English football’s day of embarrassment
July 13, 2021 7:15 AM Subscribe
You may already have seen reports about ticketless fans breaking into Wembley Stadium for the Euro 2020 final last Sunday – what was initially claimed to be "a small number of people" later turned out to be a "large number" causing "absolute bedlam" – but you will find a lot more disturbing details in this in-depth report by Sports publication The Athletic (non-paywalled version at archive.is).
A brief overview from the opening paragraphs:
A brief overview from the opening paragraphs:
• Thousands of people forcing their way into the stadium without tickets, some of them breaking barricades and storming gates that were reserved for disabled spectators
• Numerous stewards injured and subjected to racial abuse in their attempts to stop those forcing entry
• Fighting inside the stadium, with videos showing one England fan being kicked by others while lying on the ground
• England players’ family members being attacked and subjected to racial abuse, while others had to fight off efforts to have their tickets or phones snatched from their hands
• The VIP section so overrun with ticketless fans that some family members, including Italy coach Roberto Mancini’s son Andrea, had to sit on the steps with his seat taken
• Numerous allegations of fans openly snorting cocaine
• Breaches of the COVID-19 checkpoints, allowing fans to enter the stadium without showing proof of a negative test, and the infiltration of the Italian supporters’ bio-secure “bubble”
Is it really going to interfere with 2030? I mean, FIFA appears to give the hosting rights to whoever bribes them the most, thus 2022 Qatar.
posted by tavella at 7:44 AM on July 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by tavella at 7:44 AM on July 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
@tavella Correct. Like the Olympics, an ingenious scheme for converting public money into private profit via the medium of backhanders.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 7:45 AM on July 13, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 7:45 AM on July 13, 2021 [19 favorites]
If not all these fans would be content to put lit road flares in their asses, the problem would… burn a large portion of the country down?
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:03 AM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:03 AM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm largely a neutral fan, and before the tournament started I said I wanted a team which had never won before to take it; by the semi-finals the only team left that fit that description was England, so that's who I rooted for, but in the wake of all this I wish I hadn't and I'm glad they lost.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:03 AM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:03 AM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I, like most of europe, was rooting for the Italians. No words necessary.
posted by Pendragon at 8:10 AM on July 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 8:10 AM on July 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
The fans may be idiots of the first water but I will say that our team did deserve to do as well as they did. This is the first team in a while that I've felt okay rooting for. These lads are helping their communities, supporting each other and standing up against hate and hypocrisy even when it comes from our own government. The way they've been treated by the media and so-called "fans" alike is appalling, but they still gave as good as they could and did the best we've done in years (at least in terms of the men's teams, the women have done much better overall).
Have mixed feelings about the state of the game, love the players, hate the fans. Feels about right for 2021.
posted by fight or flight at 8:29 AM on July 13, 2021 [46 favorites]
Have mixed feelings about the state of the game, love the players, hate the fans. Feels about right for 2021.
posted by fight or flight at 8:29 AM on July 13, 2021 [46 favorites]
> There will be questions asked of the police in terms of what risk assessments they did for the build-up of fans outside the ground and what interventions they made.
Cops everywhere enforce the laws they feel like enforcing.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:46 AM on July 13, 2021 [18 favorites]
Cops everywhere enforce the laws they feel like enforcing.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:46 AM on July 13, 2021 [18 favorites]
And then for good measure there was the racial abuse of the Black players who missed PKs. It's telling that as soon as I soon as I saw Sako miss that PK I knew exactly what the online response would be.
posted by TwoStride at 8:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
One of the weirdest things about football in England right now is that, in the face of the racist/drunk/violent/white supporters, the team itself is a multicultural mix of young, dedicated players (the second youngest team in the competition, after Turkey) who care deeply about the game and their fans - see for instance this twitter thread - and who also were one of the few teams in the Euros to take the knee before every game (the other two were Wales and Belgium), even in the face of racist abuse from people who were supposedly supporting them. The manager, Gareth Southgate, is equally committed to his players, supporting captain Harry Kane's decision to wear a rainbow armband in solidarity with the German captain and gaining widespread admiration for his leadership. Whether or not you share their politics, it's undeniable that the team has been tremendously brave and honest in sticking to their principles.
Fan behaviour has been brutal, and there's a very deeply entrenched culture of violence and racism in English football supporting that needs to be challenged, but if there was ever a team to challenge it, it's the current squad.
posted by spielzebub at 8:58 AM on July 13, 2021 [64 favorites]
Fan behaviour has been brutal, and there's a very deeply entrenched culture of violence and racism in English football supporting that needs to be challenged, but if there was ever a team to challenge it, it's the current squad.
posted by spielzebub at 8:58 AM on July 13, 2021 [64 favorites]
I've had several heated discussions about this with various football-loving and football-hating friends over the past week. This isn't purely a function of the sport; it's an issue much deeper rooted in class, tribalism, toxic masculinity and the "culture war" this current Tory government has been pushing for years. It's no surprise that Patel and Johnson have both been loudly shouted down by players and pundits for condemning the racism while simultaneously calling taking the knee as "gesture politics" and vocally supporting the people booing calls for racial equality. Not that football hooliganism is a recent invention or that any of this excuses the behaviour, but feel I have had to push back hard this week on "football is the problem".
As flight of fight mentions above, another tragedy is that the folks on the pitch come across as genuinely good people, supporting meaningful causes and speaking out against racism and the awful behaviour exhibited by some so-called fans. They are being actual role models.
Having said all that, starting the game at 8PM on a weekend was such a stupid move and there is so little accountability pushed through the organisations to force teams and countries to be responsible for their fans. Until this really starts eating into the profits or enough players and owners get directly involved, it's going to be painfully slow progress.
posted by slimepuppy at 9:02 AM on July 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
As flight of fight mentions above, another tragedy is that the folks on the pitch come across as genuinely good people, supporting meaningful causes and speaking out against racism and the awful behaviour exhibited by some so-called fans. They are being actual role models.
Having said all that, starting the game at 8PM on a weekend was such a stupid move and there is so little accountability pushed through the organisations to force teams and countries to be responsible for their fans. Until this really starts eating into the profits or enough players and owners get directly involved, it's going to be painfully slow progress.
posted by slimepuppy at 9:02 AM on July 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
F1 future superstar Lando Norris has his incredibly ugly watch mugged off him at the game. https://www.bosshunting.com.au/sport/f1/mclaren-f1-lando-norris-richard-mille-watch-stolen-wembley/
posted by Keith Talent at 9:03 AM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Keith Talent at 9:03 AM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
the team has been tremendously brave and honest in sticking to their principles
They are being actual role models.
The only moment that came across as weirdly ungracious was their near-unanimous stripping off their silver medals as soon as they’d been given them - as hosts of the event, it read almost like a refusal to accept/legitimize the end result. I saw a brief mention of the moment in the Grauniad’s liveblog; here in Italy pundits were quick to contrast it (somewhat unfairly, methinks) to Berettini’s absolute revelling in his loss/silver…
posted by progosk at 9:26 AM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
They are being actual role models.
The only moment that came across as weirdly ungracious was their near-unanimous stripping off their silver medals as soon as they’d been given them - as hosts of the event, it read almost like a refusal to accept/legitimize the end result. I saw a brief mention of the moment in the Grauniad’s liveblog; here in Italy pundits were quick to contrast it (somewhat unfairly, methinks) to Berettini’s absolute revelling in his loss/silver…
posted by progosk at 9:26 AM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
This sort of thing is why I was pleased that England lost, in as much as I follow football at all. The team seem to be a very decent bunch of young men, but the fans are (and always have been) awful. The first thing they (or a significant proportion of them) do is be shitty to everyone else. Including their own bloody team if they lose. All the same sort of racist, England-are-top-nation shit that surfaced during the Brexit debate comes back to the surface.
Also, with England losing we were spared the revolting spectacle of Boris Johnson puffing himself up like Mr Toad and claiming to be responsible for a victory he had nothing whatsoever to do with.
posted by Fuchsoid at 9:30 AM on July 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
Also, with England losing we were spared the revolting spectacle of Boris Johnson puffing himself up like Mr Toad and claiming to be responsible for a victory he had nothing whatsoever to do with.
posted by Fuchsoid at 9:30 AM on July 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
I was waiting for the punchline "...and that was just the Tory cabinet." to be at the end of the post.
posted by srboisvert at 9:30 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:30 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
English football’s day of embarrassment
I think you misspelled "shame."
posted by Thorzdad at 9:31 AM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think you misspelled "shame."
posted by Thorzdad at 9:31 AM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
The idea of England winning their first European Championship right after Brexit made me nauseous
I will admit to, a little churlishly, not wanting England to win because I knew that this would be taken as incontrovertible proof that Brexit was a fantastic idea. Really saddened (but not surprised) by the abuse, but also really quite heartened by the pushback to it. The team themselves should be incredibly proud of their conduct, on and off the pitch.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:34 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
I will admit to, a little churlishly, not wanting England to win because I knew that this would be taken as incontrovertible proof that Brexit was a fantastic idea. Really saddened (but not surprised) by the abuse, but also really quite heartened by the pushback to it. The team themselves should be incredibly proud of their conduct, on and off the pitch.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:34 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
I can’t help think back to the protests after the Sarah Everard murder and in response to the new policing bill. The way the protesters were treated then in comparison to the “fans” at the weekend is shocking. Drunken, aggressive, destructive football “fans” seem to do whatever they like but woe betide if you are a reasonable, non violent, fairly polite protester.
The actual result when I heard it the next day was such a relief. Don’t have to face weeks/ months / years / decades of obnoxious gloating. Although as one friend said on Saturday - well maybe if they win they will *finally* stop talking about 1966!
posted by ElasticParrot at 9:35 AM on July 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
The actual result when I heard it the next day was such a relief. Don’t have to face weeks/ months / years / decades of obnoxious gloating. Although as one friend said on Saturday - well maybe if they win they will *finally* stop talking about 1966!
posted by ElasticParrot at 9:35 AM on July 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
I want to defer, in this thread, to the experiences and observations of people who are in the UK, or have spent a lot of time there, or have been paying attention to this hooliganism for a while now.
To you I ask: I have read about the 1989 Hillsborough Disaster in Liverpool. How much does the memory of Hillsborough undergird or inform how people think about this sort of incident? Like, I read the article in The Athletic and a bunch of the stuff the 2021 fans did is stuff that I thought I remembered Liverpool fans being wrongly accused of doing.
posted by brainwane at 9:37 AM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
To you I ask: I have read about the 1989 Hillsborough Disaster in Liverpool. How much does the memory of Hillsborough undergird or inform how people think about this sort of incident? Like, I read the article in The Athletic and a bunch of the stuff the 2021 fans did is stuff that I thought I remembered Liverpool fans being wrongly accused of doing.
posted by brainwane at 9:37 AM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, brainwane - in ‘awful things that happened at football grounds in the 1980s’ there was also the Heysel Stadium incident.
posted by ElasticParrot at 9:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by ElasticParrot at 9:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Brainwane - it hasn't really been mentioned anywhere in the coverage, but it came to my mind. Although mainly (in my case) in relation to not learning the lessons about avoiding any situation where a crush could develop. I haven't had time to read the Athletic article yet, but based on other coverage it sounds like the usual policing you see at a ground just wasn't there, and the build-up around Wembley makes it very hard to manage the flow through the usual concentric layers of security.
