Into the Unknown Unknown
June 30, 2021 1:13 PM Subscribe
Donald Rumsfeld GW Bush defense secretary is dead at 88.
"As Charles de Gaulle said, the cemeteries of the world are full of indispensable men."
posted by box at 1:16 PM on June 30, 2021 [39 favorites]
posted by box at 1:16 PM on June 30, 2021 [39 favorites]
is dying at 88 a dogwhistle
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:18 PM on June 30, 2021 [145 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:18 PM on June 30, 2021 [145 favorites]
A genocidal war criminal. May he rot in hell.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:19 PM on June 30, 2021 [79 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:19 PM on June 30, 2021 [79 favorites]
here's my contribution
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:19 PM on June 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:19 PM on June 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
Sad to hear the passing of Donald Rumsfeld who met a tragic accident while vacationing in Iraq and fell into a hidden chamber full of WMDs
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:20 PM on June 30, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:20 PM on June 30, 2021 [11 favorites]
*
posted by djeo at 1:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by djeo at 1:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
He's been dead inside for decades, the outside's just caught up.
posted by reynir at 1:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by reynir at 1:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [17 favorites]
Repurposing a Bette Davis quote.
"You should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good… Donald Rumsfeld is dead. Good!"
posted by epo at 1:26 PM on June 30, 2021 [30 favorites]
"You should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good… Donald Rumsfeld is dead. Good!"
posted by epo at 1:26 PM on June 30, 2021 [30 favorites]
I was starting to wonder about these vampires.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:28 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:28 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
clarkson_ohnoanyway.jpg
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:28 PM on June 30, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:28 PM on June 30, 2021 [11 favorites]
In which he has been subjected to an extraordinary rendition of sorts.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:31 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:31 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
You built this.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:33 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by 2N2222 at 1:33 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Once again, I wish there was an afterlife so I could hope he faces some sort of justice. In the absence of that, all I can say here is this: *
posted by SansPoint at 1:37 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 1:37 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
*
posted by Token Meme at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by Token Meme at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2021
There's always something extra enraging that the people who do the most harm can't even be convinced they were wrong. At least feeling bad about it would be some kind of personal punishment in lieu of actual consequences.
posted by bleep at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
💩
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
oh no *
posted by The_Auditor at 1:43 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by The_Auditor at 1:43 PM on June 30, 2021
May the memory of Donald Rumsfeld be cursed and then forgotten, as we build a new world in the wake of his destruction.—Haymarket Books
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:46 PM on June 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:46 PM on June 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
I wrote that *exact* post title in my head and came here to see if it was up already.
posted by heyitsgogi at 1:48 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by heyitsgogi at 1:48 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm sure there will be a lot of well deserved jabs at Rumsfeld in this thread, but I highly recommend Errol Morris' Uknown Known and preferably watching the McNamara "Fog of War" before. The contrast between the two is enlightening, with McNamara seems to genuinely reflect on his life, including admitting as many others have that the fire bombing of Japan would have been a war crime, to truly seeming to believe that the Cuban missile crisis was a hair's inch of complete nuclear war. I have a feeling a lot of people here have watched both but thought I'd bring it up in case it slipped through the must-watch list.
posted by geoff. at 1:49 PM on June 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 1:49 PM on June 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
I guess we know we know that the evil bastard is dead now
posted by dis_integration at 1:49 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by dis_integration at 1:49 PM on June 30, 2021
For local beer drinkers looking to relieve themselves, his grave will be a target-rich environment.
(Also, yes, Fog of War is really worth watching.)
posted by gimonca at 1:54 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
(Also, yes, Fog of War is really worth watching.)
posted by gimonca at 1:54 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
There are known knowns, like the fact that Donald Rumsfeld is dead.
There are known unknowns, like whether or not there is a hell.
And there are known knowns about unknowns, which is that if hell exists Donald Rumsfeld has gone there.
- @bombsfall
posted by CrystalDave at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
There are known unknowns, like whether or not there is a hell.
And there are known knowns about unknowns, which is that if hell exists Donald Rumsfeld has gone there.
- @bombsfall
posted by CrystalDave at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
I can remember exactly where I was when I heard the news that he was resigning: Crossing the bridge over Core Creek, westbound on NC 101. Overjoyed.
That's all I care to say.
posted by glonous keming at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2021
That's all I care to say.
posted by glonous keming at 1:55 PM on June 30, 2021
"We know where [weapons of mass destruction] are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." Lie.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
*
posted by Leeway at 2:00 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Leeway at 2:00 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
"To the last man surviving on earth
I give my eyelids worn out by fear, to wear
in his long nights of radiation and silence,
so that his eyes can't close, for regret
is like tears seeping through closed eyelids."
-Galway Kinnell, 'The Dead Shall Be Raise Incorruptible'.
posted by clavdivs at 2:01 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
I give my eyelids worn out by fear, to wear
in his long nights of radiation and silence,
so that his eyes can't close, for regret
is like tears seeping through closed eyelids."
-Galway Kinnell, 'The Dead Shall Be Raise Incorruptible'.
posted by clavdivs at 2:01 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
This moment calls for some Charles P. Pierce:
You Go to Hell With the Alibis You Have: Donald Rumsfeld died on Wednesday. He was 88 years old, an age thousands of Iraqis will never reach because of him
posted by carrienation at 2:11 PM on June 30, 2021 [31 favorites]
You Go to Hell With the Alibis You Have: Donald Rumsfeld died on Wednesday. He was 88 years old, an age thousands of Iraqis will never reach because of him
posted by carrienation at 2:11 PM on June 30, 2021 [31 favorites]
This is sad news. Death was too good for him.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:15 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:15 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Twitter has been savage yet beautiful - my favorite being: Donald Rumsfeld: American Hero. Barely even did a ton of war crimes.
That said searching his name started to bring up a lot of images from the Iraq and Afghan wars and the war crimes on civilians that can't be unseen. I do not recommend.
Added bonus - at least he won't be around to be interviewed about the Afghan war when the US pulls out this year (*for a specific definition of pulls out). Hopefully Kissinger can go interview him soon?
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:18 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
That said searching his name started to bring up a lot of images from the Iraq and Afghan wars and the war crimes on civilians that can't be unseen. I do not recommend.
Added bonus - at least he won't be around to be interviewed about the Afghan war when the US pulls out this year (*for a specific definition of pulls out). Hopefully Kissinger can go interview him soon?
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:18 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
To grunt and sweat under a weary life
But that the dread of something after death
The known unknown country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
posted by Wallace Shawn at 2:19 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
But that the dread of something after death
The known unknown country from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
posted by Wallace Shawn at 2:19 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was only about 16 when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and it was incredibly jarring to see how easily the country could be led around by its nose into going along with, and condoning, unspeakable horrors at the drop of a hat. From die-hard hawks to Good Liberals Who Just Hate That We Have To Do This, (nearly) everybody was happy to jump off the cliff together. Since then, it's only been more and more clear that this was the rule and not the exception.
Every single person at the top who was involved in the planning and execution of those wars is genuinely a monster, but Rumsfeld always seemed the most nakedly reptilian. I agree with the recommendation to watch the Errol Morris documentary -- he doesn't even flinch talking about it. There isn't a flicker of anything behind his eyes. As the late John Prine said, some humans ain't human.
