Lost in Thought
April 24, 2021 1:17 PM Subscribe
As work subsumes leisure time, worldwide anxieties mount, and a pandemic reshapes comfort and togetherness, meditation has been touted as a panacea. There has been little mention of potential negative side effects, but a report in Harpers investigates the possible psychological risks.
The PLOS One study on meditation related challenges.
The PLOS One study on meditation related challenges.
I think two things about this:
(1) The adverse effects of meditation (and indeed many non-pharmaceutical mental health interventions, perhaps most notably CBT, given its ubiquity) are understudied and insufficiently discussed, largely because these interventions are cheap and acceptable ways of addressing a mental health crisis our society has very little interest in addressing and, in the case of meditation, a part of a poorly-regulated wellness industry which has sprung up to fill the gap left by properly considered responses. It's an important topic that needs thoughtful discussion.
(2) Framing an article on the topic around the utterly tragic, and hence terrifying and generally emotive, story of someone who experienced first episode psychosis (in which intensive meditation may or may not have played a causal role) and killed herself is pretty much the worst way to encourage such debate, and seems pretty exploitative to boot.
posted by howfar at 2:03 PM on April 24, 2021 [61 favorites]
(1) The adverse effects of meditation (and indeed many non-pharmaceutical mental health interventions, perhaps most notably CBT, given its ubiquity) are understudied and insufficiently discussed, largely because these interventions are cheap and acceptable ways of addressing a mental health crisis our society has very little interest in addressing and, in the case of meditation, a part of a poorly-regulated wellness industry which has sprung up to fill the gap left by properly considered responses. It's an important topic that needs thoughtful discussion.
(2) Framing an article on the topic around the utterly tragic, and hence terrifying and generally emotive, story of someone who experienced first episode psychosis (in which intensive meditation may or may not have played a causal role) and killed herself is pretty much the worst way to encourage such debate, and seems pretty exploitative to boot.
posted by howfar at 2:03 PM on April 24, 2021 [61 favorites]
Indeed.
I've had some negative effects from any attempts at meditation that go past about 10 minutes. The benefits sound appealing, but I remain wary of it for that reason.
posted by praemunire at 2:04 PM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've had some negative effects from any attempts at meditation that go past about 10 minutes. The benefits sound appealing, but I remain wary of it for that reason.
posted by praemunire at 2:04 PM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
Framing an article on the topic around the utterly tragic, and hence terrifying and generally emotive, story of someone who experienced first episode psychosis (in which intensive meditation may or may not have played a causal role) and killed herself is pretty much the worst way to encourage such debate, and seems pretty exploitative to boot.
I think running this kind of intensive, extended, and isolating spiritual experience requires that you be very sensitive to the possibility of negative effects, or even just negative coinciding events, something which the group she was with was unprepared to be. The retreat as described is more rigorous than the life of even most contemplative Christian orders, which require extended periods of preparation to enter.
posted by praemunire at 2:08 PM on April 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
I think running this kind of intensive, extended, and isolating spiritual experience requires that you be very sensitive to the possibility of negative effects, or even just negative coinciding events, something which the group she was with was unprepared to be. The retreat as described is more rigorous than the life of even most contemplative Christian orders, which require extended periods of preparation to enter.
posted by praemunire at 2:08 PM on April 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
From Cheetah House: "Below is a table of 59 categories of meditation-related experiences that can be distressing or associated with impairment in functioning. This list is based on the Varieties of Contemplative Experience research study, by Drs. Lindahl and Britton. Symptoms are organized and color-coded by 7 domains: affective, cognitive, somatic, perceptual, sense of self, conative, social."
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:32 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:32 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
howfar, could you expand on adverse effects of CBT?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:40 PM on April 24, 2021
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:40 PM on April 24, 2021
I have stopped trying to meditate after numerous times where it triggered extreme anxiety.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:41 PM on April 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:41 PM on April 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
I think running this kind of intensive, extended, and isolating spiritual experience requires that you be very sensitive to the possibility of negative effects, or even just negative coinciding events, something which the group she was with was unprepared to be
Yes. It annoyed me that this is an issue which the article really doesn't seem interested in at all. Instead of addressing what looks like irresponsible and negligent behaviour by the retreat, it uses this appalling story as a framing device for a conversation about meditation more generally. It's an extreme case in a number of ways (although I know that this sort irresponsible conduct by retreat operators is pretty common, so it's not a case that should never be reported on) and using it as the framing device for this article distracts and detracts from the needed conversation about the (real) risk of adverse effects from meditation as it is more commonly used in mental health and wellness contexts.
If one were going to write an article about the risks of exercise as a mental health intervention, it wouldn't be responsible to frame it around someone who, after a traumatic life event, had gone to a fitness boot camp and suffered significant negative mental health effects as a result. It would certainly be relevant to the piece, but making it the backbone of the article would be obviously unreasonable. There are risks to increasing one's level of exercise (although the research seems to suggest that most of those risks are physical, rather than, psychological, although physical injury can of course be a cause of psychological harm) but, for the vast majority of us, it's not that risk.
This seems like a classic example of really bad health journalism: focusing on what amounts to emotional titillation rather than doing the work of engaging the reader with the actual issue supposedly under discussion. If it were an article about the failure of retreats to have proper safeguards and support in place, the story would be an appropriate one to focus on, but that is emphatically not what this article purports to be.
posted by howfar at 2:45 PM on April 24, 2021 [26 favorites]
Yes. It annoyed me that this is an issue which the article really doesn't seem interested in at all. Instead of addressing what looks like irresponsible and negligent behaviour by the retreat, it uses this appalling story as a framing device for a conversation about meditation more generally. It's an extreme case in a number of ways (although I know that this sort irresponsible conduct by retreat operators is pretty common, so it's not a case that should never be reported on) and using it as the framing device for this article distracts and detracts from the needed conversation about the (real) risk of adverse effects from meditation as it is more commonly used in mental health and wellness contexts.
If one were going to write an article about the risks of exercise as a mental health intervention, it wouldn't be responsible to frame it around someone who, after a traumatic life event, had gone to a fitness boot camp and suffered significant negative mental health effects as a result. It would certainly be relevant to the piece, but making it the backbone of the article would be obviously unreasonable. There are risks to increasing one's level of exercise (although the research seems to suggest that most of those risks are physical, rather than, psychological, although physical injury can of course be a cause of psychological harm) but, for the vast majority of us, it's not that risk.
This seems like a classic example of really bad health journalism: focusing on what amounts to emotional titillation rather than doing the work of engaging the reader with the actual issue supposedly under discussion. If it were an article about the failure of retreats to have proper safeguards and support in place, the story would be an appropriate one to focus on, but that is emphatically not what this article purports to be.
posted by howfar at 2:45 PM on April 24, 2021 [26 favorites]
adverse effects of CBT
The regrettably small number of studies which exist indicate that negative effects, while relatively uncommon and typically (although not always) mild and/or transitory, do occur, and that these may be more prevalent and/or serious for certain patient groups. The problem isn't that CBT isn't a valuable intervention, of course, it's that CBT is widely used as both a panacea and (more troubling, I think) a form of medical gatekeeping, despite the inadequacy of the research into its potential risks. The systemic problems with the use of CBT aren't identical to those associated with meditation (largely because the economic issues differ between contexts) but there are some parallels that can usefully be drawn.
posted by howfar at 3:00 PM on April 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
The regrettably small number of studies which exist indicate that negative effects, while relatively uncommon and typically (although not always) mild and/or transitory, do occur, and that these may be more prevalent and/or serious for certain patient groups. The problem isn't that CBT isn't a valuable intervention, of course, it's that CBT is widely used as both a panacea and (more troubling, I think) a form of medical gatekeeping, despite the inadequacy of the research into its potential risks. The systemic problems with the use of CBT aren't identical to those associated with meditation (largely because the economic issues differ between contexts) but there are some parallels that can usefully be drawn.
posted by howfar at 3:00 PM on April 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
Before reading article: Well, crap, now I'm going to learn that my new-ish ten-minute-a-day meditation practice that seems to have been helping me through quarantine is somehow going to kill me.