The typical narrative of British football post Heysel and Hillsborough is that the introduction of the Premier League and all-seater stadiums "priced out" hooligans - add in modern venues built with crowd management in mind and it's all done. That has clearly never been true - the ability of fans to travel abroad to cause trouble shows that cost is not the only issue. I suspect one thing that will come out in the wash from this is that nobody in charge seems to have considered that advertising that a 90,000 seat venue will only use 60,000 seats due to Covid was taken by some as an open invitation to force their way in.
Add in innovations like automatic gates - that make it easy to squeeze in an extra person but save money on staff - and you've got a situation that's ripe for exploitation. And that's before we consider the role of politicians in refusing to condemn booing. It always starts small and gets bigger and worse.
posted by YoungStencil at 9:56 AM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
The typical narrative of British football post Heysel and Hillsborough is that the introduction of the Premier League and all-seater stadiums "priced out" hooligans - add in modern venues built with crowd management in mind and it's all done. That has clearly never been true - the ability of fans to travel abroad to cause trouble shows that cost is not the only issue. I suspect one thing that will come out in the wash from this is that nobody in charge seems to have considered that advertising that a 90,000 seat venue will only use 60,000 seats due to Covid was taken by some as an open invitation to force their way in.
Add in innovations like automatic gates - that make it easy to squeeze in an extra person but save money on staff - and you've got a situation that's ripe for exploitation. And that's before we consider the role of politicians in refusing to condemn booing. It always starts small and gets bigger and worse.
posted by YoungStencil at 9:56 AM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hillsborough: fan drunkenness and attempted illegal entries were overstated and found to not be significant factors in the tragic deaths. Lack of police control was the main factor.
In this case, fan drunkenness and illegal entries are likely factors in the reported drunkenness and illegal entries. Lack of police control seems likely to have been a major factor.
posted by Sand at 10:00 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
In this case, fan drunkenness and illegal entries are likely factors in the reported drunkenness and illegal entries. Lack of police control seems likely to have been a major factor.
posted by Sand at 10:00 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Also, with England losing we were spared the revolting spectacle of Boris Johnson puffing himself up like Mr Toad and claiming to be responsible for a victory he had nothing whatsoever to do with.
Sounds like Boris is already distancing himself...."I’m told that plans to have the England team to Downing Street for a reception this week have been shelved, with attention turning instead to the PM’s levelling up speech in a few days." (Twitter - Aubrey Allegretti - Political Correspondent)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:07 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Sounds like Boris is already distancing himself...."I’m told that plans to have the England team to Downing Street for a reception this week have been shelved, with attention turning instead to the PM’s levelling up speech in a few days." (Twitter - Aubrey Allegretti - Political Correspondent)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:07 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hillsborough was trending on Twitter for part of Sunday while the footage of Wembley was coming out, so I'd say it's still pretty present in most people's minds when they see the police trying (and failing) to control fans, with a decent part of the conversation focussed around the hypocrisy of some in turning a blind eye to ongoing violence from England fans over the course of the tournament vs. the way Liverpool fans were blamed and demonised after the disaster.
For what it's worth, the Hillsborough disaster was partly down to the grounds not being fully opened up to fans even with tickets, rather than ticketless fans trying to force their way in. It's not a 1:1 comparison at all. Hillsborough was not an act of drunken idiocy from rowdy fans (even if the tabloids wanted to paint it that way), but poor policing and steward control leading to horrific circumstances.
posted by fight or flight at 10:08 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, the Hillsborough disaster was partly down to the grounds not being fully opened up to fans even with tickets, rather than ticketless fans trying to force their way in. It's not a 1:1 comparison at all. Hillsborough was not an act of drunken idiocy from rowdy fans (even if the tabloids wanted to paint it that way), but poor policing and steward control leading to horrific circumstances.
posted by fight or flight at 10:08 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Glad they lost. This country sickens me. I'd leave tomorrow if I had the means.
As for Hillsborough: it's important to note that Liverpudlians have been proudly shat upon from a great height by the rest of the country for many years. It's abuse all the way down. A truly toxic culture. America did right to fight for independence, even if you did inherit the worst of it.
The kids themselves seem all right. But the country doesn't deserve them.
posted by Acey at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
As for Hillsborough: it's important to note that Liverpudlians have been proudly shat upon from a great height by the rest of the country for many years. It's abuse all the way down. A truly toxic culture. America did right to fight for independence, even if you did inherit the worst of it.
The kids themselves seem all right. But the country doesn't deserve them.
posted by Acey at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
(As I remember it - and please correct me if my memory isn't working as one might hope - the victims of Hillsborough were also collateral damage in right-wing Tory performance politics. One trick they used over and over was to weaponise things that middle-class Little England was vaguely worried about in order to create an Enemy Within of the day - Miners, Loony Left Councils, New Age Travellers, Raves, etc. Something that sounded threatening that they could wildly overreact to and enact draconian responses to. As part of their demonisation of football hooliganism, they demanded that stadiums had cages erected to keep the crowds in, so that the pitch couldn't be invaded. When the people in charge herded fans into stands that couldn't contain them, there was nowhere to go, as the cages held them in. The Police and the stewards were responsible for the overcrowding. But the government was responsible for the deaths.)
posted by Grangousier at 10:40 AM on July 13, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 10:40 AM on July 13, 2021 [18 favorites]
All of this is very familiar if you've read Bill Buford 's Among the Thugs, which is about football hooliganism and crowd violence.
This is, if you like, the answer to the hundred-dollar question: why do young males riot every Saturday? They do it for the same reason that another generation drank too much, or smoked dope, or took hallucinogenic drugs, or behaved badly or rebelliously. Violence is their antisocial kick, their mind-altering experience, an adrenaline-induced euphoria that might be all the more powerful because it is generated by the body itself, with, I was convinced, many of the same addictive qualities that characterize synthetically-produced drugs.posted by kirkaracha at 11:04 AM on July 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
I hope this is the very last European sports event that the UK is given the privilege to be invited to compete in, though I know it unfortunately won't be the last.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:05 AM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:05 AM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've found it really painful reading how much you all hate us and are pleased that we lost the final. I understand why that is the case, but it still made me cry.
I can however, take great pride in the England that its men's football team exemplifies. An England that isn't intimidated by politicians sneering at racial justice, that feeds hungry children, that celebrates diversity and takes for its own those of us whose families have moved here for a better life. It is true that we share this patch of our island with narrow minded bigots, who vandalise the murals of our heroes, tarnish our achievements, and get elected to high office. But we have leaders who uplift, thinkers to hold us to account, and people who try to overwhelm hatred with love. We are not beyond redemption.
posted by plonkee at 11:07 AM on July 13, 2021 [54 favorites]
I can however, take great pride in the England that its men's football team exemplifies. An England that isn't intimidated by politicians sneering at racial justice, that feeds hungry children, that celebrates diversity and takes for its own those of us whose families have moved here for a better life. It is true that we share this patch of our island with narrow minded bigots, who vandalise the murals of our heroes, tarnish our achievements, and get elected to high office. But we have leaders who uplift, thinkers to hold us to account, and people who try to overwhelm hatred with love. We are not beyond redemption.
posted by plonkee at 11:07 AM on July 13, 2021 [54 favorites]
I hope this is the very last European sports event that the UK is given the privilege to be invited to compete in
The UK didn't compete in this one.
posted by Grangousier at 11:21 AM on July 13, 2021 [23 favorites]
The UK didn't compete in this one.
posted by Grangousier at 11:21 AM on July 13, 2021 [23 favorites]
The UK does not compete in the European Championship, or the World Cup.
The separate teams of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do.
The European Championship has nothing to do with the European Union or Brexit.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:22 AM on July 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
The separate teams of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland do.
The European Championship has nothing to do with the European Union or Brexit.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:22 AM on July 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
I can’t help think back to the protests after the Sarah Everard murder and in response to the new policing bill. The way the protesters were treated then in comparison to the “fans” at the weekend is shocking. Drunken, aggressive, destructive football “fans” seem to do whatever they like but woe betide if you are a reasonable, non violent, fairly polite protester.
This is, of course, because police are bullies and do violence upon those offering the least resistance to it.
posted by entropone at 11:25 AM on July 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
This is, of course, because police are bullies and do violence upon those offering the least resistance to it.
posted by entropone at 11:25 AM on July 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
It's disappointing to see a sporting championship being smothered in an ugly, bullshit pile of proud ignorance and jingoism, but enough about this thread.
I thought that the England team played well (although I wish they had pressed their advantage more in the first 30 minutes when Italy was on the back foot), and they seem like a solid group of people. I wish that the government of the UK reflected the values of that team -- empathy, standing up for others, hard work, honesty -- mostly for the sakes of the millions and millions of British citizens who are being, you know, governed and governed badly by Johnson and his pack of shits.
posted by Superilla at 11:35 AM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
I thought that the England team played well (although I wish they had pressed their advantage more in the first 30 minutes when Italy was on the back foot), and they seem like a solid group of people. I wish that the government of the UK reflected the values of that team -- empathy, standing up for others, hard work, honesty -- mostly for the sakes of the millions and millions of British citizens who are being, you know, governed and governed badly by Johnson and his pack of shits.
posted by Superilla at 11:35 AM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
Thousands of people forcing their way into the stadium without ticketsReminds me of something else England wants to have without paying for … Still, they got their superspreader event.
Even the Leafs have won something more recently than England. I mean, the Leafs: the punchline team of all hockey jokes, the team that no-one younger than your grandad can remember them winning.
posted by scruss at 11:56 AM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
The England side is not only young and diverse, they are also one of the most talented generations of footballers England has seen in a long time.
Who would want to play, if this was the level of gratitude they receive for the best result England has literally ever achieved at the Euros?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:05 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Who would want to play, if this was the level of gratitude they receive for the best result England has literally ever achieved at the Euros?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:05 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
England is the team I follow the most and I generally want them to do well, but I'm not English so it's more like I picked them when I was a kid and have stuck with them since. I was glad they made it to the final and was especially happy that Raheem Sterling and Luke Shaw had such good tournaments because they've had to put up with quite a lot over the last few years. That being said I went camping with my family this weekend and didn't even have cell service and I was OK with missing the final because while I want England to do well I didn't want them to win this tournament for how it would be used by all the people who weren't directly involved with the team.
With respect to the racist abuse and general thuggery my impression is that there's much less of that in the actual stands than online and outside the stadium, so perhaps the Premier League has helped with the things under its control, but it can't do much about certain elements of wider society. I do remember not too long ago the British press could rightly tut-tut the foreign fans making monkey noises in their stadiums and taking pride in how beyond that England was. The amount of racial abuse that the players have been receiving on social media for the last few years has ended any notion that the English fans were any better. I know that the Guardian has been pretty strong against the events around the final and the politicians and media sources that enabled and encouraged it but I suspect they're an outlier. Barney Ronay's essay in the Guardian even included the word "fuck" which I don't think I've seen in a newspaper before.
