardene, passing those things literally lets him off the hook. Sure, he might not win re-election, but we might still have a Democratic majority regardless.
So, would it really matter if they didn't re-elect Manchin if he already voted for the things that changed the voting landscape so drastically that the Republicans can't effectively fight back since most of their voting bloc is old and dying?
I don't get why people are worried about his career at all if he gets the votes in for things that put Republicans on the defensive when it comes to elections. Would it really matter if we lost him if we gained two Democrats elsewhere due to increased voting turnout?
Also, there's also the chance that the increased voting turnout spurred by HR1 could re-elect Manchin, too, ya know.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:50 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Would it matter if we got what we needed out of Manchin before then? Wouldn't passing HR1 and giving DC statehood almost guarantee that there would be more Democrats winning because it would restrict Republican shenanigans in future elections?
So, like, no offense to Manchin or West Virginia, but to parrot Gardene, passing those things literally lets him off the hook. Sure, he might not win re-election, but we might still have a Democratic majority regardless.
So, would it really matter if they didn't re-elect Manchin if he already voted for the things that changed the voting landscape so drastically that the Republicans can't effectively fight back since most of their voting bloc is old and dying?
I don't get why people are worried about his career at all if he gets the votes in for things that put Republicans on the defensive when it comes to elections. Would it really matter if we lost him if we gained two Democrats elsewhere due to increased voting turnout?
Also, there's also the chance that the increased voting turnout spurred by HR1 could re-elect Manchin, too, ya know.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:50 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Again, I promise that a majority of West Virginians polled would be in favor of a wealth tax on billionaires. A wealth tax on billionaires pays for a whole lot of good things for West Virginia and America at large. Why doesn't the White House persuade Manchin to support a wealth tax on billionaires that is both favored by, and will benefit, his constituents?
(Spoiler: it's because a wealth tax on billionaires is radioactive for the only constituency that most of the Democratic leadership genuinely cares about. And that ain't West Virginians.)
posted by Gadarene at 11:51 AM on April 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
(Spoiler: it's because a wealth tax on billionaires is radioactive for the only constituency that most of the Democratic leadership genuinely cares about. And that ain't West Virginians.)
posted by Gadarene at 11:51 AM on April 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Again: Manchin's purpose in the Senate right now is to keep Mitch McConnell from setting the agenda. Without Manchin, or a couple of other Democratic Senators who don't exist right now, the Democrats and their various constituencies get nothing. I do not see the logic in the argument that that's a favorable outcome.
I am unconvinced that "Joe Manchin blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation" is such a vastly preferable state of affairs to "Mitch McConnell blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation". For one thing, when it's Mitch doing it, the Democrats can at least blame Mitch, and use the Senate's utter dysfunction as a cudgel against the GOP nationwide. But if the Democrats accomplish nothing of importance and have only their own party to blame, they're gonna get (deservedly) owned in the next midterm election anyways, so you're just delaying McConnell's return to Majority Leader by a couple years and getting...what, exactly, to show for it? A few cabinet appointments? I genuinely might rather have McConnell's face on every news article about the do-nothing Senate, at least until McConnell's odious presence creates those couple other Democratic Senators that we will apparently need to accomplish anything.
If our democracy does not start genuinely delivering the goods for its people, our democracy will not survive. To his credit, Joe Biden seems to grasp this. To his vast detriment, Joe Manchin either does not, or simply does not care.
posted by mstokes650 at 11:51 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
I am unconvinced that "Joe Manchin blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation" is such a vastly preferable state of affairs to "Mitch McConnell blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation". For one thing, when it's Mitch doing it, the Democrats can at least blame Mitch, and use the Senate's utter dysfunction as a cudgel against the GOP nationwide. But if the Democrats accomplish nothing of importance and have only their own party to blame, they're gonna get (deservedly) owned in the next midterm election anyways, so you're just delaying McConnell's return to Majority Leader by a couple years and getting...what, exactly, to show for it? A few cabinet appointments? I genuinely might rather have McConnell's face on every news article about the do-nothing Senate, at least until McConnell's odious presence creates those couple other Democratic Senators that we will apparently need to accomplish anything.
If our democracy does not start genuinely delivering the goods for its people, our democracy will not survive. To his credit, Joe Biden seems to grasp this. To his vast detriment, Joe Manchin either does not, or simply does not care.
posted by mstokes650 at 11:51 AM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
Would aging, uneducated whites vote for him in four years after getting that money? Or would they pocket it and vote against him because it filled them with rage to know that Black people got a check too?
You do know that Manchin has successfully won two statewide elections in 11 years, right? How the hell do you think my proposal would make him less popular? And second, there are actually (slightly) more registered Democrats in WV than there are Republicans, so it seems that for every doublethink dumbass, there's at least one person to balance their dumb asses out.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:52 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
You do know that Manchin has successfully won two statewide elections in 11 years, right? How the hell do you think my proposal would make him less popular? And second, there are actually (slightly) more registered Democrats in WV than there are Republicans, so it seems that for every doublethink dumbass, there's at least one person to balance their dumb asses out.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:52 AM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I suppose I'd better read the articles, but . . . hasn't this been going on since the Southern Strategy?
posted by aspersioncast at 11:52 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 11:52 AM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments deleted for violating the Community Guidelines and Content Policy. Specifically: Please avoid light jokes or ironic replies in a serious discussion and cursing at someone else.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:56 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:56 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Spoiler: it's because a wealth tax on billionaires is radioactive for the only constituency that most of the Democratic leadership genuinely cares about. And that ain't West Virginians.
Well, some West Virginians. I'm thinking specifically the former CEO of the pharma corp that made lifesaving anti-anaphylactic shock medication grotesquely expensive, who also happens to be Joe Manchin's daughter.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:59 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well, some West Virginians. I'm thinking specifically the former CEO of the pharma corp that made lifesaving anti-anaphylactic shock medication grotesquely expensive, who also happens to be Joe Manchin's daughter.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:59 AM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
The people relying on unemployment extensions to survive, the children who will be lifted out of poverty, the kids who will no longer suffer brain damage from lead in their drinking water...I think they'll all beg to differ.
You mean the exact people Manchin is throwing under the bus?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:03 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
You mean the exact people Manchin is throwing under the bus?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:03 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Manchin's throwing people reliant on UE extensions under the bus by...voting to extend UE?
Well, yes, considering he's the entire reason the Dems made further concessions on extending UE.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:11 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, yes, considering he's the entire reason the Dems made further concessions on extending UE.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:11 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
the employment donation bubble chart in the article shows what we already knew: repub support isnt primarily contingent on income, but softer cultural factors. construction workers and plumbers (R donors) dont make the most or the least compared to D donors like retail clerks (less) and lawyers (more). the R donors are in professions that make in-between, but they are professions that generally dont require a 4 year university degree, which is something that (for all its faults) brings exposure to abstract and diverse ideas about life.
so this whole debate about bribing/threatening "moderate" D politicians to convince them to back progressive causes, based on the theory that their voters will then benefit and back more progressive candidates, is based on a faulty premise that economics is the primary thing for the plumber bubble. i dont think it is. it's A factor, sure, but not THE factor. the main factor is the traditionalist narrow mindset and distrust of foreign or unusual new ideas.
i think this "cultural" traditionalism issue obviously includes a whole fuckton of racism, which, fuck them. but it also includes other things that are enticing to red leaning voters in blue collar professions: de-emphasizing abstract or foreign sounding ideas and emphasizing stereotypes of working with one's hands and sounding practical. you may not always win, but you have to do what biden did: project an idealized BS image of americana.
it's stupid, but it's more effective than hoping promises of economic benefit will outweigh tribal allegiences, because they wont.
posted by wibari at 12:11 PM on April 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
so this whole debate about bribing/threatening "moderate" D politicians to convince them to back progressive causes, based on the theory that their voters will then benefit and back more progressive candidates, is based on a faulty premise that economics is the primary thing for the plumber bubble. i dont think it is. it's A factor, sure, but not THE factor. the main factor is the traditionalist narrow mindset and distrust of foreign or unusual new ideas.
i think this "cultural" traditionalism issue obviously includes a whole fuckton of racism, which, fuck them. but it also includes other things that are enticing to red leaning voters in blue collar professions: de-emphasizing abstract or foreign sounding ideas and emphasizing stereotypes of working with one's hands and sounding practical. you may not always win, but you have to do what biden did: project an idealized BS image of americana.
it's stupid, but it's more effective than hoping promises of economic benefit will outweigh tribal allegiences, because they wont.
posted by wibari at 12:11 PM on April 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
construction workers and plumbers (R donors) dont make the most or the least compared to D donors like retail clerks (less) and lawyers (more). the R donors are in professions that make in-between
[citation needed]
Generally speaking, polling shows that the more you earn, the more likely you are to be Republican. For example, in the 2020 election, those making $100k or more in household income went for Trump 54-42, whereas those making less than $100k voted almost exactly the reverse in support of Biden.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:21 PM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
[citation needed]
Generally speaking, polling shows that the more you earn, the more likely you are to be Republican. For example, in the 2020 election, those making $100k or more in household income went for Trump 54-42, whereas those making less than $100k voted almost exactly the reverse in support of Biden.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:21 PM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
"the kids who will no longer suffer brain damage from lead in their drinking water"
To be fair to those who have actually suffered from their pipes containing lead, it doesn't sound like they trust the city government enough to trust the new clean water system. Residents of Flint seem skeptical, and as such, it's questionable how many of them are actually using tap water.
From Politico in December 2020:
“People are weary,” Pauli said. “They wanted all of this to be fixed a long time ago, and they still don’t trust the institutions that are supposed to be protecting them, and they have some pretty good reasons for not doing so.”
Not saying their situation would be improved with McConnell blocking things, but I do think it's a stretch to act like we know how they feel about it, which is a much more complex subject than just those citizens feelings about Mitch McConnell or Joe Manchin. The ones who can afford to will likely keep their children from drinking tap water, which will inadvertently teach their children not to trust tap water, and by extension, not trust the government systems that do things like manage the water supply.
"it's stupid, but it's more effective than hoping promises of economic benefit will outweigh tribal allegiences, because they wont."
But what about the increased voting turnout? What about automatic voter registration? Like, it feels like we're looking at different charts. It feels like we're discounting more centrist voters who might actually like things like automatic voter registration and end up voting more often, and more blue, than the old dying block that is the GOP. The block of people that support the GOP is indeed mostly older and mostly white. For the first time, though, politically, the loss of that voting block for the GOP as they slowly die out genuinely represents a threat that will upend their ability to be a viable party. So they're throwing everything at the wall to stop that, and that includes more restrictions on voting. Shouldn't their fear about that tell us that we're actually in the position of power right now if we have the courage to take it?
I just don't get this, if we can get Manchin's votes and pass these things, don't all these issues become a moot point afterward? That the mass influx of blue voters created by increased voting access and a slow deconstruction of gerrymandering will just literally tank Republican chances so much that their voting block becomes completely irrelevant politically because they are finally, firmly outnumbered. Like, that's literally what the Republicans fear and why they are making this plan to become the "working people's party" because they KNOW they have literally nothing of value to offer anyone, and so they need to come up with some bullshit to hook people with. So, if THEY know that so much that it's scaring them into embracing the working class, maybe WE should be like "Oh, well, that means they're desperate" and get these votes through, because once we have Manchin's votes on these, it's almost a complete shoe-in for Democrats from then on. Like, don't the demographics firmly favor the Democrats the second HR1 is law and DC is a state. Aren't those literally the changes the Republicans fear so much that is driving them to this very strategy?? It feels like we're going in circles here.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:22 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
To be fair to those who have actually suffered from their pipes containing lead, it doesn't sound like they trust the city government enough to trust the new clean water system. Residents of Flint seem skeptical, and as such, it's questionable how many of them are actually using tap water.
