Delta Air Lines to require workers be vaccinated or pay

August 25, 2021 7:59 AM

Delta Air Lines said Wednesday that it will require employees to be vaccinated against the coronavirus or face the alternative of weekly testing and a $200 monthly surcharge for health insurance. (SLWaPo) (alt, non-paywall source)

Unvaccinated employees will immediately be required to wear masks indoors on company property. On Sept. 12, unvaccinated workers will be required to be tested weekly for the coronavirus, then isolate if the results come back positive. On Sept. 30, a coronavirus pay protection program offered through the company will apply only to breakthrough cases.

On Nov. 1, the $200 health insurance surcharge will begin.

posted by DirtyOldTown (224 comments total)

Good.
posted by simmering octagon at 8:05 AM on August 25, 2021 [60 favorites]

Serious question: are there still unions in the US? I ask because they are a very very big thing here in Canada, and I am wondering how unions will deal with increasing vaccination mandates for workplaces.

I guess if you can't get them with the carrot, get them with any one of the sticks at your disposal.
posted by Kitteh at 8:07 AM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

I'd rather we were following Canada's example and requiring crew and "all commercial air travelers, passengers on inter-provincial trains and passengers on large, marine vessels with overnight accommodations such as cruise ships" to be vaccinated. But this is at least a step in the right direction.
posted by jedicus at 8:08 AM on August 25, 2021 [29 favorites]

This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company. In recent weeks since the rise of the B.1.617.2 variant, all Delta employees who have been hospitalized with COVID were not fully vaccinated.

I do think it's hilarious they're not calling it the delta variant. I mean, of course they aren't, but this is the only place I've seen it called anything else.
posted by FencingGal at 8:10 AM on August 25, 2021 [222 favorites]

There are still unions in the US and some are fighting vaccine mandates and some aren't.
posted by octothorpe at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

Serious question: are there still unions in the US? I ask because they are a very very big thing here in Canada, and I am wondering how unions will deal with increasing vaccination mandates for workplaces.

There are unions. Some are opposing mandates, some are okay with mandates but just want it to go through the normal collective bargaining process so that it doesn't set precedents for skipping that process. See, for example, the Service Trades Council Union recently agreeing to a vaccine mandate for union Disney World employees (that's the one in Florida; no deal yet with the union employees in California).
posted by jedicus at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

Yes, people need to get vaccinated, but...

I'm sure Delta was absolutely thrilled at the opportunity to put a policy like this in place.
posted by cinchona at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2021

I'm not sure the unions are going to be a positive force here, in the US or in Canada.

Example: The Toronto Police Association has just announced it's opposing the mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations announced today.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:19 AM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

My workplace has for years had a surcharge for tobacco users due to the direct increased costs the company plan has to bear for them. I am glad to see this taking hold. Since Delta is HQ in Georgia, I am guessing a vaccine mandate is out of the question. This gets them as close to that without enraging the GA Legislature.
posted by msbutah at 8:22 AM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

Weekly tests? Weekly? That's pathetic. Here in the UK, at my and many other workplaces, we have to have a test that is no more than 72 hours old at any time we are in site. Regardless of whether we're vaccinated or not. Despite the fact that I'm talking about workplaces where we do not deal directly with the public.

And here an airline, flying members of the public, only requires weekly testing. And only if you're not vaccinated.

Wow.
posted by Dysk at 8:22 AM on August 25, 2021 [43 favorites]

While I do not operate at the level that would put me in touch with companies the size of Delta, my work does have me interacting fairly consistently with C-suite people these days. And whatever you believe about the politics or morality of the average CEO/CFO, they are nevertheless very, very different people than working and middle class MAGAs in the wild.

These people approach life as a series of cost/benefit scenarios. They have done the math and vaccines will get butts back into office chairs, consumers into stores, and the B2B market flowing again.

Politics is one thing. But to these minds, nothing can get in the way of the money flowing. Think Arthur Jensen from Network: "It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today." The money must flow.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:24 AM on August 25, 2021 [52 favorites]

I was just about to link to a story about the cops in Toronto; I would put the odds on the city and/or province caving on mandatory vaccination for the police union at 100%.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:25 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

I do think it's hilarious they're not calling it the delta variant.

i just want to get on the airplane and drink my beer without thinking about the apocalypse thank you
posted by kaibutsu at 8:28 AM on August 25, 2021 [5 favorites]

I'm sure Delta was absolutely thrilled at the opportunity to put a policy like this in place.

This is why I do not like this. I hope someone can put me in my place as I'm not being contrarian and don't want to sound like a radio personality but I'm going to make a slippery slope argument: What about the multitude of other risky behaviors that directly impact the cost of health insurance? Even going beyond societal ills of smoking, not working out, over eating, etc. with such thinking we're only a very logical leap to also raising premiums on people who snowboard or ride bikes. I know premiums increase due to age and other factors and I guess I should make it clear that unlike most Americans I think healthcare is a basic human right and is why charging a tax for things you're legally allowed to do -- such as get a vaccine -- is a bit gross.

This behavior doesn't usually lead to people cancelling their Disney+ subscription because they have to pay extra a month. This usually contributes to the cycle of poverty. Marginalized and lower-economic communities are by far the least vaccinated and have historically in the past been the most abused by large institutions ostensibly meant to help them. This surcharge, tax, penalty or whatever you want to call it seems most likely to burden them the most. In my experience company's like this wait until you can pay then put your account in arrears, then tack on a bunch of fees that don't correspond to anything other than "because we can" and, again, contribute to the cycle of poverty.

I'm well aware that unlike most health problems, like skiing, Covid is unique in that not being vaccinated in theory creates more variants and increases the chance of so-called breakthrough infections among the vaccinated. It is not an apples to apples comparison. I don't think there's a good solution but I don't feel that this is getting us any closer.
posted by geoff. at 8:29 AM on August 25, 2021 [21 favorites]

I'm sure Delta was absolutely thrilled at the opportunity to put a policy like this in place.

I think its more of an end around not pissing off the Georgia Politicians who also love to give Delta tax breaks rather than an effort to weaken the unions.
posted by JPD at 8:30 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

There is no mandatory vaccination in the works right now for my regional healthcare system. If you are one of the 26% that hasn't or won't, you must be tested daily as well as watch a video about why vaccines are important.
posted by Kitteh at 8:30 AM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

Nice step but yesterday I heard the beginning of noises about requiring proof of vaccination for all airline passengers. That will be the game-changer (and quite welcome IMO). Will it be up to TSA to verify this status, at the security checkpoint?
posted by Rash at 8:33 AM on August 25, 2021 [24 favorites]

Police in 2021:
1) Obsessed with the idea that their jobs are uniquely dangerous
2) Dying from COVID more than all other causes combined
3) Opposed to vaccine mandate
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:34 AM on August 25, 2021 [178 favorites]

Good article. I heard an interview with United's CEO who had a good laugh at the naming of the Delta variant.

Chicago's police union is a no on mandatory vaccines. They also had filed a grievance over lack of PPE last year. Wondering how this will play out.

So...I think the membership of police unions and who they politically endorse and what ideas they promote are really interesting topics generally...
posted by zerobyproxy at 8:34 AM on August 25, 2021

United Campus Workers of Georgia are demanding a vaccine mandate for our campuses so that our workplaces are safe enough to work in. Please note, in Georgia, as state employees, our union is unable to engage in collective bargaining. All we can do is call our representatives and then stand on the street and shout, so that's what we do. Y'all who live in places where vaccination is already common and unions have actual power have no clue how good you have it.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:34 AM on August 25, 2021 [36 favorites]

Nice step but yesterday I heard the beginning of noises about requiring vaccination of all airline passengers. That will be the game-changer.

Restricting Air Travel Would Encourage COVID-19 Vaccinations, Expert Says
posted by jquinby at 8:35 AM on August 25, 2021 [17 favorites]

I'm happy to see large corporations using their powers for good instead of evil.
posted by freakazoid at 8:36 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

Excellent. Does this apply to passengers?
posted by pompomtom at 8:39 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

I can't remember where I read it, but it was in conjunction with border guards finding fake vaccination receipts from folks trying to enter Canada. It was "wait, you'll pay a ton of money for a fake vaccination receipt when you could literally get the vaccine for free."

And I think that right there summed up a lot for me in terms of how detached from reality some folks are about this.
posted by Kitteh at 8:42 AM on August 25, 2021 [28 favorites]

I hope someone can put me in my place as I'm not being contrarian and don't want to sound like a radio personality but I'm going to make a slippery slope argument: What about the multitude of other risky behaviors that directly impact the cost of health insurance? Even going beyond societal ills of smoking, not working out, over eating, etc. with such thinking we're only a very logical leap to also raising premiums on people who snowboard or ride bikes. I know premiums increase due to age and other factors and I guess I should make it clear that unlike most Americans I think healthcare is a basic human right and is why charging a tax for things you're legally allowed to do -- such as get a vaccine -- is a bit gross.

This is an apples-and-oranges argument because

1. The reason Delta is requiring its employees to get vaccinated is not because they are trying to "keep down the costs of health insurance", and

2. Smoking, over-eating, and not working out don't directly infect innocent bystanders.

If Delta also required is employees to be vaccinated against polio or something, and there were a similar pushback, then we can make that comparison.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:42 AM on August 25, 2021 [35 favorites]

My wife calls airplanes “plague tubes”. We haven’t flown since this all started.
posted by freecellwizard at 8:43 AM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

> Police in 2021:
1) Obsessed with the idea that their jobs are uniquely dangerous
2) Dying from COVID more than all other causes combined
3) Opposed to vaccine mandate

I think what police unions are really opposed to is the idea that anyone has any real control over their actions. If and when this issue goes from push to shove, it may prove to be an unpleasantly interesting demonstration of who really holds the power in any given municipality (hint: it's the organization that politicians have funneled billions of dollars' worth of military-grade weaponry to over the past few decades).
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:44 AM on August 25, 2021 [54 favorites]

This also must have been the thing I heard covered on NPR this morning; I missed exactly who the speaker was, I only turned on in time for them to mention that it was time to "stop coddling" the anti-vaxxers and pointing out that "the people who have been vaccinated have feelings too, we need to consider them."

I admit that this was in part influenced by my bullied-kid-always-getting-asked-to-sympathize-with-her-attackers past, but I nearly cheered when I heard that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:49 AM on August 25, 2021 [69 favorites]

Unvaccinated employees will immediately be required to wear masks indoors on company property.

That's good and all, but I kinda think all employees should be required to mask, vaccinated or not.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2021 [22 favorites]

My wife calls airplanes “plague tubes”.

Your wife is a wise person.
posted by pompomtom at 8:54 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

My wife calls airplanes “plague tubes”. We haven’t flown since this all started.

The actual flight is pretty safe, especially after the plane has taken off and air is turning over in the cabin. The highest risk part is after pushback from the terminal but before take off, when air turnover is very low.

