Where's the Beef?
April 28, 2021 2:35 AM Subscribe
In an effort to encourage more sustainable cooking, Epicurious is no longer publishing new beef recipes – in fact, they already pulled the plug on beef over a year ago. What about dairy, or pork, or chicken, or seafood? Answers to these questions and more, along with resources on sustainable cooking.
A small step in the right direction.
posted by freakazoid at 4:43 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by freakazoid at 4:43 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
This made me horse laugh: what a great rhetorical trap to lay, while also living your values quietly.
I would appreciate a guide to swapping out beef for alternatives in recipes I like. Not a collection of vegetarian favorites, but like a Rosetta Stone for continuing to eat my favorites but now without beef.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:45 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
I would appreciate a guide to swapping out beef for alternatives in recipes I like. Not a collection of vegetarian favorites, but like a Rosetta Stone for continuing to eat my favorites but now without beef.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:45 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
I eat a lot less beef these days but mostly because it has gotten too expensive.
posted by srboisvert at 5:05 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 5:05 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
We're headed to a world where even more delicious everyday foods become only for the rich. Tragedy of the commons.
posted by polymodus at 5:18 AM on April 28, 2021
posted by polymodus at 5:18 AM on April 28, 2021
We're headed to a world where even more delicious everyday foods become only for the rich. Tragedy of the commons.
I don't know, almost all of my favorite foods are cheap and will continue to be so. But I totally acknowledge that a lot of people will find the transition hard.
posted by mumimor at 5:38 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't know, almost all of my favorite foods are cheap and will continue to be so. But I totally acknowledge that a lot of people will find the transition hard.
posted by mumimor at 5:38 AM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
How's that vat meat coming along? While we may never be able to grow a fine marbled ribeye in a lab, I see no reason why cloned muscle and fat cells couldn't be combined to produce a perfectly serviceable fast food patty.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:00 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:00 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
We cut beef to almost nothing years ago, and this year, explicitly chose to cut out eating meat (well, land animals anyways). Climate and environment were part of the reason to be sure, but what put me over the edge were the numerous COVID outbreaks in meat processing plants in Alberta. Staffed by temporary foreign workers (TFW) for whom normal work protections and minimum wages do not apply, working long shifts in poorly ventilated, refrigerated air and then going home to packed apartments and houses, the coronavirus ran through there like a wildfire. A year later, and they remain the worst areas of workplace transmission, which indicates how feebly this opaque industry is regulated (yes, there are ag-gag laws in Alberta so you can be charged criminally for taking photos or video).
Other reasons were general animal welfare concerns, but even organic, free ranging Alberta cattle go through the same handful of plants with very few exceptions. Environment, human suffering, animal suffering... its too much just to eat tasty animals. (There's also human health too: heart disease is a concern for me as I round past the corner of denial into firmly middle age...)
We've also cut out pork (we used to eat a couple of slices of bacon a week, and I enjoyed hams and other cured pork meats on sandwiches), chicken (we could source 'happy chickens' from farmer's markets and the like, but I am distrustful of any system that achieves economies of scale for meat at this point), lamb (my favourite meat, a treat to eat a few times a year or in a delicious vindaloo curry)....
We still have lots of animal foods in our diet. We're still eating fish once a week or so, and that's hugely problematic despite the various certifications. Our consumption of eggs has basically doubled. I expect we'll whittle those down slowly over time. The hardest to cut out entirely will be dairy -- it's going to take a long time to get cheese out. As the article points out, dairy cattle are also significant contributors to climate change.
I'm probably the world's worst vegetarian -- and I'll still eat anything that's served to me (of course this year, we're not really in situations where people are making us meals) -- and obviously the fish dairy and eggs remain significant.
But I also firmly believe that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and, say, a third reduction in animal based foods is a great deal better than zero. Part of the process is gradual shifts in habit. For instance, I grew up with the notion that supper was always the trinity of meat + starch + a side vegetable. Even before taking the further step last year, it's been a long time since a third of the meal looked missing. If you taper off, as I'd effectively done even before last year's more intentional step, your general framework for putting together meals shifts. The more traditional North American meat + starch becomes more of an exception; you pick up cues from cuisines that use meat more sparingly or not at all. The big step of cutting out meat becomes a smaller step, a continuation of a more gradual shift. Kind of like epicurious' small shift to de-emphasize beef.
posted by bumpkin at 6:04 AM on April 28, 2021 [35 favorites]
Other reasons were general animal welfare concerns, but even organic, free ranging Alberta cattle go through the same handful of plants with very few exceptions. Environment, human suffering, animal suffering... its too much just to eat tasty animals. (There's also human health too: heart disease is a concern for me as I round past the corner of denial into firmly middle age...)
We've also cut out pork (we used to eat a couple of slices of bacon a week, and I enjoyed hams and other cured pork meats on sandwiches), chicken (we could source 'happy chickens' from farmer's markets and the like, but I am distrustful of any system that achieves economies of scale for meat at this point), lamb (my favourite meat, a treat to eat a few times a year or in a delicious vindaloo curry)....
We still have lots of animal foods in our diet. We're still eating fish once a week or so, and that's hugely problematic despite the various certifications. Our consumption of eggs has basically doubled. I expect we'll whittle those down slowly over time. The hardest to cut out entirely will be dairy -- it's going to take a long time to get cheese out. As the article points out, dairy cattle are also significant contributors to climate change.
I'm probably the world's worst vegetarian -- and I'll still eat anything that's served to me (of course this year, we're not really in situations where people are making us meals) -- and obviously the fish dairy and eggs remain significant.
But I also firmly believe that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and, say, a third reduction in animal based foods is a great deal better than zero. Part of the process is gradual shifts in habit. For instance, I grew up with the notion that supper was always the trinity of meat + starch + a side vegetable. Even before taking the further step last year, it's been a long time since a third of the meal looked missing. If you taper off, as I'd effectively done even before last year's more intentional step, your general framework for putting together meals shifts. The more traditional North American meat + starch becomes more of an exception; you pick up cues from cuisines that use meat more sparingly or not at all. The big step of cutting out meat becomes a smaller step, a continuation of a more gradual shift. Kind of like epicurious' small shift to de-emphasize beef.
posted by bumpkin at 6:04 AM on April 28, 2021 [35 favorites]
I've been buying a pack of Lightlife ground "beef" every week and using it in place of real beef in recipes and it's been good. The kids haven't complained and they're usually picky about these things.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:07 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:07 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I bought shares in Beyond Meat because I'm eating so much of it that some of the profit may as well flow back to me.
This is the line too far for many Americans. They believe that their freedoms are being stolen if they can't eat red meat every single day.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:15 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is the line too far for many Americans. They believe that their freedoms are being stolen if they can't eat red meat every single day.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:15 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
We haven't had beef in our house for probably 30+ years. The only time I ever touch beef is if I'm at some kind of get-together and the host only has beef on the table. Luckily, that usually amounts to meatballs or something small like that. I think I've had to eat two burgers of any sort over those 30 years.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:16 AM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:16 AM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
New Beyond Burger 3.0 debuts
The new Beyond Burger formulation has less fat, saturated fat, and calories than both its predecessor formula and 80/20 ground beef made from animals. The protein remains higher than in traditional ground beef ... Beyond's other announcement is part of an ongoing race to price parity with animal beef: A new four-pack retails for a suggested $9.99 or $2.50 per quarter-pound pattyposted by gwint at 6:19 AM on April 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
I tried Beyond Beef for the first time the other day, in an order of nachos. At least at that restaurant, I'll keep ordering my nachos that way, it was just as good as the usual ground beef. I haven't tried it in burger form yet but I've heard it is pretty good that way, too.
To me, where the fake meats will shine is in replacing commodity meat like that. The high end steak is always going to come from a cow, but so much of what we eat could be replaced that way.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:30 AM on April 28, 2021 [9 favorites]
To me, where the fake meats will shine is in replacing commodity meat like that. The high end steak is always going to come from a cow, but so much of what we eat could be replaced that way.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:30 AM on April 28, 2021 [9 favorites]
Beyond's other announcement is part of an ongoing race to price parity with animal beef: A new four-pack retails for a suggested $9.99 or $2.50 per quarter-pound patty
$2.50 for a quarter-pound? They aren't targeting supermarket ground beef, they're targeting fast-food burgers, right?
I kind of think Beyond is missing the boat here, using beef as their target for price parity. For me, a non-beef-eater, my parity target price would be turkey burger, which currently goes for around $5-$5.50/lb., or about half what Beyond is selling their product.
