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May 11, 2021 1:38 AM Subscribe
This is complicated, though. Here in Denmark, the publisher explicitly said they were looking for a translator who was a person of color, as advised by Gorman's US publisher. And they chose a very talented young poet. But as I read the reviews, (I haven't read the Danish translation, because why would I?), the translator very obviously has no knowledge of the American tradition of poetry and oratory, which again leads to some bad choices in the translation. The snippets they have quoted in their reviews confirm this.
Also, while it makes sense to choose a young poet for the translation of a young poet's work, it can also backfire, because sometimes you need experience. And you have to be very good at both languages. I know a couple of Black people here who would probably have made better translations, but they are older, and not female. Would that have been a problem?
I don't know, I have done some translation, though not of poetry, and it is hard. I've made mistakes, that were thankfully sorted by my publisher. I feel the German approach, where a diverse group of people work together, seems to be a good choice in this case, where it is a very significant text that you want out relatively soon after the inauguration.
posted by mumimor at 2:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, while it makes sense to choose a young poet for the translation of a young poet's work, it can also backfire, because sometimes you need experience. And you have to be very good at both languages. I know a couple of Black people here who would probably have made better translations, but they are older, and not female. Would that have been a problem?
I don't know, I have done some translation, though not of poetry, and it is hard. I've made mistakes, that were thankfully sorted by my publisher. I feel the German approach, where a diverse group of people work together, seems to be a good choice in this case, where it is a very significant text that you want out relatively soon after the inauguration.
posted by mumimor at 2:40 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
"Barrios, of course, is fine with a world where only whites are translating everything."
What an uncharitable interpretation of a legitimate point of view. Way to start the conversation with such a bad faith argument.
posted by micketymoc at 2:43 AM on May 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
What an uncharitable interpretation of a legitimate point of view. Way to start the conversation with such a bad faith argument.
posted by micketymoc at 2:43 AM on May 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
That is an accurate assessment of the current status of translation in Spain and I'm not feeling particularly charitable. A few weeks ago Silvia Moreno-Garcia was told by her Spanish publisher that "Mexican Gothic" would be translated from the English original to Castilian Spanish for its publication here -- the internet uproar made them back up and say that they would try to translate it to Mexican Spanish. That is the status quo.
posted by sukeban at 3:05 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by sukeban at 3:05 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
There is a definite need for more diversity in translation. We could start by not having the same translator or same small group of translators pretty much translate everything from that source language into English. If a translator adds their own voice - and that is definitely the case - then everything is funneled through that voice.
Almost everything you have read in Portuguese and a lot of Spanish is Margaret Jull-Costa you are reading for example. Her words, her choices. It narrows the literature in my opinion.
That is I think there are two points being made here. The first, that translation needs more diversity, is obviously true. The second, as to who gets to translate which particular work, is a different topic for discussion but to even start having that discussion you need to address the first point.
posted by vacapinta at 3:43 AM on May 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
Almost everything you have read in Portuguese and a lot of Spanish is Margaret Jull-Costa you are reading for example. Her words, her choices. It narrows the literature in my opinion.
That is I think there are two points being made here. The first, that translation needs more diversity, is obviously true. The second, as to who gets to translate which particular work, is a different topic for discussion but to even start having that discussion you need to address the first point.
posted by vacapinta at 3:43 AM on May 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
Here are a couple other takes on the subject, the first is an essay by Mridula Nath Chakraborty from The Conversation that looks at the various, sometimes conflicting, demands and costs in translating, and the second is an article from the Washington Post that focuses more on the issues and failures in the industry around translating.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:10 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 4:10 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is such a fascinating debate for me because it seems like poetry translation is such a specific, subjective, individual relationship between poet and translator (although I guess that’s not true for “small-market” languages where the publisher takes on more control over the process? I guess I was thinking Milosz - Hass although I am no expert!)
In any case where I think the debate gets interesting is the point at which the general (there are no black translators) becomes specific (what does this word mean here now to me)
posted by The Ted at 4:56 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
In any case where I think the debate gets interesting is the point at which the general (there are no black translators) becomes specific (what does this word mean here now to me)
posted by The Ted at 4:56 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
It’s an unusually rich intersection of issues that are at stake here, and it’s fascinating to see how they are playing out across different languages and cultures.
Here in Italy a Translator’s chapter of a major union felt it was the right occasion to put out a statement upholding translation workers’ rights in the face of publicity-driven editors’ opportunism. (To the dismay of a number of their members.) Writer Claudia Durastanti’s engaged thoughts on the matter seemed a more useful take.