The bigger risks are from the rest of the trip: the airport (especially security lines), restaurants, visiting people, etc. If there were many places in the world without substantial community spread then travel would be a bad idea because of the risk of introducing COVID to a new area, but that ship has sailed with few exceptions.
posted by jedicus at 8:56 AM on August 25, 2021 [30 favorites]

To be clear the practical upshot is still the same: don't fly if you can help it (which is a good idea anyway because climate change) but there's good evidence that the plane ride itself is pretty safe, especially for short-haul flights without meal service, and not much evidence that it's not safe. There have only been a few superspreader events traced to flights, despite air travel returning to pre-pandemic levels. Which, again, to be clear, is a bad thing for lots of reasons, but the risk of infection from the flight itself is not the main one.
posted by jedicus at 9:05 AM on August 25, 2021 [11 favorites]

This also must have been the thing I heard covered on NPR this morning; I missed exactly who the speaker was, I only turned on in time for them to mention that it was time to "stop coddling" the anti-vaxxers and pointing out that "the people who have been vaccinated have feelings too, we need to consider them."

That was actually a separate story, reporting on comments from a former Obama administration security official.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:07 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

Even going beyond societal ills of smoking, not working out, over eating, etc. with such thinking we're only a very logical leap to also raising premiums on people who snowboard or ride bikes.

My private supplemental medical insurance in the UK, as well as every travel medical insurance I've ever taken out has a long list of general exclusions. I've got additional coverage (mostly through the membership clubs) for SCUBA, offshore sailing, and mountaineering. Are things different in the US? (I could see that they would be since unlike the US this is only supplemental coverage for me and not really necessary).
posted by atrazine at 9:12 AM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

There is probably another FPP about performing artists and venues insisting on vaccination/negative test results for entry. To the surprise of no one familiar with him, Jason Isbell has been one of the prominent voices on this.

But then, Jason Isbell is pretty much always great about pretty much everything.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:12 AM on August 25, 2021 [18 favorites]

This is why I do not like this. I hope someone can put me in my place as I'm not being contrarian and don't want to sound like a radio personality but I'm going to make a slippery slope argument: What about the multitude of other risky behaviors that directly impact the cost of health insurance?

I agree. I think it would be better if Delta just mandated that employees receive the jab or be fired / furloughed / whatever -- that is, acting in their role as employer and not as health insurer. I don't like where that heads.

I will note however that Delta is I believe self-insured, and so many ACA requirements (including differences in premiums based on pre-existing conditions or previous enrollee actions/lack of actions, apparently) may not apply. I don't think that employers which offer plans subject to the ACA, which is most companies especially small and medium sized ones, have this flexibility.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:15 AM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

Do a vaccine mandate; do not give extra sick days to people who get Covid and aren't vaccinated; require masks; require that the employee provides negative test results at their own cost, even. But I'm not really happy about fining employees who don't get vaccinated.

I was hoping that at least this would swing back to more vaccine mandates and fewer ways to get exempted but it hasn't really worked as well as I would like.
posted by jeather at 9:19 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

My private supplemental medical insurance in the UK, as well as every travel medical insurance I've ever taken out has a long list of general exclusions. I've got additional coverage (mostly through the membership clubs) for SCUBA, offshore sailing, and mountaineering. Are things different in the US? (I could see that they would be since unlike the US this is only supplemental coverage for me and not really necessary).

Yes. Employer-offered coverage here is comprehensive, covering medical, hospital services, medications, etc. So if a company offers coverage, they generally have to cover a set list of benefits and meet other rules including the requirement to offer plans at the same monthly premium cost to employees. Delta gets out of this because it is self-insured -- it probably contracts with an outside insurer to manage benefits, but it holds onto the premium monies itself and just pays out claims from those funds. The benefit is that they save some taxes and can keep any excess money that doesn't get paid out with claims, but then they also have to get stop-loss insurance in case of claims in excess of the funds, and do more administrative work on their end. So most companies don't go that route unless they're big companies with the economies of scale to make it make sense.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:21 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

I don't like this move simply because health insurance is a straight up grift and all they did was come up with a new way to take money out of someone's paycheck and put it in their own pockets. They're not going to use this $200x money for anything good. Adults who aren't vaccinated are victims of a bunch of conmen and don't deserve to continue to be stolen from.
posted by bleep at 9:33 AM on August 25, 2021 [11 favorites]

Something on my mind ever since reading the Agamben controversy, but this is such a paradigmatic example of how neoliberal solutions are assumed. People, mainly those aligned with Democrats, having been talking about carrot and stick but that is pure corporate ideology and the fact that Delta Airlines is now doing this as a matter of corporate policy is precisely because corporations and states live and breathe the same neoliberal capitalist logic. Agamben was prescient. Vaccines are great, but the way that actually existing capitalism finds ways to insinuate itself into societal problems as the only option for solving them... is exactly what leftist philosophers predicted would happen.
posted by polymodus at 9:36 AM on August 25, 2021 [17 favorites]

I'm flying Delta to Florida this weekend, combining the best of both worlds. I applaud Delta's decision, but at the same time disgruntled airline employees might be one of the worst kinds.
posted by emelenjr at 9:42 AM on August 25, 2021

What about the multitude of other risky behaviors that directly impact the cost of health insurance? Even going beyond societal ills of smoking, not working out, over eating, etc. with such thinking we're only a very logical leap to also raising premiums on people who snowboard or ride bikes.

Well we already do things like this in America. Among the reasons I wear a helmet while bicycling, number 3 on the list is "it makes my health insurance cheaper". (Number 2 is "it makes my brain safer in a crash" and number 1 is "it gets me past the universal victim-blaming question after a crash so maybe the cops will listen to my side of the story.)

None of this is really ideal but there's always the looming question of how much effort we want to put toward overhauling the system, versus using the system to at least handle this pandemic better or whatever?
posted by traveler_ at 9:46 AM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

I wonder how this works for people who are medically unable to get the jab. Are they on the hook for $2400/year in tests?
posted by Urtylug at 9:48 AM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

But I'm not really happy about fining employees who don't get vaccinated.

Yeah, I'm not going to cheer Delta for taking money out of worker's pockets.
How about:

"Thank you to all of your employees who have been vaccinated. This saves us on healthcare costs and we'd like to put that savings back in your pocket. So a $200/mo pay bump to all our vaccinated employees."

I'd bet it be even more effective in getting people vaccinated too to see their peers getting extra money but I'm not going to hold my breath on this one.
posted by vacapinta at 9:49 AM on August 25, 2021 [40 favorites]

I'm going to make a slippery slope argument: What about the multitude of other risky behaviors that directly impact the cost of health insurance?

Surcharges are not new. There is no slippery slope. If you work in the State of Washington, your paycheck is billed more for health insurance, if you smoke. This has been the case for several years. The state has not collapsed upon itself in applying a myriad of charges for other behaviors.

Delta's surcharge is not groundbreaking, in itself. The notability comes from it being associated with vaccination status, which the right has turned into something controversial, despite most extremists quietly getting shots against polio, pneumonia, TB, etc. — and Covid.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:50 AM on August 25, 2021 [14 favorites]

Thank you to all of your employees who have been vaccinated. This saves us on healthcare costs and we'd like to put that savings back in your pocket. So a $200/mo pay bump to all our vaccinated employees."

data suggests making people lose something is way more successful in encouraging behaviors than having them gain something. I.e. People value losing 200 dollars more than gaining 200 dollars.
posted by JPD at 9:53 AM on August 25, 2021 [21 favorites]

data suggests making people lose something is way more successful in encouraging behaviors than having them gain something. I.e. People value losing 200 dollars more than gaining 200 dollars.

I've read the opposite. That incentives are better for short-term, but not lasting changing. That punitive systems work just as effectively but cause resentment and other negative long-term effects.

None of this touches on the moral aspect of whether it is exploitive or not. Sort of like a company store helps retention rates and keeps costs down but at the expensive of exploiting the workforce.

In any case the executives seem to be using large, incentive based programs to determine their own compensation packages. I don't see them shunning that.
posted by geoff. at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

I wonder how this works for people who are medically unable to get the jab. Are they on the hook for $2400/year in tests?

There are virtually no pre-existing medical conditions that truly preclude people from getting one of the vaccines apart from the condition of being under the age of 12, which would also likely preclude that person from working at Delta.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 10:03 AM on August 25, 2021 [34 favorites]

Despite the worries, this is a good thing, and I hope it will lead to broader mask and vaccine mandates. Carrots are not working, so it is time for the stick. If the federal government can't or won't do these and other necessary things to protect public health, it will be up to the private sector to step in, even if that means surcharges and limiting access to businesses. This has got to be done. Petulant children holding their breath will not make the virus go away or stop ICU beds from filling up. This anti-vax nonsense is killing people. Adults need to be in charge.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:04 AM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

I wonder how this works for people who are medically unable to get the jab. Are they on the hook for $2400/year in tests?

I wonder what percentage of people really are medically unable to get the jab. Is there enough of a statistical sample of them to really show up in the employee rolls at Delta, as opposed to just being an anti-vaxxer talking point?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on August 25, 2021 [5 favorites]

The observation above about cops/dying cops/vaccine mandates is going around a lot of places and is maybe a zeitgeist thing, but I really should mention I saw it via Molly Conger. If you don't follow Molly Conger on Twitter, you really should.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:08 AM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

Is somthing exploitative if its success is predicated on no one paying the fine? Assuming you agree that everyone who physically can gets vaccinated? And that the cost of the vaccination are very close to nil?
posted by JPD at 10:08 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

I'm not against a stick, but the stick should be "if you want to work for us (possibly: and can't WFH), you need to be vaccinated or have a medical exemption". They want the credit for doing something but without actually going forward and doing the thing.
posted by jeather at 10:11 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

> So a $200/mo pay bump to all our vaccinated employees.

This is how most health insurance behavior-modification schemes work. They start off by charging everyone the same amount, but then offer various discounts and incentive programs if you don't smoke (or enroll in a smoking-cessation program), work out regularly, manage various chronic conditions well, etc. etc.

But there's a bevy of evidence showing that these "reward based" schemes are not as effective as "penalty based" schemes, even though to a rational actor they ought to be exactly identical. Giving someone $100, then taking away $20 is a much stronger lesson than giving someone $80.

I'm pretty much on the "stop coddling anti-vaxxers" bandwagon at this point. Let's make being stupid painful again.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:12 AM on August 25, 2021 [17 favorites]

I'm not against a stick, but the stick should be "if you want to work for us (possibly: and can't WFH), you need to be vaccinated or have a medical exemption". They want the credit for doing something but without actually going forward and doing the thing.

That's way more fraught for them. That's not as easy, especially politically.
posted by JPD at 10:12 AM on August 25, 2021

I wonder what percentage of people really are medically unable to get the jab

If someone is allergic to both polyethylene glycol (~0.002% of the population) and polysorbate 80 (not exactly sure of frequency but it seems pretty rare as well), then they wouldn't be eligible for any of the vaccines in the US. There are good odds that not a single person employed at Delta is allergic to both.
posted by jedicus at 10:16 AM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

Good for the mandate, but agreed that added insurance costs for risky behavior (or whatever the lawyers want to call it) is a slippery slope that must have insurance companies drooling right now.

Wife and I are vaccinated and going on our first plane trip/vacation away in early September. I will mask-up and cross my fingers, but at this point? We are willing to take the chance. Traveling to Maine for a five night getaway.