I'd gleefully welcome Beyond into my kitchen with open arms if they could get their pricing down closer to turkey burger.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:30 AM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
$2.50 for a quarter-pound? They aren't targeting supermarket ground beef, they're targeting fast-food burgers, right?
I kind of think Beyond is missing the boat here, using beef as their target for price parity. For me, a non-beef-eater, my parity target price would be turkey burger, which currently goes for around $5-$5.50/lb., or about half what Beyond is selling their product.
I'd gleefully welcome Beyond into my kitchen with open arms if they could get their pricing down closer to turkey burger.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:30 AM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm no longer a vegetarian (though I was for many years), but I rarely eat beef as it is (and I still eat vegetarian probably 80% of the time, especially when I'm cooking). I do have a dairy problem, though, and I don't t know who's out there working on the plant-based alternatives to all of my favorite cave-ripened, smelly, French, triple-creme cheeses, but I hope to God someone is. Because they are in my all time, top five of life and I honestly don't know if I can quit them without some kind of actual rehab situation.
(I kid, but not really)
posted by thivaia at 6:40 AM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
(I kid, but not really)
posted by thivaia at 6:40 AM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
A quick search indicates that in 2019 it cost $12 a pound for Beyond Beef 2.0. So this is ostensibly a better product at 25% lower cost. Per the article at original launch Beyond Beef was $20 a pound. Even as this trajectory levels out, it looks to me like they are on the right path - especially as costs for meats continue to rise.
posted by meinvt at 6:41 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by meinvt at 6:41 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
We rarely do red meat at home. But when we do, it's usually lamb. Beef is so flavor-free when you compare it to lamb. I do make beef stew with red wine (traditional French style) about once a year.
Announcing no more beef recipes? Seems a little "stunt-y" to me. But as mentioned here, it's a step in the right direction.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:41 AM on April 28, 2021
Announcing no more beef recipes? Seems a little "stunt-y" to me. But as mentioned here, it's a step in the right direction.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:41 AM on April 28, 2021
The Best Vegan Cheeses Defy Expectations (Tejal Rao, NYT)
posted by ectabo at 7:02 AM on April 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
This newer generation of packaged cheese is more convincing, in part, because it’s produced in roughly the same way as dairy cheeses, made from cultured plant-based milks that develop texture and flavor through fermentation, rather than solely through additives.I haven't tried any of these cheeses, but there's a vegan cheese shop in NYC that I'll have to try sometime.
On a much smaller scale, specialty cheesemakers like Blue Heron Creamery in Vancouver, British Columbia; the Herbivorous Butcher in Minneapolis; and Vtopian Artisan Cheeses, in Portland, Ore., are pushing the limits of those fermentations to create vegan cheeses with flavors and textures I’d previously thought impossible.
posted by ectabo at 7:02 AM on April 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
Lamb is as bad or maybe worse than beef for the environment.
posted by biffa at 7:24 AM on April 28, 2021
posted by biffa at 7:24 AM on April 28, 2021
We're headed to a world where even more delicious everyday foods become only for the rich.
I've been vegan for almost four years, and I found that over time, my tastes changed. I absolutely find my vegan foods delicious. I'm sure I would still enjoy the taste of non-vegan foods, but I very rarely miss animal products. I think it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that humans would be able to enjoy whatever foods are available to them.
posted by FencingGal at 7:25 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've been vegan for almost four years, and I found that over time, my tastes changed. I absolutely find my vegan foods delicious. I'm sure I would still enjoy the taste of non-vegan foods, but I very rarely miss animal products. I think it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that humans would be able to enjoy whatever foods are available to them.
posted by FencingGal at 7:25 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
Let us not forget that Epicurious is a brand / product in a very competitive web marketplace. Perhaps it is the cynic in me that looks at the behind the scenes reasoning for their making this stance. The article is very high on the (known) emotive stats regarding beef and the environmental harm it does but little substance behind how effective their approach is . "The traffic and engagement numbers on these stories don’t lie: When given an alternative to beef, American cooks get hungry.".
The REAL problem is one of a society where the food supply chain has invested heavily in getting people to view their product as being THE BEST. While at the same time, up to 92% of U.S. corn is genetically engineered (GE), as are 94% of soybeans and 94% of cotton (cottonseed oil is often used in food products). It has been estimated that upwards of 75% of processed foods on supermarket shelves – from soda to soup, crackers to condiments – contain genetically engineered ingredients.
When 37% of Americans eat fast food on a daily basis (here) you have to wonder how significant a stance taken by a website unlikely to be visited by (at least) 37% of the American populace is actually going to be. What is not needed is a level of wokeness concerning a specific food product. What is needed is far more focus on educating consumers regarding the choices they (and the food producers) make. Unfortunately, most of the products consumed are designed to taste 'nice'. Apparently...
Perhaps a better focus would be on the proper distribution of food. Last year around 30 million Americans had insufficient food to eat... here. At the same time the level of over-production and food waste continues to sky-rocket.
The battle for market share of advertising revenue for recipe sites is intense. I see this action as simply a marketing ploy to differentiate them from other sites. I believe this action will likely backfire on them. Their lame attempt at justifying their actions skirts around many of the issues and does not address food quality or real food diversity in any way. They do a very good job marketing meat substitutes though... caring for market share and profit.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:26 AM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
The REAL problem is one of a society where the food supply chain has invested heavily in getting people to view their product as being THE BEST. While at the same time, up to 92% of U.S. corn is genetically engineered (GE), as are 94% of soybeans and 94% of cotton (cottonseed oil is often used in food products). It has been estimated that upwards of 75% of processed foods on supermarket shelves – from soda to soup, crackers to condiments – contain genetically engineered ingredients.
When 37% of Americans eat fast food on a daily basis (here) you have to wonder how significant a stance taken by a website unlikely to be visited by (at least) 37% of the American populace is actually going to be. What is not needed is a level of wokeness concerning a specific food product. What is needed is far more focus on educating consumers regarding the choices they (and the food producers) make. Unfortunately, most of the products consumed are designed to taste 'nice'. Apparently...
Perhaps a better focus would be on the proper distribution of food. Last year around 30 million Americans had insufficient food to eat... here. At the same time the level of over-production and food waste continues to sky-rocket.
The battle for market share of advertising revenue for recipe sites is intense. I see this action as simply a marketing ploy to differentiate them from other sites. I believe this action will likely backfire on them. Their lame attempt at justifying their actions skirts around many of the issues and does not address food quality or real food diversity in any way. They do a very good job marketing meat substitutes though... caring for market share and profit.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:26 AM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd gleefully welcome Beyond into my kitchen with open arms if they could get their pricing down closer to turkey burger.
I do wonder how much their pricing will drop over time as production scales up, but overall they are trying to position themselves as a premium product. Turkey burgers aren't bad, but they have never successfully taken on the perception of being really premium, so they are probably not the pricing benchmark Beyond Beef and similar companies are using.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:34 AM on April 28, 2021
I do wonder how much their pricing will drop over time as production scales up, but overall they are trying to position themselves as a premium product. Turkey burgers aren't bad, but they have never successfully taken on the perception of being really premium, so they are probably not the pricing benchmark Beyond Beef and similar companies are using.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:34 AM on April 28, 2021
Somebody is going to blame Biden for this.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:35 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 7:35 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
They already did.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:51 AM on April 28, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:51 AM on April 28, 2021 [14 favorites]
Beyond meat burgers are pretty tasty but around here they're even more expensive than the ground beef from local grass-fed happy cows. Most of the other meat substitutes have been almost inedible so we usually stick to tofu or some kind of beans for veggie meals. I'm always looking for new vegetarian recipes since we have a limited repertoire thanks to pickiness and some allergies.
We've been trying to make plant- or fish-based meals more routine with meat meals as an occasional treat and I think for us that's much more feasible than trying to cut it out completely. Other than restaurant meals we've been sticking to small-scale grass-fed beef, which greatly reduces the environmental concerns other than methane production. Dairy is much harder to reduce unfortunately, though plant milks are an OK substitute for cereal or drinking (definitely not in coffee or tea though, at least for me). The cheese substitutes we've tried...yikes, never again. If I ever get the chance to try those fancy artisan vegan cheeses I probably would though.
posted by randomnity at 8:04 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
We've been trying to make plant- or fish-based meals more routine with meat meals as an occasional treat and I think for us that's much more feasible than trying to cut it out completely. Other than restaurant meals we've been sticking to small-scale grass-fed beef, which greatly reduces the environmental concerns other than methane production. Dairy is much harder to reduce unfortunately, though plant milks are an OK substitute for cereal or drinking (definitely not in coffee or tea though, at least for me). The cheese substitutes we've tried...yikes, never again. If I ever get the chance to try those fancy artisan vegan cheeses I probably would though.
posted by randomnity at 8:04 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I mean... this move by Epicurious can be both a stunt and a good thing. I don't know that we always have to be so suspicious, even of admittedly profit-driven companies. I assume people do go to Epicurious for ideas on what to cook rather than thinking "I must eat beef today", and so this move may have reduced beef consumption somewhat. I know that I've reduced my beef consumption thanks to articles like these.
