Flipping people: upgrading and dating
July 13, 2021 9:11 AM Subscribe
What happens when people constantly upgrade love? NY Times author Kelly Sundberg is tired of "flipping men": bonding with men who then immediately dump her and commit to others. This seems especially cruel for those who have been with someone during a sickness, unemployment, or during a rough time.
The shopping/upgrading mentality might have some roots in capitalism: everything is a market, why not love? Modern dating and relationship games seem to beat the hope out of decent people.
man, am I glad I met my wife at the turn of the century. modern dating sounds hellish
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:38 AM on July 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:38 AM on July 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
What happens when people constantly upgrade love?
If you aren't putting some of those stat points towards dexterity and endurance, you might end up sorely disappointed by your build results.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:44 AM on July 13, 2021 [72 favorites]
If you aren't putting some of those stat points towards dexterity and endurance, you might end up sorely disappointed by your build results.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:44 AM on July 13, 2021 [72 favorites]
Archived link for Dr. Sundberg's NYT Modern Love essay. Excerpt, bolding added: Then, at 40, I met Rich. He was sitting across a bar and looked like he was 25 (he turned out to be 32). Tall and skinny with kind eyes, he felt safe to me, like someone I would never really fall for — not in the way where I lost control. [...] And what does it say about me that when a relationship starts to get good is when the dread creeps in? What does it say about my history of heartbreak that I assume men will leave me when they finally learn how to love me? In horror movies, things are always calmest just before the monster springs from the closet. I have spent most of my adult life anticipating monsters. And they arrived. In January last year, just before the pandemic, he had a crisis of faith and broke up with me. [...]
It turned out that he missed me too, so in July, while my son was at his father’s place for a long summer stretch, we got back together, and we were honest with each other — that we didn’t know where our lives were going, but we could be committed to each other while holding space for that unknowing. [...] Still, he has told me that he thinks he wants to have children someday, and more children are not in my future. The monsters loom. I have to live with this unknowing. My endurance keeps me here: Watching the train and hoping that it will jump the tracks. He told me the other day, “You’ve helped me grow so much. I’m a different person than I was when I met you.” I know it’s true, and when I look at him, I can see his future with someone very lucky, which is why I don’t want to flip this one just yet. Maybe, this time, that very lucky person will be me.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
It turned out that he missed me too, so in July, while my son was at his father’s place for a long summer stretch, we got back together, and we were honest with each other — that we didn’t know where our lives were going, but we could be committed to each other while holding space for that unknowing. [...] Still, he has told me that he thinks he wants to have children someday, and more children are not in my future. The monsters loom. I have to live with this unknowing. My endurance keeps me here: Watching the train and hoping that it will jump the tracks. He told me the other day, “You’ve helped me grow so much. I’m a different person than I was when I met you.” I know it’s true, and when I look at him, I can see his future with someone very lucky, which is why I don’t want to flip this one just yet. Maybe, this time, that very lucky person will be me.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
For their part, men are more likely than women to say technology is a reason dating has gotten harder.
"It's so much easier for women to figure out I'm a raging shitheel when my entire life is online for everyone to see and I'm too much of a fucking idiot to not post MAGA-memes on my Facebook feed."
Let's be real, this is the actual subtext.
Men – especially older men – and Republicans are more likely than women and Democrats to say it’s harder for men to know how to act when dating in the era of the #MeToo movement, though majorities across the board express this view.
This blows my fucking mind. I don't know, maybe "how you act" is you treat them like a living, breathing human being with their own desires and values that deserve acknowledgement and respect.
No small wonder I have very rarely gotten along with other men in this shithole country.
---
An example of capitalism driving relationships: I once casually dated a woman with bi-polar and other health issues. She was incredibly intelligent and pursuing her Masters. I was working blue collar jobs. She made it clear that the relationship wouldn't go anywhere because she knew how costly her diseases would be in her life, and she absolutely needed a partner who could help support her and her costly struggles. She told herself literally couldn't date someone like myself, even if I was her perfect match otherwise because the economics of it just wouldn't line up. Lots of people are faced with these kind of romantic decisions, where they often enter into relationships for economic (read: capitalism) reasons than romantic ones. I really do hope she found someone who could be what she needed, but I also always think "Wouldn't this whole problem just be solved by universal healthcare and then she wouldn't have to spend her life focusing on who could support her financially for her medical problems?"
Things have gotten harder and they are driven by the twisted nature of capitalism.
---
Don't get me started on how dating sites don't actually want you to succeed in finding someone because then you stop paying them money. Add to that the litany of painfully fake profiles, and you start wondering whether or not you could hit them with false advertising, since it's very likely the owners of the site are creating the fake profiles to make it seem like people actually use their app.
Capitalism ruins everything.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [93 favorites]
"It's so much easier for women to figure out I'm a raging shitheel when my entire life is online for everyone to see and I'm too much of a fucking idiot to not post MAGA-memes on my Facebook feed."
Let's be real, this is the actual subtext.
Men – especially older men – and Republicans are more likely than women and Democrats to say it’s harder for men to know how to act when dating in the era of the #MeToo movement, though majorities across the board express this view.
This blows my fucking mind. I don't know, maybe "how you act" is you treat them like a living, breathing human being with their own desires and values that deserve acknowledgement and respect.
No small wonder I have very rarely gotten along with other men in this shithole country.
---
An example of capitalism driving relationships: I once casually dated a woman with bi-polar and other health issues. She was incredibly intelligent and pursuing her Masters. I was working blue collar jobs. She made it clear that the relationship wouldn't go anywhere because she knew how costly her diseases would be in her life, and she absolutely needed a partner who could help support her and her costly struggles. She told herself literally couldn't date someone like myself, even if I was her perfect match otherwise because the economics of it just wouldn't line up. Lots of people are faced with these kind of romantic decisions, where they often enter into relationships for economic (read: capitalism) reasons than romantic ones. I really do hope she found someone who could be what she needed, but I also always think "Wouldn't this whole problem just be solved by universal healthcare and then she wouldn't have to spend her life focusing on who could support her financially for her medical problems?"
Things have gotten harder and they are driven by the twisted nature of capitalism.
---
Don't get me started on how dating sites don't actually want you to succeed in finding someone because then you stop paying them money. Add to that the litany of painfully fake profiles, and you start wondering whether or not you could hit them with false advertising, since it's very likely the owners of the site are creating the fake profiles to make it seem like people actually use their app.
Capitalism ruins everything.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [93 favorites]
I found the story terribly sad--it certainly doesn't sound like the relationship with Rich is going to end up like she'd hoped.
posted by orrnyereg at 9:50 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 9:50 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
A solid relationship or marriage is complicated and has so many tangible benefits, but the road to it is rough.
Hope it doesn't come off as generic dating complaints. I'm glad to see more thoughtful research and feedback on how dating and marriage affect people, including single and divorced people. The author has also written about domestic violence in marriage.
posted by Freecola at 10:02 AM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
Hope it doesn't come off as generic dating complaints. I'm glad to see more thoughtful research and feedback on how dating and marriage affect people, including single and divorced people. The author has also written about domestic violence in marriage.
posted by Freecola at 10:02 AM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's very revealing to see conservatives complain about how non-conservatives won't date them. Of course, they non-conservatives to shut up, they want to be able to say that, eg, women are inferior while still dating women who keep their mouths shut, say that immigrants should be deported while dating a child of immigrants who will just giggle coyly, etc. But also, they don't want intimacy, they don't want shared values, they don't want a relationship where you're actually close to someone because you have common experiences. Like, their vision of relationships is a cold power struggle.