My vaccinated brother got Covid from his retail job and has since recovered. Several co-workers of mine—all vaccinated—have gotten Covid and recovered. I don't want to catch Covid or any other illness, but living in a densely populated area and interacting with the public in my day to day life probably means that I will eventually come down with some variant of Covid. Thankfully we are healthy and relatively fit.

(I agree that not getting the vaccine is both risky and irresponsible behavior, but adding to insurance costs this way is a terrible precedent to make common)
posted by SoberHighland at 10:19 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

I think what police unions are really opposed to is the idea that anyone has any real control over their actions. If and when this issue goes from push to shove, it may prove to be an unpleasantly interesting demonstration of who really holds the power in any given municipality (hint: it's the organization that politicians have funneled billions of dollars' worth of military-grade weaponry to over the past few decades).

This. If fascism does overthrow America it's going to be cops not the military acting as kingmakers.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:21 AM on August 25, 2021 [5 favorites]

Delta is trying to solve for the fact it has a large proportion of its employees located in a state with a statehouse very unlikely to be OK with employers mandating vaccination. And they get an offensive amount of subsidies from the state they don't want to threaten.

Good for the mandate, but agreed that added insurance costs for risky behavior (or whatever the lawyers want to call it) is a slippery slope that must have insurance companies drooling right now.

Companies can already do this. There isn't a slippery slope. Just people hate it and they don't actually improve the medical losses relative to premiums collected very much.

The company that owns Scott's Miracle Gro has been doing it for years. I bet the Randian freak shows at BB&T/Truist have been doing it as well.
posted by JPD at 10:22 AM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

Companies should recognize that the people who won't get vaccinated are generally toxic assholes and that firing them will be a huge positive for the business.
posted by interogative mood at 10:22 AM on August 25, 2021 [35 favorites]

Ok, but they're not doing any kind of real vaccine mandate -- at the very (very very) least they could announce that the 200/employee/month is going to [some appropriate charity], as opposed to just extra cash flow for them. This is why I'm not really into giving them a lot of credit.
posted by jeather at 10:24 AM on August 25, 2021

I am aware of higher insurance costs for smokers. But isn't it completely easy to simply claim you do not smoke? If I get vaccinated, I get a card with proof that I have done so. If I smoke? I can simply claim I do not smoke. There's no way of proving that someone is a smoker... is there?
posted by SoberHighland at 10:25 AM on August 25, 2021

Companies should recognize that the people who won't get vaccinated are generally toxic assholes and that firing them will be a huge positive for the business.

This is one of the rare cases where at-will employment serves the public good.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:25 AM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

There's no way of proving that someone is a smoker... is there?

Other than the very obvious habit of going outside occasionally to grab a smoke? And the odor? No, not really.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:30 AM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

In theory you could prove insurance fraud with smoking as there'd be a lot of witnesses, credit card charges and other things that would be hard evidence in a trial. I doubt an insurance company wants to be in a courtroom with an elderly, ill person hooked up to an oxygen tank arguing they shouldn't have to payout insurance.
posted by geoff. at 10:32 AM on August 25, 2021

This is good.
posted by hijinx at 10:33 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

I think this is bad. So in the US, the ACA let states (some do, some don't) to allow surcharges for smokers. It's bad. I work in an industry where we help provide a "reasonable alternative" to the surcharge but I'm still against it and I try to focus on the other good work we do against smoking.

But since I believe in universal health insurance that is just *there* for everyone, surcharges for not doing X or being Y or doing Z are bad policy and wrong, even if a lot of of the public health community is worried about bad incentives.

If Delta, the airline, cares about all their workers get vaccinated just require that and if someone doesn't do it, then they get fired (allowing for reasonable accommodations for someone who is medically unable to get safely vaccinated). (I know that without universal health insurance that is a higher cost than $200/month, but it will probably end up with more people vaccinated and it's morally better.)
posted by skynxnex at 10:37 AM on August 25, 2021 [9 favorites]

There are blood, saliva and hair tests (according to google anyway) that test for the metabolites of nicotine. So yeah, they could randomly test the non-smoking people to make sure they're not smoking.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:38 AM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

Unlike typical smoking surcharges, this has little to do with the actual cost risk to the health plan. Gross.
posted by michaelh at 10:39 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

Unlike typical smoking surcharges, this has little to do with the actual cost risk to the health plan. Gross.

I'm failing to find a link but Delta's health insurance claimed an average of $40K for an unvaccinated COVID hospital stay so I'd group this surcharge with the tobacco surcharges. You've made a choice that could end up being expensive for insurance, so we're charging those of you who made that choice something extra.

Then again, there are studies that show that tobacco smokers can cost the health care system less over a lifetime, just because the tobacco people on average check out a few years before non-tobacco users.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:45 AM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

I haven’t looked at actual tobacco costs to plans in years; would be interesting if they’ve become cheaper customers, but I doubt that. Their more prevalent end-of-life diseases are expensive.

To figure out the appropriate additional premium you need the rate of hospital stays out of the whole population and the negotiated amount the insurer pays (not $40k.) There are some additional factors, but that’s the ballpark.
posted by michaelh at 10:50 AM on August 25, 2021

Unlike typical smoking surcharges, this has little to do with the actual cost risk to the health plan.

All of those people need a weekly COVID test, which, if administered by Delta (as it seems to be), is a real, direct cost to the company.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 10:54 AM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

I posted this in another Covid-related thread but I think it also belongs here:

My husband works in FDA compliance for a Large American Pharmaceutical Company (in a red state that hasn't done a great job with mandates), which just introduced a vaccine mandate. As in: get vaccinated or find another job (unless you can't do so medically or due to legitimate religious reasons). There was a series of question and answer video meetings about the new mandate, with the legal department saying, "Yep, we can legally do this and we are going to do it," at each one.

People are quitting. People are PISSED. Not everyone, obviously. But COME ON. You work for a pharmaceutical company. YOUR WORK MAKES MEDICINES AND BELIEVES IN SCIENCE. How is this vaccine mandate a surprise to any of you?

The higher-ups? They don't freaking care if you quit. Bye! They'll just hire people who are vaccinated. Easy-peasy!

Let's just keep racking up the numbers of businesses and schools that require the vaccine. The more, the better.
posted by cooker girl at 10:54 AM on August 25, 2021 [53 favorites]

Here's one of the "healthy people live longer so cost more" studies. There may be newer studies that contradict this but this is the one I was thinking of.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:58 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

But since I believe in universal health insurance that is just *there* for everyone, surcharges for not doing X or being Y or doing Z are bad policy and wrong

I would argue you've identified a selling point for universal health insurance; fewer "incentive" programs, simpler coverage.

Not that it matters, of course.
posted by aramaic at 11:02 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

All of those people need a weekly COVID test, which, if administered by Delta (as it seems to be), is a real, direct cost to the company.

True. It would cost about $30/mo to do weekly antigen tests at retail prices. Perhaps Delta is having to pay several times more than that.

ensign_ricky, interesting. The problem for smokers is they do their expensive end of life expenses early. I also assume you’d not want to end up arguing that unvaccinated save their insurance plans money by dying earlier and more cheaply.

That’s all from me. Appreciate the points made.
posted by michaelh at 11:04 AM on August 25, 2021

True. It would cost about $30/mo to do weekly antigen tests at retail prices. Perhaps Delta is having to pay several times more than that.

Side rant: Why the hell is antigen testing still $7.50 a hit? We're 15 months into this shit. Antigen testing should be sent out to every home on a weekly basis. You should be able to buy it in 120 packs from the grocery store for $10. It should be available at every street corner. It should be included in specially market boxes of breakfast cereal.

This shit is a swab, a piece of paper in a plastic clip, and a few drops of antibody solution. How are we not manufacturing them in the squillions and just getting them into people's hands?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:09 AM on August 25, 2021 [39 favorites]

Example: The Toronto Police Association has just announced it's opposing the mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations announced today.

I think it's important not to confuse police unions and unions.
posted by klanawa at 11:12 AM on August 25, 2021 [63 favorites]

Here's one of the "healthy people live longer so cost more" studies. There may be newer studies that contradict this but this is the one I was thinking of.

That study says that it didn't compute the indirect costs of negative heath outcomes [lower productivity, sick days covering, non-GDP counting health aides [like for example a wife taking care of a sick husband], and smokers setting fires [5% of fires in the US, 10% of injuries, 25% of deaths, 7% of costs], which it says could be higher than direct medical costs.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:14 AM on August 25, 2021

I also assume you’d not want to end up arguing that unvaccinated save their insurance plans money by dying earlier and more cheaply.


You bring up a good point. Your statement is probably true but not an argument that I care to pursue. I'm not really pro-tobacco, pro-obesity or pro-antivax. Just thought it was an interesting example of conventional wisdom (maybe) being incorrect.

Since it was a Dutch study, one has to wonder how differently those numbers come out in other countries, especially the US. Healthy may be more expensive in the Netherlands but less expensive elsewhere.
posted by ensign_ricky at 11:15 AM on August 25, 2021

Unlike typical smoking surcharges, this has little to do with the actual cost risk to the health plan. Gross.

Higher indirect costs for businesses caused by high-risk anti-vax/anti-mask behavior, such as increased liability, unemployment, and disability insurance premiums, may well result in reduced revenue that causes the knock-on effect of higher healthcare insurance premiums for employees.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:16 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

dying earlier and more cheaply.

This isn't "insurers promote vasectomies because they're cheaper than kids" calculus. Spending a month in the ICU is not anything I would ever consider "cheap". That's like a million bucks in most hospitals. A million bucks and a good chance of the person dying anyway.

Like if insurance had to spend $50/mo for the next sixty years on medication along with doctor visits and a few overnight stays in a hospital for an acute condition that needs to be remedied surgically that's only a couple of nights in an ICU.

Dying slowly surrounded by very expensive professionals and equipment is literally the most expensive way to die that's possible and it's more expensive than alternatives like hospice by an order of magnitude. Having to use ICU for an extended period of time offsets centuries of typical healthcare amortization.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:17 AM on August 25, 2021 [5 favorites]

at the very (very very) least they could announce that the 200/employee/month is going to [some appropriate charity], as opposed to just extra cash flow for them. This is why I'm not really into giving them a lot of credit.

Yes, the $200 is a stick to get people vaccinated. But it's an also attempt to defray costs when avoidable cases of a preventable disease threaten to blow up the company health plan for everyone else.

Companies use good, affordable health care as a recruiting tool. They don't want three out of four people to see their premiums double next year because of the other quarter that stubbornly refuse a free shot. And, this is grim and cold, but there is also the very practical concern of business continuity. They don't want one in four employees at risk of becoming seriously ill and affecting productivity... or dying and needing to be replaced.

Companies don't want premiums skyrocketing or employees getting sick or dying. You don't even have to believe in their kind hearts for that, there are purely self-serving reasons this is the case.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:18 AM on August 25, 2021 [12 favorites]

Some data points of interest directly from Delta's memo on the subject:
- 75% of Delta's employees are vaccinated
- The average hospital stay for COVID-19 has cost Delta $50,000 per person.
posted by msbutah at 11:22 AM on August 25, 2021 [15 favorites]

If someone is allergic to both polyethylene glycol (~0.002% of the population) and polysorbate 80 (not exactly sure of frequency but it seems pretty rare as well), then they wouldn't be eligible for any of the vaccines in the US. There are good odds that not a single person employed at Delta is allergic to both.

