WE ALL QUIT
May 17, 2021 8:03 AM Subscribe
Restaurant Signs Claiming Staff Walking Out Are Popping Up Across U.S. from Newsweek, via naked capitalism. "On a list of the 100 lowest paying jobs in the U.S., food cooking machine operators and tenders rank 94, cooks rank 71, bakers rank 56, restaurant cooks rank 34, and bartenders rank 26..."
".. Furthermore, food preparation and serving related workers rank 21, waiters and waitresses rank 20, food servers outside of restaurants rank 19, cooks at quick-service restaurants and coffee shops rank 16, food preparation workers rank 14, and dining room and cafeteria attendants and bartender helpers rank 10.
Finally, dishwashers have the fifth-lowest paying job in the U.S., hosts at restaurants, lounges, and coffee shops are fourth, fast food and counter workers are third, and fast-food cooks have the overall lowest paying job, with an annual mean wage of $24,300, 56.8 percent below mean for all occupations."
".. Furthermore, food preparation and serving related workers rank 21, waiters and waitresses rank 20, food servers outside of restaurants rank 19, cooks at quick-service restaurants and coffee shops rank 16, food preparation workers rank 14, and dining room and cafeteria attendants and bartender helpers rank 10.
Finally, dishwashers have the fifth-lowest paying job in the U.S., hosts at restaurants, lounges, and coffee shops are fourth, fast food and counter workers are third, and fast-food cooks have the overall lowest paying job, with an annual mean wage of $24,300, 56.8 percent below mean for all occupations."
After decades of being told these jobs are worthless and that if people want to get paid better they should go find better employment, employees are listening. If $1200/month is enough to keep people from working at bad jobs where they're treated as disposable, the problem isn't with unemployment, it's that wages are too low to begin with.
It's telling that none of these franchise owners are showing up to flip burgers themselves. For people who complain that nobody wants to work anymore, they're oddly unwilling to drag themselves out of bed at 5am for the breakfast rush.
posted by mikesch at 8:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [164 favorites]
It's telling that none of these franchise owners are showing up to flip burgers themselves. For people who complain that nobody wants to work anymore, they're oddly unwilling to drag themselves out of bed at 5am for the breakfast rush.
posted by mikesch at 8:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [164 favorites]
I heard an interview on local public radio talking to a bar owner who was open fewer days than he wished because he lacked the staff. Finally journalists are asking the obvious question: "Why not raise wages?"
According to this dude, wages are already high ("Minneapolis is on a track to a $15 minimum wage" - note that means they are not currently making the $15/hr people were demanding 10 years ago!) and the problem is simply the expanded unemployment benefits.
I guess he doesn't do economics, because if your wages can't compete with "wow I can just barely make rent" then I guess you could... raise... wages.
Anyway still waiting for daily interviews with restaurants workers to explain "the job sucks, the customers suck, the wages suck and a bunch of my coworkers got sick or died."
Last time I got takeout I handed a tip to the highschooler working the window. I had already paid and he was confused. "What's this for?" If this kid is getting so little in tips that he doesn't understand the process of tipping I'm giving side eye to every other customer approaching that restaurant! What the hell??
I hope this movement continues and grows. Power to the people!
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:32 AM on May 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
According to this dude, wages are already high ("Minneapolis is on a track to a $15 minimum wage" - note that means they are not currently making the $15/hr people were demanding 10 years ago!) and the problem is simply the expanded unemployment benefits.
I guess he doesn't do economics, because if your wages can't compete with "wow I can just barely make rent" then I guess you could... raise... wages.
Anyway still waiting for daily interviews with restaurants workers to explain "the job sucks, the customers suck, the wages suck and a bunch of my coworkers got sick or died."
Last time I got takeout I handed a tip to the highschooler working the window. I had already paid and he was confused. "What's this for?" If this kid is getting so little in tips that he doesn't understand the process of tipping I'm giving side eye to every other customer approaching that restaurant! What the hell??
I hope this movement continues and grows. Power to the people!
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:32 AM on May 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
Just about every walmart in the country is hiring, and they now apparently have a minimum wage of $11. Which I understand is a pretty signifciant jump from pre-pandemic times, where it was more like $9.50. Having worked in both grocery stores and (very, very briefly) food service, I'd take the former at equal wages, probably even a dollar or two less.
How much have wages at McDonald's and the like risen in the last two years? Not nearly as much, it seems, they've chosen to allow franchisees to keep wages as low as they want, while increasing wages at the roughly 5% of stores that are company-owned.
It seems like a lot of places predicated their business model on really, really cheap labor, and they're going to suffer now that prevailing wages are (slightly) increasing.
Or, maybe this whole story is just bullshit, and restaurants are just having trouble hiring because they are the best-performing sector in the job-market, they *have* hired lots of people, and they're just running out of potential employees at current wage-levels.
posted by skewed at 8:33 AM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
How much have wages at McDonald's and the like risen in the last two years? Not nearly as much, it seems, they've chosen to allow franchisees to keep wages as low as they want, while increasing wages at the roughly 5% of stores that are company-owned.
It seems like a lot of places predicated their business model on really, really cheap labor, and they're going to suffer now that prevailing wages are (slightly) increasing.
Or, maybe this whole story is just bullshit, and restaurants are just having trouble hiring because they are the best-performing sector in the job-market, they *have* hired lots of people, and they're just running out of potential employees at current wage-levels.
posted by skewed at 8:33 AM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
But this can't be, businesses have been telling us for years that these employees are "low-skill" drones who don't deserve anything more than the barest compensation for their easily-replaceable "work". Surely all these business owners can snap their fingers and find new worthless cogs in a heartbeat, right?
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:33 AM on May 17, 2021 [79 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:33 AM on May 17, 2021 [79 favorites]
This really highlights the fallacy of the claim that capitalism in North America is an efficient free market. The owners would rather see the business shuttered than pay a living wage.
I've worked about a half dozen or so of these jobs and my consistent experience was that you and your coworkers were treated as disposable and unskilled when a) the business needs you to function and b) you were expected to start on the first day with a skillset that was useful to the employer.
posted by LegallyBread at 8:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [47 favorites]
I've worked about a half dozen or so of these jobs and my consistent experience was that you and your coworkers were treated as disposable and unskilled when a) the business needs you to function and b) you were expected to start on the first day with a skillset that was useful to the employer.
posted by LegallyBread at 8:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [47 favorites]
I love to see this!
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:40 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:40 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
I have an unreasonable suspicion that the signs reading "no one wants to work anymore", etc., are the owners trying to paint the working class as lazy so they can extract more concessions from the state. As in: I don't think a thousand fast-food franchisees are getting together in a dark room but that they're intrinsically greedy and wholly incapable of realizing they missed some words on their sign:
"Please be patient with the staff that did show up. No one wants to work anymore at the terrible wages we're offering"
Reminds me of James Dyson complaining that he couldn't find any engineers in the UK [at the shitty wages he was willing to pay]. It's never that they're offering the wrong job; it's always that the plebes want the wrong things.
posted by introp at 8:42 AM on May 17, 2021 [62 favorites]
"Please be patient with the staff that did show up. No one wants to work anymore at the terrible wages we're offering"
Reminds me of James Dyson complaining that he couldn't find any engineers in the UK [at the shitty wages he was willing to pay]. It's never that they're offering the wrong job; it's always that the plebes want the wrong things.
posted by introp at 8:42 AM on May 17, 2021 [62 favorites]
There's a good meme going on Facebook where someone has crossed out "anymore" in "nobody wants to work anymore" and replaced it with "full time for wages that leave you homeless and hungry".
posted by jacquilynne at 8:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [43 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 8:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [43 favorites]
I love the signs which say "no one wants to work anymore". My dude, no one has ever wanted to work at your lousy job. It's work. No one wants to work. Work is bad!
posted by qntm at 8:48 AM on May 17, 2021 [60 favorites]
posted by qntm at 8:48 AM on May 17, 2021 [60 favorites]
Couldn't have happened to a nicer industry. Let me find the world's tiniest violin.
I would like to believe that this will finally strike some kind of permanent blow against the US's absolutely obscene tipping culture, but I'm probably being too optimistic. I hope that at the very least these wage increases will stick.
posted by confluency at 8:51 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
I would like to believe that this will finally strike some kind of permanent blow against the US's absolutely obscene tipping culture, but I'm probably being too optimistic. I hope that at the very least these wage increases will stick.
posted by confluency at 8:51 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
they're oddly unwilling to drag themselves out of bed at 5am for the breakfast rush.
I would kind of love to see a senior brand manager from the Waffle House corporation shoveling hash browns at 2am.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:52 AM on May 17, 2021 [32 favorites]
I would kind of love to see a senior brand manager from the Waffle House corporation shoveling hash browns at 2am.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:52 AM on May 17, 2021 [32 favorites]
There's apparently a Burger King franchise in Ohio somewhere that had the idea to try to cope by encouraging parents to let their 14- and 15-year-olds apply for jobs there. But they are getting roasted online as well ("So instead of paying people a living wage, you're going to go the child labor route?").
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:57 AM on May 17, 2021 [61 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:57 AM on May 17, 2021 [61 favorites]
Fetch the fainting couch! Free market capitalists are swooning at the idea that free market principles apply to labor as well!
posted by adept256 at 8:57 AM on May 17, 2021 [61 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 8:57 AM on May 17, 2021 [61 favorites]
Clearly, the solution is to force anyone making more than 50k at a company to do a full week of the real working conditions of the lowest paid employees.
posted by Jacen at 8:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 8:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [10 favorites]
As somebody said on Twitter, “nobody wants to work” is the business equivalent of “nobody wants to date a nice guy".
posted by acb at 8:59 AM on May 17, 2021 [184 favorites]
posted by acb at 8:59 AM on May 17, 2021 [184 favorites]
This really highlights the fallacy of the claim that capitalism in North America is an efficient free market. The owners would rather see the business shuttered than pay a living wage.
TL;DR: It's complicated and there's no way to know what's happening in any particular instance.
I think most owners are trying to maximize their profits. Shuttering the store tends to decrease profits.
A useful (but incomplete) economic fact is that owners hire people when it increases their profits. No McDonald's owner would hire a cashier at $200 an hour because the increase in sales from having another cashier would not cover the $200/hour salary; that hire would reduce profits.
I'm sure at least some owners are closing because raising wages would in fact result in losses.
But: Not to shock you, but not every owner or manager is a perfectly rational economic actor. There might be a transition as they get used to paying higher wages and accepting lower profits.
Or maybe it's a strategy: It's really hard to cut wages, so if they raised them now, they'd be stuck with permanently higher wage and permanently lower profits. They might be losing money now by not raising wages, but they think they'll eventually be able to hire without raises, which would increase profits in the long term.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:01 AM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
TL;DR: It's complicated and there's no way to know what's happening in any particular instance.
I think most owners are trying to maximize their profits. Shuttering the store tends to decrease profits.
A useful (but incomplete) economic fact is that owners hire people when it increases their profits. No McDonald's owner would hire a cashier at $200 an hour because the increase in sales from having another cashier would not cover the $200/hour salary; that hire would reduce profits.
I'm sure at least some owners are closing because raising wages would in fact result in losses.
But: Not to shock you, but not every owner or manager is a perfectly rational economic actor. There might be a transition as they get used to paying higher wages and accepting lower profits.
Or maybe it's a strategy: It's really hard to cut wages, so if they raised them now, they'd be stuck with permanently higher wage and permanently lower profits. They might be losing money now by not raising wages, but they think they'll eventually be able to hire without raises, which would increase profits in the long term.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:01 AM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
Clearly, the solution is to force anyone making more than 50k at a company to do a full week DECADE of the real working conditions of the lowest paid employees.
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:03 AM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by JohnFromGR at 9:03 AM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
Last time I got takeout I handed a tip to the highschooler working the window. I had already paid and he was confused. "What's this for?" If this kid is getting so little in tips that he doesn't understand the process of tipping I'm giving side eye to every other customer approaching that restaurant! What the hell??
I haven’t encountered a fast food place where employees could accept tips without being fired. They’re constantly being watched to make sure they don’t take any cash so he may have been confused and uncomfortable because it could look suspicious if he was handling cash for any reason other than a transaction.
Customers should be able to tip, of course, but some business owners take it upon themselves to make service jobs as awful as possible.
posted by corey flood at 9:06 AM on May 17, 2021 [38 favorites]
I haven’t encountered a fast food place where employees could accept tips without being fired. They’re constantly being watched to make sure they don’t take any cash so he may have been confused and uncomfortable because it could look suspicious if he was handling cash for any reason other than a transaction.
Customers should be able to tip, of course, but some business owners take it upon themselves to make service jobs as awful as possible.
posted by corey flood at 9:06 AM on May 17, 2021 [38 favorites]
I'm sure at least some owners are closing because raising wages would in fact result in losses.
Then these are not viable businesses. A business that can only function by paying people poverty wages has failed. My profits could be so much higher at my store if I could literally chain people to the register and throw them dog food bowls full of oatmeal 3x a day, but I can't and I shouldn't.
Blaming a nonviable business on employees who are unwilling to take a loss by working there is crap.
(Not taking a shot at you, by the way, just this attitude that businesses can't be successful if they pay people real money. They're not a successful business in that case and economics dictate that they should go under).
posted by mikesch at 9:07 AM on May 17, 2021 [133 favorites]
Then these are not viable businesses. A business that can only function by paying people poverty wages has failed. My profits could be so much higher at my store if I could literally chain people to the register and throw them dog food bowls full of oatmeal 3x a day, but I can't and I shouldn't.
Blaming a nonviable business on employees who are unwilling to take a loss by working there is crap.
(Not taking a shot at you, by the way, just this attitude that businesses can't be successful if they pay people real money. They're not a successful business in that case and economics dictate that they should go under).
posted by mikesch at 9:07 AM on May 17, 2021 [133 favorites]
This seems more like a case of “A reporter saw some tweets with some photos” rather than actual evidence of a mass movement. Happy to be wrong, though.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:07 AM on May 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:07 AM on May 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
Isn't tipping in America only practiced in the sorts of jobs where the wage is well below minimum wage, and the employment is implicitly a licence to hustle for tips?
posted by acb at 9:08 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 9:08 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
If i saw a sign that simply said " no one wants to work" I'd turn right around and never eat/shop there again. I'd for sure infer that that place is a shitty workplace.
I've got mixed feelings about the restaurant industry these days. I moved from a place (western washington) with lots of good restaurants competing for diners' dollars, that also moved toward a living wage for staff, to a place (eastern washington) with neither of those things. I'd say that before covid about 1 in 5 of my meals out was satisfactory. Prices were seattle prices, but the food was mediocre at best. Service was spotty but I overtip regardless. I've been reluctant to support any but the good places during the lockdown, not the least because there was real resistance to the lockdowns here, and it was obvious the workers were not being valued.
It's going to be interesting seeing if this really becomes a labor movement (I hope so), and what that will mean in the coming years.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [19 favorites]
I've got mixed feelings about the restaurant industry these days. I moved from a place (western washington) with lots of good restaurants competing for diners' dollars, that also moved toward a living wage for staff, to a place (eastern washington) with neither of those things. I'd say that before covid about 1 in 5 of my meals out was satisfactory. Prices were seattle prices, but the food was mediocre at best. Service was spotty but I overtip regardless. I've been reluctant to support any but the good places during the lockdown, not the least because there was real resistance to the lockdowns here, and it was obvious the workers were not being valued.
It's going to be interesting seeing if this really becomes a labor movement (I hope so), and what that will mean in the coming years.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [19 favorites]
> Clearly, the solution is to force anyone making more than 50k at a company to do a full week of the real working conditions of the lowest paid employees.