His passing brings no peace, and no fixes to the problems he continued or he himself created, but I hope that with him gone (and others soon in his wake), he and his cohort's rightful place in history will be cemented as not just a bunch of bloodless torturing freaks, but also ultimately as failures and losers; embarrassments to their families for generations to come.
posted by StopMakingSense at 2:31 PM on June 30, 2021 [28 favorites]
Every single person at the top who was involved in the planning and execution of those wars is genuinely a monster, but Rumsfeld always seemed the most nakedly reptilian. I agree with the recommendation to watch the Errol Morris documentary -- he doesn't even flinch talking about it. There isn't a flicker of anything behind his eyes. As the late John Prine said, some humans ain't human.
His passing brings no peace, and no fixes to the problems he continued or he himself created, but I hope that with him gone (and others soon in his wake), he and his cohort's rightful place in history will be cemented as not just a bunch of bloodless torturing freaks, but also ultimately as failures and losers; embarrassments to their families for generations to come.
posted by StopMakingSense at 2:31 PM on June 30, 2021 [28 favorites]
Do yourself a favor and skip the media coverage. Hey CNN, you can't just mention secret torture prisons in passing, like it's a trivial fact ('he liked jelly beans!').
88 seems unfair. Holy shit he was in the Nixon admin.
Rot in hell.
posted by adept256 at 2:32 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
88 seems unfair. Holy shit he was in the Nixon admin.
Rot in hell.
posted by adept256 at 2:32 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
DING DONG
posted by supermedusa at 2:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 2:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
There was a time in my life where I daydreamed about the parties we’d have when this man died. That was a long time ago, and although he was one very evil motherfucker, we couldn’t possibly anticipate the despicableness to come. Rumsfeld probably has more blood on his hands but The Orange One’s story hasn’t played out. Just finding it strange how I’m not even a little satisfied this turd is dead. He died of old age believing the twisted shit he did was right. May I earn the same fate.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:36 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:36 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
best way to hear the news, best way to celebrate it
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 2:39 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by Ten Cold Hot Dogs at 2:39 PM on June 30, 2021
Let all his surviving fans raise a glass of Diet Coke in his honor.
posted by jamjam at 2:52 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 2:52 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Good riddance.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2021
Showing my age, but literally last weekend my friend's baby was crying and I said "Oh, is it that bad?!? Is it John Ashcroft? Is it ... DONALD RUMSFELD? Oh, poor baby. I know."
posted by cyndigo at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by cyndigo at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
And how the fuck is Kissinger still alive?
We have got to find those other horcruces.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2021 [22 favorites]
We have got to find those other horcruces.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2021 [22 favorites]
I'm going to celebrate by listening to Zippo Songs.
The frustrating thing about the known unknowns kerfuffle is that it's actually a pretty reasonable statement when taken out of context. Even at the time, I found the humor about it irritating. It's not actually funny. It's either true and rather profound, if you don't know what question it followed, or a sociopath making light of war crimes, if you do know what question it followed. All the reporters in the room chuckling and all the comedians riffing on it for the next year missed the point.
For the last few years, I've taught a sample class to visiting parents and siblings of college students. I've always included a very sarcastic Rumsfeld slide. (It doesn't work on contemporary US college students, who despite having spent their entire lives at war, are too young to remember Rumsfeld.) It's a class about Fermi problems, so the quote makes a lot more sense in the context of the class than it did in the press briefing. I wonder if doing so will now upset people who are sad for reasons other than the fact that he didn't die in prison.
posted by eotvos at 2:56 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
The frustrating thing about the known unknowns kerfuffle is that it's actually a pretty reasonable statement when taken out of context. Even at the time, I found the humor about it irritating. It's not actually funny. It's either true and rather profound, if you don't know what question it followed, or a sociopath making light of war crimes, if you do know what question it followed. All the reporters in the room chuckling and all the comedians riffing on it for the next year missed the point.
For the last few years, I've taught a sample class to visiting parents and siblings of college students. I've always included a very sarcastic Rumsfeld slide. (It doesn't work on contemporary US college students, who despite having spent their entire lives at war, are too young to remember Rumsfeld.) It's a class about Fermi problems, so the quote makes a lot more sense in the context of the class than it did in the press briefing. I wonder if doing so will now upset people who are sad for reasons other than the fact that he didn't die in prison.
posted by eotvos at 2:56 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
88 seems unfair.
It's a callback to an earlier episode.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:00 PM on June 30, 2021
It's a callback to an earlier episode.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:00 PM on June 30, 2021
I like to think that he'll get to meet Roy Cohn, briefly, before being bustled off to his "reward."
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:02 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:02 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was only about 16 when we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and it was incredibly jarring to see how easily the country could be led around by its nose into going along with, and condoning, unspeakable horrors at the drop of a hat. From die-hard hawks to Good Liberals Who Just Hate That We Have To Do This, (nearly) everybody was happy to jump off the cliff together. Since then, it's only been more and more clear that this was the rule and not the exception.
Same. I was around the same age and the invasion of Iraq was what truly radicalized me as a teenager. I kept an entire folder of stuff related to my anti-war activism from that time because I was so worried that there'd be a draft and women would be included and I wanted evidence of being a conscientious objector. I am not normally a grave dancer but I am low key celebrating this ghoul's death. I only wish Rumsfeld had had a shoe thrown at him as well.
posted by mostly vowels at 3:04 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Same. I was around the same age and the invasion of Iraq was what truly radicalized me as a teenager. I kept an entire folder of stuff related to my anti-war activism from that time because I was so worried that there'd be a draft and women would be included and I wanted evidence of being a conscientious objector. I am not normally a grave dancer but I am low key celebrating this ghoul's death. I only wish Rumsfeld had had a shoe thrown at him as well.
posted by mostly vowels at 3:04 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is how I learned of his passing.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 3:05 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 3:05 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
actually said the stress positions used in CIA/DoD torture were no different than him working at a standing desk
posted by thelonius at 3:07 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 3:07 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
As a fish biologist and occasional taxonomist, I'm still angry that he was given the incredible honor of having a species named after him. The authors clearly thought it was a funny joke (they still occasionally bring it up with a chuckle), but I never did.
posted by deadbilly at 3:10 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by deadbilly at 3:10 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Bury him face down
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:10 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:10 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Died before he could be prosecuted.
And we're only 5 days before the anniversary of the death of Jesse Helms, another wonderful occasion for celebration. Maybe we could combine the two into a new federal holiday?
posted by Nelson at 3:11 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
And we're only 5 days before the anniversary of the death of Jesse Helms, another wonderful occasion for celebration. Maybe we could combine the two into a new federal holiday?
posted by Nelson at 3:11 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Same.
