Cuba’s Protests Are Different This Time
July 13, 2021 8:15 PM Subscribe
The dominant age cohorts today are people who came of age after the Soviet collapse. Their experience of “the Revolution” is one of interminable shortages and unfulfilled promises for reform. Fidel and Raúl Castro, whose prestige as regime founders bolstered popular support among older Cubans, are gone, replaced by a new generation of leaders who have to prove their right to rule by performance. They have to deliver the goods, literally, and so far, they have not been able to do it. [The Nation]
The Hip-Hop Song That's Driving Cuba's Unprecedented Protests [NPR]
Where the original Castro-era slogan was a call to arms for people to stand against outside influence, the new slogan tells people to hit the streets and take back their country.
Why have Cuba’s simmering tensions boiled over on to the streets? [The Guardian]
Cubans are used to queues. But since the pandemic, endless lines,squeezed salaries and power cuts have become a grinding reality for millions. And on Sunday tensions boiled over in the largest anti-government protests for decades. Social media, the pandemic, and beefed-up US sanctions combined with a younger generation hungry for higher living standards have made for a dangerous cocktail the ruling Communist party is struggling to contend with.
What the Protests in Cuba Have to Do With Venezuela [Caracas Chronicles]
Comment from a Cuban [Reddit]
The Hip-Hop Song That's Driving Cuba's Unprecedented Protests [NPR]
Where the original Castro-era slogan was a call to arms for people to stand against outside influence, the new slogan tells people to hit the streets and take back their country.
Why have Cuba’s simmering tensions boiled over on to the streets? [The Guardian]
Cubans are used to queues. But since the pandemic, endless lines,squeezed salaries and power cuts have become a grinding reality for millions. And on Sunday tensions boiled over in the largest anti-government protests for decades. Social media, the pandemic, and beefed-up US sanctions combined with a younger generation hungry for higher living standards have made for a dangerous cocktail the ruling Communist party is struggling to contend with.
What the Protests in Cuba Have to Do With Venezuela [Caracas Chronicles]
Comment from a Cuban [Reddit]
Imagine locking a person in a crate for decades and then going "tsk tsk" when they shit on the ground.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:24 PM on July 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:24 PM on July 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
I gently challenged the Reddit commentor to account for the role of the embargo and try to be more specific about what policies they think were responsible for problems in Cuba and got two instagram posts which... certainly assert that there are problems in Cuba, but are decidedly light on explaining policy dynamics.
I'm sure that Cuban citizens are greater experts than I have much hope of being about what conditions are like in Cuba. But having observed how many American citizens are not even aware of what it would mean to examine a policy dynamic, I'm less confident that they're accurately assessing responsibility, and of course this is a random person on the internet who I have no way of knowing is actually a Cuban citizen. And there's something about the language of the first post that just smells like propaganda to me -- repetitive, simple, strongly directed.
On the other hand I'd also guess the Cuban government has its own sins.
If anyone has an idea how to get a clearer picture of where it does have things to own up, I'd be interested in hearing about it.
posted by weston at 10:31 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm sure that Cuban citizens are greater experts than I have much hope of being about what conditions are like in Cuba. But having observed how many American citizens are not even aware of what it would mean to examine a policy dynamic, I'm less confident that they're accurately assessing responsibility, and of course this is a random person on the internet who I have no way of knowing is actually a Cuban citizen. And there's something about the language of the first post that just smells like propaganda to me -- repetitive, simple, strongly directed.
On the other hand I'd also guess the Cuban government has its own sins.
If anyone has an idea how to get a clearer picture of where it does have things to own up, I'd be interested in hearing about it.
posted by weston at 10:31 PM on July 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sure would be good if we were to lift that embargo. What a dated and inhumane relic.
posted by Gadarene at 11:41 PM on July 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 11:41 PM on July 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
Cuba has its problems but if you want to know what it would look like today without socialism, look 60 miles east at the mess which is the quasi US colony of Haiti.
posted by smithsmith at 1:19 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by smithsmith at 1:19 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Um, wrong side of the island of Hispaniola? The Dominican Republic would be the more apt if-left-to-capitalism example.
Or Puerto Rico, if you're talking about full US hegemony/colonialism/whatever.
Haiti is the other Caribbean island nation that the US has dictator-blockaded, if you were thinking of that.
posted by bartleby at 1:44 AM on July 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
Or Puerto Rico, if you're talking about full US hegemony/colonialism/whatever.
Haiti is the other Caribbean island nation that the US has dictator-blockaded, if you were thinking of that.
posted by bartleby at 1:44 AM on July 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
It ain't the US embargo that is keeping Cuba from buying things from elsewhere, it's a lack of money with which to buy it. (Largely because of the loss of subsidized oil from Venezuela, but for other reasons as well) Cuba has always had pretty strong trade relationships with other nations. The US does not, in any meaningful sense, "blockade" Cuba. Indeed, we sell them food and some other goods freely.
The one thing the US has done recently to exacerbate the foreign exchange problem Cuba is presently experiencing is when Trump decided to substantially cut off remittances from Cuban expatriates living in the US. The poor timing of the Cuban government's switch away from exchange controls which has allowed a massive flow of funds off the island and destroyed the exchange rate is a much bigger issue.