And you see this in conservative views about gender - wives as killjoys/manners enforcers, men-are-horndogs-women-hate-sex, everyone always hates their partner's relatives, fathers like sons best and find daughters incomprehensible and vapid. Men and women, bound together by social forces and intermittent, unequal sexual desire, trapped in the same house hating and resenting each other, the men trying to get away with drinking, boozing and cheating, the women trying to get away with shopping and saying no to sex - it's how things have always been and always will be! And everyone should get married!
So naturally, the idea that you would want to date someone who hated your ideas and found them stupid at best and genocidal at worst is just another variant on the whole "men and women already hate each other and feel trapped by marriage but get married anyway" deal.
There are so many ways in which humans generally choose misery because the non-misery options would require change and change is too psychically threatening.
posted by Frowner at 10:10 AM on July 13, 2021 [142 favorites]
And you see this in conservative views about gender - wives as killjoys/manners enforcers, men-are-horndogs-women-hate-sex, everyone always hates their partner's relatives, fathers like sons best and find daughters incomprehensible and vapid. Men and women, bound together by social forces and intermittent, unequal sexual desire, trapped in the same house hating and resenting each other, the men trying to get away with drinking, boozing and cheating, the women trying to get away with shopping and saying no to sex - it's how things have always been and always will be! And everyone should get married!
So naturally, the idea that you would want to date someone who hated your ideas and found them stupid at best and genocidal at worst is just another variant on the whole "men and women already hate each other and feel trapped by marriage but get married anyway" deal.
There are so many ways in which humans generally choose misery because the non-misery options would require change and change is too psychically threatening.
posted by Frowner at 10:10 AM on July 13, 2021 [142 favorites]
(Note that the men in my comment above are trying to get away with both drinking and boozing, so you know it's a serious issue. Or at least that the edit window is closed now.)
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on July 13, 2021 [54 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on July 13, 2021 [54 favorites]
The word "love" should not appear in this discourse. I think the editors put it in there to attract the clicks.
It's all about sexual and domestic labor privilege as well as having an arbitrarily super desirable partner to enhance social status.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 10:21 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
It's all about sexual and domestic labor privilege as well as having an arbitrarily super desirable partner to enhance social status.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 10:21 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
I dunno, if people are having more LTRs before settling down I'm not sure "capitalism ruins everything" is entirely the cause. I can think of a couple of other reasons:
1. More people at some point enter therapy thanks to it being less stigmatized and more likely to be covered (at least partially) by health insurance. And therapy often leads to being reevaluating their life, including their partner.
2. People are having kids later in life. It's so much easier to leave a "meh" relationship when no kids are involved.
3. While sexism isn't gone, women on average on far more spending power than they did a couple decades ago. As a result, less women find themselves stuck in bad relationships simply because they can't afford to breakup.
4. Based on what my parents have told me, for Boomers there was still a sense that living together pre-marriage was "living in sin" even if plenty of people did it (like my parents). Now it's pretty unusual and for the most part limited to certain religious communities for people to not live together before marriage. And so thankfully, most people can figure out potential problems before they get the courts involved or have to face the potential stigma of divorce.
All of which is to say, I don't quite buy the idea that there is a rise in people going around looking to "upgrade" their romantic partner so much as people are perhaps less likely to stay in relationships that aren't working anymore. Which seems like a good thing.
posted by coffeecat at 10:43 AM on July 13, 2021 [48 favorites]
1. More people at some point enter therapy thanks to it being less stigmatized and more likely to be covered (at least partially) by health insurance. And therapy often leads to being reevaluating their life, including their partner.
2. People are having kids later in life. It's so much easier to leave a "meh" relationship when no kids are involved.
3. While sexism isn't gone, women on average on far more spending power than they did a couple decades ago. As a result, less women find themselves stuck in bad relationships simply because they can't afford to breakup.
4. Based on what my parents have told me, for Boomers there was still a sense that living together pre-marriage was "living in sin" even if plenty of people did it (like my parents). Now it's pretty unusual and for the most part limited to certain religious communities for people to not live together before marriage. And so thankfully, most people can figure out potential problems before they get the courts involved or have to face the potential stigma of divorce.
All of which is to say, I don't quite buy the idea that there is a rise in people going around looking to "upgrade" their romantic partner so much as people are perhaps less likely to stay in relationships that aren't working anymore. Which seems like a good thing.
posted by coffeecat at 10:43 AM on July 13, 2021 [48 favorites]
Ugh I so understand this, have flipped a few men in my day.
I'm in what I hope is the beginning of a relationship right now, and I did meet him on an app (Hinge, for anyone keeping score). We're in our mid-late 40's and I know that if he ends it, I won't die, and other than emotionally I'll probably only be minorly inconvenienced, let's be real. But the desire to find a real partner makes me forget that, and make the stakes super high.
He's pretty great. Eek.
posted by wellred at 10:57 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm in what I hope is the beginning of a relationship right now, and I did meet him on an app (Hinge, for anyone keeping score). We're in our mid-late 40's and I know that if he ends it, I won't die, and other than emotionally I'll probably only be minorly inconvenienced, let's be real. But the desire to find a real partner makes me forget that, and make the stakes super high.
He's pretty great. Eek.
posted by wellred at 10:57 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
sheydem-tants, I don't think people pick a partner to increase their social status. They seek social status to find a better partner.
OP, please post unpaywalled links. Without them we don't RTFA and just muse about the topic at hand
posted by Sterros at 11:10 AM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
OP, please post unpaywalled links. Without them we don't RTFA and just muse about the topic at hand
posted by Sterros at 11:10 AM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Seems like that depends on who has the social status and who is the better partner, no? If I have A, I'd trade it for B and vice versa. People trade sex for money all the time whether it's one night or a marriage. My fiancé works at a golf country club and sees it on the daily.
It's really tough but rewarding work to try to be a complete, kind, the world is a bit better for me in it person. Most people find shouting, blaming literally anything else but what might be the problem and abuse a lot easier. I haven't found this super splits along gender lines, but I am watching our beautiful new cat who was a stray raise 4 kittens and wondering where the fat old tomcat who did this to her is. Probably out being a fat old tomcat. So women, you really get the shit end of the stick and have more going on in this arena. I know we are generally trash.
And what does it say about me that when a relationship starts to get good is when the dread creeps in?
If you're used to bad patterns and situations, it's really uncomfortable to have one that isn't conforming.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 11:24 AM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's really tough but rewarding work to try to be a complete, kind, the world is a bit better for me in it person. Most people find shouting, blaming literally anything else but what might be the problem and abuse a lot easier. I haven't found this super splits along gender lines, but I am watching our beautiful new cat who was a stray raise 4 kittens and wondering where the fat old tomcat who did this to her is. Probably out being a fat old tomcat. So women, you really get the shit end of the stick and have more going on in this arena. I know we are generally trash.