From Politico in December 2020:
“People are weary,” Pauli said. “They wanted all of this to be fixed a long time ago, and they still don’t trust the institutions that are supposed to be protecting them, and they have some pretty good reasons for not doing so.”
Not saying their situation would be improved with McConnell blocking things, but I do think it's a stretch to act like we know how they feel about it, which is a much more complex subject than just those citizens feelings about Mitch McConnell or Joe Manchin. The ones who can afford to will likely keep their children from drinking tap water, which will inadvertently teach their children not to trust tap water, and by extension, not trust the government systems that do things like manage the water supply.
"it's stupid, but it's more effective than hoping promises of economic benefit will outweigh tribal allegiences, because they wont."
But what about the increased voting turnout? What about automatic voter registration? Like, it feels like we're looking at different charts. It feels like we're discounting more centrist voters who might actually like things like automatic voter registration and end up voting more often, and more blue, than the old dying block that is the GOP. The block of people that support the GOP is indeed mostly older and mostly white. For the first time, though, politically, the loss of that voting block for the GOP as they slowly die out genuinely represents a threat that will upend their ability to be a viable party. So they're throwing everything at the wall to stop that, and that includes more restrictions on voting. Shouldn't their fear about that tell us that we're actually in the position of power right now if we have the courage to take it?
I just don't get this, if we can get Manchin's votes and pass these things, don't all these issues become a moot point afterward? That the mass influx of blue voters created by increased voting access and a slow deconstruction of gerrymandering will just literally tank Republican chances so much that their voting block becomes completely irrelevant politically because they are finally, firmly outnumbered. Like, that's literally what the Republicans fear and why they are making this plan to become the "working people's party" because they KNOW they have literally nothing of value to offer anyone, and so they need to come up with some bullshit to hook people with. So, if THEY know that so much that it's scaring them into embracing the working class, maybe WE should be like "Oh, well, that means they're desperate" and get these votes through, because once we have Manchin's votes on these, it's almost a complete shoe-in for Democrats from then on. Like, don't the demographics firmly favor the Democrats the second HR1 is law and DC is a state. Aren't those literally the changes the Republicans fear so much that is driving them to this very strategy?? It feels like we're going in circles here.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:22 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Democratic Party and its focus on the interests of corporate donors and maintaining the status quo for the comfortable wealthy is terrible.
The constant attempts to undermine ACA show that Republicans can't get rid of popular programs that help people, once they are in place.
All Dems have to do is pass popular legislation: childcare and healthcare for all, cancel crushing tuition debt, grant statehood to DC and Puerto Rico, make the rich pay their fair share, fix crumbling infrastructure, etc. etc. etc. Once enacted, revocation would be immensely unpopular and therefore difficult.
Manchin is just one person, and the Democratic Party is a larger entity. That Dems do not fight very hard for — or at all, or even fight against — these very obvious wins does highlight, to a large and uncomfortable extent, what interests dictate how they execute on their platform.
It's easy for Republicans to come back and point out these problems to voters, to play on people's innate racism and grievances, even while Republicans work behind the scenes to make sure those voters' piece of the pie gets smaller.
It is also beneficial to the media, in that the Pyrrhic back-and-forth between the two parties generates billions in ad revenue, year over year, and so they have their own vested interest in making the sure the discussion stays away from implementing these obvious wins.
As an example, note that no paper-of-record has made much of any effort to show what the benefit of infrastructure improvements would be to raising the standard of living for Americans as a whole. No American media outlet seems to talk much about lead, arsenic, PFAS, and other contaminants in water supplies, for instance. You have to go outside the country to, say, the Grauniad for that kind of reporting. Rather, the US media's focus is on the drama of the conflict between parties, between Biden and legislators.
Even NPR is guilty of this, to some extent, by reinforcing usage of language like "working-class voters", as a placeholder for white people without college degrees (even if they qualify it within the piece). They also help reinforce the larger narrative, in those ways, keeping the discussion away from recognizing racial divides and grievances, which holds the country back.
Tl;dr. Basically, we need to get money out of politics. Corporations should not be legally recognized as people, the sole purpose of which is to legalize and normalize political grift. Republicans and Democrats alike would then have to legislate on behalf of constituents who are human beings, and not for funneling money up to private capital.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:27 PM on April 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
The constant attempts to undermine ACA show that Republicans can't get rid of popular programs that help people, once they are in place.
All Dems have to do is pass popular legislation: childcare and healthcare for all, cancel crushing tuition debt, grant statehood to DC and Puerto Rico, make the rich pay their fair share, fix crumbling infrastructure, etc. etc. etc. Once enacted, revocation would be immensely unpopular and therefore difficult.
Manchin is just one person, and the Democratic Party is a larger entity. That Dems do not fight very hard for — or at all, or even fight against — these very obvious wins does highlight, to a large and uncomfortable extent, what interests dictate how they execute on their platform.
It's easy for Republicans to come back and point out these problems to voters, to play on people's innate racism and grievances, even while Republicans work behind the scenes to make sure those voters' piece of the pie gets smaller.
It is also beneficial to the media, in that the Pyrrhic back-and-forth between the two parties generates billions in ad revenue, year over year, and so they have their own vested interest in making the sure the discussion stays away from implementing these obvious wins.
As an example, note that no paper-of-record has made much of any effort to show what the benefit of infrastructure improvements would be to raising the standard of living for Americans as a whole. No American media outlet seems to talk much about lead, arsenic, PFAS, and other contaminants in water supplies, for instance. You have to go outside the country to, say, the Grauniad for that kind of reporting. Rather, the US media's focus is on the drama of the conflict between parties, between Biden and legislators.
Even NPR is guilty of this, to some extent, by reinforcing usage of language like "working-class voters", as a placeholder for white people without college degrees (even if they qualify it within the piece). They also help reinforce the larger narrative, in those ways, keeping the discussion away from recognizing racial divides and grievances, which holds the country back.
Tl;dr. Basically, we need to get money out of politics. Corporations should not be legally recognized as people, the sole purpose of which is to legalize and normalize political grift. Republicans and Democrats alike would then have to legislate on behalf of constituents who are human beings, and not for funneling money up to private capital.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:27 PM on April 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
I am unconvinced that "Joe Manchin blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation" is such a vastly preferable state of affairs to "Mitch McConnell blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation".
That's fine and dandy, because that isn't the case. The Democrats passed the Covid relief bill with Manchin's vote and without a single Republican one.
Your error is in describing what Manchin does as "blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation." That isn't true, and it should be obvious it isn't true, because again, we've actually seen Mitch McConnell prevent literally any Democratic measure from reaching the Senate floor for so much as debate, even though his Republican senate could have just voted everything down. (Not to mention refusing to consider Merrick Garland's SCOUTS nomination...)
posted by Gelatin at 12:33 PM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
That's fine and dandy, because that isn't the case. The Democrats passed the Covid relief bill with Manchin's vote and without a single Republican one.
Your error is in describing what Manchin does as "blocks the Democrats from passing any major legislation." That isn't true, and it should be obvious it isn't true, because again, we've actually seen Mitch McConnell prevent literally any Democratic measure from reaching the Senate floor for so much as debate, even though his Republican senate could have just voted everything down. (Not to mention refusing to consider Merrick Garland's SCOUTS nomination...)
posted by Gelatin at 12:33 PM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
They sucked his brains out!:
Flagged as fantastic. Absolutely and thoroughly on point.
The influence of money in politics and in the political discourse is the single biggest thing standing between us and a genuinely better and healthier society. The Democratic donor class does so much damage to the boundaries of what we can achieve.
posted by Gadarene at 12:37 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Flagged as fantastic. Absolutely and thoroughly on point.
The influence of money in politics and in the political discourse is the single biggest thing standing between us and a genuinely better and healthier society. The Democratic donor class does so much damage to the boundaries of what we can achieve.
posted by Gadarene at 12:37 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
FWIW when I last checked Joe Manchin is also opposed to DC statehood, regardless of his position on the filibuster.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:38 PM on April 14, 2021
posted by aspersioncast at 12:38 PM on April 14, 2021
He isn't particularly enthusiastic about restoring voting rights either, unless it's "bipartisan."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not sure how a thread about the Republicans turned into a discussion of the Dems, but here goes...
If the Dems don't get rid of the fillibuster, there will be no voting rights reform.
If there's no voting rights reform, the Dems will lose the House and Senate in 2022.
And then they'll be right where they want to be.
Ineffective because of someone else rather than taking responsibility while they actually have power.
And then they'll lose the White House in 2024.
In short, fuck Joe Manchin and his selfish bullshit.
He is one senator representing a state of 1.8m people (38th in the country).
There are about as many people living on the island of Manhattan.
There are 4 cities with larger populations than his whole state.
There are 36 metropolitan areas with larger populations than his whole state.
Fuck him and his selfish bullshit.
posted by kokaku at 12:46 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
If the Dems don't get rid of the fillibuster, there will be no voting rights reform.
If there's no voting rights reform, the Dems will lose the House and Senate in 2022.
And then they'll be right where they want to be.
Ineffective because of someone else rather than taking responsibility while they actually have power.
And then they'll lose the White House in 2024.
In short, fuck Joe Manchin and his selfish bullshit.
He is one senator representing a state of 1.8m people (38th in the country).
There are about as many people living on the island of Manhattan.
There are 4 cities with larger populations than his whole state.
There are 36 metropolitan areas with larger populations than his whole state.
Fuck him and his selfish bullshit.
posted by kokaku at 12:46 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
The influence of money in politics and in the political discourse is the single biggest thing standing between us and a genuinely better and healthier society.
This is completely wrong. The single biggest thing standing between us and a genuinely better and healthier society is that nearly half the population continues to vote for the racist, sexist, homophobic, and fascist party. Money has too much influence in certain aspects of politics but it isn't at all the reason that those folks are voting the way they do.
posted by Justinian at 12:47 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is completely wrong. The single biggest thing standing between us and a genuinely better and healthier society is that nearly half the population continues to vote for the racist, sexist, homophobic, and fascist party. Money has too much influence in certain aspects of politics but it isn't at all the reason that those folks are voting the way they do.
posted by Justinian at 12:47 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
The anger at Manchin is so misdirected. He's arguably the single most important and valuable Democratic senator! Dude is literally the only Democrat who would be able to win an incredibly valuable Senate seat in West Virginia, and once he's no longer there it will be Republican for at least a generation. I guarantee you his replacement will in no way be an improvement.
A lot of this ire should really be directed at Sinema, who holds many of the same positions as Manchin despite being in a far bluer state. Other good targets for replacement include Feinstein and both senators from Delaware.
Also I can't imagine watching what happened in 2020 and coming to the conclusion that you were right all along and the way the Democrats can win big is to lean even harder left. At some point you have to look at the reality of the situation and reconsider your priors. "The results of the last election prove I was right about all my preferred political and strategic opinions" is supposed to be a sarcastic joke.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on April 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
A lot of this ire should really be directed at Sinema, who holds many of the same positions as Manchin despite being in a far bluer state. Other good targets for replacement include Feinstein and both senators from Delaware.