This sort of dynamic reminds me of public transit; the vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the politicians at every level of government (in Canada, at least) never use it, but if they were forced to take it to get to work for a year I have a feeling funding for halfway decent service might be easier to procure.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [30 favorites]
This sort of dynamic reminds me of public transit; the vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the politicians at every level of government (in Canada, at least) never use it, but if they were forced to take it to get to work for a year I have a feeling funding for halfway decent service might be easier to procure.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [30 favorites]
Isn't tipping in America only practiced in the sorts of jobs where the wage is well below minimum wage, and the employment is implicitly a licence to hustle for tips?
Yes, but all the same, at major fast-food chains like McDonald's and Taco-Bell and Burger King, they don't let the employees accept tips. I did a stint at the local McDonald's when I was 16 and had to politely tell a very nice couple this when they tried to tip me once.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yes, but all the same, at major fast-food chains like McDonald's and Taco-Bell and Burger King, they don't let the employees accept tips. I did a stint at the local McDonald's when I was 16 and had to politely tell a very nice couple this when they tried to tip me once.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
First you kill lots of line cooks and then you wonder why there aren't as many willing to work for you for low pay?
posted by Garm at 9:16 AM on May 17, 2021 [41 favorites]
posted by Garm at 9:16 AM on May 17, 2021 [41 favorites]
This really highlights the fallacy of the claim that capitalism in North America is an efficient free market.
FWIW, the most rabid stalwarts of american capitalism will loudly inform you that america does not have anything close to a free market. There are still all those oppressive labor laws, safety and health regulations, etc. they are forced to capitulate to.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:17 AM on May 17, 2021 [26 favorites]
FWIW, the most rabid stalwarts of american capitalism will loudly inform you that america does not have anything close to a free market. There are still all those oppressive labor laws, safety and health regulations, etc. they are forced to capitulate to.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:17 AM on May 17, 2021 [26 favorites]
Isn't tipping in America only practiced in the sorts of jobs where the wage is well below minimum wage, and the employment is implicitly a licence to hustle for tips?
Kind of backwards. Tipped minimum wages came about because employees were already getting tips and employers saw an opportunity to screw them over. A lot of states don't have tipped minimum wages so servers will make the tips on top of whatever the minimum wage is.
The fun part about America is that you never really know when to tip and you feel like a complete fool for not tipping someone that you're sort of supposed to. And then it makes it awkward when, say, you're on a business trip that the employer is paying for and there's no way to tip the housekeeping staff on your company card and you kind of have to use cash, but then it's cash out of your pocket and good luck getting reimbursed for that so you either spend money out of your own pocket tipping housekeeping staff on a business trip or you are a terrible person and you don't tip them at all.
Tip jars are more common at non franchise fast food places, but occasionally you'll see them, either officially or in the off hours when management isn't there. It's become even more difficult since COVID made the economy mostly cashless and some places don't let you specify a tip when paying with a credit card. I've been riding the same $300 in cash since the beginning of the pandemic and if I'm a regular somewhere like my favorite donut shop I'll just stuff a $20 in the tip jar every couple of week since I don't break them anywhere else.
All of this is a long way of saying that tipping culture is exhausting and it'd be great if we could just charge what things cost and pay people a living wage to provide services.
posted by mikesch at 9:17 AM on May 17, 2021 [50 favorites]
Kind of backwards. Tipped minimum wages came about because employees were already getting tips and employers saw an opportunity to screw them over. A lot of states don't have tipped minimum wages so servers will make the tips on top of whatever the minimum wage is.
The fun part about America is that you never really know when to tip and you feel like a complete fool for not tipping someone that you're sort of supposed to. And then it makes it awkward when, say, you're on a business trip that the employer is paying for and there's no way to tip the housekeeping staff on your company card and you kind of have to use cash, but then it's cash out of your pocket and good luck getting reimbursed for that so you either spend money out of your own pocket tipping housekeeping staff on a business trip or you are a terrible person and you don't tip them at all.
Tip jars are more common at non franchise fast food places, but occasionally you'll see them, either officially or in the off hours when management isn't there. It's become even more difficult since COVID made the economy mostly cashless and some places don't let you specify a tip when paying with a credit card. I've been riding the same $300 in cash since the beginning of the pandemic and if I'm a regular somewhere like my favorite donut shop I'll just stuff a $20 in the tip jar every couple of week since I don't break them anywhere else.
All of this is a long way of saying that tipping culture is exhausting and it'd be great if we could just charge what things cost and pay people a living wage to provide services.
posted by mikesch at 9:17 AM on May 17, 2021 [50 favorites]
A local pizza chain here in town -- one of my favorites -- just pulled this with one of their locations; while I like their pizza (which I can continue to get from their other two locations, one of which they opened in the past two years and I'm sure has no influence on this new decision), explaining the closure with "we couldn't find good staff" kinda leaves a bad taste for me. When the facebook post announcing the closure had a smattering of "no surprise, those people were horrible to work for" comments, that explains more.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:18 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:18 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
I haven’t encountered a fast food place where employees could accept tips without being fired.
That's a good point. Just to clarify, in this case it is a standard sit-down restaurant that also has a window for takeout. Not a chain, and IMO one of the most responsible local restaurants as far as pandemic precautions/responses went.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:19 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
That's a good point. Just to clarify, in this case it is a standard sit-down restaurant that also has a window for takeout. Not a chain, and IMO one of the most responsible local restaurants as far as pandemic precautions/responses went.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:19 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Good. Now if we can also get people, including those who identify as center-left and left of that, to stop disparaging these jobs by making the gross "Do you want fries with that?" joke, that will also help.
posted by holborne at 9:19 AM on May 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by holborne at 9:19 AM on May 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
After watching the meltdown in my local pizza place on Friday night, I think we're headed for this perfect storm of people starting to come back out to eat in person while the online ordering systems still overload the kitchen, and everybody is woefully understaffed.
The Potbelly down the street isn't even open until 2:00 pm on weekdays now. I'm pretty sure they had a crew rebellion recently. Their bread and butter (excuse the pun) was the lunch rush so I have no idea how they're staying open.
And just a reminder that the McD $15 increase is only for company-owned stores (5% of US stores). The franchised employees in various cities are still planning to strike on Wednesday.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
The Potbelly down the street isn't even open until 2:00 pm on weekdays now. I'm pretty sure they had a crew rebellion recently. Their bread and butter (excuse the pun) was the lunch rush so I have no idea how they're staying open.
And just a reminder that the McD $15 increase is only for company-owned stores (5% of US stores). The franchised employees in various cities are still planning to strike on Wednesday.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
This seems more like a case of “A reporter saw some tweets with some photos” rather than actual evidence of a mass movement. Happy to be wrong, though.
Yeah I was hoping to see some greater evidence to go with the twitter photos I have mainly seen already. it would be great if this managed to grow and become a phenomenon. Or that it already is and the data isn't in.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah I was hoping to see some greater evidence to go with the twitter photos I have mainly seen already. it would be great if this managed to grow and become a phenomenon. Or that it already is and the data isn't in.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I remember when this happened at a coffee shop in my old neighborhood over a decade ago. If you RTA even the labor organizers were shocked. I bet they're less shocked now.
posted by Ampersand692 at 9:26 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Ampersand692 at 9:26 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Isn’t tipping in America only practiced in the sorts of jobs where the wage is well below minimum wage, and the employment is implicitly a licence to hustle for tips?
Yes, but all the same, at major fast-food chains like McDonald's and Taco-Bell and Burger King, they don't let the employees accept tips. I did a stint at the local McDonald's when I was 16 and had to politely tell a very nice couple this when they tried to tip me once.
I (sort of) disagree! I’m not an expert beyond living here but... while there is an official class of job that is paid less than minimum wage on the assumption that you will be tipped, but when you go into an establishment you generally have no idea if that’s the case. (There’s no big sign that says “these are tipped jobs”.) Credit card receipts often print with a line for adding a tip / gratuity seemingly regardless of an establishment’s practices. Coffee shops, etc. often have tip jars that I’ll drop a buck or two into, but I wouldn’t expect those jobs to pay less than minimum wage. (Happy to be told otherwise, but that’s my assumption.)
Relatedly, as a customer you have no idea if the tips will be pooled and then split or kept per employee. Employees might be getting incentivized to hustle harder by being let keep their own tips, or they might be incentivized to hustle the same amount as everyone else because their tips are pooled. You just don't know.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:27 AM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yes, but all the same, at major fast-food chains like McDonald's and Taco-Bell and Burger King, they don't let the employees accept tips. I did a stint at the local McDonald's when I was 16 and had to politely tell a very nice couple this when they tried to tip me once.
I (sort of) disagree! I’m not an expert beyond living here but... while there is an official class of job that is paid less than minimum wage on the assumption that you will be tipped, but when you go into an establishment you generally have no idea if that’s the case. (There’s no big sign that says “these are tipped jobs”.) Credit card receipts often print with a line for adding a tip / gratuity seemingly regardless of an establishment’s practices. Coffee shops, etc. often have tip jars that I’ll drop a buck or two into, but I wouldn’t expect those jobs to pay less than minimum wage. (Happy to be told otherwise, but that’s my assumption.)
Relatedly, as a customer you have no idea if the tips will be pooled and then split or kept per employee. Employees might be getting incentivized to hustle harder by being let keep their own tips, or they might be incentivized to hustle the same amount as everyone else because their tips are pooled. You just don't know.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:27 AM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Minimum Wage: Possible to Live on in 2021?
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:31 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:31 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
There's a regional chain of juice/smoothy shacks where all the employees (non-union, this being Texas) are striking. One of their demands is $15/hour base pay, but another is air conditioning (again, this being Texas).
The cheapest thing on the menu is watermelon juice for $3. I don't know what their margins are like, but there's a competing chain that offers similar products at similar prices (within 50¢) where the employees have full healthcare.
posted by adamrice at 9:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [61 favorites]
The cheapest thing on the menu is watermelon juice for $3. I don't know what their margins are like, but there's a competing chain that offers similar products at similar prices (within 50¢) where the employees have full healthcare.
posted by adamrice at 9:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [61 favorites]
The double whammy is that Restaurant sales are down from the slammed early to mid pandemic levels. Down because of the transition. This can vary from place to place. Everybody is hiring, mostly for the same part time job, get back to no OT. Plus, those signs put others workers on notice that they can and will be replaced. I've seen fights, no tipping Bru ha-has. Open vaping and drinking, not moralistic here but fuck, after this last 13 months who would want to work for the same conditions and same pay...very few.
posted by clavdivs at 9:37 AM on May 17, 2021
posted by clavdivs at 9:37 AM on May 17, 2021
"So instead of paying people a living wage, you're going to go the child labor route?"
This is one of the ways they originally got around having to pay a living wage. Then, as the NYT reported in 2013, the demographics shifted:
The classic image of the high-school student flipping Big Macs after class is sorely out of date. Because of lingering unemployment and a relative abundance of fast-food jobs, older workers are increasingly entering the industry. These days, according to the National Employment Law Project, the average age of fast-food workers is 29. Forty percent are 25 or older; 31 percent have at least attempted college; more than 26 percent are parents raising children. Union organizers say that one-third to one-half of them have more than one job — like Mr. Shoy, who is 58 and supports a wife and children.
Based on personal observation, the trend they were reporting then is now the broad-based norm.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:39 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
This is one of the ways they originally got around having to pay a living wage. Then, as the NYT reported in 2013, the demographics shifted:
The classic image of the high-school student flipping Big Macs after class is sorely out of date. Because of lingering unemployment and a relative abundance of fast-food jobs, older workers are increasingly entering the industry. These days, according to the National Employment Law Project, the average age of fast-food workers is 29. Forty percent are 25 or older; 31 percent have at least attempted college; more than 26 percent are parents raising children. Union organizers say that one-third to one-half of them have more than one job — like Mr. Shoy, who is 58 and supports a wife and children.
Based on personal observation, the trend they were reporting then is now the broad-based norm.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:39 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
Like Galloway says, it's rugged individualism (*I* built the Grub Shack! Me and baby Jesus!) on the way up and socialism (representatives I pay for must pass laws forcing the labor pool to work in dangerous conditions for low pay!) on the way down.
posted by lon_star at 9:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by lon_star at 9:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm sure at least some owners are closing because raising wages would in fact result in losses.
Those owners should be at the forefront of campaigning for a rise in the minimum wage. If everyone has to pay it, everyone has to raise their prices to pay it, everyone's on equal footing. It's the piecemeal raising of wages that gets businesses into trouble because they can't keep their prices as low as the next guy's and as long as he can keep enough staff to stay open, he'll always undercut them. If he has to pay livable wages, then they can, too, and still compete.
This sort of dynamic reminds me of public transit; the vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the politicians at every level of government (in Canada, at least) never use it, but if they were forced to take it to get to work for a year I have a feeling funding for halfway decent service might be easier to procure.
In Ottawa, there's a group that challenges our city councilors to take public transit for a week once a year and the reports are always full of "well, I tried, but I couldn't do it on this day because I had a meeting and I couldn't do it on that day because I needed to take my kid to the doctor" and I always read them and think "yeah, and how do you think the poorer residents of Ottawa get their kids to the doctor, exactly?"
posted by jacquilynne at 9:44 AM on May 17, 2021 [93 favorites]
Those owners should be at the forefront of campaigning for a rise in the minimum wage. If everyone has to pay it, everyone has to raise their prices to pay it, everyone's on equal footing. It's the piecemeal raising of wages that gets businesses into trouble because they can't keep their prices as low as the next guy's and as long as he can keep enough staff to stay open, he'll always undercut them. If he has to pay livable wages, then they can, too, and still compete.
This sort of dynamic reminds me of public transit; the vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the politicians at every level of government (in Canada, at least) never use it, but if they were forced to take it to get to work for a year I have a feeling funding for halfway decent service might be easier to procure.
In Ottawa, there's a group that challenges our city councilors to take public transit for a week once a year and the reports are always full of "well, I tried, but I couldn't do it on this day because I had a meeting and I couldn't do it on that day because I needed to take my kid to the doctor" and I always read them and think "yeah, and how do you think the poorer residents of Ottawa get their kids to the doctor, exactly?"
posted by jacquilynne at 9:44 AM on May 17, 2021 [93 favorites]
Wages are a real issue with agricultural and field workers too. My BIL simply can't hire anyone for less than about $17/hr USD and can't keep them unless that goes up to $25/hr USD after a few months. That's for semi-skilled labour driving farm equipment, mostly. His best people get north of $30/hr USD (and lots of hours). Those are the ones that show up regularly for a year or more and can be trusted to do a day's work without a lot of supervision or breaking something.
posted by bonehead at 9:46 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 9:46 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
As somebody said on Twitter, “nobody wants to work” is the business equivalent of “nobody wants to date a nice guy".
Someone in my friends list reposted a business's Facebook post advertising that they were hiring... with a photo of one of these "none wants to work" signs as the post image. The text was like your normal help wanted Facebook post, but with this wildly inappropriate image attached. Definitely reminded me of the hetero, cis dudes who will tell a woman they're interested in that she's not like other women(*).
(* Thought more often phrased as not like other girls, perhaps.)
posted by eviemath at 9:47 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Someone in my friends list reposted a business's Facebook post advertising that they were hiring... with a photo of one of these "none wants to work" signs as the post image. The text was like your normal help wanted Facebook post, but with this wildly inappropriate image attached. Definitely reminded me of the hetero, cis dudes who will tell a woman they're interested in that she's not like other women(*).
(* Thought more often phrased as not like other girls, perhaps.)
posted by eviemath at 9:47 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I know someone working retail who should be benefiting from increases in the minimum wage, except that the gradual increase that was part of the compromise to get the increase passed is actually shallower than the yearly merit-based increases she was getting, and now the retailer is saying those increases are suspended because everyone's already getting a pay raise care of the state, and it's actually a net loss compared to the trajectory of her salary prior to the minimum wage increase.