Seems to me what it’s fundamentally about is the gatekeeping that’s structural to a certain part of the publishing world, who gets to have a say, who doesn’t, and why. It’s by no means clear it‘s reducible to author’s privilege only. The faultlines of the industry that these various rifts have exposed could at least offer a clearer analysis of what might deserve addressing, towards a less rarified stratosphere of big L literature.
posted by progosk at 5:41 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Here in Italy a Translator’s chapter of a major union felt it was the right occasion to put out a statement upholding translation workers’ rights in the face of publicity-driven editors’ opportunism. (To the dismay of a number of their members.) Writer Claudia Durastanti’s engaged thoughts on the matter seemed a more useful take.
Seems to me what it’s fundamentally about is the gatekeeping that’s structural to a certain part of the publishing world, who gets to have a say, who doesn’t, and why. It’s by no means clear it‘s reducible to author’s privilege only. The faultlines of the industry that these various rifts have exposed could at least offer a clearer analysis of what might deserve addressing, towards a less rarified stratosphere of big L literature.
posted by progosk at 5:41 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Durastanti also provides a link to an underreported, telling comment by the Catalan translator Obiols, who was also relieved of the job (but will be paid, as he had already started on it): “ Tendré que buscar betún...” = I guess I need to stock up on tar...
posted by progosk at 5:55 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by progosk at 5:55 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Am I the only one who thought this was going to be a story about translating the vision of America in the poem into reality?
Disappointing.
posted by dlugoczaj at 7:03 AM on May 11, 2021
Disappointing.
posted by dlugoczaj at 7:03 AM on May 11, 2021
You can't translate poetry. Not really. It's like trying to write out what something smells like, or sounds like. You can get some sense of it, and some poets would be easier to translate than others, but no matter what much is lost in translation.
Quibbling over the race or sexuality of the translator is beyond ridiculous. I'm guessing most who complain would seek to know the race/sexuality of the translator first- then look to be critical (as opposed to reading the work first and judging it on the merits).
posted by Patapsco Mike at 7:07 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Quibbling over the race or sexuality of the translator is beyond ridiculous. I'm guessing most who complain would seek to know the race/sexuality of the translator first- then look to be critical (as opposed to reading the work first and judging it on the merits).
posted by Patapsco Mike at 7:07 AM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
You can't translate poetry.
You're reaching for some sort of ad absurdum here, but I think you might be misreading the room.
Quibbling over the race or sexuality of the translator is beyond ridiculous.
Yes, you're definitely misreading the room.
posted by progosk at 7:42 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
You're reaching for some sort of ad absurdum here, but I think you might be misreading the room.
Quibbling over the race or sexuality of the translator is beyond ridiculous.
Yes, you're definitely misreading the room.
posted by progosk at 7:42 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
"In hindsight, we should have known that the topic of translation on MetaFilter would elicit many strong opinions."
I also have strong opinions. This topic, in my opinion (!) is so dense and layered and fascinating that I cannot think of a single, reductive statement that always and forever holds true. If it's a great work, and it lives on for many generations into the far distant future, then whatever we think now may be irrelevant to those who esteem the work then. And whatever we think now is perfectly valid also. How fortunate are we, to be alive? To agree and disagree.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:44 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I also have strong opinions. This topic, in my opinion (!) is so dense and layered and fascinating that I cannot think of a single, reductive statement that always and forever holds true. If it's a great work, and it lives on for many generations into the far distant future, then whatever we think now may be irrelevant to those who esteem the work then. And whatever we think now is perfectly valid also. How fortunate are we, to be alive? To agree and disagree.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:44 AM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
A native-English-speaker high school friend of mine has ended up becoming a translator of poetry from Spanish, and it's been very interesting to see, over the years, her credits more often include "translated by [native speaker] and [my friend]" as well as the usual "translated by [my friend]". I'm not an expert (and this friends and I are now mostly "pictures of her kid" friends rather than "talk about work" friends) but it seems to me that this is a really interesting way to approach things.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:59 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 7:59 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Not sure if this is the same room but McCulloch & Gawne had an interesting 30min Lingthusiasm episode in which they "get enthusiastic about the relationship of the translator and the text. We talk about the new, updated translation of Beowulf by Maria Dahvana Headley (affectionately known as the “bro” translation), reading the Tale of Genji in multiple translations, translating conlangs in fiction, and mistranslation on the Scots Wikipedia".
posted by BobTheScientist at 8:03 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 8:03 AM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have been following this debate out of professional interest too and I found this piece by Haidee Kotze a very useful summary of positions and a cogent explanation of the many sides of the issue.
posted by fregoli at 9:56 AM on May 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by fregoli at 9:56 AM on May 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
fregoli, the piece you linked to helped me understand what was problematic about both Marieke Lucas Rijneveld and the Danish translator (I'm deliberately not naming her because I feel she deserves recognition for her own poetry, not her translation efforts). First of all, almost everything I want to say is in there, so to those who haven't, read that article.