The fact that the embargo is still in place is as dumb as rocks and has been for decades, but it's one of the smaller issues at present. In a way it pains me to say that, as I'd love to be able to blame the Trumpist Cubans here in Miami for fucking over the people they claim to love so much since they completely lost their shit when Obama relaxed the restrictions and implored Trump to reverse the changes.
posted by wierdo at 3:07 AM on July 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
The one thing the US has done recently to exacerbate the foreign exchange problem Cuba is presently experiencing is when Trump decided to substantially cut off remittances from Cuban expatriates living in the US. The poor timing of the Cuban government's switch away from exchange controls which has allowed a massive flow of funds off the island and destroyed the exchange rate is a much bigger issue.
The fact that the embargo is still in place is as dumb as rocks and has been for decades, but it's one of the smaller issues at present. In a way it pains me to say that, as I'd love to be able to blame the Trumpist Cubans here in Miami for fucking over the people they claim to love so much since they completely lost their shit when Obama relaxed the restrictions and implored Trump to reverse the changes.
posted by wierdo at 3:07 AM on July 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
Um, wrong side of the island of Hispaniola? The Dominican Republic would be the more apt if-left-to-capitalism example.
Nope, Haiti has been an almost constant plaything of US colonialism ever since they invaded over a century ago.
posted by smithsmith at 3:26 AM on July 14, 2021
Nope, Haiti has been an almost constant plaything of US colonialism ever since they invaded over a century ago.
posted by smithsmith at 3:26 AM on July 14, 2021
It ain't the US embargo that is keeping Cuba from buying things from elsewhere, it's a lack of money with which to buy it. (Largely because of the loss of subsidized oil from Venezuela
Even taking this at face value, you're just saying "it's not the embargo against Cuba, it's the embargo against Venezuela" which, well, who brought that in, exactly?
"These protests are different" Yeah the American flags and protest signs in English sure are different.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:47 AM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Even taking this at face value, you're just saying "it's not the embargo against Cuba, it's the embargo against Venezuela" which, well, who brought that in, exactly?
"These protests are different" Yeah the American flags and protest signs in English sure are different.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:47 AM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yeah, the American flags are bizarre to me. Without defaulting to "CIA SPOOKS!" is there a reason why an anti-Cuban government protester would wave a flag for the country that tried and spectacularly failed to invade them, and has a cruel, dated embargo against them? Like, what is the political line of thinking here? "We love you America! Thank you for your 60-year embargo! The embargo is good! Please intervene!" I mean I'm seriously curious what the sentiment is if there's anyone here who's knowledgeable about on the ground Cuban political culture, which I am not.
posted by windbox at 6:30 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by windbox at 6:30 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yeah the American flags and protest signs in English sure are different.
I did not see any pictures online that showed protest signs in English. I found one picture that had a U.S. flag. Can you put up links to pictures that do show them?
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 6:30 AM on July 14, 2021
I did not see any pictures online that showed protest signs in English. I found one picture that had a U.S. flag. Can you put up links to pictures that do show them?
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 6:30 AM on July 14, 2021
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that maybe if there wasn't an embargo for sixty years, Cuba might have more money than they do now. I get that they weren't ever broke and they lost a lot of current government revenue to keep things rolling in the last two years, but...
It's a real hard sell for me to believe that the country wouldn't be richer without a sixty year trade embargo. Something about being able to grow more and trade more during those sixty years. Sure, they're bleeding money now but maybe if they'd had a chance to grow what they had in that time then the current losses wouldn't be so significant. In other words, acting like the embargo has nothing to do with it is basically like saying history doesn't exist and you shouldn't talk about it.
---
RE: English protest signs and American flags. A few US publications have used stock images of US protests for this story, and you can tell they are in the US by the street signs, which are in English. I suspect this is what people mean and have been seeing, possibly without realizing that this isn't actually a photo of Cuban protests.
It's a really shitty thing a lot of media sources do when they can't get a hold of a copyright-free image themselves, they just turn to some vague image they have on file that sort of fits the story.
posted by deadaluspark at 6:35 AM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's a real hard sell for me to believe that the country wouldn't be richer without a sixty year trade embargo. Something about being able to grow more and trade more during those sixty years. Sure, they're bleeding money now but maybe if they'd had a chance to grow what they had in that time then the current losses wouldn't be so significant. In other words, acting like the embargo has nothing to do with it is basically like saying history doesn't exist and you shouldn't talk about it.
---
RE: English protest signs and American flags. A few US publications have used stock images of US protests for this story, and you can tell they are in the US by the street signs, which are in English. I suspect this is what people mean and have been seeing, possibly without realizing that this isn't actually a photo of Cuban protests.
It's a really shitty thing a lot of media sources do when they can't get a hold of a copyright-free image themselves, they just turn to some vague image they have on file that sort of fits the story.
posted by deadaluspark at 6:35 AM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yeah, the American flags are bizarre to me. Without defaulting to "CIA SPOOKS!" is there a reason why an anti-Cuban government protester would wave a flag for the country that tried and spectacularly failed to invade them, and has a cruel, dated embargo against them?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's unlikely to be some CIA Svengali whispering in his ear.
posted by ocschwar at 6:38 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Pretty sure this is a photo of a protest in Miami based on the street sign in the back. CNN Instagram says it's the Cuban protests in Cuba.
posted by deadaluspark at 6:42 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by deadaluspark at 6:42 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Restrictions on trade with Venezuela are not what is preventing them from pumping more oil. The US government throws its weight around and often makes things worse for people on the ground because of stupid ideological spats, but it is not responsible for the short-sighted decisions other countries make that ends up kneecapping their ability to exploit their own resources by selling them to countries that couldn't give less of a shit who the US government thinks they should or should not trade with.
