We’re Already Forgetting the Trump Era. His Supporters Won’t Forget Us.
July 3, 2021 9:01 AM Subscribe
We were not superior, we were simply luckier. We were less depressed because we’d had better luck. The machinery of society had operated to our benefit, and we’d been able to do more interesting things. But a lot of us enjoyed feeling contempt for Trump’s followers, just as they enjoyed feeling contempt for us.
Amnesia would be a gift, but Trump voters did too much damage, as did Trump himself. I do not forget the travel bans, the kleptocracy, the ingratiation with murderous neo-Nazis and dictators, the constant assaults on the rights of LGBTQ and people of color to exist, the forest fires making the summers' air toxic to breathe, nor the pandemic that has sickened and killed millions and put the lives of everyone else more or less on hold for nearly two years. I also will not forget Trump voters rioting, killing cops, and waving a Confederate flag through the Capitol, even if judges are letting these criminals go free. Amnesia would be a blessing, a privilege, if only there was not so much damage done that needs fixing.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:54 AM on July 3, 2021 [72 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:54 AM on July 3, 2021 [72 favorites]
They counter with this litany:
We remember the women’s march the day after inauguration.
We remember the 4 years of attacks and impeachments
We remember “not our president” and the “Resistance…”
We remember Maxie Walters telling followers to harass us in restaurants.
We remember the Presidents spokesperson being kicked out a restaurant.
We remember hundreds of Trump supporters physically attacked.
We remember Trump supporters getting Doxed, and fired from jobs.
We remember riots, and looting
We remember “a comedian” holding up the President’s severed head
We remember a play in Central park paid with public funding, showing the killing of President Trump
We remember Robert de Niro yelling “F" Trump” at the Tony’s and getting a standing ovation.
We remember Nancy Pelosi tearing up the State of the Union Address.
We remember the total in the tank move on the mainstream media
We remember the non-stop and live fact checking on our President and his supporters.
We remember non-stop in your face lies and open cover-ups from the media.
We remember the President and his staff being spied on.
We remember five Senators shot on a ballfield.
We remember every so-called comedy show turn into nothing but Trump hate fest.
We remember 95% negative coverage in the news.
We remember the state governors asking and getting everything they ask for and then blaming Trump for their problems.
We remember a Trump top aid verbally assaulted in two DC restaurants.
We remember people banging on the Supreme Court doors.
We remember that we were called every name in the book for supporting President Trump.
We remember that Hollywood said they would leave after Trump was elected but they stayed.
Yes, many of these aren't accurate. But it's what they "remember."
posted by Rash at 10:02 AM on July 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
We remember the women’s march the day after inauguration.
We remember the 4 years of attacks and impeachments
We remember “not our president” and the “Resistance…”
We remember Maxie Walters telling followers to harass us in restaurants.
We remember the Presidents spokesperson being kicked out a restaurant.
We remember hundreds of Trump supporters physically attacked.
We remember Trump supporters getting Doxed, and fired from jobs.
We remember riots, and looting
We remember “a comedian” holding up the President’s severed head
We remember a play in Central park paid with public funding, showing the killing of President Trump
We remember Robert de Niro yelling “F" Trump” at the Tony’s and getting a standing ovation.
We remember Nancy Pelosi tearing up the State of the Union Address.
We remember the total in the tank move on the mainstream media
We remember the non-stop and live fact checking on our President and his supporters.
We remember non-stop in your face lies and open cover-ups from the media.
We remember the President and his staff being spied on.
We remember five Senators shot on a ballfield.
We remember every so-called comedy show turn into nothing but Trump hate fest.
We remember 95% negative coverage in the news.
We remember the state governors asking and getting everything they ask for and then blaming Trump for their problems.
We remember a Trump top aid verbally assaulted in two DC restaurants.
We remember people banging on the Supreme Court doors.
We remember that we were called every name in the book for supporting President Trump.
We remember that Hollywood said they would leave after Trump was elected but they stayed.
Yes, many of these aren't accurate. But it's what they "remember."
posted by Rash at 10:02 AM on July 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
Just to get it out of the way, Wallace Shawn is a long time essayist, playwright and socialist, not just the "inconceivable" guy...
Not to mention the Grand Negus who dined with Andre.
posted by y2karl at 10:03 AM on July 3, 2021 [35 favorites]
Not to mention the Grand Negus who dined with Andre.
posted by y2karl at 10:03 AM on July 3, 2021 [35 favorites]
I don't blame people for wanting to forget the attempted coup, or downgrade it to a "riot" or any other nice little euphemism for it. But we forget it to our peril.
Unfortunately, it looks like the "never mind" caucus is getting what they want after their ersatz Beer Hall Putsch. I just don't think it's going to be ten whole years before the monster that animated the Trumpist right gains unassailable power. Every American needs to prepare for the likely outcome: a one party state.
posted by tclark at 10:04 AM on July 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
Unfortunately, it looks like the "never mind" caucus is getting what they want after their ersatz Beer Hall Putsch. I just don't think it's going to be ten whole years before the monster that animated the Trumpist right gains unassailable power. Every American needs to prepare for the likely outcome: a one party state.
posted by tclark at 10:04 AM on July 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
I certainly don’t enjoy it; it makes me sick to my stomach.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:35 AM on July 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:35 AM on July 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
What you get in life is luck, what you do with it is choice.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:43 AM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:43 AM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
With the sense of inevitability of a permanent Republican victory (them already having the numbers given gerrymandering, Manchin vetoing any action that could improve things), and the expected firestorm of vengeance for actual and perceived slights that will be unleashed the moment they have power, I'm wondering how many liberal/progressive Americans are starting to consider ways they could move abroad before the SHTF; looking into Canadian visas, or European citizenships they may be entitled to, or teaching English in Asia or similar.
posted by acb at 11:28 AM on July 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by acb at 11:28 AM on July 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
We've already been through all that, since the 'w' era. Emigration is impossible, unless you can somehow finagle a work visa; and political/cultural refugees from the USA won't be welcome. Stay, vote, and fight!
posted by Rash at 11:40 AM on July 3, 2021 [36 favorites]
posted by Rash at 11:40 AM on July 3, 2021 [36 favorites]
Forgetting the Trump era? Folks, we’re still deep in the middle of it. Trump was just a catalyst. Everything we saw unleashed over the last four years has been boiling just under the surface for decades. Trump was just the valve through which it could all finally be released. Dude could retire to a secret island tomorrow and never be heard from again and this crap will still be with us, being stirred and stoked by new, even worse, Trumps.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:49 AM on July 3, 2021 [67 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:49 AM on July 3, 2021 [67 favorites]
In the W era, there was less of a sense of doom; yes, the next four years would suck, but then the pendulum would swing back, and as awful as the Republicans were, they believed in the democratic process (with its American provisos such as the electoral college), or at least purported to do so when in public. Now, the gloves are off, and the Republicans are open about moving to extinguish meaningful elections and govern forever, describe liberals in Biblical language as an abomination and actively put literal Nazi dogwhistles into their messaging (1488s here, SS runes there, and so on). It does look like more than a quantitative difference.
posted by acb at 11:50 AM on July 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by acb at 11:50 AM on July 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
What was and remains extremely surprising is that such a large number of people who had very little money and who were even quite desperate about money formed an attachment to Trump that was deeper, stronger, and more passionate than the attachment that any group of comparable size had formed toward any American leader since the end of World War II.
That wasn't surprising to me at all. Those people have been fucked over by the elites and ignored by both Democratic and Republican politicians for decades of growing income inequality. Trump acknowledged and spoke to them, and they listened. One of the biggest tragedies of Trump is that they were marks that he didn't give a shit about.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:53 AM on July 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
That wasn't surprising to me at all. Those people have been fucked over by the elites and ignored by both Democratic and Republican politicians for decades of growing income inequality. Trump acknowledged and spoke to them, and they listened. One of the biggest tragedies of Trump is that they were marks that he didn't give a shit about.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:53 AM on July 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
> Emigration is impossible, unless you can somehow finagle a work visa
This is what I've been finding for the last few years as I casually attempt to research an escape route in my spare time remaining after working a full-time hourly-wage job and living-all-alone survival chores.
posted by glonous keming at 11:56 AM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
This is what I've been finding for the last few years as I casually attempt to research an escape route in my spare time remaining after working a full-time hourly-wage job and living-all-alone survival chores.
posted by glonous keming at 11:56 AM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
> Emigration is impossible, unless you can somehow finagle a work visa
This is what I've been finding for the last few years as I casually attempt to research an escape route in my spare time remaining after working a full-time hourly-wage job and living-all-alone survival chores.
yeah I pretty quickly determined no country wants me unless I'm willing to go farm mushrooms in Canada, which, y'know, I thought about
staying & fighting doesn't seem entirely off the table as an option yet
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:00 PM on July 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is what I've been finding for the last few years as I casually attempt to research an escape route in my spare time remaining after working a full-time hourly-wage job and living-all-alone survival chores.
yeah I pretty quickly determined no country wants me unless I'm willing to go farm mushrooms in Canada, which, y'know, I thought about
staying & fighting doesn't seem entirely off the table as an option yet
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:00 PM on July 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
While I did read the whole thing, I was really annoyed, because it was yet another White Working Class apology.
