AIDS denialism in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
May 18, 2021 12:52 PM   Subscribe

The Foo Fighters once embraced the cult of HIV/AIDS denial, enthusiastically spreading a potentially lethal message to their young fans. And they seem to have never apologized or admitted their mistake. In an open letter to bassist Nate Mendel, Bruce Mirken says "You can’t undo the damage you did, but you can at least say you’re sorry you did it."
posted by The Ardship of Cambry (54 comments total) 27 users marked this as a favorite
 
Wow.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:28 PM on May 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


anyone else feel like throwing something.
posted by clavdivs at 1:35 PM on May 18, 2021 [8 favorites]


We actually attempted a dialogue once, and I had lunch in San Francisco with her and her husband Robin, who was as deeply into AIDS denial as she was. Aside from having to suppress the urge to call Child Protective Services as this HIV-positive woman breast-fed her baby, what sticks most in my mind from that encounter was Robin casually referencing what he termed conventional medicine’s “HIV = AIDS = death paradigm.”

This is the same person Farhad Manjoo wrote about in the first chapter of True Enough. If this is indeed the same baby, she died from AIDS in 2003.
posted by dr_dank at 1:45 PM on May 18, 2021 [9 favorites]


Jeez, that's an UGLY look, Foo Fighters.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:52 PM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Eliza Jane Scovill, Christine Maggiore's daughter, died in 2005 when she was three and a half years old; Maggiore died in 2008. [The family's pediatrician was Paul M. Fleiss, Heidi's dad & money-launderer (pled guilty to charges of conspiracy and bank fraud in 1995): In 2005, Fleiss was investigated for his role in the death, from untreated AIDS, of Eliza Jane Scovill, the daughter of AIDS denialist Christine Maggiore, who was HIV-positive. Against standard medical practice, Scovill was never tested for HIV, and Fleiss was investigated by the Medical Board of California for gross negligence in her care as well as in the care of a second child who was also HIV-positive. After receiving over 100 letters of support for Fleiss from patients and parents, the medical board reached a settlement in which Fleiss conceded a failure to maintain adequate medical records and agreed to regular review by an outside physician acting as a monitor.]
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:59 PM on May 18, 2021 [21 favorites]


I did not know this.
posted by feckless at 2:00 PM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


I had no idea of any of this either. FFS, I'm not sure I was aware until today that AIDS denialism was actually a thing, but I suppose....gestures at the 12 months....I ought not be surprised.
posted by jquinby at 2:02 PM on May 18, 2021 [24 favorites]


Foo Fighters have a history of another ugly, scientifically-illiterate stance, btw: Foo Fighters drummer Taylor Hawkins’ Chevy Metal Plays Intimate Autism Benefit In L.A. (Rolling Stone, September 23, 2013) The benefit was for the anti-vaxx groups Age of Autism and Generation Rescue.

Dave Grohl, frontman for the multiple Grammy award-winning band Foo Fighters – and who headlined the Autism Speaks "Blue Jean Ball" in 2013 – returns to headline the organization's "Into the Blue" gala on October 4, 2018 (PRNewswire, Sep 27, 2018); Wiki entry: "Autism Speaks has been the focus of controversy; over 60 disability rights organizations have condemned the organization for failing to represent autistic people, and for exploitative practices." The organization was anti-vaxx until this 2017 change to its "What Causes Autism" info page.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:06 PM on May 18, 2021 [33 favorites]


This article isn't very well written, and it took some other googling for me to understand everything. Holy cow. I had no idea that there were even people out there who thought that AIDS and HIV were non-related, let alone that they felt so strongly about this they formed a non profit to dissuade other people from believing it. To what end? What does it help? What do they get out of it?

Celebrities are a mistake. A huge, huge mistake.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:08 PM on May 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


Foo Fighters have a history of another ugly, scientifically-illiterate stance, btw

Apparently Foo Fighters attracts anti-science types like this regularly? As soon as I read this post I messaged a friend who is involved in DIY music, he said he was at one point facebook friends with a former FF musician, but cut ties when they posted a bunch of "plandemic" shit last year.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:21 PM on May 18, 2021 [11 favorites]


Oh hey speaking of AIDS denialism, does anyone else remember when Harper's Magazine published that article by Celia Farber in 2006? I thought for years that I had imagined that, because surely...? But the internet remembers.
posted by zeptoweasel at 2:25 PM on May 18, 2021 [5 favorites]