After reading article: Ah. I see. Nope, I think I'm all right.
posted by gurple at 3:02 PM on April 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
After reading article: Ah. I see. Nope, I think I'm all right.
posted by gurple at 3:02 PM on April 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
There is a reason why meditation developed within spiritual traditions with supportive teachers and communities. Trying to break it out into a marketable stand-alone wellness practice is not a wise or safe course. In worst case scenarios, people have “enlightenment experiences” that lead them to
Found murderous doomsday cults (e.g. Shoko Asahara).
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:48 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Found murderous doomsday cults (e.g. Shoko Asahara).
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:48 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wait until Harpers finds out about The Monroe Institute.
posted by ryoshu at 4:55 PM on April 24, 2021
posted by ryoshu at 4:55 PM on April 24, 2021
Also related: this Vice article, and discussions of the "dark night" on meditation fora such as dharma overground. This is not really new info, and I actually am a bit shocked that more meditation teachers/guides aren't better prepared for it.
posted by inexorably_forward at 5:56 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by inexorably_forward at 5:56 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I understand that some people here are skeptical about the connection between her meditation retreat and her psychotic break. Having had my own bad experience with meditation, I am not skeptical at all. I was in a position to drop it quickly when I started having bad effects and it still took me a year to fully recover.
If I had been at a retreat where someone had said the cure to my issues was to continue meditating, based on my own crisis, I can absolutely see this happening. I beat myself up for quitting meditating. I thought that if I had just had the strength to stick it out it would have gotten me past my crisis. Because that is basically what you read in nearly every story about meditation.
Yes, the facility has issues. However, if you are meditating and start to have anxiety, a lot of resources out there say you should meditate more. It's not just this facility. It's the advice you get from a lot of meditation resources. And because of that advice I have beaten myself up for over a decade for quitting meditation when the going got tough. I won't anymore. When I read this, it scares me, because it could have been me.
posted by rednikki at 7:15 PM on April 24, 2021 [29 favorites]
If I had been at a retreat where someone had said the cure to my issues was to continue meditating, based on my own crisis, I can absolutely see this happening. I beat myself up for quitting meditating. I thought that if I had just had the strength to stick it out it would have gotten me past my crisis. Because that is basically what you read in nearly every story about meditation.
Yes, the facility has issues. However, if you are meditating and start to have anxiety, a lot of resources out there say you should meditate more. It's not just this facility. It's the advice you get from a lot of meditation resources. And because of that advice I have beaten myself up for over a decade for quitting meditation when the going got tough. I won't anymore. When I read this, it scares me, because it could have been me.
posted by rednikki at 7:15 PM on April 24, 2021 [29 favorites]
There is a way to teach meditation ethically that does not in any way promise anything. Meditation is something that should never be for sale. Anything can be harmful if it's being sold by someone who doesn't give a shit. If we're going to talk about whether an entire ancient practice is harmful it shouldn't be in the context of the version being peddled by some ex-businessman in the 50s. It's not exactly a fair trial. It's just a thing you can try to feel a little comfortable in your head. Anyone who's hyping it up as a cure all is trying to make money, not trying to help anyone or even qualified to help anyone.
posted by bleep at 7:48 PM on April 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 7:48 PM on April 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
It was quite irresponsible of the proponents of meditation to claim that their teachings were effective but never harmful; that the cure for a bad outcome was to engage in more meditation. There's a dictum that goes back to the 1500s: The dose makes the poison.
I suppose this applies to anything which affects the body or mind: if a thing has an effect, there must be some degree at which the effect which is harmful. It sounds as if the original practitioners understood this: it was only when meditation left the cloisters and became popularised that the happy-clappy good-for-what-ails-you brigade took over and ignored the guardrails. But we don't know what the original treatment was for people who lost themselves in meditation: it sounds to me as if the original proponents may have embraced those harmful effects, and even cherished them.
This all reminds me of Oliver Sacks' essay, "The Last Hippie [PDF]. In that case the changes experienced by Sacks' patient, Greg, had an organic cause: a large though benign brain tumour; but the way in which Greg's commune accepted his changed behaviour and incorporated them into their lives is striking. If Greg had died there I have no doubt that his coreligionists would have regarded this as evidence not of their neglect, but merely as the passing of a comparatively young person with great spiritual gifts. How many other young saints have died from unrecognised psychological or neurological symptoms? It's a dismaying thought.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:59 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I suppose this applies to anything which affects the body or mind: if a thing has an effect, there must be some degree at which the effect which is harmful. It sounds as if the original practitioners understood this: it was only when meditation left the cloisters and became popularised that the happy-clappy good-for-what-ails-you brigade took over and ignored the guardrails. But we don't know what the original treatment was for people who lost themselves in meditation: it sounds to me as if the original proponents may have embraced those harmful effects, and even cherished them.
This all reminds me of Oliver Sacks' essay, "The Last Hippie [PDF]. In that case the changes experienced by Sacks' patient, Greg, had an organic cause: a large though benign brain tumour; but the way in which Greg's commune accepted his changed behaviour and incorporated them into their lives is striking. If Greg had died there I have no doubt that his coreligionists would have regarded this as evidence not of their neglect, but merely as the passing of a comparatively young person with great spiritual gifts. How many other young saints have died from unrecognised psychological or neurological symptoms? It's a dismaying thought.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:59 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Agreed that the article is perhaps not the best, but I'm happy to see some discussion of possible downsides of meditation. I speak as somebody who experienced several full-scale dissociative episodes and other psychological issues during and after meditation (really minor amounts of meditation, like, we're talking a weekly yoga class here). I have since talked to several therapists and an academic expert in meditation, who all said that they agreed based on what happened that meditation was probably a causal factor in what happened.
In my case I had lots of characteristics that made me prone to it. First and most importantly, I have a tendency toward dissociation anyway, thanks to various childhood stuff and severe body dysphoria. Secondly, I am non-neurotypical in other ways. So probably most people would not have the reaction I did.
Still, I really wish I'd known about any of this before I tried meditation. Those episodes and their aftermath were very bad for me. I'll probably be in therapy for a long time dealing with them and the fallout they had.
posted by forza at 8:01 PM on April 24, 2021 [15 favorites]
In my case I had lots of characteristics that made me prone to it. First and most importantly, I have a tendency toward dissociation anyway, thanks to various childhood stuff and severe body dysphoria. Secondly, I am non-neurotypical in other ways. So probably most people would not have the reaction I did.
Still, I really wish I'd known about any of this before I tried meditation. Those episodes and their aftermath were very bad for me. I'll probably be in therapy for a long time dealing with them and the fallout they had.
posted by forza at 8:01 PM on April 24, 2021 [15 favorites]
The framing of the article is a tough one. On the one hand yes, it's bordering on the exploitative. But on the other hand, its emotional punch guarantees a wider audience. Contrast that with the PLOS paper that came out two years ago, that no-one's heard of.
Given that more people need to know about the potential downsides of meditation especially given its growing popularity, is the transgression justified?
posted by storybored at 8:11 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Given that more people need to know about the potential downsides of meditation especially given its growing popularity, is the transgression justified?
posted by storybored at 8:11 PM on April 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I’m curious about the focus of the article on meditation specifically. Certainly it’s something a large number of people do, and it also interests with a large number of people who May already be struggling and feeling unsettled, which is why they gravitated toward it. Yet is there some actual brain function issue that can be traced to meditation itself being identified here that we wouldn’t see in a similar control group from some other large swath of culture that attracts questing people or young people - church, fan culture, festivals, MLM, extreme endurance sports, alcohol and drugs? It may be that a certain number of people are at some point just going to be vulnerable to psychosis when under stress, no matter what pastime they’ve chosen.
posted by Miko at 8:34 PM on April 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Miko at 8:34 PM on April 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is reminding me of my friend who says meditation doesn't work for her. Not that extreme, mind you, though. To which I am all "if it doesn't work for you, don't do it."