Also I can't imagine watching what happened in 2020 and coming to the conclusion that you were right all along and the way the Democrats can win big is to lean even harder left. At some point you have to look at the reality of the situation and reconsider your priors. "The results of the last election prove I was right about all my preferred political and strategic opinions" is supposed to be a sarcastic joke.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on April 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
Hard to characterize a covid stimulus bill as "major Democratic legislation" given a similar bill passed a year ago with a Republican senate and president.
Well here's your problem; the previous bill was not similar. The fact that the media focuses on the few aspects that were similar doesn't make it so. I would have assumed here we were able to look beyond the superficial media coverage.
Point out where in the previous bill a universal basic income for children was established? Where the subsidy caps for health insurance were entirely lifted? And so on.
posted by Justinian at 12:54 PM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
Well here's your problem; the previous bill was not similar. The fact that the media focuses on the few aspects that were similar doesn't make it so. I would have assumed here we were able to look beyond the superficial media coverage.
Point out where in the previous bill a universal basic income for children was established? Where the subsidy caps for health insurance were entirely lifted? And so on.
posted by Justinian at 12:54 PM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
Shouldn't their fear about that tell us that we're actually in the position of power right now if we have the courage to take it?
yeah, but i dont think it's about courage per se, as in marching on Manchin's mansion (heh) or blackmailing him with oppo or whatever... i think we just have to pander to R voters juuuuust long enough to get the voting reforms we need that will then make them just another bloc like any other (albeit with vast structural advantages in the senate and EC, so not really just an average bloc) as opposed to an egregiously powerful one.
posted by wibari at 12:54 PM on April 14, 2021
yeah, but i dont think it's about courage per se, as in marching on Manchin's mansion (heh) or blackmailing him with oppo or whatever... i think we just have to pander to R voters juuuuust long enough to get the voting reforms we need that will then make them just another bloc like any other (albeit with vast structural advantages in the senate and EC, so not really just an average bloc) as opposed to an egregiously powerful one.
posted by wibari at 12:54 PM on April 14, 2021
A lot of this ire should really be directed at Sinema, who holds many of the same positions as Manchin despite being in a far bluer state.
LOL. Whenever people who have been criticising Manchin try doing the same for Sinema, the very first comeback from liberals is "why aren't you angry at Manchin?" (regardless of whether or not you are, in fact, angry at Manchin) and then accusing her critics of being misogynists.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:00 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
LOL. Whenever people who have been criticising Manchin try doing the same for Sinema, the very first comeback from liberals is "why aren't you angry at Manchin?" (regardless of whether or not you are, in fact, angry at Manchin) and then accusing her critics of being misogynists.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:00 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
i think we just have to pander to R voters juuuuust long enough to get the voting reforms we need that will then make them just another bloc like any other
I'm a millennial who is decently educated, not massively in debt, but will still likely never be able to own a home. I'm on the older side and I regularly worry about dying in the streets in my old age, because I have no children. I've spent a significant chunk of destroying my body for the sake of working. I've mostly not been able to afford healthcare, and frankly, the ACA hasn't made it massively more affordable for me. I still avoid medical procedures because I can't afford them.
I've been being told to wait for the Democrats to win over those R voters since I first voted in 2000. My life has gotten materially worse during those twenty years. People who are older than me and who lives were worse before mine and have gotten worse during this time as well are tired of waiting.
We don't want to die on the streets waiting for the Democrats. Sorry. You're not selling people who have suffered two "once in a lifetime" financial crises, 9/11, and COVID all in their adult life that we just need to keep fucking waiting what the living flying fuck.
My life is a third of the way over and I've spent my life being told to wait on the Democrats to capture Republican votes before they actually start fucking helping people. Jesus fucking christ what a complete joke.
Guess I'll just die then! Fuck this. I'm out.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:01 PM on April 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
I'm a millennial who is decently educated, not massively in debt, but will still likely never be able to own a home. I'm on the older side and I regularly worry about dying in the streets in my old age, because I have no children. I've spent a significant chunk of destroying my body for the sake of working. I've mostly not been able to afford healthcare, and frankly, the ACA hasn't made it massively more affordable for me. I still avoid medical procedures because I can't afford them.
I've been being told to wait for the Democrats to win over those R voters since I first voted in 2000. My life has gotten materially worse during those twenty years. People who are older than me and who lives were worse before mine and have gotten worse during this time as well are tired of waiting.
We don't want to die on the streets waiting for the Democrats. Sorry. You're not selling people who have suffered two "once in a lifetime" financial crises, 9/11, and COVID all in their adult life that we just need to keep fucking waiting what the living flying fuck.
My life is a third of the way over and I've spent my life being told to wait on the Democrats to capture Republican votes before they actually start fucking helping people. Jesus fucking christ what a complete joke.
Guess I'll just die then! Fuck this. I'm out.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:01 PM on April 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
I feel like when you are at the point where there is no difference between the current senate and the last one, things have gone off the rails a little. The litany of horrific damage the senate did under GOP leadership speaks for itself. If you'd prefer that because the DC statehood bill is still in committee and Biden is still researching student loan forgiveness, then I don't really even know what to do about finding common ground. These wish list items haven't even been shot down yet, it's just April of year 1 and no visible progress has been made. It's a vastly frustrating situation but "fuck them, they are cowards" is definitely not the answer.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:02 PM on April 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:02 PM on April 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
So seriously, this is an FPP about Republican rebranding. Why is no one talking about that and instead arguing about Democrats?
posted by octothorpe at 1:05 PM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 1:05 PM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
So seriously, this is an FPP about Republican rebranding. Why is no one talking about that and instead arguing about Democrats?
Because, as has been the case for at least 20 years, the single greatest threat to the worldview and ideology of some folks on the left isn't actually the GOP slouching towards fascism but instead is the terrifying prospect of a successful liberal Presidency. That's an existential threat in a way the former is not.
posted by Justinian at 1:07 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Because, as has been the case for at least 20 years, the single greatest threat to the worldview and ideology of some folks on the left isn't actually the GOP slouching towards fascism but instead is the terrifying prospect of a successful liberal Presidency. That's an existential threat in a way the former is not.
posted by Justinian at 1:07 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
So seriously, this is an FPP about Republican rebranding. Why is no one talking about that and instead arguing about Democrats?
posted by octothorpe 6 minutes ago [+] [!]
Because the super majority of members of this website are Democrats. We can impact the behavior of leaders of our own party. We have little chance of impacting Republican strategists.
posted by latkes at 1:13 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe 6 minutes ago [+] [!]
Because the super majority of members of this website are Democrats. We can impact the behavior of leaders of our own party. We have little chance of impacting Republican strategists.
posted by latkes at 1:13 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
we know that "whites without a college degree" is not a growing group of voters. So, uh, that leaves people the Republican Party has nothing but hatred and contempt for.
Except what Republicans learned from the last election is that they can maintain this hatred and contempt and still make inroads with Latino and Hispanic and Black voters. Not a sea change, but juuuuuust enough that if they combine that with the continued focus on voter suppression they can maintain power. So they have no incentive to change.
By the way, the voter suppression is the real key--that is 90% of the deal. January 2021 in Georgia is a beautiful example of what happens if we fight like hell against that. Simply looking for the right mouth-words and the right policies is just not going to cut it. If a person can't vote for you it doesn't matter what your policy is, you're fucked.
posted by Anonymous at 1:25 PM on April 14, 2021
Except what Republicans learned from the last election is that they can maintain this hatred and contempt and still make inroads with Latino and Hispanic and Black voters. Not a sea change, but juuuuuust enough that if they combine that with the continued focus on voter suppression they can maintain power. So they have no incentive to change.
By the way, the voter suppression is the real key--that is 90% of the deal. January 2021 in Georgia is a beautiful example of what happens if we fight like hell against that. Simply looking for the right mouth-words and the right policies is just not going to cut it. If a person can't vote for you it doesn't matter what your policy is, you're fucked.
posted by Anonymous at 1:25 PM on April 14, 2021
terrifying prospect of a successful liberal Presidency. That's an existential threat in a way the former is not.
Come on, enough of that. This isn't the first thread you've dragged into "Here's what my opponents actually believe and furthermore here's why they're in league with the enemy" and how often has that helped things? Let people speak for themselves, you don't need to go inventing words to put in their mouths.
posted by CrystalDave at 1:26 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Come on, enough of that. This isn't the first thread you've dragged into "Here's what my opponents actually believe and furthermore here's why they're in league with the enemy" and how often has that helped things? Let people speak for themselves, you don't need to go inventing words to put in their mouths.
posted by CrystalDave at 1:26 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is completely wrong. The single biggest thing standing between us and a genuinely better and healthier society is that nearly half the population continues to vote for the racist, sexist, homophobic, and fascist party. Money has too much influence in certain aspects of politics but it isn't at all the reason that those folks are voting the way they do.
No, but it IS the reason that the left-most major party doesn't get much done to make society better and healthier when it has the political power to do so.
In a world where the Democrats are less ruled by corporate donations, we have more Democratic senators and a hell of a lot less economic suffering.
posted by Gadarene at 1:28 PM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
No, but it IS the reason that the left-most major party doesn't get much done to make society better and healthier when it has the political power to do so.
In a world where the Democrats are less ruled by corporate donations, we have more Democratic senators and a hell of a lot less economic suffering.
posted by Gadarene at 1:28 PM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Threaten Manchin with an investigation into Epi-Pen price fixing. There, now he's on your side.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:42 PM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:42 PM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Let people speak for themselves, you don't need to go inventing words to put in their mouths.
For myself, I personally would like to see a successful Biden presidency.
But I think that is not going to happen, however, until prominent Republicans are held responsible for their act of treason on January 6, 2021. If the discussion needs to focus on rebranding efforts, fine: A significant reason that Republicans are permitted to rebrand in the first place is that they were not, and are still not, held to account for their seditious actions. For lack of any real third-party solution, that is presently up to the Democratic Party. And that's down to NPR and other media outlets, too, which are not fulfilling their obligation to serve the public interest, by further helping reinforce the larger narrative and status quo that both parties are happy with.
And the other side of the Republican coin is that any lack of major wins by Biden will also come down to Democrats not exercising the power they were given by public mandate. Republicans can change their brand all they want, but at this point in time there are no more excuses: You have been given a majority. Implement the will of the people. Get infrastructure passed. Get healthcare for all implemented. Forgive tuition loans. Raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy.
Choosing to cede power to McConnell and centrist Democrats like Manchin and Sinema who are effectively colluding with McConnell is a choice. Choosing not to eliminate the filibuster is a willful choice. These are choices that hurt Biden's ability to get things done. If you really want a successful Biden presidency, stop making excuses on their behalf, and push the party to do what it was elected to do.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:47 PM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
For myself, I personally would like to see a successful Biden presidency.
But I think that is not going to happen, however, until prominent Republicans are held responsible for their act of treason on January 6, 2021. If the discussion needs to focus on rebranding efforts, fine: A significant reason that Republicans are permitted to rebrand in the first place is that they were not, and are still not, held to account for their seditious actions. For lack of any real third-party solution, that is presently up to the Democratic Party. And that's down to NPR and other media outlets, too, which are not fulfilling their obligation to serve the public interest, by further helping reinforce the larger narrative and status quo that both parties are happy with.
And the other side of the Republican coin is that any lack of major wins by Biden will also come down to Democrats not exercising the power they were given by public mandate. Republicans can change their brand all they want, but at this point in time there are no more excuses: You have been given a majority. Implement the will of the people. Get infrastructure passed. Get healthcare for all implemented. Forgive tuition loans. Raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy.