Same here. Only the second time I'd been to a protest was 2003. Someone up there mention that nearly everyone was onboard with the war. That's not my recollection at all. This cool film clip from System of a Down's - Boom! is a video collage of the worldwide protests accompanied by numbers. It was never popular. Sadly, I learnt of the futility of protests. They did it anyway, and died wealthy and comfortable in old age. Fucking criminals.
posted by adept256 at 3:14 PM on June 30, 2021 [21 favorites]
Same here. Only the second time I'd been to a protest was 2003. Someone up there mention that nearly everyone was onboard with the war. That's not my recollection at all. This cool film clip from System of a Down's - Boom! is a video collage of the worldwide protests accompanied by numbers. It was never popular. Sadly, I learnt of the futility of protests. They did it anyway, and died wealthy and comfortable in old age. Fucking criminals.
posted by adept256 at 3:14 PM on June 30, 2021 [21 favorites]
dude went to his grave believing Bill Cosby would die in prison
*
posted by sainttoad at 3:20 PM on June 30, 2021
*
posted by sainttoad at 3:20 PM on June 30, 2021
I saw a crack on AV Club saying something like, "I guess that means Dick Cheney won the tontine, then."
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:24 PM on June 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:24 PM on June 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
The reach of his harms goes back so far it's hard to conceive of. He is one of the architects and executors of the neoliberal, austere and forever-war reality we live in today.
I was trying to decide what I could say to sum up my feelings about him, and the best I could do was his grave will fertilize the flowers of future rebellions. Which is actually something I would say about friends and foes alike. In the end, he's just dead.
posted by latkes at 3:28 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
I was trying to decide what I could say to sum up my feelings about him, and the best I could do was his grave will fertilize the flowers of future rebellions. Which is actually something I would say about friends and foes alike. In the end, he's just dead.
posted by latkes at 3:28 PM on June 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
*
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:31 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:31 PM on June 30, 2021
*
Well, the first of what I call The Triumvirate of Evil has passed. Waiting with baited breath for Kissinger and Cheney to follow.
posted by dbmcd at 3:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Well, the first of what I call The Triumvirate of Evil has passed. Waiting with baited breath for Kissinger and Cheney to follow.
posted by dbmcd at 3:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
@pixelatedboat: Say what you will about Donald Rumsfeld, but without him Jeremy Renner never would’ve been launched to stardom by his Academy Award-nominated performance in The Hurt Locker
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
after 500 miles and endless renditions of that ac/dc song, the driver finally had to tell rumsfeld the truth
"no gas stations - no bathrooms - no motels - no restaurants - just the road and me driving and playing that wonderful song
"but the worst thing about the highway to hell is that you actually never get there - it just goes on and on and on ..."
posted by pyramid termite at 3:40 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
"no gas stations - no bathrooms - no motels - no restaurants - just the road and me driving and playing that wonderful song
"but the worst thing about the highway to hell is that you actually never get there - it just goes on and on and on ..."
posted by pyramid termite at 3:40 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
The arrogance of that crowd, and Rumsfeld specifically: If you look at what they were saying 2001-2006 it really was a belief that the US had the power and ability to conquer the world. That our military could compel compliance at any spot we wanted to deploy it, and that having demonstrated this we would get our way.
They couldn't even negotiate with Turkey prior to the Iraq. And yet this thinking informed so many bad decisions from the obvious wars and the conduct of wars to the hostility to any and all binding international collaboration on things like ICC or climate change.
* * *
Personal anecdote: I knew a rich guy who at least leaned libertarian and worked for Rumsfeld for a while in the private sector. He praised him, saying the most important lesson he learned from him was to be transparent, get the data out there, and don't obsess with spin. Given our different politics I could sort of believe he thought this is what Rumsfeld did, but I was just floored. Rich guy was otherwise quite grounded in reality.
I was trying to figure out a polite way to word my disbelief, when rich guy kind of shrugged and said "Then we all saw what he did in Washington, so I don't know what happened."
posted by mark k at 3:43 PM on June 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
They couldn't even negotiate with Turkey prior to the Iraq. And yet this thinking informed so many bad decisions from the obvious wars and the conduct of wars to the hostility to any and all binding international collaboration on things like ICC or climate change.
* * *
Personal anecdote: I knew a rich guy who at least leaned libertarian and worked for Rumsfeld for a while in the private sector. He praised him, saying the most important lesson he learned from him was to be transparent, get the data out there, and don't obsess with spin. Given our different politics I could sort of believe he thought this is what Rumsfeld did, but I was just floored. Rich guy was otherwise quite grounded in reality.
I was trying to figure out a polite way to word my disbelief, when rich guy kind of shrugged and said "Then we all saw what he did in Washington, so I don't know what happened."
posted by mark k at 3:43 PM on June 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
If he thought that he was escaping this summer heat wave, I have news for him.
posted by delfin at 3:47 PM on June 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by delfin at 3:47 PM on June 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
People make fun of that “unknown unknowns” quote, but it always struck me as a pretty astute summary of the nature of decision analysis.
Also:
He was the youngest secretary of defense, the oldest secretary of defense, and the worst secretary of defense.
Also a war criminal.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:47 PM on June 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
Also:
He was the youngest secretary of defense, the oldest secretary of defense, and the worst secretary of defense.
Also a war criminal.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:47 PM on June 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
A mass murder, even if he kept his own hands clean.
Except for that time she shot his friend in the chest, and then made the friend apologise to him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:58 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Except for that time she shot his friend in the chest, and then made the friend apologise to him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:58 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
People make fun of that “unknown unknowns” quote, but it always struck me as a pretty astute summary of the nature of decision analysis.
This. He was an evil contemptuous mass murderer whose bones will be soaked in urine for decades to come, but what he stated about the nature of intelligence analysis was 100% on the mark. The reasoning behind it is so straightforward that I often wonder about the higher functions of people who treat it as a punchline.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:00 PM on June 30, 2021 [25 favorites]
This. He was an evil contemptuous mass murderer whose bones will be soaked in urine for decades to come, but what he stated about the nature of intelligence analysis was 100% on the mark. The reasoning behind it is so straightforward that I often wonder about the higher functions of people who treat it as a punchline.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:00 PM on June 30, 2021 [25 favorites]
Thanks to Carell's portrayal of him in Vice, I will forever mentally associate him with Michael Scott.
As Brokaw never really said, 'He was delicious.'
posted by zaixfeep at 4:14 PM on June 30, 2021
As Brokaw never really said, 'He was delicious.'
posted by zaixfeep at 4:14 PM on June 30, 2021
I didn't realize people repeated that line to make fun of it.. I thought it was making fun of that it was the best justification we got for launching a whole war, just a big old shrug, like "We don't fuckin know, OK?"
posted by bleep at 4:16 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:16 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think it's the clunky phrasing. It could be stated with greater brevity. It also reminds me of Sir Humphrey of Yes, Minister, whose regular contortions of language disguised whatever banal evil he was promoting.
posted by adept256 at 4:20 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 4:20 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
The arrogance of that crowd, and Rumsfeld specifically: If you look at what they were saying 2001-2006 it really was a belief that the US had the power and ability to conquer the world. That our military could compel compliance at any spot we wanted to deploy it, and that having demonstrated this we would get our way.
The even more cynical take - which, who knows, I suppose we may never find out, or not for decades - is that the smarter ones, like Rumsfeld and Cheney, didn't actually believe this at all. That supposed belief in American invincibility was just a way to sell it to the rubes - what they were really interested in was testing out various tactics and strategies and weapons and getting the various troops and units and officers combat experience in anticipation of that type of warfare becoming the "new normal."
Well, that and the oil.
(And setting aside the real probability that our involvement is what made this kind of war the "new normal.")
