The coolsie to Nazi pipeline
August 20, 2021 4:03 PM Subscribe
Melbourne's alternative music scene has been rocked by recent revelations that one of its number is a prominent far-right agitator. Alice McNamara, formerly of 2000s punk band The Spazzys and currently proprietor of children's music education business KiddyRock, was revealed to be active in anti-lockdown, neo-Nazi and white nationalist Telegram forums under the name “Mary Manson”, as well as producing bogus medical exemption certificates for anti-maskers. (TW: screenshots of hateful discussions.)
The remaining members of The Spazzys have issued a statement condemning McNamara's views and referring to her as a “former member“. Other acquaintances of hers from the 2000s expressed shock at her transformation, which, as far as can be ascertained, appears to have been guided by a well-trodden path of increasingly extreme YouTube videos.
The remaining members of The Spazzys have issued a statement condemning McNamara's views and referring to her as a “former member“. Other acquaintances of hers from the 2000s expressed shock at her transformation, which, as far as can be ascertained, appears to have been guided by a well-trodden path of increasingly extreme YouTube videos.
It was only six short years ago that Alice McNamara was performing anti-racist anthems at the Community Cup. How did she go from performing Blackfella/Whitefella to becoming a Siege-pilled neo-Nazi?It’s this element to these stories I find genuinely frightening, that there’s the cult element to radical right wing politics that no level of education, intelligence, life experience, prepares people for.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:47 PM on August 20, 2021 [23 favorites]
no level of education, intelligence, life experience, prepares people
That strikes me as unduly pessimistic. IMHO, some people are just waiting to rip off the mask and show their viper morality, and YouTube helps them feel like plenty of "decent" people are ripping off the mask, so why shouldn't they? I mean, it's not great, but it is better than everyone being vulnerable to persuasion by verbose idiots.
Watching a Jordan Peterson video didn't send me down the rabbit hole, it made me laugh at him and then go relentlessly mock some people I know who were impressed by him because holy shit just how stupid and infantile do you have to be to find that BS compelling?
...so, to return to the topic at hand, a detailed analysis would (I suspect) find that Alice McNamara was always an asshole (or willing to be an asshole), it's just that in the past she thought she needed to hide that, whereas now she thinks there's a business case to be made.
The number one thing we can all do is to rob them of that business case -- this is, not coincidentally, why you find people complaining about "cancel culture" -- they know they can't put the mask back on, and they want the precious monies. They made their beds with vipers, let us now force them to lie in them.
posted by aramaic at 7:19 PM on August 20, 2021 [16 favorites]
That strikes me as unduly pessimistic. IMHO, some people are just waiting to rip off the mask and show their viper morality, and YouTube helps them feel like plenty of "decent" people are ripping off the mask, so why shouldn't they? I mean, it's not great, but it is better than everyone being vulnerable to persuasion by verbose idiots.
Watching a Jordan Peterson video didn't send me down the rabbit hole, it made me laugh at him and then go relentlessly mock some people I know who were impressed by him because holy shit just how stupid and infantile do you have to be to find that BS compelling?
...so, to return to the topic at hand, a detailed analysis would (I suspect) find that Alice McNamara was always an asshole (or willing to be an asshole), it's just that in the past she thought she needed to hide that, whereas now she thinks there's a business case to be made.
The number one thing we can all do is to rob them of that business case -- this is, not coincidentally, why you find people complaining about "cancel culture" -- they know they can't put the mask back on, and they want the precious monies. They made their beds with vipers, let us now force them to lie in them.
posted by aramaic at 7:19 PM on August 20, 2021 [16 favorites]
Watching a Jordan Peterson video didn't send me down the rabbit hole, it made me laugh at him and then go relentlessly mock some people I know who were impressed by him because holy shit just how stupid and infantile do you have to be to find that BS compelling?
...so, to return to the topic at hand, a detailed analysis would (I suspect) find that Alice McNamara was always an asshole (or willing to be an asshole), it's just that in the past she thought she needed to hide that, whereas now she thinks there's a business case to be made.
This is deeply asinine stuff (was McNamara born with the metaphysical property of 'being an asshole'?), and dangerous to boot. It is precisely refusing to believe that this could ever happen to you that makes it so much more likely that this will in fact some day happen to you. Because when it is happening to you, you will refuse to believe that you are being stupid, wrong, or an asshole. For you have ruled that out ahead of time.