And what does it say about me that when a relationship starts to get good is when the dread creeps in?
If you're used to bad patterns and situations, it's really uncomfortable to have one that isn't conforming.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 11:24 AM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
As a saying goes, people prefer the certainty of misery to the misery of uncertainty.
posted by Drastic at 11:31 AM on July 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by Drastic at 11:31 AM on July 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
"Add to that the litany of painfully fake profiles, and you start wondering whether or not you could hit them with false advertising, since it's very likely the owners of the site are creating the fake profiles to make it seem like people actually use their app."
In the mid-2000s, I had an acquaintance who owned a large number of dating sites. Not only did the companies create many fake profiles, but they also had bots to simulate conversation and interest to make them seem real.
posted by jordantwodelta at 11:34 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
In the mid-2000s, I had an acquaintance who owned a large number of dating sites. Not only did the companies create many fake profiles, but they also had bots to simulate conversation and interest to make them seem real.
posted by jordantwodelta at 11:34 AM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Starting a relationship with the idea of "fixing up" someone is bound to end poorly. Easier said then done, I realize, but try finding someone you can accept in their current condition.
posted by mikeand1 at 11:41 AM on July 13, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by mikeand1 at 11:41 AM on July 13, 2021 [22 favorites]
Starting a relationship with the idea of "fixing up" someone is bound to end poorly.
I had to wonder how the partners involved would feel about being thought of as "fixer-uppers", "undesirable", "stunted", etc.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [21 favorites]
I had to wonder how the partners involved would feel about being thought of as "fixer-uppers", "undesirable", "stunted", etc.
posted by Klipspringer at 11:49 AM on July 13, 2021 [21 favorites]
but try finding someone you can accept in their current condition.
I actually really like this sentiment, but I would like to add that you should also be prepared for their condition to change (possibly deteriorate), because we are humans, we are living things, and we are always changing. Accepting them as they are is important, but you can't be like that one woman's doctor husband who bailed on her when she contracted cancer and told her "we haven't been a real couple since your diagnosis" (my fucking god I wanted to punch the guy through the computer screen). You have to be willing to accept changes they didn't ask for as well. Especially when they need support due to those unexpected changes.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:50 AM on July 13, 2021 [21 favorites]
I actually really like this sentiment, but I would like to add that you should also be prepared for their condition to change (possibly deteriorate), because we are humans, we are living things, and we are always changing. Accepting them as they are is important, but you can't be like that one woman's doctor husband who bailed on her when she contracted cancer and told her "we haven't been a real couple since your diagnosis" (my fucking god I wanted to punch the guy through the computer screen). You have to be willing to accept changes they didn't ask for as well. Especially when they need support due to those unexpected changes.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:50 AM on July 13, 2021 [21 favorites]
if capitalism ruins everything, why are non-capitalist societies imperfect? Have people been secretly practising capitalism?
posted by philip-random at 12:02 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:02 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Well, I mean no one said capitalism was the only thing-ruiner.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:10 PM on July 13, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 12:10 PM on July 13, 2021 [22 favorites]
you're not really making me feel any better by basically saying "well rich women are doing better, amirite??"
That's fine, because that's not at all what I said. In my own experience, my parents and their social circle (Boomers) grew up mostly middle class though some have working class backgrounds. In all cases, within the couples it was the men who earned more. Now with their kids (Millennials), those that have partnered up include some couples where each person earns about the same, some where the man earns more, and some where the woman earns more. None of my data points here are rich, and I hate "Lean In" feminism as much as anyone.
But my point really is just that regardless of what class a woman fits into, today she's more likely than previously to belong to that class not just because her partner's earnings but due to her own earnings as well. Of course there are exceptions! I by no means said that no women are currently stuck in relationships due to money, just less than 20 years ago.
posted by coffeecat at 12:14 PM on July 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
That's fine, because that's not at all what I said. In my own experience, my parents and their social circle (Boomers) grew up mostly middle class though some have working class backgrounds. In all cases, within the couples it was the men who earned more. Now with their kids (Millennials), those that have partnered up include some couples where each person earns about the same, some where the man earns more, and some where the woman earns more. None of my data points here are rich, and I hate "Lean In" feminism as much as anyone.
But my point really is just that regardless of what class a woman fits into, today she's more likely than previously to belong to that class not just because her partner's earnings but due to her own earnings as well. Of course there are exceptions! I by no means said that no women are currently stuck in relationships due to money, just less than 20 years ago.
posted by coffeecat at 12:14 PM on July 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
Exactly, capitalism is mostly just antithetical to democracy and wants to weave its way in between all human relationships, making them transactional in nature.
While other economic systems aren't necessarily "better" by any stretch for human rights and the environment, capitalism seems to be the only one that truly tries to make all human interaction purely financially transactional, attempting to remove any and all real human emotion and treating one another like human beings. Everything is intended to be cold, rational financial calculations and nothing else.
In other words, this kind of behavior is particularly incentivized in capitalism in ways it is not in other economic systems. So much that you can say the profit motive driven by capitalism "ruins things" and it doesn't mean that other economic systems aren't, to an extent, also ruining things.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:15 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
While other economic systems aren't necessarily "better" by any stretch for human rights and the environment, capitalism seems to be the only one that truly tries to make all human interaction purely financially transactional, attempting to remove any and all real human emotion and treating one another like human beings. Everything is intended to be cold, rational financial calculations and nothing else.
In other words, this kind of behavior is particularly incentivized in capitalism in ways it is not in other economic systems. So much that you can say the profit motive driven by capitalism "ruins things" and it doesn't mean that other economic systems aren't, to an extent, also ruining things.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:15 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
man, am I glad I met my wife at the turn of the century. modern dating sounds hellish
Someone says this in every thread about dating. Please don't. It doesn't add to the conversation (single people know that it's hellish) and it just sounds smug.
Plus, you wouldn't want to tempt fate, right?
posted by punchtothehead at 12:19 PM on July 13, 2021 [74 favorites]
Someone says this in every thread about dating. Please don't. It doesn't add to the conversation (single people know that it's hellish) and it just sounds smug.
Plus, you wouldn't want to tempt fate, right?
posted by punchtothehead at 12:19 PM on July 13, 2021 [74 favorites]
It's important not to romanticize (heh) the olden days. A lot of people in previous generations just stayed in bad relationships because they didn't have any other options. Some of these were bad as in serious abuse, but others were just...I guess this is who I'm spending my life with, eh, could be worse.
Certainly there are some arguments that the old way was better for society (less assortative mating, more stable families) but...would you want to live like that?
posted by goingonit at 12:34 PM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Certainly there are some arguments that the old way was better for society (less assortative mating, more stable families) but...would you want to live like that?
posted by goingonit at 12:34 PM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
if capitalism ruins everything, why are non-capitalist societies imperfect? Have people been secretly practising capitalism?
Well, there was that book a couple of years ago which said that East German women in particular (and IIRC implied a generalization throughout the Eastern Bloc) had better sex lives under communism, because men had to rely on, like, personality and sexual skills instead of having more money to maintain a relationship.