In any event, no country is entitled to the subsidy of other nations through the sale of goods at below market values. If that's your plan for survival, you don't have a fucking plan, you've got a disaster waiting to happen. Cuba especially ought to have known better than to have the expectation of unsustainably cheap energy forever given that it's not the first time subsidies have suddenly gone away and caused severe economic trouble.
Arguing that there wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for the embargo is just succumbing to American exceptionalism. It simply isn't true that the US restrictions have been a substantial impediment to trade with the rest of the world any time in recent history. Pretty much every other country in the world trades with them. The rest of the world has been over our petty dispute since before most of us were born. It's not a situation like North Korea.
posted by wierdo at 6:50 AM on July 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
In any event, no country is entitled to the subsidy of other nations through the sale of goods at below market values. If that's your plan for survival, you don't have a fucking plan, you've got a disaster waiting to happen. Cuba especially ought to have known better than to have the expectation of unsustainably cheap energy forever given that it's not the first time subsidies have suddenly gone away and caused severe economic trouble.
Arguing that there wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for the embargo is just succumbing to American exceptionalism. It simply isn't true that the US restrictions have been a substantial impediment to trade with the rest of the world any time in recent history. Pretty much every other country in the world trades with them. The rest of the world has been over our petty dispute since before most of us were born. It's not a situation like North Korea.
posted by wierdo at 6:50 AM on July 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
Just to muddy the waters a bit, it should be noted that the US does have bilateral economic relations with Cuba that have us sending humanitarian and medical goods, and have done for years. And it's not as if Cuba doesn't trade with other countries.
Current economic problems seem to have started with the sudden cratering of their export market 2014-2016. Parallels Venezuela's problems with oil's 2014 collapse, though hurricanes and tropical storms likely also played a role, I suspect, which would explain this story. (And, to muddy a bit more, the latest from Human Rights Watch. Interested to see some theoretical improvements since last I checked.)
Call me selfish, but on a personal level, current US Cuban relations mean that I and some Cuban-American relatives keep having to put off a long mooted trip there. Tiresome for all involved, really.
posted by BWA at 7:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
Current economic problems seem to have started with the sudden cratering of their export market 2014-2016. Parallels Venezuela's problems with oil's 2014 collapse, though hurricanes and tropical storms likely also played a role, I suspect, which would explain this story. (And, to muddy a bit more, the latest from Human Rights Watch. Interested to see some theoretical improvements since last I checked.)
Call me selfish, but on a personal level, current US Cuban relations mean that I and some Cuban-American relatives keep having to put off a long mooted trip there. Tiresome for all involved, really.
posted by BWA at 7:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
It's a really shitty thing a lot of media sources do when they can't get a hold of a copyright-free image themselves, they just turn to some vague image they have on file that sort of fits the story.
This happened, but in the opposite direction than you are guessing, media are using a photo of a pro-revolution (referencing 26 July) gathering, as evidence of large crowds protesting against the Cuban government.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:26 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
This happened, but in the opposite direction than you are guessing, media are using a photo of a pro-revolution (referencing 26 July) gathering, as evidence of large crowds protesting against the Cuban government.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:26 AM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Pretty sure this is a photo of a protest in Miami based on the street sign in the back. CNN Instagram says it's the Cuban protests in Cuba.
Yes, it's the intersection of SW 8 St. and 36th Avenue in Miami. The street sign is identical, and the building has been repainted white, but if you look in the top right of the CNN photo and zoom in, you can barely make out a section of one of the decorative rings on the building.
posted by Pyry at 7:55 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, it's the intersection of SW 8 St. and 36th Avenue in Miami. The street sign is identical, and the building has been repainted white, but if you look in the top right of the CNN photo and zoom in, you can barely make out a section of one of the decorative rings on the building.
posted by Pyry at 7:55 AM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure this is a photo of a protest in Miami based on the street sign in the back. CNN Instagram says it's the Cuban protests in Cuba
I’m almost positive that’s Calle Ocho which is in the heart of Cuban Miami.
I was lucky to travel to Havana back in 2017 right before theTrump administration shut down travel to Cuba. As a native Floridian with many Cuban friends I wanted to see Havana for myself. What I witnessed was heartbreaking. The city is a shell of its former self and the Cuban people are forced to cater to foreign tourists to make ends meet. The country has been in constant turmoil since the late 19th century and the US has done zero to make things better. Between agricultural companies exploiting the island in the early 1900’s, the U.S. administrations propping up regime after regime ending with Batista fleeing the country and then Fidel Castro seizing and consolidating power leading to the cruel embargo of the island for 40 years it’s no wonder Cubans are taking to the streets in desperation.
The children of the special period long longer care about the revolution and the Cuban government allowing cell phones and internet access is the difference from past protests. I’m very worried that a massive, violent crack down is coming. I’m just as suspicious of any US administration getting involved in supporting unrest in the country but I hope the Biden administration will step up and support the Cuban people.
posted by photoslob at 7:55 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I’m almost positive that’s Calle Ocho which is in the heart of Cuban Miami.
I was lucky to travel to Havana back in 2017 right before theTrump administration shut down travel to Cuba. As a native Floridian with many Cuban friends I wanted to see Havana for myself. What I witnessed was heartbreaking. The city is a shell of its former self and the Cuban people are forced to cater to foreign tourists to make ends meet. The country has been in constant turmoil since the late 19th century and the US has done zero to make things better. Between agricultural companies exploiting the island in the early 1900’s, the U.S. administrations propping up regime after regime ending with Batista fleeing the country and then Fidel Castro seizing and consolidating power leading to the cruel embargo of the island for 40 years it’s no wonder Cubans are taking to the streets in desperation.