This should be a lesson for legislators: Go big and to hell with any business owner who complains.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:55 AM on May 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
This should be a lesson for legislators: Go big and to hell with any business owner who complains.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:55 AM on May 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
His best people get north of $30/hr USD (and lots of hours). Those are the ones that show up regularly for a year or more and can be trusted to do a day's work without a lot of supervision or breaking something.
That gets at how I see the trend. Individual contributors, to use the parlance, increasingly want to manage themselves. It makes sense to spend the money that would've been spent on a low level supervisor paying more to employees who don't need a supervisor. The restaurant industry is having a harder time with that transition than other fields, especially because they instantly run into competition from highly automated fast food/fast casual carryout if they change prices significantly.
My guess is that one-dining-room-per-restaurant will be much less common as a result of this.
posted by michaelh at 9:59 AM on May 17, 2021
That gets at how I see the trend. Individual contributors, to use the parlance, increasingly want to manage themselves. It makes sense to spend the money that would've been spent on a low level supervisor paying more to employees who don't need a supervisor. The restaurant industry is having a harder time with that transition than other fields, especially because they instantly run into competition from highly automated fast food/fast casual carryout if they change prices significantly.
My guess is that one-dining-room-per-restaurant will be much less common as a result of this.
posted by michaelh at 9:59 AM on May 17, 2021
> I think we're headed for this perfect storm of people starting to come back out to eat in person while the online ordering systems still overload the kitchen, and everybody is woefully understaffed.
Oh geez, I hadn’t even considered this aspect of the situation. I’d love to get back to eating and drinking at my favourite establishments too, but so I’m sure are millions of people who haven’t had a chance to order service workers around like a butler in person for well over a year now and are really itching for that fix.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:02 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Oh geez, I hadn’t even considered this aspect of the situation. I’d love to get back to eating and drinking at my favourite establishments too, but so I’m sure are millions of people who haven’t had a chance to order service workers around like a butler in person for well over a year now and are really itching for that fix.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:02 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm sure we've all heard this batshit idea that boosted unemployment payments are keeping people at home. It's the old 'poor people are lazy' trope and fuck off with that. But let's entertain this notion, maybe there's an oblique approach to raising the minimum wage by giving people 7$ an hour to stay in bed and making employers compete with that.
posted by adept256 at 10:11 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 10:11 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
I assumed bartenders made good money just getting so many tips. I guess working not super busy bars or shifts makes it a real feast or famine enterprise?
I did a very large personal project at a huge retail nonprofit to convince the CEO/CFO/COO to raise the minimum wage for our retail workers from like $9 to $12 then $15 over years. I had so much research, case studies, interviews w/ two successful local business owners who had multiple locations and had raised wages to great success. One was a fast food place (local, many locations though) and they'd instantly bumped wages $1 when IN&OUT came and was $0.50 higher than they were.
The simple fact was that my nonprofit saw 300% turnover or more in a year because if a person could make a quarter more anywhere, they would do so. Training was so expensive! Lost productivity was so expensive! Low morale was expensive! But these were hidden costs and wages were right there in red ink.
I failed, it is one of my great shames and I think about it all the time. This was 2015/2016. I wonder what their base wages are now, I bet they're a lot closer to $12 or more than they were before.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:18 AM on May 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
I did a very large personal project at a huge retail nonprofit to convince the CEO/CFO/COO to raise the minimum wage for our retail workers from like $9 to $12 then $15 over years. I had so much research, case studies, interviews w/ two successful local business owners who had multiple locations and had raised wages to great success. One was a fast food place (local, many locations though) and they'd instantly bumped wages $1 when IN&OUT came and was $0.50 higher than they were.
The simple fact was that my nonprofit saw 300% turnover or more in a year because if a person could make a quarter more anywhere, they would do so. Training was so expensive! Lost productivity was so expensive! Low morale was expensive! But these were hidden costs and wages were right there in red ink.
I failed, it is one of my great shames and I think about it all the time. This was 2015/2016. I wonder what their base wages are now, I bet they're a lot closer to $12 or more than they were before.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:18 AM on May 17, 2021 [22 favorites]
rent appears once in this discussion thus far.
the problem isn't low wages, it's higher rents, and raising wages isn't going to lower the higher rents.
Ask me how I know!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
the problem isn't low wages, it's higher rents, and raising wages isn't going to lower the higher rents.
Ask me how I know!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:23 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
Those owners should be at the forefront of campaigning for a rise in the minimum wage. If everyone has to pay it, everyone has to raise their prices to pay it, everyone's on equal footing.
The simple model is that if everyone increases wages a lot you drive some number of restaurants out of business, because people won't want pay the higher food prices. It's unlikely it's in the interest of most restaurant owners to advocate for this.
It's fine to say, well, then there shouldn't be that many restaurants; if people want to eat out or hang around a bar while they drink they should pay more and do it less often, rather than be party to a system that exploits workers.
But it's not a free lunch. So to speak.
I'm sure we've all heard this batshit idea that boosted unemployment payments are keeping people at home. It's the old 'poor people are lazy' trope and fuck off with that.
Huh? I thought it was a given that the ability not to work gave you more options to be picky about your job. If you took that away people might indeed have to go back. It's one point about UBI: give workers more bargaining power so choosing not to work (at a crappy job for crappy wages) is an option.
posted by mark k at 10:25 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
The simple model is that if everyone increases wages a lot you drive some number of restaurants out of business, because people won't want pay the higher food prices. It's unlikely it's in the interest of most restaurant owners to advocate for this.
It's fine to say, well, then there shouldn't be that many restaurants; if people want to eat out or hang around a bar while they drink they should pay more and do it less often, rather than be party to a system that exploits workers.
But it's not a free lunch. So to speak.
I'm sure we've all heard this batshit idea that boosted unemployment payments are keeping people at home. It's the old 'poor people are lazy' trope and fuck off with that.
Huh? I thought it was a given that the ability not to work gave you more options to be picky about your job. If you took that away people might indeed have to go back. It's one point about UBI: give workers more bargaining power so choosing not to work (at a crappy job for crappy wages) is an option.
posted by mark k at 10:25 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
But: Not to shock you, but not every owner or manager is a perfectly rational economic actor.
Find me one who is.
posted by Gadarene at 10:28 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Find me one who is.
posted by Gadarene at 10:28 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Don't forget! Restaurants are also a big industry for exploiting undocumented workers so the absolute naked build-the-wall shitfest of the past 5 years is reaping its shit harvest now. I guess no one wants those jobs immigrants keep "stealing".
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:29 AM on May 17, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:29 AM on May 17, 2021 [18 favorites]
Heck, Johnfrom, I need my shitty job to live and I wouldn't even wish a decade of it on almost anyone in management. But I'm a nice person I guess.
Yeah, I would happily take money to stay at home with my girlfriend. Wouldn't even take that much.
posted by Jacen at 10:32 AM on May 17, 2021
Yeah, I would happily take money to stay at home with my girlfriend. Wouldn't even take that much.
posted by Jacen at 10:32 AM on May 17, 2021
the online ordering systems still overload the kitchen
Oh my of course not-goodness, do the online systems not gate for restaurant capacity?
posted by clew at 10:33 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh my of course not-goodness, do the online systems not gate for restaurant capacity?
posted by clew at 10:33 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I know an appropriate song for this thread.
David Rovics: Minimum Wage Strike.
posted by Paul Slade at 10:34 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
David Rovics: Minimum Wage Strike.
posted by Paul Slade at 10:34 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
skewed: "Just about every walmart in the country is hiring, and they now apparently have a minimum wage of $11. "
Walmart CEO made $26 million last year. Wonder how much they could raise the minimum wage at their stores if he was willing to accept less? If the rest of the board of directors was willing to make less?
He could personally give $10 to every single one of the 2.3 million Walmart employees worldwide and he'd STILL pull down $3 million. Does anyone truly need that much money?
CEO salaries are stupidly, criminally inflated. Shareholder profits are not more important than the people who are exploited to make that profit possible.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
Walmart CEO made $26 million last year. Wonder how much they could raise the minimum wage at their stores if he was willing to accept less? If the rest of the board of directors was willing to make less?
He could personally give $10 to every single one of the 2.3 million Walmart employees worldwide and he'd STILL pull down $3 million. Does anyone truly need that much money?
CEO salaries are stupidly, criminally inflated. Shareholder profits are not more important than the people who are exploited to make that profit possible.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [28 favorites]
As somebody said on Twitter, “nobody wants to work” is the business equivalent of “nobody wants to date a nice guy".
I propose that we call whining about employees wanting more money "wage-zoning."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:38 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
I propose that we call whining about employees wanting more money "wage-zoning."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:38 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
Those owners should be at the forefront of campaigning for a rise in the minimum wage. If everyone has to pay it, everyone has to raise their prices to pay it, everyone's on equal footing.
The simple model is that if everyone increases wages a lot you drive some number of restaurants out of business, because people won't want pay the higher food prices. It's unlikely it's in the interest of most restaurant owners to advocate for this.
Both of you are right. It depends on what the underlying consumer demand is.
In some cases, consumers are willing to pay a lot more, but will shop for the best value. Salt costs me about 50 cents. If one store increased the price to $5, I'd buy it for 50 cents at another store. If all stores raised the price to $5, I'd pay $5.
In other cases, people would stop buying the product. I can get a takeout dinner for $12 or make it myself for $4. If the takeout price increased to $15, I'd cook for myself more. If takeout prices rose to $25, I'd never get takeout.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:40 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
The simple model is that if everyone increases wages a lot you drive some number of restaurants out of business, because people won't want pay the higher food prices. It's unlikely it's in the interest of most restaurant owners to advocate for this.
Both of you are right. It depends on what the underlying consumer demand is.
In some cases, consumers are willing to pay a lot more, but will shop for the best value. Salt costs me about 50 cents. If one store increased the price to $5, I'd buy it for 50 cents at another store. If all stores raised the price to $5, I'd pay $5.
In other cases, people would stop buying the product. I can get a takeout dinner for $12 or make it myself for $4. If the takeout price increased to $15, I'd cook for myself more. If takeout prices rose to $25, I'd never get takeout.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:40 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
(For similar CEO math: Jeff Bezos could give every single human on the planet $20 and he'd STILL be worth $33 billion. How there are not CEO heads on pikes already is beyond me.)
posted by caution live frogs at 10:40 AM on May 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 10:40 AM on May 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
but so I’m sure are millions of people who haven’t had a chance to order service workers around like a butler in person for well over a year now and are really itching for that fix
Yeah I didn't even add the data point of this stupid CDC backtracking on mask rules, which now means the public is going to flood back into dining rooms and resume the confrontations with the overworked and underpaid staff.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:42 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
Yeah I didn't even add the data point of this stupid CDC backtracking on mask rules, which now means the public is going to flood back into dining rooms and resume the confrontations with the overworked and underpaid staff.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:42 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
“The Ghosts of the Rust Belt”—On the Media, 14 May 2021
The old US Steel building in Pittsburgh, PA is a black monolith, symbol and fortress of industrial power, soaring above the confluence of three mighty rivers. But its vista has changed. Gone is the golden, sulfurous haze. Gone are the belching smokestacks, blazing furnaces and slag-lined river valleys snaking along Appalachian foothills. The industry that sustained a region, girded the world’s infrastructure and underwrote a now-vanished way of life has long since crossed oceans. Steel City is now Healthcare City, representing almost 1 in 4 jobs in the region. Some 92,000 of them work for just one employer, the sprawling, omnivorous University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, whose logo now adorns the black-skyscraper sentinel of the Three Rivers.posted by ob1quixote at 10:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
But this is not just a case of a clean economy displacing a filthy one. To Gabriel Winant, author of The Next Shift: The Fall of Industry and the Rise of Health Care in Rust Belt America, the story of economic transformation in the Rust Belt is the story of disparity — of wealth, income and political power — that didn't vanish when the smokestacks came down.
In this special hour, Winant tells Bob the real story behind the economic transformation that took place in the rust belt, and what it tells us about our economy, and our future, more broadly.
https://twitter.com/lonewolftek/status/1394311171424018437
posted by scolbath at 10:53 AM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by scolbath at 10:53 AM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
How there are not CEO heads on pikes already is beyond me.
Because talk is, and has always been, cheap. Action has costs, and it's easier to not incur those costs while simultaneously trying to feel better about things by ranting online and getting some cheap beer at the local hypermart. Nobody wants to make the first move, because they value cheap beer and online rants more than being killed by private security in the hope of sparking a wider movement.
posted by aramaic at 10:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
Because talk is, and has always been, cheap. Action has costs, and it's easier to not incur those costs while simultaneously trying to feel better about things by ranting online and getting some cheap beer at the local hypermart. Nobody wants to make the first move, because they value cheap beer and online rants more than being killed by private security in the hope of sparking a wider movement.
posted by aramaic at 10:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
In other heartening news, agricultural workers in Washington will start receiving overtime pay.
The amount of complaining I see by farm owners, who have access to a visa program to import "guest" workers because not enough local workers want hard, dangerous, temporary jobs that don't pay very well, is disgusting. They're also still allowed to employ young teens with fewer worker protections than other industries, and some gripe about paying children minimum wage / overtime as well.
Yes, I understand that farm profit margins are generally low. The thing you should be lobbying for is not continuing to pay your workers as little as possible and giving them the worst housing possible.
posted by momus_window at 11:02 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
The amount of complaining I see by farm owners, who have access to a visa program to import "guest" workers because not enough local workers want hard, dangerous, temporary jobs that don't pay very well, is disgusting. They're also still allowed to employ young teens with fewer worker protections than other industries, and some gripe about paying children minimum wage / overtime as well.
Yes, I understand that farm profit margins are generally low. The thing you should be lobbying for is not continuing to pay your workers as little as possible and giving them the worst housing possible.
posted by momus_window at 11:02 AM on May 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
How there are not CEO heads on pikes already is beyond me.
The pike-industrial complex is also failing. They can't afford to hire anyone to manufacture, deploy and clean the pikes.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:02 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
The pike-industrial complex is also failing. They can't afford to hire anyone to manufacture, deploy and clean the pikes.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:02 AM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
His best people get north of $30/hr USD (and lots of hours). Those are the ones that show up regularly for a year or more and can be trusted to do a day's work without a lot of supervision or breaking something.
And they deserve it! Agricultural labour is both highly skilled and backbreakingly difficult. The skills aren't taught in educational institutions, but that doesn't make them any less difficult to learn than a lot of what I do, and I get paid $30/hour with full benefits - and coffee breaks, sitting down, I even have time to scroll metafilter.
If we paid agricultural workers by the difficulty of their work, we'd be paying them $100 an hour or more. Obviously, that would raise food prices -- but there is a reason that agricultural labour has always been done by the poorest who had no other options, or by the enslaved. It's really, really hard.
posted by jb at 11:07 AM on May 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
And they deserve it! Agricultural labour is both highly skilled and backbreakingly difficult. The skills aren't taught in educational institutions, but that doesn't make them any less difficult to learn than a lot of what I do, and I get paid $30/hour with full benefits - and coffee breaks, sitting down, I even have time to scroll metafilter.
If we paid agricultural workers by the difficulty of their work, we'd be paying them $100 an hour or more. Obviously, that would raise food prices -- but there is a reason that agricultural labour has always been done by the poorest who had no other options, or by the enslaved. It's really, really hard.
posted by jb at 11:07 AM on May 17, 2021 [27 favorites]
His best people get north of $30/hr USD (and lots of hours). Those are the ones that show up regularly for a year or more and can be trusted to do a day's work without a lot of supervision or breaking something.