Obviously the more ability women have to earn their own livings the better off they are and the more choice they have in relationships. Once again, I will trot out the old anecdote about Margaret Drabble's sixties and seventies novels - Drabble, a feminist, still wrote male heroes who hit women, mostly women who were financially dependent on them. Doris Lessing also wrote male heroes who hit women, IIRC. Hitting women was so very normal that feminists could envision good men who hit their partners "when sufficiently provoked". Now, I cannot prove why feminists wouldn't write this kind of character today, but I surmise that because women can have their own bank accounts, etc, it is easier for them to leave and therefore while there is still domestic violence, it is no longer so normalized that feminists think it's fine.
Women are better off now in relationships than they were in the nineties when I was a woman dating men. Do not let the incremental nature of the progress and the sad starting point obscure this fact. Things don't have to be fan-fucking-tastic to be a lot better than they were in 1996.
posted by Frowner at 12:42 PM on July 13, 2021 [44 favorites]
Well, there was that book a couple of years ago which said that East German women in particular (and IIRC implied a generalization throughout the Eastern Bloc) had better sex lives under communism, because men had to rely on, like, personality and sexual skills instead of having more money to maintain a relationship.
Obviously the more ability women have to earn their own livings the better off they are and the more choice they have in relationships. Once again, I will trot out the old anecdote about Margaret Drabble's sixties and seventies novels - Drabble, a feminist, still wrote male heroes who hit women, mostly women who were financially dependent on them. Doris Lessing also wrote male heroes who hit women, IIRC. Hitting women was so very normal that feminists could envision good men who hit their partners "when sufficiently provoked". Now, I cannot prove why feminists wouldn't write this kind of character today, but I surmise that because women can have their own bank accounts, etc, it is easier for them to leave and therefore while there is still domestic violence, it is no longer so normalized that feminists think it's fine.
Women are better off now in relationships than they were in the nineties when I was a woman dating men. Do not let the incremental nature of the progress and the sad starting point obscure this fact. Things don't have to be fan-fucking-tastic to be a lot better than they were in 1996.
posted by Frowner at 12:42 PM on July 13, 2021 [44 favorites]
I’m trying to imagine being an actual relationship-flipper, someone who dates entirely to improve and hand over their erstwhile love.
Amateur² therapists. Professional Manic Pixie Dream Girls.
posted by clew at 12:52 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Amateur² therapists. Professional Manic Pixie Dream Girls.
posted by clew at 12:52 PM on July 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
In the mid-2000s, I had an acquaintance who owned a large number of dating sites. Not only did the companies create many fake profiles, but they also had bots to simulate conversation and interest to make them seem real.
These sites didn't happen to all be the same but with city-specific URLS like "rockfordsingles.com" or whatever, were they? With lots of corrugated plastic signs advertising them popping up around major intersections? If so, I'd like to kick your acquaintance's ass.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:54 PM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
These sites didn't happen to all be the same but with city-specific URLS like "rockfordsingles.com" or whatever, were they? With lots of corrugated plastic signs advertising them popping up around major intersections? If so, I'd like to kick your acquaintance's ass.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:54 PM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Amateur² therapists. Professional Manic Pixie Dream Girls.
10x Dating Engineers.
posted by Drastic at 1:00 PM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
10x Dating Engineers.
posted by Drastic at 1:00 PM on July 13, 2021 [5 favorites]
In the mid-2000s, I had an acquaintance who owned a large number of dating sites. Not only did the companies create many fake profiles, but they also had bots to simulate conversation and interest to make them seem real.
None of which would come remotely close to passing a Turing test, I'm sure.
The only data point I can offer is that Facebook is chockablock with obviously fake profiles that vaguely tout sexual services and/or availability that constantly send spam friend requests, and that despite "authenticity" being the first of Facebook's Terms of Service, the site will relentlessly refuse to take down the profiles, as they "don't violate community standards."
They're little more than an annoying waste of time, but they're a constant annoying waste of time that Facebook is just fine with continuing, knowing that they aren't annoying enough to actually make me quit the service. .
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
None of which would come remotely close to passing a Turing test, I'm sure.
The only data point I can offer is that Facebook is chockablock with obviously fake profiles that vaguely tout sexual services and/or availability that constantly send spam friend requests, and that despite "authenticity" being the first of Facebook's Terms of Service, the site will relentlessly refuse to take down the profiles, as they "don't violate community standards."
They're little more than an annoying waste of time, but they're a constant annoying waste of time that Facebook is just fine with continuing, knowing that they aren't annoying enough to actually make me quit the service. .
posted by Gelatin at 1:02 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I mean, one of the side effects of Chinese industrialization (in the late 90s) is that women who migrated from the countryside to the city to work also expanded their social and dating world. They weren't limited in dating people in their home village and their higher earning power made them independent from their families or even became de facto family heads as they were able to send money back home. That combined with the higher ratio of men to women because of the legacy of the One Child Policy has given more power to women and that includes in dating and relationships.
Also, dating is a market. It's not the only way that people set up relationships, but the alternative of having family arrange things isn't great either.
posted by FJT at 1:03 PM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Also, dating is a market. It's not the only way that people set up relationships, but the alternative of having family arrange things isn't great either.
posted by FJT at 1:03 PM on July 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Well for my part I was just glad the article ended on a somewhat up note because after reading halfway I was afraid the author was just going to end the essay saying they'd likely die alone.
posted by GuyZero at 1:38 PM on July 13, 2021
posted by GuyZero at 1:38 PM on July 13, 2021
I was afraid the author was just going to end the essay saying they'd likely die alone.
Even if you're in a relationship, one of you will almost certainly "die alone" since it's unlikely you and your significant other will die at the same time.
I'd really like to see "die alone" retired, as it suggests only romantic relationships count. I don't have an SO, but I have children, sisters, and friends.
posted by FencingGal at 1:54 PM on July 13, 2021 [40 favorites]
Even if you're in a relationship, one of you will almost certainly "die alone" since it's unlikely you and your significant other will die at the same time.
I'd really like to see "die alone" retired, as it suggests only romantic relationships count. I don't have an SO, but I have children, sisters, and friends.
posted by FencingGal at 1:54 PM on July 13, 2021 [40 favorites]
man, am I glad I met my wife at the turn of the century. modern dating sounds hellish
Someone says this in every thread about dating. Please don't.
Apologies for repeating another comment that is always in these threads, probably by me: Boo fucking hoo. She got married. She has a kid. People want to date her. Some of us have had the whole "men just used us to find someone else" without those wonderful experiences. Sure, maybe it'll work out. Maybe it won't. Maybe you'll die alone, as GuyZero says. It's all just a crapshoot, isn't it.
posted by Melismata at 1:54 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Someone says this in every thread about dating. Please don't.
Apologies for repeating another comment that is always in these threads, probably by me: Boo fucking hoo. She got married. She has a kid. People want to date her. Some of us have had the whole "men just used us to find someone else" without those wonderful experiences. Sure, maybe it'll work out. Maybe it won't. Maybe you'll die alone, as GuyZero says. It's all just a crapshoot, isn't it.
posted by Melismata at 1:54 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
if capitalism ruins everything, why are non-capitalist societies imperfect?
