Bodok, mmmm, bodok
May 10, 2021 1:11 PM Subscribe
We now have menu engineers. How some restaurants design menu weight, fonts, item positioning, boxes, pictures, and language to encourage you to buy more food. (SLBBC)
Well just reading this article made me want more food. So good job, menu designers!
posted by aubilenon at 1:32 PM on May 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 1:32 PM on May 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would a mile from a dish that described itself as 'ye olde' whatever, despite the belief of one of the engineers...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 1:34 PM on May 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 1:34 PM on May 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I dunno, one of the best menus I've seen was a picture menu since the locals mistakenly thought I didn't know their language.
posted by meowzilla at 1:39 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by meowzilla at 1:39 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Raised lettering, pale nimbus.
posted by pipeski at 1:56 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 1:56 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
As for legumes, diners can often be tricked into ordering larger plates if the menu features yellow text on a blue background...
posted by gwint at 1:57 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by gwint at 1:57 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
White
posted by alex_skazat at 2:02 PM on May 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 2:02 PM on May 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I long ago figured out that if a menu does not have a dollar sign or cent total ("10" instead of "$10" or "$9.99") it is a swank place where you are not supposed to count your dollars.
What a big, bold-print, short-list menu says to me is "you, a vegetarian, are not going to find anything much." I like to see long menu lists, particularly since they tend to come from unpretentious places.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:03 PM on May 10, 2021 [15 favorites]
What a big, bold-print, short-list menu says to me is "you, a vegetarian, are not going to find anything much." I like to see long menu lists, particularly since they tend to come from unpretentious places.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:03 PM on May 10, 2021 [15 favorites]
Where can i go to find one these...Menu things?
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:05 PM on May 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:05 PM on May 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed reading this, and it made me want to go out to a restaurant. I also appreciate chavenet's additions...I like hearing about all the tactics going on behind the scenes of something like a menu. And as a customer, heck, sometimes I'm willing to buy right into it ("ooh, local aged handcrafted sizzling crispy [noun]"), since my pleasure in the restaurant experience starts with the ambiance including what I see and read.
The bit about "protein in motion" reminds me of some of the cooking shows I have watched on YouTube, and how hard they work to get a great closeup of a perfect cheese stretch. Also, Protein In Motion sounds like either a song title, or an Adult Film.
posted by theatro at 2:11 PM on May 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
The bit about "protein in motion" reminds me of some of the cooking shows I have watched on YouTube, and how hard they work to get a great closeup of a perfect cheese stretch. Also, Protein In Motion sounds like either a song title, or an Adult Film.
posted by theatro at 2:11 PM on May 10, 2021 [16 favorites]
I have to go to restaurant websites before I go out to eat because it takes me a good thirty minutes to decide what to eat otherwise, but I do love looking at menus, like paging through some glossy magazine that just hits my lizard brain and makes me want to buy things or in this case, eat them.
I haven't been to a restaurant since March 2020.
I can't wait to go to a restaurant.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:12 PM on May 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
I haven't been to a restaurant since March 2020.
I can't wait to go to a restaurant.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:12 PM on May 10, 2021 [12 favorites]
And then there's The Cheesecake Factory menu where they basically said "Fuck it, just put everything in there."
(Apparently, the servers have to memorize the entire 20 pages, a process that eats up 50% of their two week training period.)
posted by jeremias at 2:24 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
(Apparently, the servers have to memorize the entire 20 pages, a process that eats up 50% of their two week training period.)
posted by jeremias at 2:24 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
We learned about menu design in culinary school back in the mid-80s, and I'm pretty sure the textbook we were using was first published in the 60s. This kind of thing has existed for as long as restaurant menus have existed.
It's also one of those things, similar to document design principles, that once you've learned them you can never look at a menu (or a document) the same way again.
posted by ralan at 2:26 PM on May 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
It's also one of those things, similar to document design principles, that once you've learned them you can never look at a menu (or a document) the same way again.
posted by ralan at 2:26 PM on May 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
Interesting read, thanks for posting.
I prefer short menus, they tell me that there is a high turnover of produce in the kitchen and that they know what they are doing with each menu item. At my favorite restaurant, I often know from home what I am going to order. Or I take the day's specials, based on what the chef finds at the market.
If the menu is long, I suspect that there is a whole lot of frozen food that is microwaved and maybe garnished with fresh produce.