There are things I'd like to highlight though, like this insight, buried in the notes:
In the US, there is a living, popular oral tradition that has no equivalent in Europe, though there are certainly some spoken word artists in Europe and a subset of poets whose works are in dialogue with spoken word traditions. There is also a level of romantic heroism that is more acceptable in the US than in Europe. Not that it can't ever be done here, just that you need to be well aware of what you are doing to pull it off. People who are randomly "other" in a European context might be the last to be able to translate Gorman's poem, since they are rightly and fairly preoccupied with their own projects and conditions.
On the other hand, what vacapinta says about the same voice of one (or few) translators doing all the translations from one language is also a problem. The best translations from Italian here come from one brilliant person who is a good author in his own right. But would a sixty year old white man be the right person to give voice to a 22 year old black woman? I don't think so.
Then again, my youngest child is 22. I don't think she or any of her friends have enough relevant understanding of American culture to represent the thinking of Amanda Gorman. That is why I like the German approach. Combine the efforts!
posted by mumimor at 11:49 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are things I'd like to highlight though, like this insight, buried in the notes:
A related argument that may be raised here is that the publisher’s defence is premised on treating the fact of being an Other to the dominant culture as equivalent: All Others are the same; if you are an Other in respect of gender identity, you are sufficiently qualified to speak on behalf of all other Others. This, in itself, signals the ‘invisibility’ of complex issues of diversity, representativeness and intersectionality in the decision, highlighted above.Which leads on to the (to me) most important issue. As a translator, you need to have insight into and compassion with the cultural and social context of the author you are translating. It isn't just about translating the literal words or giving them a poetic form that works in the new language. You want the translation to carry with it the emotional and literary connotations it had in its original form.
In the US, there is a living, popular oral tradition that has no equivalent in Europe, though there are certainly some spoken word artists in Europe and a subset of poets whose works are in dialogue with spoken word traditions. There is also a level of romantic heroism that is more acceptable in the US than in Europe. Not that it can't ever be done here, just that you need to be well aware of what you are doing to pull it off. People who are randomly "other" in a European context might be the last to be able to translate Gorman's poem, since they are rightly and fairly preoccupied with their own projects and conditions.
On the other hand, what vacapinta says about the same voice of one (or few) translators doing all the translations from one language is also a problem. The best translations from Italian here come from one brilliant person who is a good author in his own right. But would a sixty year old white man be the right person to give voice to a 22 year old black woman? I don't think so.
Then again, my youngest child is 22. I don't think she or any of her friends have enough relevant understanding of American culture to represent the thinking of Amanda Gorman. That is why I like the German approach. Combine the efforts!
posted by mumimor at 11:49 AM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yes - my challenge with the German approach is: If translation is an art form in and of itself, do you need an individual point-of-view to be able to develop a compelling work? I know that collaboration, etc. can be helpful but perhaps at the end of the day you need one person to say "yes this is my perspective". I could see an averaging out of strong views creating an average work - one that's afraid to make consistent choices. On the other hand, if translators should be invisible, maybe that's not a bad thing!
Fregoli's article makes the argument that features of Gorman's identity (blackness, female, young, spoken word) help make the work compelling and cannot be separated. I re-watched the reading and I struggled with that argument. The poem talks about blackness and injustice in the broad context of history (vs. specifics of her lived experience --- granted she does insert herself specifically into the poem, but again this is to make a broader point about where we are in this broad sweep of history). It doesn't talk much about being female. It does have a message of go-forward hope that is young, and the spoken word cadences are important and were meaningful to me.
I found Gorman's identity compelling in the specific place and time of the reading --- and the poem also compelling. They built upon one another to generate meaning but I think they are still separable. Curious to hear others' thoughts.
posted by The Ted at 12:48 PM on May 11, 2021
Fregoli's article makes the argument that features of Gorman's identity (blackness, female, young, spoken word) help make the work compelling and cannot be separated. I re-watched the reading and I struggled with that argument. The poem talks about blackness and injustice in the broad context of history (vs. specifics of her lived experience --- granted she does insert herself specifically into the poem, but again this is to make a broader point about where we are in this broad sweep of history). It doesn't talk much about being female. It does have a message of go-forward hope that is young, and the spoken word cadences are important and were meaningful to me.