Every single trumpist I know is an upper middle class suburban racist. They vote for Trump because they are racist and they are scared as f... of the demographic changes that are happening.
The statistics support my personal experience and the whole WWC thing is a huge lie. The real working class voted for Hillary in 2016 and for Joe in 2020.
With that off my chest, I might be interested in a discussion of how the Democratic party can turn at least some of those scared white people.
posted by mumimor at 12:03 PM on July 3, 2021 [86 favorites]
Every single trumpist I know is an upper middle class suburban racist. They vote for Trump because they are racist and they are scared as f... of the demographic changes that are happening.
The statistics support my personal experience and the whole WWC thing is a huge lie. The real working class voted for Hillary in 2016 and for Joe in 2020.
With that off my chest, I might be interested in a discussion of how the Democratic party can turn at least some of those scared white people.
posted by mumimor at 12:03 PM on July 3, 2021 [86 favorites]
Some of us live in the south and no matter how much we’d like to forget, we have our noses rubbed in the Trump years on daily basis. At this point, some of us are just trying to survive without the crippling depression of knowing it’s not over by a long shot. If I could leave the south, let alone the country, I would but it’s just not going to happen so I see every day as a gift and continue doing what I can to make a difference. And, If I’m being honest, crap like this makes me feel like when civil war 2.0 comes that many of the liberal elites in the NE and West will happily sacrifice those of us doing the actual fighting on the front lines of the culture war.
posted by photoslob at 12:40 PM on July 3, 2021 [26 favorites]
posted by photoslob at 12:40 PM on July 3, 2021 [26 favorites]
Casting the educated and not the rich as "elites" has been a conscious move by the rich elite.
I think the culture was more integrated earlier. Think of how Bill Clinton embodied traits we associate with both Trump and Obama. He was highly educated; he didn't just spend time in schools and pay for others to take his exams like Trump. Bill Clinton could meet famous authors and have extemporaneous conversations on the details of their novels. Yet he was also having fun living large and skirted rules. Obama couldn't get away with that.
Besides the racism, Trump supporters are not given enough blame because they are seen not to have agency, are seen to be the victims of circumstances. I wonder how much they couldn't afford education or simply didn't value it, because they had short attention spans, wanted to get rich quick, and had no interest in careful study and learning details.
posted by Schmucko at 12:50 PM on July 3, 2021 [22 favorites]
I think the culture was more integrated earlier. Think of how Bill Clinton embodied traits we associate with both Trump and Obama. He was highly educated; he didn't just spend time in schools and pay for others to take his exams like Trump. Bill Clinton could meet famous authors and have extemporaneous conversations on the details of their novels. Yet he was also having fun living large and skirted rules. Obama couldn't get away with that.
Besides the racism, Trump supporters are not given enough blame because they are seen not to have agency, are seen to be the victims of circumstances. I wonder how much they couldn't afford education or simply didn't value it, because they had short attention spans, wanted to get rich quick, and had no interest in careful study and learning details.
posted by Schmucko at 12:50 PM on July 3, 2021 [22 favorites]
Every single trumpist I know is an upper middle class suburban racist. They vote for Trump because they are racist and they are scared as f... of the demographic changes that are happening.
I heard a while back (pretty sure it was Amanpour + Company) that so far the main unifying concern of the geniuses who stormed the capitol building on Jan-6 has proven to be belief in some variant or other of Replacement Theory
a white nationalist[3] conspiracy theory[4][5][6] which states that, with the complicity or cooperation of "replacist" elites,[a][4][7] the white French population—as well as white European populations at large—is being demographically and culturally replaced with non-European peoples—specifically Arab, Berber, South Asian and sub-Saharan Muslim populations—through mass migration, demographic growth and a European drop in the birth rate.[4][8][9][11][12]
From the USA part:
In 2017, white supremacist protesters at the Unite The Right Rally in Charlottesville, Virginia used slogans that alluded to similar ideas of ethnic replacement,[146] such as "You will not replace us" and "Jews will not replace us".[147][148]
So the most efficient way out of this mess would seem to be focusing on neutralizing the f***ing theory, annoying as many of its adherents and proselytizers may be.
posted by philip-random at 12:52 PM on July 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
I heard a while back (pretty sure it was Amanpour + Company) that so far the main unifying concern of the geniuses who stormed the capitol building on Jan-6 has proven to be belief in some variant or other of Replacement Theory
a white nationalist[3] conspiracy theory[4][5][6] which states that, with the complicity or cooperation of "replacist" elites,[a][4][7] the white French population—as well as white European populations at large—is being demographically and culturally replaced with non-European peoples—specifically Arab, Berber, South Asian and sub-Saharan Muslim populations—through mass migration, demographic growth and a European drop in the birth rate.[4][8][9][11][12]
From the USA part:
In 2017, white supremacist protesters at the Unite The Right Rally in Charlottesville, Virginia used slogans that alluded to similar ideas of ethnic replacement,[146] such as "You will not replace us" and "Jews will not replace us".[147][148]
So the most efficient way out of this mess would seem to be focusing on neutralizing the f***ing theory, annoying as many of its adherents and proselytizers may be.
posted by philip-random at 12:52 PM on July 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
Every single trumpist I know is an upper middle class suburban racist.
I remember post-event photos of the rioters sitting in polished hotel lobbies in Trump regalia, celebrating with each other. I remember some of those rioters going to the riot in expensive paramilitary cosplay. I remember pictures of rioters being non-violently arrested in front of their nice middle-class homes, a shiny, brand-new pickup truck sitting in the driveway. I remember reading about judges giving leave to rioters to head off to nice vacations outside the country, because their detainment would otherwise interfere with their travel. A lot of Trumpers are wealthy and got wealthier off of Trump's tax cuts and deadly grifting over the pandemic. We got to see some of them on January 6, 2021.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:53 PM on July 3, 2021 [48 favorites]
I remember post-event photos of the rioters sitting in polished hotel lobbies in Trump regalia, celebrating with each other. I remember some of those rioters going to the riot in expensive paramilitary cosplay. I remember pictures of rioters being non-violently arrested in front of their nice middle-class homes, a shiny, brand-new pickup truck sitting in the driveway. I remember reading about judges giving leave to rioters to head off to nice vacations outside the country, because their detainment would otherwise interfere with their travel. A lot of Trumpers are wealthy and got wealthier off of Trump's tax cuts and deadly grifting over the pandemic. We got to see some of them on January 6, 2021.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:53 PM on July 3, 2021 [48 favorites]
His not-well-educated followers probably didn’t know any members of the elite, had never met any members of the elite. They knew what they’d seen of them on their computer screens and their television screens. But strangely, just as there is an economic web that links together every person in a given country, from the poorest to the richest, there is also an invisible web of emotion that enables a struggling truck driver in Idaho to resent a Syrian immigrant in Michigan whom he’s never met and to feel shamed and diminished by a prosperous corporate executive in New York City whom he’s never met. And so millions of followers of Donald Trump could feel humiliated by the imagined contempt that they felt flowing down in their direction through this invisible web from the same well-educated people that Trump had sat with at dinner parties a thousand times.
Uh huh. Sure. 'Cause when I think "elite", I think Syrian immigrant.
The amazing political paradox that the United States faces at the moment is that an enormous number of people of color, many of whom are objectively poorer and much worse off than most of Trump’s supporters, have joined up with the minority of whites who dislike Trump to form a slim majority of Americans who apparently believe in the current American political system, but at the same time there now exists a staggering number of white people in the country—should we make a guess based on current polls and say 50 million out of Trump’s 74 million voters?—who are shockingly alienated from the whole American game, utterly indifferent to the prevailing political setup, with its elections, its Constitution, and its three branches of government, and absolutely delighted to follow a “leader” who attractively performs the part of a rebel but who also may happen to be mentally ill.
And also happens to not be a rebel in the sense of not changing any established power structures, but rather further entrenching them. But hey, back to the start of the paragraph. Maybe now at this point in the essay we could deal with the issue that many Trump supporters would also classify the people of color who are, as noted, objectively worse off, but who supported Democratic candidates as "elite", at least for political purposes? No? Not checking that your definition of "elite" coincides with the definition used by the people you're trying to make excuses for seems to be a bit of a gap in the reasoning of this essay.
Maybe that happens later? That's as far as I got, though. Rehashed tropes from five years ago; not the best of the web by a long shot.
posted by eviemath at 1:11 PM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Uh huh. Sure. 'Cause when I think "elite", I think Syrian immigrant.
The amazing political paradox that the United States faces at the moment is that an enormous number of people of color, many of whom are objectively poorer and much worse off than most of Trump’s supporters, have joined up with the minority of whites who dislike Trump to form a slim majority of Americans who apparently believe in the current American political system, but at the same time there now exists a staggering number of white people in the country—should we make a guess based on current polls and say 50 million out of Trump’s 74 million voters?—who are shockingly alienated from the whole American game, utterly indifferent to the prevailing political setup, with its elections, its Constitution, and its three branches of government, and absolutely delighted to follow a “leader” who attractively performs the part of a rebel but who also may happen to be mentally ill.