Anyway, I suspect Epicurious would be the last to claim their move has solved every issue with the food chain. It takes a village!
posted by adrianhon at 8:38 AM on April 28, 2021 [13 favorites]
Anyway, I suspect Epicurious would be the last to claim their move has solved every issue with the food chain. It takes a village!
posted by adrianhon at 8:38 AM on April 28, 2021 [13 favorites]
Data suggest that the rush towards vegetarian/veganism will not be sustainable for most people. Meat is artificially cheap in the USA because the industry exploits laborers and externalizes the environmental costs on society at large [1]. These issues can be fixed by regulation. Driving up the price of meat to match its true holistic cost will naturally cause people to eat less meat.
[1] Quantifying externalized costs is hard. I guess this is part of the reason why so many industries get away with it. This book claims to calculate them for the meat industry, but I have not read it.
posted by scose at 8:47 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
[1] Quantifying externalized costs is hard. I guess this is part of the reason why so many industries get away with it. This book claims to calculate them for the meat industry, but I have not read it.
posted by scose at 8:47 AM on April 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've replaced beef patties with Impossible patties. If you haven't tried them yet, do. They actually made some things better. It's not exactly meat but it's delicious all by itself.
posted by fake at 8:51 AM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by fake at 8:51 AM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Graphic for Food: greenhouse gas emission across the supply chain. Beef production generates by far more emissions than any other food.
posted by Bodechack at 9:54 AM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Bodechack at 9:54 AM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
LinkedIn had a roundup of posts about this story, and one of the comments I read accused Epicurious of censorship by not posting meat recipes and all I could do was shake my head. That's where we are now, I guess, for some people, free speech means other people have to say the stuff that they want them to say.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:58 AM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 9:58 AM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
We're headed to a world where even more delicious everyday foods become only for the rich. Tragedy of the commons.
I was listening to the Maintenance Phase podcast this week which focuses on a 70s diet book by Ed McMahon and they were laughing at the instructions to have steak or shrimp for a lot of meals but...that's sort of how I remember the 70s. It wasn't great steak, and often the kids had hamburger while the dad had steak (not at my house, but definitely at some of my friends') but it was middle class achievable in a single-earner home. We had roast beef or pot roast most Sundays.
I think this is much more about the hollowing out of the middle class than beef itself.
Even so I think beef should be really expensive - at the very least subsidies for feed should be phased out. I was convinced over a year ago that it's far and away really bad for the environment.
I said this in the last beef conversation but we phased beef out at home. (Not cheese/dairy. I have tried. I have reduced our sort of 'mindless cheese on things.' But cheeeeeeeeese.) I have hopes for the new vegan cheeses but) over a year ago and it's only reappeared a little briefly over the pandemic since we are not eating out.
Despite having two low-carb folks, they don't miss it too much. I think we're pretty much already at the day that beef in most cases for our family is a rare treat. (I do get beef bones for stock from a local market for $1 from time to time.) I get a good amount of our pork/chicken annually direct from a conglomeration of producers to our freezer, and our summer produce which comes from a CSA.
Our table is increasingly weird as we have a meat/fish/egg dish + a legume dish + various veggie sides for a lot of meals (I'm finding animal flesh harder to consume and my kids are sort of gradually coming along with me.) I'm happy to have major food sites contributing ideas and recipes. :) Lately I'm obsessed with the NYT lentils cacciatore and also lentils diavolo. (Lentils are a major Canadian crop, woo hoo.)
The Beyond meat is pretty rich for our blood -- even our other convenience vegan burgers are cheaper - but I think it's a good product.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:01 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was listening to the Maintenance Phase podcast this week which focuses on a 70s diet book by Ed McMahon and they were laughing at the instructions to have steak or shrimp for a lot of meals but...that's sort of how I remember the 70s. It wasn't great steak, and often the kids had hamburger while the dad had steak (not at my house, but definitely at some of my friends') but it was middle class achievable in a single-earner home. We had roast beef or pot roast most Sundays.
I think this is much more about the hollowing out of the middle class than beef itself.
Even so I think beef should be really expensive - at the very least subsidies for feed should be phased out. I was convinced over a year ago that it's far and away really bad for the environment.
I said this in the last beef conversation but we phased beef out at home. (Not cheese/dairy. I have tried. I have reduced our sort of 'mindless cheese on things.' But cheeeeeeeeese.) I have hopes for the new vegan cheeses but) over a year ago and it's only reappeared a little briefly over the pandemic since we are not eating out.
Despite having two low-carb folks, they don't miss it too much. I think we're pretty much already at the day that beef in most cases for our family is a rare treat. (I do get beef bones for stock from a local market for $1 from time to time.) I get a good amount of our pork/chicken annually direct from a conglomeration of producers to our freezer, and our summer produce which comes from a CSA.
Our table is increasingly weird as we have a meat/fish/egg dish + a legume dish + various veggie sides for a lot of meals (I'm finding animal flesh harder to consume and my kids are sort of gradually coming along with me.) I'm happy to have major food sites contributing ideas and recipes. :) Lately I'm obsessed with the NYT lentils cacciatore and also lentils diavolo. (Lentils are a major Canadian crop, woo hoo.)
The Beyond meat is pretty rich for our blood -- even our other convenience vegan burgers are cheaper - but I think it's a good product.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:01 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's been interesting watching this nascent culture war over meat play out over the past couple of weeks. I think that my state's Republican party is positively salivating at the thought of it: it does a really good job connecting Iowa's agriculture economy, which is desperately under-regulated and kind of a menace, to people's day-to-day lives in ways that make people emotionally invested in the fate of really bad corporate actors. It's really hard to say "we should allow multinational corporations to pollute our land and water, even if it threatens everyone's health." It's much easier to say "effeminate coastal elites don't realize that steak and hamburgers are part of our virile agricultural way of life." People aren't necessarily invested in corporations, but they are invested in "our way of life," and food is a really visceral part of "our way of life." It's really helpful to them to reframe questions about corporate agricultural practices into questions about what people should eat. So anyway, I think it's awesome that Epicurious is doing this, and I think the way they did it is really clever, but it's definitely going to be picked up by savvy rightwing culture warriors who realize that dumb meat politics is a good issue for them.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:36 AM on April 28, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:36 AM on April 28, 2021 [7 favorites]
Even so I think beef should be really expensive
I wish there was a better way to encourage people to limit their consumption of beef without turning beef into a luxury item only the rich can enjoy.
Because, like, I already don't eat a lot of beef. I do enjoy it occasionally, though, and would like to continue to enjoy it until I make the personal decision to cut beef out of my diet entirely. It grinds my gears that we have to put my occasional treat out of reach in order to stop other people from consuming ridiculous quantities of it. And that people who are rich will just continue to conspicuously consume without regard for the rest of the planet, like they will continue to buy unnecessarily large, gas-guzzling SUVs because they make so much money the cost of gas doesn't hurt them enough to stop.
I don't have ideas though. I guess it wouldn't be so annoying if other foods were more affordable. Like, if it didn't feel like the pricing structure of food was that poor people can only eat shelf-stable carbs, and all fresh foods, including vegetables, are a luxury. I already don't buy things like vegetables for making salads because I can't justify the ratio of cost per calorie/meal.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:54 AM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
I wish there was a better way to encourage people to limit their consumption of beef without turning beef into a luxury item only the rich can enjoy.
Because, like, I already don't eat a lot of beef. I do enjoy it occasionally, though, and would like to continue to enjoy it until I make the personal decision to cut beef out of my diet entirely. It grinds my gears that we have to put my occasional treat out of reach in order to stop other people from consuming ridiculous quantities of it. And that people who are rich will just continue to conspicuously consume without regard for the rest of the planet, like they will continue to buy unnecessarily large, gas-guzzling SUVs because they make so much money the cost of gas doesn't hurt them enough to stop.