There are other medical reasons someone might be unable to safely get vaccinated; people on immunosuppressants and/or with autoimmune disorders may have bad interactions from anything that provokes their immune system as strongly as the vaccines do. They're also at higher risk of COVID complications, of course, so I don't know how many would still be working for an airline this deep into the pandemic, but I wouldn't take the bet that it's zero.
posted by mstokes650 at 11:22 AM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

In an all hands call yesterday, the CFO of the company I work at (which isn't Delta, but is very large) said that if we can't get more people vaccinated, and if the Delta variant gets much worse, the trajectory is that our health care plan is going to be far more expensive in 2022.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:24 AM on August 25, 2021 [12 favorites]

Higher indirect costs for businesses caused by high-risk anti-vax/anti-mask behavior, such as increased liability, unemployment, and disability insurance premiums, may well result in reduced revenue that causes the knock-on effect of higher healthcare insurance premiums for employees.

And that's aside from the hit the company takes from infected staff making other staff infected, causing scheduling and operational issues, as well as the reputational hit to staff making passengers sick.

You can't easily run an airline without full crews, and having to ground planes for disinfection or lack of staff is lost revenue. Outside of running the airline, no one wants to fly an airline with a reputation for disregarding the safety of those on-board. Not being serious about safety is a surefire way to lose money, when the larger business is already hard-hit by the pandemic and associated travel restrictions.

Doing nothing will end up costing more, and some of those costs will invariably come out of the employee's paycheck, one way or another.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:24 AM on August 25, 2021 [9 favorites]

Other than the very obvious habit of going outside occasionally to grab a smoke? And the odor? No, not really.

There are blood, saliva and hair tests (according to google anyway) that test for the metabolites of nicotine. So yeah, they could randomly test the non-smoking people to make sure they're not smoking.

OK, I get that there ARE ways to prove someone is a smoker. But do any companies officially check on this stuff in practice? An employee can simply claim they do not smoke on their insurance paperwork. Is there any company where co-workers "out" smokers to HR? Are there any companies that cross-check behavior and smells with what someone claimed on an insurance form? Or have there been any cases where insurance companies have somehow found proof of smoking and come after people for back payment on premiums? Do any companies do random tests for evidence of smoking?

I'm genuinely curious.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:28 AM on August 25, 2021

Tthere are other medical reasons someone might be unable to safely get vaccinated; people on immunosuppressants and/or with autoimmune disorders may have bad interactions from anything that provokes their immune system as strongly as the vaccines do.

With the caveat that there have been limited, formal safety studies of some of these, the CDC says:

People with HIV and those with weakened immune systems due to other illnesses or medication might be at increased risk for severe COVID-19. They may receive a COVID-19 vaccine.

People with autoimmune conditions may receive a COVID-19 vaccine.

People who have previously had GBS may receive a COVID-19 vaccine.

People who have previously had Bell’s palsy may receive a COVID-19 vaccine.

In the case of one person I know with a severe autoimmune condition: she had the mildest side-effects of anyone I know (though still present) and has received a booster shot on the advice of the physician who managers her immune medication.

Is it possible that there are people with such conditions who are medically advised not to get vaccinated? Sure, I guess. But unlike PEG and polysorbate 80 allergies, there is no specific contraindication for it and any medical exemption on that basis will also likely be rare. If anything the public health advice in the US cuts the other way, with the severely immune-suppressed being first in line for booster shots.
posted by jedicus at 11:32 AM on August 25, 2021 [14 favorites]

Among the reasons I wear a helmet while bicycling, number 3 on the list is "it makes my health insurance cheaper"

This seems like a derail so I may take it to the green, but although I have been asked about smoking or cigarettes on insurance applications (and it's never clear, but the assumption is it's only tobacco) seems like it's the honor system, never heard of any verification. But I've never encountered anything about cycling or wearing a helmet. What insurance program makes it cheaper, traveler_? Or are you just not covered if you're injured in an accident, without a helmet? Because you promised to always wear one?

This may be quite region-specific. I've heard for example all riders must wear a helmet in Seattle; but the usual rule (like here in California) is helmets are only required if you're under 16 years old.
posted by Rash at 11:33 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

Excellent post and super excellent comments/discussion. I *really* like the idea of making vaccination required for air travelers (link to NPR interview above) as well as employees. My sense is that employers are looking at the cost of hospitalization due to covid and vaccination is one of the things that minimizes the likelihood of severe illness. This might be a good stick that would move the anti-vaxxers to get vaccinated.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:35 AM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

>> Example: The Toronto Police Association has just announced it's opposing the mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations announced today.

> I think it's important not to confuse police unions and unions.

Don't kid yourself that police unions are outliers on this. The American Federation of Government Employees, Service Employees International Union, American Postal Workers Union, and others have all come out with objections to vaccine mandates. The National Education Association only started supporting vaccine mandates last week, and the American Federation of Teachers still doesn't. And then things get even more muddled on a local level. My local teachers union, for example, has blocked the schools from even asking teachers if they are vaccinated.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 11:38 AM on August 25, 2021 [9 favorites]

People shaking their fists at school board meetings and calling the vaccine "gene therapy" are about to get ran the fuck over by big business crunching the numbers on spreadsheets. It won't make me hate big business any less, but I will still love to see it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:41 AM on August 25, 2021 [35 favorites]

I *really* like the idea of making vaccination required for air travelers (link to NPR interview above) as well as employees.

Me, too. I'd also like to see similar interior spaces (like restaurants) get mandates as well, though that seems unlikely here at least so far.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:44 AM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

I'm a member of a Canadian public sector union which has stated that it is "reviewing" the city vaccination mandate policy; it would appall but not shock me if they decide to oppose it, because a non-zero percentage of our membership is comprised of anti-vaxxers, most if not all of whom have been rewarded with assignments "working" from home since March of last year.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2021

OK, I get that there ARE ways to prove someone is a smoker. But do any companies officially check on this stuff in practice?

My company checks this every two years. You have to hold an absorbent stick between your teeth against your tongue for a couple minutes, and then a line appears like a pregnancy test to indicate detection of nicotine.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 11:53 AM on August 25, 2021 [10 favorites]

on the off-chance that vaccines aren't the be all and end all of this pandemic, should we not still retain some semblance of civility and courtesy for dissenting opinions, not to mention perhaps a modicum of respect for individual thought and bodily autonomy?

Well, I mean, if I understand correctly, the longest known delay between administering any vaccine (for anything, ever) and side effects showing up subsequently is about six weeks. Several billion people have taken this vaccine more than six weeks ago and the only truly serious side effects documented are about 30 cases of thrombosis (one fatal) among the five million people who took the AstraZeneca vaccine, which isn't even administered in the US.

Around 200 people a day are dying from coronavirus in the US per day, and that figure is accelerating.

Is there a number of people larger than 5 billion people vaccinated are holding out for? Or a period of time longer than four times the needed period to gauge for side effects they're waiting on?

Because I'm not seeing an end point for some folks. And we really need them to get out of the way so the dying can stop.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:58 AM on August 25, 2021 [36 favorites]

Reading some of the comments in this thread makes it clear just how badly the Trump years have divided American society, with self-proclaimed liberals not just displaying zero tolerance for any thought process that runs contrary to the presiding narrative, but openly spewing vitriol and rancor on anyone who comes to a different conclusion.

I get it, folks are desperate to get "back to normal" and we've been promised that Big Pharma will get us there. But on the off-chance that vaccines aren't the be all and end all of this pandemic, should we not still retain some semblance of civility and courtesy for dissenting opinions, not to mention perhaps a modicum of respect for individual thought and bodily autonomy?

In case you haven't noticed, both sides want to get "back to normal", it's just that one side wants pretend that nothing's wrong, damn how many lives will be lost and ruined to get there. If the people who supposedly govern can put it all this mass death and disability on the shoulders of "personal responsibility" they feel like they can skate their own responsibility.

You know what? We're tired. We have feelings too. We supposedly have to coddle people who scream "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!" and then are surprised Pikachu face when COVID hands them death? Why? So they can spite us? Because they don't like to do what they've been told? Because society has been changing around them to the point where they don't feel like the unquestioned hegemonic masters of that society anymore? Because let's face it, that's what it really is.

No. I'm over it. Tolerance is a peace treaty, not a suicide pact. If they want to suicide bomb our society by spreading disease then fuck it, no, they don't get tolerance. They don't get respect. They don't get patience. They get rejected from our society because ostracism, when it comes down to it, is still an effective tool for people who just won't quit being anti-social.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:59 AM on August 25, 2021 [114 favorites]

And if anyone wants to argue with me about this, let me know where you are. I'll be happy to come to you (fully vaccinated and masked) hang out with you and your social group and start poking everyone in the side of the ribs continually. You can request that I stop, you can request that I leave you alone, you can try to leave the area. I will follow you and poke you in the ribs continually.

And you have to tolerate me. And show me patience. And try to explain to me the error of my ways. But I won't stop. Because you have to tolerate me. Because if you don't you're a fucking hypocrite. And I'm really just going to be doing it out of spite.

But you won't. You'll do everything you can to make sure I'm not near you. Because nobody likes someone being around them being an anti-social dick. And that was just some dickhead poking you in the ribs.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:05 PM on August 25, 2021 [33 favorites]

It's more like, self-proclaimed liberals not just displaying zero tolerance for any thought process that runs contrary to acknowledging the millions of dying people right in front of their goddamn noses, but openly spewing vitriol and rancor on anyone who actively chooses to live in a weird fog of paranoid conspiracy delusion instead of doing literally the simplest fucking goddamn thing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:07 PM on August 25, 2021 [38 favorites]

Several billion people have taken this vaccine more than six weeks ago

About 2 billion people as of 6 weeks ago, to be exact, but your point stands.

Around 200 people a day are dying from coronavirus in the US per day, and that figure is accelerating.

Sadly it's currently about 1,100 per day in the US. It hasn't been below ~217 per day in the US since March 2020.
posted by jedicus at 12:08 PM on August 25, 2021 [12 favorites]

Hundreds of thousands of people are dying that didn't have to die and even more will die because of those people with "differing opinions". But still people want to say "oh the libs aren't so tolerant now? Just because hundreds of thousands of people are dying? Pfft whatever happened to decorum!"

The first trials started over a year ago.

We already know that long covid is bad. What if we dilly dally to try and reasonably debate and convince and persuade and even more people die or have lifelong health conditions because of people obsessed with dying to own the libs.

So much for the tolerant left!
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:08 PM on August 25, 2021 [15 favorites]

should we not still retain some semblance of civility and courtesy for dissenting opinions, not to mention perhaps a modicum of respect for individual thought and bodily autonomy?

Nope, not when there's a pandemic going on! If you want to opt out of society and not get the vaccine, sure, you can. But don't expect anyone to be sympathetic to you. Not when everyone's lives are greatly impacted in very negative ways.
posted by Kitteh at 12:09 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

I look at this every day.

But yeah, go ahead and say that number of deaths and how we should be reacting to it is a matter of opinion, one we should respect at all costs, no matter what that opinion is.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:10 PM on August 25, 2021 [10 favorites]

Okay, last comment for me, as I'm getting up on the Overly Noisy threshold here.