And also happens to not be a rebel in the sense of not changing any established power structures, but rather further entrenching them. But hey, back to the start of the paragraph. Maybe now at this point in the essay we could deal with the issue that many Trump supporters would also classify the people of color who are, as noted, objectively worse off, but who supported Democratic candidates as "elite", at least for political purposes? No? Not checking that your definition of "elite" coincides with the definition used by the people you're trying to make excuses for seems to be a bit of a gap in the reasoning of this essay.
Maybe that happens later? That's as far as I got, though. Rehashed tropes from five years ago; not the best of the web by a long shot.
posted by eviemath at 1:11 PM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I think we would all do well to stop using “working class” as a euphemism for “people with zero class who can never seem to get enough money.”
I mean, it wasn’t nice (or particularly accurate) to call them the nouveau riches, either, but at least it didn’t conflate elective moral poverty with the much-harsher material kind.
“Working class” already has a job describing people who bust their asses and barely make ends meet. Let’s stop forcing the term into unpaid overtime.
(“Elites” as shorthand for “people who believe enough science to wash their hands after they use a toilet” has also bugged me since the Dubya days, but I’m trying to pick my battles.)
posted by armeowda at 1:16 PM on July 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
I mean, it wasn’t nice (or particularly accurate) to call them the nouveau riches, either, but at least it didn’t conflate elective moral poverty with the much-harsher material kind.
“Working class” already has a job describing people who bust their asses and barely make ends meet. Let’s stop forcing the term into unpaid overtime.
(“Elites” as shorthand for “people who believe enough science to wash their hands after they use a toilet” has also bugged me since the Dubya days, but I’m trying to pick my battles.)
posted by armeowda at 1:16 PM on July 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
Those folks certainly know how to hold a grudge. Many of them are still fighting and litigating a war they lost over a century and a half ago. I wouldn't be expecting them to forget this quickly either. Might be a Jacksonian thing...
posted by jim in austin at 1:25 PM on July 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 1:25 PM on July 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
A president is supposed to be a unifying force, either unifying his party to win the election, or unifying the nation to achieve greatness.
Trumpie is a divider and a fear-monger. He placated his core audience by appealing to their prejudices and fear.
posted by kschang at 1:27 PM on July 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Trumpie is a divider and a fear-monger. He placated his core audience by appealing to their prejudices and fear.
posted by kschang at 1:27 PM on July 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
that article was a classist piece of garbage - more middle class and low upper middle class people are for trump than lower - also, as inconceivable as it might be to one of the elite, many of these people are HAPPY with their place in life and think the rest of the country is trying to take that happiness away from them
46 years ago, i graduated from high school with a bunch of these people many of whom were cruel and thoughtless towards people, or indifferent towards the targets the cruel chose
it doesn't surprise me that many of them are trump supporters - in fact, there's a billboard just out of town in front of a township hall that claims children are 50 times more likely to die from the vaccine than they are covid, which is rank bullshit
as they perceive their position worsening, the bullshit and hero worship will increase - and the cruelty
and those who make less money than them will not only have to continue working for these awful people, but they'll also get blamed for their bosses' political preferences by an intellectual elite who only looks at them to throw words at
posted by pyramid termite at 1:47 PM on July 3, 2021 [31 favorites]
46 years ago, i graduated from high school with a bunch of these people many of whom were cruel and thoughtless towards people, or indifferent towards the targets the cruel chose
it doesn't surprise me that many of them are trump supporters - in fact, there's a billboard just out of town in front of a township hall that claims children are 50 times more likely to die from the vaccine than they are covid, which is rank bullshit
as they perceive their position worsening, the bullshit and hero worship will increase - and the cruelty
and those who make less money than them will not only have to continue working for these awful people, but they'll also get blamed for their bosses' political preferences by an intellectual elite who only looks at them to throw words at
posted by pyramid termite at 1:47 PM on July 3, 2021 [31 favorites]
They counter with this litany....
....And we can counter back just about all of these points on the litany point-for-point:
We remember the women’s march the day after inauguration.
And we remember the Tea Party protests shortly after Obama took office.
We remember the 4 years of attacks and impeachments
And we remember the eight years of attacks which often focused on the president's race.
We remember “not our president” and the “Resistance…”
And we "Obama Bin Lyin'" and the signs calling for Obama's impeachment.
We remember the Presidents spokesperson being kicked out a restaurant.
And we remember Senators Barney Frank being called the f-word and John Lewis being called the N-word during Tea Party protests.
We remember “a comedian” holding up the President’s severed head
And we remember nooses being brought to protests in front of the White House.
We remember Nancy Pelosi tearing up the State of the Union Address.
And we remember Rep. Joe Wilson calling Obama a liar during the State of the Union Address.
We remember the total in the tank move on the mainstream media
We remember the non-stop and live fact checking on our President and his supporters.
We also remember the same on Obama and his supporters.
We remember five Senators shot on a ballfield.
And we remember 28 children shot at an elementary school.
We remember people banging on the Supreme Court doors.
And we remember Mitch McConnell refusing to hear a Supreme Court justice appointed by Obama.
We remember that Hollywood said they would leave after Trump was elected but they stayed.
And we remember a lot of Trump supporters saying that they would leave after Biden was elected, and they stayed. We also remember Romney supporters saying they would leave after Obama was re-elected, and they also stayed.
...So this litany is doing nothing to convince me of anything but the fact that Trump supporters can dish it out but they can't take it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:56 PM on July 3, 2021 [63 favorites]
....And we can counter back just about all of these points on the litany point-for-point:
We remember the women’s march the day after inauguration.
And we remember the Tea Party protests shortly after Obama took office.
We remember the 4 years of attacks and impeachments
And we remember the eight years of attacks which often focused on the president's race.
We remember “not our president” and the “Resistance…”
And we "Obama Bin Lyin'" and the signs calling for Obama's impeachment.
We remember the Presidents spokesperson being kicked out a restaurant.
And we remember Senators Barney Frank being called the f-word and John Lewis being called the N-word during Tea Party protests.
We remember “a comedian” holding up the President’s severed head
And we remember nooses being brought to protests in front of the White House.
We remember Nancy Pelosi tearing up the State of the Union Address.
And we remember Rep. Joe Wilson calling Obama a liar during the State of the Union Address.
We remember the total in the tank move on the mainstream media
We remember the non-stop and live fact checking on our President and his supporters.
We also remember the same on Obama and his supporters.
We remember five Senators shot on a ballfield.
And we remember 28 children shot at an elementary school.
We remember people banging on the Supreme Court doors.
And we remember Mitch McConnell refusing to hear a Supreme Court justice appointed by Obama.
We remember that Hollywood said they would leave after Trump was elected but they stayed.
And we remember a lot of Trump supporters saying that they would leave after Biden was elected, and they stayed. We also remember Romney supporters saying they would leave after Obama was re-elected, and they also stayed.
...So this litany is doing nothing to convince me of anything but the fact that Trump supporters can dish it out but they can't take it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:56 PM on July 3, 2021 [63 favorites]
We remember five Senators shot on a ballfield.
This is the one that gets me. Five people were shot, and one was a congressman (Steve Scalise, R-LA, if you want to look it up.) No Senators.
But how to go about correcting this kind of overt disinformation?
posted by Rash at 2:39 PM on July 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is the one that gets me. Five people were shot, and one was a congressman (Steve Scalise, R-LA, if you want to look it up.) No Senators.
But how to go about correcting this kind of overt disinformation?
posted by Rash at 2:39 PM on July 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
We've been through this wearying, glib attempt at reducing trumpism to just economic factors so many times now. Can we just stop. There were obviously more and deeper forces at work and that includes especially a malignant media environment, not helped by a lack of real progressive options.
But yes. Hell no, never forget. Thank you for that great rebuttal list also, EmpressCallipygos.
posted by blue shadows at 2:40 PM on July 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
But yes. Hell no, never forget. Thank you for that great rebuttal list also, EmpressCallipygos.
posted by blue shadows at 2:40 PM on July 3, 2021 [11 favorites]
But how to go about correcting this kind of overt disinformation?