Moreover, what this kind of rhetoric does is discredit the deradicalised as people who were naive, gullible, brainless, spineless weaklings for becoming radicalised in the first place. The stories they have to tell and the insights they have to offer about their experience risk being dismissed as the tall tales of morally inferior individuals. This may result in isolation and reradicalisation. And it breeds complacency in the general population, allowing extremist groups to continue their activities unchecked.
posted by Panthalassa at 7:36 PM on August 20, 2021 [74 favorites]
...so, to return to the topic at hand, a detailed analysis would (I suspect) find that Alice McNamara was always an asshole (or willing to be an asshole), it's just that in the past she thought she needed to hide that, whereas now she thinks there's a business case to be made.
This is deeply asinine stuff (was McNamara born with the metaphysical property of 'being an asshole'?), and dangerous to boot. It is precisely refusing to believe that this could ever happen to you that makes it so much more likely that this will in fact some day happen to you. Because when it is happening to you, you will refuse to believe that you are being stupid, wrong, or an asshole. For you have ruled that out ahead of time.
Moreover, what this kind of rhetoric does is discredit the deradicalised as people who were naive, gullible, brainless, spineless weaklings for becoming radicalised in the first place. The stories they have to tell and the insights they have to offer about their experience risk being dismissed as the tall tales of morally inferior individuals. This may result in isolation and reradicalisation. And it breeds complacency in the general population, allowing extremist groups to continue their activities unchecked.
posted by Panthalassa at 7:36 PM on August 20, 2021 [74 favorites]
That reminds me of that classic Feynman quote - "“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself.... and you are the easiest person to fool.” He was talking about science, but it likely applies in the realm of politics too.
posted by storybored at 8:29 PM on August 20, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by storybored at 8:29 PM on August 20, 2021 [17 favorites]
I have to disagree with the idea that some people are just a YouTube deep dive away from racism.
I have a co-worker. His parents are Salvadorean immigrants. Sometime near the end of the Trump presidency he sent a video to one of my other co-workers. The video was an extended riff on why Trump wasn't racist. When I asked him about the video him I got a bunch of Fox talking points and an explanation that he had started down this path when he started researching how the media distorted what conservatives said by looking at videos. The main example he cited was Candace Owen's defense of nationalism. When I was talking with him I was mostly concerned with the word games Owens was playing with National Socialism. Afterwards I remembered that she was talking to an audience that included white nationalists. He also condemned BLM as a violent organization and justified the existence of the Proud Boys as somehow necessary to control them. All Fox news talking points but also, to my mind, racist rhetoric. I know my co-worker. He doesn't appear to be a racist. I like him but he's willing to buy into easily refutable racist ideas. He didn't just stumble into a YouTube hole. He choose to climb into that hole. He's responsible for the stuff he believes. Just to give context the co-worker he emailed the video is a black Belize-an immigrant and I'm African American. He appears to genuinely believe this shit.
What I'm saying here is people don't just wind up believing wildly racist ideas. They start off believing them but they keep them quiet. Maybe they pick up some additional rhetoric along the way but despite our love of redemption narratives people don't change much. What's more the redemption of racists isn't very interesting to me. I want a society that doesn't support racism. What happens to the individual racists is only mildly relevant.
posted by rdr at 9:38 PM on August 20, 2021 [20 favorites]
I have a co-worker. His parents are Salvadorean immigrants. Sometime near the end of the Trump presidency he sent a video to one of my other co-workers. The video was an extended riff on why Trump wasn't racist. When I asked him about the video him I got a bunch of Fox talking points and an explanation that he had started down this path when he started researching how the media distorted what conservatives said by looking at videos. The main example he cited was Candace Owen's defense of nationalism. When I was talking with him I was mostly concerned with the word games Owens was playing with National Socialism. Afterwards I remembered that she was talking to an audience that included white nationalists. He also condemned BLM as a violent organization and justified the existence of the Proud Boys as somehow necessary to control them. All Fox news talking points but also, to my mind, racist rhetoric. I know my co-worker. He doesn't appear to be a racist. I like him but he's willing to buy into easily refutable racist ideas. He didn't just stumble into a YouTube hole. He choose to climb into that hole. He's responsible for the stuff he believes. Just to give context the co-worker he emailed the video is a black Belize-an immigrant and I'm African American. He appears to genuinely believe this shit.
What I'm saying here is people don't just wind up believing wildly racist ideas. They start off believing them but they keep them quiet. Maybe they pick up some additional rhetoric along the way but despite our love of redemption narratives people don't change much. What's more the redemption of racists isn't very interesting to me. I want a society that doesn't support racism. What happens to the individual racists is only mildly relevant.
posted by rdr at 9:38 PM on August 20, 2021 [20 favorites]
bending truth | how adults get indoctrinated [cc]
"I want to explore some of the mechanics of manipulative groups, dispatching some of the stereotypes about the people who get recruited by them, and reflecting on preventative measures we might take to avoid recruitment. But if there's just one thing I really want to do in this video, it's to communicate the importance of acknowledging a simple but profound fact: we can all be manipulated."