Choosing to cede power to McConnell and centrist Democrats like Manchin and Sinema who are effectively colluding with McConnell is a choice. Choosing not to eliminate the filibuster is a willful choice. These are choices that hurt Biden's ability to get things done. If you really want a successful Biden presidency, stop making excuses on their behalf, and push the party to do what it was elected to do.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:47 PM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Choosing to cede power to McConnell and centrist Democrats like Manchin and Sinema who are effectively colluding with McConnell is a choice.
McConnell has no particular power right now. Manchin and Sinema do, yes.
How exactly is "ceding" power to Manchin and Sinema a choice by any Democrats except Manchin and Sinema. To change the filibuster requires both of their cooperation, and as long as the filibuster is in place as currently implemented they hold veto power over any legislation.
What is your plan for changing that in a way that does not require their full cooperation?
posted by Justinian at 2:10 PM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
McConnell has no particular power right now. Manchin and Sinema do, yes.
How exactly is "ceding" power to Manchin and Sinema a choice by any Democrats except Manchin and Sinema. To change the filibuster requires both of their cooperation, and as long as the filibuster is in place as currently implemented they hold veto power over any legislation.
What is your plan for changing that in a way that does not require their full cooperation?
posted by Justinian at 2:10 PM on April 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
this strategy will never not work for the people who want it to work on them.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30
you gotta know when to hold em
posted by flabdablet at 2:33 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30
you gotta know when to hold em
posted by flabdablet at 2:33 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
You can't simultaneously argue that leftists fear a successful liberal presidency above all else and at the same time argue that Biden's hands are tied from doing even the bare-minimum self-preservation like "making sure his base can actually vote"! There is no possibility of a successful Biden presidency without somehow cutting through this Manchinian Knot.
posted by Pyry at 2:47 PM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Pyry at 2:47 PM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Whataboutism that "the Democrats suck too" is an act of voter discouragement. So is boasting about keeping your hands clean by sitting on them in the midterms and the locals. It might well bring about a revolution, but not the one you're dreaming of.
Oh, please. We're all (or at least 99%) democrats here. We all vote for them, we all donate to them, some of us even volunteer for them. I have personally given enough money and time to democrats to reserve the right to talk shit about them whenever I want and in fact find it imperative that we as dems build consensus that they are not doing enough as an opposition party, especially when the GOP beats them to a lane where dems should absolutely already be, and should have been in the entire time. Democrats are losing working people to republicans and this is a bad thing.
Literally no one here is advocating for "sitting on their hands" or sitting out midterms and local elections, we are only asking people within the party actually try to actually understand the reasons why tens of millions of people in this country do decide to do that. Voter suppression is real, no doubt, but we should stop pretending that every single one of the 80 million non-voters in 2020 are victims of voter suppression. Here's a fact: The average non-voter is statistically most likely to be younger, not white, and making less than 50k. The GOP is positioning themselves to scoop up these votes when we should be. Win like 2% of this bloc in the places we need and we can entrench power forever and do whatever we want with voting rights.
One thing I've noticed is, the country gives the GOP 4-8 years to dig a hole, fill it with their turds, and light said turd-pit on fire. Then as soon as Democrats get back in office, we want to know why that flaming turd-pit hasn't magically transformed into Disneyland overnight.
Ok but when the right wing wants Disneyland, they do actually get it overnight. It looks like a hole filled with flaming turds to you but to billionaires it is in fact Disneyland.
So clearly Disneyland can, in fact, be built in a night, it just only gets built overnight when Billionaires want it. When working class people - again, disproportionally represented by non-white people - need Disneyland, well fuck all yall you just have to wait because these things take work and these things take time and the moral arc of justice bends toward history and blah blah blah. It's tiring. It's not whataboutism, it's just refusing to accept the (very needed!) incremental advancements that democrats make as an excuse to avoid criticism of a party that can and should be doing so much more.
posted by windbox at 2:59 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Oh, please. We're all (or at least 99%) democrats here. We all vote for them, we all donate to them, some of us even volunteer for them. I have personally given enough money and time to democrats to reserve the right to talk shit about them whenever I want and in fact find it imperative that we as dems build consensus that they are not doing enough as an opposition party, especially when the GOP beats them to a lane where dems should absolutely already be, and should have been in the entire time. Democrats are losing working people to republicans and this is a bad thing.
Literally no one here is advocating for "sitting on their hands" or sitting out midterms and local elections, we are only asking people within the party actually try to actually understand the reasons why tens of millions of people in this country do decide to do that. Voter suppression is real, no doubt, but we should stop pretending that every single one of the 80 million non-voters in 2020 are victims of voter suppression. Here's a fact: The average non-voter is statistically most likely to be younger, not white, and making less than 50k. The GOP is positioning themselves to scoop up these votes when we should be. Win like 2% of this bloc in the places we need and we can entrench power forever and do whatever we want with voting rights.
One thing I've noticed is, the country gives the GOP 4-8 years to dig a hole, fill it with their turds, and light said turd-pit on fire. Then as soon as Democrats get back in office, we want to know why that flaming turd-pit hasn't magically transformed into Disneyland overnight.
Ok but when the right wing wants Disneyland, they do actually get it overnight. It looks like a hole filled with flaming turds to you but to billionaires it is in fact Disneyland.
So clearly Disneyland can, in fact, be built in a night, it just only gets built overnight when Billionaires want it. When working class people - again, disproportionally represented by non-white people - need Disneyland, well fuck all yall you just have to wait because these things take work and these things take time and the moral arc of justice bends toward history and blah blah blah. It's tiring. It's not whataboutism, it's just refusing to accept the (very needed!) incremental advancements that democrats make as an excuse to avoid criticism of a party that can and should be doing so much more.
posted by windbox at 2:59 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
You can't simultaneously argue that leftists fear a successful liberal presidency above all else and at the same time argue that Biden's hands are tied from doing even the bare-minimum self-preservation like "making sure his base can actually vote"!
Sure you can; I think that the basic structure of the american government, a legacy of white supremacy, makes it nearly impossible for Democrats of any stripe to successfully pass significant legislation. I don't think a "successful" Biden presidency is at all a given, though he's off to a very promising start.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sure you can; I think that the basic structure of the american government, a legacy of white supremacy, makes it nearly impossible for Democrats of any stripe to successfully pass significant legislation. I don't think a "successful" Biden presidency is at all a given, though he's off to a very promising start.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
The thing is, the GOP gets what they want right away when they take power because they are willing to destroy the system in order to accomplish their goals, and in fact it is one of them to destroy it. The Democrats don't have that goal and so they can't bypass the system to the same extent. When they do, as Obama did, it all gets undone ASAP. If we want real changes with staying power, it has to be be done the slow and tedious legislative way, which will be a slog, like the ACA was.
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:14 PM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:14 PM on April 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
If Democrats can't pass significant legislation, I find it difficult to fathom how they could have a successful presidency or successfully govern in any way. That might very well be the case, but then it needs to be pointed out, and the Democrats who are sabotaging the party by utilizing governmental structures that are "a legacy of white supremacy" need to be highlighted as well.
Otherwise why even bother? Democrats will lose because of GOP voter suppression and gerrymandering regardless of whether disaffected leftist straw-people show up to vote. At this point, the very ability of Democrats to be elected in sufficient numbers to hold the legislative and executive branches for any time periods over the next decade may hinge on whether they can pass laws at the federal level to counter GOP voter suppression at the state level.
As for the Republicans, I already know what I am going to get with them. They've been trying to appeal to the "working class" through cultural reaction for my entire life.
posted by eagles123 at 3:15 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Otherwise why even bother? Democrats will lose because of GOP voter suppression and gerrymandering regardless of whether disaffected leftist straw-people show up to vote. At this point, the very ability of Democrats to be elected in sufficient numbers to hold the legislative and executive branches for any time periods over the next decade may hinge on whether they can pass laws at the federal level to counter GOP voter suppression at the state level.
As for the Republicans, I already know what I am going to get with them. They've been trying to appeal to the "working class" through cultural reaction for my entire life.
posted by eagles123 at 3:15 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ok but when the right wing wants Disneyland, they do actually get it overnight. It looks like a hole filled with flaming turds to you but to billionaires it is in fact Disneyland.
So clearly Disneyland can, in fact, be built in a night, it just only gets built overnight when Billionaires want it.
Your overall points are well taken.
At the risk of beating my own beloved poetic analogy to death, however, flaming-turd Disneyland is by definition easier to build than establish-even-a-basic-social-safety-net-and-re-enfranchise-voters Disneyland. Destruction is easier than construction. Inaction is easier than action. Heckling is easier than doing the research and proposing solutions that can work in a bizarre and convoluted system.
...On preview, feloniusmonk said it better, without poo or Disney.
posted by armeowda at 3:22 PM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
So clearly Disneyland can, in fact, be built in a night, it just only gets built overnight when Billionaires want it.
Your overall points are well taken.
At the risk of beating my own beloved poetic analogy to death, however, flaming-turd Disneyland is by definition easier to build than establish-even-a-basic-social-safety-net-and-re-enfranchise-voters Disneyland. Destruction is easier than construction. Inaction is easier than action. Heckling is easier than doing the research and proposing solutions that can work in a bizarre and convoluted system.
...On preview, feloniusmonk said it better, without poo or Disney.
posted by armeowda at 3:22 PM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
*Did* the wall get stopped? They didn't get the full "And Mexico will pay for it" thing, but last I heard the USFG was still seizing property & continuing construction. Not sure how that measures on the disneyland scale, but.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:30 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by CrystalDave at 3:30 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
[citation needed]
Generally speaking, polling shows that the more you earn, the more likely you are to be Republican.
The comment you were replying to had a citation, though maybe it didn’t link it directly. And it was about the more complicated patterns you get looking at occupations at a lower level.
posted by atoxyl at 3:31 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Generally speaking, polling shows that the more you earn, the more likely you are to be Republican.
The comment you were replying to had a citation, though maybe it didn’t link it directly. And it was about the more complicated patterns you get looking at occupations at a lower level.
posted by atoxyl at 3:31 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
It’s true that donors as a whole appear to move politics to the right, but that’s largely by moving the Republican Party to the right. On most issues, Democratic Party donors appear to be more left wing than rank-and-file Democrats, and rank-and-file Democrats are in turn to the left of the median voter. As a result, donors’ main influence on Democrats is to move them to the left. Vox
Matt Y. appears to conflate small dollar donors to candidates like Sanders and Warren with big dollar donors to make his argument. The problem with that, as Matt probably knows, is that the smaller dollar donors donate with the express purpose of counteracting and in reaction to the big dollar donors. Those small dollar donors also aren't nearly as organized as wealthier donors and donors representing industry groups.
It's a clever way to erect a strawperson and thereby create an opportunity to Voxsplain - always easier when you get to make up both sides of the "argument".
Here is a study by actual political scientists:
Testing Theories of American Politics Elites Interest Groups and Average Citizens
What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
The small dollar donors donate mostly to try to counteract this trend.
posted by eagles123 at 3:35 PM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Matt Y. appears to conflate small dollar donors to candidates like Sanders and Warren with big dollar donors to make his argument. The problem with that, as Matt probably knows, is that the smaller dollar donors donate with the express purpose of counteracting and in reaction to the big dollar donors. Those small dollar donors also aren't nearly as organized as wealthier donors and donors representing industry groups.
It's a clever way to erect a strawperson and thereby create an opportunity to Voxsplain - always easier when you get to make up both sides of the "argument".