Good fucking riddance.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
The even more cynical take - which, who knows, I suppose we may never find out, or not for decades - is that the smarter ones, like Rumsfeld and Cheney, didn't actually believe this at all. That supposed belief in American invincibility was just a way to sell it to the rubes - what they were really interested in was testing out various tactics and strategies and weapons and getting the various troops and units and officers combat experience in anticipation of that type of warfare becoming the "new normal."
Well, that and the oil.
(And setting aside the real probability that our involvement is what made this kind of war the "new normal.")
Good fucking riddance.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
Except for that time she shot his friend in the chest, and then made the friend apologise to him.
Wrong war criminal. That was Cheney, whose mechanical heart continues to whir.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:24 PM on June 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
Wrong war criminal. That was Cheney, whose mechanical heart continues to whir.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:24 PM on June 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
Nothing of value was lost.
posted by Splunge at 4:36 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 4:36 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Not thinking of anyone in particular, but if you want to be fondly remembered when you die, don’t be a vicious warmonger when you’re alive. @middleageriot
posted by theora55 at 4:54 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 4:54 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Barely even did a ton of war crimes.Are we weighing bodies? In that case, "barely" is stretched pretty far. By a factor of more than 5'000 given conservative estimates and assuming a significant portion were young children, and considering only the US war on Iraq.
(To be clear, it's a good quote and a good point. I'm not arguing with it.)
posted by eotvos at 4:58 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
adept256, when I participated in that protest (Kennebunk), my sign said Impeach Cheney First.
posted by theora55 at 4:58 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 4:58 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
He died in Taos, New Mexico where he'd been living since leaving office. I'm not sure what possessed him to live there, but I suspect it was probably having a huge ranch where he could hide out. No one I know who lives up there had ever seen the man (not that they ran in his circle of gangsters).
On July 1 - 7, the Rainbow Gathering is happening South of town, in the Carson Ntl Forest… just days after marijuana use is legalized in New Mexico. Maybe they can cleanse the world of his abysmal spirit. Or at least have one hella great drum circle to send him off!
posted by jabo at 5:01 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
On July 1 - 7, the Rainbow Gathering is happening South of town, in the Carson Ntl Forest… just days after marijuana use is legalized in New Mexico. Maybe they can cleanse the world of his abysmal spirit. Or at least have one hella great drum circle to send him off!
posted by jabo at 5:01 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
that “unknown unknowns” quote,
That quote was absolutely on point and astute. It shows a decent understanding of functional epistemology and adaptive management, putting his intellect a notch above many of his wretched ilk.
This is why plenty of liberal scientists quote those bits, and why (as mentioned above) people would name an otherwise decent fish after him.
But in my estimation, this mark of intellect is not to his credit but a deep assurance of his evil.
You know that line about not attributing to evil what can easily be attributed to stupidity?
Not for this vile fucker: he was bright, and when he slew thousands of innocent people he knew damn well what he was doing. That makes him worse— not better— than his dim-witted partners in crime.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:24 PM on June 30, 2021 [44 favorites]
That quote was absolutely on point and astute. It shows a decent understanding of functional epistemology and adaptive management, putting his intellect a notch above many of his wretched ilk.
This is why plenty of liberal scientists quote those bits, and why (as mentioned above) people would name an otherwise decent fish after him.
But in my estimation, this mark of intellect is not to his credit but a deep assurance of his evil.
You know that line about not attributing to evil what can easily be attributed to stupidity?
Not for this vile fucker: he was bright, and when he slew thousands of innocent people he knew damn well what he was doing. That makes him worse— not better— than his dim-witted partners in crime.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:24 PM on June 30, 2021 [44 favorites]
The reasoning behind it is so straightforward that I often wonder about the higher functions of people who treat it as a punchline.
It is a punchline, but a terrible one, and only because of context and the human cost, still being paid by Iraqis and some Americans today. When listening to his "unknown unknowns" speech, one should consider that it was made entirely for the purpose of obfuscating to the press (and to the public, by extension) what his department was doing, using rhetorical sleight-of-hand. Rumsfeld served up a calculated piece of Frankfurtian bullshit, perhaps the most perfect non-answer to genuine evidentiary questions, for which the public deserved real answers.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:33 PM on June 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
It is a punchline, but a terrible one, and only because of context and the human cost, still being paid by Iraqis and some Americans today. When listening to his "unknown unknowns" speech, one should consider that it was made entirely for the purpose of obfuscating to the press (and to the public, by extension) what his department was doing, using rhetorical sleight-of-hand. Rumsfeld served up a calculated piece of Frankfurtian bullshit, perhaps the most perfect non-answer to genuine evidentiary questions, for which the public deserved real answers.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:33 PM on June 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
If any news organizations need a headline, here’s my offer. Feel free to use it!
Only the Good Die Young. Rumsfeld Dead at 88.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 5:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Only the Good Die Young. Rumsfeld Dead at 88.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 5:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Archive link for the Washington Post's "Donald Rumsfeld, influential but controversial Bush defense secretary, dies at 88" obit in the FPP. Cause of death was multiple myeloma.
Drawing on a network of schoolmates in the [Chicago] area, he scored an upset win in the 1962 primary against the GOP establishment’s pick and entered the House of Representatives in 1963 as the youngest Republican member. [...] In time, Mr. Rumsfeld emerged as a strong supporter of civil rights, a proponent of greater openness in government and a critic of the Vietnam War. He was among the first in Congress to oppose the military draft, arguing for the establishment of an all-volunteer force. His hallmark issue remained congressional reform, which he pursued with typical brashness and determination. He even set a filibustering record in 1968, delaying House action on a bill through an entire night to call attention to reform legislation he favored. [...]
In 1969, he jumped to the executive branch, accepting an offer from the newly elected Nixon to head the troubled Office of Economic Opportunity, a freewheeling collection of anti-poverty programs. Nixon had promised to rein in the OEO. But Mr. Rumsfeld, while imposing tighter controls and scaling back some aspects of the organization, proved a surprisingly strong defender of the agency’s need to exist. While at OEO, Mr. Rumsfeld hired a young Capitol Hill staff aide named Richard B. Cheney to be his top assistant.
The obituary includes the story of Searle, aspartame, and how Rumsfeld shepherded the manufacturer to FDA approval of its artificial sweetener: "Mr. Rumsfeld revised the company’s lab practices and put together a lobbying effort that successfully gained FDA approval for the sweetener and a congressional extension of the patent for it. In 1985, the sale of Searle to Monsanto transformed Mr. Rumsfeld into a multimillionaire."
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:36 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Drawing on a network of schoolmates in the [Chicago] area, he scored an upset win in the 1962 primary against the GOP establishment’s pick and entered the House of Representatives in 1963 as the youngest Republican member. [...] In time, Mr. Rumsfeld emerged as a strong supporter of civil rights, a proponent of greater openness in government and a critic of the Vietnam War. He was among the first in Congress to oppose the military draft, arguing for the establishment of an all-volunteer force. His hallmark issue remained congressional reform, which he pursued with typical brashness and determination. He even set a filibustering record in 1968, delaying House action on a bill through an entire night to call attention to reform legislation he favored. [...]