The children of the special period long longer care about the revolution and the Cuban government allowing cell phones and internet access is the difference from past protests. I’m very worried that a massive, violent crack down is coming. I’m just as suspicious of any US administration getting involved in supporting unrest in the country but I hope the Biden administration will step up and support the Cuban people.
posted by photoslob at 7:55 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
1A just did a short piece on the Cuban protests this morning. Their only real mention of the embargo was a sound clip of Cuba’s president railing against the embargo, as a response to the protests, kind of making the embargo sound like just an excuse. The rest of the discussion didn’t mention the embargo. 🤨
posted by Thorzdad at 8:16 AM on July 14, 2021
posted by Thorzdad at 8:16 AM on July 14, 2021
I'm in the middle of a project on twitter 'inauthentic content' detection - Boy, every account I've hand spotchecked seems to be hellbent on tying Cuba to the ideological failure of communism.
posted by Orb2069 at 8:25 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Orb2069 at 8:25 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
As others have noted that is definitely a street corner in Miami. Specifically, it's right by the Versailles restaurant that is a rallying point for Cubans in Miami.
A lot of you are making comments about the embargo from ideological perspectives that aren't necessarily grounded in a real understanding of the lives of Cubans in Cuba and the Exilio. A common refrain on MeFi, and elsewhere, is to listen to the people who are living that reality. I was born in Cuba and while I can't say what the mood on the island is right now, I can tell you that among Cubans in U.S.A. there has traditionally been strong support for the embargo (not uniform, of course) even, now, amongst younger Cuban-Americans there is support for it. I can say this, given the political clout of Cubans in Florida, the embargo would have gone away in the 90s, if we didn't support it. If we had come out in support of dropping it both political parties would have fallen over themselves to drop it, less they risk losing Florida's electoral college votes (not to mention congressional seats).
Whether or not you think the embargo is a good idea, do me a favor, stop centering the Anglo policy makers in D.C. as if Cuba's situation was entirely determined by the whims of some white guys. We have agency.
posted by oddman at 8:57 AM on July 14, 2021 [29 favorites]
A lot of you are making comments about the embargo from ideological perspectives that aren't necessarily grounded in a real understanding of the lives of Cubans in Cuba and the Exilio. A common refrain on MeFi, and elsewhere, is to listen to the people who are living that reality. I was born in Cuba and while I can't say what the mood on the island is right now, I can tell you that among Cubans in U.S.A. there has traditionally been strong support for the embargo (not uniform, of course) even, now, amongst younger Cuban-Americans there is support for it. I can say this, given the political clout of Cubans in Florida, the embargo would have gone away in the 90s, if we didn't support it. If we had come out in support of dropping it both political parties would have fallen over themselves to drop it, less they risk losing Florida's electoral college votes (not to mention congressional seats).
Whether or not you think the embargo is a good idea, do me a favor, stop centering the Anglo policy makers in D.C. as if Cuba's situation was entirely determined by the whims of some white guys. We have agency.
posted by oddman at 8:57 AM on July 14, 2021 [29 favorites]
Imagine locking a person in a crate for decades and then going "tsk tsk" when they shit on the ground.
wtf
posted by leslietron at 9:08 AM on July 14, 2021
wtf
posted by leslietron at 9:08 AM on July 14, 2021
While the U.S. embargo has hurt the Cuban economy over the last 60 years, as pointed out, Cuba has trade relations with pretty much the rest of the world. And the Cubans have done a remarkably bad job of building their economy, particularly their export sector.
Its top five exports are: Tobacco, manufactured substitutes: US$329.5 million (19.2% of total exports); Sugar, sugar confectionery: $285.5 million (16.6%); Mineral fuels including oil: $251.1 million (14.6%); Nickel: $210.1 million (12.2%); Ores, slag, ash: $161.5 million (9.4%) [Source].
When your top exports are tobacco and sugar, you're running a 19th-century economy. Over-reliance on cheap imported fuel is just another example of the leadership's shortsightedness. Plus, that Cuba imports 70+% of its food is similarly insane: Poultry Meat ($286M), Wheat ($181M), Soybean Meal ($167M), Corn ($146M), and Concentrated Milk ($136M) [Source]. No surprise that it had, as of 2017, a, roughly, $9 billion trade deficit. Who knows what the Trump sanctions/COVID-era figures are.
posted by the sobsister at 10:04 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Its top five exports are: Tobacco, manufactured substitutes: US$329.5 million (19.2% of total exports); Sugar, sugar confectionery: $285.5 million (16.6%); Mineral fuels including oil: $251.1 million (14.6%); Nickel: $210.1 million (12.2%); Ores, slag, ash: $161.5 million (9.4%) [Source].
When your top exports are tobacco and sugar, you're running a 19th-century economy. Over-reliance on cheap imported fuel is just another example of the leadership's shortsightedness. Plus, that Cuba imports 70+% of its food is similarly insane: Poultry Meat ($286M), Wheat ($181M), Soybean Meal ($167M), Corn ($146M), and Concentrated Milk ($136M) [Source]. No surprise that it had, as of 2017, a, roughly, $9 billion trade deficit. Who knows what the Trump sanctions/COVID-era figures are.
posted by the sobsister at 10:04 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Pretty solid thread on the impact of the Cuban government removing the dual currency, with some other info about the various political elements of the protests:
To understand what's really going on in Cuba right now -- the massive protests across the country -- you have to grasp three things:posted by wuwei at 10:17 AM on July 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
(1.) The Leninist government's years-long crisis of legitimacy;
(2.) the causes of recent hyper-inflation;
(3.) the mixed politics of dissidents
Link
Just came in to agree that CNN not being able to tell Cubans in Miami from Cubans in Cuba is racist af but not evidence of a CIA coup.
posted by corb at 11:03 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:03 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I found Wuwei’s link very helpful for understanding the situation outside the inevitable context of my US specific worldview, as much as that is possible anyway.
posted by eagles123 at 11:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by eagles123 at 11:08 AM on July 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Arguing that the CIA or other three letter agencies are likely involved in some way is not denying Cuban agency, it's acknowledging the long history of US meddling.