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:52 PM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:52 PM on April 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
Exactly Miko. You can hurt yourself doing martial arts too if you get a bad teacher. That doesn't mean it makes sense to throw all of martial arts under the bus.
posted by bleep at 8:54 PM on April 24, 2021
posted by bleep at 8:54 PM on April 24, 2021
There are tons of therapeutic interventions where it's naive if not astonishingly negligent to believe that, if a little is good for you, a lot must be great, or that it's a cure-all.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:42 PM on April 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:42 PM on April 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
This makes me glad I haven't invested a lot of time into these practices, and worried for people I know who meditate regularly. Like you, forza, I already tend to dissociate and depersonalize, and my particular combination of anxiety, PTSD, and OCD can have some unfortunate effects. I experience a vague sense of unreality fairly frequently without the help of poor meditation practices. I'm glad this article exists, so I have a better sense of what I've been dabbling in and can make a more informed decision about these practices. It also makes me glad I discontinued the series of mindfulness sessions I used to run a few years ago. A lot of those principles are still useful, but I'm definitely not going to be meditating again. It seems too potentially fraught, given my risk factors.
posted by limeonaire at 10:45 PM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 10:45 PM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
(I was kind of there already when I found out some people I know used to be part of a transcendental meditation cult, and then so many things about them made sense.)
posted by limeonaire at 10:49 PM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 10:49 PM on April 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
More than ten years ago, SO and I went on a long-weekend Buddhist retreat [following Sir Thomas Beecham, I'll try anything but incest and morris-dancing]. It was an interesting mix of walking meditation, dharma talks, deep relaxation, ace vegetarian food, nobel silence from after dinner til after breakfast. One afternoon we were broken up into small groups for dharma discussion: sharing and talking about meditative practice. The youngest chap there asked "Who will ring the bell [to indicate the end of a med session] if I'm meditating alone". The monk facilitating our group replied "Get yourself forthwith into a Sangha, meditation is dangerous and you'll need, we all need, support from our community". He may not have used 'dangerous' but that was his sense. I thought that was super-cool and insightful.
Despite the incident from Harper's mag, I'd suggest that, like AZ vaccination, meditation is mostly harmless.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:34 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Despite the incident from Harper's mag, I'd suggest that, like AZ vaccination, meditation is mostly harmless.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:34 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
When I was about 12, a teacher made the whole class meditate. Pretty much everyone except me seemed to have a neutral-towards-positive experience; for me, it was as though the void that I hadn't realised was within me opened up and swallowed me whole in the space of about 30 minutes. It was a significant accelerator for the depression I'd already tentatively begun to experience at that age. It was as though I could finally feel and hear the emptiness inside me resonating.
The void, in retrospect, was the carefully repressed and (at that age) entirely unexamined trauma of my childhood, which at that point still had a good six or seven more years left to play out before I got free from the abusive home I grew up in. There was, of course, no space within my education to ever verbalise what I was experiencing; none of my teachers cared how miserable and controlled and downtrodden I was as long as my academic performance was solid, which it always was, no matter how profoundly depressed or actively suicidal I was. Every time I've tried it, meditation has held up a mirror to that void, and not in a way that helps me deal with its existence.
That classroom experience was 20 years ago, and it's been a thorn in my side ever since that meditation is always, always suggested as one of the first steps in getting a handle on one's interior troubles. All it's ever done for me is to play back the vast emptiness inside myself that should have been filled with developmentally-appropriate quantities of love, affection, comfort, respect and belonging that my parents were incapable of offering, modelling or cultivating.
It's helpful to have a space now where I can scream FUCK MEDITATION, FUCK MINDFULNESS, they have only ever exacerbated the heavy burdens I'm trying to carry with me through this cursed life. It's good stuff for a lot of people, but there are also plenty of us who are sick to the fucking teeth of being told it's the single most appropriate cure for everything that ails us.
posted by terretu at 1:23 AM on April 25, 2021 [43 favorites]
The void, in retrospect, was the carefully repressed and (at that age) entirely unexamined trauma of my childhood, which at that point still had a good six or seven more years left to play out before I got free from the abusive home I grew up in. There was, of course, no space within my education to ever verbalise what I was experiencing; none of my teachers cared how miserable and controlled and downtrodden I was as long as my academic performance was solid, which it always was, no matter how profoundly depressed or actively suicidal I was. Every time I've tried it, meditation has held up a mirror to that void, and not in a way that helps me deal with its existence.
That classroom experience was 20 years ago, and it's been a thorn in my side ever since that meditation is always, always suggested as one of the first steps in getting a handle on one's interior troubles. All it's ever done for me is to play back the vast emptiness inside myself that should have been filled with developmentally-appropriate quantities of love, affection, comfort, respect and belonging that my parents were incapable of offering, modelling or cultivating.
It's helpful to have a space now where I can scream FUCK MEDITATION, FUCK MINDFULNESS, they have only ever exacerbated the heavy burdens I'm trying to carry with me through this cursed life. It's good stuff for a lot of people, but there are also plenty of us who are sick to the fucking teeth of being told it's the single most appropriate cure for everything that ails us.
posted by terretu at 1:23 AM on April 25, 2021 [43 favorites]
terretu: exactly. My void was, well, a whole lot of shit really, from gender dysphoria to some terrible childhood stuff, but you exactly captured what it felt like meditation did for me: the void that I hadn't realised was within me opened up and swallowed me whole. And then I spent a long, long time absolutely drowning in it. Sometimes I still feel like I am.
One might argue that if I hadn't had that void and that trauma, then meditation wouldn't have caused these things to happen. Probably that's correct. But if meditation is touted as a way to heal psychological issues, if it exacerbates them in some cases that seems like a big problem, huh?
I'm trying hard not to be angry, but it's been a fucking terrible few years and while -- yes -- it's been really good to have realised the depth of my gender dysphoria and done something about it finally -- well, it sure was a damn painful way to have gotten here. And the aftermath of the meditation caused all sorts of problems in itself, things that I will probably never heal fully from, so yes I'm incredibly bitter.
posted by forza at 2:40 AM on April 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
One might argue that if I hadn't had that void and that trauma, then meditation wouldn't have caused these things to happen. Probably that's correct. But if meditation is touted as a way to heal psychological issues, if it exacerbates them in some cases that seems like a big problem, huh?
I'm trying hard not to be angry, but it's been a fucking terrible few years and while -- yes -- it's been really good to have realised the depth of my gender dysphoria and done something about it finally -- well, it sure was a damn painful way to have gotten here. And the aftermath of the meditation caused all sorts of problems in itself, things that I will probably never heal fully from, so yes I'm incredibly bitter.
posted by forza at 2:40 AM on April 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
Hmm... at 25 I was encouraged to meditate for various reasons: hypertension, migraines, stress, hypervigilance. I took myself to the TM Center in NYC and began the training program. I would go for instructive classes at night, after work. I was skeptical, as is my nature.
The required meditation sessions brought on incessant headaches -- which I was told were normal, my system "clearing " itself. Yeah, no. I found it impossible to comply with most of the instructions I was given, and was made to feel that I was somehow failing the program and the instructors.
I eventually finished the course and graduated with a secretive little ceremony with my peers -- we each had to bring a handkerchief, fruit and flowers, then were taken privately aside to be given our "secret" individual mantra, never to be uttered aloud or shared with another person.
Well unfortunately I hated the sound of my assigned mantra. It was jarring, I could not imagine sitting and repeating that two syllable sound to myself for the next 50 years, tottering towards enlightenment and lower BP with a sound like broken glass.
With trepidation I approached the instructor and explained my dilemma. You would have thought I had slapped the Buddha. I had just asked for a different two-syllable phrase. Hell rained down upon me.
I was given back my handkerchief, flowers and fruit. I already had a raging headache from the day's meditation. I was not refunded the price for the course. At the nearest street corner, I dumped my offering in the trash. I made up my own mantra, which was not far off in sound, but more pleasing. I dutifully tried to meditate twice daily. The headaches got worse, compounded by insomnia.
I went into therapy and discovered all manner of awful stuff. Not blaming the TM, just saying.
I haven't meditated in 40 years. Maybe that's best.
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 5:17 AM on April 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
The required meditation sessions brought on incessant headaches -- which I was told were normal, my system "clearing " itself. Yeah, no. I found it impossible to comply with most of the instructions I was given, and was made to feel that I was somehow failing the program and the instructors.
I eventually finished the course and graduated with a secretive little ceremony with my peers -- we each had to bring a handkerchief, fruit and flowers, then were taken privately aside to be given our "secret" individual mantra, never to be uttered aloud or shared with another person.