In 1969, he jumped to the executive branch, accepting an offer from the newly elected Nixon to head the troubled Office of Economic Opportunity, a freewheeling collection of anti-poverty programs. Nixon had promised to rein in the OEO. But Mr. Rumsfeld, while imposing tighter controls and scaling back some aspects of the organization, proved a surprisingly strong defender of the agency’s need to exist. While at OEO, Mr. Rumsfeld hired a young Capitol Hill staff aide named Richard B. Cheney to be his top assistant.
The obituary includes the story of Searle, aspartame, and how Rumsfeld shepherded the manufacturer to FDA approval of its artificial sweetener: "Mr. Rumsfeld revised the company’s lab practices and put together a lobbying effort that successfully gained FDA approval for the sweetener and a congressional extension of the patent for it. In 1985, the sale of Searle to Monsanto transformed Mr. Rumsfeld into a multimillionaire."
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:36 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are 151,000 to 1,033,000 reasons why this fucker should roast in hell, and his name not be mentioned without the words "mass murderer" in front of him.
posted by lalochezia at 5:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 5:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
a supremely competent, glibly intelligent, evil fuck. perhaps a great man in the parlance of political history. not normally prone to exclamations of "whoo-hoo!" upon reading breaking celebrity obituary notifications, this time i subvocalized it before judging the sentiment maybe impious. but fuck yeah. fuck donald rumsfeld.
my thoughts are with him; my prayers for mundane justice, unanswered, frustrated forever. (my hope for divine justice an ironic rhetorical flourish). i will probably use up all my favorites here. fuck donald rumsfeld is my, like, whole wheelhouse. so much that is terrible in present usa owes to his activities (among, y'know, no shortage of other evil fuck fellow travelers, coconspirators, mentors, rivals and colleagues and their activities, as well as the prior generations' evil fucks on whose shoulders they all stand).
i used to admire how he would spar with the press corps. masterful evasions and ripostes! sure he was doing it in service of [activities i abjure, read: "evil"], but he did it well. the known knowns thing is a case in point. it was not responsive to the question but it sort of sketched some of something epistemologically profound (he left out unknown-knowns, things that we do not know that we know) that filled some time and befuddled the corps before stating he wouldn't answer the question. so it is a joke insofar as it says nothing with, like, falsely erudite condescension, and, you know, leads to disastrous waste of lives and fortunes and futures and history. but the insight of the quadrants of the epistemic plane is not, itself, a joke. however detestable, fleischer was pretty good at dancing with the press; but rumsfeld was a jedi. or sith or whatever. now i'm ashamed of my metaphor.
we did not all happily go along with it. our, then, "largest protests ever" (i don't have a cite, but recall some press to that effect) against the iraq debacle were unavailing. we were dragged along.
we are still being dragged along. straight line to the present. straight line from the, indeed, arrogant project for the new american century to maga. probably he, probably rightly, despised that other donald, but he helped make him possible.
fuck rumsfeld.
posted by 20 year lurk at 5:40 PM on June 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
my thoughts are with him; my prayers for mundane justice, unanswered, frustrated forever. (my hope for divine justice an ironic rhetorical flourish). i will probably use up all my favorites here. fuck donald rumsfeld is my, like, whole wheelhouse. so much that is terrible in present usa owes to his activities (among, y'know, no shortage of other evil fuck fellow travelers, coconspirators, mentors, rivals and colleagues and their activities, as well as the prior generations' evil fucks on whose shoulders they all stand).
i used to admire how he would spar with the press corps. masterful evasions and ripostes! sure he was doing it in service of [activities i abjure, read: "evil"], but he did it well. the known knowns thing is a case in point. it was not responsive to the question but it sort of sketched some of something epistemologically profound (he left out unknown-knowns, things that we do not know that we know) that filled some time and befuddled the corps before stating he wouldn't answer the question. so it is a joke insofar as it says nothing with, like, falsely erudite condescension, and, you know, leads to disastrous waste of lives and fortunes and futures and history. but the insight of the quadrants of the epistemic plane is not, itself, a joke. however detestable, fleischer was pretty good at dancing with the press; but rumsfeld was a jedi. or sith or whatever. now i'm ashamed of my metaphor.
we did not all happily go along with it. our, then, "largest protests ever" (i don't have a cite, but recall some press to that effect) against the iraq debacle were unavailing. we were dragged along.
we are still being dragged along. straight line to the present. straight line from the, indeed, arrogant project for the new american century to maga. probably he, probably rightly, despised that other donald, but he helped make him possible.
fuck rumsfeld.
posted by 20 year lurk at 5:40 PM on June 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
Fun Fact. Rumsfeld got the famed "Unknown Knowns" saying from a USAF 0-6 during a JFCOM visit. (He actually had her repeat it slowly, so he could write it down, but he never gave her credit.)
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:51 PM on June 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:51 PM on June 30, 2021 [18 favorites]
Good, do Kissinger, Rove, and Cheney next.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:10 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by kitten kaboodle at 6:10 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
Thread reader links:
Fun Fact. Rumsfeld got the famed "Unknown Knowns" saying from a USAF 0-6 during a JFCOM visit. (He actually had her repeat it slowly, so he could write it down, but he never gave her credit.) - Micah Zenko @MicahZenko
I was on the Joint Staff during Rumsfeld’s reign. That’s very Rumsfeldesque. - K. Campbell @KCampbell_Risks, replying to @MicahZenko
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:13 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Fun Fact. Rumsfeld got the famed "Unknown Knowns" saying from a USAF 0-6 during a JFCOM visit. (He actually had her repeat it slowly, so he could write it down, but he never gave her credit.) - Micah Zenko @MicahZenko
I was on the Joint Staff during Rumsfeld’s reign. That’s very Rumsfeldesque. - K. Campbell @KCampbell_Risks, replying to @MicahZenko
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:13 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
once he's learned it, it is just a known known. but i thought the term was rumsfeldian.
posted by 20 year lurk at 6:15 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by 20 year lurk at 6:15 PM on June 30, 2021
That quote was absolutely on point and astute. It shows a decent understanding of functional epistemology and adaptive management, putting his intellect a notch above many of his wretched ilk.
It was not astute. It was glib, in the manner of internet debatelords everywhere. Deflection by way of freshman humanities conference. But with a body count.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:20 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
It was not astute. It was glib, in the manner of internet debatelords everywhere. Deflection by way of freshman humanities conference. But with a body count.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:20 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Imagine minding your own business, being a weiner dog at a party, and suddenly,
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:22 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:22 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
20 year lurk I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Your blithering eloquence is brilliant.
posted by supermedusa at 6:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 6:23 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Good.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:30 PM on June 30, 2021
posted by ob1quixote at 6:30 PM on June 30, 2021
The fact that I have lived long enough to read this news fills me with great satisfaction.
posted by moonbiter at 6:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by moonbiter at 6:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Rachel Maddow just took most of her A block to remind us that Rumsfeld's weekend residence during the Bush Administration was Mount Misery. Y'know, where Frederick Douglass was sent to an infamous "slave-breaker" for a year because his master deemed him insufficiently servile.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 6:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 6:38 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
Hell just got a little bit evil-er today.
posted by dgeiser13 at 6:40 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by dgeiser13 at 6:40 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
On July 1 - 7, the Rainbow Gathering is happening South of town, in the Carson Ntl Forest…
Hey! My first ever Rainbow National Gathering was just north of Taos, back in 1995 or 96. It was a life changing experience for me. It overlapped Santa Fe Pride, and the Radical Faeries and a bunch of Rainbows all invaded the Capitol and joined the march from the Round House to the Plaza and had the biggest dance party ever.