We can't, as overt disinformation has been relabeled, alternative facts. And then it's just a shouting contest seeing who can say, "no, you're wrong!" the loudest. The truth is rarely the most attractive choice to people, since it's not a guarantee truth is self-serving.
posted by alex_skazat at 3:10 PM on July 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
We can't, as overt disinformation has been relabeled, alternative facts. And then it's just a shouting contest seeing who can say, "no, you're wrong!" the loudest. The truth is rarely the most attractive choice to people, since it's not a guarantee truth is self-serving.
posted by alex_skazat at 3:10 PM on July 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
I didn't read this essay as exonerating Trump supporters. I read it as aimed at liberal elites who can't see our own role in creating and reinforcing the conditions of trumpism. If the essay has a weakness for me it's the closing where he over emphasises the importance of Trump voters in specific moving forward. If he's suggesting we should cater to them, then I oppose that view. But the bulk of the essay is focused on the smug and class-comfortable segment of the left, a body that many of us here on this website were born into, and that rightfully decries Trumpism, but selfishly refuses to make material changes in the world that would head the next Trump off at the pass.
posted by latkes at 3:17 PM on July 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by latkes at 3:17 PM on July 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
This recent podcast about the history of liberalism (through a lens of the author's recent book on the history of The Economist magazine) has got me thinking a lot about what liberalism (trumpism's opposite, in certain respects) is and isn't.
posted by latkes at 3:25 PM on July 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 3:25 PM on July 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
It’s hardly surprising that a lot of people with money were fans of Donald Trump. What was and remains extremely surprising is that such a large number of people who had very little money and who were even quite desperate about money formed an attachment to Trump that was deeper, stronger, and more passionate than the attachment that any group of comparable size had formed toward any American leader since the end of World War II. Whether they were unassuming clerks selling greeting cards in stationary stores or angry unemployed factory workers, these “not well-educated” people loved Donald Trump.
Okay but... the links he put into his own argument in this paragraph don't support this claim. He links to this article which says:
"Let’s start with the data. According to exit polls, Hillary Clinton won by 12 points among voters making less than $30,000 a year—53% to Trump’s 41% —and by 9 points among people making between $30,000 and $49,999. Trump’s support was the inverse. He won every group making $50,000 or more—albeit by smaller margins.
This is consistent with analysis of exit polls from the primary, which found that the median household income of Trump voters—about $72,000—was significantly higher than the median household income of the country as a whole—about $56,000. It was also higher than that of the average Clinton and Sanders voters—about $61,000 each.
Even among white voters—who were more likely to support Trump than other groups—Trump did better among middle income white voters than low-income ones. And a closer look reveals that the swing towards Trump was a lot bigger based on education, rather than income."
The education angle might swing, but how is he claiming the money angle when his own link doesn't say that?
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:29 PM on July 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
Okay but... the links he put into his own argument in this paragraph don't support this claim. He links to this article which says:
"Let’s start with the data. According to exit polls, Hillary Clinton won by 12 points among voters making less than $30,000 a year—53% to Trump’s 41% —and by 9 points among people making between $30,000 and $49,999. Trump’s support was the inverse. He won every group making $50,000 or more—albeit by smaller margins.
This is consistent with analysis of exit polls from the primary, which found that the median household income of Trump voters—about $72,000—was significantly higher than the median household income of the country as a whole—about $56,000. It was also higher than that of the average Clinton and Sanders voters—about $61,000 each.
Even among white voters—who were more likely to support Trump than other groups—Trump did better among middle income white voters than low-income ones. And a closer look reveals that the swing towards Trump was a lot bigger based on education, rather than income."
The education angle might swing, but how is he claiming the money angle when his own link doesn't say that?
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:29 PM on July 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
The fact that 74 million people just voted for Trump is something to take seriously. If we want to make a more just, safe, compassionate world, our plans should include a way to change conditions such that 74 million people don't make that kind of choice in the future.
posted by latkes at 3:35 PM on July 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by latkes at 3:35 PM on July 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Given that his lackeys are still in congress it sure as fuck isn't over.
posted by brujita at 3:37 PM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by brujita at 3:37 PM on July 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I am so baffled by the idea that Trump supporters are somehow more depressed than other people that I cannot engage with the rest of the article.
posted by LindsayIrene at 3:48 PM on July 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 3:48 PM on July 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
Vaguely relevant here, I guess, a Twitter thread yesterday elaborated on the conclusions in Mason, L., Wronski, J., & Kane, J. (2021), "Activating Animus: The Uniquely Social Roots of Trump Support," American Political Science Review, 1-9, which emphasizes something pretty basic: "This means that there is a faction in American politics that has moved from party to party, can be recruited from either party, and responds especially well to hatred of marginalized groups ... they are not loyal to a party - they are loyal to white Christian domination." I don't really know much about this kind of research, but this paper seems to be based on these datasets, which cover some economic and education-related details that could maybe be tested in the same way.
posted by Wobbuffet at 5:33 PM on July 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 5:33 PM on July 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
Liberals are fighting an idea war, a slogan war, with "nu-uhhh!" And "Well actually..." And "fact check:" when there are studies that show fact checking doesn't really work. It's like Hillary during her campaign telling everyone to read 30 page position papers on her website while Trump just said, "WALL". It took a global pandemic AND a terrible presidency to beat Trump and even that was closer than it should've been.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 6:21 PM on July 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 6:21 PM on July 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
Americans (and not just Americans, but we are really good at this), as a general rule, do not become politically conscious, politically involved or enthusiastic voters unless they feel personally affected by what's going on. Either positively (if I vote for X, I and/or family, friends, groups that I support will get more power, more influence, more money, a better job, more civil rights, a great wrong will be righted, etc.) or the negatively (if Y wins, I will lose some/all of the above OR people that I strongly dislike will gain that).
Hence why "the system is broken and needs to change" has resonated strongly in several elections in a row, whether the Trumpulist "THEY have stolen everything from your rightful ownership and WE are going to take it back" shotgun-blast approach, the "WE need to radically change the system for the good of all" (Sanders) approach, or simply HOPE AND CHANGE as a slogan has been its primary form.
The last election was not a ringing endorsement of Joe Biden and his ideals; it was a simple concept, Coronate Emperor Trump vs. Stop Trump No Matter What. There are people who believe that a simple transition back towards the status quo -- no more angry tweetstorms, lowering COVID rates, lower unemployment, and so on -- will be enough to declare Biden a success and increase margins in Congress next year.
Me... I have my doubts.
posted by delfin at 6:43 PM on July 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Hence why "the system is broken and needs to change" has resonated strongly in several elections in a row, whether the Trumpulist "THEY have stolen everything from your rightful ownership and WE are going to take it back" shotgun-blast approach, the "WE need to radically change the system for the good of all" (Sanders) approach, or simply HOPE AND CHANGE as a slogan has been its primary form.
The last election was not a ringing endorsement of Joe Biden and his ideals; it was a simple concept, Coronate Emperor Trump vs. Stop Trump No Matter What. There are people who believe that a simple transition back towards the status quo -- no more angry tweetstorms, lowering COVID rates, lower unemployment, and so on -- will be enough to declare Biden a success and increase margins in Congress next year.
Me... I have my doubts.
posted by delfin at 6:43 PM on July 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
It took a global pandemic AND a terrible presidency to beat Trump and even that was closer than it should've been.
That's a scary part, for sure. His acolyte Senators and Representatives are still in office, still even after openly fomenting sedition, over and over again — usually a crime that involves ten years in prison and the loss of any right to hold office again in the United States. None of us have forgotten. It is that these fuckers are still in power, and still breaking things.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:04 PM on July 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
That's a scary part, for sure. His acolyte Senators and Representatives are still in office, still even after openly fomenting sedition, over and over again — usually a crime that involves ten years in prison and the loss of any right to hold office again in the United States. None of us have forgotten. It is that these fuckers are still in power, and still breaking things.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:04 PM on July 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
The 36 QAnon Supporters Running for Congress in 2022
posted by gucci mane at 1:15 AM on July 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 1:15 AM on July 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
I read it as aimed at liberal elites who can't see our own role in creating and reinforcing the conditions of trumpism.
Trump voters are richer than non-Trump voters and the "liberal elite" did not manufacture their unabiding hatred of Black people and non-European immigrants. How much research about the greater racism and greater monetary resources of Trump voters need to come out before people on the left stop spewing this bullshit?
posted by Anonymous at 5:40 AM on July 4, 2021
Trump voters are richer than non-Trump voters and the "liberal elite" did not manufacture their unabiding hatred of Black people and non-European immigrants. How much research about the greater racism and greater monetary resources of Trump voters need to come out before people on the left stop spewing this bullshit?
posted by Anonymous at 5:40 AM on July 4, 2021
I know those realities don't fit with Marxist theory but at a certain point you have to consider facts.
posted by Anonymous at 5:42 AM on July 4, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 5:42 AM on July 4, 2021
Official (i.e. .gov) list of Trump Administration Accomplishments, we may assume signed off on by the man himself. Makes for interesting reading.
posted by BWA at 6:20 AM on July 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by BWA at 6:20 AM on July 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
The fact that 74 million people just voted for Trump is something to take seriously.
Definitely, which is why the proliferation of think pieces by upper middle class white liberals that concern themselves with the (white, but that part often gets left out) working class and their grievances yet fail to address the larger elephant in the room of why their class compatriots voted for Trump in even larger numbers is a problem.
posted by eviemath at 6:20 AM on July 4, 2021 [10 favorites]
Definitely, which is why the proliferation of think pieces by upper middle class white liberals that concern themselves with the (white, but that part often gets left out) working class and their grievances yet fail to address the larger elephant in the room of why their class compatriots voted for Trump in even larger numbers is a problem.
posted by eviemath at 6:20 AM on July 4, 2021 [10 favorites]
Hmm. I am aware of the research. Trump voters scew rich and the revanchist exurb-dwelling petty bourgeois are the ones who stan hardest for Trump (Although this research is about averages so of the millions who support Trump there are of course many poor people too.)