This is actually a poor choice of argument when it comes to women's issues, because - let alone anarchist feminism - even some of the worst, most authoritarian communist regimes (Maoist China, Stalinist Russia) saw massive improvements in gender parity compared to the previous social norms in these places, and even compared to the West.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:04 PM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
This is actually a poor choice of argument when it comes to women's issues, because - let alone anarchist feminism - even some of the worst, most authoritarian communist regimes (Maoist China, Stalinist Russia) saw massive improvements in gender parity compared to the previous social norms in these places, and even compared to the West.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:04 PM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Apologies for repeating another comment that is always in these threads, probably by me: Boo fucking hoo. She got married. She has a kid. People want to date her. Some of us have had the whole "men just used us to find someone else" without those wonderful experiences.
Often concur, but can't in this particular instance. Sundberg gave a brief account of her hellish marriage in her Guernica piece, "It Will Look Like A Sunset" (later anthologized in The Best American Essays 2015), and went into greater detail in her 2018 NYT bestselling memoir, Goodbye, Sweet Girl (A Story of Domestic Violence and Survival).
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:30 PM on July 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
Often concur, but can't in this particular instance. Sundberg gave a brief account of her hellish marriage in her Guernica piece, "It Will Look Like A Sunset" (later anthologized in The Best American Essays 2015), and went into greater detail in her 2018 NYT bestselling memoir, Goodbye, Sweet Girl (A Story of Domestic Violence and Survival).
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:30 PM on July 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
Bitching about dating apps is trite and tired and doesn't reflect the realities that many, many people never pay a penny to them, and many many long-term couples have successfully met using them. These totalizing arguments - and the couple of apparently fury-filled comments above - just seem to miss the point of the original essay. It's like unloading on singles bars. Gee, a less than ideal setting to meet someone? Who'd have thought?
Since the beginning of time humans have had challenges finding and sustaining romantic relationships, and various societies have had very different relationship models. The essayist is talking about her own patterns, her own self-revelations, and how hard it is to be an imperfect human trying to match with another imperfect human. I found it a touching, tentative and hopeful essay, which didn't seem well suited to cite as an indictment of Capitalism.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:43 PM on July 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
Since the beginning of time humans have had challenges finding and sustaining romantic relationships, and various societies have had very different relationship models. The essayist is talking about her own patterns, her own self-revelations, and how hard it is to be an imperfect human trying to match with another imperfect human. I found it a touching, tentative and hopeful essay, which didn't seem well suited to cite as an indictment of Capitalism.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:43 PM on July 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
Fittingly, Paweł Pawlikowski's 2018 film Cold War shows that relationships are difficult and both Communism and Capitalism are shit. But at least the main couple figured out a way to be together forever, so that's romantic. Right?
posted by FJT at 2:49 PM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by FJT at 2:49 PM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't doubt that DATING is way harder due to apps, because of the plethora of apparent choices.
Still...in the late 90s/ early 00s I was involved in Lavalife, back when it was Lavalife, and got reports on Canadian seniors' dating patterns because we got kickbacks from the seniors we signed up. Part of the data was search parameter data & it was incredibly disheartening to see that 87% of men over 50 set their parameters to "18-40" and 85% of women selected 5 years younger than themselves to 20 years older. Like, ew. (Capitalism wise however we made a killing because we got a "female bounty" and extra profit share on paid activity of those women and...seniors over 50, just tend to be a lot more women. I am re-depressed just thinking about it.)
RELATIONSHIPS though...I'm not sure where or when the relationship utopia is supposed to exist or have existed. For brevity I deleted a roundup of Fucked Relationships In The Pre-Internet Era but whoooooo boy my family and experience is full of examples.
But at the point your narrative is "I find fixer uppers, fix them, and pass them on to other women" then I think it's personal. And personal is okay, I feel such empathy for her, and her ability to communicate her ambiguity about this particular relationship and how she's seeing so many red flags and won't hope it will last but kind of does is so human.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:02 PM on July 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
Still...in the late 90s/ early 00s I was involved in Lavalife, back when it was Lavalife, and got reports on Canadian seniors' dating patterns because we got kickbacks from the seniors we signed up. Part of the data was search parameter data & it was incredibly disheartening to see that 87% of men over 50 set their parameters to "18-40" and 85% of women selected 5 years younger than themselves to 20 years older. Like, ew. (Capitalism wise however we made a killing because we got a "female bounty" and extra profit share on paid activity of those women and...seniors over 50, just tend to be a lot more women. I am re-depressed just thinking about it.)
RELATIONSHIPS though...I'm not sure where or when the relationship utopia is supposed to exist or have existed. For brevity I deleted a roundup of Fucked Relationships In The Pre-Internet Era but whoooooo boy my family and experience is full of examples.
But at the point your narrative is "I find fixer uppers, fix them, and pass them on to other women" then I think it's personal. And personal is okay, I feel such empathy for her, and her ability to communicate her ambiguity about this particular relationship and how she's seeing so many red flags and won't hope it will last but kind of does is so human.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:02 PM on July 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
Iris Gambol's link above makes this part much darker:
After those two heartbreaks, my friends joked that my secret talent was teaching men how to love someone — just not me. I thought I had broken the pattern when I married, but the man who became my husband turned out to be mercurial and cruel. We had a child together, but as hard as I tried, I was never able to fix him. At least not for me.
After our divorce, he married a woman a decade my junior, and I wondered if all the work I had done making him own up to his behavior and understand the need to change would mean that his new wife would be spared the mistreatment I received. I wished a calmer marriage for her, which they appear to have achieved.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:46 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
After those two heartbreaks, my friends joked that my secret talent was teaching men how to love someone — just not me. I thought I had broken the pattern when I married, but the man who became my husband turned out to be mercurial and cruel. We had a child together, but as hard as I tried, I was never able to fix him. At least not for me.
After our divorce, he married a woman a decade my junior, and I wondered if all the work I had done making him own up to his behavior and understand the need to change would mean that his new wife would be spared the mistreatment I received. I wished a calmer marriage for her, which they appear to have achieved.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:46 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
She gets to frame her own story, but I'd hardly equate trying to get your husband to stop abusing you with "fixing" him.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:49 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:49 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
^Yeah. The husband wasn't a fixer, he was an abuser. And maybe since then, it's been "I find fixer uppers, fix them, and"... these men don't stay with the rehab expert familiar with their history. See "the project boyfriend"; links contain offensive language, too.
2016's The Problem with Modern Romance Is Too Much Choice, at Nautilus (Dr. Barry Schwartz's Paradox of Choice w/r/t dating): When you have a lot of options, you put more pressure on yourself to make the perfect choice.
2020's On the paradox of choice, Tinder, at The Stanford Daily: In those first few weeks, using Tinder gave me a feeling I’d never quite experienced before. Having all of those options at my fingertips was gratifying, freeing. It was powerful. In the real world, I saw the people around me as ambiguous and self-involved — in short, unavailable. On Tinder, it was different. [...] With every new match, my connection with each of the previous felt less special, each person seeming like a sporadic collection of parts. Here was their bio, and their favorite song, and there was their face, and that one time they caught an abnormally large fish — and then what? What made them different from the next? What made me different from the next?