Making the final, and losing on penalties, is a sign of further progress under Southgate so they can still be happy with what they've accomplished. Contrast with Belgium who've been a top team going into the last 2-3 tournaments and not even making it that far. I'm hoping that Rashford and Sancho will use whatever vilification they receive as motivation to be better in the coming season, in the same way that Beckham used his sending off at the 98 World Cup to help Manchester United win the treble the following season.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:19 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
With respect to the racist abuse and general thuggery my impression is that there's much less of that in the actual stands than online and outside the stadium, so perhaps the Premier League has helped with the things under its control, but it can't do much about certain elements of wider society. I do remember not too long ago the British press could rightly tut-tut the foreign fans making monkey noises in their stadiums and taking pride in how beyond that England was. The amount of racial abuse that the players have been receiving on social media for the last few years has ended any notion that the English fans were any better. I know that the Guardian has been pretty strong against the events around the final and the politicians and media sources that enabled and encouraged it but I suspect they're an outlier. Barney Ronay's essay in the Guardian even included the word "fuck" which I don't think I've seen in a newspaper before.
Making the final, and losing on penalties, is a sign of further progress under Southgate so they can still be happy with what they've accomplished. Contrast with Belgium who've been a top team going into the last 2-3 tournaments and not even making it that far. I'm hoping that Rashford and Sancho will use whatever vilification they receive as motivation to be better in the coming season, in the same way that Beckham used his sending off at the 98 World Cup to help Manchester United win the treble the following season.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:19 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I love England--I lived several years of my life there and have dedicated my professional career to English literature and culture. Some of the dearest and most important people in my life have been English.
I've never cheered for England in international soccer, though. Part of this is because they have been bad during my lifetime in what I see as a specific it's-their-fault way: because the ultracapitalist Premier League model is based around buying the best talent from around the world at the highest price, the country doesn't develop its own players the way Germany and Italy and France do (quick: what top flight league in a major European soccer country has literally never been won by a team managed by a native of that country? Hint: Alex Ferguson is Scottish.)
But I also never cheer for England because I was in England as a child during the 1994 World Cup and had an unpleasant playground experience at the hands of an aggressive older child who was a very strident England fan. This was, some of you will recall, a World Cup that England failed to qualify for.
This final made me very happy, though I was indeed sorry to see Rashford (who is a particularluy admirable guy as soccer players go), Sancho, and Saka miss.
To English people and England fans in the thread all I can say is that as an American I know what it's like when people dislike my country and want it to lose at things.
posted by sy at 12:25 PM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I've never cheered for England in international soccer, though. Part of this is because they have been bad during my lifetime in what I see as a specific it's-their-fault way: because the ultracapitalist Premier League model is based around buying the best talent from around the world at the highest price, the country doesn't develop its own players the way Germany and Italy and France do (quick: what top flight league in a major European soccer country has literally never been won by a team managed by a native of that country? Hint: Alex Ferguson is Scottish.)
But I also never cheer for England because I was in England as a child during the 1994 World Cup and had an unpleasant playground experience at the hands of an aggressive older child who was a very strident England fan. This was, some of you will recall, a World Cup that England failed to qualify for.
This final made me very happy, though I was indeed sorry to see Rashford (who is a particularluy admirable guy as soccer players go), Sancho, and Saka miss.
To English people and England fans in the thread all I can say is that as an American I know what it's like when people dislike my country and want it to lose at things.
posted by sy at 12:25 PM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I can't say I was surprised by what happened on the day of the final, especially not after the shameful way Danish fans were treated at the semifinal, but it was depressing. Most people who follow football at least semi-obsessively know about the reputation of the fans of the English national team, so this was to be expected.
However, I've been surprised how much this story has broken through, at least here in the Nordic countries. Literally everybody I have had a conversation with yesterday and today has mentioned English fans, and supporting Italy because of them.
Partly, I'm sure, it's because the events of the semifinal with Denmark got a lot of coverage here, but I think also because people were genuinely shocked. English football has been sold as a very sanitized product. The Premier League doesn't have a hooligan problem, and that kind of fan culture is what people expect. Not … this.
As mentioned above, this is especially galling considering that the English players are a fairly pleasant bunch. The England teams I grew up watching had grim expressions and haughty demeanor, so different from most other international teams, which generally seemed to be thrilled to be representing their country at a major tournament.
Though I will say that I found England's play fairly stodgy, but it got results. It was a bit like France in 2018, but without the brittle madness that produced scorelines of 4-3 and 4-2. On the other hand, this England would never have let Switzerland draw from being 3-1 up.
All that said, I was still surprised by how much people I've talked to were set against English success on Sunday. There's a lot of Anglophilia in the Nordic countries, especially regarding football. It was probably the first part of the world where people started following English football passionately from outside the British Isles. In Iceland, for instance, people used to drive up mountains in the wintertime to listen to BBC radio coverage on long wave. People here in the Nordic countries know, and love, English football. They know the players, they know the history. So a lot of people, usually, have the England national team as their 2nd team.
This time, though, it was different. And it was because of the fans. It was unfair to the team, but I can understand why people weren't comfortable with rooting for England.
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 PM on July 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
However, I've been surprised how much this story has broken through, at least here in the Nordic countries. Literally everybody I have had a conversation with yesterday and today has mentioned English fans, and supporting Italy because of them.
Partly, I'm sure, it's because the events of the semifinal with Denmark got a lot of coverage here, but I think also because people were genuinely shocked. English football has been sold as a very sanitized product. The Premier League doesn't have a hooligan problem, and that kind of fan culture is what people expect. Not … this.
As mentioned above, this is especially galling considering that the English players are a fairly pleasant bunch. The England teams I grew up watching had grim expressions and haughty demeanor, so different from most other international teams, which generally seemed to be thrilled to be representing their country at a major tournament.
Though I will say that I found England's play fairly stodgy, but it got results. It was a bit like France in 2018, but without the brittle madness that produced scorelines of 4-3 and 4-2. On the other hand, this England would never have let Switzerland draw from being 3-1 up.
All that said, I was still surprised by how much people I've talked to were set against English success on Sunday. There's a lot of Anglophilia in the Nordic countries, especially regarding football. It was probably the first part of the world where people started following English football passionately from outside the British Isles. In Iceland, for instance, people used to drive up mountains in the wintertime to listen to BBC radio coverage on long wave. People here in the Nordic countries know, and love, English football. They know the players, they know the history. So a lot of people, usually, have the England national team as their 2nd team.
This time, though, it was different. And it was because of the fans. It was unfair to the team, but I can understand why people weren't comfortable with rooting for England.
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 PM on July 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
With respect to the racist abuse and general thuggery my impression is that there's much less of that in the actual stands than online and outside the stadium
I mean, the stadium was full of people booing other national anthems, so I would rethink that. It's just unseemly and terrible sportsmanship.
I generally root against England on the same principle that sees people rooting against the US at the Olympics or against the Yankees and the Lakers. But also, even a Premier League event is grim — I went with work to a Chelsea game once and the spirit of no beer in your seat, concessions slamming closed at the end of halftime, what I would consider still kinda crap crowd control compared to other events I've been to, was really ... not fun! And it seemed like crappy fan behavior was behind a lot of the ruining.
I know England fans are not all English people (just like not all Germans are AfD or all Americans are our sewer people), but it's a weird, fucked-up sickness man.
posted by dame at 1:14 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I mean, the stadium was full of people booing other national anthems, so I would rethink that. It's just unseemly and terrible sportsmanship.
I generally root against England on the same principle that sees people rooting against the US at the Olympics or against the Yankees and the Lakers. But also, even a Premier League event is grim — I went with work to a Chelsea game once and the spirit of no beer in your seat, concessions slamming closed at the end of halftime, what I would consider still kinda crap crowd control compared to other events I've been to, was really ... not fun! And it seemed like crappy fan behavior was behind a lot of the ruining.
I know England fans are not all English people (just like not all Germans are AfD or all Americans are our sewer people), but it's a weird, fucked-up sickness man.
posted by dame at 1:14 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm hoping that Rashford and Sancho will use whatever vilification they receive as motivation to be better in the coming season
Pardon me? I really hope this is just a messy way of saying that one wishes that fan abuse is not a deterrent to Rashford and Sancho continuing to grow as players.
Hoping that abuse victim-shames a person into being better in some way is really a roundabout way of excusing the abuse.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:16 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Pardon me? I really hope this is just a messy way of saying that one wishes that fan abuse is not a deterrent to Rashford and Sancho continuing to grow as players.
Hoping that abuse victim-shames a person into being better in some way is really a roundabout way of excusing the abuse.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:16 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
For anyone who wants a glimpse of football culture from the Italian side (written by a British expat who has lived in Italy for some thirty years or so), I recommend A Season With Verona by Tim Parks.
posted by PussKillian at 2:39 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 2:39 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
a glimpse of football culture from the Italian side
Oh, absolutely: the subculture of hatred, violence and racism that permeates most Italian tifoserie is definitely on a par with the worst of the English, but it tends to rear its head mostly during the national championship, directed either at “historically” rival teams or at black or brown players, as well as any inkling of ethical advocacy anyone dares to attempt. It’s generally different towards the Azzurri, the national team, and their opponents, regarding whom there’s usually more of an attempt at civility on display.
posted by progosk at 3:08 PM on July 13, 2021
Oh, absolutely: the subculture of hatred, violence and racism that permeates most Italian tifoserie is definitely on a par with the worst of the English, but it tends to rear its head mostly during the national championship, directed either at “historically” rival teams or at black or brown players, as well as any inkling of ethical advocacy anyone dares to attempt. It’s generally different towards the Azzurri, the national team, and their opponents, regarding whom there’s usually more of an attempt at civility on display.
posted by progosk at 3:08 PM on July 13, 2021
Existing as a public person in England has always seemed so unpleasant that, before the semi-final, I semi-jokingly suggested that the English team would get far less of home field advantage than any other team could expect. That said, England really did field a spirited and (apparently) public-minded team and they played well this tournament. Its clear that a lot of England fans were proud to be represented by this team, and I feel terrible that their optimism is getting overwritten by the nasty behavior of other fans.
My house supported Italy (as we usually do, even when they're playing in an objectively enraging fashion). But I really wish they'd managed to win before PKs -- I really hated seeing Rashford miss.
posted by grandiloquiet at 4:31 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
My house supported Italy (as we usually do, even when they're playing in an objectively enraging fashion). But I really wish they'd managed to win before PKs -- I really hated seeing Rashford miss.
posted by grandiloquiet at 4:31 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Like the Olympics, an ingenious scheme for converting public money into private profit via the medium of backhanders.
While I recognize the seriousness of the situation at Wembley, the nature of the problem juxtaposed with a mention of the Olympics can for me only call to mind this moment from the criminally obscure Australian series The Games. Anyone who has been forced to take part in a roleplaying exercise at a work retreat can identify.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:11 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
While I recognize the seriousness of the situation at Wembley, the nature of the problem juxtaposed with a mention of the Olympics can for me only call to mind this moment from the criminally obscure Australian series The Games. Anyone who has been forced to take part in a roleplaying exercise at a work retreat can identify.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:11 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
As with Hillsborough, the police are wiping their hands and placing the blame for everything on the fans - it took literal decades to set the record straight on Hillsborough.