Great video. Written by a therapist. Draws on actual psychological research. Well worth your time.
posted by Panthalassa at 9:49 PM on August 20, 2021 [15 favorites]
"I want to explore some of the mechanics of manipulative groups, dispatching some of the stereotypes about the people who get recruited by them, and reflecting on preventative measures we might take to avoid recruitment. But if there's just one thing I really want to do in this video, it's to communicate the importance of acknowledging a simple but profound fact: we can all be manipulated."
Great video. Written by a therapist. Draws on actual psychological research. Well worth your time.
posted by Panthalassa at 9:49 PM on August 20, 2021 [15 favorites]
It is precisely refusing to believe that this could ever happen to you
Yes, of course, it is a world-encompassing mind virus that cannot be defeated by any known logic.
Right? C'mon, even Elie Wiesel would fall victim, obviously. That is after all why the NSDAP is ascendant across the entire world. Who can forget the legendary strength of the Sulawesi Totenkopf Brigades, with their suicidal dedication to white supremacy, surpassed only by the indomitable discipline of the Himba Shock Divisions, which have scourged the menace of Chinese communism from desert to ocean and back again. Everyone was surprised, but then they watched a Joe Rogan video, and hey presto!
...let us all pause to admire their actions...
If the alt-right mindset were even half as strong as you wish it was there would be literally no stopping them. If you want to lay down to await their inevitable victory, you go ahead, just don't be surprised when others don't.
Over-estimating the power of your enemy is as much a sin as underestimating, and either way giving up is admitting they were right.
Phrased differently: you have six months to convince me that the Gnomes of Zurich secretly run the world, starting ....
.. now.
posted by aramaic at 9:51 PM on August 20, 2021 [8 favorites]
Yes, of course, it is a world-encompassing mind virus that cannot be defeated by any known logic.
Right? C'mon, even Elie Wiesel would fall victim, obviously. That is after all why the NSDAP is ascendant across the entire world. Who can forget the legendary strength of the Sulawesi Totenkopf Brigades, with their suicidal dedication to white supremacy, surpassed only by the indomitable discipline of the Himba Shock Divisions, which have scourged the menace of Chinese communism from desert to ocean and back again. Everyone was surprised, but then they watched a Joe Rogan video, and hey presto!
...let us all pause to admire their actions...
If the alt-right mindset were even half as strong as you wish it was there would be literally no stopping them. If you want to lay down to await their inevitable victory, you go ahead, just don't be surprised when others don't.
Over-estimating the power of your enemy is as much a sin as underestimating, and either way giving up is admitting they were right.
Phrased differently: you have six months to convince me that the Gnomes of Zurich secretly run the world, starting ....
.. now.
posted by aramaic at 9:51 PM on August 20, 2021 [8 favorites]
Cool story bro.
posted by Panthalassa at 10:04 PM on August 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Panthalassa at 10:04 PM on August 20, 2021 [6 favorites]
The idea that some people are just secret hateful bigots, and the only thing we can really do is liquidate them before they do any real damage, is deeply, deeply alarming. Thankfully, the research I've seen suggests otherwise.
*Phrased differently: you have six months to convince me that the Gnomes of Zurich secretly run the world, starting ....
.. now.*
This is impossible, because for this to work, we'd need to build a pipeline that would expose you to false ideas about shadowy figures running the world that mean to destroy your way of life, and then somehow pivot to having you call them 'Gnomes of Zurich' instead of Jews. (The anti-semitic pipeline is so strong, and so well-established, that it can be plugged in almost anywhere, which is why anti-semitism keeps turning up despite its foundational texts being such obvious horseshit.)
It is absolutely not hard to believe at all that someone might get radicalised through YouTube videos, because we have lots of evidence of this happening, especially to people who should probably have realised they're advocating their own oppression! We know how powerful the YouTube recommendation algorithm has been at driving this behaviour, because we've seen it elevating the absolute fringe belief of flat earth into the mainstream. People do not secretly come out of school thinking the earth is flat and have to hide it, any more than they secretly harbour special resentment against black people and have to hide it (I mean all white people do, to some extent, that's just Western culture). These pipelines are good at exposing you to ideas you aren't equipped to respond to and then suggesting a resolution that lets you off the hook for being wrong.