Last week, I was in a restaurant for the first time in more than a year. I had really looked forward to the experience, not only because it was the first post-corona eating out, but also because I had read about the place before 2020 and found it interesting. Unfortunately, the menu was overwhelmingly long. We ordered a tasting menu, and some elements were very delicious, others were very much dressed up freezer food. It was probably fair value for money, though, it had a full vegetarian menu, and it was also very much a party place, with huge cocktails. If I had gone with the cocktail menu for starters, I might not have noticed the lack of ambition on the food side of things.
posted by mumimor at 2:29 PM on May 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
I prefer short menus, they tell me that there is a high turnover of produce in the kitchen and that they know what they are doing with each menu item. At my favorite restaurant, I often know from home what I am going to order. Or I take the day's specials, based on what the chef finds at the market.
If the menu is long, I suspect that there is a whole lot of frozen food that is microwaved and maybe garnished with fresh produce.
Last week, I was in a restaurant for the first time in more than a year. I had really looked forward to the experience, not only because it was the first post-corona eating out, but also because I had read about the place before 2020 and found it interesting. Unfortunately, the menu was overwhelmingly long. We ordered a tasting menu, and some elements were very delicious, others were very much dressed up freezer food. It was probably fair value for money, though, it had a full vegetarian menu, and it was also very much a party place, with huge cocktails. If I had gone with the cocktail menu for starters, I might not have noticed the lack of ambition on the food side of things.
posted by mumimor at 2:29 PM on May 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Menu engineers make a point of studying which parts of the menu are “prime real estate”—where people look first in that short 109 seconds, and (as a result) which menu items tend to be the most profitable.
Being an anti-customer I always start near the back in the middle and still struggle to find a simple burger.
One old style jewish deli in a very orthodox neighborhood stumped my curiosity though, in a basic old style menu I found the simple pastrami but then looking over wondered why I could not find Cholent, which should've been a staple. Perplexed I asked about it and it was on the front of the menu in 24pt type filling the top half of the front page. (large and extra large ;-)
posted by sammyo at 3:01 PM on May 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Being an anti-customer I always start near the back in the middle and still struggle to find a simple burger.
One old style jewish deli in a very orthodox neighborhood stumped my curiosity though, in a basic old style menu I found the simple pastrami but then looking over wondered why I could not find Cholent, which should've been a staple. Perplexed I asked about it and it was on the front of the menu in 24pt type filling the top half of the front page. (large and extra large ;-)
posted by sammyo at 3:01 PM on May 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hi— I’m from MetaFilter and I could overthink a plate of sweet, sizzling, green beans.
posted by carmicha at 3:18 PM on May 10, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 3:18 PM on May 10, 2021 [20 favorites]
Also, Protein In Motion sounds like either a song title, or an Adult Film.
Anybody have Weird Al on speed dial?
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:27 PM on May 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
Anybody have Weird Al on speed dial?
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:27 PM on May 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
Perplexed I asked about it and it was on the front of the menu in 24pt type filling the top half of the front page. (large and extra large ;-)
I've had this happen too, and I'm convinced it's banner blindness adapted from web pages.
When the menu gets long enough, there are only so many things you can "promote" and "upsell" until it feels like it needs a search function or adblocker.
posted by meowzilla at 3:50 PM on May 10, 2021 [19 favorites]
I've had this happen too, and I'm convinced it's banner blindness adapted from web pages.
When the menu gets long enough, there are only so many things you can "promote" and "upsell" until it feels like it needs a search function or adblocker.
posted by meowzilla at 3:50 PM on May 10, 2021 [19 favorites]
> After all, a “grass-fed Aberdeen Angus fillet with thick-cut rosemary fries” sounds much more appetising than a simple “steak and chips”, does it not?
I guess this happens all over now, but here in Toronto some restaurants really go overboard with this sort of language, and if you don't back it up it can really backfire. Not long before the pandemic, one of the last restaurant meals I had was at a "gastropub" where I ordered a beef stew, the description of which really went all in on the "artisanal, organic, grass-fed, local" stuff. Reader, it tasted like it came out of a Campbell's can and the disconnect between what was promised on the menu and what was delivered made it taste even worse. Sure, they talked me into ordering it but I'll never go back.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:55 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I guess this happens all over now, but here in Toronto some restaurants really go overboard with this sort of language, and if you don't back it up it can really backfire. Not long before the pandemic, one of the last restaurant meals I had was at a "gastropub" where I ordered a beef stew, the description of which really went all in on the "artisanal, organic, grass-fed, local" stuff. Reader, it tasted like it came out of a Campbell's can and the disconnect between what was promised on the menu and what was delivered made it taste even worse. Sure, they talked me into ordering it but I'll never go back.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:55 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I’m a good snob and so of course go to places with like three or four entrees. A few years ago I met a friend at an Olive Garden. Oh my god, it was so bizarre and I hated every second of it primarily because the “menu” was a tablet and you ordered using the app. It was of course fill of games and other crap. I felt like I was eating at the airport which is also an experience I hate.