I don't have ideas though. I guess it wouldn't be so annoying if other foods were more affordable. Like, if it didn't feel like the pricing structure of food was that poor people can only eat shelf-stable carbs, and all fresh foods, including vegetables, are a luxury. I already don't buy things like vegetables for making salads because I can't justify the ratio of cost per calorie/meal.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:54 AM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you eat dairy, you should also eat meat, because dairy cows provide excellent meat when they cannot produce milk anymore, and because the male calves must be slaughtered within a year or a little more. There is no use for them other than meat, and the farmers have no room for animals that have no use.
But eating much less milk and dairy is really helpful too, both for the planet and for animal welfare.
My kids, including the sons-in-law, are quite excited about buying and consuming much less animal produce. I'm mentioning the sons-in-law, because they grew up in families with a traditional western diet of meat + starch + veg and frozen dinners. Specially one of them is pretty amazed to learn that 350 g of meat is fine for four people, and that a vegan dish can be at least as delicious and filling as a meat based one. He just didn't know. This fits with other experiences in my life, so I believe education/dispersion of knowledge is a big factor in this.
And I have changed my mind on this: good vegan ready-to-microwave food in the freezer aisle. I guess I have learnt that not everyone is prepared to spend an hour in the kitchen every day.
posted by mumimor at 11:07 AM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
But eating much less milk and dairy is really helpful too, both for the planet and for animal welfare.
My kids, including the sons-in-law, are quite excited about buying and consuming much less animal produce. I'm mentioning the sons-in-law, because they grew up in families with a traditional western diet of meat + starch + veg and frozen dinners. Specially one of them is pretty amazed to learn that 350 g of meat is fine for four people, and that a vegan dish can be at least as delicious and filling as a meat based one. He just didn't know. This fits with other experiences in my life, so I believe education/dispersion of knowledge is a big factor in this.
And I have changed my mind on this: good vegan ready-to-microwave food in the freezer aisle. I guess I have learnt that not everyone is prepared to spend an hour in the kitchen every day.
posted by mumimor at 11:07 AM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
It grinds my gears that we have to put my occasional treat out of reach in order to stop other people from consuming ridiculous quantities of it.
But beef is only affordable for so many people because it's heavily subsidized.
From this article: According to recent studies, the U.S. government spends up to $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, with less than one percent of that sum allocated to aiding the production of fruits and vegetables . . . In addition to subsidies, Americans pay for meat consumption through healthcare costs and climate disruption. As David Simon illustrates in his book Meatonomics, consumers foot an estimated $2 in external costs for every $1 of product the meat and dairy industry sells.9 In other words, a $4 Big Mac actually costs society $11.
I don't eat meat or dairy products, and your ability to afford this treat is dependent on my helping to pay for it. I don't think that's reasonable either. I would even say it grinds MY gears.
posted by FencingGal at 11:25 AM on April 28, 2021 [7 favorites]
But beef is only affordable for so many people because it's heavily subsidized.
From this article: According to recent studies, the U.S. government spends up to $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, with less than one percent of that sum allocated to aiding the production of fruits and vegetables . . . In addition to subsidies, Americans pay for meat consumption through healthcare costs and climate disruption. As David Simon illustrates in his book Meatonomics, consumers foot an estimated $2 in external costs for every $1 of product the meat and dairy industry sells.9 In other words, a $4 Big Mac actually costs society $11.
I don't eat meat or dairy products, and your ability to afford this treat is dependent on my helping to pay for it. I don't think that's reasonable either. I would even say it grinds MY gears.
posted by FencingGal at 11:25 AM on April 28, 2021 [7 favorites]
The other day, I was thinking about how contemporary scientists should be able to calculate the optimal balance of untouched nature and sustainable agriculture for every region. We can go to Mars, but we don't invest the ressources needed for managing our home. AFAIK, the knowledge is out there, it's just that Big Ag is really big, and out-screams the alternative solutions.
I'm pretty certain that in some regions, big grazers are a necessary element of sustainable land management. And pigs, sheep, goats and all the fowl are useful. The quantity of dairy and meat that would come out of this type of farming is just much smaller than the current industrial production, so yes, it would be more expensive. But that would be good for our health, too.
One problem that smallholders have is distribution. CSAs are one 21th century solution to that problem, but maybe there could be many more. 20 years ago, all our big chain stores forced the individual shop managers to have identical products on their shelves, which led to a very dull uniformity. Now, because of the magic of Direct Store Delivery, every shop within every chain has its own profile, and many have made ties to local producers.
And smallholders can create cooperative distribution networks, where they share the costs and profits. But I guess that to begin with, we'd need to break up the big food companies, using anti-trust laws, perhaps combined with better worker protection laws, minimum wages and food quality regulations. So, socialism...
posted by mumimor at 11:58 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty certain that in some regions, big grazers are a necessary element of sustainable land management. And pigs, sheep, goats and all the fowl are useful. The quantity of dairy and meat that would come out of this type of farming is just much smaller than the current industrial production, so yes, it would be more expensive. But that would be good for our health, too.
One problem that smallholders have is distribution. CSAs are one 21th century solution to that problem, but maybe there could be many more. 20 years ago, all our big chain stores forced the individual shop managers to have identical products on their shelves, which led to a very dull uniformity. Now, because of the magic of Direct Store Delivery, every shop within every chain has its own profile, and many have made ties to local producers.
And smallholders can create cooperative distribution networks, where they share the costs and profits. But I guess that to begin with, we'd need to break up the big food companies, using anti-trust laws, perhaps combined with better worker protection laws, minimum wages and food quality regulations. So, socialism...
posted by mumimor at 11:58 AM on April 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
I respectfully disagree with the typical argument that people can get used to and enjoy vegetarian foods because it's essentially a psychological substitution argument that deflects from the real concern. The way I explain it is like requiring an artist to not use a certain color. Yes, all other colors are great, and one can "get used to" not using/accessing a certain pigment, and make great artwork. But at the end of the day we must confront that for others, it is a form of culinary denial. That recognition is essential to validation, i.e. I think it is more true to admit that for cuisines that use meat, that something is lost because as a society it is no longer sustainable. It's a hard truth, and no amount of psychological substitution can obscure that, and on a basic level people will see through efforts that dis-acknowledge loss, intentional or not.
posted by polymodus at 12:09 PM on April 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 12:09 PM on April 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
It is clearly better for the environment to eat fewer animal products or none at all. I think it is great that people are promoting that. But it is very troubling that Republicans are trying to link climate change action to taking away your cheeseburgers. They know this will be an effective way to turn people on climate change. They have probably shifted focus because it is increasingly clear that the coal miner jobs argument is effectively neutralized by green jobs. I think politically, going after cheeseburgers/agriculture subsidies should be the last piece of the puzzle, once people are already happy with their green jobs, silent electric buses, cleaner air, etc.
posted by snofoam at 12:26 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 12:26 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
polymodus, I understand what you are saying from an emotional point of view, but it has to be stated from the facts that culture has never been a fixed thing. The way we eat now, regardless of where we are, is completely different from how our parents ate when they were our age. And their parents had a different food culture again. To expand on your painting analogy, Michelangelo could not have painted like Filippo Lippi, even if he had wanted to.
One example of this that is often mentioned is that the tomato was unknown in Italy before Europeans found their way to the Americas. Yet today we see tomato sauce as quintessentially Italian. On a more pedestrian level, I have my mother's Betty Crocker that she probably got as a wedding gift, it is worn to bits. But I am pretty sure most mefites would find nearly every recipe disgusting today. That is not to say that all traditional food is disgusting to us, to the contrary, what can be shown is that the overall culture has changed, while individual elements remain.
And education and inspiration can change peoples' attitudes. We have seen this happen during my lifetime (I'm 57). The general populace in all of the countries I have lived in and kept up with have changed their food culture radically, inspired by magazines and newspapers, TV shows, restaurant food and supermarket offers. In the US, people in every part of the country have grown used to foods from a multitude of cultures, if not in their own kitchens, then at restaurants and as takeaway. Most trumpists probably eat tacos, just like Trump does. Everyone eats Italian-American food, Chinese-American food and a wide range of other food-cultural offers are entering the everyday.
The big issue is wether the state should be involved in that cultural change. In some countries that is very controversial. In others it is perfectly acceptable. Can that political culture change? Maybe. Look at the huge change in perception of the role of government between Hoover and Roosevelt.
posted by mumimor at 12:40 PM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
One example of this that is often mentioned is that the tomato was unknown in Italy before Europeans found their way to the Americas. Yet today we see tomato sauce as quintessentially Italian. On a more pedestrian level, I have my mother's Betty Crocker that she probably got as a wedding gift, it is worn to bits. But I am pretty sure most mefites would find nearly every recipe disgusting today. That is not to say that all traditional food is disgusting to us, to the contrary, what can be shown is that the overall culture has changed, while individual elements remain.