If anyone can cleanse the air, they can do it.
posted by hippybear at 6:43 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Hey! My first ever Rainbow National Gathering was just north of Taos, back in 1995 or 96. It was a life changing experience for me. It overlapped Santa Fe Pride, and the Radical Faeries and a bunch of Rainbows all invaded the Capitol and joined the march from the Round House to the Plaza and had the biggest dance party ever.
If anyone can cleanse the air, they can do it.
posted by hippybear at 6:43 PM on June 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, the first of what I call The Triumvirate of Evil has passed. Waiting with baited breath for Kissinger and Cheney to follow.
Let's not forget George Bush 2, too.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:51 PM on June 30, 2021
Let's not forget George Bush 2, too.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:51 PM on June 30, 2021
🦀 🦀 🦀
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🦀 🦀 🦀
🦀🦀🦀
🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
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🦀 🦀 🦀
🦀 🦀 🦀
🦀 🦀 🦀posted by loquacious at 6:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [8 favorites] Rumsfeld, we knew ye well
now tolling, your death knell
for all your evil, wicked deeds
you’ll rot in stinking hell
your filthy lies fed countless deaths
a legacy of shame
i’ll join the millions round the world
who roundly curse your name
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:02 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
now tolling, your death knell
for all your evil, wicked deeds
you’ll rot in stinking hell
your filthy lies fed countless deaths
a legacy of shame
i’ll join the millions round the world
who roundly curse your name
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:02 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
There are 151,000 to 1,033,000 reasons why this fucker should roast in hell, and his name not be mentioned without the words "mass murderer" in front of him.
"Mass murderer and war criminal, Donald Rumsfeld" has sort of a nice ring to it, much like "Rapist, Brock Turner".
posted by xedrik at 7:04 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Mass murderer and war criminal, Donald Rumsfeld" has sort of a nice ring to it, much like "Rapist, Brock Turner".
posted by xedrik at 7:04 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Repurposing a Bette Davis quote.
"You should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good… Donald Rumsfeld is dead. Good!"
That'd be Jackie "Moms" Mabley (thanks, Twitter.) [it's still Pride month.]
Also - Farewell, America's Grandpa of Death.
posted by sysinfo at 7:27 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
"You should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good… Donald Rumsfeld is dead. Good!"
That'd be Jackie "Moms" Mabley (thanks, Twitter.) [it's still Pride month.]
Also - Farewell, America's Grandpa of Death.
posted by sysinfo at 7:27 PM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Somewhere, Kissinger has been surrounded by and filled with lightning due to the Quickening.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 7:57 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 7:57 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
It was not astute. It was glib, in the manner of internet debatelords everywhere. Deflection by way of freshman humanities conference. But with a body count.
This is a much more succinct and appropriate phrasing and I wish I had used it as my epitaph for the man: Glib, but with a body count. Calling him a bullshitter of the worst kind is not nearly enough, in a lot of ways.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is a much more succinct and appropriate phrasing and I wish I had used it as my epitaph for the man: Glib, but with a body count. Calling him a bullshitter of the worst kind is not nearly enough, in a lot of ways.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
And how the fuck is Kissinger still alive?
He made the better deal with Satan.
My favourite is "The Onion's Weapon of Mass Destruction found dead at 88."
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:25 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
He made the better deal with Satan.
My favourite is "The Onion's Weapon of Mass Destruction found dead at 88."
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:25 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
adept256: Sadly, I learnt of the futility of protests. They did it anyway, and died wealthy and comfortable in old age.
Many years ago I read something from Chomsky that really stuck with me. It said something to the effect that peaceful protest does not have any immediate effect, but does have a long-term effect years later. (And violent protest is pretty much the opposite.) Public discourse doesn't turn on a dime; it takes a while for good ideas to sink in.
One of Trump's platform points was "no more stupid wars". How do you suppose Trump supporters, of all people, would end up being anti-war? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it had something to do with all those people calling BS on Rumsfeld and his ilk all those years ago. Pointing to Trump here may seem ironic, but consider that as bad as the Trump presidency was, it could've been a lot worse.
posted by swr at 9:29 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Many years ago I read something from Chomsky that really stuck with me. It said something to the effect that peaceful protest does not have any immediate effect, but does have a long-term effect years later. (And violent protest is pretty much the opposite.) Public discourse doesn't turn on a dime; it takes a while for good ideas to sink in.
One of Trump's platform points was "no more stupid wars". How do you suppose Trump supporters, of all people, would end up being anti-war? I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it had something to do with all those people calling BS on Rumsfeld and his ilk all those years ago. Pointing to Trump here may seem ironic, but consider that as bad as the Trump presidency was, it could've been a lot worse.
posted by swr at 9:29 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Wrong war criminal. That was Cheney, whose mechanical heart continues to whir.
Oh goddamn it. These war criminals all look the same to me. Like racist hessian sacks filled with off brand spam.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:37 PM on June 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
Oh goddamn it. These war criminals all look the same to me. Like racist hessian sacks filled with off brand spam.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:37 PM on June 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
It said something to the effect that peaceful protest does not have any immediate effect, but does have a long-term effect years later. (And violent protest is pretty much the opposite.)
Weren't the Suffragists in Britain ignored for, like, decades of peaceful protest, but after launching a window smashing and bombing campaign they won the right to vote rather quickly?
posted by hippybear at 9:50 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Weren't the Suffragists in Britain ignored for, like, decades of peaceful protest, but after launching a window smashing and bombing campaign they won the right to vote rather quickly?
posted by hippybear at 9:50 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Let's not forget George Bush 2, too.
(He could plead ignorance, if he was judged the basis of being slack-jawed.)
posted by ovvl at 9:53 PM on June 30, 2021
(He could plead ignorance, if he was judged the basis of being slack-jawed.)
posted by ovvl at 9:53 PM on June 30, 2021
He could plead ignorance
He could, but he was also caught on camera saying, about Saddam Hussein and the invasion of Iraq, "That's the guy who tried to kill my Dad." [CNN article, video]
Ever since I saw that, I've been convinced it was a revenge war, and nothing else.
posted by hippybear at 9:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
He could, but he was also caught on camera saying, about Saddam Hussein and the invasion of Iraq, "That's the guy who tried to kill my Dad." [CNN article, video]
Ever since I saw that, I've been convinced it was a revenge war, and nothing else.
posted by hippybear at 9:59 PM on June 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
One Evil Donald renditioned unto eternity.
One more to go.
posted by Pouteria at 10:11 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
One more to go.
posted by Pouteria at 10:11 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don’t think protest alone is enough, and I’d wager that traumatic deployments and terrible economic conditions have had more to do with anti-war sentiment than the giant marches that took place around the world in 2002 and 2003.