The alt-right, in particular, are good at driving wedges through communities that are having difficulty adjusting to new realities. It's why basically every wellness person went off the deep end when COVID hit - they either admit that they've been wrong about everything for years, or there's a nice, well-groomed person who is happy to give you someone to blame.
On YouTube, there is a thing cutely called the 'Pewdiepipeline', where the alt-right have been able to coax the recommendation engine from edgelord comedians that get a few too many Nazis in their chat, to 'accessible' alt-right content in the same style, which then leads to cross-pollination shows where they get exposed to other alt-right personalities, and then gradually to openly hateful material. At this point I would just be restating Ian Danskin's video on How to Radicalise A Normie, so just watch that instead, or look up the Pewdiepipeline.
tl;dr: people are not secretly hateful and taking off the mask; there is a rickety but refined system to drive people who feel vulnerable to start to see that hurt as being something that someone else is responsible for, which is an entirely human reaction.
posted by Merus at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2021 [42 favorites]
*Phrased differently: you have six months to convince me that the Gnomes of Zurich secretly run the world, starting ....
.. now.*
This is impossible, because for this to work, we'd need to build a pipeline that would expose you to false ideas about shadowy figures running the world that mean to destroy your way of life, and then somehow pivot to having you call them 'Gnomes of Zurich' instead of Jews. (The anti-semitic pipeline is so strong, and so well-established, that it can be plugged in almost anywhere, which is why anti-semitism keeps turning up despite its foundational texts being such obvious horseshit.)
It is absolutely not hard to believe at all that someone might get radicalised through YouTube videos, because we have lots of evidence of this happening, especially to people who should probably have realised they're advocating their own oppression! We know how powerful the YouTube recommendation algorithm has been at driving this behaviour, because we've seen it elevating the absolute fringe belief of flat earth into the mainstream. People do not secretly come out of school thinking the earth is flat and have to hide it, any more than they secretly harbour special resentment against black people and have to hide it (I mean all white people do, to some extent, that's just Western culture). These pipelines are good at exposing you to ideas you aren't equipped to respond to and then suggesting a resolution that lets you off the hook for being wrong.
The alt-right, in particular, are good at driving wedges through communities that are having difficulty adjusting to new realities. It's why basically every wellness person went off the deep end when COVID hit - they either admit that they've been wrong about everything for years, or there's a nice, well-groomed person who is happy to give you someone to blame.
On YouTube, there is a thing cutely called the 'Pewdiepipeline', where the alt-right have been able to coax the recommendation engine from edgelord comedians that get a few too many Nazis in their chat, to 'accessible' alt-right content in the same style, which then leads to cross-pollination shows where they get exposed to other alt-right personalities, and then gradually to openly hateful material. At this point I would just be restating Ian Danskin's video on How to Radicalise A Normie, so just watch that instead, or look up the Pewdiepipeline.
tl;dr: people are not secretly hateful and taking off the mask; there is a rickety but refined system to drive people who feel vulnerable to start to see that hurt as being something that someone else is responsible for, which is an entirely human reaction.
posted by Merus at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2021 [42 favorites]
It is possible there exists some middle ground between 'all people are equally vulnerable targets for radicalization' and 'radicalization solely affects people who already secretly held heinous views."
posted by eponym at 11:04 PM on August 20, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by eponym at 11:04 PM on August 20, 2021 [24 favorites]
C'mon, even Elie Wiesel would fall victim, obviously.
Wasn’t he notoriously anti-Palestinian? He was an Israeli nationalist.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:34 PM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wasn’t he notoriously anti-Palestinian? He was an Israeli nationalist.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:34 PM on August 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
Because I'm wary to do the research on the internet for fear: can anyone speak about the 'Gnomes of Zurich' meme, how it developed? Is it another veiled anti-semitic canard, like the Protocols of Zion? Wikipedia sources it to British Labour party in the 1960s. I suppose my question is, did it start as anti-semitic, or was it just appropriated by the fascists, just as they hoover up everything else in conspiracy culture?
Oh for the more innocent days of the 90s, of X-Files and the Illuminati collectible card game. Nazis really do ruin everything.
To get back to the track of the conversation: I think it also behooves us to remember that humans are not neurologically consistent across their lifespans. You can have somebody that is a personally cogent adult that is able to resist indoctrination up until a radical neurological change (isolation, depression, a significant trauma) suddenly creates a gap in their informational defenses.
And likewise, you can have edgy stupid teens who actually mature into adults who are able to recognize and renounce the indoctrinations which ensnared them at an early, more turbulent period of their beings.
And so, while you may be media savvy Now, there is no guarantee that you shall always have your cognitive armor about you. And that another person succumbed to radicalization at one dark chapter of their life does not mean that they cannot educated and rehabilitated.