Driving farm equipment is not semi-skilled labor, unless you mean like bobcats and pick up trucks. Driving a tractor or a combine is skilled labor, driving and maintaining a $300,000 machine, and when I did farm work (a long time ago, in the 1990s) they were almost always contractors making more than $30 a hour then. If they weren't a contractor, then the farm owner himself owned the combine and drove it himself, while day laborers and kids like me did the hand-to-ground stuff.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:24 AM on May 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
Driving farm equipment is not semi-skilled labor, unless you mean like bobcats and pick up trucks. Driving a tractor or a combine is skilled labor, driving and maintaining a $300,000 machine, and when I did farm work (a long time ago, in the 1990s) they were almost always contractors making more than $30 a hour then. If they weren't a contractor, then the farm owner himself owned the combine and drove it himself, while day laborers and kids like me did the hand-to-ground stuff.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:24 AM on May 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
Or, maybe this whole story is just bullshit, and restaurants are just having trouble hiring because they are the best-performing sector in the job-market, they *have* hired lots of people, and they're just running out of potential employees at current wage-levels.
This is 100% part of the propaganda campaign to justify ending enhanced unemployment benefits early. It's pretty obvious given how quickly the whole thing popped up shortly after a few states had made the decision and was suddenly plastering the news within a day or two, always with exactly the same talking points.
posted by wierdo at 11:31 AM on May 17, 2021 [20 favorites]
This is 100% part of the propaganda campaign to justify ending enhanced unemployment benefits early. It's pretty obvious given how quickly the whole thing popped up shortly after a few states had made the decision and was suddenly plastering the news within a day or two, always with exactly the same talking points.
posted by wierdo at 11:31 AM on May 17, 2021 [20 favorites]
Oh my of course not-goodness, do the online systems not gate for restaurant capacity?
As a software engineer I would they think they do, but from direct observation it seems like the kitchen staff is physically in the feedback loop and signal when to throttle orders or shut down ordering completely. It seems dangerously easy to miss a beat or forget to hit the kill button and suddenly your kitchen is 45 minutes behind.
On top of it, almost every place I've visited seems to be using between 3 and 6 different ordering and pickup systems simultaneously and we know that those don't talk to each other.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:35 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
As a software engineer I would they think they do, but from direct observation it seems like the kitchen staff is physically in the feedback loop and signal when to throttle orders or shut down ordering completely. It seems dangerously easy to miss a beat or forget to hit the kill button and suddenly your kitchen is 45 minutes behind.
On top of it, almost every place I've visited seems to be using between 3 and 6 different ordering and pickup systems simultaneously and we know that those don't talk to each other.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:35 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
I still work at my friend's restaurant and bar and it's been a hell of a year for this industry.
We're actually one of the good and fun places to work in the area to the point that before the pandemic there was basically a waiting list of people that actually wanted to work there. We paid well, we have a generous free food/drink program and a hefty employee discount, and the tips didn't suck. No, unfortunately we can't afford health insurance for employees, but our state's health care program is really good.
But during the entire pandemic we've had a hell of a time finding anyone that wants to work at all. We're all burnt out and understaffed. We're only open a little less than half of the week. The establishment hasn't been open for 7 days a week in well over a year and it used to be hopping and very popular. And we barely even do to go orders at all, and no online ordering or 3rd party delivery apps.
I've been there wearing lots of different hats from the dish pit and cooking to doing graphic design and tech work. I clean bathrooms and do all sorts of other dirty work.
Working in dishwashing might be one the riskiest pandemic jobs out there that isn't health care, but it's an important job that needs to be done well, and even without the pandemic it is - as it has always been - the most important and necessary job in any restaurant or bar.
There's no better way to fuck up everything else in a restaurant than not having someone on point and hustling and working really hard in the dish pit. Even on a mildly busy night we might go through all of our dishes and silverware 2-3 times during kitchen hours.
And a good dishwasher is about way more than just washing dishes. A good dishwasher knows where all of the things go, how to pay attention to what the line cooks and staff need ASAP, where all of the cleaning and related auxiliary supplies are and often does everything from busing tables to cleaning up spills or even biohazards like vomit and blood because humans are gross. A good dishwasher is worth a lot more than minimum wage in almost any restaurant and while it's a lot of hard work it's not exactly unskilled labor.
If i was working for just about any other place without this really great crew of coworkers that appreciate and understand how hard it is to be a dishwasher I wouldn't even be there. I don't take any shit and I get more than my legally required share of breaks and plenty of time to sit down and rest my feet because I work hard, fast and efficiently and stay on top of the work. I am very well appreciated and my coworkers love it when I'm there to support them.
I'm mainly doing it because it needs to be done and we can't find anyone else who is willing to do it and show up, be sober while working, take the job seriously and generally not fuck around.
I'm doing this hard, filthy work despite the fact I have another much easier job doing remote support and some basic web design and dev work for a small and local hosting and dev company. It would actually be nice if I could focus on other things in support of the restaurant, like infrastructure projects or business development and promotion.
So, all of that being said?
I know a lot of people that work in this industry, and the stimulus payments, increased unemployment benefits like PUA, rent assistance or relief and other financial windfalls are definitely a sea change for a lot of people who have been re-evaluating their entire lives and relationships with this kind of work - especially reconsidering the almost universally abusive nature of restaurant and food service work.
I know so many people who are so used to being working yet poor and broke all the time that they've been doing things like saving up money and using it for things like changing careers, going back to school, paying off debts or otherwise investing in themselves and taking a much needed break from the rat race and living paycheck to paycheck. There's a bunch of people that actually have some savings in their bank accounts and somewhat increased economic stability, and this is a good thing.
In general they are not using these economic windfalls to party, go on vacations or otherwise blowing it.
For a whole lot of food service workers the general sentiment is that the pandemic has been a very strange relief and break in the form of a much needed paid and forced vacation from the endless circus of a shit show that is the restaurant industry.
This seems to hold even for the ones that have worked through it, because basically any place that stayed open for delivery or takeout has been utterly swamped with business and it has been lucrative. Even the tips were generally better because of the stimulus money. And if you are someone that had your primary hours cut the partial unemployment benefits were also good.
And the other common sentiment is that no one really wants to go back to normal and how brutal and underpaid this work is, and the threat of getting sick or catching C19 is only part of that equation.
And business owners, policy makers and economists are surprised that people don't want to go back to work in the food service industry?
You'd have to be a complete moron to fail to understand why.
posted by loquacious at 11:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [96 favorites]
We're actually one of the good and fun places to work in the area to the point that before the pandemic there was basically a waiting list of people that actually wanted to work there. We paid well, we have a generous free food/drink program and a hefty employee discount, and the tips didn't suck. No, unfortunately we can't afford health insurance for employees, but our state's health care program is really good.
But during the entire pandemic we've had a hell of a time finding anyone that wants to work at all. We're all burnt out and understaffed. We're only open a little less than half of the week. The establishment hasn't been open for 7 days a week in well over a year and it used to be hopping and very popular. And we barely even do to go orders at all, and no online ordering or 3rd party delivery apps.
I've been there wearing lots of different hats from the dish pit and cooking to doing graphic design and tech work. I clean bathrooms and do all sorts of other dirty work.
Working in dishwashing might be one the riskiest pandemic jobs out there that isn't health care, but it's an important job that needs to be done well, and even without the pandemic it is - as it has always been - the most important and necessary job in any restaurant or bar.
There's no better way to fuck up everything else in a restaurant than not having someone on point and hustling and working really hard in the dish pit. Even on a mildly busy night we might go through all of our dishes and silverware 2-3 times during kitchen hours.
And a good dishwasher is about way more than just washing dishes. A good dishwasher knows where all of the things go, how to pay attention to what the line cooks and staff need ASAP, where all of the cleaning and related auxiliary supplies are and often does everything from busing tables to cleaning up spills or even biohazards like vomit and blood because humans are gross. A good dishwasher is worth a lot more than minimum wage in almost any restaurant and while it's a lot of hard work it's not exactly unskilled labor.
If i was working for just about any other place without this really great crew of coworkers that appreciate and understand how hard it is to be a dishwasher I wouldn't even be there. I don't take any shit and I get more than my legally required share of breaks and plenty of time to sit down and rest my feet because I work hard, fast and efficiently and stay on top of the work. I am very well appreciated and my coworkers love it when I'm there to support them.
I'm mainly doing it because it needs to be done and we can't find anyone else who is willing to do it and show up, be sober while working, take the job seriously and generally not fuck around.
I'm doing this hard, filthy work despite the fact I have another much easier job doing remote support and some basic web design and dev work for a small and local hosting and dev company. It would actually be nice if I could focus on other things in support of the restaurant, like infrastructure projects or business development and promotion.
So, all of that being said?
I know a lot of people that work in this industry, and the stimulus payments, increased unemployment benefits like PUA, rent assistance or relief and other financial windfalls are definitely a sea change for a lot of people who have been re-evaluating their entire lives and relationships with this kind of work - especially reconsidering the almost universally abusive nature of restaurant and food service work.
I know so many people who are so used to being working yet poor and broke all the time that they've been doing things like saving up money and using it for things like changing careers, going back to school, paying off debts or otherwise investing in themselves and taking a much needed break from the rat race and living paycheck to paycheck. There's a bunch of people that actually have some savings in their bank accounts and somewhat increased economic stability, and this is a good thing.
In general they are not using these economic windfalls to party, go on vacations or otherwise blowing it.
For a whole lot of food service workers the general sentiment is that the pandemic has been a very strange relief and break in the form of a much needed paid and forced vacation from the endless circus of a shit show that is the restaurant industry.
This seems to hold even for the ones that have worked through it, because basically any place that stayed open for delivery or takeout has been utterly swamped with business and it has been lucrative. Even the tips were generally better because of the stimulus money. And if you are someone that had your primary hours cut the partial unemployment benefits were also good.
And the other common sentiment is that no one really wants to go back to normal and how brutal and underpaid this work is, and the threat of getting sick or catching C19 is only part of that equation.
And business owners, policy makers and economists are surprised that people don't want to go back to work in the food service industry?
You'd have to be a complete moron to fail to understand why.
posted by loquacious at 11:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [96 favorites]
Agricultural labor is also pretty dangerous, and should pay well.
A single individual, starting with no debt, can maybe squeak by on minimum wage and 40 hours. They'll have to have a reliable roommate, and no crises. Fast food and many retail jobs don't offer 40 hours. Maybe 30, more in peak seasons, with slack in the schedule so no one ever gets overtime. Right now, people are probably getting plenty of hours, but businesses will not keep employees on 40+ hrs/wk when they don't have to. And lots of people have children, who need clothing, food, and child care. Many workers have debt, because they bought a car, took a year of college, have expensive prescriptions, had a pet that needed health care, spent more than they earned in any number of ways. Living precariously is terribly stressful. Everybody deserves to have some budget for fun, whether it's a pet, books, music, etc.
There are a lot of older workers who will work flexible schedules; we are treated as unskilled and undesirable. If the labor market has changed, stop whining; change your business. Hire more geezers, people with handicaps, look at what your workers actually need, see what you can do to help them out. Businesses want to turn on a tap, flowing with workers who will accept any wage, any conditions. If it's not like that any more, good.
Employers want employees to be committed, flexible and loyal, but do not want to treat employees that way.
posted by theora55 at 11:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
A single individual, starting with no debt, can maybe squeak by on minimum wage and 40 hours. They'll have to have a reliable roommate, and no crises. Fast food and many retail jobs don't offer 40 hours. Maybe 30, more in peak seasons, with slack in the schedule so no one ever gets overtime. Right now, people are probably getting plenty of hours, but businesses will not keep employees on 40+ hrs/wk when they don't have to. And lots of people have children, who need clothing, food, and child care. Many workers have debt, because they bought a car, took a year of college, have expensive prescriptions, had a pet that needed health care, spent more than they earned in any number of ways. Living precariously is terribly stressful. Everybody deserves to have some budget for fun, whether it's a pet, books, music, etc.
There are a lot of older workers who will work flexible schedules; we are treated as unskilled and undesirable. If the labor market has changed, stop whining; change your business. Hire more geezers, people with handicaps, look at what your workers actually need, see what you can do to help them out. Businesses want to turn on a tap, flowing with workers who will accept any wage, any conditions. If it's not like that any more, good.
Employers want employees to be committed, flexible and loyal, but do not want to treat employees that way.
posted by theora55 at 11:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
How there are not CEO heads on pikes already is beyond me.
Because talk is, and has always been, cheap. Action has costs, and it's easier to not incur those costs while simultaneously trying to feel better about things by ranting online and getting some cheap beer at the local hypermart. Nobody wants to make the first move, because they value cheap beer and online rants more than being killed by private security in the hope of sparking a wider movement.
This argument also seems like an oversimplification of things. What private security shooting people? Where? At the local McDonald’s? What nobody isn’t making the first move, and what's that first move supposed to be? Going to the local 7-Eleven and telling the workers that they should rise up? Pretty sure that first move would get you chucked out but not shot.
I absolutely don’t have my ear to the ground when it comes to labor activities, but the last big “labor event” that I heard about in the US was when the majority of Amazon workers at the Bessemer plant voted resoundingly against unionization despite a strong push by pro-Union forces. Surely Amazon used various heavy tactics to push for this, but my normie sense of things is that a) the masses who would opt for unionization aren’t themselves as fired up about it as they should be for it to take hold, and b) the pro-Union forces had no idea what they were doing.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:38 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Because talk is, and has always been, cheap. Action has costs, and it's easier to not incur those costs while simultaneously trying to feel better about things by ranting online and getting some cheap beer at the local hypermart. Nobody wants to make the first move, because they value cheap beer and online rants more than being killed by private security in the hope of sparking a wider movement.
This argument also seems like an oversimplification of things. What private security shooting people? Where? At the local McDonald’s? What nobody isn’t making the first move, and what's that first move supposed to be? Going to the local 7-Eleven and telling the workers that they should rise up? Pretty sure that first move would get you chucked out but not shot.
I absolutely don’t have my ear to the ground when it comes to labor activities, but the last big “labor event” that I heard about in the US was when the majority of Amazon workers at the Bessemer plant voted resoundingly against unionization despite a strong push by pro-Union forces. Surely Amazon used various heavy tactics to push for this, but my normie sense of things is that a) the masses who would opt for unionization aren’t themselves as fired up about it as they should be for it to take hold, and b) the pro-Union forces had no idea what they were doing.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:38 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
What nobody isn’t making the first move, and what's that first move supposed to be?
Generally making the first move involves finding out who the CEOs even are, because no matter how often you read about such and such billionaire and their security practices or about lotto winners and people harassing them for money, the reality is that most CEOs are extremely anonymous old white dudes whose kids probably go/went to your local uppity private school and the average person would have to do some super-level stalking to even figure out who they are.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Generally making the first move involves finding out who the CEOs even are, because no matter how often you read about such and such billionaire and their security practices or about lotto winners and people harassing them for money, the reality is that most CEOs are extremely anonymous old white dudes whose kids probably go/went to your local uppity private school and the average person would have to do some super-level stalking to even figure out who they are.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:43 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Isn't tipping in America only practiced in the sorts of jobs where the wage is well below minimum wage, and the employment is implicitly a licence to hustle for tips?
It used to be that way, but tip jars have popped up in all kinds of places.
Especially with the growth of the "tablet with card reader" form of payment processing, an add a tip screen has become much more ubiquitous even in straight retails transactions.
posted by madajb at 11:44 AM on May 17, 2021
It used to be that way, but tip jars have popped up in all kinds of places.
Especially with the growth of the "tablet with card reader" form of payment processing, an add a tip screen has become much more ubiquitous even in straight retails transactions.
posted by madajb at 11:44 AM on May 17, 2021
As of a few days ago, due to Covid, there were 583,000 fewer Americans; 110,420 of the Covid deaths were people under 65. Some additional number were harmed by Covid and unable to work. What effect is this having on the unemployment numbers? Fast food operations in my state were required to stop seating customers and go drive-thru only. But did they follow precautions for the staff? I felt bad for grocery workers, many are not young, and therefore at real risk from Covid. Precautions were enacted, but it still seemed pretty high risk. Retail workers in general were at risk because, inside.
posted by theora55 at 11:46 AM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:46 AM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
Another big factor is childcare. Why start a new job without PTO that requires in-person work if you might have to quit to stay home to look after a kid in a month or two? Not all schools are back to being fully in-person, and those that are still run the risk of temporary shutdowns due to an outbreak since most kids can't get vaccination. At my currently-WFH office job, our earliest-possible-return-to-office date right now is end of September, despite pretty good vaccination rates, because the senior leadership realizes that it would be incredibly burdensome to make employees scramble to find summer childcare on short notice.