And education and inspiration can change peoples' attitudes. We have seen this happen during my lifetime (I'm 57). The general populace in all of the countries I have lived in and kept up with have changed their food culture radically, inspired by magazines and newspapers, TV shows, restaurant food and supermarket offers. In the US, people in every part of the country have grown used to foods from a multitude of cultures, if not in their own kitchens, then at restaurants and as takeaway. Most trumpists probably eat tacos, just like Trump does. Everyone eats Italian-American food, Chinese-American food and a wide range of other food-cultural offers are entering the everyday.
The big issue is wether the state should be involved in that cultural change. In some countries that is very controversial. In others it is perfectly acceptable. Can that political culture change? Maybe. Look at the huge change in perception of the role of government between Hoover and Roosevelt.
posted by mumimor at 12:40 PM on April 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
I wish there was a better way to encourage people to limit their consumption of beef without turning beef into a luxury item only the rich can enjoy.
True, I have to admit in Warrior Queen's World, everyone can also afford a luxury good from time to time whether that's beef or super fancy beans or - whatever. But the fact is that beef/dairy is subsidized currently. That's providing it at a price people can afford better - but it's also not giving them a choice. So the poor are paying for it, in a sense, because money that could go to other things.
It is really complicated. I remember trading Pop Shoppe trips with my cousins for what they called "welfare cheese" in the 70s (We couldn't get that kind of cheese up here and they got huge bricks! Yes this was probably a bad trade but we all remember it fondly within our extended family.) I live in Canada so our butter and cheese are, I think, moderately more expensive already.
But at the end of the day we must confront that for others, it is a form of culinary denial.
This is true in my family, both because we have meat eaters and because when I talked to everyone about dairy as well as straight up beef, the family revolted. And that is both personal and cultural, like if we had a different background dairy might be easier to give up.
And yet...for our experience, I think making beef a treat instead of a regular thing, and eliminating sort of "cheese as all-purpose addition to everything" has actually made that one steak in the summer or that one burger taste better. I mean, that won't translate to everyone, just sharing that for me it's not all or nothing (although the economic point is still really valid.)
But it is very troubling that Republicans are trying to link climate change action to taking away your cheeseburgers.
That is a good point.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:48 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
True, I have to admit in Warrior Queen's World, everyone can also afford a luxury good from time to time whether that's beef or super fancy beans or - whatever. But the fact is that beef/dairy is subsidized currently. That's providing it at a price people can afford better - but it's also not giving them a choice. So the poor are paying for it, in a sense, because money that could go to other things.
It is really complicated. I remember trading Pop Shoppe trips with my cousins for what they called "welfare cheese" in the 70s (We couldn't get that kind of cheese up here and they got huge bricks! Yes this was probably a bad trade but we all remember it fondly within our extended family.) I live in Canada so our butter and cheese are, I think, moderately more expensive already.
But at the end of the day we must confront that for others, it is a form of culinary denial.
This is true in my family, both because we have meat eaters and because when I talked to everyone about dairy as well as straight up beef, the family revolted. And that is both personal and cultural, like if we had a different background dairy might be easier to give up.
And yet...for our experience, I think making beef a treat instead of a regular thing, and eliminating sort of "cheese as all-purpose addition to everything" has actually made that one steak in the summer or that one burger taste better. I mean, that won't translate to everyone, just sharing that for me it's not all or nothing (although the economic point is still really valid.)
But it is very troubling that Republicans are trying to link climate change action to taking away your cheeseburgers.
That is a good point.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:48 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I haven't tried any of the new faux meats. At the end of the day, if I'm not eating meat (a few times a week, maybe), I'd rather eat cheese or beans or tofu or tempeh or mushrooms or nuts. But I know some people feel like they can't give up their meat and am rooting for the alternatives to succeed.
And I've got a pretty sweet deal on meat: local, environmentally friendly meat being raised on a rocky hillside that isn't fit for even small farm grain or vegetable cultivation, grazing together in a flerd, slaughtered in the local Temple Grandin-method using slaughterhouse, sold affordably and directly from the farmer to me. And I get to eat lamb and goat and cow, support the farm, and feel good about keeping out of the factory farm system. We've got a fair amount of good, local, small-scale agriculture. But it's always going to be more expensive than factory-farmed. It's something I budget for, a luxury I'm glad is in my reach.
It's messed up that this is a huge privilege. Food that doesn't screw up the earth or the people raising it or the people eating it should be a right.
posted by carrioncomfort at 1:43 PM on April 28, 2021
And I've got a pretty sweet deal on meat: local, environmentally friendly meat being raised on a rocky hillside that isn't fit for even small farm grain or vegetable cultivation, grazing together in a flerd, slaughtered in the local Temple Grandin-method using slaughterhouse, sold affordably and directly from the farmer to me. And I get to eat lamb and goat and cow, support the farm, and feel good about keeping out of the factory farm system. We've got a fair amount of good, local, small-scale agriculture. But it's always going to be more expensive than factory-farmed. It's something I budget for, a luxury I'm glad is in my reach.
It's messed up that this is a huge privilege. Food that doesn't screw up the earth or the people raising it or the people eating it should be a right.
posted by carrioncomfort at 1:43 PM on April 28, 2021
I am in 100% agreement about the negative environmental impacts of meat and other animal products. I think there are also huge ethical issues with factory farming, even if one isn’t against killing animals. I also think it is uncool to reflexively push back against vegans or mindlessly promote bacon (carnivore fragility?).
But it is totally fine for people to think meat or cheese or whatever is delicious. It’s as fine as people loving beans and veggies. I know long time vegans who would eat meat in a second if it were possible to do within their ethical framework. It doesn’t make any sense to judge people for what tastes good to them. People don’t even control that. What matters are the choices people make and how they treat other people.
posted by snofoam at 2:53 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
But it is totally fine for people to think meat or cheese or whatever is delicious. It’s as fine as people loving beans and veggies. I know long time vegans who would eat meat in a second if it were possible to do within their ethical framework. It doesn’t make any sense to judge people for what tastes good to them. People don’t even control that. What matters are the choices people make and how they treat other people.
posted by snofoam at 2:53 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how you get from not posting any new recipes that include beef to judging people for thinking that meat or cheese are delicious, though. They're not promoting veganism. They haven't taken down all the beef recipes that were already on their site. It sometimes feels like people can't make even the most timid and non-extreme gestures towards eating less meat without having to apologize for and denounce every straw-vegan that ever existed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:14 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:14 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure how you get from not posting any new recipes that include beef to judging people for thinking that meat or cheese are delicious, though.
I don’t know if you are responding to me specifically, but my comment was related to the series of comments stemming from the one by polymodus a half-dozen comments up.
posted by snofoam at 4:40 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don’t know if you are responding to me specifically, but my comment was related to the series of comments stemming from the one by polymodus a half-dozen comments up.
posted by snofoam at 4:40 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed seeing this when it popped up, and I applaud their adaptation of the smart super villain strategy of “oh, we’re just explaining to you what we already did, and you just didn’t notice.” It’s not like there aren’t other sites to go to for beef recipes (and undoubtedly this announcement spurred the launch of at least a dozen terribly designed and poorly functioning sites festooned with American flags and being all about beef).
I moved away from beef a while back. Steak is just not as exciting or interesting to me as a good pork chop (better, but still terrible), and I’d take roast lamb over roast beef any day (much, much worse ecologically speaking than beef, which I didn’t know, and have to do some thinking about). At some point, I’m going to have to do some serious thinking about the side gig I’ve had going for several years, one that kept us above water when things got bad a couple years ago: making and selling sausage and bacon. This is not me asking if I’m the bad guy, I know I am, but on the other hand, I don’t honestly have the prospects to replace the income I get from this.
Back to the article, though, one of the most common responses was that half-smart response that “ruminants are essential to an ecosystem.” That seems to be the talking point, trying to claim that somehow our factory farms and high density feed lots have anything to do with animals grazing in a pasture. The cynicism that abounds in cherry-picking the simplest understanding of how nature works, while being (or play acting at) willfully ignorant of the realities of factory scale farming is honestly stomach turning.