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:32 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
2016's The Problem with Modern Romance Is Too Much Choice, at Nautilus (Dr. Barry Schwartz's Paradox of Choice w/r/t dating): When you have a lot of options, you put more pressure on yourself to make the perfect choice.
2020's On the paradox of choice, Tinder, at The Stanford Daily: In those first few weeks, using Tinder gave me a feeling I’d never quite experienced before. Having all of those options at my fingertips was gratifying, freeing. It was powerful. In the real world, I saw the people around me as ambiguous and self-involved — in short, unavailable. On Tinder, it was different. [...] With every new match, my connection with each of the previous felt less special, each person seeming like a sporadic collection of parts. Here was their bio, and their favorite song, and there was their face, and that one time they caught an abnormally large fish — and then what? What made them different from the next? What made me different from the next?
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:32 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've been pimped out to the highest bidder, by my mother my entire life. Men are the most confusing creatures that I've ever seen.
posted by lextex at 4:45 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by lextex at 4:45 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
I wish the best for the author, it sounds like she’s had a tough time. I feel like ideally everyone grows in some way from each relationship, but for sure I have been with people who did a lot more to help me grow than vice versa.
I have long found it strange when, in movies, it is a big deal for an adult to say “I love you” to their romantic partner. It seemed so unrealistic. I guess it is a real thing, although I do find it odd that it would only be said years into an on again off again relationship between people in their 30s and 40s. For me, that would definitely be a bad sign.
posted by snofoam at 6:09 PM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
I have long found it strange when, in movies, it is a big deal for an adult to say “I love you” to their romantic partner. It seemed so unrealistic. I guess it is a real thing, although I do find it odd that it would only be said years into an on again off again relationship between people in their 30s and 40s. For me, that would definitely be a bad sign.
posted by snofoam at 6:09 PM on July 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
Counterpoint: All relationships end. And relationships can be filed away as “successful” even when they don’t end in one or more funerals. There’s nothing new about this. It has nothing to do with late-stage capitalism or whatever the buzzword of the moment is.
On the flip side, assholery and abuse also predate apps and predate capitalism. If anything, we’re just now in modern times talking out, calling out and understanding the true breadth of abuse, which means things could actually be getting better on the relationships front, not worse
posted by Skwirl at 6:20 PM on July 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
On the flip side, assholery and abuse also predate apps and predate capitalism. If anything, we’re just now in modern times talking out, calling out and understanding the true breadth of abuse, which means things could actually be getting better on the relationships front, not worse
posted by Skwirl at 6:20 PM on July 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
It was one of the things about dating in my 20s in New York City during the 1990s. It seemed like when you were embracing someone you really liked, they were always looking over your shoulder for someone slightly better. And there always was someone a little better. It was true for more than relationships, too, and that was the city's vibe then (and maybe is now, too): jobs, housing, clothes, body — so much pressure to always be working to improve those things, and so many people to compare yourself to. So exhausting, and that was before social media — we had thousands of examples a day on the street and in the subway, not on our phones, in the 1990s. Always someone better.
posted by Mo Nickels at 7:21 PM on July 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Mo Nickels at 7:21 PM on July 13, 2021 [6 favorites]
Someone upthread caught this also, her arrogance. Calling people "fixer uppers" -- who can blame them for getting away from her, once her true colors show. It'd be fun to read what they write about her. Could be that some of those she thinks of with such contempt consider *her* a fixer upper, or perhaps figured that she's beyond fixing up, that the repairs she needs go into the foundation of her.
Also. This guy she's with now -- all he had to do was figure the way out: "I think I want children someday." I'm betting that he isn't thinking about children any more than I'm thinking about wearing a red hat and playing a kazoo next time I shop for groceries. He's got a good thing going, esp now she's 70 miles distant, every other weekend plus some holidays -- cool. It's a good thing that can easy be called off when he finds someone who sees him as a partner, not a problem.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:16 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also. This guy she's with now -- all he had to do was figure the way out: "I think I want children someday." I'm betting that he isn't thinking about children any more than I'm thinking about wearing a red hat and playing a kazoo next time I shop for groceries. He's got a good thing going, esp now she's 70 miles distant, every other weekend plus some holidays -- cool. It's a good thing that can easy be called off when he finds someone who sees him as a partner, not a problem.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:16 PM on July 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think I've used the term fixer upper before (I do genuinely think it's off-putting, when viewed in general context), I think it's a buzzword for an incredibly difficult bordering on otherwise partner.
Thoughts expressed . . Don't use tinder? It's a great concept and it's helped a lot of people, but there's something inherently weird about an overly digitized/fostered connection. (not always, but weird enough for me to prefer meeting someone at a show or in conversation.. I just don't want an artificial process to meeting someone with more serious significance)
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:35 PM on July 13, 2021
Thoughts expressed . . Don't use tinder? It's a great concept and it's helped a lot of people, but there's something inherently weird about an overly digitized/fostered connection. (not always, but weird enough for me to prefer meeting someone at a show or in conversation.. I just don't want an artificial process to meeting someone with more serious significance)
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:35 PM on July 13, 2021
Exactly, capitalism is mostly just antithetical to democracy and wants to weave its way in between all human relationships, making them transactional in nature.
While other economic systems aren't necessarily "better" by any stretch for human rights and the environment, capitalism seems to be the only one that truly tries to make all human interaction purely financially transactional, attempting to remove any and all real human emotion and treating one another like human beings. Everything is intended to be cold, rational financial calculations and nothing else.
Pre-industrial marriages were absolutely driven by economics. You needed a family to work your farm, needed labor (unpaid, of course) for household production. The marriages were socially acceptable ways to transfer property in important ways when markets were nascent. The suitors plied Agamemnon with gifts for Helen, coveted Penelope for Ithaca's wealth. Jacob didn't labor 14 years to get Rachel because her father was a capitalist. It's not like bride prices and dowries were invented by capitalists--quite the opposite.
posted by mark k at 10:06 PM on July 13, 2021 [18 favorites]
While other economic systems aren't necessarily "better" by any stretch for human rights and the environment, capitalism seems to be the only one that truly tries to make all human interaction purely financially transactional, attempting to remove any and all real human emotion and treating one another like human beings. Everything is intended to be cold, rational financial calculations and nothing else.
Pre-industrial marriages were absolutely driven by economics. You needed a family to work your farm, needed labor (unpaid, of course) for household production. The marriages were socially acceptable ways to transfer property in important ways when markets were nascent. The suitors plied Agamemnon with gifts for Helen, coveted Penelope for Ithaca's wealth. Jacob didn't labor 14 years to get Rachel because her father was a capitalist. It's not like bride prices and dowries were invented by capitalists--quite the opposite.
posted by mark k at 10:06 PM on July 13, 2021 [18 favorites]
Mod note: One from upthread deleted. Look, don't put words in other people's mouths (see site guidelines), and don't become a contortionist to twist perfectly reasonable observations into something offensive. If you want to remark on something that seems bad to you, just talk about that idea you had; don't falsely set someone else up as promoting that idea when they have not.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:23 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:23 PM on July 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
": jobs, housing, clothes, body — so much pressure to always be working to improve those things, and so many people to compare yourself to. So exhausting, and that was before social media — we had thousands of examples a day on the street and in the subway, not on our phones, in the 1990s. Always someone better." I think it's really important to find a way to exist neutrally in this space. It's ok or encouraged to seek improvement, but I already feel like I've seen a lot of late 20s/early 30s burnout from obligation to find the next best.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:25 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:25 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
15-20 years ago they called this BBD (bigger, better, deal).
posted by xtian at 4:50 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by xtian at 4:50 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Reading the comments about the abusive ex-husband...I'm an abuse survivor as well, and have only in the last four or so years had enough therapy to get out of certain patterns...I wonder if there's a bit of correlation between a history of abuse and connecting with the sort of men Sundberg, and unfortunately I, used to flip.