Why on earth anyone looks to bands for pronouncements on religion, economics, politics.... virology, here, is beyond me. I wouldn't expect much from them but tips on how to make the chorus sound bigger and the best way to sleep on a tour bus. I hate to say it, but this is The Beatles' fault. Of all the idiotic Boomer notions, the one that zombies on strongest of all is the idea that "youth culture" has a special connection to the truth and to the real meat on the bones of life, and that people who operate guitars and drums are somehow its oracles.
posted by thelonius at 2:29 PM on May 18, 2021 [26 favorites]


I had no idea that there were even people out there who thought that AIDS and HIV were non-related

'80s proto-alternative bible SPIN was pretty deep into this territory, thanks in particular to the writing of Celia Farber ... which may provide some kind of context for people like the Foos, who would've been (like me) SPIN-reading teenagers at the time this stuff was being published. SPIN was a hugely important lifeline to young folks like me who had few other ways (except, like, 120 Minutes) to learn about underground culture from aboveground media, and when they wrote about things, it mattered. (I distinctly remember it was where I first learned about Burning Man as well, around the same time Farber's stuff was being published.)

Of course, I soon acquired a more rock-solid understanding of the epidemiology behind HIV/AIDS ... but I was a young man having sex with men in the shadow of a disappearing generation, so it felt like an existential imperative to learn this stuff. Whereas experience taught me that straight dudes of my generation (not dissimilar to the pinheads in Foo Fighters) didn't think much at all about HIV/AIDS, so if they passively read something once in SPIN, it could've easily calcified into an unexamined truth. Sadly, yes, some of those pinheads got famous.
posted by mykescipark at 2:31 PM on May 18, 2021 [31 favorites]


In the related threads below is a post on Christine Maggiore's death; the comments include a lot of back and forth with an AIDS skeptic finally ending (as far as I can tell) with this well-written rebuttal by an oncologist (and former virologist).
posted by jquinby at 2:31 PM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


....and I see zeptoweasel beat me to it.
posted by mykescipark at 2:31 PM on May 18, 2021


'80s proto-alternative bible SPIN was pretty deep into this territory

Yes it was, I remember this. Cover story with Dr. Gallo once, iirc.
posted by thelonius at 2:35 PM on May 18, 2021


In the related threads below is a post on Christine Maggiore's death;

And because time is a flat circle, there are people in the 2009 thread who are shocked to find out about the Foo Fighters connection.
posted by zeptoweasel at 2:51 PM on May 18, 2021 [13 favorites]


this is The Beatles' fault. Of all the idiotic Boomer notions, the one that zombies on strongest of all is the idea that "youth culture" has a special connection to the truth and to the real meat on the bones of life

I'd suggest its origins have rather more to do with Johnson and Nixon than Lennon, and its survival more to do with Madison Avenue than Abbey Road. The idea of the importance of youth culture as a political force didn't spring unbidden from a bed in an Amsterdam hotel room, but from a real and violent opposition of cultural and political forces in the late 60s and early 70s. It has been co-opted and sustained not by mere nostalgia, but by an advertising industry which recognises that the combination of youthful sex appeal and notional rebellious integrity is a profoundly effect marketing tool. Blame the Beatles? You might as well blame Acker Bilk.
posted by howfar at 3:00 PM on May 18, 2021 [33 favorites]


My partner seroconverted in the early 2000's in San Francisco. We were of course terrified and consumed everything we could, from official recommendations to wackos like Christine Maggiore.

One bit of context that I feel may be lacking here is that the very early HIV medications were very, very hard on the body and their side effects were often dramatic and extremely unpleasant. Worse, many people developed tolerance to the earlier medications. Both of things were had gotten better by the time he seroconverted but we still had that fear of the side effects and building tolerance lingering over us. An older gay friend -- who had lost many friends to AIDS -- strongly advised us to stay off the meds as long as possible while pursuing the kinds of remedies recommended by the denialists because of both the tolerance issue and the long-term damage the meds might do.

From a medical perspective, his advice might have been somewhat sound, at least from what I remember learning back then. But just about the same time we finally relented and my partner went on meds due to a dangerously plummeting T-cell count, the medical advice changed to "hit early and hard". Newer classes of meds weren't wreaking the havoc of the earlier ones and, as far as I'm aware, the tolerance problem was a lot less pronounced with them.

Finally, keep in mind that there was a deep distrust of medical-government establishment lingering from the Reagan administrations ghoulish and outright refusal to act because AIDS was the "gay cancer" and by God, those homos were finally getting what was coming to them.