In short, humans are a land of contrasts. Unlike gnomes.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:43 PM on August 20, 2021 [15 favorites]
Oh for the more innocent days of the 90s, of X-Files and the Illuminati collectible card game. Nazis really do ruin everything.
To get back to the track of the conversation: I think it also behooves us to remember that humans are not neurologically consistent across their lifespans. You can have somebody that is a personally cogent adult that is able to resist indoctrination up until a radical neurological change (isolation, depression, a significant trauma) suddenly creates a gap in their informational defenses.
And likewise, you can have edgy stupid teens who actually mature into adults who are able to recognize and renounce the indoctrinations which ensnared them at an early, more turbulent period of their beings.
And so, while you may be media savvy Now, there is no guarantee that you shall always have your cognitive armor about you. And that another person succumbed to radicalization at one dark chapter of their life does not mean that they cannot educated and rehabilitated.
In short, humans are a land of contrasts. Unlike gnomes.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:43 PM on August 20, 2021 [15 favorites]
Gnomes of Zurich refers to the Swiss. It is a term from the Illuminati card game by Steve Jackson and probably the Illuminatus! Trilogy by the Roberts. tbh believing the Swiss banking system has been involved in all sorts of malicious things isn’t really conspiratorial at all, much less prejudiced. But they would be more likely to be facilitators and middlemen than the people drawing up the plans.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:56 PM on August 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:56 PM on August 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
OTOH, the “gnomes” part could be a reference to caricatures of Jews in 19th-century racist cartoons (who are often depicted as twisted dwarflike beings), so I'd say it could be a dog-whistle, or a branch extended to those committed to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about banking.
posted by acb at 2:36 AM on August 21, 2021
posted by acb at 2:36 AM on August 21, 2021
One takeaway from this is a sense of dread about anyone slightly kooky or alternative one hasn't been in contact with for a while. That vegan crystal-healing enthusiast you shared a joint with at a house party in 2006? Quite possibly foaming at the mouth for racial genocide now.
posted by acb at 2:39 AM on August 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:39 AM on August 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
That vegan crystal-healing enthusiast you shared a joint with at a house party in 2006? Quite possibly foaming at the mouth for racial genocide now.
Conspirituality is a podcast that tracks this phenomenon neatly...
posted by progosk at 3:59 AM on August 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
Conspirituality is a podcast that tracks this phenomenon neatly...
posted by progosk at 3:59 AM on August 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
Just a note for anyone coming here to debate this in the abstract: Alice McNamara is a real person here in Melbourne, who was in a beloved band that had many friends here in Melbourne's live music scene. She was teaching kids music and deliberately indoctrinating those kids with far-right material (seriously, RTFA, but be warned it is not nice). There are friends and colleagues of mine right now who are asking some pretty searching questions about how someone they knew and cared about could end up here, and what it means for our very close-knit scene.
Arguing the over-under on whether or not YouTube radicalisation is real very fucking much misses the point.
posted by prismatic7 at 4:07 AM on August 21, 2021 [43 favorites]
Arguing the over-under on whether or not YouTube radicalisation is real very fucking much misses the point.
posted by prismatic7 at 4:07 AM on August 21, 2021 [43 favorites]
Welcome to MetaFilter I guess?
posted by some loser at 5:41 AM on August 21, 2021
posted by some loser at 5:41 AM on August 21, 2021
I mean, her band name was an ugly ableist slur, so...
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:55 AM on August 21, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:55 AM on August 21, 2021 [13 favorites]
Okay, so: cynicism aside, how is the community reacting? One of the things I was thinking about as I read the full article was, yes, the specific connotations of the name of the band: it is a slur, but a slur I understand is treated less seriously outside the US than it is here? It is hard for me to say how central the name was to the themes of the band and the music and McNamara's original public work; I'm just not familiar enough with her specifics to comment clearly, which is one of the reasons I didn't.
But I do wonder about the connection between someone whose band was named after an "acceptable" slur and the later evolution of her views. Whether or not you're theoretically evoking physical spastic movements (like someone with cerebral palsy) or impulsion, hyperactivity and inattention (like someone with ADHD) "Spazzy" is definitely a word that mocks disabled people in a specific way... which also gets picked up and used by some disabled people to mock themselves, sometimes without pain and sometimes as a form of self harm.