Just putting it out there.
posted by wellred at 5:29 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Just putting it out there.
posted by wellred at 5:29 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I would be very surprised if a guy who was abusive in his first marriage was a total sweetiepie angel in his second.
trying to imagine being an actual relationship-flipper, someone who dates entirely to improve and hand over their erstwhile love.
Amateur² therapists. Professional Manic Pixie Dream Girls.
There are definitely a few books/movies with this sort of plotline.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:34 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
trying to imagine being an actual relationship-flipper, someone who dates entirely to improve and hand over their erstwhile love.
Amateur² therapists. Professional Manic Pixie Dream Girls.
There are definitely a few books/movies with this sort of plotline.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:34 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Someone upthread caught this also, her arrogance. .
What if she improves these people so much, she's left herself behind as a sub-par partner compared to the new them? Does she need a relationship-flipper to improve herself then?
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:48 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
What if she improves these people so much, she's left herself behind as a sub-par partner compared to the new them? Does she need a relationship-flipper to improve herself then?
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:48 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've definitely seen an adjacent type to the one described here: the "Just Like You But Not You." Four different friends of mine were dumped by their male partner after long term relationships that they thought were headed towards marriage. All four men went on to very quickly marry women who were weirdly similar to the women they had just dumped. (In three of the cases, the women were younger.) I don't know the interiority of every one of those relationships, but I can say that it is ODD looking at it from the outside, and naturally very hard on my friends.
I've heard of the "fixer-upper" concept before - my theory at the time was that the guy had become a better person via his relationship with a particular woman, but didn't want to stick around with a woman who had seen the bad behavior, even if it was in the past.
Me, I seem to have been invisible to almost all men for the majority of my life. I guess it's convenient that I didn't have to adjust to it as I started to settle into my crone years.
posted by PussKillian at 8:06 AM on July 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
I've heard of the "fixer-upper" concept before - my theory at the time was that the guy had become a better person via his relationship with a particular woman, but didn't want to stick around with a woman who had seen the bad behavior, even if it was in the past.
Me, I seem to have been invisible to almost all men for the majority of my life. I guess it's convenient that I didn't have to adjust to it as I started to settle into my crone years.
posted by PussKillian at 8:06 AM on July 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
This is not the thread that you would expect to find an Achewood reference in, but in the context of dating, I think of it a lot. Specifically, I think of something that Nice Pete said: "For the life of me, I cannot figure out how a man can love a woman when a woman is just a screaming clear area with a wig on and a large middle where the smells come from."
Now, to be fair, this character is a serial killer. The thing is, it doesn't take a serial killer. As a heterosexual woman navigating the market, you do not know that any given ordinary guy does not think of you like this. You don't know if you're a person to the guy or a character in their personal movie.
For guys who live this way, it makes sense to trade in for a younger model, someone who's not yet burnt out on the caregiving and who can have kids who have no reason to resent them. It's equally possible for a finance bro or a left-wing Good One to treat women this way. Usually you can figure it out on the first few dates, but it may take longer than that; you might even be married before it's clear. Are there signs? Sure! Unless there aren't. Roll the dice.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:24 AM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
Now, to be fair, this character is a serial killer. The thing is, it doesn't take a serial killer. As a heterosexual woman navigating the market, you do not know that any given ordinary guy does not think of you like this. You don't know if you're a person to the guy or a character in their personal movie.
For guys who live this way, it makes sense to trade in for a younger model, someone who's not yet burnt out on the caregiving and who can have kids who have no reason to resent them. It's equally possible for a finance bro or a left-wing Good One to treat women this way. Usually you can figure it out on the first few dates, but it may take longer than that; you might even be married before it's clear. Are there signs? Sure! Unless there aren't. Roll the dice.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:24 AM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
There are definitely a few books/movies with this sort of plotline.
I can’t think of any that are really about the fixer, following them through several relationships and seeing the rest of their life. I can only think of ones about one fixee, to whom the fixer is temporarily tidally locked and treated as one-sided.
posted by clew at 9:48 AM on July 14, 2021
I can’t think of any that are really about the fixer, following them through several relationships and seeing the rest of their life. I can only think of ones about one fixee, to whom the fixer is temporarily tidally locked and treated as one-sided.
posted by clew at 9:48 AM on July 14, 2021
I got back onto Bumble this in February of this year and, I swipe maybe 60/40 to the right. I've had 4 matches, 1 conversation for 2 lines and nothing else.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:58 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:58 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oh my god I was just writing about this in my diary. I’ll come back later and post my thoughts.
posted by gucci mane at 7:08 PM on July 14, 2021
posted by gucci mane at 7:08 PM on July 14, 2021
The sickness link is heartbreaking.
I really feel the author of the main piece, though. Helping somebody else (ime) often comes from a well of similar experience and desire to prevent suffering in another. It's hard to see the person you invested "prevention of suffering" in break up with you - you did your best to inoculate, and they turn the knife to you. A bit of dramatic way to put it, but it certainly feels dramatic in the moment, doesn't it.
Dating apps are a shitshow. Either nobody bites, which is depressing, or you get addicted to the choices, the possibility. I stopped for a lot of reasons, but a significant one was that, well, swiping started to feel a lot like gambling. It wasn't leading anywhere worth going.
posted by snerson at 7:46 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I really feel the author of the main piece, though. Helping somebody else (ime) often comes from a well of similar experience and desire to prevent suffering in another. It's hard to see the person you invested "prevention of suffering" in break up with you - you did your best to inoculate, and they turn the knife to you. A bit of dramatic way to put it, but it certainly feels dramatic in the moment, doesn't it.