I found Gorman's identity compelling in the specific place and time of the reading --- and the poem also compelling. They built upon one another to generate meaning but I think they are still separable. Curious to hear others' thoughts.
posted by The Ted at 12:48 PM on May 11, 2021
WIth any form of collaboration, it is wise to make it clear what every individual brings to the table, and to let that person have the final say in those matters where they are the chosen expert.
During today's discussion, I have realized that the translated title of the poem in Danish is a very good example of the problems here.
In Danish, the title is "Bjerget vi bestiger" -- "The Mountain We Climb". Now this is complicated, because there is no doubt that Bjerget vi bestiger is more poetic and evocative in Danish than Bakken vi bestiger, or Bakken vi betræder, the more direct translations. But "the hill" in American English points to very significant texts in American history, that can't be left out of the popular and literary understanding of Gorman's poem. And if you were to translate the concept of "The City on the Hill" to Danish, you would never use Bjerget, you would definitely use Bakken. And the metaphor that you are still climbing that hill has no direct Danish equivalent, though God knows Danish people of color are still struggling to find respect and acknowledgement.
I don't have a solution, and this is just the first of hundreds of similar problems in the text, but I think that I would go with Bakken vi betræder, because it indicates both the pride, the insistence, and the realistic fear of a Black person insisting on their right to go there, up onto the hill. The use of "bakken" ( the hill) instead of "bjerget" (the mountain) also underlines the reality and domesticity of the situation. This is not about Mount Everest, it is about fundamental rights.
The problem in Danish is that the references are not well known, so the heroism of the hidden quote will have to appear in other places than the title, if possible.
(One of my students just last week thanked me for not going into the type of analysis above, and now I did it. So I will not go through the whole text this way. I hope you get the point).
posted by mumimor at 1:55 PM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
During today's discussion, I have realized that the translated title of the poem in Danish is a very good example of the problems here.
In Danish, the title is "Bjerget vi bestiger" -- "The Mountain We Climb". Now this is complicated, because there is no doubt that Bjerget vi bestiger is more poetic and evocative in Danish than Bakken vi bestiger, or Bakken vi betræder, the more direct translations. But "the hill" in American English points to very significant texts in American history, that can't be left out of the popular and literary understanding of Gorman's poem. And if you were to translate the concept of "The City on the Hill" to Danish, you would never use Bjerget, you would definitely use Bakken. And the metaphor that you are still climbing that hill has no direct Danish equivalent, though God knows Danish people of color are still struggling to find respect and acknowledgement.
I don't have a solution, and this is just the first of hundreds of similar problems in the text, but I think that I would go with Bakken vi betræder, because it indicates both the pride, the insistence, and the realistic fear of a Black person insisting on their right to go there, up onto the hill. The use of "bakken" ( the hill) instead of "bjerget" (the mountain) also underlines the reality and domesticity of the situation. This is not about Mount Everest, it is about fundamental rights.
The problem in Danish is that the references are not well known, so the heroism of the hidden quote will have to appear in other places than the title, if possible.
(One of my students just last week thanked me for not going into the type of analysis above, and now I did it. So I will not go through the whole text this way. I hope you get the point).
posted by mumimor at 1:55 PM on May 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
> I have been following this debate out of professional interest too and I found this piece by Haidee Kotze a very useful summary of positions and a cogent explanation of the many sides of the issue.
Thanks, this is a good summary. But I do find it difficult to reconcile this criticism of Meulenhoff, from footnote 3,
A related argument that may be raised here is that the publisher’s defence is premised on treating the fact of being an Other to the dominant culture as equivalent: All Others are the same; if you are an Other in respect of gender identity, you are sufficiently qualified to speak on behalf of all other Others. This, in itself, signals the ‘invisibility’ of complex issues of diversity, representativeness and intersectionality in the decision, highlighted above.
with this:
The choice of translator, in this case, is similarly part of the message. It’s about the opportunity, the space for visibility created by the act of translation, and who gets to occupy that space. In choosing Rijneveld as translator, the publisher missed an opportunity to carry the importance of this visibility into the Dutch cultural space by giving a black translator the same ‘podium’ as Gorman represents.