Well unfortunately I hated the sound of my assigned mantra. It was jarring, I could not imagine sitting and repeating that two syllable sound to myself for the next 50 years, tottering towards enlightenment and lower BP with a sound like broken glass.
With trepidation I approached the instructor and explained my dilemma. You would have thought I had slapped the Buddha. I had just asked for a different two-syllable phrase. Hell rained down upon me.
I was given back my handkerchief, flowers and fruit. I already had a raging headache from the day's meditation. I was not refunded the price for the course. At the nearest street corner, I dumped my offering in the trash. I made up my own mantra, which was not far off in sound, but more pleasing. I dutifully tried to meditate twice daily. The headaches got worse, compounded by insomnia.
I went into therapy and discovered all manner of awful stuff. Not blaming the TM, just saying.
I haven't meditated in 40 years. Maybe that's best.
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 5:17 AM on April 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
"Meditation is something that should never be for sale. Anything can be harmful if it's being sold by someone who doesn't give a shit. If we're going to talk about whether an entire ancient practice is harmful it shouldn't be in the context of the version being peddled by some ex-businessman in the 50s."
I really have to speak up here and say this is entirely unfair. First, Goenka's Vipassana organization is entirely volunteer based, and with the exception of several full-time adminstration staff, nobody (including the teachers) is paid anything for their work in it. You should learn more about a thing before you trash it.
Also, the implication that Goenka or anybody else "doesn't give a shit" is entirely unfounded. Between 1995 and 2003 or so I did six or seven 10-day retreats, as well as working as support staff at several others. I never encountered anyone who was motivated by money or uncaring.
No organization or practice should be above criticism, but at least try to make that criticism informed and based on fact.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 7:25 AM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
I really have to speak up here and say this is entirely unfair. First, Goenka's Vipassana organization is entirely volunteer based, and with the exception of several full-time adminstration staff, nobody (including the teachers) is paid anything for their work in it. You should learn more about a thing before you trash it.
Also, the implication that Goenka or anybody else "doesn't give a shit" is entirely unfounded. Between 1995 and 2003 or so I did six or seven 10-day retreats, as well as working as support staff at several others. I never encountered anyone who was motivated by money or uncaring.
No organization or practice should be above criticism, but at least try to make that criticism informed and based on fact.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 7:25 AM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
You could count as negative effects of CBT (or any other intervention, including meditation) the negative effects of depriving someone of treatment that is actually effective.
Also, there are so many different definitions and types of meditation. When I started, I thought I was supposed to go into some "deep" place that was normally inaccessible to me. Now, I view "meditation" as just being present. Yes, that is a radical change from being lost in one's own ego-based ruminations (i.e., "normal experience") but not some radically dangerous state. And, to take it further -- if we're going to look at the risks of meditating, don't we have to compare that to the risks of thinking our culturally-based consensual experience *is* equivalent to "reality"?
posted by DMelanogaster at 7:46 AM on April 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
Also, there are so many different definitions and types of meditation. When I started, I thought I was supposed to go into some "deep" place that was normally inaccessible to me. Now, I view "meditation" as just being present. Yes, that is a radical change from being lost in one's own ego-based ruminations (i.e., "normal experience") but not some radically dangerous state. And, to take it further -- if we're going to look at the risks of meditating, don't we have to compare that to the risks of thinking our culturally-based consensual experience *is* equivalent to "reality"?
posted by DMelanogaster at 7:46 AM on April 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
Well, it does seem to me that a practice that creates inner awareness is definitely likely to create awareness of misery, pain, and trauma that is there. I’m sure that’s quite painful and it’s a good argument for people employing this practice to have training in how to spot signs of intense reaction.
At the same time, trauma will out. It is often the disproportionate reaction to an otherwise everyday situation that is a first clue there is unresolved trauma. That can take the form of religious experience, or a drug experience, or an extreme reaction to a physical event or threat, or a new horizon crossed in intimate relationships, or even an unexpected sound, visual, or feeling.
I don’t mean to downplay the terror of the experience of becoming aware of trauma one had not acknowledged before. I lost a summer to that process myself and it is terrifying and miserable. I am just not sure meditation specifically can be blamed, when it was simply the trigger that exposed the trauma. The greater damage, it sounds like, can come from being in a non-therapeutic situation where the results could not be recognized and processed for what they were. We did meditation in high school, too, and in retrospect I don’t think we had the mental health infrastructure to justify it, however well intentioned.
posted by Miko at 8:57 AM on April 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
At the same time, trauma will out. It is often the disproportionate reaction to an otherwise everyday situation that is a first clue there is unresolved trauma. That can take the form of religious experience, or a drug experience, or an extreme reaction to a physical event or threat, or a new horizon crossed in intimate relationships, or even an unexpected sound, visual, or feeling.
I don’t mean to downplay the terror of the experience of becoming aware of trauma one had not acknowledged before. I lost a summer to that process myself and it is terrifying and miserable. I am just not sure meditation specifically can be blamed, when it was simply the trigger that exposed the trauma. The greater damage, it sounds like, can come from being in a non-therapeutic situation where the results could not be recognized and processed for what they were. We did meditation in high school, too, and in retrospect I don’t think we had the mental health infrastructure to justify it, however well intentioned.
posted by Miko at 8:57 AM on April 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Another note: context is super important, too - not every person or organization who uses meditation is using it for benign and evidence-based ends. There are a lot of cults that use it. The TM example is great - I seem to remember that TM was pretty exposed as a scheme, and that everyone’s precious individual mantra was actually a formula based on their age and gender or something like that. I’ve seen meditation used in cult recruiting and practice. It’s not regulated, and so anyone can claim to be doing it “right,” and that means there will be both amateurish and downright unscrupulous and manipulative practitioners. As with any modality, it is important to research your provider and establish a foundation of evidence-based and gut-based trust.
posted by Miko at 9:01 AM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Miko at 9:01 AM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
My experience with the specific kind of retreat "meagan" in this article participated in was that I was mostly ok during the day, mostly focused on the physical discomfort of sitting in the meditation posture for hours, but each evening, beginning with the evening videotape lecture from Goenka which involved some chanting and basically encouragement to keep doing the program no matter what obstacles might arise in the mind, I would start being overwhelmed with anxiety. The retreat I went to was in rural Washington state and the atmosphere and videotaped lectures had a kind of culty feel to them, which triggered an earlier kinda traumatic experience I had had with an LGAT group. So then the anxiety would keep me from sleeping well (another rule not mentioned in this article, I still remember the exact wording in the written instructions: "I vow to refrain from sleeping on high or luxurious bedding." The accommodations were thin mattresses on cots or box frames (almost like psych ward beds.) So, of course, lack of sleep just increases the intensity of the whole experience. By the evening of the third day I felt strongly like I was headed for a really bad place mentally, so I asked to speak to one of the teachers. I met with both the leading teachers of the retreat (a husband and wife team) and told them about the incredible anxiety I was having. They pressed back lightly, encouraging me to try to work through it, but when I continued to express concerns they were kind and helped me arrange a taxi to leave. So I left in the middle of the night feeling like a failure. But I'm just glad I had the strength to do what I needed to do for my mental safety. Its hard to go against the social pressure in these groups. Its totally possible that I could have had an experience like the girl in this story.
Having said that, since then, I've had some very good meditation experiences. It really depends on the setup. I attended a similar retreat run by a different organization in Massachusetts. It was ten days. Same meditation technique. Same amount of meditation per day. Same "noble silence" starting after dinner until the next day. But, no videotapes. No aggressive push to continue forward no matter what. Instead, there were lots of dharma talks putting the meditation practice into a solid Buddhist context. There was at least two personal interviews with the teachers per day so they could help you with whatever individual issues might be going on, frequent talks on "metta," aka loving-kindness as being a foundation for taking care of yourself and others. In other words, it was a much more gentle approach and not as strictly regimented/programmed as the Goenka retreats.