Dating apps are a shitshow. Either nobody bites, which is depressing, or you get addicted to the choices, the possibility. I stopped for a lot of reasons, but a significant one was that, well, swiping started to feel a lot like gambling. It wasn't leading anywhere worth going.
posted by snerson at 7:46 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Tw for child abuse
I’m not a person who “fixes” other people, but people tend to have these experiences with me (a cis white male). I find that women tend to date me and fall for me very strongly, and they tend to find within me something that they want, but not with me. Typically we break up and they start dating somebody immediately afterward who they find these qualities in. I don’t take this offensively, but it is unnerving me. I’m 32 years old and while I’m not exactly trying to find a marriage or to start a family or anything, but it terrifies me when I look at the state of “dating”. And I truly don’t like the Tinder culture around dating, but only because it’s not for me, which is a selfish feeling. It has created an atmosphere of “well it’s fine if this doesn’t work out because there are several people on this app that I can just go for”. Which IS logically fine! But emotionally it wrecks me! I really dislike the feeling of being “thrown away” (which is the only way I can describe it). I don’t mind it if somebody dates me for a bit and says “this isn’t for me” and we break things off, that’s normal. What I don’t like is how many people basically treat me as a stopgap for their lonesomeness before moving onto the next person. Always with one foot out the door. I want to create something beautiful with somebody! I want to work hard for something! I go to therapy, I analyze my upbringing, I try to work hard at being a better person, at having boundaries, at communicating better, but people don’t seem to want to do that work because there are other people that they can just jump to. And this isn’t universal, of course. Like I said, it’s just not for me. But it has me so brutally depressed. And I can’t actually tell if my feelings are correct. I said earlier I don’t necessarily want a marriage or to start a family, but I want something significant. I’ve done a lot of work in therapy to try to help myself deal with my feelings of terror in regard to being alone, but these days I feel more alone than ever, and I’m really terrified of the future. I honestly feel like I’m not going to meet somebody the older that I get. I’ve spent a long time absorbing a lot of the discourse around relationships, especially the stuff about “you can’t be with somebody if you aren’t happy with yourself first”, and I’ve never been happy with myself. I am a victim of child sexual abuse and I have always felt totally worthless EXCEPT when I am in a relationship where each of us are working together to hopefully achieve some sort of love. And I have worked really hard to deal with my feelings of self worth and self-esteem, and I have gotten better at it, but it almost feels like it’s for naught when people can see that I’m struggling at times and they can just bail and meet somebody else, somebody who maybe doesn’t have these problems or is better at hiding them. It feels really shitty. I hate that at 32 years old I’m constantly struggling to create something with somebody. And I’m not some sort of incel, I don’t think women or men owe me anything! I’m just scared of being alone. I’m scared that I’ll never be good enough for somebody. I want to be loved. And I know these things exist outside of dating apps, but it feels totally hopeless at times. Going on Tinder, swiping, trying to converse with people who either disappear entirely after good conversation or barely even engage anyway. It’s fucking depressing.
Anyway, sorry. I’ve been thinking about this a ton for the past week.
posted by gucci mane at 4:17 PM on July 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
I’m not a person who “fixes” other people, but people tend to have these experiences with me (a cis white male). I find that women tend to date me and fall for me very strongly, and they tend to find within me something that they want, but not with me. Typically we break up and they start dating somebody immediately afterward who they find these qualities in. I don’t take this offensively, but it is unnerving me. I’m 32 years old and while I’m not exactly trying to find a marriage or to start a family or anything, but it terrifies me when I look at the state of “dating”. And I truly don’t like the Tinder culture around dating, but only because it’s not for me, which is a selfish feeling. It has created an atmosphere of “well it’s fine if this doesn’t work out because there are several people on this app that I can just go for”. Which IS logically fine! But emotionally it wrecks me! I really dislike the feeling of being “thrown away” (which is the only way I can describe it). I don’t mind it if somebody dates me for a bit and says “this isn’t for me” and we break things off, that’s normal. What I don’t like is how many people basically treat me as a stopgap for their lonesomeness before moving onto the next person. Always with one foot out the door. I want to create something beautiful with somebody! I want to work hard for something! I go to therapy, I analyze my upbringing, I try to work hard at being a better person, at having boundaries, at communicating better, but people don’t seem to want to do that work because there are other people that they can just jump to. And this isn’t universal, of course. Like I said, it’s just not for me. But it has me so brutally depressed. And I can’t actually tell if my feelings are correct. I said earlier I don’t necessarily want a marriage or to start a family, but I want something significant. I’ve done a lot of work in therapy to try to help myself deal with my feelings of terror in regard to being alone, but these days I feel more alone than ever, and I’m really terrified of the future. I honestly feel like I’m not going to meet somebody the older that I get. I’ve spent a long time absorbing a lot of the discourse around relationships, especially the stuff about “you can’t be with somebody if you aren’t happy with yourself first”, and I’ve never been happy with myself. I am a victim of child sexual abuse and I have always felt totally worthless EXCEPT when I am in a relationship where each of us are working together to hopefully achieve some sort of love. And I have worked really hard to deal with my feelings of self worth and self-esteem, and I have gotten better at it, but it almost feels like it’s for naught when people can see that I’m struggling at times and they can just bail and meet somebody else, somebody who maybe doesn’t have these problems or is better at hiding them. It feels really shitty. I hate that at 32 years old I’m constantly struggling to create something with somebody. And I’m not some sort of incel, I don’t think women or men owe me anything! I’m just scared of being alone. I’m scared that I’ll never be good enough for somebody. I want to be loved. And I know these things exist outside of dating apps, but it feels totally hopeless at times. Going on Tinder, swiping, trying to converse with people who either disappear entirely after good conversation or barely even engage anyway. It’s fucking depressing.
Anyway, sorry. I’ve been thinking about this a ton for the past week.
posted by gucci mane at 4:17 PM on July 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've definitely seen an adjacent type to the one described here: the "Just Like You But Not You." Four different friends of mine were dumped by their male partner after long term relationships that they thought were headed towards marriage. All four men went on to very quickly marry women who were weirdly similar to the women they had just dumped. (In three of the cases, the women were younger.)
The variation of this that I have seen way too many times now are the men who, after a divorce in their 40s, promptly marry a younger version of their ex-wife. In a few of the cases I've known, the new young wife looks creepily like old photos of the ex-wife. "Just like you, but younger and more compliant" is not a great look.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on July 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
The variation of this that I have seen way too many times now are the men who, after a divorce in their 40s, promptly marry a younger version of their ex-wife. In a few of the cases I've known, the new young wife looks creepily like old photos of the ex-wife. "Just like you, but younger and more compliant" is not a great look.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on July 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Sexist terms traditionally associated with this dynamic: starter wife, and trophy wife.
(U.S. marriage rates are in decline; see also "starter girlfriend" discussion and Cambridge Dictionary's "trophy girlfriend" entry. It's still dehumanizing.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:33 AM on July 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
(U.S. marriage rates are in decline; see also "starter girlfriend" discussion and Cambridge Dictionary's "trophy girlfriend" entry. It's still dehumanizing.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:33 AM on July 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Worst version of that I ever met was an academic department in which more than one male prof had married two female grad students each (I don’t think any of the students finished) but they weren’t divorcés: the first wives had committed suicide.
When one got one’s carrel assignment there, the staff mentioned if that carrel had had a suicide or an attempt in it.
posted by clew at 9:43 PM on July 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
When one got one’s carrel assignment there, the staff mentioned if that carrel had had a suicide or an attempt in it.
posted by clew at 9:43 PM on July 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
« Older English football’s day of embarrassment | Tuesday cheer: reducing mass incarceration Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
When people talk about dating apps it kind of reminds me of being in my brother's car back in the day; no matter what came on the radio, no matter how much he liked the song playing, he still constantly flipped stations because (I assume) part of his brain was more attracted to the promise of what could be than what he had. That said, he did meet his second wife on a dating app and they seem like a great match and are very happy together.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:32 AM on July 13, 2021 [9 favorites]