I see folks are mad about the parts of this article that seem to feed into the tropes about working class whites and how the left must cater to their supposedly regressive values or something.
But what interests me in the essay, and in this thread, is the privileged on the ostensible left, and how we leave the door open for Trumpism.
Put a different way: how should we stop Trump now? Just go back to how things were? What is it about how things were, or are, that allowed Trump? For those born into relative ease, do we think the blame lies only outside ourselves? Do we have to make any material changes in our own lives to stop this thread of politics?
posted by latkes at 6:36 AM on July 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
I see folks are mad about the parts of this article that seem to feed into the tropes about working class whites and how the left must cater to their supposedly regressive values or something.
But what interests me in the essay, and in this thread, is the privileged on the ostensible left, and how we leave the door open for Trumpism.
Put a different way: how should we stop Trump now? Just go back to how things were? What is it about how things were, or are, that allowed Trump? For those born into relative ease, do we think the blame lies only outside ourselves? Do we have to make any material changes in our own lives to stop this thread of politics?
posted by latkes at 6:36 AM on July 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
I hate to be a negative Nancy, but yeah – isn't this just another "Economic Anxiety of the White Working Class" article?
That narrative has been thoroughly discredited at this point.
Anyway: Trump supporters put a naked authoritarian, racist, and buffoon in the Oval Office, and spent the next four years cheering him on. Even as he courted white supremacists, encouraged violence against the media and his political opponents, and dehumanized every demographic under the sun (except for straight white Christian conservative men). Even as he praised despots, made a daily mockery of liberal-democratic principles, and stacked the Supreme Court with the clear purpose of undoing decades of progress for women, people of color, and LGBT folks.
Even as he led a violent mob to attack the US Capitol Building, in order to undermine the certification of a democratic election. Even now, as Trump (and his accomplices still in office) purvey toxic and transparent lies about the election (and everything else under the sun).
But isn't it awfully gauche for me to feel contempt for Trump supporters? Won't I think of their feelings?
Fuck that entirely. If people like that aren't appropriate targets of contempt, then what on earth is contempt for? Damn right I feel contempt for them. All decent people should.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:46 AM on July 4, 2021 [29 favorites]
That narrative has been thoroughly discredited at this point.
Anyway: Trump supporters put a naked authoritarian, racist, and buffoon in the Oval Office, and spent the next four years cheering him on. Even as he courted white supremacists, encouraged violence against the media and his political opponents, and dehumanized every demographic under the sun (except for straight white Christian conservative men). Even as he praised despots, made a daily mockery of liberal-democratic principles, and stacked the Supreme Court with the clear purpose of undoing decades of progress for women, people of color, and LGBT folks.
Even as he led a violent mob to attack the US Capitol Building, in order to undermine the certification of a democratic election. Even now, as Trump (and his accomplices still in office) purvey toxic and transparent lies about the election (and everything else under the sun).
But isn't it awfully gauche for me to feel contempt for Trump supporters? Won't I think of their feelings?
Fuck that entirely. If people like that aren't appropriate targets of contempt, then what on earth is contempt for? Damn right I feel contempt for them. All decent people should.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:46 AM on July 4, 2021 [29 favorites]
potato: It does read like a literate, intelligent, thoughtful rehash of the same economic anxiety argument. Which is to say: literate, intelligent, thoughtful but very very wrong.
posted by Justinian at 6:47 AM on July 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 6:47 AM on July 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
But what interests me in the essay, and in this thread, is the privileged on the ostensible left, and how we leave the door open for Trumpism. Put a different way: how should we stop Trump now?
One option would be to talk to other more economically privileged white people about the role of economically privileged white people in supporting Trumpism, and to write and share think pieces about what causes economically privileged white people to support Trumpism, and what to (ethically) do about that.
Continuing to push away working class leftists with the discredited focus on white working class support for Trump hasn't been an effective strategy for the past several years, and I don't see any reason to expect a sudden change in that respect.
posted by eviemath at 6:56 AM on July 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
One option would be to talk to other more economically privileged white people about the role of economically privileged white people in supporting Trumpism, and to write and share think pieces about what causes economically privileged white people to support Trumpism, and what to (ethically) do about that.
Continuing to push away working class leftists with the discredited focus on white working class support for Trump hasn't been an effective strategy for the past several years, and I don't see any reason to expect a sudden change in that respect.
posted by eviemath at 6:56 AM on July 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
This essay seems to be another in the line of "oh, us economically privileged white liberals need to change - we need to do better by those people over there who are definitely not us." Which is the political equivalent of a fauxpology. Economically privileged white liberals do need to change their behavior, but what they need to look at is how they interact with and enable other economically privileged whites (of all political stripes), and how their everyday lives uphold or retrench the power structures that enabled Trumpism to gain political power in the first place.
posted by eviemath at 7:01 AM on July 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:01 AM on July 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
There may have been a time when we had more contempt for Trumpists than they deserved.
But we've been past that time for quite a while now.
Hopefully they'll never get all the contempt they deserve, because we recognize that giving them that contempt is less important than working to undo the damage they have done.
posted by Brachinus at 7:36 AM on July 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
But we've been past that time for quite a while now.
Hopefully they'll never get all the contempt they deserve, because we recognize that giving them that contempt is less important than working to undo the damage they have done.
posted by Brachinus at 7:36 AM on July 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
whynotboth.gif
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 AM on July 4, 2021
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:38 AM on July 4, 2021
latkes: "The fact that 74 million people just voted for Trump is something to take seriously. If we want to make a more just, safe, compassionate world, our plans should include a way to change conditions such that 74 million people don't make that kind of choice in the future."
So what conditions do we change to make these people happy? Suppress the votes of black voters more? Discriminate against LGBT people more? Restrict women's health choices more? Erase the history of minorities in America more? Destroy the environment faster? What will bring them back to the fold?
posted by octothorpe at 8:30 AM on July 4, 2021 [17 favorites]
So what conditions do we change to make these people happy? Suppress the votes of black voters more? Discriminate against LGBT people more? Restrict women's health choices more? Erase the history of minorities in America more? Destroy the environment faster? What will bring them back to the fold?
posted by octothorpe at 8:30 AM on July 4, 2021 [17 favorites]
Right, the condition that is "making" them make this choice is that the United States is either becoming a true multiracial democracy or it's becoming a minority-ruled pseudo-democracy. And they aren't on the side of the multiracial bit.
It's amazing to me that even now in 2021 there are people who think the racists will stop racisting if we just treat them more nicely and try to give them stuff. They don't care about stuff, they want white supremacy.
posted by Justinian at 8:39 AM on July 4, 2021 [17 favorites]
It's amazing to me that even now in 2021 there are people who think the racists will stop racisting if we just treat them more nicely and try to give them stuff. They don't care about stuff, they want white supremacy.
posted by Justinian at 8:39 AM on July 4, 2021 [17 favorites]
Put a different way: how should we stop Trump now? Just go back to how things were? What is it about how things were, or are, that allowed Trump? For those born into relative ease, do we think the blame lies only outside ourselves? Do we have to make any material changes in our own lives to stop this thread of politics?
Well to begin with, the analysis has to be correct. If you build your theory on false premises, like this writer and many other authors have done, then your theory, your solution will be wrong.
Trumpists mostly have a completely different mindset and approach than people who post on MetaFilter. Far the most are white, middle class, poorly educated and afraid of social change and other things they see on the TV and don't understand. They don't like facts, they like feelings. They don't mind lies if those lies are emotionally true. And they are racist. Look at the insurrectionists. People who went on private planes to D.C. A man whose mother demanded he should have organic, vegan food in jail, and got it. People who felt entitled to storm the Capitol building and trash it. Those are not the white working class.
I think the pundits and journalists and politicians who keep rehashing the WWC Trump voter theory share a lot of the "values" and fears of the Trump voters. They too are scared of social changes and things they don't understand, and they are searching for a way to legitimatize their feelings by projecting them onto someone more victim-like. They too, are racist.
I think contempt is a good thing, because shame is what keeps some people back from voting for racist politicians and doing racist things. I believe shame is what got Derek Chauvin convicted. The judge and jury couldn't go on with business as usual. But it was clear that Chauvin thought they could and would, both when he murdered a man and when he sat in the court room during the trial, smirking.
That is why it is so important that Trump, his minions and all the insurrections are indicted and convicted. Even though they will play victims and pretend they are being politically prosecuted, some subset of Trump voters will realize that Trump and his family are indeed criminals. And it will be shameful.
But on the more general level I think it is going to get worse before it gets better. We can't win these people over with empathy, that's for sure, so we will have to wait till they die out or climb back into their holes. I hope I'm wrong.