And now I’m sure they’re doing A/B testing and eye-tracking with those stupid digital menus became why wouldn’t they.
TLDR: I hate Olive Garden.
posted by misterpatrick at 4:45 PM on May 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
And now I’m sure they’re doing A/B testing and eye-tracking with those stupid digital menus became why wouldn’t they.
TLDR: I hate Olive Garden.
posted by misterpatrick at 4:45 PM on May 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
gluten free options? and is it really gluten free?
posted by robbyrobs at 4:52 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by robbyrobs at 4:52 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I feel like much of the very best food I’ve had has been in very specialized places. Like in a Japan where a restaurant does regular pork tonkatsu and special black pig pork tonkatsu. Or places where you go for bbq or oysters.
In other places, I am often either trying to figure out what this specific restaurant is likely to do well, or picking something that is new to me, or something that I am not likely to make at home for whatever reason.
I also consider poor English translations to be a sign of authenticity for other cuisines. Especially when the translation is clearly coming from that language, like something being served “in her sauce” in a French restaurant.
posted by snofoam at 4:55 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
In other places, I am often either trying to figure out what this specific restaurant is likely to do well, or picking something that is new to me, or something that I am not likely to make at home for whatever reason.
I also consider poor English translations to be a sign of authenticity for other cuisines. Especially when the translation is clearly coming from that language, like something being served “in her sauce” in a French restaurant.
posted by snofoam at 4:55 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
To make a couple things more explicit:
Some of my very favorite places don’t need menu shenanigans, or even menus really.
I may be susceptible to menus that imply certain dishes are specialities of the restaurant.
posted by snofoam at 5:03 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Some of my very favorite places don’t need menu shenanigans, or even menus really.
I may be susceptible to menus that imply certain dishes are specialities of the restaurant.
posted by snofoam at 5:03 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I understand how marketing works and how brains work, but unless the verbiage is completely off-the-wall I actually do appreciate the descriptive text on menus. Yes, please do give me a general idea of what I'm about to pay money for! Do I want thick-cut fries? Maybe I want shoestring. Does the steak have a sauce component or is the dish more of a minimalist showcase for a great cut of meat? Sometimes (not always but sometimes) NOT describing is more pretentious than describing.
posted by mirepoix at 5:03 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by mirepoix at 5:03 PM on May 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
Sometimes (not always but sometimes) NOT describing is more pretentious than describing.
Oh absolutely. Some places do prix-fixe menus that just list ingredients (no details about method of preparation) seemingly only for the purposes of allergy/dietary restriction concerns. Part of what you're paying for is the theatre/drama of potentially being surprised.
posted by juv3nal at 5:14 PM on May 10, 2021
Oh absolutely. Some places do prix-fixe menus that just list ingredients (no details about method of preparation) seemingly only for the purposes of allergy/dietary restriction concerns. Part of what you're paying for is the theatre/drama of potentially being surprised.
posted by juv3nal at 5:14 PM on May 10, 2021
I spent 25 years in bar and restaurant. Menus, decore, ambience and advertising might get people to try something once, maybe. But product, service and value is what creates a lasting clientele...
posted by jim in austin at 5:57 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 5:57 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
We have a rating system for restaurants in our house that is comprised of three things:
*Ambience (booths? privacy? lighting? tables too close together? Getting hurried to leave?)
*Food (sucks or does not suck/do we both have a thing we like to order?)
*Alcohol (interesting cocktails, interesting beer, giant serving sizes of something ghastly)
So we rate restaurants on those, and a restaurant that makes us feel at ease and has decent food and good cocktails hits the top of the list. If the food and alcohol are great, but the ambience makes you feel like you should leave -- that doesn't hit the list. Booths are cozy and great. Tables ten inches from each other is a neurological nightmare.
If there is good ambience (personal space, privacy, reasonable lighting, etc), and we feel comfortable, and the alcohol is good (by our standards, as with all this criteria, it's a personal thing), shitty food is forgivable. I'll totally eat bread and butter and order more cocktails in a comfortable environment.
The scores aren't equally weighted.