Now in this case, the fans really do have to take some share of the blame. But the police statement in the Athletic article is enraging for the way it shrugs its shoulders and says everything was more or less fine. Clearly law enforcement was not up to the task for what should have been an obvious potential flashpoint.
posted by hiteleven at 7:28 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now in this case, the fans really do have to take some share of the blame. But the police statement in the Athletic article is enraging for the way it shrugs its shoulders and says everything was more or less fine. Clearly law enforcement was not up to the task for what should have been an obvious potential flashpoint.
posted by hiteleven at 7:28 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Why are British sports fans worse than American sports fans when England is generally accepted as more civil than America? It really is baffling to me. I'm not saying America doesn't have it's share of despicable fan behavior, but the English fans are Huns in comparison.
posted by Beholder at 8:43 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 8:43 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
To be clear, it appears that “fans” and “people” (inTFA) are actually exclusively men and boys. Revolting and utterly out of control. What makes such a toxic stew occur?
posted by dbmcd at 10:16 PM on July 13, 2021
posted by dbmcd at 10:16 PM on July 13, 2021
I don't really see that Britain is more civil than the US? The horrific tabloid press? The very prominent TREFs? Brexit? People defying quarantine? The US is the bratty child of an obnoxious parent.
posted by LindsayIrene at 11:22 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 11:22 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
For all the understandable dismay at the gentrification of football in the UK brought about by all seater stadiums and the premier league, the positive was that crowds became more diverse. I know it’s anecdote, not data, but from TV pictures the crowd following England in this competition looked like one from the 1970s. I can’t help thinking that played a part.
posted by dudleian at 11:33 PM on July 13, 2021
posted by dudleian at 11:33 PM on July 13, 2021
Why are British sports fans worse than American sports fans when England is generally accepted as more civil than America?
As an American who has lived a long time in Greece ... my personal perception is that at least here, this is actually not the general attitude? In fact, quite the opposite. I think Americans in general (ie, as visitors) are considered to be mostly very nice, indeed, whereas there's a significant type of British holiday-er infamous for loud, drunken brawling, trashing the place, puking all over everything and then passing out on the streets, etc. So much so that some islands want to ban them entirely. There's surely an economics / age / class component to that, but I'm just saying, people here don't necessarily think the standard issue American = rude, gross, disruptive, demanding, etc. (and just as a coda on this, my Greek husband who lived in the US 15 years always says that nice Americans are pretty much the nicest people anywhere, and that in his time there, he met mostly nice Americans.) I think Americans can often seem very naive, but that's a different conversation.
posted by taz at 12:05 AM on July 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
As an American who has lived a long time in Greece ... my personal perception is that at least here, this is actually not the general attitude? In fact, quite the opposite. I think Americans in general (ie, as visitors) are considered to be mostly very nice, indeed, whereas there's a significant type of British holiday-er infamous for loud, drunken brawling, trashing the place, puking all over everything and then passing out on the streets, etc. So much so that some islands want to ban them entirely. There's surely an economics / age / class component to that, but I'm just saying, people here don't necessarily think the standard issue American = rude, gross, disruptive, demanding, etc. (and just as a coda on this, my Greek husband who lived in the US 15 years always says that nice Americans are pretty much the nicest people anywhere, and that in his time there, he met mostly nice Americans.) I think Americans can often seem very naive, but that's a different conversation.
posted by taz at 12:05 AM on July 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
The English team were, at the end, impressive. That first goal was a real stroke of lightning - a beautifully orchestrated event that looked to be the tone-setter for the match and filled me with dread. Like every single other person I'd spoken to about football (and granted I'm in Germany where there is a cultural(football cultural) disdain for England,) the idea of England winning and then the exploitation that would naturally follow by the Tories, by Johnson, was excruciating.
Also, the booing of the national anthems was... not praise-worthy. And the racist tsunami afterwards was 100% unsurprising.
The entire time Sterling was on the field, every time the ball even got close to him, I felt my heart drop. 'Here it comes, here's the end of the game' because he is so fast, so smart, so adept - a player who crystalizes the tactics at work, like Lahm (Germany) or Messi (GOAT) or Modric (Croatia) or Benzema, Pogba, etc etc, and with a touch of speed exploits the weak spot. A thrilling player. And he seemed to have Italy's number. For some irrational reason I hate Harry Kane and he showed a withering command of his squad and, also, a remarkably sure foot - which made me hate him even more. Because they were/are a really good team.
And I was glad they lost. For nothing at all to do with them as a team. (That kind of sucks, because I am not a fan of (previous) Italy teams, though this team played a much more interesting game and their turn-around in the second half was thrilling, I would have been willing to root for England against them if only England hadn't been...)
Also, Among the Thugs is a great read, at the time I read it I knew nothing of 'Thug' culture and it was an eye-opener. I'd hung out around Punk rock in the 80's and 90's and I thought there would be a corollary but ... no. (Buford was editor at 'Granta' at the time and it was a fantastic magazine - I was rooting for him to get the spot at The New Yorker when Remnick pipped him...)
posted by From Bklyn at 12:15 AM on July 14, 2021
Also, the booing of the national anthems was... not praise-worthy. And the racist tsunami afterwards was 100% unsurprising.
The entire time Sterling was on the field, every time the ball even got close to him, I felt my heart drop. 'Here it comes, here's the end of the game' because he is so fast, so smart, so adept - a player who crystalizes the tactics at work, like Lahm (Germany) or Messi (GOAT) or Modric (Croatia) or Benzema, Pogba, etc etc, and with a touch of speed exploits the weak spot. A thrilling player. And he seemed to have Italy's number. For some irrational reason I hate Harry Kane and he showed a withering command of his squad and, also, a remarkably sure foot - which made me hate him even more. Because they were/are a really good team.
And I was glad they lost. For nothing at all to do with them as a team. (That kind of sucks, because I am not a fan of (previous) Italy teams, though this team played a much more interesting game and their turn-around in the second half was thrilling, I would have been willing to root for England against them if only England hadn't been...)
Also, Among the Thugs is a great read, at the time I read it I knew nothing of 'Thug' culture and it was an eye-opener. I'd hung out around Punk rock in the 80's and 90's and I thought there would be a corollary but ... no. (Buford was editor at 'Granta' at the time and it was a fantastic magazine - I was rooting for him to get the spot at The New Yorker when Remnick pipped him...)
posted by From Bklyn at 12:15 AM on July 14, 2021
The events before the game gave words to why I wasn't looking forward to the match -- I struggled to explain to a colleague who wanted some glory in victory (without thinking about the consequences of the behaviour England fans).
The words by plonkee are quite a contrast about a different kind of England exemplified by the team and their actions off the pitch. Thank you.
posted by k3ninho at 12:52 AM on July 14, 2021
The words by plonkee are quite a contrast about a different kind of England exemplified by the team and their actions off the pitch. Thank you.
posted by k3ninho at 12:52 AM on July 14, 2021
The Guardian has more details on how the ticketless fans managed to get in: England fan who stormed Euro 2020 final at Wembley defends his actions – ‘Pablo’, 24, estimates at least 5,000 ticketless fans got into Wembley on Sunday and explains how they did it. Apparently they planned it in groups through Telegram chats, forged the fake tickets on their phone from images of real tickets, then bribed the stewards at the stadium, or went for the disabled entrances.
“Every time a disabled entrance was opened there must have been 300 people who got in. And it seemed that every 10 minutes one got yanked open. And that doesn’t count the people who bribed stewards or went behind someone in the turnstiles. I would be shocked if there was less than 5,000 got in without a ticket.”posted by bitteschoen at 1:49 AM on July 14, 2021
Embarrassing failure for the Met Police and FA. Patently obvious this would be a major risk.
posted by knapah at 2:16 AM on July 14, 2021
posted by knapah at 2:16 AM on July 14, 2021
Why are British sports fans worse than American sports fans when England is generally accepted as more civil than America?
Are they though? The Philadelphia Eagles have a jail and a judge in their stadium and its known that you should not wear an opposing team's jersey to that stadium or you could be hurt. Their city also usually burns after a championship, win or lose. That's just one example but there are certain teams known to have really shitty fans in the US too.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:29 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Are they though? The Philadelphia Eagles have a jail and a judge in their stadium and its known that you should not wear an opposing team's jersey to that stadium or you could be hurt. Their city also usually burns after a championship, win or lose. That's just one example but there are certain teams known to have really shitty fans in the US too.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:29 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
In these threads I'm always a bit reminded of George Orwell's 1941 quote from The Lion and the Unicorn:
But hey, the racist elements in the fans are kicking up a backlash, so let's sneer and oppose our own team.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:36 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized.... In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings.So we have a national football team whose members take the knee before every game. They loudly oppose racism and campaign effectively against food poverty. The captain wears a rainbow armband. The coach writes articles about how the England team has a "duty to continue to interact with the public on matters such as equality, inclusivity and racial injustice, while using the power of their voices to help put debates on the table, raise awareness and educate."
But hey, the racist elements in the fans are kicking up a backlash, so let's sneer and oppose our own team.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:36 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
But hey, the racist elements in the fans are kicking up a backlash, so let's sneer and oppose our own team.
The team don't control how they, or their hypothetical victory, get used and abused by the media, by the government, and by their fanbase.
Nationalism is an ugly thing regardless of where you're from, but if you're from a nation whose history is imperial subjugation of much of the rest of the world, it's even uglier. I can totally see how people would not want to support anything that emboldens that, regardless of if your opinion in a bloodless theoretical wound be very different.
posted by Dysk at 3:25 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
The team don't control how they, or their hypothetical victory, get used and abused by the media, by the government, and by their fanbase.
Nationalism is an ugly thing regardless of where you're from, but if you're from a nation whose history is imperial subjugation of much of the rest of the world, it's even uglier. I can totally see how people would not want to support anything that emboldens that, regardless of if your opinion in a bloodless theoretical wound be very different.
posted by Dysk at 3:25 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think in some ways it's another form of arrogance. "Of course the French, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Belgians and the Portuguese don't need to be ashamed of their puny little empires: only ours was mighty and powerful enough to deserve anti-patriotism".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:32 AM on July 14, 2021
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:32 AM on July 14, 2021
No, I purposefully worded it to include all countries with that kind of imperial history. I can't speak to what football culture is in for example Belgium, I neither live there nor speak that languages to follow their domestic press. Bringing it up when the discussion and thread are very much about England comes across as whataboutism.
posted by Dysk at 3:51 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 3:51 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
only ours was mighty and powerful enough to deserve anti-patriotism
Well, I mean.. it was. The crimes committed by the British Empire against the world are incalculable. Does that mean that we should ignore them when we have a particularly good football team storming through an international tournament?
I think you're assuming that it's not possible for someone to feel great fondness and affection for the concept and potential of their country while also feeling disgust and shame for the reality of what that country has come to be on the world stage. I don't think that this feeling is unique to English people either, or even to people in the wealthy West. National pride is a complex emotion at the best of times, no matter where you're from or what particular bit of nasty history (or present reality) you're grappling with.
This feels a bit like the whole debate about the statues again (sidenote: was that a year ago? Jesus). Wanting your country to be accountable and to be better is no bad thing, and often comes from a place of love. Better to be critical of something that means a lot to you (or at least that is important in how much it impacts your life) than to be apathetic and let it get worse because you don't care enough to do otherwise.
posted by fight or flight at 3:57 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Well, I mean.. it was. The crimes committed by the British Empire against the world are incalculable. Does that mean that we should ignore them when we have a particularly good football team storming through an international tournament?
I think you're assuming that it's not possible for someone to feel great fondness and affection for the concept and potential of their country while also feeling disgust and shame for the reality of what that country has come to be on the world stage. I don't think that this feeling is unique to English people either, or even to people in the wealthy West. National pride is a complex emotion at the best of times, no matter where you're from or what particular bit of nasty history (or present reality) you're grappling with.