Does anyone have an explanation of how this is not “treating the fact of being black in two different cultures as equivalent: black people in all countries are the same”? I am pretty certain that the views on ethnicity in the Netherlands are sufficiently different from those in the US that so that a hypothetical black translator wouldn’t be on “the same podium” in any meaningful sense. I could not agree more that we should put in a lot of effort to fill the space for visibility, which I find a wonderful concept, with people as diverse as we possibly can. But why do we have to stop at comparing an author and a translator by the colour of their skin, when marginalisation is clearly a lot more complex than that? Yes, Joe Biden has chosen Gorman and her poem because of what her identity means in the American context, but the American context is unique. Why do we have to assume that a black woman living in the Netherlands would “carry the importance of this visibility into the Dutch cultural space”? I honestly do not think it would, not any more than a Muslim, a Romani or a non-binary translator would; not because their Othernesses are interchangeable, but simply because the place that the African-American community has in the society of the US does not exist in the Netherlands.
Basically, whichever parallels we try to enforce between an author and their translator, it’s always going to be a rough fit, and I feel uneasy about just assuming that ethnicity must be a (or the, as John McWhorter suggests in the NYT link) particularly central aspect of one’s identity, completely ignoring the broader cultural context.
posted by wachhundfisch at 2:55 PM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Thanks, this is a good summary. But I do find it difficult to reconcile this criticism of Meulenhoff, from footnote 3,
A related argument that may be raised here is that the publisher’s defence is premised on treating the fact of being an Other to the dominant culture as equivalent: All Others are the same; if you are an Other in respect of gender identity, you are sufficiently qualified to speak on behalf of all other Others. This, in itself, signals the ‘invisibility’ of complex issues of diversity, representativeness and intersectionality in the decision, highlighted above.
with this:
The choice of translator, in this case, is similarly part of the message. It’s about the opportunity, the space for visibility created by the act of translation, and who gets to occupy that space. In choosing Rijneveld as translator, the publisher missed an opportunity to carry the importance of this visibility into the Dutch cultural space by giving a black translator the same ‘podium’ as Gorman represents.
Does anyone have an explanation of how this is not “treating the fact of being black in two different cultures as equivalent: black people in all countries are the same”? I am pretty certain that the views on ethnicity in the Netherlands are sufficiently different from those in the US that so that a hypothetical black translator wouldn’t be on “the same podium” in any meaningful sense. I could not agree more that we should put in a lot of effort to fill the space for visibility, which I find a wonderful concept, with people as diverse as we possibly can. But why do we have to stop at comparing an author and a translator by the colour of their skin, when marginalisation is clearly a lot more complex than that? Yes, Joe Biden has chosen Gorman and her poem because of what her identity means in the American context, but the American context is unique. Why do we have to assume that a black woman living in the Netherlands would “carry the importance of this visibility into the Dutch cultural space”? I honestly do not think it would, not any more than a Muslim, a Romani or a non-binary translator would; not because their Othernesses are interchangeable, but simply because the place that the African-American community has in the society of the US does not exist in the Netherlands.
Basically, whichever parallels we try to enforce between an author and their translator, it’s always going to be a rough fit, and I feel uneasy about just assuming that ethnicity must be a (or the, as John McWhorter suggests in the NYT link) particularly central aspect of one’s identity, completely ignoring the broader cultural context.
posted by wachhundfisch at 2:55 PM on May 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have an explanation of how this is not “treating the fact of being black in two different cultures as equivalent: black people in all countries are the same”? I am pretty certain that the views on ethnicity in the Netherlands are sufficiently different from those in the US that so that a hypothetical black translator wouldn’t be on “the same podium” in any meaningful sense.
I think many white Dutch people would believe that the Black experience in the Netherlands is entirely different than the Black experience in the US. But I think Black people in both places would find a lot of commonality in their struggles. Both countries made vast fortunes from the labor of enslaved Africans. Both the US and the Kingdom of the Netherlands have vast inequality between white and Black populations (though in the Netherlands many of these people live in the Dutch Caribbean). Black historians are fighting to bring out the truth about Dutch slaveholders, which has been presented in a highly distorted way for generations. Black activists are still fighting to curb blatantly racist things like Zwarte Piet, which the current Prime Minister defended just a few years ago. This very similar colonial and post colonial history isn’t shared by all Black people in these countries, of course. But it has a lot more commonality than someone who has faced a totally different kind of discrimination.