I guess it comes down to -- we are in a restaurant to talk to each other. We can do that at home. So those three other things have to offer something above and beyond that.
I'm fascinated by restaurant presentation--the menu/luring part. The marketing part gets you in the door, and gets you to order, but whether you return is a combination of factors that fall under 'the experience'.
We have not yet exhausted this point of discussion in our home.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:20 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
*Ambience (booths? privacy? lighting? tables too close together? Getting hurried to leave?)
*Food (sucks or does not suck/do we both have a thing we like to order?)
*Alcohol (interesting cocktails, interesting beer, giant serving sizes of something ghastly)
So we rate restaurants on those, and a restaurant that makes us feel at ease and has decent food and good cocktails hits the top of the list. If the food and alcohol are great, but the ambience makes you feel like you should leave -- that doesn't hit the list. Booths are cozy and great. Tables ten inches from each other is a neurological nightmare.
If there is good ambience (personal space, privacy, reasonable lighting, etc), and we feel comfortable, and the alcohol is good (by our standards, as with all this criteria, it's a personal thing), shitty food is forgivable. I'll totally eat bread and butter and order more cocktails in a comfortable environment.
The scores aren't equally weighted.
I guess it comes down to -- we are in a restaurant to talk to each other. We can do that at home. So those three other things have to offer something above and beyond that.
I'm fascinated by restaurant presentation--the menu/luring part. The marketing part gets you in the door, and gets you to order, but whether you return is a combination of factors that fall under 'the experience'.
We have not yet exhausted this point of discussion in our home.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 6:20 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
I've had this happen too, and I'm convinced it's banner blindness adapted from web pages.
Wow. I, um...
...I just want to say that I think this is a thing, and it fascinates me (now) and I would like to suggest that someone smarter than I take a look at it?
Wow. Are you inside my head?
posted by aramaic at 6:59 PM on May 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wow. I, um...
...I just want to say that I think this is a thing, and it fascinates me (now) and I would like to suggest that someone smarter than I take a look at it?
Wow. Are you inside my head?
posted by aramaic at 6:59 PM on May 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've had this happen too, and I'm convinced it's banner blindness adapted from web pages.
In like 2005 I played in a puzzle hunt run by some Google employees, and there was a puzzle that had a bunch of obscure trivia like who's the head of some particular masonic lodge some specific place in Montana. The trick was that they bought up the very cheap adwords for these trivia questions and put "Playing a puzzle hunt? Click here!" ads that lead to the rest of the puzzle - but nobody noticed them or clicked them, since we were all looking for real answers and just didn't even look at the ads, because why would anyone ever do that, and that puzzle totally flopped.
posted by aubilenon at 7:11 PM on May 10, 2021 [23 favorites]
In like 2005 I played in a puzzle hunt run by some Google employees, and there was a puzzle that had a bunch of obscure trivia like who's the head of some particular masonic lodge some specific place in Montana. The trick was that they bought up the very cheap adwords for these trivia questions and put "Playing a puzzle hunt? Click here!" ads that lead to the rest of the puzzle - but nobody noticed them or clicked them, since we were all looking for real answers and just didn't even look at the ads, because why would anyone ever do that, and that puzzle totally flopped.
posted by aubilenon at 7:11 PM on May 10, 2021 [23 favorites]
My favorite part of visiting the remote taverna on the Greek island where my mother-in-law lives half the year: the menu is the nice man sitting down beside you and reciting whatever it is he has chosen to cook that day. Or sometimes texting in the morning after he's had a good night's fishing to see if we're interested in something for that night. Fascinating article doctornemo, reminding me also that it's been so long since I've been to a restaurant, let alone one with dear extended family.
posted by recklessbrother at 7:19 PM on May 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by recklessbrother at 7:19 PM on May 10, 2021 [11 favorites]
"Taking Orders," Vanity Fair, 2013
Herewith, a look at some of the lengthier tasting menus that have been testing the patience of America’s fine-diners—and at least one critic.
The styles shown in this article must still encompass something like 75% of hip menus these days.
I got to go to Charlie Trotter's (in Chicago) as a kid and I still remember the way the menu looked. Better than I can remember the food, in fact.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:45 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Herewith, a look at some of the lengthier tasting menus that have been testing the patience of America’s fine-diners—and at least one critic.
The styles shown in this article must still encompass something like 75% of hip menus these days.