Meanwhile, a whole lot of folks who happily voted in favor of two illegal wars are still sitting in office, including the current president of the United States, who dropped bombs on Iraq all of three days ago. Nobody paid a political, personal, or economic price for decisions that have uprooted and ended millions of lives and if push came to shove I wager they’d do it all over again. Fuck Rumsfeld and his fellow glib architects of evil, but there’s a lot of blame left to go around
The anti-war protests of the early 2000s feel, to me, like an infuriating lesson in futility. I am sure that smarter people than me have thought it through, especially in light of what protests did and didn’t accomplish last year, but my takeaway from the anti-war protests has been that protest only works when it is part of a broader strategy to disrupt and claim power, and that there are severe limitations to movements that are content to remain in opposition rather than trying to take charge.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:15 PM on June 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
Meanwhile, a whole lot of folks who happily voted in favor of two illegal wars are still sitting in office, including the current president of the United States, who dropped bombs on Iraq all of three days ago. Nobody paid a political, personal, or economic price for decisions that have uprooted and ended millions of lives and if push came to shove I wager they’d do it all over again. Fuck Rumsfeld and his fellow glib architects of evil, but there’s a lot of blame left to go around
The anti-war protests of the early 2000s feel, to me, like an infuriating lesson in futility. I am sure that smarter people than me have thought it through, especially in light of what protests did and didn’t accomplish last year, but my takeaway from the anti-war protests has been that protest only works when it is part of a broader strategy to disrupt and claim power, and that there are severe limitations to movements that are content to remain in opposition rather than trying to take charge.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 10:15 PM on June 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
He and his and their Wolfowitzian warglee are responsible for both the millions of Iraqi, Afghanistani, and Pakistani (among others) lives murdered and also for the annhiliation of the eventual millions of their descendants' lives. We are all human beings, we are all connected, this is a wound we each carry, every human being, consciously and unconsciously. War has ever been thus, and has led us via spiraling, ever-more traumatic loops of itself to where we find ourselves: A glib patriarch can leave a body count of millions in under a decade and millions more lost to time, can inflict a trauma count on billions of people and generations to come. His death reminds us that others have done the same and worse, we already list here some of those known to come.
We must radically change how we human. Here. Everywhere. Physically, mentally, societally, culturally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually we cannot afford anymore of this psychopathy. Our species, our planet, our climate, the other life on earth, none can anymore afford this exponentially-accelerated raining down of trauma, hatred, death, violence, and war. Out of these ashes and ruins these fundamentally mediocre, selfish, small-minded, fearful, impossibly entitled men have repeatedly shaped our meatspaces and now virtual theaters to facilitate and enable the evisceration and destruction of their fellow human beings and planet in whatever manner they feel comfortably assuages their idiosyncraticly banal egos, appetites, shames, and fears, and to continue to empower and prioritize this culture as their all-consuming right and duty.
This is all 101, but and still: We have to Love this thing around. We cannot take any more of these people. All this is Known Knowns, and for Love's Sake we must change. We can no longer afford glib flim-flam bullshitting sophist bullies, they have been and are death. Left to their devices their impact can only get worse.
posted by riverlife at 10:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
We must radically change how we human. Here. Everywhere. Physically, mentally, societally, culturally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually we cannot afford anymore of this psychopathy. Our species, our planet, our climate, the other life on earth, none can anymore afford this exponentially-accelerated raining down of trauma, hatred, death, violence, and war. Out of these ashes and ruins these fundamentally mediocre, selfish, small-minded, fearful, impossibly entitled men have repeatedly shaped our meatspaces and now virtual theaters to facilitate and enable the evisceration and destruction of their fellow human beings and planet in whatever manner they feel comfortably assuages their idiosyncraticly banal egos, appetites, shames, and fears, and to continue to empower and prioritize this culture as their all-consuming right and duty.
This is all 101, but and still: We have to Love this thing around. We cannot take any more of these people. All this is Known Knowns, and for Love's Sake we must change. We can no longer afford glib flim-flam bullshitting sophist bullies, they have been and are death. Left to their devices their impact can only get worse.
posted by riverlife at 10:35 PM on June 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Is Aspartame really that bad for you?
I mean fuck Donald Rumsfeld regardless but is there a consensus on Aspartame?
posted by Rumple at 11:00 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
I mean fuck Donald Rumsfeld regardless but is there a consensus on Aspartame?
posted by Rumple at 11:00 PM on June 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Packer in the Atlantic pulls no punches.
He believed in regime change but not in nation building, and he thought that a few tens of thousands of troops would be enough to win in Iraq. He thought that the quick overthrow of Saddam’s regime meant mission accomplished. He responded to the looting of Baghdad by saying “Freedom’s untidy,” as if the chaos was just a giddy display of democracy—as if it would not devastate Iraq and become America’s problem, too. He believed that Iraq should be led by a corrupt London banker with a history of deceiving the U.S. government. He faxed pages from a biography of Che Guevara to a U.S. Army officer in the region to prove that the growing Iraqi resistance did not meet the definition of an insurgency. He dismissed the insurgents as “dead-enders” and humiliated a top general who dared to call them by their true name. He insisted on keeping the number of U.S. troops in Iraq so low that much of the country soon fell to the insurgency. He focused his best effort on winning bureaucratic wars in Washington.
By the time Rumsfeld was fired, in November 2006, the U.S., instead of securing peace in one country, was losing wars in two, largely because of actions and decisions taken by Rumsfeld himself. As soon as he was gone, the disaster in Iraq began to turn around, at least briefly, with a surge of 30,000 troops, a policy change that Rumsfeld had adamantly opposed. But it was too late. Perhaps it was too late by the early afternoon of September 11.
Rumsfeld had intelligence, wit, dash, and endless faith in himself. Unlike McNamara, he never expressed a quiver of regret. He must have died in the secure knowledge that he had been right all along.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:34 AM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
He believed in regime change but not in nation building, and he thought that a few tens of thousands of troops would be enough to win in Iraq. He thought that the quick overthrow of Saddam’s regime meant mission accomplished. He responded to the looting of Baghdad by saying “Freedom’s untidy,” as if the chaos was just a giddy display of democracy—as if it would not devastate Iraq and become America’s problem, too. He believed that Iraq should be led by a corrupt London banker with a history of deceiving the U.S. government. He faxed pages from a biography of Che Guevara to a U.S. Army officer in the region to prove that the growing Iraqi resistance did not meet the definition of an insurgency. He dismissed the insurgents as “dead-enders” and humiliated a top general who dared to call them by their true name. He insisted on keeping the number of U.S. troops in Iraq so low that much of the country soon fell to the insurgency. He focused his best effort on winning bureaucratic wars in Washington.
By the time Rumsfeld was fired, in November 2006, the U.S., instead of securing peace in one country, was losing wars in two, largely because of actions and decisions taken by Rumsfeld himself. As soon as he was gone, the disaster in Iraq began to turn around, at least briefly, with a surge of 30,000 troops, a policy change that Rumsfeld had adamantly opposed. But it was too late. Perhaps it was too late by the early afternoon of September 11.