I would be shocked to discover they weren't involved in some way, just given the profoundly pathological insistence they've had on trying to overthrow or assassinate Cuban leaders, and sponsored terrorism against the island so consistently.
posted by turntraitor at 11:13 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
I would be shocked to discover they weren't involved in some way, just given the profoundly pathological insistence they've had on trying to overthrow or assassinate Cuban leaders, and sponsored terrorism against the island so consistently.
posted by turntraitor at 11:13 AM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Arguing that the CIA or other three letter agencies are likely involved in some way is not denying Cuban agency, it's acknowledging the long history of US meddling.
It's acknowledging the long history AND denying Cuban agency.
posted by ocschwar at 11:41 AM on July 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
It's acknowledging the long history AND denying Cuban agency.
posted by ocschwar at 11:41 AM on July 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
A wide ranging heterogeneous group of Cubans are protesting the governments mishandling of it's finances (and are being repressed). What does the CIA have to do with it? There's a hyperinflation crisis and Cubans can't eat — on top of COVID. People got fed up. It's as simple as that.
posted by Omon Ra at 11:44 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Omon Ra at 11:44 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
Pretty solid thread on the impact of the Cuban government removing the dual currency, with some other info about the various political elements of the protests:
That thread does not make much sense at all. The CUC (convertible peso) and the CUP (Cuban peso) were convertible at a fixed rate and generally interchangeable. Since the CUC was fixed to the dollar (leaving aside some details about temporary changes and fees to convert) and the CUP to the CUC, the CUP was effectively pegged to the dollar. So all the talk about exchange rates doesn't make any sense at all.
posted by ssg at 11:45 AM on July 14, 2021
That thread does not make much sense at all. The CUC (convertible peso) and the CUP (Cuban peso) were convertible at a fixed rate and generally interchangeable. Since the CUC was fixed to the dollar (leaving aside some details about temporary changes and fees to convert) and the CUP to the CUC, the CUP was effectively pegged to the dollar. So all the talk about exchange rates doesn't make any sense at all.
posted by ssg at 11:45 AM on July 14, 2021
among Cubans in U.S.A. there has traditionally been strong support for the embargo
Honest question, as I'm completely ignorant on this topic and haven't been able to find an answer online - what is the reason for such strong support by US Cubans for the embargo?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:47 AM on July 14, 2021
Honest question, as I'm completely ignorant on this topic and haven't been able to find an answer online - what is the reason for such strong support by US Cubans for the embargo?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:47 AM on July 14, 2021
I'd never insist it's impossible or even improbable that these are genuine protests. The point is that even if genuine, it's hardly credible to believe that three letter agencies, who have worked hand-in-glove with expat movements in the US in both legal and illegal efforts, would not immediately begin attempting to support (and thus steer) what's happening.
In some ways, the history of the US' meddling has poisoned the credibility of movements like these because every single one in the past has been supported by agents of the US security state. If the US had pursued an actual hands-off policy, it would be much more credible in its statements about the nation, and in turn lend credibility to on-island dissident movements that they aren't merely arms of US imperialism, which so often ended up being the truth in the past.
posted by turntraitor at 11:47 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
In some ways, the history of the US' meddling has poisoned the credibility of movements like these because every single one in the past has been supported by agents of the US security state. If the US had pursued an actual hands-off policy, it would be much more credible in its statements about the nation, and in turn lend credibility to on-island dissident movements that they aren't merely arms of US imperialism, which so often ended up being the truth in the past.
posted by turntraitor at 11:47 AM on July 14, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't know what the CIA is doing right now in Cuba. All I know is a litany of terrible things done by the state to it's own people that have been well documented. They include concentration camps for homosexuals, show trials, widespread corruption from the top, economic mismanagement, systematic political suppression and the imposition of a dictatorial regime with only three heads of state during a period of sixty years. It seems reasonable that people would feel fed up by a system with little accountability and little promise for the future. Without doubting that the CIA might be doing "something", there's also a tendency to ascribe omnipotence to it, way beyond what's resonable.
posted by Omon Ra at 12:00 PM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Omon Ra at 12:00 PM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
It's as simple as that.
It can be both. People in Cuba can be fed up and the USA can be manipulating things, like they always do. The USA seems to be focusing more on Latin America lately, probably worried about the slow move to the left.
posted by simmering octagon at 12:01 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
It can be both. People in Cuba can be fed up and the USA can be manipulating things, like they always do. The USA seems to be focusing more on Latin America lately, probably worried about the slow move to the left.
posted by simmering octagon at 12:01 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Re: Wuwei’s link
Ms. Fields and myself did a vacation to Cuba in May 2017, arguably the worst 'vacation' I've ever taken but very interesting anthro-geo-politically, but that's another story.