This feels a bit like the whole debate about the statues again (sidenote: was that a year ago? Jesus). Wanting your country to be accountable and to be better is no bad thing, and often comes from a place of love. Better to be critical of something that means a lot to you (or at least that is important in how much it impacts your life) than to be apathetic and let it get worse because you don't care enough to do otherwise.
posted by fight or flight at 3:57 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
And in response to the "what about other countries!?!" - how many of them are being charged by UEFA over fan conduct? The situation with England is qualitatively and quantitatively different.
posted by Dysk at 4:32 AM on July 14, 2021
posted by Dysk at 4:32 AM on July 14, 2021
Well I'm bowing out of the thread now because for this and other reasons I'm quite close to leaving the site.
But again I'd like to say I'm a mixed race guy with ancestors in two different former colonies, both of whose parents left school at 16.
And this "we must sneer at the national football team because of our abstract disdain for imperialism" feels to me very much like a white person thing.
Metafilter is a weird place in that I've never seen somewhere that has so much concern for racism in the abstract and so much hostility to actual non-white people (talking about the non-white members of the England team here).
It's like "We've got to boo Raheem Sterling and Marcus Rashford because we hate racism so darn much."
Anyway I'm logging out of the site for a few days.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:49 AM on July 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
But again I'd like to say I'm a mixed race guy with ancestors in two different former colonies, both of whose parents left school at 16.
And this "we must sneer at the national football team because of our abstract disdain for imperialism" feels to me very much like a white person thing.
Metafilter is a weird place in that I've never seen somewhere that has so much concern for racism in the abstract and so much hostility to actual non-white people (talking about the non-white members of the England team here).
It's like "We've got to boo Raheem Sterling and Marcus Rashford because we hate racism so darn much."
Anyway I'm logging out of the site for a few days.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 4:49 AM on July 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
It's like "We've got to boo Raheem Sterling and Marcus Rashford because we hate racism so darn much."
I'd love to see some examples of where you see anyone booing Sterling or Rashford in this thread, because as far as I can see it's people saying that we (nationally) didn't deserve to win the tournament, but the team themselves did a good job and deserve to be celebrated/applauded. Like there are multiple comments saying just that. Nobody is shitting on the team themselves here. Maybe on Instagram and twitter where the racists are allowed to shout with impunity, but I don't see where you're getting that impression here?
posted by fight or flight at 5:11 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'd love to see some examples of where you see anyone booing Sterling or Rashford in this thread, because as far as I can see it's people saying that we (nationally) didn't deserve to win the tournament, but the team themselves did a good job and deserve to be celebrated/applauded. Like there are multiple comments saying just that. Nobody is shitting on the team themselves here. Maybe on Instagram and twitter where the racists are allowed to shout with impunity, but I don't see where you're getting that impression here?
posted by fight or flight at 5:11 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
The idea that there were millions of people across Europe who were neither English nor Italian who were deeply committed to an Italian victory feels like a fabrication of the British tabloid press, to be honest. In my experience, the average Dutch, French, Spanish or German football fan didn't go into this caring about Brexit and the idea that they would is a little odd. I don't doubt that some people care but I know plenty of football fans in my extended family and friend circle in three of those countries and a few in Spain and the reality is that none of them had any particular preference going into this match. This is an extension of a general Anglo fantasy where Brexit is a central a culture war event as it is in the UK - again, simply not the case. For the most part, the media and most people in the rest of Europe have covered the negotiations through the business pages where other trade deals go with the exception of a few crucial moments.
It might well be different in Scandinavia, the only people I know there aren't really into football and booing the Danish national anthem and other "fan" antics aren't particularly endearing behaviours.
I've observed before that in my experience, about 40% of the English population thinks that the rest of the world looks at them as some kind of exemplar, they read the Daily Mail. 40% thinks that the rest of the world looks on them in a kind of unique horror, these people read the Guardian. 20% live in the real world where most people spend virtually all the mental energy they devote to politics on their domestic politics. I've seen many times where a particular event in domestic politics in England (or in the UK more broadly) is "contextualised" by the various domestic rags in terms of what the rest of the world is thinking about it when anyone who can actually read the newspapers of the rest of the world - i.e. almost no-one in England1 - can plainly see that the rest of the world has only an appropriate level of interest in it. I.e. it gets the kind of coverage in Le Monde (in any case the European newspaper with the best coverage of UK politics) that the regional French elections get in UK papers. So there is a kind of shadow-nationalism, pointed out by TheophileEscargot above, where in a supposed attempt to counteract English nationalism, it actually gets turned into a kind of inverse which is still completely Anglo-centric.
I also think it's a little pathetic to want a particular team to lose rather than to win because isn't that ultimately establishing them as a sort of dominating force within the space of your own head? Isn't that ultimately the Daily Mail writer's internal world, where everyone in the world is either for or against England but always England is at the centre? I've scarcely seen anything more provincial than Australian fans who demonstrate their supposed cultural independence from a country that rarely thinks about them by always cheering against their team. I feel the same way about Scottish fans doing the same, ultimately Scottish nationalism only became broadly attractive in Scotland when it moved beyond its constipated Presbyterian roots and there is something repellently servile about seeing Scottish fans cheer against England. As if the imagination can hardly stretch further than defining oneself as not-X.
Also, with England losing we were spared the revolting spectacle of Boris Johnson puffing himself up like Mr Toad and claiming to be responsible for a victory he had nothing whatsoever to do with.
Unfortunately, either way we were going to get revolting people explaining to us at length how this football match justified their political beliefs.
(1) Not really unique to England either as most Germans or French don't read each other's media but at least their elites usually *can* which the English often cannot.
posted by atrazine at 6:19 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
It might well be different in Scandinavia, the only people I know there aren't really into football and booing the Danish national anthem and other "fan" antics aren't particularly endearing behaviours.
I've observed before that in my experience, about 40% of the English population thinks that the rest of the world looks at them as some kind of exemplar, they read the Daily Mail. 40% thinks that the rest of the world looks on them in a kind of unique horror, these people read the Guardian. 20% live in the real world where most people spend virtually all the mental energy they devote to politics on their domestic politics. I've seen many times where a particular event in domestic politics in England (or in the UK more broadly) is "contextualised" by the various domestic rags in terms of what the rest of the world is thinking about it when anyone who can actually read the newspapers of the rest of the world - i.e. almost no-one in England1 - can plainly see that the rest of the world has only an appropriate level of interest in it. I.e. it gets the kind of coverage in Le Monde (in any case the European newspaper with the best coverage of UK politics) that the regional French elections get in UK papers. So there is a kind of shadow-nationalism, pointed out by TheophileEscargot above, where in a supposed attempt to counteract English nationalism, it actually gets turned into a kind of inverse which is still completely Anglo-centric.
I also think it's a little pathetic to want a particular team to lose rather than to win because isn't that ultimately establishing them as a sort of dominating force within the space of your own head? Isn't that ultimately the Daily Mail writer's internal world, where everyone in the world is either for or against England but always England is at the centre? I've scarcely seen anything more provincial than Australian fans who demonstrate their supposed cultural independence from a country that rarely thinks about them by always cheering against their team. I feel the same way about Scottish fans doing the same, ultimately Scottish nationalism only became broadly attractive in Scotland when it moved beyond its constipated Presbyterian roots and there is something repellently servile about seeing Scottish fans cheer against England. As if the imagination can hardly stretch further than defining oneself as not-X.
Also, with England losing we were spared the revolting spectacle of Boris Johnson puffing himself up like Mr Toad and claiming to be responsible for a victory he had nothing whatsoever to do with.
Unfortunately, either way we were going to get revolting people explaining to us at length how this football match justified their political beliefs.
(1) Not really unique to England either as most Germans or French don't read each other's media but at least their elites usually *can* which the English often cannot.
posted by atrazine at 6:19 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I also think it's a little pathetic to want a particular team to lose rather than to win because isn't that ultimately establishing them as a sort of dominating force within the space of your own head?
Some of us live in England, so yeah, it will dominate our headspace and lives somewhat. As England-based foreigners, we'd also be the ones having the victory aggressively rubbed in our faces by colleagues, people in the pub, etc, etc for the next decades.
posted by Dysk at 7:02 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Some of us live in England, so yeah, it will dominate our headspace and lives somewhat. As England-based foreigners, we'd also be the ones having the victory aggressively rubbed in our faces by colleagues, people in the pub, etc, etc for the next decades.
posted by Dysk at 7:02 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Somehow it is possible for a person to have a preference for the outcome of a sporting event without it being the only thing they care or think about.
posted by sinfony at 7:16 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by sinfony at 7:16 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, I am a European living in England and the idea that I would have this aggressively rubbed in my face (let alone for decades) is completely alien to me but I have to accept that other people may experience these things differently. I had a very mild preference for England to win because I thought it was a lovely team and I thought it might be nice for my English friends to win something.
posted by atrazine at 7:28 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by atrazine at 7:28 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also, the booing of the national anthems was...
I'm an American, and I was once in Edinburgh during the (then) Five Nations rugby tournament. Wales was playing Scotland in Edinburgh, so I went to a pub to watch the match. When they played each country's national anthem, everyone in the pub, which was pretty evenly mixed between Welch and Scottish fans, stood up. It was moving to see each country's fans show respect for the other country's anthem.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:58 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm an American, and I was once in Edinburgh during the (then) Five Nations rugby tournament. Wales was playing Scotland in Edinburgh, so I went to a pub to watch the match. When they played each country's national anthem, everyone in the pub, which was pretty evenly mixed between Welch and Scottish fans, stood up. It was moving to see each country's fans show respect for the other country's anthem.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:58 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Philadelphia Eagles have a jail and a judge in their stadium
CBS Sports article: "The stadium jail has since been shuttered -- an "Eagles Court" technically exists but not within the new stadium -- and while the Eagles probably improved the quality of fan experience by cutting down on the rowdiness of their fans, they certainly didn't do anything to help the lore of the intense Philly football fan."
posted by cooker girl at 8:03 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
CBS Sports article: "The stadium jail has since been shuttered -- an "Eagles Court" technically exists but not within the new stadium -- and while the Eagles probably improved the quality of fan experience by cutting down on the rowdiness of their fans, they certainly didn't do anything to help the lore of the intense Philly football fan."
posted by cooker girl at 8:03 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Philadelphia Eagles have a jail and a judge in their stadium and its known that you should not wear an opposing team's jersey to that stadium or you could be hurt.
As a Philadelphian... it's not that this is wrong, per se. I've attended one Eagles game in my life, and I spent about half of my time watching the field and half watching the assorted drunken antics behind me in the upper deck. And this was a fairly meaningless midseason game, not a grudge match against the hated Cowboys or something like that.
It is largely restricted to professional football, though. Yes, there were wild celebrations and overturned cars when the Phillies won the World Series a few years back, but that is standard practice in many a large city when a championship is won. But it's comparatively rare to see violent, drunken outbursts from Phillies, Sixers or Flyers fans, win or lose; it is largely centered around the Eagles. The reasons for this seem similar to why England's footy fans do what they do:
1) Tribalism. An intense sense of "belonging" to the team, and the team to them. A distinct emotional connection to the team's success or failure, or to their rivals' success or failure.
2) Alcohol. Generally in large quantities. The later a game starts, the more time the fans have time to prepare themselves, the more thoroughly marinated they will be before they even enter the stadium.