So it was a heady mix to be at-risk or HIV positive back then, full of confusion and hope and suspicion and fear. I experienced first-hand the temporary relief of the thought that "well, maybe HIV DOESN'T cause AIDS -- maybe this really IS a lie designed to line the pockets of big pharma...". I can see how people got caught up in it and how and why those ideas spread.

But the ones who hardcore dug in and really peddled this shit? Those who are still around should know that they undoubtedly have blood on their hands, even if they meant well at the time. I don't know much about the Foo Fighters other than that a lot of people adore them and they seem to have an usually wholesome reputation for a band emerging from the grunge scene. Assuming this article is accurate, the fact that they don't seem at all bothered by this (and certainly didn't seem at all bothered to talk to any real experts at the time) is horrifying. A very public apology is the least they should offer and I'm glad someone who knew what they were up to back then is trying to call them out on it.
posted by treepour at 3:04 PM on May 18, 2021 [63 favorites]


I quit buying Spin after reading a Celia Farber article promoting urine therapy for AIDS sufferers -- To tell dying men to drink their own piss was just too much. The Anti-HIV guru was Dr. Peter Duesberg, who claimed that drugs and dissolute living caused AIDs. (yes, he regarded homosexuality as a medical and moral problem). Later, when South Africa was dealing with AIDS problem, he claimed the disease was native African illnesses in combination.
Back to the article: Foo Fighters have been anti-vaxx, anti-HIV meds, and seem firmly in the grip of contrarian thought patterns. I have distrusted Contrarians ever since Hitchens came out in favor of Holy War. Contrarianism is basically look-at-me ego food and shock humor for the sake of lulz.
posted by CCBC at 3:10 PM on May 18, 2021 [20 favorites]


One tiny note on this post-for-which-I-am-grateful -- it's Bruce Mirken, not Merkin
posted by treepour at 3:15 PM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


does anyone else remember when

... Discover Magazine reviewed Farber's 2006 book ["Serious Adverse Events: An Uncensored History of AIDS," which built on the Harper's article] and made the editorial decision to title its Farber interview "Questioning The HIV Hive Mind?" Excerpts:

Discover Mag: Your writing is considered controversial. What kind of reaction did you get when you first started writing about this and how has it changed over the last 22 years?
Celia Farber: My work on this began in 1986. When I started researching AIDS, I was at SPIN magazine at the time as a research assistant. We eventually developed a monthly AIDS column called Words From the Front.

DM: [...] you don't believe that AZT extended lives?
CF: No.

DM: So do you believe that it's impossible to transmit the disease through sexual contact?
CF: I have lived in New York City for the last 20-some years, and I don't know anybody who has acquired HIV through sexual contact.

DM: Can you see why a person looking over all of the literature on this from the scientific community would question your point of view?
CF: No, because I've never made an argument. Everything I've ever put into print was brick by brick by brick by brick, things that happened, people died, scientists and doctors said X, Y, and Z.

DM: Some believe that perpetuating so-called AIDS dissident beliefs may be costing lives. Do you believe this could be true?
CF: I need to make a very important distinction right away, in order to answer that—it's a distinction of reportage, between what actually happens and what we impose upon what happens. That very core is composed entirely of transparency; that's where reporting begins.

DM:Do you have any regrets about your career?
CF: [Laughter] Not really. I complain a lot, but it's been a fascinating, amazing journey.

A two-decade-long career in faux-science writing, an influential monthly column filled with horseshit, the callousness ("things that happened, people died"), and finally chuckling over her amazing journey... and somehow the interviewer, Susan Kruglinski -- who prefaced one question with, "My uncle had AIDS in the early years" -- coolly allows Farber's answers damn her instead of opting for strangulation.

But yeah, Spin's articles and that regular column served the denialism theory to an audience of a certain age and inclination.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:17 PM on May 18, 2021 [19 favorites]


FirstMateKate: "Apparently Foo Fighters attracts anti-science types like this regularly? "

They aren't fighting the foo hard enough
posted by chavenet at 3:17 PM on May 18, 2021 [16 favorites]


the internet led me to this little gleeful gem of business reporting, where Robin Scovill, Christine Maggiore's husband, gets a lot of fun support from Detroit business types. AIDS denialism! Gentrification! And more!
posted by gorbichov at 3:20 PM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


this was just posted to r/foofighters

i imagine it will be deleted

would be a shame if this knowledge was widespread
posted by lalochezia at 3:28 PM on May 18, 2021 [13 favorites]


Their support of HIV-denialism is honestly the main thing I remember the Foo Fighters for. I also probably tracked the denialists more closely than most, having been targeted by them back in the day. AIDS denialists are in many ways the precursors to the anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers of today. Including their willingness to be violent to those they disagreed with. I do not miss them at all.