I got to go to Charlie Trotter's (in Chicago) as a kid and I still remember the way the menu looked. Better than I can remember the food, in fact.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:45 PM on May 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I long ago figured out that if a menu does not have a dollar sign or cent total ("10" instead of "$10" or "$9.99") it is a swank place where you are not supposed to count your dollars.
Long ago I ate in a restaurant where the woman was handed the same menu as the man, except hers had no prices. In fairness, it was long, long ago, and it was swank swank. Émile Jung had just received his third Michelin star. I think Émile is a great name for a chef. We had Émile to remember.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:48 PM on May 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Long ago I ate in a restaurant where the woman was handed the same menu as the man, except hers had no prices. In fairness, it was long, long ago, and it was swank swank. Émile Jung had just received his third Michelin star. I think Émile is a great name for a chef. We had Émile to remember.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:48 PM on May 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I long ago figured out that if a menu does not have a dollar sign or cent total ("10" instead of "$10" or "$9.99") it is a swank place where you are not supposed to count your dollars.
What a big, bold-print, short-list menu says to me is "you, a vegetarian, are not going to find anything much." I like to see long menu lists, particularly since they tend to come from unpretentious places.
And the one vegetarian meal on their short menu will be some bullshit like
BLISTERED CHARD WITH AGAR REDUCTION | 21
...just give me a side of mac & cheese or something that I actually want. The longer the menu, the greater the chance of there being something I actually find appetising that doesn't contain animal flesh.
That said, one of my greatest pleasures in this life is reading menus online, particularly for restaurants that I'm incredibly unlikely to ever visit due to geography. And as well as the design of the actual menu itself, you also run into the web design "menu" problem where it's not clear half the time if a button marked "menu" on a restaurant's website means the website menu or the actual food menu. Some establishments work around this by calling the food menu section "food & drink" or something, others just have two buttons called "menu" and it's on you to figure out which one will allow you to read about the food.
posted by terretu at 10:54 PM on May 10, 2021 [7 favorites]
What a big, bold-print, short-list menu says to me is "you, a vegetarian, are not going to find anything much." I like to see long menu lists, particularly since they tend to come from unpretentious places.
And the one vegetarian meal on their short menu will be some bullshit like
BLISTERED CHARD WITH AGAR REDUCTION | 21
...just give me a side of mac & cheese or something that I actually want. The longer the menu, the greater the chance of there being something I actually find appetising that doesn't contain animal flesh.
That said, one of my greatest pleasures in this life is reading menus online, particularly for restaurants that I'm incredibly unlikely to ever visit due to geography. And as well as the design of the actual menu itself, you also run into the web design "menu" problem where it's not clear half the time if a button marked "menu" on a restaurant's website means the website menu or the actual food menu. Some establishments work around this by calling the food menu section "food & drink" or something, others just have two buttons called "menu" and it's on you to figure out which one will allow you to read about the food.
posted by terretu at 10:54 PM on May 10, 2021 [7 favorites]
...some bullshit like BLISTERED CHARD WITH AGAR REDUCTION | 21
I don't know what you're complaining about. It's | 26 without the reduction.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:05 PM on May 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
I don't know what you're complaining about. It's | 26 without the reduction.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:05 PM on May 10, 2021 [13 favorites]
Having made a couple menus, both for my own place, and for a place I worked at, yeah, a lot of articles exist about this out there, and textbooks, too, and some of it got a little punctured by Kitchen Confidential (especially Today's Special), but almost like clockwork, if you have a menu that opens like a book, if it's just a folded over thing with four pages or a textbook, whatever is at the top on the right is going to be a big seller. I might be someone who pours over a menu, trying to find whatever catches my fancy, but a ton of people out there just don't want to bother. Open the menu, see the first thing on the top right, and they order it. So that's where your profit comes from.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:16 PM on May 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Ghidorah at 11:16 PM on May 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
I dunno, one of the best menus I've seen was a picture menu since the locals mistakenly thought I didn't know their language.
In the Czech Republic I once visited a restaurant where the prices were higher on the German translation of the menu than on the original Czech one. This was perfectly legal.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:27 PM on May 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
In the Czech Republic I once visited a restaurant where the prices were higher on the German translation of the menu than on the original Czech one. This was perfectly legal.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:27 PM on May 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Long ago I ate in a restaurant where the woman was handed the same menu as the man, except hers had no prices.