My personal feeling about meditation complications is it is a natural result of turning the attention inward, which is not something modern society encourages or has supports for. Our inner experience is like a constant stream of thoughts and emotions that we mostly don't notice or pay much attention to because our focus is taken up with so many external things normally. Throw yourself in a quite room with no distractions and start looking at this stream for hours on end, well, you are in for a few surprises. The first real insight I ever gained from meditation was : "Holy shit, it's a fucking madhouse in here! No, really, I'm not sane and I'm not sure anyone else is either. *This* is the kinda shit going on in my head, constantly, day in and day out?!?" That horrifying realization was the first step. The second insight came on much more slowly, which was the recognition that this thought/emotion stream is pretty much automatic and not something I needed to try to fix or control, and then, the further insight that that thought stream is not who I am. Its not my identity. Its simply a function of the mind and body, like breathing or the heartbeat. Its but a small sliver of the reality of what being human is about. That detachment from identification with thoughts and emotions is the first real taste of mental freedom.
So, long story short, I'm a big believer in the benefits of meditation, but technique and a safe supportive space with knowledgeable guides are really helpful and necessary.
posted by WhenInGnome at 9:23 AM on April 25, 2021 [17 favorites]
Having said that, since then, I've had some very good meditation experiences. It really depends on the setup. I attended a similar retreat run by a different organization in Massachusetts. It was ten days. Same meditation technique. Same amount of meditation per day. Same "noble silence" starting after dinner until the next day. But, no videotapes. No aggressive push to continue forward no matter what. Instead, there were lots of dharma talks putting the meditation practice into a solid Buddhist context. There was at least two personal interviews with the teachers per day so they could help you with whatever individual issues might be going on, frequent talks on "metta," aka loving-kindness as being a foundation for taking care of yourself and others. In other words, it was a much more gentle approach and not as strictly regimented/programmed as the Goenka retreats.
My personal feeling about meditation complications is it is a natural result of turning the attention inward, which is not something modern society encourages or has supports for. Our inner experience is like a constant stream of thoughts and emotions that we mostly don't notice or pay much attention to because our focus is taken up with so many external things normally. Throw yourself in a quite room with no distractions and start looking at this stream for hours on end, well, you are in for a few surprises. The first real insight I ever gained from meditation was : "Holy shit, it's a fucking madhouse in here! No, really, I'm not sane and I'm not sure anyone else is either. *This* is the kinda shit going on in my head, constantly, day in and day out?!?" That horrifying realization was the first step. The second insight came on much more slowly, which was the recognition that this thought/emotion stream is pretty much automatic and not something I needed to try to fix or control, and then, the further insight that that thought stream is not who I am. Its not my identity. Its simply a function of the mind and body, like breathing or the heartbeat. Its but a small sliver of the reality of what being human is about. That detachment from identification with thoughts and emotions is the first real taste of mental freedom.
So, long story short, I'm a big believer in the benefits of meditation, but technique and a safe supportive space with knowledgeable guides are really helpful and necessary.
posted by WhenInGnome at 9:23 AM on April 25, 2021 [17 favorites]
And to bring my long winded speil back around to the beginning, since having the meditation experiences I've had, I feel like mentally I'd be fine attending a Goenka style retreat because I now understand that all those thoughts that terrified me back then don't have any real substance or reality. But it took a long slow process to get there. Trying to force that insight onto an inexperienced meditator during a ten day meditation retreat is probably not a good idea for many people.
posted by WhenInGnome at 9:24 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by WhenInGnome at 9:24 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I wondered about posting since my experience was so different.
In my 20s I'd heard about different Meditation techniques so I just picked one and started practicing it (the watching the Breath one). No group, no organization. Start when I wanted, stop same.
Eventually I was able to slow down my thoughts and then stop them for various (short) periods. I do know that being forced to do long periods in the beginning would have been torture.
This discussion reminds me of others at the time that talked about the breakdowns you could get from drugs like LSD. Perhaps from the same reasons. If you take the controls off a severely repressed structure or a delicately balanced structure, bad things can happen. Don't know.
posted by aleph at 9:48 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
In my 20s I'd heard about different Meditation techniques so I just picked one and started practicing it (the watching the Breath one). No group, no organization. Start when I wanted, stop same.
Eventually I was able to slow down my thoughts and then stop them for various (short) periods. I do know that being forced to do long periods in the beginning would have been torture.
This discussion reminds me of others at the time that talked about the breakdowns you could get from drugs like LSD. Perhaps from the same reasons. If you take the controls off a severely repressed structure or a delicately balanced structure, bad things can happen. Don't know.
posted by aleph at 9:48 AM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Such a sad story. Some stray thoughts:
I sometimes wonder how people define their parameters for "meditation" for this kind of research (does "pranayama" count? Progressive muscle relaxation? Etc.).
I have attended several long meditation retreats over the past couple of decades & can attest that there are a lot of factors at play in tragic scenarios like the one described in this essay (in addition to the inherent risks of some contemplative practices) - group dynamics, leadership, communication lapses, public relations wanting to downplay or "manage internally" the fact of risks and casualties- to name a few.
Lastly, the quotes from the Dalai Llama in this piece are positioned in a way that definitely cast him in an uncharitable light. Like a hardass coach- "Just walk it off." Somehow, I imagine his thoughts on this matter - given time and space to elucidate them - to be much more nuanced. Psychosis is, after all, a very known risk of certain Buddhist meditation practices that cultivate awareness of one's essential emptiness. I do believe this is something often airbrushed out of for-fee American Buddhism (R).
posted by Bob Regular at 9:49 AM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I sometimes wonder how people define their parameters for "meditation" for this kind of research (does "pranayama" count? Progressive muscle relaxation? Etc.).
I have attended several long meditation retreats over the past couple of decades & can attest that there are a lot of factors at play in tragic scenarios like the one described in this essay (in addition to the inherent risks of some contemplative practices) - group dynamics, leadership, communication lapses, public relations wanting to downplay or "manage internally" the fact of risks and casualties- to name a few.
Lastly, the quotes from the Dalai Llama in this piece are positioned in a way that definitely cast him in an uncharitable light. Like a hardass coach- "Just walk it off." Somehow, I imagine his thoughts on this matter - given time and space to elucidate them - to be much more nuanced. Psychosis is, after all, a very known risk of certain Buddhist meditation practices that cultivate awareness of one's essential emptiness. I do believe this is something often airbrushed out of for-fee American Buddhism (R).
posted by Bob Regular at 9:49 AM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I read the whole article and this part is in my opinon very important:
I know of at least three people who had severe reactions to meditation, two via what's typically called 'internal' martial arts practice, and one via sitting at a zen center and then meditating alone for hours a day. In one case, the one who sat for hours started hearing, in their words 'voices in the forest calling out for me,' so he immediately terminated his practice. One quit their internal martial arts practice altogether, and continued on with their conventional martial arts career (a pretty distinguished career at that). One continued their internal martial arts training while seeking professional psychological help and discovered that they were carrying decades old trauma from childhood abuse.
For people who are interested in something more adjacent to the martial arts side (where the same risks exist in my opinion) there's a pretty good book about the social history of what's called qigong psychosis, that is, people who have a psychotic episode due to qigong (a Chinese martial arts adjacent physical practice), called Breathing Spaces by Nancy Chen, and it's worth reading.
To circle back to the quote from Britton's meditation teacher, I think it's important for folks to realize that in some Buddhist traditions, from my reading, the point of meditation is to empty a person out so that the order can insert a new personality -- which might be the personality of the teacher himself, or alternatively, a particular archetype, such as a warrior or other kind of servant to the clerisy. There are a couple books about this.
One is The Shadow of the Dalai Lama, written by Victor and Victoria Trimondi, a couple who went very deep into their Buddhist practice in one of the Tibetan sects, and didn't like what they found.
posted by wuwei at 10:07 AM on April 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
‘Why are you therapists always trying to make meditation a relaxation technique? That’s not what it’s there for. Everyone knows that if you go and meditate, and you meditate enough . . . you stop sleeping.’ ”I've come to view meditation (I've practiced on and off for some time) as a lot like anything else that can alter our perception of reality -- helpful under some circumstances, dangerous in others. When I meditated a lot (2x a day 30 minutes at a time or more) I slept less -- in fact,the decrease in sleep seemed directly correleated to the amount of meditation I was doing. A friend of mine experienced this also; in high school as she put it, she "abused meditation" to sleep less so she could study more. I personally found meditation to have extremely positive effects in motor learning, to the extent of transforming my ability to learn physical skills where I had previously struggled. That seemed to be mostly a function of increased awareness. It came with a lot of risks though, and I wouldn't recommend meditation to anyone. To paraphrase a teacher of mine, I don't recommend it to anyone because that's just easy talk on my part -- it's the other person who will have to do the work.