Here is a study by actual political scientists:
Testing Theories of American Politics Elites Interest Groups and Average Citizens
What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
The small dollar donors donate mostly to try to counteract this trend.
posted by eagles123 at 3:35 PM on April 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Also I can't imagine watching what happened in 2020 and coming to the conclusion that you were right all along and the way the Democrats can win big is to lean even harder left. At some point you have to look at the reality of the situation and reconsider your priors. "The results of the last election prove I was right about all my preferred political and strategic opinions" is supposed to be a sarcastic joke.
Well, one reason that everybody gets to come to their desired conclusion is that “left vs. right.” aggregates a whole bunch of stuff along different axes. If I were to say that 2020 politics show that the government giving people money is popular, would you say I was wrong? If I were to say that’s generally a left-wing thing to do, would you say I was wrong?
posted by atoxyl at 3:36 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, one reason that everybody gets to come to their desired conclusion is that “left vs. right.” aggregates a whole bunch of stuff along different axes. If I were to say that 2020 politics show that the government giving people money is popular, would you say I was wrong? If I were to say that’s generally a left-wing thing to do, would you say I was wrong?
posted by atoxyl at 3:36 PM on April 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
So seriously, this is an FPP about Republican rebranding. Why is no one talking about that and instead arguing about Democrats?
Because we all know this Republican "rebranding" is just more of the same horseshit? Second verse same as the first?
Like folks above have said, the ReThugs have been "branding" themselves as the "Regular Folks" party for decades now. It's just a matter of how obvious they wanted to be about who they considered "Regular Folks." Calling it "We're The Working Class Party" is just a logo redesign.
The only interesting thing about the article is that, IMO, the thing Rubin & the other R's are missing about how Trump pulled these mostly-white "working class" voters (bedsides the racism & sexism) is the sheer whiny aggreviedness of his tone - that grating sports-radio-caller-objecting-to-a-bad-ref-decision carping and moaning about how obvious it is that the "elites" are against you and it's not faaaaaiiiiiirrrr and I could do better, that pushes emotional buttons.
I just don't see any of the current crop of R powerhouse politicians having that same grinding strident emotional appeal, so I got serious doubts that much will come of this without Trump actually running.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:45 PM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Because we all know this Republican "rebranding" is just more of the same horseshit? Second verse same as the first?
Like folks above have said, the ReThugs have been "branding" themselves as the "Regular Folks" party for decades now. It's just a matter of how obvious they wanted to be about who they considered "Regular Folks." Calling it "We're The Working Class Party" is just a logo redesign.
The only interesting thing about the article is that, IMO, the thing Rubin & the other R's are missing about how Trump pulled these mostly-white "working class" voters (bedsides the racism & sexism) is the sheer whiny aggreviedness of his tone - that grating sports-radio-caller-objecting-to-a-bad-ref-decision carping and moaning about how obvious it is that the "elites" are against you and it's not faaaaaiiiiiirrrr and I could do better, that pushes emotional buttons.
I just don't see any of the current crop of R powerhouse politicians having that same grinding strident emotional appeal, so I got serious doubts that much will come of this without Trump actually running.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:45 PM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
eagles123, that's not separated into republicans and democrats. Here's a thread from Broockman confirming the same pattern (and citing additional research) - Democratic donors are significantly to the left of dem voters on social issues.
Broockman is an "actual political scientist", as are the authors of the studies cited by Yglesias.
Large-money Democratic donors, the kinds with lobbyists and fancy fundraising dinners and access and influence and such? Because that's sort of the point.
posted by Gadarene at 3:48 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Broockman is an "actual political scientist", as are the authors of the studies cited by Yglesias.
Large-money Democratic donors, the kinds with lobbyists and fancy fundraising dinners and access and influence and such? Because that's sort of the point.
posted by Gadarene at 3:48 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also, being to the left on social issues and being to the left on economic issues can be two very different things. To take the wealth tax for billionaires, for example, Democratic voters are OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of it. Is it your contention that big Democratic donors, the ones with access and influence, are even more in favor of it?
Big if true.
posted by Gadarene at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Big if true.
posted by Gadarene at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
eagles123, that's not separated into republicans and democrats. Here's a thread from Broockman confirming the same pattern (and citing additional research) - Democratic donors are significantly to the left of dem voters on social issues.
Broockman is an "actual political scientist", as are the authors of the studies cited by Yglesias.
The divide isn't over "social issues".
posted by eagles123 at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Broockman is an "actual political scientist", as are the authors of the studies cited by Yglesias.
The divide isn't over "social issues".
posted by eagles123 at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
If I were to say that 2020 politics show that the government giving people money is popular, would you say I was wrong? If I were to say that’s generally a left-wing thing to do, would you say I was wrong?
I thought there was a fair amount of evidence that right leaning governments give people a shitload of money. Just very specific people.
We're all (or at least 99%) democrats here.
Less than 99% of people here are Americans.
posted by biffa at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
I thought there was a fair amount of evidence that right leaning governments give people a shitload of money. Just very specific people.
We're all (or at least 99%) democrats here.
Less than 99% of people here are Americans.
posted by biffa at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
For me, much of the frustration stems from not only the way the Republicans behave and frame themselves, but also the assist they get from most of the American media, as well as the fact that the evil -- I'm not using that word lightly -- that they do is much easier to loose into the world to cause harm than anything any other group in America is trying to make happen.
We saw a nascent form of it in the Bush years and it emerged fully Wrong under Trump.
Republican in power: "I'm going to do this fucked up thing that will greatly harm the environment, core parts of the Democratic Party's constituency (especially women and minorities), and even some core parts of the Republican Party's alleged constituency (the military and "real" Americans, especially in the South and Midwest). You fuckers just try and stop me."
Senator Collins, various former Republican politicians and power-brokers, publicly: "We're concerned."
Senator Collins, various former Republican politicians and power-brokers, behind the scenes: Work to make it happen.
Democrats, publicly: "Nope, we'll stop it."
Some Democrats, behind the scenes: Work to make it happen.
Some Democrats, behind the scenes: "Wait, we actually can't stop it without a change to laws or procedures. We could maybe peel away Collins and a few others, but that's a longshot. But let's not state why we can't stop it, let's just let ourselves appear feckless rather than work the "refs" AKA the media."
Thing happens. The environment is harmed, lots of non-billionaires lose their jobs and maybe even their lives.
The media "neutrally" presents it merely as a "win" for the Republicans without presenting any information about the harm it's caused, even to the guys in diners they love to interview.
Eventually, lawsuits and a Dem or two manage to mitigate or overturn the Thing, but vast damage has already been done.
On the flip side, though, you get something that's in some ways more awful.
Democrat in Power: I'm going to do this thing that most of the nations with higher happiness scores and overall health/wealth of their populaces have been doing for decades, that will unquestionably save lives and improve the lot of millions of Americans, including major parts of the Republican constituency. That is, if and only if I have 100% support from everyone in the country. Otherwise, dunno, might kind of just water it down to thin gruel or kick it down the road to another Dem. "
Collins, Schumer, Manchin publicly: "I'm concerned."
Collins, Manchin, and a non-trivial number of Dems in the House, behind the scenes: Work to block it.
Some Democrats, publicly: Oh hell yeah.
Some Democrats, behind the scenes: "Wait, we actually can't make it happen without a change to laws or procedures. We could maybe peel away Collins and a few others, but that's a longshot. Anyway, let's not state why we can't make it happen, let's just let ourselves appear feckless rather than work the "refs" AKA the media."
Thing kinda happens, in a way that barely registers as a positive move compared to things other nations are doing but that does in fact improve the lives of a significant number of people, including some "real" Americans who have never voted for a Democrat.
The media "neutrally" presents it as a "loss" for the Democrats since it didn't immediately fix all problems at no cost and with no unforeseen negative consequences. They fail to interview the guys in the diners about the real, measurable ways their lives have been improved by even a de-fanged version of what the Dems wanted.
Eventually, lawsuits and a Dem or two manage to mitigate or overturn the Thing, and vast damage occurs. The Dems lose dozens of seats in Congress in the following midterm election.
Rinse and repeat.
posted by lord_wolf at 4:05 PM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
We saw a nascent form of it in the Bush years and it emerged fully Wrong under Trump.
Republican in power: "I'm going to do this fucked up thing that will greatly harm the environment, core parts of the Democratic Party's constituency (especially women and minorities), and even some core parts of the Republican Party's alleged constituency (the military and "real" Americans, especially in the South and Midwest). You fuckers just try and stop me."
Senator Collins, various former Republican politicians and power-brokers, publicly: "We're concerned."
Senator Collins, various former Republican politicians and power-brokers, behind the scenes: Work to make it happen.
Democrats, publicly: "Nope, we'll stop it."
Some Democrats, behind the scenes: Work to make it happen.
Some Democrats, behind the scenes: "Wait, we actually can't stop it without a change to laws or procedures. We could maybe peel away Collins and a few others, but that's a longshot. But let's not state why we can't stop it, let's just let ourselves appear feckless rather than work the "refs" AKA the media."
Thing happens. The environment is harmed, lots of non-billionaires lose their jobs and maybe even their lives.
The media "neutrally" presents it merely as a "win" for the Republicans without presenting any information about the harm it's caused, even to the guys in diners they love to interview.
Eventually, lawsuits and a Dem or two manage to mitigate or overturn the Thing, but vast damage has already been done.
On the flip side, though, you get something that's in some ways more awful.
Democrat in Power: I'm going to do this thing that most of the nations with higher happiness scores and overall health/wealth of their populaces have been doing for decades, that will unquestionably save lives and improve the lot of millions of Americans, including major parts of the Republican constituency. That is, if and only if I have 100% support from everyone in the country. Otherwise, dunno, might kind of just water it down to thin gruel or kick it down the road to another Dem. "
Collins, Schumer, Manchin publicly: "I'm concerned."
Collins, Manchin, and a non-trivial number of Dems in the House, behind the scenes: Work to block it.
Some Democrats, publicly: Oh hell yeah.
Some Democrats, behind the scenes: "Wait, we actually can't make it happen without a change to laws or procedures. We could maybe peel away Collins and a few others, but that's a longshot. Anyway, let's not state why we can't make it happen, let's just let ourselves appear feckless rather than work the "refs" AKA the media."
Thing kinda happens, in a way that barely registers as a positive move compared to things other nations are doing but that does in fact improve the lives of a significant number of people, including some "real" Americans who have never voted for a Democrat.
The media "neutrally" presents it as a "loss" for the Democrats since it didn't immediately fix all problems at no cost and with no unforeseen negative consequences. They fail to interview the guys in the diners about the real, measurable ways their lives have been improved by even a de-fanged version of what the Dems wanted.
Eventually, lawsuits and a Dem or two manage to mitigate or overturn the Thing, and vast damage occurs. The Dems lose dozens of seats in Congress in the following midterm election.
Rinse and repeat.
posted by lord_wolf at 4:05 PM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
it seems like the Republican party stands to gain by moving left on certain economic issues.
ie socialism of a nationalist bent.
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
ie socialism of a nationalist bent.
posted by Justinian at 4:39 PM on April 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
Take a look at the studies. Dem donors are fairly closely aligned with the electorate on taxing the rich and significantly to the left of the electorate on M4A, abortion, and same sex marriage.
Bringing this back to the subject of the FPP, Republican donors are to the right of the R electorate on economic issues but more closely in line with them on social issues. I think you can see the logic of the memo, then - it seems like the Republican party stands to gain by moving left on certain economic issues.
Your link goes to a twitter thread, which contains a link to the study that is behind a paywall. Here is a link where you can download a PDF of the study: Link to text of study
Reading the study, their sample included only donors who donated exclusively to one party or another: in other words, donors who gave exclusively to Democrats or donors who gave exclusively to Republicans. Of course they are going to be more partisan.