It's an interesting choice. I think that because the link is designed to explain to the audience that yes McFarlane is really this Nazi, folks tend to focus in on the parts of the article that echo things we are familiar with and can speak confidently about. Do you mind telling us what context you have for, say, the band's name and community engagement?
posted by sciatrix at 6:31 AM on August 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
But I do wonder about the connection between someone whose band was named after an "acceptable" slur and the later evolution of her views. Whether or not you're theoretically evoking physical spastic movements (like someone with cerebral palsy) or impulsion, hyperactivity and inattention (like someone with ADHD) "Spazzy" is definitely a word that mocks disabled people in a specific way... which also gets picked up and used by some disabled people to mock themselves, sometimes without pain and sometimes as a form of self harm.
It's an interesting choice. I think that because the link is designed to explain to the audience that yes McFarlane is really this Nazi, folks tend to focus in on the parts of the article that echo things we are familiar with and can speak confidently about. Do you mind telling us what context you have for, say, the band's name and community engagement?
posted by sciatrix at 6:31 AM on August 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
The band's name I've always disliked, and I have personally flagged uses of that particular slur on Metafilter and elsewhere as someone with close family who are PWD and who often works with PWD in arts contexts. I personally was not into them, but they were in high rotation on local and national radio during their mid-00s heyday, and gigged a lot. I don't really know how to contextualise this: Melbourne is a very active city for music and the arts. I've been in the arts and music scene here for 20 years or more. I've got mates who book venues, play shows, do radio shows, play footy for the teams in the Community Cup that is cited in TFA. An acquaintance had a kid in McNamara's music courses. Another mate dated Jane Gazzo (also mentioned in TFA) when we were at uni together.
I guess the context for the name is the same as other local punk bands like The Fuck Fucks, Hard-Ons, and so forth. It's not ok, but it is explicable. As for their community engagement, the video of McNamara performing (an anti-racist anthem no less) at the Community Cup is... Peak Melbourne I guess? Played between the Megahertz (drawn from the ranks of community radio) and the Rockdogs (pub teams), it's a big Melbourne event bringing live music, local celebrities, and footy. Are there charity matches for baseball where the city's foremost funk DJ is setting up a no-hitter while a band comprised of rock legends is jamming on classic covers? This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
I'm not a muso as such, but I perform in bands, fly a console, and DJ. When I say my community is soul-searching, I literally mean the people I am in contact with every day.
posted by prismatic7 at 7:21 AM on August 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
I guess the context for the name is the same as other local punk bands like The Fuck Fucks, Hard-Ons, and so forth. It's not ok, but it is explicable. As for their community engagement, the video of McNamara performing (an anti-racist anthem no less) at the Community Cup is... Peak Melbourne I guess? Played between the Megahertz (drawn from the ranks of community radio) and the Rockdogs (pub teams), it's a big Melbourne event bringing live music, local celebrities, and footy. Are there charity matches for baseball where the city's foremost funk DJ is setting up a no-hitter while a band comprised of rock legends is jamming on classic covers? This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
I'm not a muso as such, but I perform in bands, fly a console, and DJ. When I say my community is soul-searching, I literally mean the people I am in contact with every day.
posted by prismatic7 at 7:21 AM on August 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Also worth noting, Kat and Lucy, the other members of the band, cite McNamara's behaviour and beliefs as a reason for the band's lack of recent activity and explicitly repudiate it - see the section "What Next?" in the article.
posted by prismatic7 at 7:32 AM on August 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by prismatic7 at 7:32 AM on August 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
What's telling is McNamara not responding or commenting.
I do think that views on things like race or equality can be picked up for shallow reasons: it's what the group you are part of believes so you echo it. You get positive feedback. And you want to belong.
Just the same way, racist online groups can give you tons of positive feedback for saying shit they like. And if feels forbidden, naughty, and makes you part of a club that's both superior (being white) and feeling in possession of an ultimate truth that others are too cowardly to embrace.
We've all known people who said liberal-ish things as teens but now spout Trump support. It's not that unusual. People reshape themselves for lots of reasons.
McNamara thought she could have it both ways: trade on the cachet of her old career and be embraced by her new Nazi friends. She got caught.
The real question a lot of us want to ask is "do you really believe this shit?" But it doesn't really matter.
posted by emjaybee at 7:50 AM on August 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
I do think that views on things like race or equality can be picked up for shallow reasons: it's what the group you are part of believes so you echo it. You get positive feedback. And you want to belong.
Just the same way, racist online groups can give you tons of positive feedback for saying shit they like. And if feels forbidden, naughty, and makes you part of a club that's both superior (being white) and feeling in possession of an ultimate truth that others are too cowardly to embrace.
We've all known people who said liberal-ish things as teens but now spout Trump support. It's not that unusual. People reshape themselves for lots of reasons.