I know of at least three people who had severe reactions to meditation, two via what's typically called 'internal' martial arts practice, and one via sitting at a zen center and then meditating alone for hours a day. In one case, the one who sat for hours started hearing, in their words 'voices in the forest calling out for me,' so he immediately terminated his practice. One quit their internal martial arts practice altogether, and continued on with their conventional martial arts career (a pretty distinguished career at that). One continued their internal martial arts training while seeking professional psychological help and discovered that they were carrying decades old trauma from childhood abuse.
For people who are interested in something more adjacent to the martial arts side (where the same risks exist in my opinion) there's a pretty good book about the social history of what's called qigong psychosis, that is, people who have a psychotic episode due to qigong (a Chinese martial arts adjacent physical practice), called Breathing Spaces by Nancy Chen, and it's worth reading.
To circle back to the quote from Britton's meditation teacher, I think it's important for folks to realize that in some Buddhist traditions, from my reading, the point of meditation is to empty a person out so that the order can insert a new personality -- which might be the personality of the teacher himself, or alternatively, a particular archetype, such as a warrior or other kind of servant to the clerisy. There are a couple books about this.
One is The Shadow of the Dalai Lama, written by Victor and Victoria Trimondi, a couple who went very deep into their Buddhist practice in one of the Tibetan sects, and didn't like what they found.
In ancient societies (like that of Tibet), everything that happens in the everyday world — from acts of nature to major political events to quotidian occurrences — is the expression of transcendent powers and forces working behind the scenes. Mortals do not determine their own fates; rather they are instruments in the hands of “gods” and “demons”. If we wish to gain any understanding at all of the Dalai Lama’s “secular” politics, it must be derived from this atavistic perspective which permeates the traditional cultural legacy of Tibetan Buddhism. For the mysteries that he administers (in which the “gods” make their appearances) form the foundations of his political vision and decision making. State and religion, ritual and politics are inseparable for him.The other book in this vein is Shoes Outside the Door, by Michael Downing.
What, however, distinguishes a “politics of symbols” from “realpolitik”? Both are concerned with power, but the methods for achieving and maintaining power differ. In realpolitik we are dealing with facts that are both caused and manipulated by people. Here the protagonists are politicians, generals, CEOs, leaders of opinion, cultural luminaries, etc. The methods through which power is exercised include force, war, revolution, legal systems, money, rhetoric, propaganda, public discussions, and bribery.
In the symbolic political world, however, we encounter “supernatural” energy fields, the “gods” and “demons”. The secular protagonists in events are still human beings such as ecclesiastical dignitaries, priests, magicians, gurus, yogis, and shamans. But they all see themselves as servants of some type of superior divine will, or, transcending their humanity they themselves become “gods”, as in the case of the Dalai Lama. His exercise of power thus not only involves worldly techniques but also the manipulation of symbols in rituals and magic. For him, symbolic images and ritual acts are not simply signs or aesthetic acts but rather instruments with which to activate the gods and to influence people’s awareness. His political reality is determined by a “metaphysical detour” via the mysteries.
As the subtitle of the book goes, this is a story about desire, devotion and excess. It is a story of the desire and devotion of thousands of Americans who wanted Zen. It’s certainly a story of excess. Of not just Richard Baker’s excess (driving around in a BMW wearing antique Buddhist robes worth thousands of dollars) but also the excess of the Zen Center. While Downing’s book focuses on the Baker controversy and how the Zen Center handled it, the sub-text here is Zen in the West. Westerners, especially Americans, are entrepreneurial by nature and no Zen center was more so than the San Francisco Zen Center. It not only purchased Tassajara, a former hot springs resort 150 miles south of San Francisco, but also Green Gulch farm, opened a top-class vegetarian restaurant, Greens, in San Francisco, published books, and purchased extensive property around its city center where practitioners could stay. It also ordained Zen Buddhist priests. Baker-roshi alone ordained over sixty priests during his abbotship and in one day gave lay ordination to fifty-three practitioners. (p195) By the time he left in 1983 he had over four hundred dokusan students. There was nothing small about the San Francisco Zen Center.Neither of the books above are about money, but they are about power. And that's ultimately what caused me to take a step back from the various Buddhist traditions with which I engaged over the years, the sense that the congregations were considerably less democratic than the average Presbyterian congregation, and far less democratic than a Congregationalist or Unitarian church. I see a lot of what goes on in the Asian meditative religious traditions as carry over from feudal orders, and as my own politics have moved strongly in a libertarian socialist direction, I find myself increasingly unwilling to submit to feudal religious authority.
But all of this created great problems for the center. Financing such an extensive center meant that money was a constant problem. There is no history in the West of lay support for Buddhism. So business becomes an important part of the practice. Zen students become business men and women and workers. Zen slaves. Greens restaurant could be profitable because the Zen students who worked there were paid a pittance. And were told it was “work practice” and wanted it to believe it was “work practice”. Washing dishes, sweeping the floor, serving as waiters, chopping vegetables, working long, long hours. So long that zazen becomes difficult. If you don’t like working in a restaurant, you can become a farmer at Green Gulch. Which is pretty exciting — weeding, planting, harvesting. Outside, in the glorious California sun. Exciting for a weekend but how many urbanites want to make a life of it? But it’s “work practice”. They’re told it’s a Zen tradition, samu. Zen monasteries always had “work practice”, strived to be self-sufficient. So Zen Center students received monthly stipends (not wages) of $75 to $300 (in 1979) while Tassajara, where many worked, brought in $100,000. It is unlikely that any of Zen Center’s projects could have turned a profit if they had paid proper wages for the staff. However, this is not a story about money, but it could be.
posted by wuwei at 10:07 AM on April 25, 2021 [10 favorites]
WhenInGnome, No. What is a an appropriate and useful level of challenge for you, or even possibly for most people, isn't necessarily safe for everyone.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:06 PM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:06 PM on April 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
if we're going to look at the risks of meditating, don't we have to compare that to the risks of thinking our culturally-based consensual experience *is* equivalent to "reality"?
I'm inclined to agree, but informed consent is important, perhaps particularly in relation to matters of ontology and cosmology (a fair chunk of the terrible things in human history having occurred as a result of people ignoring this principle). One of the key problems with the medicalisation and commercialisation of Buddhist-derived meditation techniques is the promotion of meditation on the terms of a cultural model it is, I think, largely opposed to.
Regular meditative practice is widely promoted as a way to be happier, more content, etc, rather than as a way to recognise that these things do not hold the kind of value or significance we ascribe to them. While I tend to believe that most people would benefit, even according to our general cultural norms, from working towards accepting the reality about human striving and its objects (they would, as a byproduct of this work, tend to be more content, or at least less discontented with discontent) I think there are some genuine ethical and practical questions about promoting that work as a path towards happiness as our society currently thinks of it.
Mindfulness meditation is, in many senses, just the act of facing reality (whatever it may be). But our societies are frightened of reality. We don't want reality. We want to be able to succeed, or enjoy or earn ourselves out of the sting of death, to live a life that makes us unafraid of dying, to die a "good death". And meditation is often promoted as a means of achieving this, rather than of reconciling with the fact that we sure as shit won't. That is, I think, a troubling disconnect. It doesn't mean people shouldn't teach, promote or practice meditation, but it does raise questions about whether a spiritual and religious practice is best promoted on materialist and consumerist terms.
posted by howfar at 2:01 PM on April 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm inclined to agree, but informed consent is important, perhaps particularly in relation to matters of ontology and cosmology (a fair chunk of the terrible things in human history having occurred as a result of people ignoring this principle). One of the key problems with the medicalisation and commercialisation of Buddhist-derived meditation techniques is the promotion of meditation on the terms of a cultural model it is, I think, largely opposed to.