And to this day they still don't know whether it was a woman or a man that burned the place to the ground.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:28 PM on May 10, 2021 [7 favorites]
And to this day they still don't know whether it was a woman or a man that burned the place to the ground.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:28 PM on May 10, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think the original article subscribes to the ‘people are suckers’ position, and that there is some kind of magic marketing trick to getting hungry people to buy steak. As a vegetarian who can cook, the best way for you to get my money is to have things I can’t do at home - a pizza oven, for instance.
posted by The River Ivel at 12:20 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 12:20 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Hi— I’m from MetaFilter and I could overthink a plate of sweet, sizzling, green beans.
gonna need those croutons on the side for ease of petting
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:02 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
gonna need those croutons on the side for ease of petting
posted by taquito sunrise at 2:02 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
Khinkali House Iveroni in Tbilisi was a fun study in translated menus. The Georgian one was the thickest with close to 200 dishes, then the Russian, and finally the English one. Thank heavens for photos and Google Translate, because half the dishes we wanted weren't in the English section. (Fantastic food, the amount of takeout we smuggled back to the EU was epic.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:03 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 2:03 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Crispy artisanal browned-butter locally-sourced with creamy succulent
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:17 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:17 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
PUB FEED
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on May 11, 2021
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on May 11, 2021
I realize every restaurant patron is different, but I'm wary of overly descriptive menus. Show, don't tell. The more words you put on the menu, the more likely I'm going to find one of them misspelled.
posted by emelenjr at 5:02 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 5:02 AM on May 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
Then there's the COVID-era wrinkle of being presented a QR code so that you can read the menu on your phone, for sanitation reasons...
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:15 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:15 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
To me the gold standard of menus is Shopsin’s. Nearly completely overwhelming, no space wasted, no flowery language. Kenny may be gone but that menu is forever.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:54 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:54 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
My experience is that the amount of food on the plate is inversely proportional to the number of words used to describe said food.
posted by pianissimo at 7:30 AM on May 11, 2021
posted by pianissimo at 7:30 AM on May 11, 2021
the amount of food on the plate is inversely proportional to the number of words used to describe said food
The L'Idiot menu (LA Story, 1991)
you may have the chicken.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:34 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
The L'Idiot menu (LA Story, 1991)
you may have the chicken.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:34 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Shopsin's also has the honour of being the menu that inspires me to want the most items, no matter the section, I want three different things. In a dream world, I could try one of everything!
posted by foxtongue at 8:49 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by foxtongue at 8:49 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is fascinating. That it apparently works, or at least industry professionals think it works, makes it clear we're all dangerously stupid and incapable of making reasonable decisions based on actual information. (Myself included, I'm sure, though with slightly different weaknesses than those outlined here, which I have to struggle to forgive in otherwise good restaurants.)
posted by eotvos at 9:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by eotvos at 9:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
In the Czech Republic I once visited a restaurant where the prices were higher on the German translation of the menu than on the original Czech one. This was perfectly legal.
Had the same experience in Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Poland. I was traveling with a polyglot Slovenian friend and we always got the best prices.
In the particular case of restaurants in Prague with a view of the astronomical clock there were at least three tiers. Tourist prices with view of the clock (100%), Czech prices with view of the clock (75%), Czech prices in the basement with no view of the clock (<50%). I am also pretty sure the portions in the basement were larger.
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Some of the first projects I did as a graphic designer where menus for bars and restaurants. In school we studied a little bit of the basics on how to design a menu to incentivize desired behaviors, but we did not go very deep. Basic composition stuff to draw the eye to certain areas of the menu.
One of my clients changed their menu every week and I convinced them to run some A/B testing, using a different design for half of the menus. The results were impressive. One of my favorites was to add completely meaningless symbols next to high-margin or easy to cook items and people would order them 20% to 30% more often.
The one were I like to believe I innovated, but I am sure someone will show me that it has been common practice since roman taverns, was to put a whiteboard behind the counter but visible to dinners with a 'countdown' for the very special and very high margins daily special. If we had to sell 10 of the specials, we would write down "15 of 25 $EXPENSIVE_SPECIAL sold!" and the wait staff would update it very dramatically when someone ordered. We would still write 15 of 25 if we had 50 to sell. We sold out very quickly.
posted by Dr. Curare at 10:05 AM on May 11, 2021 [12 favorites]
Had the same experience in Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Poland. I was traveling with a polyglot Slovenian friend and we always got the best prices.
In the particular case of restaurants in Prague with a view of the astronomical clock there were at least three tiers. Tourist prices with view of the clock (100%), Czech prices with view of the clock (75%), Czech prices in the basement with no view of the clock (<50%). I am also pretty sure the portions in the basement were larger.