Bruce is a friend and I'm glad he wrote this, since there are clearly people who weren't aware of this part of the Foo Fighters history. I wouldn't mind so much if the Foo Fighters had ever clearly apologized and acknowledged they were wrong.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:38 PM on May 18, 2021 [22 favorites]




Today is the first day I felt really old because I realized some of my fellow informed, intelligent, and scientifically literate Metafilter members had never heard of AIDS denialism. My friends, it sucked. They had at least one Nobel laureate on their side.

The fact that this bullshit has been dumped irretrievably down the memory hole gives me some hope, at least.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:46 PM on May 18, 2021 [27 favorites]


it's Bruce Mirken, not Merkin

Well shoot. Hi any mods out there, could you please correct this? Sorry.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 5:26 PM on May 18, 2021


^Thanks to mr_roboto, TIL how Kary "Mullis wrote the foreword to the book What If Everything You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong? by Christine Maggiore," & that

"According to journalist Coby McDonald, Mullis' HIV skepticism influenced Thabo Mbeki's denialist policymaking throughout his tenure as president of South Africa from 1999 to 2008, contributing to as many as 330,000 unnecessary deaths." [McDonald's Intolerable Genius: Berkeley’s Most Controversial Nobel Laureate (2019) Kary Mullis revolutionized biology and pissed everyone off. Now that he’s dead, how should we remember him?]
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:27 PM on May 18, 2021 [6 favorites]


I guess its not like 20 years of silence speaks well for the dude, but i do wonder how much this reflects poorly on Dave Grohl and the rest of the band when it does seem, like the r/foofighter mod notes, that this was really one band member.

i saw the comment about DG's support of Autism Speaks which I understand to be problematic and of which valid critiques from autistic folks themselves should be listened heard, but i do think there is a lot of room between AS which a lot of people (problematically) support and AIDS denialism which was always harmful fringe.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 5:30 PM on May 18, 2021


Mod note: it's Bruce Mirken, not Merkin

Fixed!
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:46 PM on May 18, 2021


And because time is a flat circle

Aren't all circles flat?

Alright, Alright, Alright.
posted by thelonius at 5:48 PM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


Zeptoweasel, I remember the Harper's article well. I never read the magazine again, and I celebrated when Maggiore died.
posted by biggreenplant at 5:51 PM on May 18, 2021


I'm not sure I was aware until today that AIDS denialism was actually a thing, but I suppose....gestures at the 12 months....I ought not be surprised.

I saw an out-of-context clip of an interview with Kary Mullis- Nobel-prize winning inventor of PCR- going around being repurposed. The interview was from 2019; in it, he's saying that Dr Fauci doesn't know how PCR and virus detection works. This, of course, was being thrown around as evidence that Dr Fauci can't be trusted, look at this guy warning us, from 2019!

Kary Mullis was a long-time AIDS denialist, which is why he was specifically mad at Fauci. Different pandemic entirely.

But there he was, being resurrected on YouTube to promote COVID denialism.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:17 PM on May 18, 2021 [13 favorites]


This seems relevant.

‘Negative pressure isn’t keeping the Foo Fighters away. Media jabs are just that, jabs. "I’ve never seen anyone with more love, passion or dedication put into this issue," says Nate, talking to me the night before leaving on tour. "I have the utmost respect for Christine. She is doing a great thing."’

There’s also mention of another benefit concert that I cannot verify actually happened.

Dave looks stoked though.
posted by badbobbycase at 6:56 PM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]


but i do think there is a lot of room between AS which a lot of people (problematically) support and AIDS denialism which was always harmful fringe

Not so much... From google'ing around it looks like Autism Speaks has cleaned up their messaging on vaccines but they were not always that way. They were supporting "research" into the connection between vaccines and autism in 2009. The earliest unambiguous statement that I can find from AS stating that vaccines don't cause autism was in 2015. The Foo Fighters were doing fundraising concerts for Autism Speaks during the period when they were paying for the bogus research. Also, Taylor Hawkins, a member of the FF also supported anti vax groups . I don't care all that much about the Foo Fighters. I don't like people who try to rewrite history.

Wakefield published his paper linking vaccines to autism in 1998. The next year, 1999, there were studies refuting the paper. The paper was retracted by 2004. Anybody pushing the vaccine/autism link after that was a crank.