I would also imagine (though haven't seen any data on it) that the dynamics discussed in this thread are also impacting the cost and availability of childcare and further tilting the calculations towards pressuring a parent to not re-enter the workforce.
posted by bassooner at 11:46 AM on May 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
I would also imagine (though haven't seen any data on it) that the dynamics discussed in this thread are also impacting the cost and availability of childcare and further tilting the calculations towards pressuring a parent to not re-enter the workforce.
posted by bassooner at 11:46 AM on May 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
Or, maybe this whole story is just bullshit, and restaurants are just having trouble hiring because they are the best-performing sector in the job-market, they have hired lots of people, and they're just running out of potential employees at current wage-levels.
This is 100% part of the propaganda campaign to justify ending enhanced unemployment benefits early. It's pretty obvious given how quickly the whole thing popped up shortly after a few states had made the decision and was suddenly plastering the news within a day or two, always with exactly the same talking points.
This seems to misconstrue the first comment, which argues that if no one wants to work for $7.50 you need to offer them $9.50 (or even $11 or the vaunted $15). Increase wage-levels to increase the pool of potential employees.
The fact that folks want to end unemployment support are making the same argument is because they agree on the facts: these jobs pay too little relative to unemployment. The question is how you interpret the facts. Either way, people can simply be refusing to work not because there’s a mass movement but because they don’t want to take low pay for a bad job.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:54 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is 100% part of the propaganda campaign to justify ending enhanced unemployment benefits early. It's pretty obvious given how quickly the whole thing popped up shortly after a few states had made the decision and was suddenly plastering the news within a day or two, always with exactly the same talking points.
This seems to misconstrue the first comment, which argues that if no one wants to work for $7.50 you need to offer them $9.50 (or even $11 or the vaunted $15). Increase wage-levels to increase the pool of potential employees.
The fact that folks want to end unemployment support are making the same argument is because they agree on the facts: these jobs pay too little relative to unemployment. The question is how you interpret the facts. Either way, people can simply be refusing to work not because there’s a mass movement but because they don’t want to take low pay for a bad job.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:54 AM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
This seems more like a case of “A reporter saw some tweets with some photos” rather than actual evidence of a mass movement. Happy to be wrong, though.
I don't know about a mass movement, but I passed by a restaurant yesterday with a sign claiming they had to reduce their hours of operation did to lack of staff.
Our governor's response has been to essentially steal COVID benefits from the unemployed and offer them as incentives to people taking new jobs.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:55 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't know about a mass movement, but I passed by a restaurant yesterday with a sign claiming they had to reduce their hours of operation did to lack of staff.
Our governor's response has been to essentially steal COVID benefits from the unemployed and offer them as incentives to people taking new jobs.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:55 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
Generally making the first move involves finding out who the CEOs even are,
Any given CEO might not be well known, but I've never heard of one being secret? For a relevant example I tried Darden Restaurants, and the CEO is listed under "Our Company > Executive Leadership" on the website.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 11:57 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Any given CEO might not be well known, but I've never heard of one being secret? For a relevant example I tried Darden Restaurants, and the CEO is listed under "Our Company > Executive Leadership" on the website.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 11:57 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One comment removed. Please do not use "Karen" as a pejorative term. It is pretty gendered/sexist
posted by loup (staff) at 12:00 PM on May 17, 2021 [32 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:00 PM on May 17, 2021 [32 favorites]
Another big factor is childcare.
Yeah it's kind of stunning to me that childcare hasn't been a bigger part of this conversation (except to the extent that I think a lot of the "poor suffering employers" parts of this "conversation" are actually astroturfed propaganda, so you can't really expect that to be too grounded in actual facts). I mean, it's pretty basic and obvious that anybody who goes to work for X hours and, as a result, needs to pay for childcare for X hours, needs to be earning more per hour than the hourly rate of childcare, or they're taking a loss. (And that's all assuming perfect availability of childcare.) Even if you make more than what you're shelling out for someone to look after your kid, the net wages after childcare is factored in might still not be enough to incentivize busting your ass in a shitty job over the non-tangible (or at least non-financial) benefits of being home with your child(ren) yourself.
COVID definitely exacerbated that situation, or at least laid bare just how much of our labor force requires schools and relatives to provide free childcare in order for us to have a functional economy.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:07 PM on May 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
Yeah it's kind of stunning to me that childcare hasn't been a bigger part of this conversation (except to the extent that I think a lot of the "poor suffering employers" parts of this "conversation" are actually astroturfed propaganda, so you can't really expect that to be too grounded in actual facts). I mean, it's pretty basic and obvious that anybody who goes to work for X hours and, as a result, needs to pay for childcare for X hours, needs to be earning more per hour than the hourly rate of childcare, or they're taking a loss. (And that's all assuming perfect availability of childcare.) Even if you make more than what you're shelling out for someone to look after your kid, the net wages after childcare is factored in might still not be enough to incentivize busting your ass in a shitty job over the non-tangible (or at least non-financial) benefits of being home with your child(ren) yourself.
COVID definitely exacerbated that situation, or at least laid bare just how much of our labor force requires schools and relatives to provide free childcare in order for us to have a functional economy.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:07 PM on May 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
This sort of dynamic reminds me of public transit; the vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the politicians at every level of government (in Canada, at least) never use it,
A decade ago Toronto mayor David Miller was famously taking the subway to work every day. His successor, the inglorious Rob Ford (with a history of DUIs) was occasionally photographed reading briefing papers while driving his Escalade on the expressway.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:09 PM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
A decade ago Toronto mayor David Miller was famously taking the subway to work every day. His successor, the inglorious Rob Ford (with a history of DUIs) was occasionally photographed reading briefing papers while driving his Escalade on the expressway.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:09 PM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
do the online systems not gate for restaurant capacity?
Ours does not, buy we can adjust the estimated time for pick up. We start the night at 15 minutes, as it gets busier we adjust out to 20, then 30, and on slamming nights all the way out to an hour.
And as loquacious said, I personally know several former restaurant people who have changed their lives during the pandemic, have new jobs or careers outside of the industry, and will likely never come back. Why would they want to return to late nights, high stress, fatty food, drinking and drunk people, and don't forget the sexual harassment from creepy customers.
We used to be 11-11 seven days a week. Now we are 5-9 five days a week, will probably go to 5-10 six days a week soon. Gov. Baker announced just today that ALL restrictions here in the Bay State go away at the end of May. Great, right? Nope. If I put all the tables and bar seats we removed back and tried to operate my bartenders and servers would not be able to keep up, and service would suck. So we will have no choice but to keep limited seating, and customers won't understand why and will get pissed. It is already happening.
posted by vrakatar at 12:11 PM on May 17, 2021 [20 favorites]
Ours does not, buy we can adjust the estimated time for pick up. We start the night at 15 minutes, as it gets busier we adjust out to 20, then 30, and on slamming nights all the way out to an hour.
And as loquacious said, I personally know several former restaurant people who have changed their lives during the pandemic, have new jobs or careers outside of the industry, and will likely never come back. Why would they want to return to late nights, high stress, fatty food, drinking and drunk people, and don't forget the sexual harassment from creepy customers.
We used to be 11-11 seven days a week. Now we are 5-9 five days a week, will probably go to 5-10 six days a week soon. Gov. Baker announced just today that ALL restrictions here in the Bay State go away at the end of May. Great, right? Nope. If I put all the tables and bar seats we removed back and tried to operate my bartenders and servers would not be able to keep up, and service would suck. So we will have no choice but to keep limited seating, and customers won't understand why and will get pissed. It is already happening.
posted by vrakatar at 12:11 PM on May 17, 2021 [20 favorites]
Generally making the first move involves finding out who the CEOs even are...
Every publicly traded company has to list their executives in their annual reports, including their salaries, benefits, bonuses, etc. It's all public documentation, not too hard to find. It is incredibly eye-opening to see what these cats make. Often their actual salaries aren't that big but then there are bonuses in the eight-figure range, and they apparently get these bonuses no matter how the business is doing.
posted by nushustu at 12:18 PM on May 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Every publicly traded company has to list their executives in their annual reports, including their salaries, benefits, bonuses, etc. It's all public documentation, not too hard to find. It is incredibly eye-opening to see what these cats make. Often their actual salaries aren't that big but then there are bonuses in the eight-figure range, and they apparently get these bonuses no matter how the business is doing.
posted by nushustu at 12:18 PM on May 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
They are also required to calculate the ratio between their salary and the average worker. I wish that figure had more of an effect on people (other than the effect it has on my blood pressure).
posted by scolbath at 12:26 PM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by scolbath at 12:26 PM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
COVID definitely exacerbated that situation, or at least laid bare just how much of our labor force requires schools and relatives to provide free childcare in order for us to have a functional economy.
Absolutely this, and women are more likely to be caregivers for relatives with long COVID, AND older family members that might have provided childcare have died. It's such a tragic domino effect.
And teachers left the workforce a lot this year too. And we haven't yet seen the impact of how many fewer college students (also primarily women) took a look around and decided being a teacher was not worth it right now. That's gonna be a several-year cascade.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:27 PM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
Absolutely this, and women are more likely to be caregivers for relatives with long COVID, AND older family members that might have provided childcare have died. It's such a tragic domino effect.
And teachers left the workforce a lot this year too. And we haven't yet seen the impact of how many fewer college students (also primarily women) took a look around and decided being a teacher was not worth it right now. That's gonna be a several-year cascade.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:27 PM on May 17, 2021 [12 favorites]
the problem isn't low wages, it's higher rents, and raising wages isn't going to lower the higher rents.
You’re not wrong. Wages and rents have been going in the opposite direction for decades. Thirty years ago, my last apartment in my industrial hometown was a two-bedroom. My roommate moved out to go to school and I stayed on by myself: his old room became the guest bedroom, I suppose. The rent in the entire place was, according to the Bank of Canada inflation calculator, about $840 in 2021 dollars.
These days it’s unusual to find a studio place that is under four digits, and the average for a two-bedroom is closing in on $2000.
Incidentally, if you guys think minimum wage is a struggle, you’d find disability hilarious. If I were to find one of those aforementioned studio apartments at the average price, I’d have slightly over a dollar a day available for food, clothing, transportation, medical expenses, and entertainment.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:31 PM on May 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
You’re not wrong. Wages and rents have been going in the opposite direction for decades. Thirty years ago, my last apartment in my industrial hometown was a two-bedroom. My roommate moved out to go to school and I stayed on by myself: his old room became the guest bedroom, I suppose. The rent in the entire place was, according to the Bank of Canada inflation calculator, about $840 in 2021 dollars.
These days it’s unusual to find a studio place that is under four digits, and the average for a two-bedroom is closing in on $2000.
Incidentally, if you guys think minimum wage is a struggle, you’d find disability hilarious. If I were to find one of those aforementioned studio apartments at the average price, I’d have slightly over a dollar a day available for food, clothing, transportation, medical expenses, and entertainment.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:31 PM on May 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
After watching the meltdown in my local pizza place on Friday night, I think we're headed for this perfect storm...
word. i ordered my usual carry out from a local indian place that's a reliable B+. when i picked up, the dining room and patio were full with a line. my food took 100% longer, the entree was raw, the dal was so thin. inedible. I won't go back for 6 months. it was a shitshow. owners and cooks fighting in the kitchen while i waited for my food. "we have plenty of rice, so much else is 86ed." "stretch everything!"
pooled tips...
you gotta ask the server, and adjust. also ask, does the owner skim tips? also, always tip in cash. managers run closeouts, and you'll never know if they fuck with the cc tips.
are online systems throttled? the kitchen keeps the orders at capacity?
no and no. as long as ingredients are available, owners will keep taking orders. at best: "we're short staffed, it will take longer than normal."
posted by j_curiouser at 12:34 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
word. i ordered my usual carry out from a local indian place that's a reliable B+. when i picked up, the dining room and patio were full with a line. my food took 100% longer, the entree was raw, the dal was so thin. inedible. I won't go back for 6 months. it was a shitshow. owners and cooks fighting in the kitchen while i waited for my food. "we have plenty of rice, so much else is 86ed." "stretch everything!"
pooled tips...
you gotta ask the server, and adjust. also ask, does the owner skim tips? also, always tip in cash. managers run closeouts, and you'll never know if they fuck with the cc tips.
are online systems throttled? the kitchen keeps the orders at capacity?
no and no. as long as ingredients are available, owners will keep taking orders. at best: "we're short staffed, it will take longer than normal."
posted by j_curiouser at 12:34 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Personally, I want to work.
Ideally, I'd like a job in the field in which I have experience, and for which I have trained.
However, I would potentially be interested in re-skilling and finding work in a new field, possibly even for lower pay. The caveat here being that I would need to find a way to get rid of my massive student debt before then, otherwise there would simply no point in working for less while still making crippling student loan payments. The impact on my quality of life would be too great.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:49 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ideally, I'd like a job in the field in which I have experience, and for which I have trained.
However, I would potentially be interested in re-skilling and finding work in a new field, possibly even for lower pay. The caveat here being that I would need to find a way to get rid of my massive student debt before then, otherwise there would simply no point in working for less while still making crippling student loan payments. The impact on my quality of life would be too great.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:49 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
But during the entire pandemic we've had a hell of a time finding anyone that wants to work at all.
You've personally talked to every unemployed person in your area and verified that their motivation for not applying for your job is that they don't want to work at all? That's an amazing feat, and I can think of many, many social scientists, census workers, pollsters, and marketing research firms that would love to know your methodology or approach that yields such success at discerning the motivations of people who aren't directly seeking you out!
Given the rest of your comment, maybe this isn't what you meant, though, and that you've used the exact phrasing of the anti-worker propaganda signs that we're discussing in this thread is an unintentional mistake?
posted by eviemath at 12:50 PM on May 17, 2021 [15 favorites]
You've personally talked to every unemployed person in your area and verified that their motivation for not applying for your job is that they don't want to work at all? That's an amazing feat, and I can think of many, many social scientists, census workers, pollsters, and marketing research firms that would love to know your methodology or approach that yields such success at discerning the motivations of people who aren't directly seeking you out!
Given the rest of your comment, maybe this isn't what you meant, though, and that you've used the exact phrasing of the anti-worker propaganda signs that we're discussing in this thread is an unintentional mistake?
posted by eviemath at 12:50 PM on May 17, 2021 [15 favorites]
I won't go back for 6 months. it was a shitshow.
This was happening at a ramen place in my neighborhood even before the pandemic started. My dining-in experience (which tends to have higher margins for the restaurant) was completely ruined because the kitchen was too busy putting out to-go orders from the app. If an owner can't appropriately plan staffing and inventory to accommodate app sales along with regular dining, they shouldn't be doing them in the first place.
Also, who orders ramen for delivery? I mean, honestly!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:54 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
This was happening at a ramen place in my neighborhood even before the pandemic started. My dining-in experience (which tends to have higher margins for the restaurant) was completely ruined because the kitchen was too busy putting out to-go orders from the app. If an owner can't appropriately plan staffing and inventory to accommodate app sales along with regular dining, they shouldn't be doing them in the first place.
Also, who orders ramen for delivery? I mean, honestly!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:54 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
I am really curious, and we probably won’t see these numbers or analysis for some time, but a portion of this has got to be that anyone who could find a job elsewhere just did. Even if it seemed shitty, it’s better than working in food service.
Like, I worked as a coffee roaster for a decade. In retrospect it sucked. The pay sucked, the hours were okay, there were never benefits and since I worked for smaller businesses, the boundaries were shockingly abysmal. OSHA violations all the time. Unhealthy power dynamics that are frankly, abusive.