But I have a useful exercise, for me personally at least, for when I am trying to balance empathy with drawing a line in the sand against destructive bullshit. It's what I call my "What else?" test. The people making dissenting opinions on a given issue rarely only talk about one thing. So what else do they talk about? How do I feel about those ideas in terms of morality/logic?

And without putting words into anyone else's mouth, I am going to suggest to you that if you run the "What else?" test on the crowd refusing the coronavirus vaccines, you're gonna feel pretty comfortable being dismissive of them. There are several different schools of thought coming in hot as anti-vax, but I'm quite sure you're gonna feel pretty secure about telling each of them to get the fuck out of here with their bullshit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:10 PM on August 25, 2021 [13 favorites]

If anti-vaxers don't like their lives being decided by big business, they should push for universal healthcare.
posted by meowzilla at 12:11 PM on August 25, 2021 [15 favorites]

I'm interested in this "so-called breakthrough infections among the vaccinated" phrasing, right after a post about Israel seeing a surge in post-vax COVID infection rates.
posted by XtinaS at 12:11 PM on August 25, 2021

Around 200 people a day are dying from coronavirus in the US per day

Florida alone is more than 200/day right now.
posted by archimago at 12:13 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

There's that saying about how I should respect your right to freely swing your fist -- right until the point where it hits my face.

When, say, people choose to get homeopathic treatment for their cancer instead of chemo -- I can't say I respect the decision, but I respect their right to make it. It's a choice that primarily affects them, though it would be nice for them to consider how their loved ones feel about it. When Steve Jobs made this choice I and many people thought he was a fool, but I doubt many people felt furious about it.

But when somebody's autonomous thought process consciously ignores a decision's effect on me, then I think I have the right to get angry about it, and that expecting me not to is a step too far. Make your choices, but accept responsibility for the damage they create. That includes letting the victims of your choices have feelings about them.

There have been at least 4.4 million confirmed deaths so far from this thing. Not to mention unrecorded deaths, damaged health, severely restricted lives, indirect deaths (from economic fallout/hunger and lack of medical care), mental illness, and much more. Every single one of us is dealing with this. Every single one of us is now seeing even the light at the end of the tunnel moved far away and possibly extinguished, not because beating this thing is impossible, but because people's refusal to take seriously the direct costs of their choices on 8 billion others makes it impossible. Please don't compare this to outrages du jour worked up by Trump et al.
posted by trig at 12:15 PM on August 25, 2021 [31 favorites]

I honestly meant to type ~1200 per day, but am positively lousy with typos and proofreading. jedicus is right on my vaccinated figure, though. I mistakenly quoted doses rather than people.

So for anyone whose "I'll believe it when I see it" figure is larger than 2 billion, but smaller than 5 billion...
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:15 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

And you know I'm also exhausted of hearing the elaborate psychological theories about the fears and fragilities that cause folks to retreat into that paranoid conspiracy fog. You got fears and anxieties about control and death and your place in society, you can do what everyone goddamned else did last year and get a fucking Zoom therapist to hash it out on your own motherfucking time. After you get a goddamned vaccination.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:15 PM on August 25, 2021 [14 favorites]

I look at this every day.

You know what I look at?

Florida's death rate chart.

We have a widely and freely available vaccine which almost universally stops death from COVID and more people in Florida are dying per day than when we didn't.

I feel like I'm Mugatu with the whole "Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills?"
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:16 PM on August 25, 2021 [11 favorites]

Companies should recognize that the people who won't get vaccinated are generally toxic assholes and that firing them will be a huge positive for the business.

I'm on team "everyone needs to get vaccinated" but this kind of mindset doesn't help anything.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:16 PM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

As I'm sure others above have already said, I don't like this approach because it is too easily applied to other situations and conditions. Just mandate the vaccine for your employees and pressure the feds to mandate the vaccine for travelers. Requiring the shot for air travel would hit the more obnoxious and entitled slice of vaccine refusers hard.

right after a post about Israel seeing a surge in post-vax COVID infection rates.

Please look at the comments on that post to see how that header might have been (unintentionally) misleading.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 PM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

I'm on team "everyone needs to get vaccinated" but this kind of mindset doesn't help anything.

Yeah it does. Employees with abusive supervisors quit at higher rates and cause increased turnover. Employees trapped with them perform less work, are less productive, have less satisfaction in life, have more trouble concentrating at work, and have more physical and mental health problems.

Firing assholes is absolutely something that every workplace should strive to achieve if only because a better work environment is a happier and more productive one. It's literally a way to improve workplace productivity that also saves money!
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:22 PM on August 25, 2021 [13 favorites]

To steal from one of my favorite demotivators: "Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all of the unhappy people."
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:25 PM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

in re the JHU chart and Florida death chart, is there a similar updating map anywhere of the vaccinated, preferably on a global scale? just so I can look at it and maybe calm down?
posted by chavenet at 12:27 PM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

on the off-chance that vaccines aren't the be all and end all of this pandemic, should we not still retain some semblance of civility and courtesy for dissenting opinions

I have civility and courtesy for the people who haven't gotten the vaccine because their communities have historically been terribly mistreated by the medical establishment, people who have little margin in their lives for the costs and inconveniences associated with taking off work and traveling to a vaccination site, vulnerable people who (mistakenly, in this case, but not in many others) believe that any encounter with any quasi-government program may lead to their persecution.

The rest can go stuff their "I will not do a single damn thing that might benefit a fellow human being I don't consider worthy of respect by society" attitudes up their noses.
posted by praemunire at 12:28 PM on August 25, 2021 [20 favorites]

Firing assholes is absolutely something that every workplace should strive to achieve

I'm a leader, and I preach that daily. I'm also an advocate for everyone being vaccinated. But I recognize that there are people who haven't gotten the vaccine who aren't doing it because they're anti-vaxx, or because they're an asshole, but because they have a legitimate concern that can be address through compassion and education. Looping them in to the same group as protesting anti-vaxxers doesn't help, it hurts.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:31 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

Revoke my official liberal membership card if you must, but I really do believe employers have a right to make rules restricting their employees' ability to endanger customers and other employees, to say nothing of endangering the health of the company.

Leave aside the sad truth that as long as health insurance is tied to employment in this twisted country, smart employers will make calculations about what to cover, and puritanical employers will make stupid ones. (If a Hobby Lobby clerk deliberately doesn't ovulate this month, those pills are a lot cheaper than her pre- and perinatal care would be.) Even non-benefited workers have limits on their bodily autonomy. Some make little sense and waste time/money -- piss-testing call center reps in case they got high weeks ago, for instance. Others make perfectly good sense: if you have norovirus, you need to find coverage for your next several shifts at the daycare. They're not even paying out sick leave or medical coverage.

The airline industry has a completely different risk profile. Flight crew are already subject to numerous policies and regulations because their decisions could result in death or permanent disability for everyone on board. The pilot's physical health is already under immense scrutiny, and rightly so. She doesn't just get to decide she'll report those fainting spells sometime later. He doesn't get to decide he looks prettier without his glasses today. The whole in-flight and ground crew is on the hook for ensuring that you, the passenger, are not maimed or killed in the course of your travels.

Meanwhile, name an essential industry that's been through as many catastrophic existential threats in the last two decades.

"Get protected against a deadly, highly-communicable disease, unless your doctor tells us in writing that you can't" is simply another layer of trying not to kill their passengers, their workforce, and their industry. People who dislike following safety rules should probably seek a career in another sector.
posted by armeowda at 12:32 PM on August 25, 2021 [20 favorites]

Firing assholes is absolutely something that every workplace should strive to achieve if only because a better work environment is a happier and more productive one. It's literally a way to improve workplace productivity that also saves money!

Yeah, these are great big statements. And if you're a soulless corporation, pharmacare, or the University Health Network in Toronto, all power to you and I support you. But this "fire everyone" thing doesn't really work in my business.

We have about 40 staff, about 3 are unvaxxed. With fitness instructors, first, it takes a long time in our martial art to train them - 7 years to black belt, 3-4 years before they're a really great instructor. Students come to train because they like their instructor. We've already lost around 50% of our clientele. Getting rid of their fav instructor is not going to happen.

Also, fitness as an industry is full of woo and err, self-determination. 2 of the unvaxxed staff are from populations that are marginalized, as are about 35% of our staff. It's taken months of hard work - education, talks, walking the line between pressure and inappropriate pressure, and time off to get shots - to get to where we are. We're not just going to "fire the assholes." I should note that our clientele is largely pro-vax, but a significant chunk are extremely eye-rolly about it and would probably eat us for lunch if we were choosing to fire people over vax status.

We are however rapid testing M W F, if you're not vaxxed and I'm curious how that changes the profile.

What would help us? Legislation. Every time we've had to shut down, we've lost people but others have said hey, not your fault. The one time we shut down voluntarily (March Break camp 2020 as it happens - we called it 48 hours before the government or something like that) we've been trashed on Facebook etc.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2021 [10 favorites]

Air Canada is following suite: all employees must be vaccinated by October 30 or face termination/unpaid leave.

Considerably harsher consequences than a $200 a month insurance surcharge.
posted by jordantwodelta at 12:49 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

Air Canada is a federally regulated employer in Canada, so they don't have a choice.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:54 PM on August 25, 2021 [5 favorites]

Healthcare has its own contingent of anti-vax troublemakers, not least among nurses. Let's not start putting down certain careers just to elevate others, here.

To warriorqueen's point about legislation -- yes. Every "controversial" preventive measure a corporation has taken since the start of this pandemic, you can generally trace back to a government that didn't want to govern. As a friend of mine put it, too many lawmakers want to be the "cool parent" to the grown-ass crybabies who elected them. So now, paradoxically, it falls on private industry to try to make and enforce rules.
posted by armeowda at 12:55 PM on August 25, 2021 [9 favorites]

My employer is a healthcare organization, and as such is bound by our state's vaccination mandate, recently issued by the Governor. We are required to demonstrate proof of vaccination to HR — both doses — by October 18. Exemptions are allowed for legitimate medical or religious reasons.

Seems like these mandates are going to come from the public or private sector, either way, with or without surcharges or whatever else. There will be less room for the anti-mask/anti-vax extremists to keep reinfecting everyone, thankfully.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:58 PM on August 25, 2021

But I recognize that there are people who haven't gotten the vaccine who aren't doing it because they're anti-vaxx, or because they're an asshole, but because they have a legitimate concern that can be address through compassion and education.

20 months into the pandemic and more than 12 months after trials and 8 months after vaccines have become available and administered to BILLIONS of people worldwide, there is no goddamn daylight between an asshole anti-vaxxer and someone who has "a legitimate concern."
posted by tclark at 1:00 PM on August 25, 2021 [27 favorites]

Is it possible that there are people with such conditions who are medically advised not to get vaccinated? Sure, I guess.

It's so kind of you to begrudingly "guess" that I might not just be completely talking out my ass. I have two family members with (different) immune system disorders; one got the vaccine and was fine (and already got a booster shot I believe), and the other was advised, by her doctor, that getting vaccinated might very well kill or permanently cripple her (by triggering another bout of vasculitis like the one that landed her in the ICU and nearly killed her a few years ago, which she still has significant circulation damage from), but COVID would also probably kill her (same reason), so he couldn't make a definitive recommendation one way or the other; they agreed her safest option was to just be extremely cautious and extremely socially-distant. Which she has been. She'd love to get vaccinated if the risk to her health wasn't so high. She exists.