Going forward (sorry, now this is my fourth topic in one comment), I think it’s incredibly important to stress education and understanding over just simply removing subsidies right off the bat. Beef is, and has been an aspirational thing for a long damn time, in a lot of countries. Eating beef is a sign of affluence (even if it’s no longer a conscious thought), a status marker, and that’s one reason for the pushback against any idea of reducing consumption. Making beef into (yet another) luxury only available to the rich isn’t going to cut demand. To me, the only way forward is to find a way to reduce that demand, to make beef less desirable, and that requires education, requires understanding of the alternatives, of things like meat as a part of a dish, not the dish itself. That requires changing the mindset, making beef less desirable, removing the concept of beef as a status marker. Without that (and I do think that is happening, slowly), there will always be this level of pushback, this level of demand that keeps things going.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:14 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I moved away from beef a while back. Steak is just not as exciting or interesting to me as a good pork chop (better, but still terrible), and I’d take roast lamb over roast beef any day (much, much worse ecologically speaking than beef, which I didn’t know, and have to do some thinking about). At some point, I’m going to have to do some serious thinking about the side gig I’ve had going for several years, one that kept us above water when things got bad a couple years ago: making and selling sausage and bacon. This is not me asking if I’m the bad guy, I know I am, but on the other hand, I don’t honestly have the prospects to replace the income I get from this.
Back to the article, though, one of the most common responses was that half-smart response that “ruminants are essential to an ecosystem.” That seems to be the talking point, trying to claim that somehow our factory farms and high density feed lots have anything to do with animals grazing in a pasture. The cynicism that abounds in cherry-picking the simplest understanding of how nature works, while being (or play acting at) willfully ignorant of the realities of factory scale farming is honestly stomach turning.
Going forward (sorry, now this is my fourth topic in one comment), I think it’s incredibly important to stress education and understanding over just simply removing subsidies right off the bat. Beef is, and has been an aspirational thing for a long damn time, in a lot of countries. Eating beef is a sign of affluence (even if it’s no longer a conscious thought), a status marker, and that’s one reason for the pushback against any idea of reducing consumption. Making beef into (yet another) luxury only available to the rich isn’t going to cut demand. To me, the only way forward is to find a way to reduce that demand, to make beef less desirable, and that requires education, requires understanding of the alternatives, of things like meat as a part of a dish, not the dish itself. That requires changing the mindset, making beef less desirable, removing the concept of beef as a status marker. Without that (and I do think that is happening, slowly), there will always be this level of pushback, this level of demand that keeps things going.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:14 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Reduce demand by reducing subsidies over a few years then instead of all at once. People will go to the grocery store, see that beef is getting more expensive and buy less of it then, if they want meat they'll get chicken or pork, which is still a better option. Maybe if we're getting rid of the subsidies for chicken and pork the relative prices of them all will stay the same but things like vegetables, tofu, or alternative meats will seem relatively cheaper and they'll get those instead except for those times when they really need meat. There is no sustainable path to meat consumption that doesn't end with it being significantly more expensive than it is right now.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:35 PM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:35 PM on April 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
It definitely needs to be more expensive, but demand will always find a supplier. Telling people they can’t have something they have always had, and believe is part of their identity and idea of what their life is supposed to look like will inspire pushback and delay progress.
There are many paths to getting to where we need to be. Some of those paths are going to be more contentious than others, and from what we’ve already seen based on the bullshit about “Biden banning burgers” the contentiousness becomes resistance, which makes everything take longer. Reduce demand, and supply will dry up: if people realize there are other things out there, other ways, they buy less beef, producers will see they can’t make a profit and reduce supply. For people that can’t be bothered to change anything about their personal lives for the greater good, telling them they can’t have what they want just makes them want it more. See also, guns, masks, the last two decades of American politics, and all the rest.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:11 PM on April 28, 2021
There are many paths to getting to where we need to be. Some of those paths are going to be more contentious than others, and from what we’ve already seen based on the bullshit about “Biden banning burgers” the contentiousness becomes resistance, which makes everything take longer. Reduce demand, and supply will dry up: if people realize there are other things out there, other ways, they buy less beef, producers will see they can’t make a profit and reduce supply. For people that can’t be bothered to change anything about their personal lives for the greater good, telling them they can’t have what they want just makes them want it more. See also, guns, masks, the last two decades of American politics, and all the rest.
posted by Ghidorah at 7:11 PM on April 28, 2021
But beef is only affordable for so many people because it's heavily subsidized.
You say "but" as though I don't already know this.
You're responding to me as though I was making a policy argument, but I wasn't. All I was doing was sharing my ambivalence (and bitterness) about how making beef more expensive means that poor people who consume it moderately won't be able to afford it at all, and rich people will continue to overconsume it.
In fact, I even said that I don't have a better idea.
I forget that MetaFilter threads are confrontational by nature, and that there's no room for ambivalence or feelings. Everything is a position that must be defended.
Tbh, I probably shouldn't have commented at all. I don't comment all that much on the Blue anymore, and this is part of the reason why. I almost never do unless I have a strong position I'm ready to argue about.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:21 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
You say "but" as though I don't already know this.
You're responding to me as though I was making a policy argument, but I wasn't. All I was doing was sharing my ambivalence (and bitterness) about how making beef more expensive means that poor people who consume it moderately won't be able to afford it at all, and rich people will continue to overconsume it.
In fact, I even said that I don't have a better idea.
I forget that MetaFilter threads are confrontational by nature, and that there's no room for ambivalence or feelings. Everything is a position that must be defended.
Tbh, I probably shouldn't have commented at all. I don't comment all that much on the Blue anymore, and this is part of the reason why. I almost never do unless I have a strong position I'm ready to argue about.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:21 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
We don't need to tell people they can't have beef, if we just introduce some friction into the process then they'll do that themselves. Gradually reducing the subsidies makes other meats or protein sources more attractive and those will replace beef for a meal or two. Not featuring beef recipes means that when someone goes to the website the tempting pictures will be for something else which they might end up making. If people's experience is that they're eating less beef and are still enjoying what they're eating then they aren't going to resent not eating as much beef and then could see the positives in it, that they already know but don't think about too much, themselves. Long term it would be great if beef wasn't eaten, or only eaten on special occasions, but for now why not start with getting people on board not eating it for a day or two a week and go from there.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:35 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:35 PM on April 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I know long time vegans who would eat meat in a second if it were possible to do within their ethical framework.
Hells yes I would. Meat is DELICIOUS. My mouth waters just thinking about the smell of roast chicken, and dear god almighty is there anything that tastes better than bacon?
When they can grow meat in a vat in a way that doesn't cause immense pain and suffering to sentient animals and doesn't accelerate climate change, it will be a very very good day in my world.
But until then, nothing tastes as good as not harming animals and helping to slow down the rate of climate change. Those two goals are simply more important to me than eating whatever I want. Is that really so strange?
posted by jesourie at 9:07 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Hells yes I would. Meat is DELICIOUS. My mouth waters just thinking about the smell of roast chicken, and dear god almighty is there anything that tastes better than bacon?
When they can grow meat in a vat in a way that doesn't cause immense pain and suffering to sentient animals and doesn't accelerate climate change, it will be a very very good day in my world.
But until then, nothing tastes as good as not harming animals and helping to slow down the rate of climate change. Those two goals are simply more important to me than eating whatever I want. Is that really so strange?
posted by jesourie at 9:07 PM on April 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I forget that MetaFilter threads are confrontational by nature, and that there's no room for ambivalence or feelings. Everything is a position that must be defended.
I thought we were having a discussion? Why is my statement about who is paying for beef now taken as an attack? I’m not a huge fan of “I’m sorry you feel that way” but...I’m sorry that you felt my “but” was confrontational - it wasn’t intended that way.
Why are you now attacking me for being “confrontational “ when FencingGal and others responded with similar points?
posted by warriorqueen at 3:18 AM on April 29, 2021
I thought we were having a discussion? Why is my statement about who is paying for beef now taken as an attack? I’m not a huge fan of “I’m sorry you feel that way” but...I’m sorry that you felt my “but” was confrontational - it wasn’t intended that way.
Why are you now attacking me for being “confrontational “ when FencingGal and others responded with similar points?
posted by warriorqueen at 3:18 AM on April 29, 2021
Warriorqueen, I think I'm actually the one who was attacked for being confrontational - the quoted sentence is mine.