3) Being accustomed to falling short. As noted, this was England's first crack at a big prize in ages, much like the Eagles spent decades being good enough to be competitive, to come CLOSE to a big victory, but fell short of the championship with clockwork regularity. Fatalism breeds discontent.
4) Reputation. Toxic masculinity suggests that the fans who are the most flamboyant, the most offensive, the most aggressive in their actions are the best and most lionized. Eagles fans took _pride_ in being viewed as out-of-control and dangerous; if we can't win, we can at least inspire fear, and make our city the scariest place to come and play. That reputation is not shunned; it is celebrated by the fanbase for the most part.
posted by delfin at 8:13 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
As a Philadelphian... it's not that this is wrong, per se. I've attended one Eagles game in my life, and I spent about half of my time watching the field and half watching the assorted drunken antics behind me in the upper deck. And this was a fairly meaningless midseason game, not a grudge match against the hated Cowboys or something like that.
It is largely restricted to professional football, though. Yes, there were wild celebrations and overturned cars when the Phillies won the World Series a few years back, but that is standard practice in many a large city when a championship is won. But it's comparatively rare to see violent, drunken outbursts from Phillies, Sixers or Flyers fans, win or lose; it is largely centered around the Eagles. The reasons for this seem similar to why England's footy fans do what they do:
1) Tribalism. An intense sense of "belonging" to the team, and the team to them. A distinct emotional connection to the team's success or failure, or to their rivals' success or failure.
2) Alcohol. Generally in large quantities. The later a game starts, the more time the fans have time to prepare themselves, the more thoroughly marinated they will be before they even enter the stadium.
3) Being accustomed to falling short. As noted, this was England's first crack at a big prize in ages, much like the Eagles spent decades being good enough to be competitive, to come CLOSE to a big victory, but fell short of the championship with clockwork regularity. Fatalism breeds discontent.
4) Reputation. Toxic masculinity suggests that the fans who are the most flamboyant, the most offensive, the most aggressive in their actions are the best and most lionized. Eagles fans took _pride_ in being viewed as out-of-control and dangerous; if we can't win, we can at least inspire fear, and make our city the scariest place to come and play. That reputation is not shunned; it is celebrated by the fanbase for the most part.
posted by delfin at 8:13 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
The idea that there were millions of people across Europe who were neither English nor Italian who were deeply committed to an Italian victory feels like a fabrication of the British tabloid press, to be honest.
"Deeply committed" would perhaps be an exaggeration, but it is not news that there was a significant contingent of people in the EU not wanting England to win because of the ugly behaviour of part of its fans *and* yes possibly also because of the ugly anti-European sentiment culminated with Brexit... Anyhow, don’t take my word for it, here’s a few quotes from an article not in a British tabloid but in the New York Times (non-paywalled link at archive.is):
"Deeply committed" would perhaps be an exaggeration, but it is not news that there was a significant contingent of people in the EU not wanting England to win because of the ugly behaviour of part of its fans *and* yes possibly also because of the ugly anti-European sentiment culminated with Brexit... Anyhow, don’t take my word for it, here’s a few quotes from an article not in a British tabloid but in the New York Times (non-paywalled link at archive.is):
With Italian Soccer Victory, ‘Brexit Completed’posted by bitteschoen at 9:52 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
It was inevitable that political score settling would be layered onto the Euro 2020 championship, and European fans and leaders took more than a little glee in denying England a chance for vindication.
[...] Before the final began, President Ursula von der Leyen of the European Commission looked absolutely delighted to don the Italian colors with her name on the jersey above the number 27, which is the number of countries in the bloc. If England had stayed, she would have worn 28. “Very nice surprise from our E.U. Commission team in Italy,” she wrote, beaming as she held up the jersey and posed behind an “Italy” scarf. She wished the Italian team good luck and wrote, “Fingers crossed for tonight’s Euro 2020 final.”
[...]A Polish colleague in the Parliament, Łukasz Kohut, said he was rooting for Italy because of Brexit, and after the final whistle, Luis Garicano, a member of Parliament from Spain, posted a video of the revelry at a viewing party just outside the building. “Brexit on the side of European Parliament,” he wrote.
Some of the most enthusiastic rooting against England came from the corners of the United Kingdom most disgusted with Brexit.
Before the game, the Scottish newspaper The National superimposed the face of Coach Mancini on Mel Gibson’s character in the movie “Braveheart,” with the headline, “Save us Roberto, You’re our Final Hope: We can’t take another 55 years of them banging on about this.”
Well, I am a European living in England and the idea that I would have this aggressively rubbed in my face (let alone for decades) is completely alien to me but I have to accept that other people may experience these things differently.
Am I right in guessing that you work on an office? I work in a warehouse in a building site, and just as an example, my German colleague has heard no end of variations of "two world wars and one world cup" since the start of the tourney, only escalating when it became apparent that Germany v England would happen. The days before and after the semi were deeply uncomfortable for me (I'm Danish) and involved a lot of shouted xenophobic abuse.
posted by Dysk at 10:10 AM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Am I right in guessing that you work on an office? I work in a warehouse in a building site, and just as an example, my German colleague has heard no end of variations of "two world wars and one world cup" since the start of the tourney, only escalating when it became apparent that Germany v England would happen. The days before and after the semi were deeply uncomfortable for me (I'm Danish) and involved a lot of shouted xenophobic abuse.
posted by Dysk at 10:10 AM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
And yes, no disrespect to the team. This time around, it seemed like as decent and upstanding a collection of millionaires as you could possibly put together. Nobody here is booing Saka or Sterling - it's a contingent of the England fans doing that. They're decent people. The team deserved to do well (and they did!), the issue is with England as a whole, and the broader consequences of a win.
posted by Dysk at 10:53 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 10:53 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
> The idea that there were millions of people across Europe who were neither English nor Italian who were deeply committed to an Italian victory feels like a fabrication of the British tabloid press, to be honest.
I disagree, and here is one example of why, and I'm also confused how you can make a point like that in a thread like this.
As an attempted counter to the tone of this thread, I offer (to paraphrase) England's month of hope.
posted by stop....hammertime at 11:17 AM on July 14, 2021
I disagree, and here is one example of why, and I'm also confused how you can make a point like that in a thread like this.
As an attempted counter to the tone of this thread, I offer (to paraphrase) England's month of hope.
posted by stop....hammertime at 11:17 AM on July 14, 2021
European here. Oh yeah, we talk about football a lot here. I haven't met a single person who was sad about the outcome - though everyone aknowledges that the English team was great.
Even the ones who started off wanting England to win, were so put off by the extraordinary shit show both in and around Wembley, they just...changed sides.
I think it's also because all you ever see of England in popular media for years now is Brexiters. And now hooligans.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:46 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Even the ones who started off wanting England to win, were so put off by the extraordinary shit show both in and around Wembley, they just...changed sides.
I think it's also because all you ever see of England in popular media for years now is Brexiters. And now hooligans.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:46 AM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
"Deeply committed" would perhaps be an exaggeration, but it is not news that there was a significant contingent of people in the EU not wanting England to win because of the ugly behaviour of part of its fans *and* yes possibly also because of the ugly anti-European sentiment culminated with Brexit... Anyhow, don’t take my word for it, here’s a few quotes from an article not in a British tabloid but in the New York Times (non-paywalled link at archive.is):
Well, yeah, but most of those people are politicians. Ursula vdL is realistically about as interested in football as Johnson. The Danish newspaper poll was much more interesting in that regard since those are actually normal people rather that politicians trying to make a point.
Am I right in guessing that you work on an office? I work in a warehouse in a building site, and just as an example, my German colleague has heard no end of variations of "two world wars and one world cup" since the start of the tourney, only escalating when it became apparent that Germany v England would happen. The days before and after the semi were deeply uncomfortable for me (I'm Danish) and involved a lot of shouted xenophobic abuse.
I work in the utility and construction businesses so often not at an office... but my relationships with people on site are usually that I'm there to talk to their boss on behalf of boss's client so I take the point that I'm not exposed to the world of the working class in quite that way, sure.
posted by atrazine at 1:09 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well, yeah, but most of those people are politicians. Ursula vdL is realistically about as interested in football as Johnson. The Danish newspaper poll was much more interesting in that regard since those are actually normal people rather that politicians trying to make a point.
Am I right in guessing that you work on an office? I work in a warehouse in a building site, and just as an example, my German colleague has heard no end of variations of "two world wars and one world cup" since the start of the tourney, only escalating when it became apparent that Germany v England would happen. The days before and after the semi were deeply uncomfortable for me (I'm Danish) and involved a lot of shouted xenophobic abuse.
I work in the utility and construction businesses so often not at an office... but my relationships with people on site are usually that I'm there to talk to their boss on behalf of boss's client so I take the point that I'm not exposed to the world of the working class in quite that way, sure.
posted by atrazine at 1:09 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
> Even the ones who started off wanting England to win, were so put off by the extraordinary shit show both in and around Wembley, they just...changed sides.
> I think it's also because all you ever see of England in popular media for years now is Brexiters. And now hooligans.
Yes, and the - it would seem - consequent state of UK-wide sentiment in Europe is dreadful (especially when compared with the reverse).
We have a lot of disparate problems to solve, a government with neither the skills to solve the problems or any real intention of trying to help, and a large part of the electorate who are apathetic (if not outright disillusioned).
So in the context of that, I think following the England football team is an absolute no-brainer (for an Englishman), given that they have plenty of clout, and that they are trying to use it to raise awareness/confront various issues.
posted by stop....hammertime at 3:53 PM on July 14, 2021
> I think it's also because all you ever see of England in popular media for years now is Brexiters. And now hooligans.
Yes, and the - it would seem - consequent state of UK-wide sentiment in Europe is dreadful (especially when compared with the reverse).
We have a lot of disparate problems to solve, a government with neither the skills to solve the problems or any real intention of trying to help, and a large part of the electorate who are apathetic (if not outright disillusioned).
So in the context of that, I think following the England football team is an absolute no-brainer (for an Englishman), given that they have plenty of clout, and that they are trying to use it to raise awareness/confront various issues.
posted by stop....hammertime at 3:53 PM on July 14, 2021
Watching the final on the TV as an Englishman was a weird experience. Firstly, because it's the first men's team major tournament final for 55 years; literally before I was born. And if any English team deserved it, it was this one.
Firstly, because they actually worked as a team on the pitch, and played very well on the whole. (Danish penalty aside). Yes, they looked fairly pedestrian in the 2nd half of the final, but that's because the Italians adapted and kept the ball away from them, and were the even better team. I don't actually follow football that much, but I do watch major men's internationals (I'd watch more of the women's games if I didn't have to pay Murdoch to do so)
But more than that, I'm so proud of them because they've really taken their position of role models to heart and shown collectively a large regard for social justice. Far more than the English nationalist UK government, or indeed a majority in the country. Take the manager's letter before the start of the tournament, their continued insistance on collectively taking the knee despite the boos, criticism and outright abuse - some of it from our slug of a Prime Minister, or f.ex Marcus Rashford successfully shaming the government into action on child food poverty - twice.
England as a country though... hoo boy, we do not deserve such a young, talented, diverse and socially active team. I believe the worst fans are a minority overall, but they make the experience so much worse for everyone. Heaping racist abuse on the team, booing other team's anthems, the laser pointer at Schmeichel's face, the drunkeness and violence at Wembley, the list goes on and on. The racist public, happily latching onto the team's success, but backing slashing overseas aid and ever harsher immigration rules because nothing makes them happier than punching down at foreigners. Our shitshow of a government, trying to keep their vilest voters happy by cricitising the team for taking the knee, then trying to act all innocent when the very same people heap abuse on the black players. Trying to tie the pitch success to Brexit, because FFS.