But I've spent months now hearing from people with medical degrees from 15-Minutes-On-Google University that people like her don't exist, and I'm just fucking tired of it. The assumption that everyone who wants to get vaccinated can definitely get vaccinated is just an insidious form of ableism as far as I can tell. I'd love to see everyone get vaccinated who can safely get vaccinated. I'd love to see this pandemic ended as quickly as possible. I'd want those things anyways, but the fact that my family member who can't get vaccinated is at constant risk and can't do anything about it is not a non-factor in how badly I want those things. Where I get off the vaccinate-everyone-bus is when it starts heading down the road of "any penalty or indignity you hit the unvaccinated with is A-OK because they should all just get vaccinated anyways". It's thoughtless and gross and shitty, and like most other awful, pro-authoritarian takes, it involves flattening a diverse group of people into a single faceless mass that is then labeled "enemy". And I wish I didn't have to personally know someone who medically can't get vaccinated to be able to make that point.
posted by mstokes650 at 1:02 PM on August 25, 2021 [38 favorites]

"Oh, no, this is my first shot. I just wasn't comfortable before, you know?" -- person making small talk last week in the parking-lot vaccination tent, surrounded by moderately to severely immunocompromised people receiving third vaccine doses.

I've just been uncomfortable this entire time, you know?
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:07 PM on August 25, 2021 [13 favorites]

The right has so fully discredited government (by intentionally doing a shitty job of governing) that we have to rely on corporations to tell us what to do -- which is pretty much exactly what the right wants anyway -- because we can't fucking get it together to govern ourselves responsibly. Depressing.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:07 PM on August 25, 2021 [14 favorites]

20 months into the pandemic and more than 12 months after trials and 8 months after vaccines have become available and administered to BILLIONS of people worldwide, there is no goddamn daylight between an asshole anti-vaxxer and someone who has "a legitimate concern."

60+ year old employee. Taking all precautions and pushing others to do the same. Long history of getting flu vaccine every year. But, in 2019, got guillain-barré syndrome after their vaccine, and took half a year to recover. Doctor says no higher risk for getting it again as a result of the covid vaccine, but the individual is terrified about it and whether they could recover from it again at their age.

This isn't a hypothetical example. They're not also an asshole anti-vaxxer. These are the situations real leaders have to deal with every single day, and why blanket statements about people's motivations are just stupid.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 1:08 PM on August 25, 2021 [18 favorites]

Patience and attempts to educate people who don't want to learn are very 2020, and resulted in people killing the guards at the Senate and invading.

Enough is enough.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:11 PM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

Actual side question: Are there any vaccine mandates/penalties which don't contain medical exemption clauses?
posted by aramaic at 1:12 PM on August 25, 2021 [6 favorites]

I also assume you’d not want to end up arguing that unvaccinated save their insurance plans money by dying earlier and more cheaply.

Covid doesn't kill most people who get it, but the long term health costs are likely to be high for severe cases. So no, incubators are going to be a drain on all of our insurance plans for a long time to come.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:17 PM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

Exemptions are allowed for legitimate medical or religious reasons.

What are legitimate religious reasons to not get the vaccine?
posted by bitteschoen at 1:22 PM on August 25, 2021 [9 favorites]

What are legitimate religious reasons to not get the vaccine?

Heartfelt worship of Nurgle.
posted by Drastic at 1:24 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

What are legitimate religious reasons to not get the vaccine?

I wondered that too. I found this guide.
posted by FencingGal at 1:28 PM on August 25, 2021 [5 favorites]

What are legitimate religious reasons to not get the vaccine?

A signed note from God.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:30 PM on August 25, 2021 [17 favorites]

Adults who aren't vaccinated are victims of a bunch of conmen and don't deserve to continue to be stolen from.

No, but I also dont deserve to be exposed to a deadly virus because they believe in lies. If this is the only way to get them to comply, so be it. They've had enough time, evidence, and encouragement from their chosen political leaders to get vaccinated.

Their freedom stops when it affects others. If they believe drunk driving is a god given right because Jesus turned water into wine, they are still at risk of killing people doing so and will get arrested if caught driving drunk. There is no religious exception to not smoking in bars. Can we please stop pandering to people who put others in danger?
posted by ananci at 1:34 PM on August 25, 2021 [15 favorites]

You said you have 3 people electively unvaxxed. They're so vital to the optimal operation of the business that they just can't be lost. So they skate by. A few here, a few there. "No I can't afford to go without 7.5% of my employees".

By the same token, if the healthcare industry could boast a ~92.5% vaccination rate like wq's fitness studio, we'd be sitting pretty right now. To say nothing of other essential workers (older data, but there were many miles to go).
posted by armeowda at 1:36 PM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

Patience and attempts to educate people who don't want to learn are very 2020, and resulted in people killing the guards at the Senate and invading.

No. Could y'all please just stop this screaming that everyone who hasn't been vaccinated is an ignorant, terrible, evil person? Really. There are myriad comments upthread that 1) excoriate the willfully misinformed anti-vaxxers AND 2) list legitimate groups of people who haven't gotten vaccinated yet and might not ever. These smug, totalizing comments are really offensive.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:42 PM on August 25, 2021 [16 favorites]

What are legitimate religious reasons to not get the vaccine?

I don't know. I'm not thrilled by this invasion of religious extremism into public health policy, especially since it puts my health at risk, and the health of those I love, but religious extremists currently have a lot of sway over our democracy, I guess.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:49 PM on August 25, 2021

20 year lurk: "on preview: chavenet, covidactnow.org, source of the florida death chart, covers the US, by state or county. am not aware of similar resource internationally or as to any other country."

Here's one. Seems legit, but who knows.

Not gonna lie, feel pretty smug that the country I live in is leading this list with 82% vaxxed with one shot and 72% with 2.

Thanks, Capitão Iglo!

[The joke is that when the vaccination here was getting underway, the government fired a lackadaisical bureaucrat of the worst kind and brought in a vice-admiral to run the show, who has done a bang up job so far. Since he's the spit & image of the sea captain who flogs fish nuggets, we all made fun of him at first. Now, he's probably on his way to leading the country. ]
posted by chavenet at 1:51 PM on August 25, 2021 [4 favorites]

What are legitimate religious reasons to not get the vaccine?

Actual deities would probably argue that they're off the hook, but I'm not convinced they can't transmit viruses.

(I spent a lot of high school Latin class wondering about whether Zeus/Jupiter/Whoever could be a carrier of STDs)
posted by thivaia at 1:54 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

I think the things that makes this different from the slippery slope arguments are:
1. Vaccines are free, and significantly easier to accomplish than smoking cessation/weight loss/practically anything else.
2. Delta probably offers easy vaccination options (the official memo mentions "Delta clinics") for its employees, and has possibly offered free sick leave for employees to take and recover from the vaccine (in California this is required by law).

I think free preventative medical care is a reasonable thing to make these sorts of carrot/stick agreements about.
posted by that girl at 1:55 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

but religious extremists currently have a lot of sway over our democracy, I guess.

It's worth calling out that in this context, religious beliefs is broader than just traditional religion. For example, vegans have successfully argued against a vaccine mandate using the religious exemption (Chenzira v. Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center).
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 1:55 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

that girl: "Vaccines are free"

No, they aren't. They are administered without costs (in most if not all countries), which is the right thing to do to fight the disease, but they are not free. We are all going to be paying for covid for a long, long time.
posted by chavenet at 2:03 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

‘I’m still not planning to get it’: FDA approval not swaying some vaccine holdouts; Skeptics who were waiting on regulators now say they have new doubts (Washington Post; archived link) Only a single unvaccinated person interviewed by The Post said the FDA approval had changed his mind — but he’s not eligible to get vaccinated until November because he received Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody treatment for a recent coronavirus infection.

“I can’t get it for 90 days according to my doctor because of the antibodies I got now from the corona,” said Cliff Barnett, 67, of Mobile, Ala., who was hospitalized for five days this month. Barnett said he did not regret waiting to get vaccinated, despite a case of coronavirus that was so severe he collapsed to the floor when he walked into the hospital two weeks ago. “It could’ve been worse,” he said.

The Post notes how waaaay back in June, the Kaiser Family Foundation found that 31 percent of unvaccinated adults said they would be more likely to get vaccinated if the FDA granted full approval to one of the vaccines. Goalposts moved, again and again.

Please note, these links concern vaccine-eligible American adults who aren't getting vaccinated. NOT those who can't be vaccinated due to medical contraindications. That group would benefit from those vaccine-eligible adults getting vaccinated. We would all benefit from vaccine-eligible adults getting vaccinated. Those vaccine-eligible adults themselves would benefit from -- Jeez Louise, is there an acronym yet for this 'skeptic/hesitant' crowd, and is 'blithely narcissistic' worked in somewhere? The Post article has the figure as "the roughly 85 million still-unvaccinated eligible Americans," fml.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:13 PM on August 25, 2021 [14 favorites]

For example, vegans have successfully argued against a vaccine mandate using the religious exemption

Tenuous and no less extremist than a genuine religious belief. Nonetheless, her objection appeared to be that the vaccine in question (flu) was made with animal products, which is not an issue for mRNA vaccines, and so probably not so relevant here — at least until some extremist inevitably cashes in on starting an anti-mRNA cult, I guess.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:21 PM on August 25, 2021 [1 favorite]

Yeah, my ire is for vaccine-eligible adults who do not have any medical issues that prevent them from being vaxxed. Honestly, those folks who cannot get vaxxed because health reasons would be so much safer with everyone who is able to be vaxxed surrounding them. Okay, maybe that is too broad, but it would be some assurance in these trying times. I wish I could make those folks understand that if you won't do it for yourself, please do it for the folks who really want to and can't.
posted by Kitteh at 2:21 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

For example, vegans have successfully argued against a vaccine mandate using the religious exemption

As a vegan, those are bad vegans.
posted by Kitteh at 2:22 PM on August 25, 2021 [25 favorites]

But let's face it. It's not even about them understanding. It's all a face saving gesture. To justify to ourselves that in spite of whatever actions we want to take because of whatever motivations, goals, needs, whatever we have that we're still good people. Because we all need to feel like we're good people and we'd be good people if not for this one thing.

Man some people haven't had a lifelong mental illness telling them they're the worst person on earth every day and it shows, lol.

But go ahead and stay on your high horse, it's really comfortable when you don't have staff that have been with you 7+ years that would be fired in a pandemic when you shut your doors.

Is it fair that a business owner has to choose between actively and consciously perpetuating a lethal pandemic and going bankrupt*? Of course not. That decision should be well out of an individual's hand. But it isn't. And it isn't going to be, so we have to stop pretending that it will, somehow, magically.

It's NOT easy. But nobody fuckin' promised Easy. People are going to have to start making sucky decisions that suck. Refusing to make decisions, refusing to own that sometimes all outcomes are a degree of bad, refusing to look reality in the face, is at the root of EVERYTHING. All of this shit that is going to suffocate, sicken, burn, drown, and starve every last fucking one of us idiot monkeys in shoes on this godforsaken planet, and if not us, our kids, and their kids. It's the longest, stupidest, most fatal game of hot potato ever played. I'm sorry if the person who stops playing it is your boss, and you have to find another job. But if someone doesn't stop playing we all spend the rest of our finite human lives doing this shit. So I'm sorry, my reserves of patience are at zero.