--------
Some of the first projects I did as a graphic designer where menus for bars and restaurants. In school we studied a little bit of the basics on how to design a menu to incentivize desired behaviors, but we did not go very deep. Basic composition stuff to draw the eye to certain areas of the menu.
One of my clients changed their menu every week and I convinced them to run some A/B testing, using a different design for half of the menus. The results were impressive. One of my favorites was to add completely meaningless symbols next to high-margin or easy to cook items and people would order them 20% to 30% more often.
The one were I like to believe I innovated, but I am sure someone will show me that it has been common practice since roman taverns, was to put a whiteboard behind the counter but visible to dinners with a 'countdown' for the very special and very high margins daily special. If we had to sell 10 of the specials, we would write down "15 of 25 $EXPENSIVE_SPECIAL sold!" and the wait staff would update it very dramatically when someone ordered. We would still write 15 of 25 if we had 50 to sell. We sold out very quickly.
posted by Dr. Curare at 10:05 AM on May 11, 2021 [12 favorites]
Going to plug the simple layout of one of our favorite bike ride destinations, Blue Sage in Southampton, PA. Nowadays we get takeout and eat at a picnic table, but you can't beat their One Weird Trick: everything is vegetarian, and everything is to die for.
posted by tigrrrlily at 4:47 PM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tigrrrlily at 4:47 PM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: Going out for dinner and being surprised.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:53 PM on May 11, 2021
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:53 PM on May 11, 2021
That it apparently works, or at least industry professionals think it works, makes it clear we're all dangerously stupid and incapable of making reasonable decisions based on actual information.
I'm not sure I'd go that far, I mean the clients and company are in for the same motivations, the stakes are low, and generally the expenditure amount is decided before people even step in the door. IMO if this stuff really worked so well, then restaurants wouldn't spend their effort hiding so much food/labor cost inflation in the basic drinks, like iced tea and soda is $3 minimum now.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:13 PM on May 11, 2021
I'm not sure I'd go that far, I mean the clients and company are in for the same motivations, the stakes are low, and generally the expenditure amount is decided before people even step in the door. IMO if this stuff really worked so well, then restaurants wouldn't spend their effort hiding so much food/labor cost inflation in the basic drinks, like iced tea and soda is $3 minimum now.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:13 PM on May 11, 2021
Since going pescatarian five years ago, I now spend far less time looking at menus, because nearly all of them are meat-centric. Vegetarian restaurants are few and far between where I live. I usually don't bother with the menu anymore beyond the casual perusal. Instead, I just make sure that they carry a Caesar salad (or equivalent) and that I can sub salmon for chicken. Such is the power of removing oneself, in even a simple manner, from mainstream expectations. I imagine it's even more complicated for people with Celiac disease or certain allergies. So for people like us, the outliers, making the menu a marvel of streamlined marketing serves only a limited purpose. For me though, at least, the desserts part still works just fine. 😊
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 2:49 AM on May 12, 2021
posted by Armed Only With Hubris at 2:49 AM on May 12, 2021
gonna need those croutons on the side for ease of petting
Ten years later and it's still funny. I just shared the Shelby story with someone last week.
posted by exlotuseater at 9:24 AM on May 12, 2021
Ten years later and it's still funny. I just shared the Shelby story with someone last week.
posted by exlotuseater at 9:24 AM on May 12, 2021
Late to the party FOH lifer here. Where I work now our menu is huge, but that's in part because we have a pizza oven, a volume fried chicken machine, apps, salads soups entrees specials. We change the menu seasonally but also on the fly if something we run as a special pops.
I had paper menus printed yesterday for the first time in months as we've gone digital menu as much as possible over the last year and change. I needed them because we have our outdoor space up and running as of yesterday, and we do not have the wifi coverage out there yet to do digital menus.
I've worked for at least 20 different places of various types and concepts and I saved all the menus, handbooks, training materials I could, this shit fascinates me and is my breads, butters, jam...
With so many great and different takes on how people react to menus, let me ask: as a customer, do you prefer the host seat you with the menu, or the server brings the menus after you have been seated, or do you even care or notice the distinction?
posted by vrakatar at 9:58 PM on May 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I had paper menus printed yesterday for the first time in months as we've gone digital menu as much as possible over the last year and change. I needed them because we have our outdoor space up and running as of yesterday, and we do not have the wifi coverage out there yet to do digital menus.
I've worked for at least 20 different places of various types and concepts and I saved all the menus, handbooks, training materials I could, this shit fascinates me and is my breads, butters, jam...