Regular meditative practice is widely promoted as a way to be happier, more content, etc, rather than as a way to recognise that these things do not hold the kind of value or significance we ascribe to them. While I tend to believe that most people would benefit, even according to our general cultural norms, from working towards accepting the reality about human striving and its objects (they would, as a byproduct of this work, tend to be more content, or at least less discontented with discontent) I think there are some genuine ethical and practical questions about promoting that work as a path towards happiness as our society currently thinks of it.
Mindfulness meditation is, in many senses, just the act of facing reality (whatever it may be). But our societies are frightened of reality. We don't want reality. We want to be able to succeed, or enjoy or earn ourselves out of the sting of death, to live a life that makes us unafraid of dying, to die a "good death". And meditation is often promoted as a means of achieving this, rather than of reconciling with the fact that we sure as shit won't. That is, I think, a troubling disconnect. It doesn't mean people shouldn't teach, promote or practice meditation, but it does raise questions about whether a spiritual and religious practice is best promoted on materialist and consumerist terms.
posted by howfar at 2:01 PM on April 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
I have PTSD and my therapist and I, along with. Buddhist friend (who also has PTSD but of the war veteran type) have experimented with it.
Guided meditations? Bad news. I immediately broke into tears and sobbing the first time we did one in therapy. Counted breath meditation? Much more useful. But the latter includes/requires being present in my body - not necessarily a body scan type but being lightly aware, as it goes, of my breath and what my body is doing.
We never go over ten minutes. And im prone to disassociation so I know when I've gone from "lightly aware and accepting" to "not here". And it is cemented in the religious practice of Buddhism. Separating the method of mediation from the spiritual element leaves you with no grounding for what is going on.
Without the appropriate context, it just makes me think of all the warnings about "open minds" that just leave space for something unintended. The practice is not meant to be universal, context less, and suitable for everything and everyone in the same way.
Sleeping less while meditating is definitely a thing and it's something my therapist and I have discussed in relation to my chronic insomnia. In that there are times I am not sleeping and not going to sleep but I need to function. Meditation might help me settle my thoughts and body enough to sleep but it might also give me enough peace to just get through the next day.
Same with mindfulness. The perpetual "watched and watching" element of gender, and motherhood, where I am supposed to be On and Responsive and always monitoring my thoughts and body and everything around me can get twisted by mindfulness into that structural poison. Or it can be a practice where I notice my own needs, and then actively practice and plan meeting them. Or noticing when I am caught up in the thought processes of a sick system that has been internalised. But it is work and it's not easy, and I have a therapist for a reason.
I am not, in any way, surprised that meditation and mindfulness have harmful components and bad results, even for neurotypical people without trauma. It is absolutely the way of things - it's like when people scoff at the idea a piece of media could make someone do something bad but also tell me how a book saved their life. You cannot have that much of a positive effect without the potential for negative. You cannot fuck with someone's brain and identity like that without the possibility it will be bad, or have negative elements.
But it is very much also what happens when a religious practice is stripped of context, signifiers, and meaning, then farmed out to a population that does not have any of that culturally. There are similar practices in many faiths - counting the rosary for example - that similarly lose meaning outside the religious context and that loss creates a space for unintended meaning.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:33 PM on April 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
Guided meditations? Bad news. I immediately broke into tears and sobbing the first time we did one in therapy. Counted breath meditation? Much more useful. But the latter includes/requires being present in my body - not necessarily a body scan type but being lightly aware, as it goes, of my breath and what my body is doing.
We never go over ten minutes. And im prone to disassociation so I know when I've gone from "lightly aware and accepting" to "not here". And it is cemented in the religious practice of Buddhism. Separating the method of mediation from the spiritual element leaves you with no grounding for what is going on.
Without the appropriate context, it just makes me think of all the warnings about "open minds" that just leave space for something unintended. The practice is not meant to be universal, context less, and suitable for everything and everyone in the same way.
Sleeping less while meditating is definitely a thing and it's something my therapist and I have discussed in relation to my chronic insomnia. In that there are times I am not sleeping and not going to sleep but I need to function. Meditation might help me settle my thoughts and body enough to sleep but it might also give me enough peace to just get through the next day.
Same with mindfulness. The perpetual "watched and watching" element of gender, and motherhood, where I am supposed to be On and Responsive and always monitoring my thoughts and body and everything around me can get twisted by mindfulness into that structural poison. Or it can be a practice where I notice my own needs, and then actively practice and plan meeting them. Or noticing when I am caught up in the thought processes of a sick system that has been internalised. But it is work and it's not easy, and I have a therapist for a reason.
I am not, in any way, surprised that meditation and mindfulness have harmful components and bad results, even for neurotypical people without trauma. It is absolutely the way of things - it's like when people scoff at the idea a piece of media could make someone do something bad but also tell me how a book saved their life. You cannot have that much of a positive effect without the potential for negative. You cannot fuck with someone's brain and identity like that without the possibility it will be bad, or have negative elements.
But it is very much also what happens when a religious practice is stripped of context, signifiers, and meaning, then farmed out to a population that does not have any of that culturally. There are similar practices in many faiths - counting the rosary for example - that similarly lose meaning outside the religious context and that loss creates a space for unintended meaning.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:33 PM on April 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
I liked Miko's whole comment above but want to pick out this bit to talk about a little bit more:
I don’t mean to downplay the terror of the experience of becoming aware of trauma one had not acknowledged before. I lost a summer to that process myself and it is terrifying and miserable. I am just not sure meditation specifically can be blamed, when it was simply the trigger that exposed the trauma.
I definitely agree that in my case, meditation was the trigger, and other things can be triggers too. The thing I wish had been different was that I (or anybody involved with it) had more awareness that it could be a trigger. So much of our cultural dialogue around meditation says that if it's uncomfortable, it's working, or that if you're having negative effects it's because you're not doing it right. In my case, before the full-scale dissociative episodes I found it increasingly tough going in smaller ways -- small episodes of not feeling real, random crying that I couldn't figure out the origin of, etc. But all I heard was that this meant I should try harder, or that some discomfort was to be expected and I should push through it.
For most other trauma triggers there is at least the awareness that they are bad, and if they make you feel horrible, you should stop triggering yourself. I did not stop when I should have, and I put that down to the ubiquitous messaging that mindfulness and meditation are good (especially at the smaller "doses" I was engaging in). It would be nice if there were more cultural awareness that it's not always good, so people who could be hurt by it can recognise that before it does major damage in the way it did to me.
posted by forza at 5:24 PM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don’t mean to downplay the terror of the experience of becoming aware of trauma one had not acknowledged before. I lost a summer to that process myself and it is terrifying and miserable. I am just not sure meditation specifically can be blamed, when it was simply the trigger that exposed the trauma.
I definitely agree that in my case, meditation was the trigger, and other things can be triggers too. The thing I wish had been different was that I (or anybody involved with it) had more awareness that it could be a trigger. So much of our cultural dialogue around meditation says that if it's uncomfortable, it's working, or that if you're having negative effects it's because you're not doing it right. In my case, before the full-scale dissociative episodes I found it increasingly tough going in smaller ways -- small episodes of not feeling real, random crying that I couldn't figure out the origin of, etc. But all I heard was that this meant I should try harder, or that some discomfort was to be expected and I should push through it.
For most other trauma triggers there is at least the awareness that they are bad, and if they make you feel horrible, you should stop triggering yourself. I did not stop when I should have, and I put that down to the ubiquitous messaging that mindfulness and meditation are good (especially at the smaller "doses" I was engaging in). It would be nice if there were more cultural awareness that it's not always good, so people who could be hurt by it can recognise that before it does major damage in the way it did to me.
posted by forza at 5:24 PM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
So sorry to hear some of y'all had terrible experiences with meditation, that sucks
I did the Vipassana 10 day retreat mentioned in the article and it worked great for me. But I did a lot of careful study and thought about whether I was ready to do it. An interesting counterpoint was my wife, who has bipolar disorder and dissociative identity. As I was looking at the practice we talked about whether it would be good for her and from everything we read, decided it wouldn't be.
'Cause I absolutely dissociated and hallucinated during those long days of meditation. It worked out well for me, as I was able to interrogate various issues and heal form them. But yeah, it's easy to see how wrong it could go for some folks. That aspect definitely needs to discussed and highlighted to anyone thinking of trying any form of mediation.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 PM on April 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
I did the Vipassana 10 day retreat mentioned in the article and it worked great for me. But I did a lot of careful study and thought about whether I was ready to do it. An interesting counterpoint was my wife, who has bipolar disorder and dissociative identity. As I was looking at the practice we talked about whether it would be good for her and from everything we read, decided it wouldn't be.