*possibly, but come on, not definitely; lots of businesses get yelled at by someone's fucknut grandpa on Facebook every day and yet they persist.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:33 PM on August 25, 2021 [9 favorites]

Dutch Reformed Congregations - This denomination has a tradition of declining immunizations. Some members decline vaccination on the basis that it interferes with divine providence. However, others within the faith accept immunization as a gift from God to be used with gratitude.

Man, Calvinists are weird.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:45 PM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

Actual side question: Are there any vaccine mandates/penalties which don't contain medical exemption clauses?
posted by aramaic at 1:12 PM on August 25 [1 favorite +] [!]

In British Columbia, the new proof of vaccine mandate for discretionary activities--it will require at least one dose by Sept. 13 and full vaccination + 7 days by Oct. 24--does not have a medical exemption clause. The only exemption is for children under 12, because they cannot get vaccinated yet. No religious exemptions either. Those 12 or older who cannot provide proof of vaccination will not be allowed into restaurants (indoor dining or patios), indoor ticketed sporting events, concerts, movie theatres, gyms/fitness centres, or nightclubs, among other things.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:15 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

Quebec's new vaccine passport app will have some way of having your doctor apply for a code for you to be allowed to access services when you are medically unable to be vaccinated, though the details aren't out yet.
posted by jeather at 3:18 PM on August 25, 2021

For your new-agey anti-vaxxer 'friends': A Guide to the Health Benefits of mRNA Wellness Therapy
posted by mbo at 3:18 PM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

SoberHighland: OK, I get that there ARE ways to prove someone is a smoker. But do any companies officially check on this stuff in practice?

Per this book, Gavin De Becker Associates does test for nicotine for their employees, especially security agents. A bodyguard fiending for a smoke can be less than sharp on the job.
posted by dr_dank at 3:39 PM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

Mod note: A few comments removed; there's plenty to be worried and exhausted and angry about regarding the last dozen and a half months or so of COVID, but basically none of that is taking place on or being willfully perpetuated by folks on MeFi, and I need everybody to remember that and act with a modicum of kindness here. Taking shots at each other isn't going to accomplish jack shit, it's just gonna make this a worse place to be when a lot of folks need a place like this more than ever. Please find a different outlet if you're feeling overwhelmed, don't take it out on each other. Your Childhood Pet Rock, it seems like you're having a hard time and I'm sympathetic but this applies in particular in this thread to you. Please reel it in.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:51 PM on August 25, 2021 [12 favorites]

Re: Who's vaccinated and who ain't - NBC News poll shows demographic breakdown of the vaccinated in the U.S. (published Aug 24)

All adults: 69 percent
Men: 67 percent
Women: 71 percent
18-34: 63 percent
35-49: 58 percent
50-64: 71 percent
65+: 86 percent
Whites: 66 percent
Blacks: 76 percent
Latinos: 71 percent
Urban residents: 79 percent
Suburban residents: 67 percent
Rural residents: 52 percent
White evangelicals: 59 percent
Democrats: 88 percent
Independents: 60 percent
Republicans: 55 percent
Republicans who support Trump more than party: 46 percent
Republicans who support party more than Trump: 62 percent
Democratic Sanders-Warren voters: 88 percent
Democratic Biden voters: 87 percent
Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91 percent
Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50 percent
White non-college grads: 60 percent
White college grads: 80 percent
posted by soundguy99 at 4:04 PM on August 25, 2021 [47 favorites]

Dutch Reformed Congregations - This denomination has a tradition of declining immunizations. Some members decline vaccination on the basis that it interferes with divine providence. However, others within the faith accept immunization as a gift from God to be used with gratitude.

Man, Calvinists are weird.

"Calvinism" is certainly problematic in lots of ways (I grew up Dutch Reformed and have lots of feelings about it) but the issue is White supremacy and backlash to the idea of a genuinely multiracial democratic society, which gets channeled in all kinds of weird ways.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:18 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91 percent
Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50 percent

And there it is.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 4:22 PM on August 25, 2021 [13 favorites]

I wish I could make those folks understand that if you won't do it for yourself, please do it for the folks who really want to and can't.

Same, but when the traditional "for the children!" didn't register, vulnerable fellow adults were not likely to make the cut either. (Suddenly reminded of the time Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick offered up seniors as sacrificial lambs for the sake of their grandchildren's economic future. That was in March 2020. Patrick's still in office; two days ago, he blamed the latest COVID-19 surge in Texas on Black residents.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:33 PM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

Texas racism aside, there are fewer and fewer legitimate excuses, every day:

Heart Problem More Common After Covid-19 Than After Vaccination, Study Finds

The Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine is associated with an increased risk of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle, a large new study from Israel confirms. But the side effect remains rare, and Covid-19 is more likely to cause myocarditis than the vaccine is, scientists reported on Wednesday.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:02 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

SoberHighland: do any companies officially check on this stuff in practice?

Many horticulture jobs specify non smokers as all smokers carry tobacco mosaic virus, which is bad news for tomatoes and many other plants
posted by unearthed at 5:06 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91 percent
Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50 percent

And there it is.

“But how can we tell the vaccinated customers from the unvaccinated?”

“Ask them who won the election.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:15 PM on August 25, 2021 [29 favorites]

For the record more than anything else, since I was the one who introduced the whole derail about people who had a medical reason not to be vaccinated:

My original comment about that, which I admit might have been phrased a bit better, wasn't actually doubting the existence of people who had legit medical reasons not to be vaccinated. On the contrary - I absolutely accept that such people exist.

My comment was more one about percentages. What I mean is: 25% of the Delta workforce has not been vaccinated, and I do not believe that that is because that same 25% of the Delta workforce has the kinds of immune disorders which mstoke discusses here or have the kinds of allergies to the components which would prevent a vaccination, or what have you. I'd say it's a safer bet that maybe only 2-5% of them are wrestling with that kind of situation, and the other 20% are just all "uh, yeah, I got a medical excuse like Sid over there has. What'd he say he had? Yeah, that, I got that too...."

....And for those in the thread who have been trying to quibble about the numbers of people who have died recently vs. the number of cases: look, my nephew N is the only member of my family who hasn't been vaccinated yet, and that's because he only just turned ten. He's a cool little dude, seriously into Lego and drawing anime and when he was four he saw a picture of the Marvel character Venom and re-named him Cheese-Face and he was a stagehand in his town's summer kids' theater and it was seriously cute and if he catches Covid from some asshole who hasn't been vaccinated because they think they can't be bothered, even if he does get better he'd still have a world of hurt to get through which he does NOT deserve, so who the fuck CARES if he doesn't die, his Aunt EC would still be ready to shank someone for getting him sick.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:16 PM on August 25, 2021 [16 favorites]

Let's Delta this Corona. #dies
posted by neon909 at 5:57 PM on August 25, 2021

>Patience and attempts to educate people who don't want to
>learn are very 2020, and resulted in people killing the guards at
>the Senate and invading.

No. Could y'all please just stop this screaming that everyone who hasn't been vaccinated is an ignorant, terrible, evil person?

Uh, that's not what that says?

However, I will say that people who aren't and do not want to be educated about Covid are ignorant, terrible, evil people. As are those who solely on force of ego and fear have decided they know better than experts.

We've tolerated these people, but it's time to stop.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:01 PM on August 25, 2021 [7 favorites]

DirtyOldTown, it seems to really irritate a lot of Isbell fans who I guess don't listen to lyrics that he's now requiring proof of vaccination or a negative test to get into his shows, but I'm happy to show mine. Some venues are refusing to comply, and the band is canceling shows, so they're putting their money where their mouths are. I've got tickets for the Ryman in October and I need to book tickets this weekend but I've been holding out because I wonder if the show's really going to happen. Not because of the venue, but because I'm starting to see lots of things canceled or postponed again. I'm not real excited about traveling right now and a work trip was just canceled because of Delta (the variant, not the airline).
posted by wintermind at 7:14 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

The parent of one of my son's friends hasn't been vaccinated. Everyone else in that circle of friends is vaccinated, just that one parent. They hear about us getting vaccinated and they're still worried about side effects. They're a single parent so maybe they're worried about who will take care of their kid if they get a reaction to the vaccine (not that getting covid couldn't be a lot worse), I don't know. They mask and social distance and on a personal level they're really kind and thoughtful but I find it hard to square that with them hoping enough other people get the vaccine so that we can reach herd immunity and they won't need to be vaccinated themselves. I'm hoping that their employer or industry mandates vaccines because I don't think they would object too much if they were told they had to get it but as long as it's a choice they'll likely choose not to.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:40 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

jordantwodelta: Air Canada is following suite: all employees must be vaccinated by October 30 or face termination/unpaid leave.

I just got a text from a friend saying that an Air Canada flight attendant friend of ours, who has been refusing the vaccination, is now vaccinated!
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 7:43 PM on August 25, 2021 [13 favorites]

Off topic, but since it keeps coming up: Ever notice how few police associations ever use the word "union"? They almost all go with "association" instead. My gut says this is because most police are anti-union in all cases but their own.
posted by elwoodwiles at 7:52 PM on August 25, 2021 [8 favorites]

Today is the 77th anniversary of my uncle getting shot down over Germany. If the nation can send 19 year olds to bomb Nazis, an airline can mandate a vaccine to fly the friendly fucking skies.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on August 25, 2021 [18 favorites]

What worldview is one expressing and what satisfaction does one derive when calling more than one quarter of the adult population "evil"?
posted by PhineasGage at 9:19 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

I'm interested in this "so-called breakthrough infections among the vaccinated" phrasing, right after a post about Israel seeing a surge in post-vax COVID infection rates.

Multiple mainstream news articles use quotes when describing breakthroughs. Here's a New Yorker article from earlier this week about this.
posted by geoff. at 9:36 PM on August 25, 2021

What worldview is one expressing and what satisfaction does one derive when calling more than one quarter of the adult population "evil"?

I don't know why you assume it's satisfying rather than absolutely batshit terrifying.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:09 PM on August 25, 2021 [14 favorites]

This also must have been the thing I heard covered on NPR this morning; I missed exactly who the speaker was, I only turned on in time for them to mention that it was time to "stop coddling" the anti-vaxxers and pointing out that "the people who have been vaccinated have feelings too, we need to consider them."

This observation from The West Wing feels just as relevant now as it did 20 years ago.
posted by myotahapea at 11:11 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

This shit is a swab, a piece of paper in a plastic clip, and a few drops of antibody solution. How are we not manufacturing them in the squillions and just getting them into people's hands?

This actually came up on FDA’s Town Hall today, with a question that asked what was FDA “going to do” to meet the need for point of care and home tests. It’s true there’s probably some tests waiting in the wings for their EUA, but Stenzel pretty much said, we’re already doing it -we’ve given EUA to many of these types of tests - FDA has no control over getting manufacturers to scale up.

(Of course, other government agencies could be and hopefully are supporting that very thing.)