McNamara thought she could have it both ways: trade on the cachet of her old career and be embraced by her new Nazi friends. She got caught.
The real question a lot of us want to ask is "do you really believe this shit?" But it doesn't really matter.
posted by emjaybee at 7:50 AM on August 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
It is possible there exists some middle ground between 'all people are equally vulnerable targets for radicalization' and 'radicalization solely affects people who already secretly held heinous views."
That's what the gnomes want you to think.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:58 AM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's what the gnomes want you to think.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:58 AM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
We can all be manipulated, but it's always going to be easier to manipulate those who already harbor the target beliefs even if they've never stated them aloud.
posted by tommasz at 10:51 AM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tommasz at 10:51 AM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Disabled people in the United Kingdom often consider 'spastic' to be one of the most offensive terms related to disability .
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 11:09 AM on August 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Martha My Dear Prudence at 11:09 AM on August 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Another mate dated Jane Gazzo (also mentioned in TFA)
Meanwhile, while Gazzo (who continues to co-run an Australian 90s alternative nostalgia group on Facebook) asserts that she is not involved in neo-Nazi groups (and has not been found to be involved), there are claims that she has disseminated Covid/5G conspiracy theories, and is deeper in the anti-mask/anti-vaccination movement than so far claimed.
posted by acb at 11:37 AM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, while Gazzo (who continues to co-run an Australian 90s alternative nostalgia group on Facebook) asserts that she is not involved in neo-Nazi groups (and has not been found to be involved), there are claims that she has disseminated Covid/5G conspiracy theories, and is deeper in the anti-mask/anti-vaccination movement than so far claimed.
posted by acb at 11:37 AM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
The real question a lot of us want to ask is "do you really believe this shit?" But it doesn't really matter.
Or, as they say, “nobody cares that you're only an ironic pigfucker”.
posted by acb at 11:40 AM on August 21, 2021 [16 favorites]
Or, as they say, “nobody cares that you're only an ironic pigfucker”.
posted by acb at 11:40 AM on August 21, 2021 [16 favorites]
there is a rickety but refined system to drive people who feel vulnerable to start to see that hurt as being something that someone else is responsible for, which is an entirely human reaction.
Or as another Melbourne band from even further back put it:
“Well when you’re hit it must seem a pretty good choice
But they give all of our malice voice
What do we expect
If we won’t open our arms”
posted by nickmark at 12:41 PM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Or as another Melbourne band from even further back put it:
“Well when you’re hit it must seem a pretty good choice
But they give all of our malice voice
What do we expect
If we won’t open our arms”
posted by nickmark at 12:41 PM on August 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
IMHO, some people are just waiting to rip off the mask and show their viper morality,
Since when was being an overt white supremacist in a Western nation with long histories and contemporary policies of advantaging whites and disadvantafing PoC some kind of unique 'viper morality' that could only be evident in the worst of the worst?
On the one hand, it's definitely possible that violently nativist logic can be made persuasive and evocative for just about anyone. On the other hand, it's not as if the very society we live in now hasn't already been reifying these supremacist ideals since our youths, and finally just having these elucidated and associated with some kind of political capital and emotional connection is cause enough to generate such an extreme transformation.
You don't have to be a vulnerable youth or a fucked up person to turn into a white supremacist in the West, and this is just more evidence towards just how much work there is still to do in terms of meaningful, durable anti-racist organizing.
posted by paimapi at 9:37 PM on August 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
Since when was being an overt white supremacist in a Western nation with long histories and contemporary policies of advantaging whites and disadvantafing PoC some kind of unique 'viper morality' that could only be evident in the worst of the worst?
On the one hand, it's definitely possible that violently nativist logic can be made persuasive and evocative for just about anyone. On the other hand, it's not as if the very society we live in now hasn't already been reifying these supremacist ideals since our youths, and finally just having these elucidated and associated with some kind of political capital and emotional connection is cause enough to generate such an extreme transformation.
You don't have to be a vulnerable youth or a fucked up person to turn into a white supremacist in the West, and this is just more evidence towards just how much work there is still to do in terms of meaningful, durable anti-racist organizing.
posted by paimapi at 9:37 PM on August 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
Let's concede it's a complicated phenomenon with more than one cause. Especially when it comes to the very young, both more naive and more vulnerable to peer pressure.
I still think the (white) progressive discussion (in America, at least) often has a certain oxygen-deprived quality that comes from not having significant experience with these people in your lives. Like you can't really believe these people exist, or take them seriously on their own terms. But it is possible--easy, even--to go through this racist American society both perceiving yourself to be and perceived as a normal person while holding vile priors. These are the background beliefs, more or less developed, more or less conscious, of a significant segment of the population otherwise just going about their business in contexts in which, on a day-to-day basis, life does little to directly mobilize. The main question then becomes how much encouragement they get to name their beliefs to themselves and then follow them out.