To test these hypotheses, we recruited partisan donors to our survey from a sampling frame
we defined as follows. We began with data from Bonica (2014) on the names and addresses of
all disclosed political donors in the US, updated for giving in 2016. We then selected all donors
who, since 2008, had given a disclosed donation to a campaign affiliated with one party but, at
any time since 1978, had never given a disclosed donation to a campaign affiliated with the other
party.
That excludes political spending by PACs and individuals that give to both parties, as well as groups that spend heavily to influence public opinion regarding political issues. Furthermore, it excludes political spending that changes sides because one party or another does something that displeases that donor group. As the memo in the FPP points out, Wall Street money, however he defines it, shifted from supporting Romney in 2012 to supporting Biden in 2020. Such donors would be excluded from this study.
The big take away from the study for me as it relates to the thread subject is that there is an underserved market for nativism that is out of step with both partisan donor classes. That is what Trump appealed to, and that is what the memo highlights as a way for the Republicans to appeal to the "working class".
posted by eagles123 at 5:15 PM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Bringing this back to the subject of the FPP, Republican donors are to the right of the R electorate on economic issues but more closely in line with them on social issues. I think you can see the logic of the memo, then - it seems like the Republican party stands to gain by moving left on certain economic issues.
Your link goes to a twitter thread, which contains a link to the study that is behind a paywall. Here is a link where you can download a PDF of the study: Link to text of study
Reading the study, their sample included only donors who donated exclusively to one party or another: in other words, donors who gave exclusively to Democrats or donors who gave exclusively to Republicans. Of course they are going to be more partisan.
To test these hypotheses, we recruited partisan donors to our survey from a sampling frame
we defined as follows. We began with data from Bonica (2014) on the names and addresses of
all disclosed political donors in the US, updated for giving in 2016. We then selected all donors
who, since 2008, had given a disclosed donation to a campaign affiliated with one party but, at
any time since 1978, had never given a disclosed donation to a campaign affiliated with the other
party.
That excludes political spending by PACs and individuals that give to both parties, as well as groups that spend heavily to influence public opinion regarding political issues. Furthermore, it excludes political spending that changes sides because one party or another does something that displeases that donor group. As the memo in the FPP points out, Wall Street money, however he defines it, shifted from supporting Romney in 2012 to supporting Biden in 2020. Such donors would be excluded from this study.
The big take away from the study for me as it relates to the thread subject is that there is an underserved market for nativism that is out of step with both partisan donor classes. That is what Trump appealed to, and that is what the memo highlights as a way for the Republicans to appeal to the "working class".
posted by eagles123 at 5:15 PM on April 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Take a look at the studies. Dem donors are fairly closely aligned with the electorate on taxing the rich and significantly to the left of the electorate on M4A, abortion, and same sex marriage.
I can't access the full article, and I see that they oversample "large" donors - well and good - but I'm less interested in the "left" politics of someone making the maximum $2800 contribution and more interested in "views of voters vs. views of donors to PACs and SuperPACs"
edit: on preview, what eagles123 said
posted by windbox at 5:17 PM on April 14, 2021
I can't access the full article, and I see that they oversample "large" donors - well and good - but I'm less interested in the "left" politics of someone making the maximum $2800 contribution and more interested in "views of voters vs. views of donors to PACs and SuperPACs"
edit: on preview, what eagles123 said
posted by windbox at 5:17 PM on April 14, 2021
Are rich Dems to the left of the party on economic issues? That's what people keep trying to talk about, not vague social questions.
posted by sagc at 6:16 PM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:16 PM on April 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Top clowns want to rebrand circus as zoo.
posted by axiom at 7:20 PM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by axiom at 7:20 PM on April 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
oh, no. They want to reinvent the big tent.I said it here a few times that the republicans will do this. It's already happening, take a look a Michigan GOP politics, it nasty and getting worse. Death threats, Traitor talk etc.They did it 1980, they could do it again.
I resent any talk of the Flint water crisis as a totally republican thing. It's a failure of Federal, state and local politics. No, the people of Flint don't trust the water and they don't trust politicans. That's why the people of Flint booed Hiliary at the debate, interrupted trump when he came to flint and believe me, Donald Trump on a bus on Dort highway was surreal.
posted by clavdivs at 7:53 PM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I resent any talk of the Flint water crisis as a totally republican thing. It's a failure of Federal, state and local politics. No, the people of Flint don't trust the water and they don't trust politicans. That's why the people of Flint booed Hiliary at the debate, interrupted trump when he came to flint and believe me, Donald Trump on a bus on Dort highway was surreal.
posted by clavdivs at 7:53 PM on April 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
The Wright-Rigby study uses survey data dating from the late 90's and early 2000's. It also looks at state level politics, rather than national politics, which are somewhat different. That being said, its results are somewhat interesting but not exactly surprising: I don't think its a surprise that state parties are more reflective of the preferences of upper income voters. The observation is kind of orthogonal to the issues people disturbed by Citizen's United worry about.
The link Maks-Solomon and Rigby study link goes to a paywall, but I found a link to a preprint here: Study pre-print
It's late, but it looks like they only look at 24 Senate roll call votes, the latest of which occurred in 2014. The political environment was somewhat different then, and if you look at the votes, there isn't much room to detect political differences raised post 2016. Above all, though, the study doesn't look at donors, so again its interesting but orthogonal to the concerns of those worried about, say, the gun or pharmaceutical lobbies superpacs ect.
posted by eagles123 at 8:46 PM on April 14, 2021
The link Maks-Solomon and Rigby study link goes to a paywall, but I found a link to a preprint here: Study pre-print
It's late, but it looks like they only look at 24 Senate roll call votes, the latest of which occurred in 2014. The political environment was somewhat different then, and if you look at the votes, there isn't much room to detect political differences raised post 2016. Above all, though, the study doesn't look at donors, so again its interesting but orthogonal to the concerns of those worried about, say, the gun or pharmaceutical lobbies superpacs ect.
posted by eagles123 at 8:46 PM on April 14, 2021
You can't claim to support, represent, or to have thought about the 'working class' and exclude black Americans and female workers, who are the working class.
So Turd moved black working people to vote for republicans 12% nationally over 6% nationally, and this is called analysis? Good luck with that analysis, with no error bars or differential diagnoses.
Americans are genuinely bad at defining what work is, but the industries broken out in the bubble diagram in that memo aren't graded by risk, effort, boredom, or unpleasantness, things that define work.
How's this for a differential:
Those bubbles are graded by authoritarianism in the workplace, which, in the USA, generally means misogyny, anti black racism, anti-brown racism, and islamophobia. Those industries, like construction, can be graded by the degree to which authoritarianism, misogyny, and corruption guide workplace decisions. Oil and Gas manufacturing is a bit dead since the last price implosion, but it is still big enough to have to be hidden in this analysis, it s big but also extremely geographically limited. Anyway
Your work culture defines your political imagination. If you work a job in such an authoritarian work culture, you are more likely to support the KKKandidate.
You can't say Shit like "child care firms and facilities and homes aren't infrastructure" and claim to know anything about working in the USA.
posted by eustatic at 10:44 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
So Turd moved black working people to vote for republicans 12% nationally over 6% nationally, and this is called analysis? Good luck with that analysis, with no error bars or differential diagnoses.
Americans are genuinely bad at defining what work is, but the industries broken out in the bubble diagram in that memo aren't graded by risk, effort, boredom, or unpleasantness, things that define work.
How's this for a differential:
Those bubbles are graded by authoritarianism in the workplace, which, in the USA, generally means misogyny, anti black racism, anti-brown racism, and islamophobia. Those industries, like construction, can be graded by the degree to which authoritarianism, misogyny, and corruption guide workplace decisions. Oil and Gas manufacturing is a bit dead since the last price implosion, but it is still big enough to have to be hidden in this analysis, it s big but also extremely geographically limited. Anyway
Your work culture defines your political imagination. If you work a job in such an authoritarian work culture, you are more likely to support the KKKandidate.
You can't say Shit like "child care firms and facilities and homes aren't infrastructure" and claim to know anything about working in the USA.
posted by eustatic at 10:44 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
I thought there was a fair amount of evidence that right leaning governments give people a shitload of money. Just very specific people.
Well that takes us to another set of debates about labels and ideological axes and variation across the globe and across history, I guess. But it’s fairly moot in terms of what I’m talking about - the directly redistributive policies that have been a big hit in the U.S. in the last year are quite broad-based!
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 PM on April 14, 2021
Well that takes us to another set of debates about labels and ideological axes and variation across the globe and across history, I guess. But it’s fairly moot in terms of what I’m talking about - the directly redistributive policies that have been a big hit in the U.S. in the last year are quite broad-based!
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 PM on April 14, 2021
Are rich Dems to the left of the party on economic issues? That's what people keep trying to talk about, not vague social questions.
Black people are not being murdered by cops because of "economic issues". Black women are not dying in childbirth because of "economic issues". Black men are not being sent to prison straight from school because of "economic issues". "Vague social questions" are incredibly important to many Americans who vote for the Democratic Party.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:23 AM on April 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
Black people are not being murdered by cops because of "economic issues". Black women are not dying in childbirth because of "economic issues". Black men are not being sent to prison straight from school because of "economic issues". "Vague social questions" are incredibly important to many Americans who vote for the Democratic Party.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:23 AM on April 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
Black people are not being murdered by cops because of "economic issues". Black women are not dying in childbirth because of "economic issues". Black men are not being sent to prison straight from school because of "economic issues".
I don’t like the “vague social questions” framing, either, but not one of these examples disentangles from “economic issues.”
posted by atoxyl at 4:48 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don’t like the “vague social questions” framing, either, but not one of these examples disentangles from “economic issues.”
posted by atoxyl at 4:48 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Soundguy99- DeSantis has that Trump tone down. I still maintain he thinks he's the 2024 R Presidential candidate. He might be right.
posted by wittgenstein at 4:59 AM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by wittgenstein at 4:59 AM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don’t like the “vague social questions” framing, either, but not one of these examples disentangles from “economic issues.”
These are things that disproportionately affect Black people. These same things are not happening to white people. That is not because of economics. It's because of white supremacy. A communist utopia that maintains white supremacy would continue to murder, imprison, and medically neglect Black people.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:14 AM on April 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
These are things that disproportionately affect Black people. These same things are not happening to white people. That is not because of economics. It's because of white supremacy. A communist utopia that maintains white supremacy would continue to murder, imprison, and medically neglect Black people.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:14 AM on April 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
And of course the same point would be true if we are talking about women, trans people, disabled people, or lots of other "vague social issues". People dismissed Elizabeth Warren's proposals for child care reforms right up until the pandemic hit and suddenly wealthy cis het white men also had to worry about child care. Now a lot of what she proposed was in the most recent COVID bill. Loudly proclaiming you're on the "economic left" while ignoring the actual things that affect people marginalized by our society is not a way to convince me that you're actually on the left.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:23 AM on April 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:23 AM on April 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
I don’t like the “vague social questions” framing, either, but not one of these examples disentangles from “economic issues.”
Why are people on the left so uncomfortable discussing racism and constantly try to change the subject to economics?
posted by octothorpe at 6:39 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why are people on the left so uncomfortable discussing racism and constantly try to change the subject to economics?
posted by octothorpe at 6:39 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
because the "people on the left" that you're referring to are white? :)
posted by kokaku at 7:15 AM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 7:15 AM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm a person on the left and I think talking about race is essential. But to talk about race - a made up construction with very real impact and meaning - we have to talk economics. The two are linked all the way back to the creation of race. An essential function of race from then to now is to maintain material (economic class) hierarchies.