Happy Fourth of July!
posted by mumimor at 8:40 AM on July 4, 2021 [16 favorites]
Well to begin with, the analysis has to be correct. If you build your theory on false premises, like this writer and many other authors have done, then your theory, your solution will be wrong.
Trumpists mostly have a completely different mindset and approach than people who post on MetaFilter. Far the most are white, middle class, poorly educated and afraid of social change and other things they see on the TV and don't understand. They don't like facts, they like feelings. They don't mind lies if those lies are emotionally true. And they are racist. Look at the insurrectionists. People who went on private planes to D.C. A man whose mother demanded he should have organic, vegan food in jail, and got it. People who felt entitled to storm the Capitol building and trash it. Those are not the white working class.
I think the pundits and journalists and politicians who keep rehashing the WWC Trump voter theory share a lot of the "values" and fears of the Trump voters. They too are scared of social changes and things they don't understand, and they are searching for a way to legitimatize their feelings by projecting them onto someone more victim-like. They too, are racist.
I think contempt is a good thing, because shame is what keeps some people back from voting for racist politicians and doing racist things. I believe shame is what got Derek Chauvin convicted. The judge and jury couldn't go on with business as usual. But it was clear that Chauvin thought they could and would, both when he murdered a man and when he sat in the court room during the trial, smirking.
That is why it is so important that Trump, his minions and all the insurrections are indicted and convicted. Even though they will play victims and pretend they are being politically prosecuted, some subset of Trump voters will realize that Trump and his family are indeed criminals. And it will be shameful.
But on the more general level I think it is going to get worse before it gets better. We can't win these people over with empathy, that's for sure, so we will have to wait till they die out or climb back into their holes. I hope I'm wrong.
Happy Fourth of July!
posted by mumimor at 8:40 AM on July 4, 2021 [16 favorites]
So what conditions do we change to make these people happy? Suppress the votes of black voters more? Discriminate against LGBT people more? Restrict women's health choices more? Erase the history of minorities in America more? Destroy the environment faster? What will bring them back to the fold?
as I alluded to above, maybe the straw that breaks the ugly f***ing camel's back is Replacement Theory. Absurd as it is, it does seem to be getting rallied around. America's always had racists, homophobes, misogynists, polluters -- what it didn't have until recently it seems was something that was galvanizing so many of them.
posted by philip-random at 8:46 AM on July 4, 2021
as I alluded to above, maybe the straw that breaks the ugly f***ing camel's back is Replacement Theory. Absurd as it is, it does seem to be getting rallied around. America's always had racists, homophobes, misogynists, polluters -- what it didn't have until recently it seems was something that was galvanizing so many of them.
posted by philip-random at 8:46 AM on July 4, 2021
When unhappy schoolchildren are trapped in a classroom with a teacher they can’t stand, they don’t delight in the behavior of the student who gets the highest marks, the one the teacher likes best, the Barack Obama of the class. They delight instead in the antics of the bad kid in the class, the one who dares to defy the teacher, the one who knows exactly how to drive the teacher crazy.
The "teacher they can't stand" is equity. How one could come up with such an analogy without acknowledging the source of the animus is anger about people of color refusing to shut up and stay in the low place MAGAts want them to stay in is intellectually dishonest. Follow through, Shawn, come on.
Also, the idea that no one resented the elites back in the day is patent nonsense.
There are 74 million+ people who believe deeply that there needs to be a hierarchy, and that they need to be on top of it—and they want to be loved by all for it. They resent and loathe anyone they deem lesser standing up for themselves and especially if those people tell them to piss off. I'm reminded of the young black girl I saw on TikTok last month who said, "I don't like white people", then seeing that there were hundreds of clips of white folks having a meltdown over it and calling her racist even when she had clearly said where her dislike came from.
Commenters asked these angry white people why they couldn't see the idiocy of their own contempt of black people yet demanding that black people love them, and getting upset when they don't. No, not one of these clueless fuckers understood their own minds. Not one of them seemed to get that you can't despise people then demand that those same people love you and accept your abuse and contempt. See the similar meltdown over the use of the word "colonizer" by fed-up Indigenous people. As one Indigenous lady at a town meeting I watched said, "You've had 524 years of having your voice heard. That's enough!" And the room went into an uproar of angry white people calling her a racist.
That's abuser gaslighting shit. As someone whose abuser raged out at me when I stood up for myself, I know that very few such people change their beliefs and thoughts that make them abuse others, and they continue to abuse people until they are forced to stop. Maybe Shawn has been lucky enough in life to not know any abusers, but I can tell him that these people aren't going to change their minds or stop attacking us because white leftist elites are nice to them.
posted by droplet at 8:53 AM on July 4, 2021 [18 favorites]
The "teacher they can't stand" is equity. How one could come up with such an analogy without acknowledging the source of the animus is anger about people of color refusing to shut up and stay in the low place MAGAts want them to stay in is intellectually dishonest. Follow through, Shawn, come on.
Also, the idea that no one resented the elites back in the day is patent nonsense.
There are 74 million+ people who believe deeply that there needs to be a hierarchy, and that they need to be on top of it—and they want to be loved by all for it. They resent and loathe anyone they deem lesser standing up for themselves and especially if those people tell them to piss off. I'm reminded of the young black girl I saw on TikTok last month who said, "I don't like white people", then seeing that there were hundreds of clips of white folks having a meltdown over it and calling her racist even when she had clearly said where her dislike came from.
Commenters asked these angry white people why they couldn't see the idiocy of their own contempt of black people yet demanding that black people love them, and getting upset when they don't. No, not one of these clueless fuckers understood their own minds. Not one of them seemed to get that you can't despise people then demand that those same people love you and accept your abuse and contempt. See the similar meltdown over the use of the word "colonizer" by fed-up Indigenous people. As one Indigenous lady at a town meeting I watched said, "You've had 524 years of having your voice heard. That's enough!" And the room went into an uproar of angry white people calling her a racist.
That's abuser gaslighting shit. As someone whose abuser raged out at me when I stood up for myself, I know that very few such people change their beliefs and thoughts that make them abuse others, and they continue to abuse people until they are forced to stop. Maybe Shawn has been lucky enough in life to not know any abusers, but I can tell him that these people aren't going to change their minds or stop attacking us because white leftist elites are nice to them.
posted by droplet at 8:53 AM on July 4, 2021 [18 favorites]
Let's be real, the reason the elites assume these people are working class is because of all the studies that show how being uneducated means you're more likely to be racist/misogynist/generally shitty and selfish.
We know these people are uneducated. But in typical American fashion, because they are successful, because they have money... their lack of education doesn't actually matter. All they really need to succeed in capitalism isn't capital as much as having no fucking soul or empathy for other living things.
The conflation with them being poor absolutely comes from the "uneducated" angle, because the educated elite assume you can't be uneducated if you've got money and are "successful" and not that "successful" just means "fucking sociophath."
And yet these are the same "educated elite" that send their dumbshit kids to Yale or Harvard as legacy admissions and then pay other people to write their term papers for them.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:24 AM on July 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
We know these people are uneducated. But in typical American fashion, because they are successful, because they have money... their lack of education doesn't actually matter. All they really need to succeed in capitalism isn't capital as much as having no fucking soul or empathy for other living things.
The conflation with them being poor absolutely comes from the "uneducated" angle, because the educated elite assume you can't be uneducated if you've got money and are "successful" and not that "successful" just means "fucking sociophath."
And yet these are the same "educated elite" that send their dumbshit kids to Yale or Harvard as legacy admissions and then pay other people to write their term papers for them.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:24 AM on July 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
Like seriously, this is why no matter how many times the "educated elite" absolutely fuck up massively they just get to walk right back on TV, spouting whatever bullshit comes to their mind, because they are a "thought leader."
See whatshisname that got caught jerking it on a Zoom meeting and was re-hired a year later. The real issue is the "elite" aren't anywhere near as educated as they think they are because they're measuring their smarts by how much fucking money they have.
The "educated elite" is just as much of a sockpuppet as "poor uneducated Trump voters."
posted by deadaluspark at 9:28 AM on July 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
See whatshisname that got caught jerking it on a Zoom meeting and was re-hired a year later. The real issue is the "elite" aren't anywhere near as educated as they think they are because they're measuring their smarts by how much fucking money they have.
The "educated elite" is just as much of a sockpuppet as "poor uneducated Trump voters."
posted by deadaluspark at 9:28 AM on July 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
Also, just a thought on "how do we tackle this."
Well, honestly, as gross as it sounds, Trump gave us a roadmap:
Have your candidate say bombastic, hurtful things, but not actually get much done behind the scenes. The GOP managed to so much fuck-nothing for four years they didn't even bother with a new party platform. The point is that you don't actually have to give these racist yahoos what they want, you just have to make them think you are.