The difference in the two currency's the CUP (Local Pesos) and CUC (The 1=1 to USD) being explained in Wuwei's link as a on the ground example:
When you arrive in Cuba as an American you have to bring in all the USD that you think you will use for your entire time in country. The US Banking system, obviously, is embargo'd and the few Canadian and Mexican bank branches/ATMs in Havana won't accept American bank cards. So you must come with cash and exchange it for CUC at a CADECA. As mentioned, it's 1=1 with USD in theory, but you get hit with a 10% exchange fee for it plus commission plus exchange rate fluctuation, so it's more like ~1.15-1.19 USD = 1 COP for you exchanging. Just a note, if you bring CAD, MXN, EUR, or GBP there's no 10% fee.
We actually exchanged some of our CUC for CUP to pay for select local things, specifically ice cream. Coppelia is a state run mega ice cream* parlor and has two lines, COP and CUP (effectively Cubans and Tourists), and as I recall it was about ¢30 USD in CUP with a longish line, and maybe $3-4 USD in CUC with no waiting. We didn't order much ice cream* but some local 20-something skinny women at the table near us ordered what I would consider a comical amount and ate it all. Having some CUP in our pockets helped with negotiation/haggling in some respects but not much beyond saving a few bucks on state-run purchases (ice cream and museum entry).
*ice cream is being very generous description, it was very airy/watered down and almost a dairy-hinted styled italian ice.
posted by wcfields at 12:23 PM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Ms. Fields and myself did a vacation to Cuba in May 2017, arguably the worst 'vacation' I've ever taken but very interesting anthro-geo-politically, but that's another story.
The difference in the two currency's the CUP (Local Pesos) and CUC (The 1=1 to USD) being explained in Wuwei's link as a on the ground example:
When you arrive in Cuba as an American you have to bring in all the USD that you think you will use for your entire time in country. The US Banking system, obviously, is embargo'd and the few Canadian and Mexican bank branches/ATMs in Havana won't accept American bank cards. So you must come with cash and exchange it for CUC at a CADECA. As mentioned, it's 1=1 with USD in theory, but you get hit with a 10% exchange fee for it plus commission plus exchange rate fluctuation, so it's more like ~1.15-1.19 USD = 1 COP for you exchanging. Just a note, if you bring CAD, MXN, EUR, or GBP there's no 10% fee.
We actually exchanged some of our CUC for CUP to pay for select local things, specifically ice cream. Coppelia is a state run mega ice cream* parlor and has two lines, COP and CUP (effectively Cubans and Tourists), and as I recall it was about ¢30 USD in CUP with a longish line, and maybe $3-4 USD in CUC with no waiting. We didn't order much ice cream* but some local 20-something skinny women at the table near us ordered what I would consider a comical amount and ate it all. Having some CUP in our pockets helped with negotiation/haggling in some respects but not much beyond saving a few bucks on state-run purchases (ice cream and museum entry).
*ice cream is being very generous description, it was very airy/watered down and almost a dairy-hinted styled italian ice.
posted by wcfields at 12:23 PM on July 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
So, here's a deeply informed opinion on what's going on in Cuba, by Friar Betto, a Brazilian liberation theologian whose work is on the understanding between Marxism and Christianity:
I warn my friends: if you are rich in Brazil and live in Cuba, you will know hell. You will be unable to change cars every year, buy designer clothes, travel frequently for vacations abroad. And, above all, you will not be able to exploit other people's work, keep your employees in the dark, be "proud" of your relationship with Maria, your cook for 20 years, and to whom you deny access to your own home, schooling and health insurance.
If you are middle class, get ready to experience purgatory. Although Cuba is no longer a nationalized society, the bureaucracy persists, it is necessary to be patient in the queues at the markets, many products available this month may not be found in the next due to the inconsistencies of imports.
If, however, you are salaried, poor, homeless or landless, get ready to experience paradise. The Revolution will guarantee its three fundamental human rights: food, health and education, as well as housing and work. You may have an appetite for not eating what you like, but you will never be hungry. Your family will have education and health care, including complex surgeries, totally free, as a duty of the State and a citizen's right.
Read the full text here
tl;dr: DEPENDS ON WHOM YOU ASK – THE RICH HATE IT, THE POOR LOVE IT
posted by Tom-B at 12:32 PM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
I warn my friends: if you are rich in Brazil and live in Cuba, you will know hell. You will be unable to change cars every year, buy designer clothes, travel frequently for vacations abroad. And, above all, you will not be able to exploit other people's work, keep your employees in the dark, be "proud" of your relationship with Maria, your cook for 20 years, and to whom you deny access to your own home, schooling and health insurance.
If you are middle class, get ready to experience purgatory. Although Cuba is no longer a nationalized society, the bureaucracy persists, it is necessary to be patient in the queues at the markets, many products available this month may not be found in the next due to the inconsistencies of imports.
If, however, you are salaried, poor, homeless or landless, get ready to experience paradise. The Revolution will guarantee its three fundamental human rights: food, health and education, as well as housing and work. You may have an appetite for not eating what you like, but you will never be hungry. Your family will have education and health care, including complex surgeries, totally free, as a duty of the State and a citizen's right.
Read the full text here
tl;dr: DEPENDS ON WHOM YOU ASK – THE RICH HATE IT, THE POOR LOVE IT
posted by Tom-B at 12:32 PM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
Honest question, as I'm completely ignorant on this topic and haven't been able to find an answer online - what is the reason for such strong support by US Cubans for the embargo?
Cuban-Americans have historically been fairly hostile to the Castro regime. The embargo (in theory) damages that regime.