The slave trade and policies of "Western expansion" created and reinforced the modern concept of race for the purpose of extracting labor, land and money from human beings and our natural world. Today, when we see cops killing Black people, many of these murders are directly tied both to raced ideologies about "crime" and to economic rules that are applied unevenly - due to interlocking issues of race and class. Why was George Floyd stopped by police? For an economic 'crime'. Why was Duante Wright pulled over? Expired tags - a 'crime' of not paying your registration on time.
Michele Alexander and Khalil Gibran Muhammad's books explore the ideology that links Blackness itself with criminality, creating and reinforcing and expanding a permanent Black underclass that is kept from freedom and also from access to the material (economic) necessities of survival.
What I'm trying to say is, that class is a material expression and consequence of race and racism. And race is a construction that is weaponized to maintain the economic order.
Regarding Democratic policies: I very much agree that politicians must support policies that specifically address racial inequality (along with other 'identity' based inequality like the wave of anti-trans laws). And by doing so, they will also help address the social/class disparities we are all living with.
posted by latkes at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
The slave trade and policies of "Western expansion" created and reinforced the modern concept of race for the purpose of extracting labor, land and money from human beings and our natural world. Today, when we see cops killing Black people, many of these murders are directly tied both to raced ideologies about "crime" and to economic rules that are applied unevenly - due to interlocking issues of race and class. Why was George Floyd stopped by police? For an economic 'crime'. Why was Duante Wright pulled over? Expired tags - a 'crime' of not paying your registration on time.
Michele Alexander and Khalil Gibran Muhammad's books explore the ideology that links Blackness itself with criminality, creating and reinforcing and expanding a permanent Black underclass that is kept from freedom and also from access to the material (economic) necessities of survival.
What I'm trying to say is, that class is a material expression and consequence of race and racism. And race is a construction that is weaponized to maintain the economic order.
Regarding Democratic policies: I very much agree that politicians must support policies that specifically address racial inequality (along with other 'identity' based inequality like the wave of anti-trans laws). And by doing so, they will also help address the social/class disparities we are all living with.
posted by latkes at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
What I find incredibly frustrating about these conversations is that the American 'leftists' that (some parts of) Metafilter like to punch at are for the most part not actual communists or anarchists but rather people who want the US to have the same kinds of social policies the rest of the world has had for fifty years. To see the mainstream policies of the rest of the world described as utopian fantasies is profoundly dispiriting. I wish there was a service where an American could be matched into a video call with someone elsewhere in the world and have to describe America's voting, tax, employment, education, and healthcare systems to that person, because I think Americans (especially well-off Americans) do not realize how far behind their country is in so very many respects, and do not understand that things could be better not merely hypothetically, but actually.
posted by Pyry at 8:07 AM on April 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Pyry at 8:07 AM on April 15, 2021 [10 favorites]
I think you just proved my point.
posted by octothorpe at 8:08 AM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 8:08 AM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think Americans (especially well-off Americans) do not realize how far behind their country is in so very many respects, and do not understand that things could be better not merely hypothetically, but actually.
I think many Americans (especially well-off Americans) do not realize how far behind countries that they think are so economically great are when it comes to things like immigration, racism, sexism, transphobia, antisemitism, and islamophobia.
I don't want to live in a country that basically will never allow immigrants to ever attain full citizenship or be treated as full members of society.
I don't want to live in a country that outlaws the wearing of hijabs and kippahs and other outward expressions of religions that aren't Christianity.
I don't want to live in a country that happens to have national healthcare but refuses to provide the proper healthcare to trans kids.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:39 AM on April 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think many Americans (especially well-off Americans) do not realize how far behind countries that they think are so economically great are when it comes to things like immigration, racism, sexism, transphobia, antisemitism, and islamophobia.
I don't want to live in a country that basically will never allow immigrants to ever attain full citizenship or be treated as full members of society.
I don't want to live in a country that outlaws the wearing of hijabs and kippahs and other outward expressions of religions that aren't Christianity.
I don't want to live in a country that happens to have national healthcare but refuses to provide the proper healthcare to trans kids.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:39 AM on April 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Sometimes, Metafilter really doesn't feel like an international site.
posted by sagc at 9:51 AM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 9:51 AM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Look at how few countries grant birthright citizenship. Not having citizenship status in the place where you are born and live is a problem that no amount of economic change and social safety net will solve, especially since that social safety net may not even be available to you.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:52 AM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:52 AM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't want to live in a country that happens to have national healthcare but refuses to provide the proper healthcare to trans kids.
Well, the collective American we is refusing to provide proper healthcare to trans kids (and further criminalizing attempting to do so) regardless, so... you're getting your wish? Congratulations?
posted by CrystalDave at 10:15 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, the collective American we is refusing to provide proper healthcare to trans kids (and further criminalizing attempting to do so) regardless, so... you're getting your wish? Congratulations?
posted by CrystalDave at 10:15 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
My point all along has been and remains that economic improvements are not sufficient if they leave people out. I know the US system is broken. But a system that has some economic improvements over ours but still discriminates against people is also broken, and I refuse to idealize other countries as so much better than the US when they treat immigrants, Jewish people, and trans people badly and leave them out of those very economic systems.
posted by hydropsyche at 10:23 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 10:23 AM on April 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
So seriously, this is an FPP about Republican rebranding. Why is no one talking about that and instead arguing about Democrats?
And this is why Dems don't get shit done. The GOP sucks it up and goes to the polls and votes for people who have the R next to their name and largely don't fracture the way the Dems do. It's a constant circular firing squad.
Trump got into office because a lot of R voters held their nose and voted for him. And because a non-trivial number of would-be D voters stayed home or cast protest votes because they just didn't like Hillary enough.
After four of the worst years in the U.S. in my lifetime, we just barely got T out the door and a big chunk of the left wants to throw stones at the Dems instead of reminding people all the shit that the Rs have and are still getting away with.
The Dems aren't perfect. Biden isn't perfect. But the GOP is outright evil, treasonous and one election away from sealing the deal so that they can't be booted out. For the love of all that's holy, I wish people would learn that there's a time and place for everything - and this isn't the time or place to tear down the Dems.
Sure, pressure your reps and senators and Biden to end the filibuster, get voting protections passed. Work your ass off to get Dems elected in the midterms whether they're AOC or another Manchin you can't stand. If there's a D next to their name, get them in office. When we have a more even playing field we can fight for the perfect instead of the good or merely OK. But right now we've got the merely OK vs. insurrectionists.
posted by jzb at 2:42 PM on April 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
And this is why Dems don't get shit done. The GOP sucks it up and goes to the polls and votes for people who have the R next to their name and largely don't fracture the way the Dems do. It's a constant circular firing squad.
Trump got into office because a lot of R voters held their nose and voted for him. And because a non-trivial number of would-be D voters stayed home or cast protest votes because they just didn't like Hillary enough.
After four of the worst years in the U.S. in my lifetime, we just barely got T out the door and a big chunk of the left wants to throw stones at the Dems instead of reminding people all the shit that the Rs have and are still getting away with.
The Dems aren't perfect. Biden isn't perfect. But the GOP is outright evil, treasonous and one election away from sealing the deal so that they can't be booted out. For the love of all that's holy, I wish people would learn that there's a time and place for everything - and this isn't the time or place to tear down the Dems.
Sure, pressure your reps and senators and Biden to end the filibuster, get voting protections passed. Work your ass off to get Dems elected in the midterms whether they're AOC or another Manchin you can't stand. If there's a D next to their name, get them in office. When we have a more even playing field we can fight for the perfect instead of the good or merely OK. But right now we've got the merely OK vs. insurrectionists.
posted by jzb at 2:42 PM on April 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
For the love of all that's holy, I wish people would learn that there's a time and place for everything - and this isn't the time or place to tear down the Dems.
Oh hey, we got an answer to that question/detente from the zombie-megathreads, of "Ok, if leftists wait-and-see on Biden until the election, its results, and Biden's inauguration; trusting in "we'll push elected Democrats left"; will we be able to get to midterms before starting back up on "Party unity, stop tearing down the Dems, it might lose us the election"?"
84 days, who had 84 days in the pool?
posted by CrystalDave at 3:14 PM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh hey, we got an answer to that question/detente from the zombie-megathreads, of "Ok, if leftists wait-and-see on Biden until the election, its results, and Biden's inauguration; trusting in "we'll push elected Democrats left"; will we be able to get to midterms before starting back up on "Party unity, stop tearing down the Dems, it might lose us the election"?"
84 days, who had 84 days in the pool?
posted by CrystalDave at 3:14 PM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
84 days, who had 84 days in the pool?
...Who is John Quincy Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 3:36 PM on April 15, 2021
...Who is John Quincy Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 3:36 PM on April 15, 2021
Oh hey, we got an answer to that question/detente from the zombie-megathreads, of "Ok, if leftists wait-and-see on Biden until the election, its results, and Biden's inauguration; trusting in "we'll push elected Democrats left"; will we be able to get to midterms before starting back up on "Party unity, stop tearing down the Dems, it might lose us the election"?"
Please. People were on the "Why hasn't Biden fixed everything yet IT'S BECAUSE HE'S THE ANTICHRIST" train on the day he took office.
Your snark doesn't make anything jzb wrote less true. Some of us enjoy having a country that isn't run by fascists. Not I-don't-like-them-so-I'm-calling-them-fascist fascists, literal fascists. We are currently at the point in the war where the enemy is an actual party of actual Nazis so yeah it is kind of grating to see the complaints that Manchin isn't playing nice with the AOC wing.
posted by Anonymous at 5:52 PM on April 15, 2021
Please. People were on the "Why hasn't Biden fixed everything yet IT'S BECAUSE HE'S THE ANTICHRIST" train on the day he took office.
Your snark doesn't make anything jzb wrote less true. Some of us enjoy having a country that isn't run by fascists. Not I-don't-like-them-so-I'm-calling-them-fascist fascists, literal fascists. We are currently at the point in the war where the enemy is an actual party of actual Nazis so yeah it is kind of grating to see the complaints that Manchin isn't playing nice with the AOC wing.
posted by Anonymous at 5:52 PM on April 15, 2021
I haven't read all the comments here but I wouldn't write this off so easily. Trump's share of the vote among Black men went up from 2016 to 2020. Same with his share of the vote among Hispanic and Asian men. He only lost a share to educated, suburban white voters.