Rumsfeld had intelligence, wit, dash, and endless faith in himself. Unlike McNamara, he never expressed a quiver of regret. He must have died in the secure knowledge that he had been right all along.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:34 AM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
Good riddance. If only he'd died many decades earlier.
posted by ead at 2:18 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ead at 2:18 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Lileks spent the latter half of one of his bleat columns in 2004 just fawning over this ghoul
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:26 AM on July 1, 2021
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:26 AM on July 1, 2021
Really the only well considered thing about that column was its name.
posted by flabdablet at 6:43 AM on July 1, 2021
posted by flabdablet at 6:43 AM on July 1, 2021
is dying at 88 a dogwhistle
A fair question, but I don't think so. I would expect Rumsfeld to have considered Hitler worthy of at least as much total contempt as everybody else who wasn't Rumsfeld.
posted by flabdablet at 6:51 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
A fair question, but I don't think so. I would expect Rumsfeld to have considered Hitler worthy of at least as much total contempt as everybody else who wasn't Rumsfeld.
posted by flabdablet at 6:51 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I mean fuck Donald Rumsfeld regardless but is there a consensus on Aspartame?
I mean it seems like either there is a grand, international conspiracy to cover up the negative effects of aspartame or, despite tasting terrible, it is safe for consumption by the general population, unless you suffer from phenylketonuria (which also means there's a ton of other stuff you can't eat).
posted by dis_integration at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I mean it seems like either there is a grand, international conspiracy to cover up the negative effects of aspartame or, despite tasting terrible, it is safe for consumption by the general population, unless you suffer from phenylketonuria (which also means there's a ton of other stuff you can't eat).
posted by dis_integration at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
And he's off to Karma Village, to receive his final reward for a life of service and dedication. In his case, he gets to stand naked on a flimsy orange crate with a bag over his head. In this chapter of his afterlife, his victims line up to squirt him with super soakers filled with camel piss. Passersby are invited to crank the handle of the field phone that powers the electrodes attached to his nipples, while shouting "Enhance this, motherfucker!" in various Arabic dialects.
posted by mule98J at 7:04 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by mule98J at 7:04 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would also like to put in a vote for consistently misspelling his name as "Rumsfield" and see if we can get it to stick.
This is the kind of petty spiteful bullshit that I would have expected to shit him to tears were he still in a position to do anything about it, which makes it the perfect way to celebrate and memorialize the fact that he is not.
Or pissing on his grave would be fine as well. If I'm ever in the US (not that that's likely) it would certainly be on my list of things to do there.
posted by flabdablet at 7:06 AM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is the kind of petty spiteful bullshit that I would have expected to shit him to tears were he still in a position to do anything about it, which makes it the perfect way to celebrate and memorialize the fact that he is not.
Or pissing on his grave would be fine as well. If I'm ever in the US (not that that's likely) it would certainly be on my list of things to do there.
posted by flabdablet at 7:06 AM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
he left out unknown-knowns, things that we do not know that we knowFascinating. Also, uncertain knowns, the things we think we might know about whether or not we know.
One could add a continuous confidence level to it. The 90% known 30% knowns, and so on. I'm 70% confident that I can name 86% of Australian states. But, making that actually useful requires some assumptions about distributions.
posted by eotvos at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Fun Fact. Rumsfeld got the famed "Unknown Knowns" saying from a USAF 0-6 during a JFCOM visit. (He actually had her repeat it slowly, so he could write it down, but he never gave her credit.)
Can we get a source on that?
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:15 AM on July 1, 2021
Can we get a source on that?
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:15 AM on July 1, 2021
On Unknown Knowns: Slavoj Zizek, "What Rumsfeld Doesn't Know That He Knows About Abu Ghraib" (2004)
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:17 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:17 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm not going to say anything about Rumsfeld. I'm just going to quote an Elvis Costello song for completely unrelated reasons:
Well, I hope I don't die too soonposted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:28 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
I pray the Lord my soul to save
Oh, I'll be a good boy
I'm trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know
I'd like to live long enough to savor:
That's when they finally put you in the ground
I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down
The main thing that US admins have learnt from past misadventures is to better manage the media landscape. Every admin has been doing a better job than the one before in shaping public opinion and in executing its policy goals regardless of validity/jurisdiction/costs related concerns.
posted by asra at 9:02 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by asra at 9:02 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
George Packer in The Atlantic: “How Rumsfeld Deserves to Be Remembered”
Rumsfeld started being wrong within hours of the [September 11] attacks and never stopped. He argued that the attacks proved the need for the missile-defense shield that he’d long advocated. He thought that the American war in Afghanistan meant the end of the Taliban. He thought that the new Afghan government didn’t need the U.S. to stick around for security and support. He thought that the United States should stiff the United Nations, brush off allies, and go it alone. He insisted that al-Qaeda couldn’t operate without a strongman like Saddam. He thought that all the intelligence on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was wrong, except the dire reports that he’d ordered up himself. He reserved his greatest confidence for intelligence obtained through torture. He thought that the State Department and the CIA were full of timorous, ignorant bureaucrats. He thought that America could win wars with computerized weaponry and awesome displays of force.posted by Going To Maine at 10:40 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
facet: cenk sagnic credits him as among "architects of ... Kurdistan's liberation...." (twitter) (i have no information about sagnic beyond following him for possible insight into kurdish issues).
posted by 20 year lurk at 1:38 PM on July 1, 2021
posted by 20 year lurk at 1:38 PM on July 1, 2021
On Unknown Knowns: Slavoj Zizek, "What Rumsfeld Doesn't Know That He Knows About Abu Ghraib" (2004)
I had been pondering the category of unknown knowns, but Zizek was there first? Zizek!
For an organization like the DoD, it seems to me that the knowledge that has not been articulated by the organization's consciousness, if you will, is a scary, Pynchonian underworld.
posted by thelonius at 1:50 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I had been pondering the category of unknown knowns, but Zizek was there first? Zizek!
For an organization like the DoD, it seems to me that the knowledge that has not been articulated by the organization's consciousness, if you will, is a scary, Pynchonian underworld.
posted by thelonius at 1:50 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
thelonius: I had the same experience when I was working on my PhD dissertation.
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:31 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:31 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
well it's about fucking time *
posted by a humble nudibranch at 6:25 PM on July 1, 2021
posted by a humble nudibranch at 6:25 PM on July 1, 2021
Juan Cole - Donald Rumsfeld, Torturer, Serial Liar, Butcher of Baghdad, dies at 88
Rumsfeld wanted to invade Iraq so badly he just made up shit to justify that action.
posted by adamvasco at 4:57 AM on July 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Rumsfeld wanted to invade Iraq so badly he just made up shit to justify that action.
posted by adamvasco at 4:57 AM on July 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Currently, the New York Review of Books has free access to a series of three articles, written at the time Morris' film came out. Don't know how long they'll be open:
2013 article"...we still live in the world that George W. Bush’s “war on terror” made..."
2014 article "What did Donald Rumsfeld know?"
third article, 2014"Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who had insisted that he would gather all control in his hands, refused to understand what was happening in Iraq."
posted by CCBC at 3:26 PM on July 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
2013 article"...we still live in the world that George W. Bush’s “war on terror” made..."
2014 article "What did Donald Rumsfeld know?"
third article, 2014"Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who had insisted that he would gather all control in his hands, refused to understand what was happening in Iraq."
posted by CCBC at 3:26 PM on July 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
good
posted by chance at 10:14 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by chance at 10:14 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Known Known: Donald Rumsfeld Was a War Criminal (Jadaliyya)
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:48 PM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:48 PM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
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The documentary about Rumsfeld on Netflix is fascinating.
posted by Fukiyama at 1:15 PM on June 30, 2021 [31 favorites]