Setting aside the very young, those old enough to be struggling with cognitive decline, and some of the very traumatized, you don't end up believing one of these conspiracies without already having adopted some terrible priors.
posted by praemunire at 10:36 PM on August 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I still think the (white) progressive discussion (in America, at least) often has a certain oxygen-deprived quality that comes from not having significant experience with these people in your lives. Like you can't really believe these people exist, or take them seriously on their own terms. But it is possible--easy, even--to go through this racist American society both perceiving yourself to be and perceived as a normal person while holding vile priors. These are the background beliefs, more or less developed, more or less conscious, of a significant segment of the population otherwise just going about their business in contexts in which, on a day-to-day basis, life does little to directly mobilize. The main question then becomes how much encouragement they get to name their beliefs to themselves and then follow them out.
Setting aside the very young, those old enough to be struggling with cognitive decline, and some of the very traumatized, you don't end up believing one of these conspiracies without already having adopted some terrible priors.
posted by praemunire at 10:36 PM on August 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
There’s a firm difference between the kind of tedious Australian drunk-uncle suburban racism that everyone in this country is so very familiar with, that’s baked into all of our newspapers and TV, and that isn’t at all surprising to hear from even so-called progressive alt musos, and this kind of fringe baroque cultic conspiratoria. Making a middle aged Australian musician racist is about as hard as making a teenager surly, but convincing them of the Protocols? That’s another thing entirely.
Australia is definitely the first kind of place, the second is pretty rare—and surprising, and shocking, when it emerges.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:51 PM on August 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Australia is definitely the first kind of place, the second is pretty rare—and surprising, and shocking, when it emerges.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:51 PM on August 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Stating the obvious here, but those of who are white and generally well-intentioned usually don’t personally witness the vast majority of racism (both micro- and macro-aggressions) that people of colour experience. From the opposite side of the world, I don’t know enough to comment on the particular example described here; but in general if we want to know whether someone who has veered into white supremacist extremism was quietly leaning that way before or whether they have undergone a major change, it seems to me that we would need to ask the people of color who they’ve interacted with in the past in order to get an accurate assessment. In many cases, I suspect it turns out that the change in someone’s behaviour is notable, but not as large a change as white observers would think.
posted by eviemath at 7:54 AM on August 22, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 7:54 AM on August 22, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't think the second type is as rare anymore, Fiasco. 60 Minutes had a piece on neo-Nazi recruitment this week, showing that it's getting to be a problem. Even Peter Dutton has had to acknowledge ASIO's assessment that right-wing extremists are a major problem now.
As far as McNamara and Gazzo's priors go, I'd give a lot of weight to the opinions of people of colour from the Melbourne arts and music scene, just like eviemath suggests. I haven't heard anything specific so far, but people might prefer to share that kind of info within the community only instead of publicly.
posted by harriet vane at 7:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
As far as McNamara and Gazzo's priors go, I'd give a lot of weight to the opinions of people of colour from the Melbourne arts and music scene, just like eviemath suggests. I haven't heard anything specific so far, but people might prefer to share that kind of info within the community only instead of publicly.
posted by harriet vane at 7:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't underplay the aesthetic motivation for going far right. I think for some, it starts in being edgy and contrarian and adopting a secret and thrilling set of signs, the creativity of it. The meaning is secondary to the presentation. That is how they go from being apparently left counterculture to right counterculture without any internal contradictions. Artists and musicians may be particularly vulnerable to this route.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:19 PM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:19 PM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I have personally encountered Australians who were invested in the Rothschild/Elders of Zion mythology. I think there would be more of them given the right conditions, but they don't seem to be a present force in Australian politics. McNamara's motives seem different, though, and the "secret and thrilling" motivation makes a lot of sense to me. I was struck by how childish McNamara's postings were; the way she reveled in transgressional speech, and the schoolyard chatter about which groups she was willing to associate with.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:52 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:52 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Regarding the Gnomes of Zurich, they were the tangential subject of an old AskMetafilter question I asked over a decade ago.
posted by y2karl at 4:40 PM on August 25, 2021
posted by y2karl at 4:40 PM on August 25, 2021
Apparently it's been a long-used phrase to refer to Swiss bankers.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:54 PM on August 26, 2021
posted by Apocryphon at 2:54 PM on August 26, 2021
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posted by chavenet at 4:25 PM on August 20, 2021 [15 favorites]