So for Europeans who wanted England-the-team to lose to Italy because England-the-country didn't deserve to have them win... yeah, I was feeling some of that myself, and ultimately am glad Johnson doesn't get to try and steal some reflected glory.
The only moment that came across as weirdly ungracious was their near-unanimous stripping off their silver medals as soon as they’d been given them - as hosts of the event, it read almost like a refusal to accept/legitimize the end result.
Losing on penalties is always such a harsh way to lose, especially a final. It puts such emotional weight on the individual penalty takers, when frankly a coin toss would be about as accurate a way to choose who wins. I can see your point, but I'm 100% certain they did it because the medals were a very visible and painful reminder of the conclusion of the last exhausting two hours, the end result, rubbing it in that they had lost, and they just couldn't bear that weight around their neck. Nothing to do with accepting the result as legitimate or not. They're not the first team to do it by a long stretch, and I very much doubt they will be the last.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 6:38 PM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Firstly, because they actually worked as a team on the pitch, and played very well on the whole. (Danish penalty aside). Yes, they looked fairly pedestrian in the 2nd half of the final, but that's because the Italians adapted and kept the ball away from them, and were the even better team. I don't actually follow football that much, but I do watch major men's internationals (I'd watch more of the women's games if I didn't have to pay Murdoch to do so)
But more than that, I'm so proud of them because they've really taken their position of role models to heart and shown collectively a large regard for social justice. Far more than the English nationalist UK government, or indeed a majority in the country. Take the manager's letter before the start of the tournament, their continued insistance on collectively taking the knee despite the boos, criticism and outright abuse - some of it from our slug of a Prime Minister, or f.ex Marcus Rashford successfully shaming the government into action on child food poverty - twice.
England as a country though... hoo boy, we do not deserve such a young, talented, diverse and socially active team. I believe the worst fans are a minority overall, but they make the experience so much worse for everyone. Heaping racist abuse on the team, booing other team's anthems, the laser pointer at Schmeichel's face, the drunkeness and violence at Wembley, the list goes on and on. The racist public, happily latching onto the team's success, but backing slashing overseas aid and ever harsher immigration rules because nothing makes them happier than punching down at foreigners. Our shitshow of a government, trying to keep their vilest voters happy by cricitising the team for taking the knee, then trying to act all innocent when the very same people heap abuse on the black players. Trying to tie the pitch success to Brexit, because FFS.
So for Europeans who wanted England-the-team to lose to Italy because England-the-country didn't deserve to have them win... yeah, I was feeling some of that myself, and ultimately am glad Johnson doesn't get to try and steal some reflected glory.
The only moment that came across as weirdly ungracious was their near-unanimous stripping off their silver medals as soon as they’d been given them - as hosts of the event, it read almost like a refusal to accept/legitimize the end result.
Losing on penalties is always such a harsh way to lose, especially a final. It puts such emotional weight on the individual penalty takers, when frankly a coin toss would be about as accurate a way to choose who wins. I can see your point, but I'm 100% certain they did it because the medals were a very visible and painful reminder of the conclusion of the last exhausting two hours, the end result, rubbing it in that they had lost, and they just couldn't bear that weight around their neck. Nothing to do with accepting the result as legitimate or not. They're not the first team to do it by a long stretch, and I very much doubt they will be the last.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 6:38 PM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
The only moment that came across as weirdly ungracious was their near-unanimous stripping off their silver medals as soon as they’d been given them - as hosts of the event, it read almost like a refusal to accept/legitimize the end result.This happens in literally every football final where second place medals are awarded apart from possibly the Olympics. It means nothing other than professional athletes not being overly pleased with losing.
HM Leader of the Opposition Marcus Rashford and his teammates seem like thoroughly decent human beings and if there was a way for them to win but the fans, media and the politicians to lose I think that would be the favourite outcome of most of the UK.
posted by fullerine at 6:35 AM on July 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Losing on penalties is always such a harsh way to lose, especially a final. It puts such emotional weight on the individual penalty takers, when frankly a coin toss would be about as accurate a way to choose who wins.
Penalty taking is a skill and its place during regular time isn't really questioned so it isn't exactly some arbitrary way of determining who wins. That being said, for the final of a tournament they could just keep playing periods of extra time until someone wins. It would also eliminate teams playing for penalties for the last minutes of regular time and all of extra time. Wouldn't work for earlier rounds because the players will be at a disadvantage for the next game but the next game after the final isn't until what, August?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:21 PM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Penalty taking is a skill and its place during regular time isn't really questioned so it isn't exactly some arbitrary way of determining who wins. That being said, for the final of a tournament they could just keep playing periods of extra time until someone wins. It would also eliminate teams playing for penalties for the last minutes of regular time and all of extra time. Wouldn't work for earlier rounds because the players will be at a disadvantage for the next game but the next game after the final isn't until what, August?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:21 PM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
> if there was a way for them to win but the fans, media and the politicians to lose I think that would be the favourite outcome of most of the UK.
I think this is a bold assumption given that somewhere between 42% and 61% of the UK's population watched the game.
> Penalty taking is a skill and its place during regular time isn't really questioned so it isn't exactly some arbitrary way of determining who wins.
Both 538 and The Economist (where this article was originally posted) disagree with this.
And even if that is true, it certainly doesn't negate this:
> It puts such emotional weight on the individual penalty takers
posted by stop....hammertime at 1:11 PM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think this is a bold assumption given that somewhere between 42% and 61% of the UK's population watched the game.
> Penalty taking is a skill and its place during regular time isn't really questioned so it isn't exactly some arbitrary way of determining who wins.
Both 538 and The Economist (where this article was originally posted) disagree with this.
And even if that is true, it certainly doesn't negate this:
> It puts such emotional weight on the individual penalty takers
posted by stop....hammertime at 1:11 PM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
the english side seem to all be nice lads, but it's depressing and said something about english national character that as soon as the english lost, my social media feed lit up with black brits asking people to stay safe and away from football fans or describing how they quickly got up and left, and women started sharing stats about domestic violence, safety hotlines, and shelters.
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:59 PM on July 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:59 PM on July 15, 2021 [7 favorites]
Both 538 and The Economist (where this article was originally posted) disagree with this.
Yeah, but they're comparing the likelihood of the favourite winning based on elo ranking, which is largely a measure of performance at regular football. Ideally - and to really make the exercise one that usefully determines whether penalties are effectively random or based on skill - you would compare results to what you would expect based on a comparison of performance at taking penalty shootouts. It's a different skill to playing regulation time football, but it's still a skill.
It's also the one situation where you don't want to be playing at home. The nominated penalty takers are all professionals who can bang a ball into the back of the net from the penalty spot on command in practice. It's really holding your nerve in the pressure of the situation that's the differentiator - and in this tournament, with 60000 hyped England fans breathing down their necks as they walked up from the halfway line, they would've been feeling that a lot more than the Italians.
posted by Dysk at 3:48 PM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but they're comparing the likelihood of the favourite winning based on elo ranking, which is largely a measure of performance at regular football. Ideally - and to really make the exercise one that usefully determines whether penalties are effectively random or based on skill - you would compare results to what you would expect based on a comparison of performance at taking penalty shootouts. It's a different skill to playing regulation time football, but it's still a skill.
It's also the one situation where you don't want to be playing at home. The nominated penalty takers are all professionals who can bang a ball into the back of the net from the penalty spot on command in practice. It's really holding your nerve in the pressure of the situation that's the differentiator - and in this tournament, with 60000 hyped England fans breathing down their necks as they walked up from the halfway line, they would've been feeling that a lot more than the Italians.
posted by Dysk at 3:48 PM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
> Ideally - and to really make the exercise one that usefully determines whether penalties are effectively random or based on skill - you would compare results to what you would expect based on a comparison of performance at taking penalty shootouts. It's a different skill to playing regulation time football, but it's still a skill.
I agree that this would be more rigorous, but I would think that there is a correlation between general footballing skills and technical skills required for taking penalties since players for better teams are likely to be more technically gifted, to be in better physical shape, to have faced more high-pressure situations, to be better trained, and to be more aware of what their opponents are likely to do on a given day.
Two things give me the impression that luck is a large factor is that players are doing far fewer actions than during a game in order to win (and to enable them to capitalise on their skills advantage), and that there are actually quite a large number of variables they can't control for, for example: fatigue, pressure, what their opposite number does in the lead up to the kick/attempted save, which order the teams take penalties in, whether an individual penalty taker's team is ahead when they take or try to save a penalty, what others have done in the shootout prior to them, and how the game has gone for them that day.
One final point - if shootouts were down to skill and outcomes therefore quite predictable, I would expect some teams who are known to be good at penalties to play for penalties, and - without researching this - I'm not confident this happens much. I can only think of a related thing that seems to happen, where teams less expected to win during the game itself opt to play for penalties, and seemingly because the chances will be more like 50/50 for them to win in penalties.
posted by stop....hammertime at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2021
I agree that this would be more rigorous, but I would think that there is a correlation between general footballing skills and technical skills required for taking penalties since players for better teams are likely to be more technically gifted, to be in better physical shape, to have faced more high-pressure situations, to be better trained, and to be more aware of what their opponents are likely to do on a given day.
Two things give me the impression that luck is a large factor is that players are doing far fewer actions than during a game in order to win (and to enable them to capitalise on their skills advantage), and that there are actually quite a large number of variables they can't control for, for example: fatigue, pressure, what their opposite number does in the lead up to the kick/attempted save, which order the teams take penalties in, whether an individual penalty taker's team is ahead when they take or try to save a penalty, what others have done in the shootout prior to them, and how the game has gone for them that day.
One final point - if shootouts were down to skill and outcomes therefore quite predictable, I would expect some teams who are known to be good at penalties to play for penalties, and - without researching this - I'm not confident this happens much. I can only think of a related thing that seems to happen, where teams less expected to win during the game itself opt to play for penalties, and seemingly because the chances will be more like 50/50 for them to win in penalties.
posted by stop....hammertime at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2021
but I would think that there is a correlation between general footballing skills and technical skills required for taking penalties since players for better teams are likely to be more technically gifted, to be in better physical shape, to have faced more high-pressure situations, to be better trained, and to be more aware of what their opponents are likely to do on a given day.
"General footballing skills" is a fairly small part of what makes a team at the top of the game better than another team, though. So much of it is coaching, teamwork, formations, good understanding and communication between players on the pitch, etc, etc. So at a level where you can assume that most teams are comprised of fundamentally decent footballers (like in the knockout stages of a major tournament) I'd posit that penalties are a test of nerve and technical skill, whereas regulation time is mostly a test of teamwork. I just don't think that correlation is as strong as you seem to.
posted by Dysk at 3:32 AM on July 16, 2021
"General footballing skills" is a fairly small part of what makes a team at the top of the game better than another team, though. So much of it is coaching, teamwork, formations, good understanding and communication between players on the pitch, etc, etc. So at a level where you can assume that most teams are comprised of fundamentally decent footballers (like in the knockout stages of a major tournament) I'd posit that penalties are a test of nerve and technical skill, whereas regulation time is mostly a test of teamwork. I just don't think that correlation is as strong as you seem to.
posted by Dysk at 3:32 AM on July 16, 2021
It does always suck to lose at penalties especially in a final – Italy too has had in its history a few significant losses at penalties – and it’s understandable players would feel extremely disappointed, but the point was about taking the silver medals off immediately after receiving them, and that just didn’t look good and was widely criticized on social media even by English supporters. It has been mentioned above that this is not the first time it’s happened but I have never seen or heard of it before by any other team. It’s just a sign of poor sportsmanship and unjustified really because being in the final is still a major achievement and one they should be proud of, especially after dominating the first half and scoring that beautiful goal just two minutes in. It doesn’t set a good example for the fans, really.