THE RICH HATE IT, THE POOR LOVE IT
Those protestors don't look particularly rich to me.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:40 PM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Cuban-Americans have historically been fairly hostile to the Castro regime. The embargo (in theory) damages that regime.
THE RICH HATE IT, THE POOR LOVE IT
Those protestors don't look particularly rich to me.
posted by AdamCSnider at 2:40 PM on July 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
That thread does not make much sense at all.
CUP and CUC equivalency masks the transactional costs of switching between the currencies. ssg seems to be saying that the the dollar-CUC is transitively related to the CUC-CUP, which, while true, misses the point of why they attempted this scheme in the first place, namely it gives them relatively more flexibility to hoover up forex internally than would've been the case without a dual currency.
posted by wuwei at 3:13 PM on July 14, 2021
CUP and CUC equivalency masks the transactional costs of switching between the currencies. ssg seems to be saying that the the dollar-CUC is transitively related to the CUC-CUP, which, while true, misses the point of why they attempted this scheme in the first place, namely it gives them relatively more flexibility to hoover up forex internally than would've been the case without a dual currency.
posted by wuwei at 3:13 PM on July 14, 2021
I was born in Cuba and while I can't say what the mood on the island is right now, I can tell you that among Cubans in U.S.A. there has traditionally been strong support for the embargo (not uniform, of course) even, now, amongst younger Cuban-Americans there is support for it.
This might be a dumb question, but why do Cuban-Americans support it so staunchly? The US has a number of communities that were formed from refugees and exiles of Communist and former Communist countries (e.g., China, Russia, Vietnam), and though they are varying levels of right-wing/conservative, I think the support for a hard embargo for those respective countries is not widely supported in those communities (and the more US mainstream view was Trump style "tariffs", at least for China). Did seeing a country like China become prosperous but still remain authoritarian and Communist harden the view that the embargo was necessary?
posted by FJT at 3:25 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
This might be a dumb question, but why do Cuban-Americans support it so staunchly? The US has a number of communities that were formed from refugees and exiles of Communist and former Communist countries (e.g., China, Russia, Vietnam), and though they are varying levels of right-wing/conservative, I think the support for a hard embargo for those respective countries is not widely supported in those communities (and the more US mainstream view was Trump style "tariffs", at least for China). Did seeing a country like China become prosperous but still remain authoritarian and Communist harden the view that the embargo was necessary?
posted by FJT at 3:25 PM on July 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
It’s hardly a mystery that the exploitative Cuban elite that lost out in the a revolution went to America and formed a large constituency for policies aimed at overturning the regime and potentially restoring their privileges.
Normally protests of such modest size (“hundreds” according to NYT) wouldn’t be making international news or the mefi front page. But it’s an official State Department enemy so unsurprising that the corporate press would be beating this up into a story of major significance, complete with the ‘accidental’ use of images of protests in Miami or pro-regime protests in Cuba.
posted by moorooka at 3:53 PM on July 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
Normally protests of such modest size (“hundreds” according to NYT) wouldn’t be making international news or the mefi front page. But it’s an official State Department enemy so unsurprising that the corporate press would be beating this up into a story of major significance, complete with the ‘accidental’ use of images of protests in Miami or pro-regime protests in Cuba.
posted by moorooka at 3:53 PM on July 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
I'm very surprised that nobody has mentioned the absolutely brilliant and addictive podcast "Blowback" - Season 2 is a fast-paced but deep dive into the history of the Cuban Missile Crisis (and the revolutionary events surrounding it). It is extremely well sourced and includes interviews from the people who lived through the revolution.
I had very little interest in Cuban-U.S. relations prior to listening to this but I was totally captivated.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:08 PM on July 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
I had very little interest in Cuban-U.S. relations prior to listening to this but I was totally captivated.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:08 PM on July 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Without doubting that the CIA might be doing "something", there's also a tendency to ascribe omnipotence to it, way beyond what's resonable.
Nobody thinks they're omnipotent. They fuck up way more often than they succeed. But success is a relative term, as the main objective is destabilization, and it's much easier to achieve that with a dozen botched jobs than with one elusive, perfect op.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:26 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nobody thinks they're omnipotent. They fuck up way more often than they succeed. But success is a relative term, as the main objective is destabilization, and it's much easier to achieve that with a dozen botched jobs than with one elusive, perfect op.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:26 PM on July 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Refer to this 1960 Memorandum From the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs
Obama made some tentative efforts at moving away from this posture. These were reversed by Trump, and Biden is continuing Trump policy.
posted by moorooka at 4:53 PM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
SUBJECTUS policy for decades has been to deliberately “bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government”.
The Decline and Fall of Castro
Salient considerations respecting the life of the present Government of Cuba are:
1. The majority of Cubans support Castro (the lowest estimate I have seen is 50 percent).
2. There is no effective political opposition.
3. Fidel Castro and other members of the Cuban Government espouse or condone communist influence.
4. Communist influence is pervading the Government and the body politic at an amazingly fast rate.
5. Militant opposition to Castro from without Cuba would only serve his and the communist cause.
6. The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship.
If the above are accepted or cannot be successfully countered, it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.
Obama made some tentative efforts at moving away from this posture. These were reversed by Trump, and Biden is continuing Trump policy.
posted by moorooka at 4:53 PM on July 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
This might be a dumb question, but why do Cuban-Americans support it so staunchly?
A significant portion of them were rich elites that prospered under a military dictatorship with profitable ties with United States businesses and the Mafia.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on July 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
A significant portion of them were rich elites that prospered under a military dictatorship with profitable ties with United States businesses and the Mafia.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on July 14, 2021 [11 favorites]
A significant portion of them were rich elites that prospered under a military dictatorship with profitable ties with United States businesses and the Mafia.