With so many great and different takes on how people react to menus, let me ask: as a customer, do you prefer the host seat you with the menu, or the server brings the menus after you have been seated, or do you even care or notice the distinction?
posted by vrakatar at 9:58 PM on May 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
as a customer, do you prefer the host seat you with the menu, or the server brings the menus after you have been seated, or do you even care or notice the distinction?
For me it depends on the type of restaurant and how efficient and attentive one expects the wait staff to be. In a high volume, quicker turn over setting or where the wait staff has a large number of covers, then give me the damn menu so I can get in and out and not worry about being forgotten by a harried staff, if the expectation is a slower dining experience and the staff can be counted on to always provide timely attention, then providing the menu after seating is fine.
Outdoors seating could go either way as there is usually plenty going on to divert one's attention, so getting the menu immediately isn't a huge deal as long as you don't end up wondering if you're going to get service at all from sitting too long without attention. The busier the staff, the more the need for fewer trips to the table is my feeling basically.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:30 AM on May 13, 2021
For me it depends on the type of restaurant and how efficient and attentive one expects the wait staff to be. In a high volume, quicker turn over setting or where the wait staff has a large number of covers, then give me the damn menu so I can get in and out and not worry about being forgotten by a harried staff, if the expectation is a slower dining experience and the staff can be counted on to always provide timely attention, then providing the menu after seating is fine.
Outdoors seating could go either way as there is usually plenty going on to divert one's attention, so getting the menu immediately isn't a huge deal as long as you don't end up wondering if you're going to get service at all from sitting too long without attention. The busier the staff, the more the need for fewer trips to the table is my feeling basically.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:30 AM on May 13, 2021
Montréal is a city of food lovers; restaurants don't last long here if they don't offer good food and decent service (at least pre-pandemic).
One tradition that I love here that I don't find much elsewhere, is the posting of the complete menu just outside the front door. Sometimes it's even in a stylized little weatherproof framed & well-lit display box if it is a more upscale restaurant.
This allows prospective clients/diners to have a chance to peruse the entire menu offerings & pricing before even going into the restaurant -- saving both them *and* the staff time.
Nowadays, of course, there are digital/online menus, but this is still a fun option when you (and possibly your group of friends) are walking down a pedestrian-only area (such as Prince Arthur street) that is packed with a variety of dining options.
posted by Jade Dragon at 2:02 PM on May 13, 2021
One tradition that I love here that I don't find much elsewhere, is the posting of the complete menu just outside the front door. Sometimes it's even in a stylized little weatherproof framed & well-lit display box if it is a more upscale restaurant.
This allows prospective clients/diners to have a chance to peruse the entire menu offerings & pricing before even going into the restaurant -- saving both them *and* the staff time.
Nowadays, of course, there are digital/online menus, but this is still a fun option when you (and possibly your group of friends) are walking down a pedestrian-only area (such as Prince Arthur street) that is packed with a variety of dining options.
posted by Jade Dragon at 2:02 PM on May 13, 2021
I'm with gusottertrout re the bringing of menus. At the kind of places I frequent (more on the casual side), I prefer the menu to be given to me when seated. Mind you, at a lot of the places I frequent, you order at the counter.
At more upscale places, I do enjoy being seated and given time to enjoy the ambience and settle before being brought the menu. For various reasons (the pandemic obvs, but it's not totally to blame) I have not been to one of those kind of places in a long time.
posted by pianissimo at 7:55 AM on May 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
At more upscale places, I do enjoy being seated and given time to enjoy the ambience and settle before being brought the menu. For various reasons (the pandemic obvs, but it's not totally to blame) I have not been to one of those kind of places in a long time.
posted by pianissimo at 7:55 AM on May 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you brought me a wine list, and I didn't order wine when ordering food but still have the wine list in front of me because I didn't return it with my menu, then ask me if I want to order wine or will be needing the wine list or something -- rather than silently imploring me for it with an outstretched arm and raised eyebrow, or reaching between my arms to collect it from the table.
Also I am either done, or am not done, but I am not in any case "still working on that."
Presuming it was cooked properly, at least.
(OK, this isn't the FOH peeve thread but I couldn't resist)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:55 PM on May 21, 2021
Also I am either done, or am not done, but I am not in any case "still working on that."
Presuming it was cooked properly, at least.
(OK, this isn't the FOH peeve thread but I couldn't resist)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:55 PM on May 21, 2021
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Menu Design
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posted by chavenet at 1:20 PM on May 10, 2021 [8 favorites]