I don't think my statement was confrontational or unfair, but I think going into an explanation of that will just get us further off track. I will say I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, and I'm sorry if I did.
posted by FencingGal at 6:15 AM on April 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think my statement was confrontational or unfair, but I think going into an explanation of that will just get us further off track. I will say I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, and I'm sorry if I did.
posted by FencingGal at 6:15 AM on April 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
About cultural change:
Above, I mentioned that I still have my mother's Betty Crocker from 1961. Well, this discussion made me take it out again despite the many bizarre recipes, now to see how much meat the aspirational middle class American would eat at the time.
Well, there is a simple reply on the first page of the meat section: "In deciding the amount of meat to buy for your family , allow 1/4 lb (boneless) to 12 lb (bone in) per person per meal". Which is exactly how I remember childhood meat meals. Much less meat pr. meal than many eat today. But the more complicated answer is that there was not a meat-based meal on the table every day of the week. The dishes my mother highlighted for entertainment were fancy casserole-type dishes, based on chicken, but with a very small percentage of meat.
Also, meat in 1961 was seasonal. Beef, pork, lamb, turkey, geese and ducks were recommended during fall and winter. Chicken during spring and summer. Veal all year round. Fish are in the meat section.
There are other sections, called "eggs" and "main dishes", which take up as much space in the book/binder, and it is clearly presumed that meat+ starch+veg is not an everyday meal in a middle class home. Most of all, the book is filled with recipes for different sweets. Sweet types of bread, as well as cakes and pies and other desserts, and lots of sweet condiments and sides for savory dishes. Salads are few and weird, many of them are sweet fruit salads, many of them "molded", meaning in jelly. There is sugar in the mayo and MSG in the French dressing.
Italian and Chinese food is presented as exotic and the recipes are not even close to the originals.
Generally, the recipes in the meat section are not as insane as those in the other sections, which given the popularity of Betty Crocker in the US may explain how Americans came to love meat.
Obviously, some people will experience going back to 1961 standards as a loss. (Though there is a lot of irony in wanting to go back to that period in many other aspects, but not wanting to go back to the actual economy of that age). But I think it's hard to argue that it is un-American to return to a food economy that was if not perfect, then a lot kinder to the planet that the one we have today.
posted by mumimor at 12:09 PM on April 29, 2021
Above, I mentioned that I still have my mother's Betty Crocker from 1961. Well, this discussion made me take it out again despite the many bizarre recipes, now to see how much meat the aspirational middle class American would eat at the time.
Well, there is a simple reply on the first page of the meat section: "In deciding the amount of meat to buy for your family , allow 1/4 lb (boneless) to 12 lb (bone in) per person per meal". Which is exactly how I remember childhood meat meals. Much less meat pr. meal than many eat today. But the more complicated answer is that there was not a meat-based meal on the table every day of the week. The dishes my mother highlighted for entertainment were fancy casserole-type dishes, based on chicken, but with a very small percentage of meat.
Also, meat in 1961 was seasonal. Beef, pork, lamb, turkey, geese and ducks were recommended during fall and winter. Chicken during spring and summer. Veal all year round. Fish are in the meat section.
There are other sections, called "eggs" and "main dishes", which take up as much space in the book/binder, and it is clearly presumed that meat+ starch+veg is not an everyday meal in a middle class home. Most of all, the book is filled with recipes for different sweets. Sweet types of bread, as well as cakes and pies and other desserts, and lots of sweet condiments and sides for savory dishes. Salads are few and weird, many of them are sweet fruit salads, many of them "molded", meaning in jelly. There is sugar in the mayo and MSG in the French dressing.
Italian and Chinese food is presented as exotic and the recipes are not even close to the originals.
Generally, the recipes in the meat section are not as insane as those in the other sections, which given the popularity of Betty Crocker in the US may explain how Americans came to love meat.
Obviously, some people will experience going back to 1961 standards as a loss. (Though there is a lot of irony in wanting to go back to that period in many other aspects, but not wanting to go back to the actual economy of that age). But I think it's hard to argue that it is un-American to return to a food economy that was if not perfect, then a lot kinder to the planet that the one we have today.
posted by mumimor at 12:09 PM on April 29, 2021
I don't think my statement was confrontational or unfair, but I think going into an explanation of that will just get us further off track. I will say I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, and I'm sorry if I did.
I appreciate that.
I'm coming out of a really hard year. I finished my doctorate during the pandemic and have not had a real job since. My peer network is a mixture of people who have made it and people who haven't and are terrified. Economic inequality, financial instability, depressed wages - these are all things that are taking up a lot of headspace for me right now.
Metafilter is, on average, a bunch of pretty well-off people. Not everyone is, but I felt like we were talking really, really easily about a policy change that would put beef out of reach for people. Like, yes ... beef used to be a luxury. So was air conditioning, which we also probably shouldn't be using so much. There are a lot of things that are bad for the planet that are nonetheless improvements to quality of life, and it just sucks that in our messed up, fucked up society, our best solution seems to be "make it cost more."
And this is all a reflection of how we deal with climate change.
A lot of the burdens of saving the planet fall disproportionately on poor people. Because we cannot fucking regulate or control rich people, rich companies, or rich countries - who will just pay the extra money to do what they want. We have just entirely given up on that as an idea. I don't know how we'd change the world to make that possible again, at least not without a lot of bloodshed.
And like, I'm not saying we shouldn't end beef subsidies. Or that you shouldn't disagree with your tax dollars going to a policy you think has bad or unjust effects. (I mean, I think we all do.) It's just ... yeah. Feelings. I'm sorry I snapped at you but I was sharing something that was really a raw spot and it felt like it was being poked.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:22 PM on April 30, 2021
I appreciate that.
I'm coming out of a really hard year. I finished my doctorate during the pandemic and have not had a real job since. My peer network is a mixture of people who have made it and people who haven't and are terrified. Economic inequality, financial instability, depressed wages - these are all things that are taking up a lot of headspace for me right now.
Metafilter is, on average, a bunch of pretty well-off people. Not everyone is, but I felt like we were talking really, really easily about a policy change that would put beef out of reach for people. Like, yes ... beef used to be a luxury. So was air conditioning, which we also probably shouldn't be using so much. There are a lot of things that are bad for the planet that are nonetheless improvements to quality of life, and it just sucks that in our messed up, fucked up society, our best solution seems to be "make it cost more."
And this is all a reflection of how we deal with climate change.
A lot of the burdens of saving the planet fall disproportionately on poor people. Because we cannot fucking regulate or control rich people, rich companies, or rich countries - who will just pay the extra money to do what they want. We have just entirely given up on that as an idea. I don't know how we'd change the world to make that possible again, at least not without a lot of bloodshed.
And like, I'm not saying we shouldn't end beef subsidies. Or that you shouldn't disagree with your tax dollars going to a policy you think has bad or unjust effects. (I mean, I think we all do.) It's just ... yeah. Feelings. I'm sorry I snapped at you but I was sharing something that was really a raw spot and it felt like it was being poked.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:22 PM on April 30, 2021
I'm sorry I snapped at you but I was sharing something that was really a raw spot and it felt like it was being poked.
And I appreciate that. I didn't quite finish the PhD, but I know that world, and it sucks. I hope things get better for you soon.
I agree that it's rotten that beef becomes a luxury for the rich. It does seem (and we've really seen this in the pandemic) that it's very hard to get people to behave responsibly out of altruism - so money becomes a way to get people to do the right thing. And then doing the "wrong" thing becomes something for the rich - and that's a very frustrating situation.
But one other thing I want to bring up is that the current subsidy system makes produce extremely expensive - and that's not fair to people who are poor either. Fruit consumption is associated with longevity, and the combination of price and food deserts make it very hard for people with insufficient resources to eat more healthfully. I've been a broke, single mom, and Taco Bell seemed an absolute godsend. I heard a talk by a pediatric endocrinologist - so someone who treats diabetes in children - and she works with a social worker who helps the families of these children figure out how to afford the healthier diets they need to be on. In some cases, that involves getting them bus tokens so they can even get to stores that sell the healthier foods. It's a horrific situation. This is getting away from client change, obviously, but the current system hurts people in lots of ways, and health is one of them (I saw one documentary following morbidly obese people in Australia, and it was just heartbreaking to see this man in a grocery store who had been told to eat fish looking at the price and deciding he couldn't afford it). (You may be totally aware of this, so please don't take it as a criticism of what you said. Also, in bringing up health, I don't want to downplay the awful inequalities in access to health care. That is clearly a terrible situation - but people who want to try to improve their health through lifestyle changes face a lot of roadblocks.)