Anyhow, back on the topic of fan behaviour, here’s a few more details in the Guardian on the chaos at the entrances for disabled people, and another piece in The Athletic (non-paywalled link here) with commentary on the experience of being among the fans as a woman (see also responses and comments on Twitter).
posted by bitteschoen at 3:33 AM on July 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Anyhow, back on the topic of fan behaviour, here’s a few more details in the Guardian on the chaos at the entrances for disabled people, and another piece in The Athletic (non-paywalled link here) with commentary on the experience of being among the fans as a woman (see also responses and comments on Twitter).
posted by bitteschoen at 3:33 AM on July 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
> "General footballing skills" is a fairly small part of what makes a team at the top of the game better than another team, though. So much of it is coaching, teamwork, formations, good understanding and communication between players on the pitch, etc, etc. So at a level where you can assume that most teams are comprised of fundamentally decent footballers (like in the knockout stages of a major tournament) I'd posit that penalties are a test of nerve and technical skill, whereas regulation time is mostly a test of teamwork. I just don't think that correlation is as strong as you seem to.
I would suggest that the "penalty taking skills" are (at least) largely a subset of the "general footballing skills".
More broadly, I think penalties are decided by a mixture of what you can control well (e.g. skills, tactics) and what you can't control well (e.g. fatigue, pressure, what your opponent does, order of penalties). I suspect the latter are a greater factor than the former (than in normal footballing play).
Penalty shootouts could be likened poker - perhaps over time a player or team can make their own luck, but unlike poker the sample size is very small, so the opportunity to do so is limited.
> that just didn’t look good and was widely criticized on social media even by English supporters
I agree that it doesn't look good, but I think the context of it is that unfortunately football is generally unsportsmanlike, and there were numerous examples of unsportsmanlike behaviour during the Euros. Hopefully the criticism of this practice is taken on board, and more than any criticisms of, for example, diving or timewasting or professional fouls seem to have been taken on board so far. I suppose what differs with this practice is that it's after the game when there is no possibility of affecting the result.
posted by stop....hammertime at 5:14 AM on July 16, 2021
I would suggest that the "penalty taking skills" are (at least) largely a subset of the "general footballing skills".
More broadly, I think penalties are decided by a mixture of what you can control well (e.g. skills, tactics) and what you can't control well (e.g. fatigue, pressure, what your opponent does, order of penalties). I suspect the latter are a greater factor than the former (than in normal footballing play).
Penalty shootouts could be likened poker - perhaps over time a player or team can make their own luck, but unlike poker the sample size is very small, so the opportunity to do so is limited.
> that just didn’t look good and was widely criticized on social media even by English supporters
I agree that it doesn't look good, but I think the context of it is that unfortunately football is generally unsportsmanlike, and there were numerous examples of unsportsmanlike behaviour during the Euros. Hopefully the criticism of this practice is taken on board, and more than any criticisms of, for example, diving or timewasting or professional fouls seem to have been taken on board so far. I suppose what differs with this practice is that it's after the game when there is no possibility of affecting the result.
posted by stop....hammertime at 5:14 AM on July 16, 2021
I mean, if you want to look at everything as being a variable outside your control, sure, penalties look random. But a large part of the skill is dealing with that pressure, and your ability to do that or not is within yourself.
You can't control what cards come up in poker, but you can control how you respond to pressure.
posted by Dysk at 11:35 AM on July 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
You can't control what cards come up in poker, but you can control how you respond to pressure.
posted by Dysk at 11:35 AM on July 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Europa League final this year between Villareal and Manchester United went to penalties. Villareal ended up winning 11-10 when the Manchester goalkeeper missed his penalty. Every other player, including the Villareal goalkeeper had made their penalties and if he had scored I think the players would have to start taking them for a second time. I guess that was a lower pressure situation (less important tournament in a neutral stadium that was 1/4 full) but it was still a bit surprising to me that half of the penalties wouldn't be made in this match.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2021
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2021
> I mean, if you want to look at everything as being a variable outside your control, sure, penalties look random.
I rewatched the penalty shootout in the Euro final, and something occurred to me.
I propose there are possibly four kinds of possible penalty outcomes that rely on total skill or a complete absense thereof, and I would say two of the penalties from the shootout in the final fell under these categories.
For penalty takers:
The unstoppable force - a penalty so good that it can't be saved. Maguire's penalty possibly falls under this category.
The can't hit the object - a penalty that misses the goal altogether. Unfortunately, Rashford's falls under this category.
For goalkeepers:
The can't stop any force - a keeper who is so unskilled that they can't save any penalty. I think that this can be ruled out, as any person standing in the middle of the goal could occasionally save a penalty.
The immovable object - a keeper who cannot be beaten. Don't think there is such a thing here either.
I think this is a roundabout way of saying that, I think, penalty takers will have more impact on the results of penalties if it is largely about skill, but if it is largely about skill and also a realistic skill for a penalty taker to have, then why aren't there more unsaveable penalties?
Where a goalkeeper's skill comes in is if the penalty taker hits a penalty that can be saved and the keeper dives the right way (or correctly chooses not to dive). Apparently they have to choose prior to a penalty taker kicking the ball to reliably be able to get to the ball, which sounds like shades of knowing the penalty taker's previous penalties, general game theory and complete guesswork, but apparently patterns of shot selection are typically indistinguishable from a purely random draw, which sounds like guessing might be as good a strategy as any.
Tiny sample size, and this is the possibly the problem in general here but I totted up the number of penalties taken by the scorers and the missers in the Euro final (prior to the shootout), and the scorers scored 90/106 = 85% of penalties prior to the final, and the missers scored 87/103 = 84% of penalties prior to the final, which I think also doesn't show a pattern of known skill having a clear impact.
> it was still a bit surprising to me that half of the penalties wouldn't be made in this match
Perhaps fatigue also played a greater role in the Euro final because it was at the end of an intense championship after a long season for many of the players.
posted by stop....hammertime at 1:48 PM on July 16, 2021
I rewatched the penalty shootout in the Euro final, and something occurred to me.
I propose there are possibly four kinds of possible penalty outcomes that rely on total skill or a complete absense thereof, and I would say two of the penalties from the shootout in the final fell under these categories.
For penalty takers:
The unstoppable force - a penalty so good that it can't be saved. Maguire's penalty possibly falls under this category.
The can't hit the object - a penalty that misses the goal altogether. Unfortunately, Rashford's falls under this category.
For goalkeepers:
The can't stop any force - a keeper who is so unskilled that they can't save any penalty. I think that this can be ruled out, as any person standing in the middle of the goal could occasionally save a penalty.
The immovable object - a keeper who cannot be beaten. Don't think there is such a thing here either.
I think this is a roundabout way of saying that, I think, penalty takers will have more impact on the results of penalties if it is largely about skill, but if it is largely about skill and also a realistic skill for a penalty taker to have, then why aren't there more unsaveable penalties?
Where a goalkeeper's skill comes in is if the penalty taker hits a penalty that can be saved and the keeper dives the right way (or correctly chooses not to dive). Apparently they have to choose prior to a penalty taker kicking the ball to reliably be able to get to the ball, which sounds like shades of knowing the penalty taker's previous penalties, general game theory and complete guesswork, but apparently patterns of shot selection are typically indistinguishable from a purely random draw, which sounds like guessing might be as good a strategy as any.
Tiny sample size, and this is the possibly the problem in general here but I totted up the number of penalties taken by the scorers and the missers in the Euro final (prior to the shootout), and the scorers scored 90/106 = 85% of penalties prior to the final, and the missers scored 87/103 = 84% of penalties prior to the final, which I think also doesn't show a pattern of known skill having a clear impact.
> it was still a bit surprising to me that half of the penalties wouldn't be made in this match
Perhaps fatigue also played a greater role in the Euro final because it was at the end of an intense championship after a long season for many of the players.
posted by stop....hammertime at 1:48 PM on July 16, 2021
‘Wembley variant’: England fans report soaring Covid cases after gathering for Euro 2020 final
I'm locked in to this country with these people.
posted by Grangousier at 3:48 AM on July 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm locked in to this country with these people.
posted by Grangousier at 3:48 AM on July 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
about the runner-up medals thing, here's a (perfunctorily) translated all-rounder from an Italian news outlet on the story. Some upshots: Henderson and Kane kept theirs on, so it wasn't a team choice; it's a fairly recent but growing trend, and thus likely unlinked to how this final was lost (on PK's), but rather that it was; to think it's fair sportsmanship just shows how the definition of that is shifting to favour individual players' protagonism and bitterness.
posted by progosk at 6:56 AM on July 17, 2021
posted by progosk at 6:56 AM on July 17, 2021
err. corr.: Henderson and Kane Southgate kept theirs on
posted by progosk at 7:15 AM on July 17, 2021
posted by progosk at 7:15 AM on July 17, 2021
> I'm locked in to this country with these people.
Especially disconcerting given that there's been this behaviour before restrictions are even lifted next week, and the government talk like they're expecting enough people to be sensible and use their discretion going forwards.
> about the runner-up medals thing
Guarlidola recently did very much the opposite following the Champions League final, and kissed the runners-up medal. This was received very differently in different quarters.
With removing a runners-up medal, Mourinho is probably the worst offender so far.
Not sure what punishment could be given, but think it would make sense to discipline players/staff who remove their medals (before leaving the field play) for unsportsmanlike conduct.
posted by stop....hammertime at 8:26 AM on July 17, 2021
Especially disconcerting given that there's been this behaviour before restrictions are even lifted next week, and the government talk like they're expecting enough people to be sensible and use their discretion going forwards.
> about the runner-up medals thing
Guarlidola recently did very much the opposite following the Champions League final, and kissed the runners-up medal. This was received very differently in different quarters.
With removing a runners-up medal, Mourinho is probably the worst offender so far.
Not sure what punishment could be given, but think it would make sense to discipline players/staff who remove their medals (before leaving the field play) for unsportsmanlike conduct.
posted by stop....hammertime at 8:26 AM on July 17, 2021
Could be being unfair to Mourinho as it turns out, as he has done the same with a winners medal.
posted by stop....hammertime at 8:34 AM on July 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by stop....hammertime at 8:34 AM on July 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Especially disconcerting given that there's been this behaviour before restrictions are even lifted next week, and the government talk like they're expecting enough people to be sensible and use their discretion going forwards.
If Covid evolved sentience, took over the British government and turned Britain's resources to helping Covid, in what ways would the resulting policies differ from the ones we are seeing now?
posted by acb at 3:28 AM on July 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
If Covid evolved sentience, took over the British government and turned Britain's resources to helping Covid, in what ways would the resulting policies differ from the ones we are seeing now?
posted by acb at 3:28 AM on July 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
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