What if our enemies know us better than we know ourselves?
May 8, 2021 2:17 PM Subscribe
1943: “The unsolved color problem is gnawing deeper and deeper like a slow venom into the unstable, social structure of the U.S.A. The color riots this summer are in all probability only the forerunners of even more serious disturbances.”The Enemy as Sociologist: American exceptionalism as diagnosed by the Nazi propaganda magazine Signal, by Sara Krolewski .
you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:25 PM on May 8, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:25 PM on May 8, 2021 [34 favorites]
Is this more "it takes one to know one" or "let's you and him fight?"
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:25 PM on May 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:25 PM on May 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
“Unusually for German propaganda, Signal’s anti-American appeals were factual and free from harsh invective.” Yipes. Truth is much stronger than Nazi-penned fiction.
This article really reminded me of how historical events are often very gray and not black and white, as the victors love to make them to be.
posted by knownassociate at 4:20 PM on May 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
This article really reminded me of how historical events are often very gray and not black and white, as the victors love to make them to be.
posted by knownassociate at 4:20 PM on May 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Nazi propaganda probably honed in on United States segregation and racial injustice in the 30's, as something to talk about in response to articles in the world press about the Nazi persecution of Jews. I don't think this indicates a deep understanding of America, it was just an obvious thing to use in propaganda. Hitler badly underestimated the willingness to fight of both Great Britain and the United States; up to the end, he seems to have thought that we inevitably would come around to seeing that only Germany could be a bulwark against the USSR, and make a peace settlement.
posted by thelonius at 4:41 PM on May 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 4:41 PM on May 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don’t know why I find this fascinating, but the Nazi publication was named Signal, while the American side’s equivalent publication was named Victory.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:00 PM on May 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:00 PM on May 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
And when you hear “the unsolved color problem,” you should remember how the Nazis would have solved it. With gas chambers.
posted by homerica at 5:27 PM on May 8, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by homerica at 5:27 PM on May 8, 2021 [22 favorites]
It's notorious that the Nazis appreciated the power of propaganda, and invested far more into it than any of the other powers. This magazine is one example, but the same could be said of Nazi heroic architecture, clothing and decorations (e.g., SS uniforms), and its theatrical mass rallies. There was really nothing comparable on the Western side.
I can't say that this comparative absence of nationalistic manipulation was bad per se, but unfortunately it does mean that Nazi imagery continues to be effective. Look at the Charlottesville racists with their tiki torches: they knew what they were doing, and so did their audience. You can't fight this love of spectacle directly: the buttons are there, even if we refrain from pushing them.
The same might be said of the fact-based critiques in Signal, as well as propaganda coming from other unsavoury quarters. E.g., an awful number of good people (as well as a good number of awful people) supported Stalin in the 1930s, on the strength of communist critiques of the West. I have much less sympathy for his Western supporters after 1939, but Soviet propaganda would probably have been less effective if the West had been willing to embrace its own internal critics.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:57 PM on May 8, 2021 [10 favorites]
I can't say that this comparative absence of nationalistic manipulation was bad per se, but unfortunately it does mean that Nazi imagery continues to be effective. Look at the Charlottesville racists with their tiki torches: they knew what they were doing, and so did their audience. You can't fight this love of spectacle directly: the buttons are there, even if we refrain from pushing them.
The same might be said of the fact-based critiques in Signal, as well as propaganda coming from other unsavoury quarters. E.g., an awful number of good people (as well as a good number of awful people) supported Stalin in the 1930s, on the strength of communist critiques of the West. I have much less sympathy for his Western supporters after 1939, but Soviet propaganda would probably have been less effective if the West had been willing to embrace its own internal critics.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:57 PM on May 8, 2021 [10 favorites]
the chronology of the 'Saturday Evenings Post' and 'Victory' praising then dumping Lindbergh is woah.
I have much less sympathy for his Western supporters after 1939
Was it the Time magazine cover or the 'invasion' of Poland.
THE ENEMY AS SOCIOLOGIST.
funny. The best soc. professor I had asked, in a totalitarian state, who are first rounded up. the SOCIOLOGIST. There are numerous examples of allied propaganda. 'Victory' is a good choice. read one, it's like a walk in the quick take. The language plain and point on to production, secrecy and killing. War time culture. Anti-American caricatures in Nazi Germany.
in 1938, Joseph Goebbels mocked the country, commenting on the way they borrowed from other countries, their unemployment rates, lynchings in the country and the economic and political scandals the country had seen. He used these examples to ridicule America as a country and insinuated that America had no right to criticize any other country considering the state that their own was in. In the speech, Goebbels said that 'it is not surprising that the New York press attacks Germany so strongly. Over two million Jews live in New York and,
yeah.
posted by clavdivs at 10:04 PM on May 8, 2021
I have much less sympathy for his Western supporters after 1939
Was it the Time magazine cover or the 'invasion' of Poland.