Beans are cheap and can taste great, but it's not enough to tell people that. And I'm going to throw in a shoutout to the Afro-Vegan Society, one cool organization working to help people in marginalized communities change their diets.
posted by FencingGal at 7:27 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
And I appreciate that. I didn't quite finish the PhD, but I know that world, and it sucks. I hope things get better for you soon.
I agree that it's rotten that beef becomes a luxury for the rich. It does seem (and we've really seen this in the pandemic) that it's very hard to get people to behave responsibly out of altruism - so money becomes a way to get people to do the right thing. And then doing the "wrong" thing becomes something for the rich - and that's a very frustrating situation.
But one other thing I want to bring up is that the current subsidy system makes produce extremely expensive - and that's not fair to people who are poor either. Fruit consumption is associated with longevity, and the combination of price and food deserts make it very hard for people with insufficient resources to eat more healthfully. I've been a broke, single mom, and Taco Bell seemed an absolute godsend. I heard a talk by a pediatric endocrinologist - so someone who treats diabetes in children - and she works with a social worker who helps the families of these children figure out how to afford the healthier diets they need to be on. In some cases, that involves getting them bus tokens so they can even get to stores that sell the healthier foods. It's a horrific situation. This is getting away from client change, obviously, but the current system hurts people in lots of ways, and health is one of them (I saw one documentary following morbidly obese people in Australia, and it was just heartbreaking to see this man in a grocery store who had been told to eat fish looking at the price and deciding he couldn't afford it). (You may be totally aware of this, so please don't take it as a criticism of what you said. Also, in bringing up health, I don't want to downplay the awful inequalities in access to health care. That is clearly a terrible situation - but people who want to try to improve their health through lifestyle changes face a lot of roadblocks.)
Beans are cheap and can taste great, but it's not enough to tell people that. And I'm going to throw in a shoutout to the Afro-Vegan Society, one cool organization working to help people in marginalized communities change their diets.
posted by FencingGal at 7:27 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been googling about this, because seen from Europe, it seems really, really strange that meat can be cheaper than vegetables. I don't doubt what you are saying, I just don't understand how this has come about. One interview I found enlightening and frightening is this: Mark Bittman’s Beef With Capitalism. You can listen or read the transcript.
posted by mumimor at 8:59 AM on May 2, 2021
posted by mumimor at 8:59 AM on May 2, 2021
The Bittman article is behind a paywall, but it looks interesting.
I can just see the abstract of this article: Diets High in Fruits and Vegetables are More Expensive than Diets High in Fats and Sugars.
From the article: "Every extra 100 g of fats and sweets eaten decreased diet costs by 0.05 to 0.4 Euros, whereas every extra 100 g of fruit and vegetables eaten increased diet costs by 0.18 to 0.29 Euros."
Meat is high in fat, but since I can only see the abstract, I don't know how much meat enters into their calculations.
posted by FencingGal at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can just see the abstract of this article: Diets High in Fruits and Vegetables are More Expensive than Diets High in Fats and Sugars.
From the article: "Every extra 100 g of fats and sweets eaten decreased diet costs by 0.05 to 0.4 Euros, whereas every extra 100 g of fruit and vegetables eaten increased diet costs by 0.18 to 0.29 Euros."
Meat is high in fat, but since I can only see the abstract, I don't know how much meat enters into their calculations.
posted by FencingGal at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
The meatonomics website may also be a good source for you, though it's not unbiased: 10 Things I Wish All Americans Knew About the Meat and Dairy Industry.
posted by FencingGal at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by FencingGal at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure I don't pay for TNR, maybe you just have to click past the pop-up.
Here in Europe, agriculture is heavily subsidized, too. The wide-spread starvation in the first half of the 20th century traumatized policy-makers for generations. And there are lots of bad policies. But upholding cultural heritage like cheeses, wines and other special local crops has always been of equal importance to providing cheap food. And since the 1970s, animal welfare has been a big political issue that is only growing more influential each year.
Also, although this is changing, a significant majority of Europeans still cook dinner from scratch every day. Not having access to cheap produce would cause riots, and actually most supermarkets have improved their offers during my adult life, making a wider range of vegetables both cheaper and more widely available.
posted by mumimor at 9:32 AM on May 2, 2021
Here in Europe, agriculture is heavily subsidized, too. The wide-spread starvation in the first half of the 20th century traumatized policy-makers for generations. And there are lots of bad policies. But upholding cultural heritage like cheeses, wines and other special local crops has always been of equal importance to providing cheap food. And since the 1970s, animal welfare has been a big political issue that is only growing more influential each year.
Also, although this is changing, a significant majority of Europeans still cook dinner from scratch every day. Not having access to cheap produce would cause riots, and actually most supermarkets have improved their offers during my adult life, making a wider range of vegetables both cheaper and more widely available.
posted by mumimor at 9:32 AM on May 2, 2021
I can just see the abstract of this article: Diets High in Fruits and Vegetables are More Expensive than Diets High in Fats and Sugars.
I could open it through my university. It is based on a study of 837 people in France between 1988 and 1999, which seems solid*, but should be seen in the light of what I wrote above: that most supermarkets have improved their offers during my adult life, making a wider range of vegetables both cheaper and more widely available. Meats seem not to be included in the comparison, though they are part of the study (I haven't read it all), as in: you have a piece of meat, and then it is cheaper to combine it with pasta and gravy than with carrots and beans.
Actually here in Denmark and in Germany, the cheap discount store chains are market leaders when it comes to providing affordable, organic vegetables. It would be fairly easy to live as a vegan on the equivalent of 20 dollars a week here, and one can probably go lower with good planning.
In the context of this thread, specifically wether we can do anything as individuals and citizens, the changes in European food consumption during the last three decades has been driven both from a grassroots and consumer level, and from the political level, in EU and the member countries. The discount stores provide vegetables, legumes and whole grains because there is a demand. But the politicians in Bruxelles rule against GMO foods and pesticides and create better animal welfare regulations.
The slow food movement started in Italy in 1989 and spread rapidly. It is both about inspiration and encouragement and about political lobbying. And it is not the only food quality organisation. I think average European consumers and voters are much more worried than Americans about pesticides, GMO foods and animal welfare, but it is also because they have alternative options, even in the former east block, where deep poverty is still common. Which reminds me, here, quality food is an issue that goes across the aisle. Conservatives and the radical left agree on this most of the time, pressuring the center who tend to support the industry.
* Though, something that might surprise many Americans is that France, along with the UK and perhaps Iceland and Norway, is one of the countries that has embraced the American lifestyle the most. I have no idea why that is. But that old romantic tradition of the cheap roadside resto with excellent local fare disappeared decades ago. Now the microwave is king. For the last decade, there has been a back-to-basics movement, but it is quite elitist.
posted by mumimor at 10:07 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I could open it through my university. It is based on a study of 837 people in France between 1988 and 1999, which seems solid*, but should be seen in the light of what I wrote above: that most supermarkets have improved their offers during my adult life, making a wider range of vegetables both cheaper and more widely available. Meats seem not to be included in the comparison, though they are part of the study (I haven't read it all), as in: you have a piece of meat, and then it is cheaper to combine it with pasta and gravy than with carrots and beans.
Actually here in Denmark and in Germany, the cheap discount store chains are market leaders when it comes to providing affordable, organic vegetables. It would be fairly easy to live as a vegan on the equivalent of 20 dollars a week here, and one can probably go lower with good planning.
In the context of this thread, specifically wether we can do anything as individuals and citizens, the changes in European food consumption during the last three decades has been driven both from a grassroots and consumer level, and from the political level, in EU and the member countries. The discount stores provide vegetables, legumes and whole grains because there is a demand. But the politicians in Bruxelles rule against GMO foods and pesticides and create better animal welfare regulations.
The slow food movement started in Italy in 1989 and spread rapidly. It is both about inspiration and encouragement and about political lobbying. And it is not the only food quality organisation. I think average European consumers and voters are much more worried than Americans about pesticides, GMO foods and animal welfare, but it is also because they have alternative options, even in the former east block, where deep poverty is still common. Which reminds me, here, quality food is an issue that goes across the aisle. Conservatives and the radical left agree on this most of the time, pressuring the center who tend to support the industry.
* Though, something that might surprise many Americans is that France, along with the UK and perhaps Iceland and Norway, is one of the countries that has embraced the American lifestyle the most. I have no idea why that is. But that old romantic tradition of the cheap roadside resto with excellent local fare disappeared decades ago. Now the microwave is king. For the last decade, there has been a back-to-basics movement, but it is quite elitist.
posted by mumimor at 10:07 AM on May 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
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