I lost my job in the pandemic. Because no jobs were available to me in my old line of work, I found a new job that’s rad in a bunch of ways (grey benefits, good union, pension, pay still kinda blows though...) but is very much a “starting over” job. However, now that I’m out of that cycle of working food-adjacent jobs, there’s no way on earth I’d go back. I had a former employer approach me about a pretty lucrative job offset and I declined, pretty quick too. Fuck that sick system man. I don’t even really patronize coffee businesses anymore (except a few owned by good friends). Once you break out of it, man...why go back? Even if they’re willing to pay you just that little bit more?
posted by furnace.heart at 12:58 PM on May 17, 2021 [23 favorites]
Like, I worked as a coffee roaster for a decade. In retrospect it sucked. The pay sucked, the hours were okay, there were never benefits and since I worked for smaller businesses, the boundaries were shockingly abysmal. OSHA violations all the time. Unhealthy power dynamics that are frankly, abusive.
I lost my job in the pandemic. Because no jobs were available to me in my old line of work, I found a new job that’s rad in a bunch of ways (grey benefits, good union, pension, pay still kinda blows though...) but is very much a “starting over” job. However, now that I’m out of that cycle of working food-adjacent jobs, there’s no way on earth I’d go back. I had a former employer approach me about a pretty lucrative job offset and I declined, pretty quick too. Fuck that sick system man. I don’t even really patronize coffee businesses anymore (except a few owned by good friends). Once you break out of it, man...why go back? Even if they’re willing to pay you just that little bit more?
posted by furnace.heart at 12:58 PM on May 17, 2021 [23 favorites]
As of a few days ago, due to Covid, there were 583,000 fewer Americans
The United States alone is estimated to have had 905,000 Covid-19 fatalities, vastly more than the 579,000 [584,000, as of May 16, at Johns Hopkins; 600,000, as of May 17, at Statista] deaths officially reported - Vox, May 7, 2021.
Line cooks had a 60% increase in mortality associated with the pandemic. The top five occupations that had higher than a 50% mortality rate increase during the pandemic include cooks, line workers in warehouses, agricultural workers, bakers and construction laborers. - CNBC, Feb. 2, 2021; CA Jan. study
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:02 PM on May 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
The United States alone is estimated to have had 905,000 Covid-19 fatalities, vastly more than the 579,000 [584,000, as of May 16, at Johns Hopkins; 600,000, as of May 17, at Statista] deaths officially reported - Vox, May 7, 2021.
Line cooks had a 60% increase in mortality associated with the pandemic. The top five occupations that had higher than a 50% mortality rate increase during the pandemic include cooks, line workers in warehouses, agricultural workers, bakers and construction laborers. - CNBC, Feb. 2, 2021; CA Jan. study
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:02 PM on May 17, 2021 [29 favorites]
Also, who orders ramen for delivery? I mean, honestly!
People who don't have cars to get to ramen restaurants. People who find ramen restaurants are crowded and have long lines and don't accommodate their mobility equipment. People who are sick at home and want soup.
Ramen delivers perfectly nicely, fwiw, although the amount of packaging necessary to make that happen is truly horrifying.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:06 PM on May 17, 2021 [36 favorites]
People who don't have cars to get to ramen restaurants. People who find ramen restaurants are crowded and have long lines and don't accommodate their mobility equipment. People who are sick at home and want soup.
Ramen delivers perfectly nicely, fwiw, although the amount of packaging necessary to make that happen is truly horrifying.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:06 PM on May 17, 2021 [36 favorites]
It's fine to say, well, then there shouldn't be that many restaurants; if people want to eat out or hang around a bar while they drink they should pay more and do it less often
Restaurants could also just shift some of the labor that a waitperson or busser does to the customer. This was already happening pre-pandemic with the popularity of food halls and fast casual restaurants that had customers do things like take their own food to a table or bus their own plates. I think this allows restaurants to keep prices lower and pay a higher wage for staff at the restaurant, but at the cost of hiring less staff.
So, I think there will always be places to sit down and eat. It's just the way it happens will change.
posted by FJT at 1:20 PM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Restaurants could also just shift some of the labor that a waitperson or busser does to the customer. This was already happening pre-pandemic with the popularity of food halls and fast casual restaurants that had customers do things like take their own food to a table or bus their own plates. I think this allows restaurants to keep prices lower and pay a higher wage for staff at the restaurant, but at the cost of hiring less staff.
So, I think there will always be places to sit down and eat. It's just the way it happens will change.
posted by FJT at 1:20 PM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Ramen delivers perfectly nicely
Weaving through traffic on a bicycle with a bowl of piping hot soup strapped to your back, and we wonder why people don't want these jobs.
posted by adept256 at 1:45 PM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
Weaving through traffic on a bicycle with a bowl of piping hot soup strapped to your back, and we wonder why people don't want these jobs.
posted by adept256 at 1:45 PM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I am really curious, and we probably won’t see these numbers or analysis for some time, but a portion of this has got to be that anyone who could find a job elsewhere just did. Even if it seemed shitty, it’s better than working in food service.
YES! This also echoes what I've heard from friends who left retail and teaching jobs, as well. No matter how "competitive" the pay allegedly was (and it was never really that competitive), the pay didn't make up for the constant threats the job posed to the workers' personal health and safety.
All these jobs were already hazardous. You're on your feet all damn day. You're expected to bend over backwards to please the public, roughly one-third of which are Trumpists who think they can demonstrate status by treating you like a punching bag or a petting zoo. You're also under endless pressure to meet unrealistic goals set by management with no on-the-ground experience.
And suddenly there's a plague on, and nobody's offering you hazard pay, but it's suddenly your job to enforce a whole new stack of rules on people who have no respect for you?
I don't blame anyone who walked away from these jobs. Whatever compensation was on offer, it wasn't generous enough.
posted by armeowda at 2:10 PM on May 17, 2021 [48 favorites]
YES! This also echoes what I've heard from friends who left retail and teaching jobs, as well. No matter how "competitive" the pay allegedly was (and it was never really that competitive), the pay didn't make up for the constant threats the job posed to the workers' personal health and safety.
All these jobs were already hazardous. You're on your feet all damn day. You're expected to bend over backwards to please the public, roughly one-third of which are Trumpists who think they can demonstrate status by treating you like a punching bag or a petting zoo. You're also under endless pressure to meet unrealistic goals set by management with no on-the-ground experience.
And suddenly there's a plague on, and nobody's offering you hazard pay, but it's suddenly your job to enforce a whole new stack of rules on people who have no respect for you?
I don't blame anyone who walked away from these jobs. Whatever compensation was on offer, it wasn't generous enough.
posted by armeowda at 2:10 PM on May 17, 2021 [48 favorites]
I assumed bartenders made good money just getting so many tips. I guess working not super busy bars or shifts makes it a real feast or famine enterprise?
The thing about ranking workers by wages is that of course service industry people are going to be all over that because their wages are allowed to be lower than minimum wage because of tips. Here in MI the service minimum wage is something like $3.59 an hour (with the caveat that the employer must make up the difference between that and standard minimum wage if tips do not). The reality is of course that tipped employees make most of their money as tips, not wages.
IME bartenders in places with a decent-to-busy bar (that is not fine dining) tend to make the best money of all tipped employees. On a busy night that could mean hundreds of dollars in tips (the rule of thumb is that a shift where you make $100 is decent, and a busy shift can triple that or more). That income is very hidden from the government, of course, since (cash) tips are untraceable and therefore untaxable. I've known bartenders who typically have thousands of dollars in cash just like stowed under their mattress or wherever (pre-COVID).
posted by axiom at 3:16 PM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
The thing about ranking workers by wages is that of course service industry people are going to be all over that because their wages are allowed to be lower than minimum wage because of tips. Here in MI the service minimum wage is something like $3.59 an hour (with the caveat that the employer must make up the difference between that and standard minimum wage if tips do not). The reality is of course that tipped employees make most of their money as tips, not wages.
IME bartenders in places with a decent-to-busy bar (that is not fine dining) tend to make the best money of all tipped employees. On a busy night that could mean hundreds of dollars in tips (the rule of thumb is that a shift where you make $100 is decent, and a busy shift can triple that or more). That income is very hidden from the government, of course, since (cash) tips are untraceable and therefore untaxable. I've known bartenders who typically have thousands of dollars in cash just like stowed under their mattress or wherever (pre-COVID).
posted by axiom at 3:16 PM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
>Weaving through traffic on a bicycle with a bowl of piping hot soup strapped to your back
http://abritishprofinjapan.blogspot.com/2017/03/delivering-noodles-without-spilling-drop.html
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:42 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
http://abritishprofinjapan.blogspot.com/2017/03/delivering-noodles-without-spilling-drop.html
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:42 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Chicken Wings Shortage Sees Prices Rise in Restaurants Across U.S. (Also Newsweek; same reporter; familiar format; published two days after the piece linked in the FPP) (Newsweek ditched its fact-checkers in 1996? However, they correct errors.)
Which Companies Have the Highest Number of Workers on Medicaid and Food Stamps? McDonald’s and Walmart top the list in 11 states, according to a government report. (Mother Jones, Nov. 22, 2020) Congress’ nonpartisan watchdog, the Government Accountability Office, released a report on Wednesday showing that most adults who receive Medicaid and SNAP (formerly known as food stamps) work full-time jobs but make very little money. The agency wanted to see exactly which companies employ them, so it examined data from 11 states and found that in each one, Walmart was among the top four companies with workers receiving these types of government assistance. McDonald’s was in the top five in at least nine states.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:10 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Which Companies Have the Highest Number of Workers on Medicaid and Food Stamps? McDonald’s and Walmart top the list in 11 states, according to a government report. (Mother Jones, Nov. 22, 2020) Congress’ nonpartisan watchdog, the Government Accountability Office, released a report on Wednesday showing that most adults who receive Medicaid and SNAP (formerly known as food stamps) work full-time jobs but make very little money. The agency wanted to see exactly which companies employ them, so it examined data from 11 states and found that in each one, Walmart was among the top four companies with workers receiving these types of government assistance. McDonald’s was in the top five in at least nine states.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:10 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've always felt that food service is one of the very most noble of all the professions--you're feeding the people. Christ fed the people.
Unfortunately, people mostly only really come around food when they're hungry, and at that point they want what they want and they want it ten minutes ago. It's like feeding live rats to hungry cobras, and sooner or later you're going to get bit.
The fact that, in this nation of privilege particularly, people continue to work in this sacred field ... not only do they deserve my gratitude and respect, they deserve an excellent wage. I want the food I put into my body to have been treated with love and respect, and when dining out that begins with fully loving and respecting my brothers and sisters who produce, make, and serve me that food. They deserve to be treated, in my view, with the same economic status as that of our most well-paid professions, as they are fundamental. What we value and spend on our fundamentals affects us in every other way we want to be.
posted by riverlife at 4:17 PM on May 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
Unfortunately, people mostly only really come around food when they're hungry, and at that point they want what they want and they want it ten minutes ago. It's like feeding live rats to hungry cobras, and sooner or later you're going to get bit.
The fact that, in this nation of privilege particularly, people continue to work in this sacred field ... not only do they deserve my gratitude and respect, they deserve an excellent wage. I want the food I put into my body to have been treated with love and respect, and when dining out that begins with fully loving and respecting my brothers and sisters who produce, make, and serve me that food. They deserve to be treated, in my view, with the same economic status as that of our most well-paid professions, as they are fundamental. What we value and spend on our fundamentals affects us in every other way we want to be.
posted by riverlife at 4:17 PM on May 17, 2021 [17 favorites]
Actually, I take that back. There's a couple of jobs that I'd trade time with my handicapped girlfriend to work. One requires a masters, and the other doesn't pay enough to justify moving from our support network
posted by Jacen at 4:17 PM on May 17, 2021
posted by Jacen at 4:17 PM on May 17, 2021
>sacred field
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=E6aH
Blue line is food/wages. Red line is rent/wages.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:32 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=E6aH
Blue line is food/wages. Red line is rent/wages.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:32 PM on May 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Walmart CEO made $26 million last year. Wonder how much they could raise the minimum wage at their stores if he was willing to accept less? If the rest of the board of directors was willing to make less?
He could personally give $10 to every single one of the 2.3 million Walmart employees worldwide and he'd STILL pull down $3 million.
Let's say we get another 9(*) executives on board for that and once a year give a total of $100 ($10 x 10) to each full time employee. A full time employee works approximately 2000 hours a year, so it would be a net wage increase of 5 cents per hour per employee.
(*) 9 is my estimate of how many other executives may have salaries above the $23 million a year needed for this to work
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:25 PM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
He could personally give $10 to every single one of the 2.3 million Walmart employees worldwide and he'd STILL pull down $3 million.
Let's say we get another 9(*) executives on board for that and once a year give a total of $100 ($10 x 10) to each full time employee. A full time employee works approximately 2000 hours a year, so it would be a net wage increase of 5 cents per hour per employee.
(*) 9 is my estimate of how many other executives may have salaries above the $23 million a year needed for this to work
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:25 PM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
My favorite tech website has a sort of credo: "There are no bad products, only bad prices."
Perhaps that same sort of logic applies here. Maybe there are no bad jobs, only bad wages.
posted by glonous keming at 5:37 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Perhaps that same sort of logic applies here. Maybe there are no bad jobs, only bad wages.
posted by glonous keming at 5:37 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Chicken Wings Shortage Sees Prices Rise in Restaurants Across U.S.
So that's an interesting article, and I'm an adventurous eater, but I'm sorry, I wouldn't order wings at the "Raw Bar."
Back to the point of the FPP, I have been wondering if at least locally there might not be another round of restaurant closings during reopening, just like there was during the shutdown. Not everywhere is going to be able to handle the transition (including being able to successfully staff up), though the blame is going to be on the people who don't want to work for low wages.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:37 PM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
So that's an interesting article, and I'm an adventurous eater, but I'm sorry, I wouldn't order wings at the "Raw Bar."
Back to the point of the FPP, I have been wondering if at least locally there might not be another round of restaurant closings during reopening, just like there was during the shutdown. Not everywhere is going to be able to handle the transition (including being able to successfully staff up), though the blame is going to be on the people who don't want to work for low wages.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:37 PM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I assumed bartenders made good money just getting so many tips. I guess working not super busy bars or shifts makes it a real feast or famine enterprise?
1. I know two former bartenders, one male and one female, and they've both told me that their tips decreased significantly along with their perceived attractiveness as they grew older, heavier and in one case, balder. A fair number of people apparently tip based on how much they want to bang the bartender rather than on service.
2. At many establishments, bartenders have to split their tips with other staff.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 5:58 PM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
1. I know two former bartenders, one male and one female, and they've both told me that their tips decreased significantly along with their perceived attractiveness as they grew older, heavier and in one case, balder. A fair number of people apparently tip based on how much they want to bang the bartender rather than on service.
2. At many establishments, bartenders have to split their tips with other staff.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 5:58 PM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
Tip the bar staff because they might be working their way towards congress! It makes me crazy how people use this
to dismiss AOC. I imagine you'd learn to read people pretty well in a job like that, you might come to understand the society around you in ways not available to others. Especially if they have their head up their ass and think working class people don't belong in politics.
posted by adept256 at 6:23 PM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
to dismiss AOC. I imagine you'd learn to read people pretty well in a job like that, you might come to understand the society around you in ways not available to others. Especially if they have their head up their ass and think working class people don't belong in politics.
posted by adept256 at 6:23 PM on May 17, 2021 [13 favorites]
One weird thing missing from this discussion is that there's actually pretty reasonable preliminary data that implies business owners are deeply mistaken about the effects of unemployment stimulus: a U of Chicago working paper shows that most of the effect has been on DEMAND, boosting spending by between 2.4 and 2.6 percent, with only roughly a .02 percent effect on the unemployment rate. U of C is basically ground zero for neoliberalism, so it's not like they're gonna fudge the numbers to support labor.