Just because we know the Republican party are courting the white supremacists doesn't mean everyone sees it like that.
posted by subdee at 6:36 PM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Just because we know the Republican party are courting the white supremacists doesn't mean everyone sees it like that.
posted by subdee at 6:36 PM on April 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Anyway Democrats won't see their fortunes change until they start massively redistributing the wealth in such a way that the average voter sees their fortunes increasing. Until then, Joe Biden is gonna be seen as an agent of Chase Bank and plenty of people will happy to vote for the things they feel they can control - i.e. on Culture War lines against some other scapegoat group (women, the gays, the libs, trans people, etc).
posted by subdee at 6:40 PM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 6:40 PM on April 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
so yeah it is kind of grating to see the complaints that Manchin isn't playing nice with the AOC wing
Ok, but isn't the argument:
1. HR1 is critical for the Democrats to hold on to power
2. HR1 cannot pass without getting rid of the filibuster
3. Manchin is needed to get rid of the filibuster
4. Manchin won't do it
So it's not "Manchin isn't playing nice with AOC", it's "Manchin might be directly responsible for putting literal fascists back into power".
posted by Pyry at 6:53 PM on April 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
Ok, but isn't the argument:
1. HR1 is critical for the Democrats to hold on to power
2. HR1 cannot pass without getting rid of the filibuster
3. Manchin is needed to get rid of the filibuster
4. Manchin won't do it
So it's not "Manchin isn't playing nice with AOC", it's "Manchin might be directly responsible for putting literal fascists back into power".
posted by Pyry at 6:53 PM on April 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
And this isn't just some twitter maxists' beef with Manchin, this is a warning sounded by even professional centrists like the Atlantic:
If Democrats lose their slim majority in either congressional chamber next year, they will lose their ability to pass voting-rights reform. After that, the party could face a debilitating dynamic: Republicans could use their state-level power to continue limiting ballot access, which would make regaining control of the House or the Senate more difficult for Democrats—and thus prevent them from passing future national voting rules that override the exclusionary state laws.posted by Pyry at 7:45 PM on April 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
“There’s an increasing appreciation,” Democratic Representative John Sarbanes of Maryland, H.R. 1’s chief sponsor, told me, that “if we can’t get these changes in place in time for the 2022 midterm election, the efforts that Republicans are taking at the state level to lock in this voter-suppression regime” and maximize their advantage via partisan gerrymanders “will reshape the environment in a way that makes it impossible to get this, or frankly many other things, done.”
[...]
[Several activists and scholars who support the election-reform bills] are especially dumbfounded that Manchin and Sinema—and maybe others—would protect the filibuster on the grounds of encouraging bipartisan cooperation when Senate Republicans would be using it to shield red-state actions meant to entrench GOP control. “What’s the point of being a Democrat if you are just going to let Republicans systematically tilt the playing field so that Democrats can’t win?” Lee Drutman, a senior fellow at the centrist think tank New America, told me. “At that point, you should just be a Republican.”
After four of the worst years in the U.S. in my lifetime, we just barely got T out the door and a big chunk of the left wants to throw stones at the Dems instead of reminding people all the shit that the Rs have and are still getting away with.
The thing is this: Those of us who are shitting on the Democrats are doing it because we're convinced that if the Democrats don't fight harder, they will undoubtedly lose in the mid-terms, and then the Republicans will be free to shit up the country a lot more.
I don't understand how people are missing that point. Do people really think we don't give a shit about how evil the Republicans are? That's LITERALLY WHY WE ARE SO UPSET!!!
Because Democrats, like usual, are fucking half-assing everything, and they're going to let the fucking Republican chowderheads waltz right the fuck back into control, they'll vote in super restrictive voting laws, and then we'll never have a Democratic majority again, and all this talk about how we need to take it slowly and procedurally will be fucking pointless because without that majority, we're fucked in Republican fantasy-land forever.
The fact that this is read by other Democrats as "they just don't like Democrats" and not "they are absolutely shit-scared of the Republicans SO MUCH that they want the Democrats to fight a lot harder than they do" is honestly fucking disgusting and I'm pretty sick of the mods putting up with so many people putting words in our mouths and making justifications for their positions that frankly, are gaslighting people like me about my own positions.
Mods will remove comments for being rude to another user, but they won't remove comments where people literally talk out of their ass and put words in others people's mouths and that bullshit is fine? No, it's fucking not.
I vote for Democrats, I get to critique them, and not a single one of you can read my fucking mind and tell me that somehow I'm basically a Russian in disguise like I've been being told since fucking 2016. What the shit, Metafilter, be better than this. Don't let fucking people in this thread gaslight people over their own beliefs.
I support the Democrats, and I critique them and get angry at them, and none of you all are going to gaslight me into believing otherwise, even if you manage to gaslight others in this thread. (Which I assume is the actual point of the gaslighting in here, to make people believe leftists really hate Democrats and love Republicans.)
posted by deadaluspark at 7:48 AM on April 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
The thing is this: Those of us who are shitting on the Democrats are doing it because we're convinced that if the Democrats don't fight harder, they will undoubtedly lose in the mid-terms, and then the Republicans will be free to shit up the country a lot more.
I don't understand how people are missing that point. Do people really think we don't give a shit about how evil the Republicans are? That's LITERALLY WHY WE ARE SO UPSET!!!
Because Democrats, like usual, are fucking half-assing everything, and they're going to let the fucking Republican chowderheads waltz right the fuck back into control, they'll vote in super restrictive voting laws, and then we'll never have a Democratic majority again, and all this talk about how we need to take it slowly and procedurally will be fucking pointless because without that majority, we're fucked in Republican fantasy-land forever.
The fact that this is read by other Democrats as "they just don't like Democrats" and not "they are absolutely shit-scared of the Republicans SO MUCH that they want the Democrats to fight a lot harder than they do" is honestly fucking disgusting and I'm pretty sick of the mods putting up with so many people putting words in our mouths and making justifications for their positions that frankly, are gaslighting people like me about my own positions.
Mods will remove comments for being rude to another user, but they won't remove comments where people literally talk out of their ass and put words in others people's mouths and that bullshit is fine? No, it's fucking not.
I vote for Democrats, I get to critique them, and not a single one of you can read my fucking mind and tell me that somehow I'm basically a Russian in disguise like I've been being told since fucking 2016. What the shit, Metafilter, be better than this. Don't let fucking people in this thread gaslight people over their own beliefs.
I support the Democrats, and I critique them and get angry at them, and none of you all are going to gaslight me into believing otherwise, even if you manage to gaslight others in this thread. (Which I assume is the actual point of the gaslighting in here, to make people believe leftists really hate Democrats and love Republicans.)
posted by deadaluspark at 7:48 AM on April 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
Those of us who are shitting on the Democrats are doing it because we're convinced that if the Democrats don't fight harder, they will undoubtedly lose in the mid-terms, and then the Republicans will be free to shit up the country a lot more.
Right?!??!
"Here is a terrifying piece of internet content about how the republicans are shoring up their already pretty airtight scheme to lock in certain destruction of the democracy."
"OH SHIT PLEASE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES DO SOMETHING PLEASE DO SOMETHING PLEAAAASE DON'T DO WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO NAMELY APPOINT LARRY SUMMERS AND PUT CLARENCE THOMAS ON THE COURT AND IN GENERAL FILL ALL OPEN SPOTS WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING AND INSTEAD OF DOING SOMETHING TO STOP THIS WRECKAGE HELP THEM ENSURE THE WRECKAGE IS COMPLETE AND PERMANENT PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!"
"...ermgr this was about the republicans why are you dissing the democrats once again can't you see they're doing the best they can"
This is supposed to be a representative democracy. So if pressuring our elected representatives to fight for the survival of representative democracy isn't the solution to a problem where bad actors are trying to destroy it, then what the hell is the solution?
posted by Don Pepino at 9:34 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Right?!??!
"Here is a terrifying piece of internet content about how the republicans are shoring up their already pretty airtight scheme to lock in certain destruction of the democracy."
"OH SHIT PLEASE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES DO SOMETHING PLEASE DO SOMETHING PLEAAAASE DON'T DO WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO NAMELY APPOINT LARRY SUMMERS AND PUT CLARENCE THOMAS ON THE COURT AND IN GENERAL FILL ALL OPEN SPOTS WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING AND INSTEAD OF DOING SOMETHING TO STOP THIS WRECKAGE HELP THEM ENSURE THE WRECKAGE IS COMPLETE AND PERMANENT PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!"
"...ermgr this was about the republicans why are you dissing the democrats once again can't you see they're doing the best they can"
This is supposed to be a representative democracy. So if pressuring our elected representatives to fight for the survival of representative democracy isn't the solution to a problem where bad actors are trying to destroy it, then what the hell is the solution?
posted by Don Pepino at 9:34 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Joe Biden stands down at a critical juncture for police reform
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:33 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
At this pivotal moment when the nation is once again focused on the need to end these all-too-common occurrences, Biden seems uniquely positioned to take a leading role in brokering a compromise with Congress after his lifetime of work on crime and justice legislation.Just shooting black kids in the legs and vibes, man.
But instead, Biden exhibited caution this week when addressing the death of another Black man and backed away from his campaign promise to create a police reform commission, convinced by advocates -- according to White House officials -- that a commission would be counterproductive to the passage of the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act.
Biden's decision to stand down was a puzzling development given that there is no indication whatsoever that the Democratic legislation -- which would create a national registry of police misconduct, ban chokeholds and no-knock warrants, and overhaul qualified immunity protections for police officers -- has any chance in the 50-50 Senate after it passed the House in March without GOP support.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:33 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
But wait, there's more! Biden will keep Trump’s historically low cap on refugee admissions.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:35 AM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
President Biden in February committed to welcoming those fleeing persecution around the world, and to raising the cap of 15,000 refugees set by the prior administration. Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken notified Congress on Feb. 12 that the administration planned to allow up to 62,500 refugees to enter the country in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30.All it takes is his signature, so he didn't even have to worry about Congressional Dems fucking this up for him, but I guess he's just going to ignore it all by himself.
The reversal on Mr. Biden’s promise to welcome in thousands of families fleeing war and religious persecution signals the president’s hesitant approach to rebuilding an immigration system gutted by his successor. But the delay in officially designating the refugee admissions has already left hundreds of refugees cleared to travel to the United State stranded in camps around the world and infuriated resettlement agencies that accused Mr. Biden of breaking an earlier promise to restore the American reputation as a sanctuary for the oppressed.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:35 AM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
There's a thread about the refugee thing on the front page but tl;dr either there was a miscommunication or they walked back their position inside 6 hours because they claim they'll be raising the cap by mid May. Nobody seems to know what happened with this apparent SNAFU by the administration.
posted by Justinian at 6:07 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 6:07 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nobody knows what happened? The Biden administration responded to pressure from the left. Keep it up, all! Pressure works.
posted by latkes at 4:16 PM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 4:16 PM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Corporate tax rate in 2016: 36%
Joe Biden in 2021: We need to raise the corporate tax rate to 28%
Joe Manchin in 2021: Best I can do is 25%
The Democrats couldn't be trying harder to fail.
How the fuck does Biden expect to actually pay for "infrastructure week" without bleeding poor people dry with this horseshit?
posted by deadaluspark at 9:12 AM on April 20, 2021
Joe Biden in 2021: We need to raise the corporate tax rate to 28%
Joe Manchin in 2021: Best I can do is 25%
The Democrats couldn't be trying harder to fail.
How the fuck does Biden expect to actually pay for "infrastructure week" without bleeding poor people dry with this horseshit?
posted by deadaluspark at 9:12 AM on April 20, 2021
This Manchin guy just sucks. It seems like it would almost be better to just have him as a Republican.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:53 AM on April 21, 2021
posted by Meatbomb at 1:53 AM on April 21, 2021
New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez praised President Joe Biden and his administration Friday, sharing that she's been impressed with Biden's invitations to work and collaborate with progressive lawmakers.posted by octothorpe at 7:18 AM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
“One thing that I will say is that I do think that the Biden administration and President Biden have exceeded expectations that progressives had,” Ocasio-Cortez said during a virtual town hall. “I’ll be frank, I think a lot of us expected a lot more conservative administration.”
Ocasio-Cortez, a vocal member of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, also said Biden’s willingness to collaborate with more progressive members “really impressed” her, and despite areas of disagreements, the administration's conduct has been “not just in good faith but active incorporation of progressive legislation,” Ocasio-Cortez added.
“Biden announced that he plans to cut emissions by half by 2030,” Ocasio-Cortez said. “I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that two years ago it was almost unthinkable to think that Joe Biden would be making an announcement like that.”
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posted by The Card Cheat at 6:27 AM on April 14, 2021 [60 favorites]