Since we know thanks to research linked above (excellent links, Wobbuffet!) that these voters are not restricted to party, but rather target parties why not essentially tell the entire Democratic voting apparatus that we're going to lie through our teeth to capture racist votes, make the racists think they're getting what they want, and then go around improving life for all people, and while the racists lives improve, they will attribute that to the things that the leader is claiming to do but isn't. See Trump's failure with the wall to see it in action. You don't actually have to give them what they want, all you have to do is talk about it a lot.
So no, to those asking if we have to give in to racists to win them over.
It's been proven they are dumb and uneducated. It's time to maybe start using that to our advantage like Trump did. He didn't actually do anything for these voters, either, he didn't even hurt other people as much as they wanted him to. The educated voters will realize that behinds the scenes, things are getting better, even if the leader is saying horrendous shit to capture votes of pure idiocy to keep them in line.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2021
Well, honestly, as gross as it sounds, Trump gave us a roadmap:
Have your candidate say bombastic, hurtful things, but not actually get much done behind the scenes. The GOP managed to so much fuck-nothing for four years they didn't even bother with a new party platform. The point is that you don't actually have to give these racist yahoos what they want, you just have to make them think you are.
Since we know thanks to research linked above (excellent links, Wobbuffet!) that these voters are not restricted to party, but rather target parties why not essentially tell the entire Democratic voting apparatus that we're going to lie through our teeth to capture racist votes, make the racists think they're getting what they want, and then go around improving life for all people, and while the racists lives improve, they will attribute that to the things that the leader is claiming to do but isn't. See Trump's failure with the wall to see it in action. You don't actually have to give them what they want, all you have to do is talk about it a lot.
So no, to those asking if we have to give in to racists to win them over.
It's been proven they are dumb and uneducated. It's time to maybe start using that to our advantage like Trump did. He didn't actually do anything for these voters, either, he didn't even hurt other people as much as they wanted him to. The educated voters will realize that behinds the scenes, things are getting better, even if the leader is saying horrendous shit to capture votes of pure idiocy to keep them in line.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2021
It's unfair to call an armed mob cosplay, because most cosplay scenes have rules about weapon safety and respecting people's property and hard work.
At what point does the Rights hatred of me as a transgender woman deserve contempt?
posted by Jacen at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
At what point does the Rights hatred of me as a transgender woman deserve contempt?
posted by Jacen at 10:23 AM on July 4, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't know if deadaluspark is making a "Modest Proposal", but giving in to racist rhetoric in order to win over racists yet enact counter-racist policy is playing with fire. That's "we can control this Hitler guy" mindset. Trump was itching to turn the George Floyd protests into a bloodbath. He's got this image of "inner cities" burning down and uprising and needing to be disciplined. His followers can tell he's serious and won't accept cheap imitations. He gave them permission to be really racist, Kyle Rittenhouse is a hero to them, and if they could make the 1/6 insurrectionists into heroes they would. Right after the insurrection Trump told the rioters he "loved them". Racist rhetoric empowers racist killer cops like Chauvin.
The problem it seems to me is that the real elites, the rich and corporations, are rightly afraid of left populism, of an Elizabeth Warren or Bernie getting elected and enacting 70% tax brackets again, or a 2% wealth tax. What has to happen is we need hardball to erase all these anti-democratic "voter fraud" justified restrictions to voting, procedures like the filibuster. But Democrats don't really WANT their side to win, because that means the left populists tank the agendas of their rich donors.
What happens when there is a legitimately close election, like the 2000 election, and the Republicans bluster and intimidate through armed mobs? In a legitimately close election with the Democratic nominee further to the left than Biden and the Republican less bat guano insane than Trump, the media may let slide the cheating that Trump tried this time.
posted by Schmucko at 10:44 AM on July 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
The problem it seems to me is that the real elites, the rich and corporations, are rightly afraid of left populism, of an Elizabeth Warren or Bernie getting elected and enacting 70% tax brackets again, or a 2% wealth tax. What has to happen is we need hardball to erase all these anti-democratic "voter fraud" justified restrictions to voting, procedures like the filibuster. But Democrats don't really WANT their side to win, because that means the left populists tank the agendas of their rich donors.
What happens when there is a legitimately close election, like the 2000 election, and the Republicans bluster and intimidate through armed mobs? In a legitimately close election with the Democratic nominee further to the left than Biden and the Republican less bat guano insane than Trump, the media may let slide the cheating that Trump tried this time.
posted by Schmucko at 10:44 AM on July 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
Schmucko, yes, it was more of a "Modest Proposal" type thing and I know it's playing with fire. Really good points about the media being more concerned with making money than actual election fraud.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:53 AM on July 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by deadaluspark at 10:53 AM on July 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
He gave them permission to be really racist, Kyle Rittenhouse is a hero to them, and if they could make the 1/6 insurrectionists into heroes they would.
Not sure about what the left will eventually forget, but depending on what fascists get to follow in his footsteps — terrible people like Cotton, McCarthy, Scalise, Cruz, Hawley, Noem, and Haley — historians will probably never get to forget that Trump gave ugly Americans the gift of acting on their worst impulses, guilt-free.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:40 PM on July 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not sure about what the left will eventually forget, but depending on what fascists get to follow in his footsteps — terrible people like Cotton, McCarthy, Scalise, Cruz, Hawley, Noem, and Haley — historians will probably never get to forget that Trump gave ugly Americans the gift of acting on their worst impulses, guilt-free.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:40 PM on July 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
The 1/6 Insurrectionists are not lionized as heroes because they didn't win the day (and the government). In the meantime, dingdongs are happy to (instead) demonize all those who prevented it from succeeding, whether it is claiming that BLM / Antifa / the FBI / the CIA / the Reverse Vampires infiltrated the Freedom Rally and turned it into a false flag, calling for Mike Pence's execution as a card-carrying traitor (among many others), claiming that its foundational principle (that the election was corrupt and rigged for Biden) is factual, and screaming about the "murder" of Ashli Babbitt, when that "murder" is reduced to a simple question-and-answer:
Q: Who shot Ashli Babbitt?
A: The person who was required to.
posted by delfin at 2:52 PM on July 4, 2021 [7 favorites]
Q: Who shot Ashli Babbitt?
A: The person who was required to.
posted by delfin at 2:52 PM on July 4, 2021 [7 favorites]
Genuinely and without sarcasm, the problem I can't unravel with "the left needs better slogans" is that .... a whole lot of nice white centrists from nice midwest towns, the one I grew up in? The slogan they want to hear is "More teachers for your nice white school district, and we'll shut up about racism and pronouns." I genuinely don't know what else we can try to reach those people without actively hurting the rest of the base.
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:52 PM on July 4, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:52 PM on July 4, 2021 [9 favorites]
The problem begins with the fact that wealthy overlords control all major sources of media and won't permit the Left to be heard, only the milquetoast approximation of Left thought promulgated by docile liberal talking heads in their employ. Meanwhile they give unlimited airtime to fascists and other corporate bootlickers.
As a result the typical citizen isn't just uneducated but misinformed. From right wing stations they are flat out brainwashed that Trump and his ilk are brave heroes of the republic and that any ideas advanced by the left, from socialism to social justice, are pure evil. One the so called opposition side we are generally just reminded of how cartoonishly stupid and venal Trump and his allies are, instead of how abhorrent their fundamental ideas are. That just means when a smarter far right ideologue comes along, the public will be primed to view that person as a reasonable option. In Dune-speak, Trump was the Beast Rabban to a Feyd-Rautha yet to come.
posted by xigxag at 3:07 PM on July 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
As a result the typical citizen isn't just uneducated but misinformed. From right wing stations they are flat out brainwashed that Trump and his ilk are brave heroes of the republic and that any ideas advanced by the left, from socialism to social justice, are pure evil. One the so called opposition side we are generally just reminded of how cartoonishly stupid and venal Trump and his allies are, instead of how abhorrent their fundamental ideas are. That just means when a smarter far right ideologue comes along, the public will be primed to view that person as a reasonable option. In Dune-speak, Trump was the Beast Rabban to a Feyd-Rautha yet to come.
posted by xigxag at 3:07 PM on July 4, 2021 [5 favorites]
The problem begins with the fact that wealthy overlords control all major sources of media and won't permit the Left to be heard, only the milquetoast approximation of Left thought promulgated by docile liberal talking heads in their employ. Meanwhile they give unlimited airtime to fascists and other corporate bootlickers.
I don't know if this incorrect. I do know that the Trumpists and Qanon types are saying pretty much the exact same thing, except of course, skewed their way:
The problem begins with the fact that wealthy reptilian overlords control all major sources of media and won't permit the TRUTH to be heard, only the milquetoast approximation of truth promulgated by docile liberal talking heads in their employ. Meanwhile they give unlimited airtime to neo-Marxists and other mouthpieces of the radical left.
Or something like that.
posted by philip-random at 3:45 PM on July 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't know if this incorrect. I do know that the Trumpists and Qanon types are saying pretty much the exact same thing, except of course, skewed their way:
The problem begins with the fact that wealthy reptilian overlords control all major sources of media and won't permit the TRUTH to be heard, only the milquetoast approximation of truth promulgated by docile liberal talking heads in their employ. Meanwhile they give unlimited airtime to neo-Marxists and other mouthpieces of the radical left.