Businesses are facing a surge of demand, and so wants to cut off benefits that fuel that demand rather than increase pay for workers, which makes sense on some level, because the surge in demand is likely to be temporary, and wages are a longer-term investment, but their claims on cause are basically backwards.
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 PM on May 17, 2021 [25 favorites]
Businesses are facing a surge of demand, and so wants to cut off benefits that fuel that demand rather than increase pay for workers, which makes sense on some level, because the surge in demand is likely to be temporary, and wages are a longer-term investment, but their claims on cause are basically backwards.
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 PM on May 17, 2021 [25 favorites]
I worked retail for most of my life (from age 13 to 48* with a few breaks in between). Though in my teens I did work at some chains (Major Video, Jumbo Video), when I was 23 I lucked out and got a job at an independently owned video store called Art & Trash. I managed the store and made $22 an hour -- in 1993.
The owner was a man 17 years older than me who also owned a record store called Vortex Records. He had a few rules for his staff:
- You could work as many days a week as you wanted as long as it wasn't more than 3.
- You could work as many hours a day as you wanted as long as it wasn't less than 6 or more than 12.
- You got 3 weeks paid vacation a year and a large Christmas bonus. (One year my bonus was $3000).
- Anything you wanted to buy for yourself from the store you were charged $1 above cost.
At Art & Trash, I worked 36 hours a week (with an hour paid lunch break every day), 11 to 11 Friday through Sunday. I had the rest of the week off to live my life and do what I wanted.
When the store closed as the video store industry went to dust, I started managing Vortex. Did that for 8 years.
In 40 years of owning stores, with just one exception, that store owner never had an employee quit unless it was to move out of town, enter a non-retail workspace, open their own store, or go back to school. Four of his employees opened their own record stores.
Of the many people I've known who worked for him over the years, every one of them says it's the best job they ever had.
When I was 44 I left Vortex and I opened my own record store and had the same rules for my staff. I paid 60% above minimum wage with a $2/hr raise every year. I only had one employee but she worked for me from the day I opened till the day I closed.
*When I was 48 I had a small stroke and sold my inventory to a competitor and entered what I call "semi retirement."
Contrast that to every other one of my (Vortex and my own store's) competition: they all pay minimum wage with shift hours you don't choose. One of my competitors has the nerve to pay some of their wages in product -- by the store's choice, not the staffs'.
When asked how we did all this while offering the same prices as our competitors, the answer is dead simple: as an owner, I just took a little less home than I otherwise would. That's it. That's the secret.
It really is not that hard to pay a living wage and if you can't do it, you are a terrible business person and should accept that your desire to own a business doesn't trump other people's right to a good life.
posted by dobbs at 7:10 PM on May 17, 2021 [130 favorites]
The owner was a man 17 years older than me who also owned a record store called Vortex Records. He had a few rules for his staff:
- You could work as many days a week as you wanted as long as it wasn't more than 3.
- You could work as many hours a day as you wanted as long as it wasn't less than 6 or more than 12.
- You got 3 weeks paid vacation a year and a large Christmas bonus. (One year my bonus was $3000).
- Anything you wanted to buy for yourself from the store you were charged $1 above cost.
At Art & Trash, I worked 36 hours a week (with an hour paid lunch break every day), 11 to 11 Friday through Sunday. I had the rest of the week off to live my life and do what I wanted.
When the store closed as the video store industry went to dust, I started managing Vortex. Did that for 8 years.
In 40 years of owning stores, with just one exception, that store owner never had an employee quit unless it was to move out of town, enter a non-retail workspace, open their own store, or go back to school. Four of his employees opened their own record stores.
Of the many people I've known who worked for him over the years, every one of them says it's the best job they ever had.
When I was 44 I left Vortex and I opened my own record store and had the same rules for my staff. I paid 60% above minimum wage with a $2/hr raise every year. I only had one employee but she worked for me from the day I opened till the day I closed.
*When I was 48 I had a small stroke and sold my inventory to a competitor and entered what I call "semi retirement."
Contrast that to every other one of my (Vortex and my own store's) competition: they all pay minimum wage with shift hours you don't choose. One of my competitors has the nerve to pay some of their wages in product -- by the store's choice, not the staffs'.
When asked how we did all this while offering the same prices as our competitors, the answer is dead simple: as an owner, I just took a little less home than I otherwise would. That's it. That's the secret.
It really is not that hard to pay a living wage and if you can't do it, you are a terrible business person and should accept that your desire to own a business doesn't trump other people's right to a good life.
posted by dobbs at 7:10 PM on May 17, 2021 [130 favorites]
Something I haven't seen mentioned at all in this discussion is how hard it can be to transition from a tipped, walk out at the end of the night with cash in hand, position to a salaried paycheck position. Especially when a lot of jobs are two weeks behind the pay period with checks. Saving up enough to go from work, walk out with cash, to 4 weeks later getting a paycheck is very hard. The pandemic has forced the servers I know out of the industry which led them to a totally different relationship with paydays / budgeting / cash flow and they don't want to go back even if they're making slightly less money.
posted by Uncle at 7:16 PM on May 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Uncle at 7:16 PM on May 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
business owners are deeply mistaken about the effects of unemployment stimulus: a U of Chicago working paper shows that most of the effect has been on DEMAND, boosting spending by between 2.4 and 2.6 percent, with only with only roughly a .02 percent effect on the unemployment rate
They can be simultaneously correct about its direct effect on their employees and not able to see the overall macroeconomic impact.
Note the unemployment rate change estimate is .2 to .4% (not 0.02%). Also all numbers are in aggregate, so a sector like restaurants might be disproportionately suffering from the downsides and/or not getting the benefits in their industry.
posted by mark k at 7:24 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
They can be simultaneously correct about its direct effect on their employees and not able to see the overall macroeconomic impact.
Note the unemployment rate change estimate is .2 to .4% (not 0.02%). Also all numbers are in aggregate, so a sector like restaurants might be disproportionately suffering from the downsides and/or not getting the benefits in their industry.
posted by mark k at 7:24 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Free market for me, not for thee.
posted by jwest at 8:07 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by jwest at 8:07 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Seems to me the simple way to transition off is make it so you get the remaining special COVID-19 unemployment benefit as a lump sum + x% bonus, if you get a job.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:07 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:07 PM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Middle-Class Pay Lost Pace. Is Washington to Blame? - "One of the most urgent questions in economics is why pay for middle-income workers has increased only slightly since the 1970s, even as pay for those near the top has escalated."
posted by kliuless at 9:41 PM on May 17, 2021 [15 favorites]
“Intentional policy decisions (either of commission or omission) have generated wage suppression,” they write. Included among these decisions are policymakers’ willingness to tolerate high unemployment and to let employers fight unions aggressively; trade deals that force workers to compete with low-paid labor abroad; and the tacit or explicit blessing of new legal arrangements, like employment contracts that make it harder for workers to seek new jobs. Together, Dr. Mishel and Dr. Bivens argue, these developments deprived workers of bargaining power, which kept their wages low.Identifying the policy levers generating wage suppression and wage inequality[1]
Inequalities abound in the U.S. economy, and a central driver in recent decades is the widening gap between the hourly compensation of a typical (median) worker and productivity—the income generated per hour of work. This growing divergence has been driven by two other widening gaps, that between the compensation received by the vast majority of workers and those at the top, and that between labor’s share of income and capital’s. This paper presents evidence that the divorce between the growth of median compensation and productivity, the inequality of compensation, and the erosion of labor’s share of income has been generated primarily through intentional policy decisions designed to suppress typical workers’ wage growth, the failure to improve and update existing policies, and the failure to thwart new corporate practices and structures aimed at wage suppression. Inequality will stop rising, and paychecks for typical workers will start rising robustly in line with productivity, only when we enforce labor standards and embrace policies that reestablish individual and collective bargaining power for workers...New monthly child tax credit payments will start July 15. What you need to know - "The credit will go to roughly 39 million households with about 65 million children, or 88% of children in the U.S., according to the IRS. The expanded credit was established in the American Rescue Plan signed into law in March. In 2021, the maximum enhanced child tax credit is $3,600 for children younger than age 6 and $3,000 for those between 6 and 17."
This paper offers a narrative and supporting evidence on the mechanisms that have suppressed wage growth since the late 1970s. We refer in this analysis to wage suppression rather than wage stagnation because it was an actively sought outcome—engineered by policymakers who invited and enabled capital owners and business managers to assault the leverage and bargaining power of typical workers, with the inevitable result that those at the top claim a larger share of income. These policy changes and the change in business practices they enabled have systematically undercut individual workers’ market (exit and voice)[2] options and the ability of workers to obtain higher pay, job security, and better-quality jobs. These corporate and policy decisions had the most adverse consequences for low- and middle-wage workers, who are disproportionately women and minorities, the groups whose legacy of being discriminated against in labor markets means that they especially need low unemployment, unions, strong labor standards, and policy supports for leverage when bargaining with employers.
posted by kliuless at 9:41 PM on May 17, 2021 [15 favorites]
Better pay isn't the whole story: it's better pay AND better CONDITIONS.
It's always frustrated me that when the teacher's are negotiating their next workplace agreement the news coverage is a lazy "teachers demand more $$"
Conditions matter too!
posted by freethefeet at 10:22 PM on May 17, 2021 [15 favorites]
It's always frustrated me that when the teacher's are negotiating their next workplace agreement the news coverage is a lazy "teachers demand more $$"
Conditions matter too!
posted by freethefeet at 10:22 PM on May 17, 2021 [15 favorites]
a sector like restaurants might be disproportionately suffering from the downsides and/or not getting the benefits in their industry.
I would be more inclined to believe this was an issue for restaurants if they weren't simultaneously complaining about being slammed with delivery orders. Yeah, that sucks relative to dine in or even takeout for the tipped staff, but it's always the owners I see getting their complaints printed in the newspaper.
posted by wierdo at 4:36 AM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would be more inclined to believe this was an issue for restaurants if they weren't simultaneously complaining about being slammed with delivery orders. Yeah, that sucks relative to dine in or even takeout for the tipped staff, but it's always the owners I see getting their complaints printed in the newspaper.
posted by wierdo at 4:36 AM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
As somebody said on Twitter, “nobody wants to work” is the business equivalent of “nobody wants to date a nice guy"
Waiting for the stories about drunk managers at 2am sending unsolicited paycheck pics to former employees to remind them of what they're missing.
posted by ananci at 5:31 AM on May 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
Waiting for the stories about drunk managers at 2am sending unsolicited paycheck pics to former employees to remind them of what they're missing.
posted by ananci at 5:31 AM on May 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
I would be more inclined to believe this was an issue for restaurants if they weren't simultaneously complaining about being slammed with delivery orders. Yeah, that sucks relative to dine in or even takeout for the tipped staff, but it's always the owners I see getting their complaints printed in the newspaper.
It sucks for the owners, too. Uber and DoorDash take a huge cut. Fewer sales of alcohol and dessert and fountain soda which are higher margin items for owners. Packaging is expensive relative to dishwashing.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:49 AM on May 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
It sucks for the owners, too. Uber and DoorDash take a huge cut. Fewer sales of alcohol and dessert and fountain soda which are higher margin items for owners. Packaging is expensive relative to dishwashing.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:49 AM on May 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
There's no labor shortage [SLTT]
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 6:40 AM on May 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 6:40 AM on May 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Uber and DoorDash take a huge cut. Fewer sales of alcohol and dessert and fountain soda which are higher margin items for owners. Packaging is expensive relative to dishwashing.
That is an entirely separate issue from the volume of business being done. And at least in my area, the menu price on an app is 15-20% higher than the normal menu price (and they can deliver alcohol), so the owners aren't getting totally murdered, even if it is suboptimal. We're still in the midst of a pandemic, so merely suboptimal is actually pretty fucking good.
Also, again speaking only for where I live, but people who already own restaurants seem to feel like it's a good idea to keep opening more. It honestly seems a bit bizarre to me given the complaints they have about everything restaurant right now, but what the hell do I know.
posted by wierdo at 7:03 AM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
That is an entirely separate issue from the volume of business being done. And at least in my area, the menu price on an app is 15-20% higher than the normal menu price (and they can deliver alcohol), so the owners aren't getting totally murdered, even if it is suboptimal. We're still in the midst of a pandemic, so merely suboptimal is actually pretty fucking good.
Also, again speaking only for where I live, but people who already own restaurants seem to feel like it's a good idea to keep opening more. It honestly seems a bit bizarre to me given the complaints they have about everything restaurant right now, but what the hell do I know.
posted by wierdo at 7:03 AM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
Waiting for the stories about drunk managers at 2am sending unsolicited paycheck pics to former employees to remind them of what they're missing.
I have literally seen someone do that, but with stacks of cash.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have literally seen someone do that, but with stacks of cash.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm starting to think "if you raise minimum wage, we'll just lay off some employees and replace others with robots" was an idle threat, since no restaurants seem to be solving their labor shortage by eliminating positions and bringing in the bloop blorp boxes.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:30 AM on May 18, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:30 AM on May 18, 2021 [20 favorites]
Related: How a New York City Restaurant Loses Money on a $14 Sandwich
"Labor Costs: $7
Since relocating in 2015, Dirt Candy has been one of the handful of full-service American restaurants to operate without tipping. Paying employees a livable wage, rather than allowing their earnings to be subsidized by tips, is expensive. Comparable restaurants typically operate at around 30 percent labor cost. Dirt Candy runs closer to 50 percent. Because of that, workers’ wages account for half of what customers spend on the dish."
They will soon be returning to their traditional tasting menu format.
"When Cohen reopens the restaurant for indoor dining on May 20, she is raising prices to better compensate the staff she feels she failed this past year. This is a clear step forward on an issue long discussed among restaurateurs, who have argued that to pay everyone well, menu prices have to jump to a level that may scare off customers. Cohen has calculated that increase at an additional $30 for the tasting menu. She’ll be one of the first American restaurant owners to find out if diners are willing to pay the true value of a meal for which workers are fairly compensated."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:37 AM on May 18, 2021
"Labor Costs: $7
Since relocating in 2015, Dirt Candy has been one of the handful of full-service American restaurants to operate without tipping. Paying employees a livable wage, rather than allowing their earnings to be subsidized by tips, is expensive. Comparable restaurants typically operate at around 30 percent labor cost. Dirt Candy runs closer to 50 percent. Because of that, workers’ wages account for half of what customers spend on the dish."
They will soon be returning to their traditional tasting menu format.
"When Cohen reopens the restaurant for indoor dining on May 20, she is raising prices to better compensate the staff she feels she failed this past year. This is a clear step forward on an issue long discussed among restaurateurs, who have argued that to pay everyone well, menu prices have to jump to a level that may scare off customers. Cohen has calculated that increase at an additional $30 for the tasting menu. She’ll be one of the first American restaurant owners to find out if diners are willing to pay the true value of a meal for which workers are fairly compensated."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:37 AM on May 18, 2021
I'm starting to think "if you raise minimum wage, we'll just lay off some employees and replace others with robots" was an idle threat, since no restaurants seem to be solving their labor shortage by eliminating positions and bringing in the bloop blorp boxes.
It wasn't entirely an idle threat: a lot of jobs that were lost during the pandemic were automated and aren't coming back. The problem is that with fast food, the cost of real automation - robot line cooks, robot janitors, et cetera - is too high for them to really be able to do it. You can automate cashiering easily enough, but that already happened. Somebody has to make the burgers and robots can't do it.
posted by mightygodking at 10:55 AM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
It wasn't entirely an idle threat: a lot of jobs that were lost during the pandemic were automated and aren't coming back. The problem is that with fast food, the cost of real automation - robot line cooks, robot janitors, et cetera - is too high for them to really be able to do it. You can automate cashiering easily enough, but that already happened. Somebody has to make the burgers and robots can't do it.
posted by mightygodking at 10:55 AM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
That robot they had on Superstore was not a very effective employee.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:06 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:06 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
We are absolutely seeing increased automation, partly as a drive to reduce contact between servers and customers (or physical contact of other sorts) at restaurants. You've probably seen lots of restaurants replace their menus with QR codes. Bringing a paper menu to your table is one less thing for a server to do. Admittedly a trivial thing.