HIV was discovered in 1984. By say 1988 anybody disputing that HIV was the cause of AIDS was a crank. You can't erase the fact the Foo Fighters did a benefit concert for AIDS denialists in 2000.
posted by rdr at 7:03 PM on May 18, 2021 [22 favorites]


SPIN is exactly where I read articles about Peter Duesberg in the early 90's. I'm shocked to find out AIDS denialism was still happening as late as 2000...
posted by Hutch at 7:37 PM on May 18, 2021


but i do wonder how much this reflects poorly on Dave Grohl and the rest of the band

if they couldn't be arsed to look into it and just took the bass player's* word that these were legit organizations, their frickin' management or the legal department at their label or somebody should have done some basic research.

*Clearly the lesson is: Never trust a bass player. I'm looking at you, Murderface.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:39 PM on May 18, 2021 [4 favorites]


Plandemic

Ugh. Mikovits. Delusional, and nasty about it. Almost certainly a fraud too.

I mean, anybody who has become 'activist' pals with Kent Heckenlively, and co-authored a book with him, is to be avoided like, well, the plague.

********

FirstMateKate: "Apparently Foo Fighters attracts anti-science types like this regularly? "

They aren't fighting the foo hard enough
posted by chavenet


Woo-foo?
posted by Pouteria at 7:43 PM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


US AIDS deaths, which began dropping as soon as combination therapy arrived in 1996, continued to drop. And HIV-positive “AIDS dissidents” who refused those treatments started dying of AIDS complications—including Nate Mendel’s mentor, Christine Maggiore. Most went to their graves insisting that what was killing them couldn’t possibly be killing them.
Luckily we no longer live in a world where things like this happen.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:48 PM on May 18, 2021 [17 favorites]


Kary Mullis was a long-time AIDS denialist, which is why he was specifically mad at Fauci. Different pandemic entirely.

But there he was, being resurrected on YouTube to promote COVID denialism


Huh. That's utterly unsurprising, yet still quite disappointing, and simultaneously a useful bit of information to know the next time one of my local covid cranks brings up Mullis.
posted by eviemath at 10:07 PM on May 18, 2021 [3 favorites]


From the ACTUP SF Facebook page, it looks like whoever took the name over after the denialists died -- and every ACTUP SF AIDs denialist I checked died sometime in the early to mid 2000s -- are not denialists.
posted by tavella at 10:16 PM on May 18, 2021 [2 favorites]


They had at least one Nobel laureate on their side.

Serge Lang from Yale, too.
posted by praemunire at 12:04 AM on May 19, 2021


(I did not know the story of that poor baby. Christ.)
posted by praemunire at 12:06 AM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Serge Lang from Yale, too.

I must admit some disappointment since I have a great deal of respect for his algebraic work and had never heard about this particular extracurricular activity, but everything I've heard about Lang's personality suggests that going all-in on a crankish viewpoint outside his area of expertise was pretty much par for the course.
posted by jackbishop at 6:15 AM on May 19, 2021


This is why I only listen to the Bar Fighters.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:37 AM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


It's like finding out that the colour beige has a history of Holocaust denial.
posted by howfar at 10:37 AM on May 19, 2021 [8 favorites]


This is why I only listen to the Bar Fighters.
posted by Spathe Cadet An hour ago [+] [!]


something something...dave grohl... fubar
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:41 AM on May 19, 2021


One more reason to dislike this inexplicably beloved band.
posted by Dr. Wu at 12:04 PM on May 19, 2021


I deem them the antecedents of Creed and Nickelback. Of all the things to come out of Nirvana...
posted by praemunire at 12:06 PM on May 19, 2021 [2 favorites]


> From the ACTUP SF Facebook page, it looks like whoever took the name over after the denialists died -- and every ACTUP SF AIDs denialist I checked died sometime in the early to mid 2000s -- are not denialists.

Correct. A new group of activists re-started ACT UP in SF a few years ago, with a focus on housing issues in particular. I don't think they are still meeting or very active, but they are connected only in name to the denialists, who were also connected pretty much only by name with those of us in the original group.
posted by gingerbeer at 12:35 PM on May 19, 2021 [3 favorites]


I never thought I'd have a strong opinion about the Foo Fighters one way or the other, but here we are.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:55 PM on May 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Christine Maggiore’s husband is my landlord. I only Googled him two years into living here. That was a hell of a day.
posted by aaronbeekay at 5:33 AM on May 20, 2021 [3 favorites]


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