It's been 62 years since Batista was overthrown, the handful of remaining immigrants old enough to have enjoyed any degree of power under him are in nursing homes. There has been significant immigration since then ( significantly poorer and less white than the first, "elite" wave). Just looking briefly at Wikipedia, that initial post-Revolution wave seems to have been ~250,000 or so, while 125,000 left in the Mariel boatlift in 1980 alone. Not to mention that there was a community of Cuban immigrants in the USA dating well back even before the Revolution.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:17 PM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's been 62 years since Batista was overthrown, the handful of remaining immigrants old enough to have enjoyed any degree of power under him are in nursing homes. There has been significant immigration since then ( significantly poorer and less white than the first, "elite" wave). Just looking briefly at Wikipedia, that initial post-Revolution wave seems to have been ~250,000 or so, while 125,000 left in the Mariel boatlift in 1980 alone. Not to mention that there was a community of Cuban immigrants in the USA dating well back even before the Revolution.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:17 PM on July 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
"what is the reason for such strong support by US Cubans for the embargo?"
Basically, you have to understand that the mindset of the pre-Mariel Cubans in America was one of being exiles, not immigrants. The goal was always to move back to Cuba, our homeland, when we could. Add to that a resentment of and anger toward Castro by the people who were harmed by the revolution (not all where elites, but the concerns of elites tend to eclipse the rest). The result of these two elements is a mindset that it's better* to exacerbate the island's pains in order to speed the collapse of the Revolutionary Government, so that we could go back to finally establish the country Jose Marti died fighting for.
*Better for the people who wanted to return to Cuba and establish a capitalist democracy.** These were usually people who'd done well under Batista, but they weren't Batista loyalists or anything like that (no one shed a tear for that guy). Quite a lot of them were middle class merchants and business owners. Now, whether the embargo was better for the much larger number of people left on the island or whether it was ever actually a good way to remove a dictator are questions that rely on counterfactual claims that I'm not sure could ever be asserted with any confidence (no matter which way you'd answer the questions).
**Astute readers will note that Marti was very much against a US-style capitalist democracy. So claiming his mantel and pursuing that goal is a contradiction, but, you know, propaganda is the part you say out loud and real politik is the stuff you say in private. That's not a unique fault of Cubans, by any stretch.
posted by oddman at 8:46 PM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
Basically, you have to understand that the mindset of the pre-Mariel Cubans in America was one of being exiles, not immigrants. The goal was always to move back to Cuba, our homeland, when we could. Add to that a resentment of and anger toward Castro by the people who were harmed by the revolution (not all where elites, but the concerns of elites tend to eclipse the rest). The result of these two elements is a mindset that it's better* to exacerbate the island's pains in order to speed the collapse of the Revolutionary Government, so that we could go back to finally establish the country Jose Marti died fighting for.
*Better for the people who wanted to return to Cuba and establish a capitalist democracy.** These were usually people who'd done well under Batista, but they weren't Batista loyalists or anything like that (no one shed a tear for that guy). Quite a lot of them were middle class merchants and business owners. Now, whether the embargo was better for the much larger number of people left on the island or whether it was ever actually a good way to remove a dictator are questions that rely on counterfactual claims that I'm not sure could ever be asserted with any confidence (no matter which way you'd answer the questions).
**Astute readers will note that Marti was very much against a US-style capitalist democracy. So claiming his mantel and pursuing that goal is a contradiction, but, you know, propaganda is the part you say out loud and real politik is the stuff you say in private. That's not a unique fault of Cubans, by any stretch.
posted by oddman at 8:46 PM on July 14, 2021 [13 favorites]
I found the following piece to be pretty useful for some recent context, although no doubt only a slice of what's going on and likely superseded by recent events. It's a review by Tony Woods of two recent books about Cuba in the 1st July 2021 issue of the LRB (link, paywall but only after a limited number of free monthly articles), and the books in focus are:
• Anthony DePalma 'The Cubans: Ordinary Lives in Extraordinary Times' (2021)
• Helen Yaffe 'We Are Cuba! How A Revolutionary People Have Survived in a post-Soviet World' (2020)
posted by Joeruckus at 1:12 AM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
• Anthony DePalma 'The Cubans: Ordinary Lives in Extraordinary Times' (2021)
• Helen Yaffe 'We Are Cuba! How A Revolutionary People Have Survived in a post-Soviet World' (2020)
posted by Joeruckus at 1:12 AM on July 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have to roll my eyes at all the bloviation about economic warfare. The people of Cuba have the same right as any other people to say "FUCK OFF, YOU'RE FIRED" to their head of state, and they deserve the chance to say it at regular intervals for any reason or no reason.
posted by ocschwar at 8:19 PM on July 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 8:19 PM on July 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
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The Cuban government is broke. Over the past two years, it has lost every major source of foreign exchange earnings it had. The collapse of oil production in Venezuela cut the export of cheap oil to Cuba by half. US pressure convinced other Latin American governments to cancel medical services contracts with Havana and send Cuban doctors home. The Covid pandemic closed the tourism industry, cutting revenue by $3.2 billion. Just before leaving office, Donald Trump made it nearly impossible for Cuban Americans to send remittances, a loss of another $3.5 billion annually and a direct blow to more than half of Cuban families.
Crazy how they just keep hitting themselves like that
posted by anazgnos at 8:40 PM on July 13, 2021 [62 favorites]