I have a friend who just opened a bar with a small food menu. They take this a step farther: there's a unique QR code at each table, which leads you to an ordering website. It's very much like ordering with Toasttab. Also makes it impossible to skip out on your bill.
I was at the airport a few days ago and saw at least one of the restaurants there had a huge touchscreen at the front where you placed your order. This reminded me a bit of a practice I saw many years ago in Japan at some restaurants, where you'd buy a paper ticket indicating your order at the front door, and hand that to the server or counter staff.
posted by adamrice at 12:34 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have a friend who just opened a bar with a small food menu. They take this a step farther: there's a unique QR code at each table, which leads you to an ordering website. It's very much like ordering with Toasttab. Also makes it impossible to skip out on your bill.
I was at the airport a few days ago and saw at least one of the restaurants there had a huge touchscreen at the front where you placed your order. This reminded me a bit of a practice I saw many years ago in Japan at some restaurants, where you'd buy a paper ticket indicating your order at the front door, and hand that to the server or counter staff.
posted by adamrice at 12:34 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I’ve read Cohen & Dunlavey’s Dirt Candy manga/Künstlerroman/cookbook and am not surprised they are launching themselves into another admirable and risky enterprise.
posted by clew at 12:54 PM on May 18, 2021
posted by clew at 12:54 PM on May 18, 2021
The pike-industrial complex is also failing. They can't afford to hire anyone to manufacture, deploy and clean the pikes.
Kids these days - no pike ethic at all.
posted by nickmark at 1:01 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Kids these days - no pike ethic at all.
posted by nickmark at 1:01 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was at the airport a few days ago and saw at least one of the restaurants there had a huge touchscreen at the front where you placed your order.
Burger King in Dublin airport?
posted by soelo at 1:07 PM on May 18, 2021
Burger King in Dublin airport?
posted by soelo at 1:07 PM on May 18, 2021
We are absolutely seeing increased automation, partly as a drive to reduce contact between servers and customers (or physical contact of other sorts) at restaurants.
Yes, I think another example might be ghost kitchens. I've noticed when searching my area on Yelp that maybe about 1/3 of the new restaurants opening up are ghost kitchens where you can only order online. An interesting side effect is some of these are focusing more on niche or regional foods, like I know one that does Northeastern Chinese cuisine.
posted by FJT at 1:24 PM on May 18, 2021
Yes, I think another example might be ghost kitchens. I've noticed when searching my area on Yelp that maybe about 1/3 of the new restaurants opening up are ghost kitchens where you can only order online. An interesting side effect is some of these are focusing more on niche or regional foods, like I know one that does Northeastern Chinese cuisine.
posted by FJT at 1:24 PM on May 18, 2021
More from AP on people seeking better jobs than their previous work:
Changed by pandemic, many workers won’t return to old jobs
posted by bystander at 1:24 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Changed by pandemic, many workers won’t return to old jobs
posted by bystander at 1:24 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
You'll note that one thing missing from these discussions is executive pay and corporate profit.
It's easy to pay people more and **NOT** have prices go up. You simply have to force the owners to stop extracting so much money.
Remember, from the end of WWII until the mid 1970's as GDP grew income across all quintiles went up by about the same as GDP growth.
So if GDP went up by 9% then the poorest 20% got about 9% more money, the lower 20% got about 9% more money, the middle 20% got about 9% more money, the upper middle got about 9% more, and the upper 20% also got about 9% more.
A rising tide really did lift all boats [1]
But in the mid 1970's that changed. GDP growth stopped resulting in wage growth. Instead the very richest people took 100% of GDP growth for themselves and left us with stagnating wages.
In consistent dollars wages have either been the same, or actually declined, since then.
So there's the answer to the question of how you give workers higher wages without increasing costs. You force Jeff Bezos and his ilk to disgorge some of the money they've been hoarding.
[1] With women and Black people lagging of course...
posted by sotonohito at 1:46 PM on May 18, 2021 [15 favorites]
It's easy to pay people more and **NOT** have prices go up. You simply have to force the owners to stop extracting so much money.
Remember, from the end of WWII until the mid 1970's as GDP grew income across all quintiles went up by about the same as GDP growth.
So if GDP went up by 9% then the poorest 20% got about 9% more money, the lower 20% got about 9% more money, the middle 20% got about 9% more money, the upper middle got about 9% more, and the upper 20% also got about 9% more.
A rising tide really did lift all boats [1]
But in the mid 1970's that changed. GDP growth stopped resulting in wage growth. Instead the very richest people took 100% of GDP growth for themselves and left us with stagnating wages.
In consistent dollars wages have either been the same, or actually declined, since then.
So there's the answer to the question of how you give workers higher wages without increasing costs. You force Jeff Bezos and his ilk to disgorge some of the money they've been hoarding.
[1] With women and Black people lagging of course...
posted by sotonohito at 1:46 PM on May 18, 2021 [15 favorites]
I was at the airport a few days ago and saw at least one of the restaurants there had a huge touchscreen at the front where you placed your order.
All McDonald's near me in Ottawa had this option but they went away again with covid
posted by jacquilynne at 2:27 PM on May 18, 2021
All McDonald's near me in Ottawa had this option but they went away again with covid
posted by jacquilynne at 2:27 PM on May 18, 2021
soelo: "Burger King in Dublin airport?"
No, it was at Austin TX's airport, a local [1] taco joint IIRC.
[1] The city of Austin is very stuck on preserving its local culture. As far as I know, none of the shops at the airport are actually operated by the iconic local establishments whose names are in front, instead, they license their names to the same faceless concessionaires that operate businesses at lots of other airports, an arrangement that was mandated by the city council when the airport opened. I suspect I've seen the same sort of thing at other airports.
posted by adamrice at 2:37 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
No, it was at Austin TX's airport, a local [1] taco joint IIRC.
[1] The city of Austin is very stuck on preserving its local culture. As far as I know, none of the shops at the airport are actually operated by the iconic local establishments whose names are in front, instead, they license their names to the same faceless concessionaires that operate businesses at lots of other airports, an arrangement that was mandated by the city council when the airport opened. I suspect I've seen the same sort of thing at other airports.
posted by adamrice at 2:37 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
A bit of a derail, but ... speaking of automation, when I was a kid many decades ago there was a restaurant on the Square in Madison, Wisconsin, that had telephone handsets at each booth. You would look at the menu which (I may be making this up) was like a jukebox (??) and then pick up the handset to order. And it was supposed to be so modern and cool. They had extremely average burgers.
posted by zenzenobia at 3:48 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by zenzenobia at 3:48 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Heck, there's McDonald's with touchscreen ordering in Post TX, population 5,193. I thought they were everywhere if they were there.
posted by sotonohito at 5:36 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sotonohito at 5:36 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
When I was a kid, we would go to this restaurant called Round the Corner, which had telephones at every table that you would use to order. I thought it was really cool!
I can't remember if they called you back on the phone to tell you your order was ready so that you could pick it up at the counter. I have vague memories of a red light on the phone box, so maybe that was used instead of ringing, which would get annoying in a restaurant as you can imagine.
This was in Denver, Colorado around the late 70s - early 80s.
posted by cats are weird at 5:41 PM on May 18, 2021
I can't remember if they called you back on the phone to tell you your order was ready so that you could pick it up at the counter. I have vague memories of a red light on the phone box, so maybe that was used instead of ringing, which would get annoying in a restaurant as you can imagine.
This was in Denver, Colorado around the late 70s - early 80s.
posted by cats are weird at 5:41 PM on May 18, 2021
No, unfortunately we can't afford health insurance for employees, but our state's health care program is really good.
can't be that good, can it, or you'd be paying an additional amount equal to the best plan's premiums as additional compensation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:06 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
can't be that good, can it, or you'd be paying an additional amount equal to the best plan's premiums as additional compensation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:06 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
His best people get north of $30/hr USD (and lots of hours).
Do they also get health insurance? You surely know that $30/hr is nothing to write home about if they have to pay their own insurance premiums out of their wages.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:13 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
bringing in the bloop blorp boxes.
We are rolling out order and pay on the app on your phone on our bowling lanes right now, might do it for all indoor dining, with 100 or so inside seats and 76 outside we just don't have the staff. We do use toast.
Thing is, those people on the lanes using their phones will have questions, allergies, just won't want to use the tech. Happened tonight. The tech can almost, but not entirely, replace that human touch, that ability to read the table and exceed their usually basic expectation.
Hired a couple people and there is drama already. Tomorrow night we are shorthanded so I get to be in charge of curbside, and the dining room- I'm shutting down outdoor as it will be a bit cooler and I can't watch both spaces and put 100 orders in cars at the same time.
Gonna be a bonkers summer.
posted by vrakatar at 11:37 PM on May 18, 2021
We are rolling out order and pay on the app on your phone on our bowling lanes right now, might do it for all indoor dining, with 100 or so inside seats and 76 outside we just don't have the staff. We do use toast.
Thing is, those people on the lanes using their phones will have questions, allergies, just won't want to use the tech. Happened tonight. The tech can almost, but not entirely, replace that human touch, that ability to read the table and exceed their usually basic expectation.
Hired a couple people and there is drama already. Tomorrow night we are shorthanded so I get to be in charge of curbside, and the dining room- I'm shutting down outdoor as it will be a bit cooler and I can't watch both spaces and put 100 orders in cars at the same time.
Gonna be a bonkers summer.
posted by vrakatar at 11:37 PM on May 18, 2021
I have vague memories of a red light on the phone box, so maybe that was used instead of ringing, which would get annoying in a restaurant as you can imagine.
I once went to a jazz club in Melbourne where they had little electric candle lights on all the tables. The club's main lights went down as soon as the band came on, and from that point on anyone needing to call a waitress over did so by gently clicking on their table's candle light. Everything in the charming-but-firm waitresses' behaviour encouraged people to keep noise to a minimum too.
Being able to listen to the music without all the usual mood-wrecking racket from the room made a welcome change from most of the other jazz clubs I've visited. Great band too.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:47 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
I once went to a jazz club in Melbourne where they had little electric candle lights on all the tables. The club's main lights went down as soon as the band came on, and from that point on anyone needing to call a waitress over did so by gently clicking on their table's candle light. Everything in the charming-but-firm waitresses' behaviour encouraged people to keep noise to a minimum too.
Being able to listen to the music without all the usual mood-wrecking racket from the room made a welcome change from most of the other jazz clubs I've visited. Great band too.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:47 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Somebody has to make the burgers and robots can't do it.
Or, well, aRube Goldberg machine robot could do it but it requires significantly more capital investment than just hiring a minimum wage cook.
posted by Pyry at 6:33 AM on May 19, 2021
Or, well, a
posted by Pyry at 6:33 AM on May 19, 2021
- robot line cooks, robot janitors, et cetera - is too high for them to really be able to do it.
I can only imagine a red and yellow clown manager robot surrounded by robo-cops guarding the burger flipping robots.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 7:10 AM on May 19, 2021
I can only imagine a red and yellow clown manager robot surrounded by robo-cops guarding the burger flipping robots.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 7:10 AM on May 19, 2021
Well, lookie here - some fast food franchises are starting to raise their wages to attract new workers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:31 AM on May 19, 2021
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:31 AM on May 19, 2021
McDonald's is lying about that. It's only for less than 5% of their stores.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:46 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:46 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Lauren Kaori Gurley in Vice: ”McDonald's Workers Will Strike for $15 an Hour in 15 Cities”
posted by Going To Maine at 8:07 AM on May 19, 2021
posted by Going To Maine at 8:07 AM on May 19, 2021
Thing is, those people on the lanes using their phones will have questions, allergies, just won't want to use the tech.
Our go-to local place has us order via phones, but with staff that circulate and check in throughout your time there. They'll also put in orders if you have something specific that needs to be addressed (or don't have a phone). It's a patio that, with distanced tables, is pretty easy to grab someone's attention when they are doing a walk through. As a customer, it seems like a nice balance that works well, at least at this particular place. I can imagine it'd be a bit trickier at higher volumes.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:28 AM on May 19, 2021
Our go-to local place has us order via phones, but with staff that circulate and check in throughout your time there. They'll also put in orders if you have something specific that needs to be addressed (or don't have a phone). It's a patio that, with distanced tables, is pretty easy to grab someone's attention when they are doing a walk through. As a customer, it seems like a nice balance that works well, at least at this particular place. I can imagine it'd be a bit trickier at higher volumes.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:28 AM on May 19, 2021
How did the strike go in your city? Any news on the ground?
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:26 AM on May 20, 2021
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:26 AM on May 20, 2021
I think the Nobody Wants To Work meme is being amplified by the same corporate/ GOP groups that fight fair(minimum wage) pay, and fuck that.
posted by theora55 at 11:37 AM on May 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:37 AM on May 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
WE ARE CLOSED
NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE
THEY HAVE HEARD THE LOW THRUM THAT COMES FROM THE FOREST'S CENTER
THEY RUN TOWARDS IT NOW, READY TO SHOW IT THEIR ENTIRE ASS
-- NOT A WOLF@SICKOFWOLVES [aka Dan Sheehan], May 14 tweet
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:42 AM on May 20, 2021
NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE
THEY HAVE HEARD THE LOW THRUM THAT COMES FROM THE FOREST'S CENTER
THEY RUN TOWARDS IT NOW, READY TO SHOW IT THEIR ENTIRE ASS
-- NOT A WOLF@SICKOFWOLVES [aka Dan Sheehan], May 14 tweet
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:42 AM on May 20, 2021
I'm sure at least some owners are closing because raising wages would in fact result in losses.
If your business is that shaky, it's really not okay to expect your employees to prop it up. (or the government, via food stamps and pother assistance. I'm all for assistance programs, but workers should be paid enough not to need them.)
I have owned a small business with employees. I paid slightly more than other retail businesses, gave paid time off, good schedules. jacquilynne is right that it works better if *everybody* has to pay more; the playing field is a bit level. Even so, try not to be an asshole.
posted by theora55 at 11:51 AM on May 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
If your business is that shaky, it's really not okay to expect your employees to prop it up. (or the government, via food stamps and pother assistance. I'm all for assistance programs, but workers should be paid enough not to need them.)
I have owned a small business with employees. I paid slightly more than other retail businesses, gave paid time off, good schedules. jacquilynne is right that it works better if *everybody* has to pay more; the playing field is a bit level. Even so, try not to be an asshole.
posted by theora55 at 11:51 AM on May 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Note the unemployment rate change estimate is .2 to .4% (not 0.02%). Also all numbers are in aggregate, so a sector like restaurants might be disproportionately suffering from the downsides and/or not getting the benefits in their industry."
No, from the article: "Jointly, these spending and job finding facts suggest that benefit expansions during the pandemic were a more effective policy than predicted by standard structural models. Abstracting from general equilibrium effects, we find that overall spending was 2.0-2.6 percent higher and employment only 0.2-0.4 percent lower as a result of the benefit expansions."
posted by klangklangston at 4:55 PM on May 30, 2021
No, from the article: "Jointly, these spending and job finding facts suggest that benefit expansions during the pandemic were a more effective policy than predicted by standard structural models. Abstracting from general equilibrium effects, we find that overall spending was 2.0-2.6 percent higher and employment only 0.2-0.4 percent lower as a result of the benefit expansions."
posted by klangklangston at 4:55 PM on May 30, 2021
« Older Karoshi | A body without a plan Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:19 AM on May 17, 2021 [63 favorites]