Also, one of the big issues with substituting types of otherness is that you can still end up in a world where no Black translators are getting work, which is a huge problem.
posted by snofoam at 3:18 PM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think many white Dutch people would believe that the Black experience in the Netherlands is entirely different than the Black experience in the US. But I think Black people in both places would find a lot of commonality in their struggles. Both countries made vast fortunes from the labor of enslaved Africans. Both the US and the Kingdom of the Netherlands have vast inequality between white and Black populations (though in the Netherlands many of these people live in the Dutch Caribbean). Black historians are fighting to bring out the truth about Dutch slaveholders, which has been presented in a highly distorted way for generations. Black activists are still fighting to curb blatantly racist things like Zwarte Piet, which the current Prime Minister defended just a few years ago. This very similar colonial and post colonial history isn’t shared by all Black people in these countries, of course. But it has a lot more commonality than someone who has faced a totally different kind of discrimination.
Also, one of the big issues with substituting types of otherness is that you can still end up in a world where no Black translators are getting work, which is a huge problem.
posted by snofoam at 3:18 PM on May 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't doubt that there are similarities between the experiences of black people in both countries, but as far as I understand Prof. Kotze's article, this is beside the point. Her argument is precisely that this is not the reason why the ethnicity of the translator matters, but that it is about the effect it would have on the audience instead.
posted by wachhundfisch at 3:41 PM on May 11, 2021
posted by wachhundfisch at 3:41 PM on May 11, 2021
it is about the effect it would have on the audience instead
The visibility of having a Black Dutch translator would be beneficial for many of the same reasons US audiences benefited from having a Black American poet recite at the inauguration. Both groups have been subject to enslavement, discrimination, segregation, etc. In both cases, society benefits from being able to see them as people, citizens, creators, etc. There's really no contradiction in the two passages you quoted, even though the two countries are different.
posted by snofoam at 4:42 PM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
The visibility of having a Black Dutch translator would be beneficial for many of the same reasons US audiences benefited from having a Black American poet recite at the inauguration. Both groups have been subject to enslavement, discrimination, segregation, etc. In both cases, society benefits from being able to see them as people, citizens, creators, etc. There's really no contradiction in the two passages you quoted, even though the two countries are different.
posted by snofoam at 4:42 PM on May 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Again, I am 100% in favour of using this opportunity to give more visibility to a translator from a group that has been marginalised by society; the benefits of such an approach are obviously enormous. But I still find this pinpoint focus on a specific ethnicity to be so awfully reductive. What is this really about? Consider the three million people with Indonesian roots in the Netherlands: Are their lived experiences and their standing in Dutch society really so different from those of Dutch with African ancestry that we can justify outright denying all of them the chance to fill this space for visibility? I don’t want to think that their ancestors coming from a different continent (or, worse, their epidermal melanin concentration not crossing a certain threshold) is enough to disqualify them from translating the works of a poet who lives on yet another continent.
I am very curious about Ms Gorman’s personal opinion on all of this, and that of non-white translators in the Netherlands (of which there probably are not many). I have a feeling that they would have many interesting views to contribute to this discussion.
posted by wachhundfisch at 12:03 AM on May 12, 2021
I am very curious about Ms Gorman’s personal opinion on all of this, and that of non-white translators in the Netherlands (of which there probably are not many). I have a feeling that they would have many interesting views to contribute to this discussion.
posted by wachhundfisch at 12:03 AM on May 12, 2021
Seems like you're drilling down on a suspicion of reverse racism on the part of Kotze.
that of non-white translators in the Netherlands
Will Canan Marasligil's suffice for you?
For more from the Italian context (where the publisher was comfortable sticking with the translator they chose, Francesca Spinelli), here's a googletranslation of an amply contextualised interview with her, plus an article of hers from July 2020 on blackness and the translator's dilemma.
posted by progosk at 1:24 AM on May 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
that of non-white translators in the Netherlands
Will Canan Marasligil's suffice for you?
For more from the Italian context (where the publisher was comfortable sticking with the translator they chose, Francesca Spinelli), here's a googletranslation of an amply contextualised interview with her, plus an article of hers from July 2020 on blackness and the translator's dilemma.
posted by progosk at 1:24 AM on May 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Reading the article and thread made me remember a book about the art of translation I read 20 years ago, Le Ton beau de Marot by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:12 AM on May 12, 2021
posted by ob1quixote at 9:12 AM on May 12, 2021
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Ms. Barrios wrote that she did not want a world where “only whites can translate whites, only women can translate women, only trans people can translate trans people,” she added.
Barrios, of course, is fine with a world where only whites are translating everything. Which is precisely the goddamn problem.
posted by sukeban at 2:15 AM on May 11, 2021 [5 favorites]