'Cause I absolutely dissociated and hallucinated during those long days of meditation. It worked out well for me, as I was able to interrogate various issues and heal form them. But yeah, it's easy to see how wrong it could go for some folks. That aspect definitely needs to discussed and highlighted to anyone thinking of trying any form of mediation.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 PM on April 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Back in 2019, I was bored, lonely, and totally up for joining a cult, so I did TM training. It was very low key, one solo session, two lectures with a group, and that was it. Honestly, if I’d paid full price I think I would have been disappointed, but the finance bros seemed to think it had been “efficient” and it “respected” their time. The most cult-like thing they’ve done is send out an email newsletter I never read.
I took Zen meditation classes in Japan and that left me very skeptical of Zen meditation on its own without the philosophy and the religious context. If it works for people, that’s good, but it’s not for me right now or maybe ever.
Meditation isn’t for everyone. There are many people that it is not a great choice for, and my suspicion is that it gets pushed so much because it is free-to-cheap. Risks and side effects should be studied and publicized, but the article handles that badly. It’s as if an article about the dangers of running were framed around someone dying in a marathon.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:47 PM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I took Zen meditation classes in Japan and that left me very skeptical of Zen meditation on its own without the philosophy and the religious context. If it works for people, that’s good, but it’s not for me right now or maybe ever.
Meditation isn’t for everyone. There are many people that it is not a great choice for, and my suspicion is that it gets pushed so much because it is free-to-cheap. Risks and side effects should be studied and publicized, but the article handles that badly. It’s as if an article about the dangers of running were framed around someone dying in a marathon.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:47 PM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
It’s as if an article about the dangers of running were framed around someone dying in a marathon.
That’s truly a great analogy, because it does happen, in rare cases, and yes running can be used j unhealthy ways and taken to an unhealthy extreme. Yet for a majority of those who integrate intro their lifestyle it’s a key to maintaining health and amity.
posted by Miko at 9:49 PM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
That’s truly a great analogy, because it does happen, in rare cases, and yes running can be used j unhealthy ways and taken to an unhealthy extreme. Yet for a majority of those who integrate intro their lifestyle it’s a key to maintaining health and amity.
posted by Miko at 9:49 PM on April 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile for me psychodynamic therapy hits a lot of these buttons. And every time I'm told I just need to keep pushing through because that's the only way to get to a "breakthrough" that will make it all worthwhile, and if I stop then I'm refusing to "do the work".
There are tons of therapeutic interventions where it's naive if not astonishingly negligent to believe that, if a little is good for you, a lot must be great, or that it's a cure-all.
This is it. It's like a kind of Just World fallacy (if you do the right things you'll get good results; if you don't get good results, you must not be doing it right or enough) combined with a desire to protect our egos from the idea that we don't actually know the answer, there might not be An Answer, we aren't actually helping the people we're giving advice to, and often we might actually be full of shit. This isn't just about capitalism or solo practice etc. I wonder if there's any culture in the world where people accept that there's no such thing as a cure-all.
posted by trig at 12:46 AM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are tons of therapeutic interventions where it's naive if not astonishingly negligent to believe that, if a little is good for you, a lot must be great, or that it's a cure-all.
This is it. It's like a kind of Just World fallacy (if you do the right things you'll get good results; if you don't get good results, you must not be doing it right or enough) combined with a desire to protect our egos from the idea that we don't actually know the answer, there might not be An Answer, we aren't actually helping the people we're giving advice to, and often we might actually be full of shit. This isn't just about capitalism or solo practice etc. I wonder if there's any culture in the world where people accept that there's no such thing as a cure-all.
posted by trig at 12:46 AM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Meditation isn’t for everyone.
I saw the Dalai Lama speak once, and, in response to a question that I fear I don't recall, he said something like "Maybe Buddhism's not for everybody.....maybe Buddhism's not for you....that's OK" which was consistent with his generally ecumenical talk about trying to become more compassionate and peaceful, which could be your goal regardless of your religious beliefs.
posted by thelonius at 1:56 AM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I saw the Dalai Lama speak once, and, in response to a question that I fear I don't recall, he said something like "Maybe Buddhism's not for everybody.....maybe Buddhism's not for you....that's OK" which was consistent with his generally ecumenical talk about trying to become more compassionate and peaceful, which could be your goal regardless of your religious beliefs.
posted by thelonius at 1:56 AM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
One is The Shadow of the Dalai Lama, written by Victor and Victoria Trimondi, a couple who went very deep into their Buddhist practice in one of the Tibetan sects, and didn't like what they found.
Many years ago, there was a member here who despised Tibetan Buddhism. I can't paraphrase one of his entire rants, but I do recall him saying that they had been basically a feudal society where everyone was serfs to the monasteries. I don't know if he outright would say that he thought the Chinese invasion was for the best, but it seemed like he was pretty far along to thinking like that.
I remember this almost for the novelty. Tibetan Buddhism is pretty solidly established as a "Stuff White People Like" religion, with celebrity followers and all, and the Dalai Lama seems to have generally high positives. People see him as a world spiritual leader and a man of peace, I think, for the most part. It was sort of like someone coming out and saying they thought that kittens suck.
So while I do not endorse this person's crude attack, I'm sure there is a story there that is not entirely about how wonderful Tibetan Buddhism is. A complicated story. However Tibetan society might have evolved or reformed itself from what does seem to have been pretty much a feudal system, those possibilities were foreclosed by the invasion, and it seems wrong to assume that the monastic culture in exile, whatever its faults may be, is just like the worst aspects of pre-invasion society. For starters.
posted by thelonius at 2:16 AM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Many years ago, there was a member here who despised Tibetan Buddhism. I can't paraphrase one of his entire rants, but I do recall him saying that they had been basically a feudal society where everyone was serfs to the monasteries. I don't know if he outright would say that he thought the Chinese invasion was for the best, but it seemed like he was pretty far along to thinking like that.
I remember this almost for the novelty. Tibetan Buddhism is pretty solidly established as a "Stuff White People Like" religion, with celebrity followers and all, and the Dalai Lama seems to have generally high positives. People see him as a world spiritual leader and a man of peace, I think, for the most part. It was sort of like someone coming out and saying they thought that kittens suck.
So while I do not endorse this person's crude attack, I'm sure there is a story there that is not entirely about how wonderful Tibetan Buddhism is. A complicated story. However Tibetan society might have evolved or reformed itself from what does seem to have been pretty much a feudal system, those possibilities were foreclosed by the invasion, and it seems wrong to assume that the monastic culture in exile, whatever its faults may be, is just like the worst aspects of pre-invasion society. For starters.
posted by thelonius at 2:16 AM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
In my later teens, with seriously low esteem issues, I saw an ad for self improvement that basically promised wonders for every part of one's life. I ordered the program and it was a combination of affirmations and, although it wasn't called that, meditation. The affirmations seemed to work, but going into the enhancing creativity section the instructions were just to completely open one's mind. I sensed instinctively that it was going too deep and fortunately stopped after a while. Reading this now, I wonder if the program contributed to my subsequently going to extremes in ways I never would have thought would happen. The risks the article lays out seem to be more than just a few extreme cases or not doing it right.
posted by blue shadows at 11:55 AM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by blue shadows at 11:55 AM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
How too much mindfulness can spike anxiety.
An interesting point made at the end of the article is that perhaps the *type* of meditation matters. The inner-centred mindfulness practices seem to be the ones that might be problematic. But outer-directed practices such as loving-kindness or compassion meditation may not be as much of an issue?
Again, what seems to be missing is more evidence-based research.
posted by storybored at 7:24 PM on May 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
An interesting point made at the end of the article is that perhaps the *type* of meditation matters. The inner-centred mindfulness practices seem to be the ones that might be problematic. But outer-directed practices such as loving-kindness or compassion meditation may not be as much of an issue?
Again, what seems to be missing is more evidence-based research.
posted by storybored at 7:24 PM on May 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
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