THE ENEMY AS SOCIOLOGIST.
funny. The best soc. professor I had asked, in a totalitarian state, who are first rounded up. the SOCIOLOGIST. There are numerous examples of allied propaganda. 'Victory' is a good choice. read one, it's like a walk in the quick take. The language plain and point on to production, secrecy and killing. War time culture. Anti-American caricatures in Nazi Germany.
in 1938, Joseph Goebbels mocked the country, commenting on the way they borrowed from other countries, their unemployment rates, lynchings in the country and the economic and political scandals the country had seen. He used these examples to ridicule America as a country and insinuated that America had no right to criticize any other country considering the state that their own was in. In the speech, Goebbels said that 'it is not surprising that the New York press attacks Germany so strongly. Over two million Jews live in New York and,
yeah.
posted by clavdivs at 10:04 PM on May 8, 2021
Great post and article. I’m more than a bit ashamed when I read
1943: “The unsolved color problem is gnawing deeper and deeper like a slow venom into the unstable, social structure of the U.S.A.
I thought it was referring to this and I was … skeptical.
posted by skyscraper at 11:03 PM on May 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
1943: “The unsolved color problem is gnawing deeper and deeper like a slow venom into the unstable, social structure of the U.S.A.
I thought it was referring to this and I was … skeptical.
posted by skyscraper at 11:03 PM on May 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's notorious that the Nazis appreciated the power of propaganda, and invested far more into it than any of the other powers. This magazine is one example, but the same could be said of Nazi heroic architecture, clothing and decorations (e.g., SS uniforms), and its theatrical mass rallies. There was really nothing comparable on the Western side.
Yeah, George Lucas didn’t lift that scene out of Triumph of the Will for Star Wars because it wasn’t effective.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:22 PM on May 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, George Lucas didn’t lift that scene out of Triumph of the Will for Star Wars because it wasn’t effective.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:22 PM on May 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
And when you hear “the unsolved color problem,” you should remember how the Nazis would have solved it. With gas chambers.
posted by homerica at 5:27 PM on May 8
Way to set the bar high for America. Mass murder, genocide, eugenic sterilization, segregation, concentration camps, slavery. All happened in America. Germany had at least a partial reckoning with what it did. I doubt the US will ever have one.
See the other thread about a black surgeon trying to buy a house in a white neighborhood of Seattle in the 1960s. The grandson of the real estate tycoon who fought against the surgeon can't imagine his grandfather was racist. How many Germans do you think would say they can't imagine their grandparents were antisemitic? There's no sense of history in the US.
posted by starfishprime at 12:43 AM on May 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by homerica at 5:27 PM on May 8
Way to set the bar high for America. Mass murder, genocide, eugenic sterilization, segregation, concentration camps, slavery. All happened in America. Germany had at least a partial reckoning with what it did. I doubt the US will ever have one.
See the other thread about a black surgeon trying to buy a house in a white neighborhood of Seattle in the 1960s. The grandson of the real estate tycoon who fought against the surgeon can't imagine his grandfather was racist. How many Germans do you think would say they can't imagine their grandparents were antisemitic? There's no sense of history in the US.
posted by starfishprime at 12:43 AM on May 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
I'm reminded of the "Battle of Brisbane", a day-long riot during WW2, where Australian soldiers rioted to try and force the Americans out, despite theoretically being allies. American forces felt themselves far superior to Australians, despite being guests in the city and despite Australian victories being critical to the war effort; Australians resented the American wealth and were appalled at the open segregation of the Americans (which were contributing factors in WW2 riots against Americans in New Zealand and Europe, as well).
America likes to portray its efforts in WW2 as the Good Guys sweeping in to beat the Nazis and save the world; in reality, it was more like your rich uncle turning up late to the wedding and then loudly proclaiming that his money paid for it.
posted by Merus at 12:49 AM on May 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
America likes to portray its efforts in WW2 as the Good Guys sweeping in to beat the Nazis and save the world; in reality, it was more like your rich uncle turning up late to the wedding and then loudly proclaiming that his money paid for it.
posted by Merus at 12:49 AM on May 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
Agreed - see also the battle of Manners Street:
Some American servicemen in the Services Club objected to Māori soldiers also using the Club, and on 3 April 1943 began stopping Māori soldiers from entering. Many New Zealand soldiers in the area, both white (Pākehā) and Māori, combined in opposition. The stand off escalated when Americans took off their belts to attack those who wanted to let the Māori in. Fights broke out and at one point at least a thousand men were involved in the subsequent fracas, which was broken up by civil and military police.
posted by Kiwi at 1:56 AM on May 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
Some American servicemen in the Services Club objected to Māori soldiers also using the Club, and on 3 April 1943 began stopping Māori soldiers from entering. Many New Zealand soldiers in the area, both white (Pākehā) and Māori, combined in opposition. The stand off escalated when Americans took off their belts to attack those who wanted to let the Māori in. Fights broke out and at one point at least a thousand men were involved in the subsequent fracas, which was broken up by civil and military police.
posted by Kiwi at 1:56 AM on May 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
There's no sense of history in the US.
Sure there is. That's why we argue over historical statues and how the subject is and is not taught in our schools.
posted by BWA at 7:37 AM on May 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Sure there is. That's why we argue over historical statues and how the subject is and is not taught in our schools.
posted by BWA at 7:37 AM on May 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
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(I’ll get me coat...)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:29 PM on May 8, 2021 [2 favorites]