Or something like that.
posted by philip-random at 3:45 PM on July 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
The center reflexively lurches right and punches left because they view that as the surest route to victory, and because the money factor makes promoting status quo economics and political structure far more lucrative than bucking that system in any way.
The hard right reflexively lurches right and punches left because to them, everyone that is NOT loudly with them is a card-carrying Communist.
posted by delfin at 3:50 PM on July 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
The hard right reflexively lurches right and punches left because to them, everyone that is NOT loudly with them is a card-carrying Communist.
posted by delfin at 3:50 PM on July 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know if this incorrect. I do know that the Trumpists and Qanon types are saying pretty much the exact same thing, except of course, skewed their way:
The most dangerous thing about the Trumpists is that they actively see the corruption that does exist, but use that as an excuse to assume even worse exists, and only the people they have chosen as leaders can be trusted to not be corrupt (Trump).
It's part of why they are so self-assured they aren't wrong. The corruption on display in the world is usually so blatant, it's hard not to see it, but it just makes them think they must be the only ones who can see it happening if nobody is doing anything about it.
Somehow not noting that they always cover for the shitty horrible people in their own lives when they do horrendous hurtful shit. Because when it's their side it's moral and right and can't be corruption because they know deep down they are good Christians.
Yeah we are pretty much flat out fucked as a species.
posted by deadaluspark at 3:53 PM on July 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
The most dangerous thing about the Trumpists is that they actively see the corruption that does exist, but use that as an excuse to assume even worse exists, and only the people they have chosen as leaders can be trusted to not be corrupt (Trump).
It's part of why they are so self-assured they aren't wrong. The corruption on display in the world is usually so blatant, it's hard not to see it, but it just makes them think they must be the only ones who can see it happening if nobody is doing anything about it.
Somehow not noting that they always cover for the shitty horrible people in their own lives when they do horrendous hurtful shit. Because when it's their side it's moral and right and can't be corruption because they know deep down they are good Christians.
Yeah we are pretty much flat out fucked as a species.
posted by deadaluspark at 3:53 PM on July 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
What you get in life is luck, what you do with it is choice.
For real, I mean some animals are more equal than others. Manifest destiny and all that.
posted by Atom Collection at 1:18 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
For real, I mean some animals are more equal than others. Manifest destiny and all that.
posted by Atom Collection at 1:18 AM on July 5, 2021 [1 favorite]
the Trumpists and Qanon types are saying pretty much the exact same thing, except of course, skewed their way:
That's how cooptation as a rhetorical strategy works, yes. It's a slightly more sophisticated version of "Nuh uh, you're being mean to me!"
posted by eviemath at 4:37 AM on July 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
That's how cooptation as a rhetorical strategy works, yes. It's a slightly more sophisticated version of "Nuh uh, you're being mean to me!"
posted by eviemath at 4:37 AM on July 5, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, many of these aren't accurate. But it's what they "remember."
I've been thinking about your list for a spell. It's not about accuracy, to me; even so, that aspect of your list was commented on above in detail by others, so I don't need to go into that.
What remains striking is how your list is almost entirely a checklist of emotional coercion and insecurity, as opposed to a response to actions and decisions that had life-altering consequences for millions of people in the US and around the world.
It's one thing to complain that Hollywood actors promised to leave and didn't, for instance, and well another when you are a naturalized citizen who travels, but the president directs border agents to prevent you from coming back into your country, because you don't have white skin color. It's one thing to complain that a disruptive customer was asked to leave a restaurant, and another when the president sickens millions and kills 600k+ Americans to make a few bucks off of pool cleaner and black-market masks. And so on, and so on.
Whatever differences people have on a political level, it seems insane to me that people would even put these categories of items on the same scale. One has to be severely emotionally stunted to unsee the damage they have wrought, who think their petty, childish grievances are anywhere close to the very real devastation they have caused.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:15 PM on July 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
I've been thinking about your list for a spell. It's not about accuracy, to me; even so, that aspect of your list was commented on above in detail by others, so I don't need to go into that.
What remains striking is how your list is almost entirely a checklist of emotional coercion and insecurity, as opposed to a response to actions and decisions that had life-altering consequences for millions of people in the US and around the world.
It's one thing to complain that Hollywood actors promised to leave and didn't, for instance, and well another when you are a naturalized citizen who travels, but the president directs border agents to prevent you from coming back into your country, because you don't have white skin color. It's one thing to complain that a disruptive customer was asked to leave a restaurant, and another when the president sickens millions and kills 600k+ Americans to make a few bucks off of pool cleaner and black-market masks. And so on, and so on.
Whatever differences people have on a political level, it seems insane to me that people would even put these categories of items on the same scale. One has to be severely emotionally stunted to unsee the damage they have wrought, who think their petty, childish grievances are anywhere close to the very real devastation they have caused.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:15 PM on July 5, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm getting mighty tired of "Look what you made us do!"
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:09 PM on July 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:09 PM on July 5, 2021 [9 favorites]
How and why Loudoun County became the face of the nation’s culture wars (WaPo)
posted by mumimor at 5:02 AM on July 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Fisher, the former School Board member, said he sees a throughline connecting the White resistance he faced as a child when he helped integrate Loudoun’s schools with today’s critics of critical race theory. He recognizes the same arguments about trampled First Amendment rights and the contention that their children are being mistreated.Somehow the angry people fighting imagined threats don't look like white working class to me. They do look a lot like racists, though.
A popular post that circulated on social media following the June 22 School Board meeting and arrest juxtaposes images of White parents screaming at the meeting with White parents protesting the integration of Little Rock Central High School in 1957. “Same energy,” the tweet reads.
“For some reason or another, the same type of voices keep coming back,” Fisher said.
Vanessa Maddox, another longtime Loudoun resident who said she was the first Black woman to serve on the Leesburg Town Council, thinks she knows why they’re back this time.
“Trump!” she said. “When Trump lost, they lost their minds. CRT is their new Trump.”
Maddox said former president Donald Trump’s style of politics appears to have emboldened a segment of the population that had been slumbering. Al Van Huyck, 88, who is White and has owned a farm in the county since 1969, said Trump “unleashed” them.
posted by mumimor at 5:02 AM on July 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
What I disagree with (in this essay, and generally) is the assumption that the rest of us are somehow responsible for the behavior of other adults, an assumption implicit throughout this piece ('this is who the Trump voters are, and they're still around, so what are we going to do about them?'). My answer at this point is simply "fight them, tooth and nail." I'm done with developing more understanding or reading more post-mortems that examine What Actually Happened: an actual insurrection attempt and now fucking brownshirts showing up in Philly on 7/4, this fight is no longer intellectual, and at this point, ideas matter much less than actions.
All of this energy really needs to be spent toward direct, local action right now. Run for open seats on your local school boards and city councils! Attend those meetings and contact your local elected officials frequently, hold them accountable for what they do, not some abstract, vaguely defined group of "Trump supporters". Identify the people in YOUR COMMUNITY who are breaking things for the rest of us, and work to stop them today, now.
Wallace Shawn, and every other well-educated and thoughtful liberal/leftist/non-fascist adult, would help our present situation enormously by finding something to actually do every day to fight the nascent fascists among us, rather than only sharing their precious and important thoughts (like, I sure would appreciate a Wallace Shawn essay titled "His Supporters Won't Forget Us: Meaningful Actions to Fight Ongoing Trumpism"). Thoughtful takes on what's happening now are worth less and less, and become more harmful, each day; thoughtful action must be on our daily to-do lists.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:48 AM on July 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
All of this energy really needs to be spent toward direct, local action right now. Run for open seats on your local school boards and city councils! Attend those meetings and contact your local elected officials frequently, hold them accountable for what they do, not some abstract, vaguely defined group of "Trump supporters". Identify the people in YOUR COMMUNITY who are breaking things for the rest of us, and work to stop them today, now.
Wallace Shawn, and every other well-educated and thoughtful liberal/leftist/non-fascist adult, would help our present situation enormously by finding something to actually do every day to fight the nascent fascists among us, rather than only sharing their precious and important thoughts (like, I sure would appreciate a Wallace Shawn essay titled "His Supporters Won't Forget Us: Meaningful Actions to Fight Ongoing Trumpism"). Thoughtful takes on what's happening now are worth less and less, and become more harmful, each day; thoughtful action must be on our daily to-do lists.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:48 AM on July 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
I don't know about the rest of the article, but that second to last paragraph about The New York Times is spot on.
And that’s the part of the paper that I don’t want them ever to read, because I know very well that the more they know about me, the more they’ll hate me.
That's kind of how I feel when I'm reading it.
posted by riruro at 2:18 PM on July 6, 2021
And that’s the part of the paper that I don’t want them ever to read, because I know very well that the more they know about me, the more they’ll hate me.
That's kind of how I feel when I'm reading it.
posted by riruro at 2:18 PM on July 6, 2021
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posted by latkes at 9:02 AM on July 3, 2021 [38 favorites]