Seems like some manufacturers thought covid was over...
posted by Tandem Affinity at 11:38 PM on August 25, 2021 [2 favorites]

This shit is a swab, a piece of paper in a plastic clip, and a few drops of antibody solution. How are we not manufacturing them in the squillions and just getting them into people's hands?
That one's easy. Manufacturers figured the demand was going to drop after the previous wave, so they shredded the excess stock. There's not enough profit in "manufacturing them in the squillions"
posted by CrystalDave at 11:45 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]

Antigen tests are fairly cheap and fairly available. I can get a two pack from my local CVS for $25. The tests could be cheaper but I don't think that price is the problem. People aren't interested in testing. That reluctance is pretty weird because even if you don't care about spreading the virus to others it's in your self interest to know that you're positive early on. Monoclonal antibodies are an effective treatment in the early stages of covid, later not so much.
posted by rdr at 1:38 AM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]

That reluctance is pretty weird because even if you don't care about spreading the virus to others it's in your self interest to know that you're positive early on

If you're vaccinated, there's a darn good chance that you won't get very sick.

If you're living paycheck to paycheck, and/or have a job where getting extended time off to quarantine is difficult to impossible (and there are a ton of jobs that simply can't be done remotely, which TBH Metafilter as a whole often seems to have trouble remembering), and/or have family situations (kids, elder care) with similar complexities - the logistics of getting the right family members to the right places at the right times while still holding down a job, with little room for error . . . getting a test if you don't have symptoms or 100% confirmed contact with someone who's sick is playing Russian roulette. You test positive, you're fucked even if you don't get sick at all.

Reluctance to self-test is absolutely understandable from a (necessary) self-interest standpoint, even though it's objectionable from a moral/ethical/community health standpoint. Because even with the measures taken over the last year, in the US barely-restrained capitalism still rules and our social safety net is still pretty shit.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:49 AM on August 26, 2021 [15 favorites]

It is interesting to see the vaccination stats broken out by demographics and politics. Here in the French Caribbean, free vaccination has been available for months and rates are still at 20-30%. At a march against mandatory vaccination (which has never even been proposed here) I would say white people from France and elsewhere were disproportionately present, but there were a lot of Black people, too.

I have a lot more empathy for local people who have been abused by government for the last 400 years. On some of these islands they continued to allow the use of a dangerous pesticide for years after it was outlawed in the rest of France, so companies could use up the rest of their stock. Some of the distrust stems directly from colonial and post colonial abuses.

I don’t have empathy for the ignorant white folk who have not suffered from the same kinds of government shenanigans, but I would say that vaccine refusal is more about ignorance here than politics. I doubt a survey would pick up similar trends, except to the extent that education tracks with political views.

Which is to say, this is a terrible disaster that is currently killing off many of the last people who can remember this island and its traditions from before the tourism era. But it is impossible to be angry at everyone.
posted by snofoam at 4:32 AM on August 26, 2021 [11 favorites]

There's not enough profit in "manufacturing them in the squillions"

The tests have a seven month shelf life and the ones destroyed had expired. You can ask why they didn't keep making them anyway--where were the government subsidies to do so? The push for nationalization?

Antigen tests are fairly cheap and fairly available. I can get a two pack from my local CVS for $25.

$50/month per person in a household is not an insignificant amount for a good chunk of the population. So I'm not blaming people who balk at the cost. Though I would say to them the vaccine is free--and I know you're not saying that the tests should not be free.
posted by Anonymous at 5:16 AM on August 26, 2021

Antigen tests are fairly cheap and fairly available. I can get a two pack from my local CVS for $25.

$50/month per person in a household is not an insignificant amount for a good chunk of the population.

Yup, and on top of that that 2-pack of home tests is really meant to be used within a week or so - the idea being that you take one test and then the other within 3-5 days, in case the first test gave a false negative through user error or just a bad test card or because the person tested was potentially infected but the proteins detected by the antigen test hadn't shown up yet.

If we wanted to get serious about DIY antigen testing, we need to have weekly tests, and you can damn well bet that even if the CVS cashier that sold you the antigen test could afford $25 a month for themselves, $25 a week is a whole other ball game.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:36 AM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]

soundguy99, thanks for the stats.

"Republicans: 55 percent
Republicans who support Trump more than party: 46 percent
Republicans who support party more than Trump: 62 percent
Democratic Sanders-Warren voters: 88 percent
Democratic Biden voters: 87 percent
Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91 percent
Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50 percent"

I'm surprised the proportion of Trump supporters is that high.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:37 AM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]

I'm surprised the proportion of Trump supporters is that high.

There's a fairly good percentage (e.g., 90% of those in Congress) who know what the reality of the situation is. They either want to "own the libs", or keep from alienation the "true believers" who will turn on them if they actively disagree with Trump. Trump himself go booed by the latter when he told them to get vaxxed
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:02 AM on August 26, 2021

do not give extra sick days to people who get Covid and aren't vaccinated;

Just about everyone who gets Covid has days where they aren't too symptomatic. If they can't take sick days because they are unvaccinated, you want them coming to work, and spreading it to passengers?
posted by billm at 7:05 AM on August 26, 2021 [4 favorites]

Looks like Air Canada is just going to straight up fire you if you’re not vaxxed before November. A+
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:13 AM on August 26, 2021 [9 favorites]

I just want to say I have a lot of sympathy for everyone struggling to come to terms with anti-vaxxers right now. I think this is probably a lot harder on people for whom, prior to 2020, "anti-vax" was some vague fringe belief that they had probably never personally encountered.

My mom was one of the original anti-vaxxers. I'm lucky I survived to adulthood (I got SO many jabs when I turned 18). People are (rightfully) extremely angry and confused that anti-vaxxers refuse to do this one simple safe, scientifically-validated thing to protect a bunch of strangers. Reader, they wouldn't even do it to protect their own children.

At the same time, they were absolutely convinced that they were doing it to protect their children. Like, the characterization I tend to see is "these people are just assholes who don't care about anyone." And like, yes, by definition of their actions, true. But the original anti-vaxxers did not refuse to get their kids vaccinated because they didn't care about them. My mother cared plenty about my health, I have a billion bottles of essential oils, elderberry, herbal supplements, pamphlets for bee venom therapy, chiropractic business cards, etc. that she shoved on me to prove it. But she was (and still is) absolutely convinced that vaccines are dangerous and harmful.

I've had 20+ years to come to grips with the fact that no amount of science, reason, logic, or empathy will change my mother's mind. To process my grief and anger about the fact that I could have died due to her negligence. And to realize that as much as I would like to think it was because she hated me and wanted me to suffer, she did it because she thought it was the right thing for me. She was just completely, irrevocably wrong. I think many people are not used to their actual physical health being at the mercy of someone who is completely incorrect about medicine and won't entertain any information to the contrary. Of course, other people were aware that anti-vaxxers existed before 2020, but most of them never got close enough to be hurt by them. Now, everyone's in the same boat as I was for most of my childhood and the shock of it is rough.

I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. And I absolutely understand the desire to just write people off as evil assholes. Again, by definition of their behavior, this is true! But in thinking about their motives, it isn't necessarily (it is true for some, I'm sure, but I'm not talking about them). And that matters, not because it absolves them of anything, but because the hurt is much more complex when you acknowledge the reality that (at least some of) these people actually do care about others, they just do so through 100% magical thinking that is demonstrably harmful. It hurts more to be harmed by people who care than people who don't. That's betrayal, baby. Who cares if some random asshole does asshole things? They're expected to. But when people who supposedly care do things to harm you? That's so, so much worse. Any abuse victim will tell you. If my mom just hated me, it would have been easy. The fact that she did it because she thought it was the best way to protect me was a lot fucking harder to cope with and process.

Again, it's perfectly valid to say "they're all evil because their actions are." But I've found that, as humans, we aren't strict behaviorists that are willing to treat the human mind as a black box. We think about what people mean, what they think, what they want. And if you're struggling because you can't understand why so many people want to do evil, maybe it's because many of them don't, but are doing evil anyway. And there's a lot of complex feelings that come out of having your health directly held hostage by someone like that.

But listen. I don't expect anyone to process that shit in the middle of a fucking pandemic. I fully support anyone who does not have the bandwidth to do that right now. Please chant "they're all evil assholes" as a mantra to get yourself through this hellscape. That is a useful coping mechanism--and also a valid way to interpret the situation, full stop. But I can say that from my experience, the hurt ends up being a lot more complex than you realize. There's a lot more grief, anger, betrayal, etc. to process when (supernatural-force-of-your-choice willing) you come out the other side. I don't say this to depress people, but to perhaps provide some clarity to the complex emotions they may be feeling.
posted by brook horse at 7:19 AM on August 26, 2021 [52 favorites]

Just FYI, that link from billm goes to an anti-Covid-vax dude's website. There are clearly some attribution errors going on there as well.
posted by cooker girl at 7:25 AM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]

On topic though, mandates really are the only way to get people like this to change their behavior. There's literally nothing else that will work other than "let's make this thing illegal/extra hard to do" (though they will fight and scream through the entire legislative process). You aren't going to change their minds, so you have to make it so they can't inflict their magical thinking on other people without significant consequence. I don't think corporations should be the ones handling this, though, which is true of most things.
posted by brook horse at 7:25 AM on August 26, 2021 [13 favorites]

The CDC's VAERS database currently lists 13,000 deaths associated with the Covid vaccines. Correlation is not causation, and there are problems with self-reported, unvetted data

Indeed, which is probably why you shouldn't have depended on a site that seems dedicated to hyping vaccine deaths. In fact, not only does the site owner seem to be more than a little conspiratorial, it looks as if they're just straight out lying about the both numbers and causes, as the CDC themselves notes ~7000 deaths, none of which are "associated with [Pfizer/Moderna] Covid vaccines":

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 363 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through August 23, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.

posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:26 AM on August 26, 2021 [5 favorites]

Or as Reuters put it earlier this month:

Claims of widespread death due to COVID-19 vaccines reported on VAERS are false. Entries in VAERS do not prove causality. According to the CDC, there have been three confirmed deaths connected to the Janssen COVID-19 vaccine.

posted by gwint at 7:33 AM on August 26, 2021 [7 favorites]

Mod note: Comment linking to anti-vax misinformation site removed; please avoid perpetuating anti-vax misinformation.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:46 AM on August 26, 2021 [14 favorites]

Apologies for linking to an anti-vaxxer's website; I didn't know that to be the case, and it had a convenient summary of VAERS data. (I'm vaccinated, and I think you should be too.)

My only point was intended to be that while I think the vaccines are safe, to say that there is only one death caused by them, from thrombosis (as linked above), is false. The number is greater than 1, and less than ~7000.

But even if it were greater than 7000, the vaccine is much safer than getting the disease.
posted by billm at 8:37 AM on August 26, 2021

it had a convenient summary of VAERS data.

It has no such thing.

My only point was intended to be that while I think the vaccines are safe, to say that there is only one death caused by them, from thrombosis (as linked above), is false. The number is greater than 1, and less than ~7000.

Nope, according to the CDC, there are zero deaths in the US caused by the vaccine. The 7000 number is the total number of deaths that happened after someone became vaccinated, regardless of cause.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:48 AM on August 26, 2021 [13 favorites]

Yeah the vaccine doesn't make you immortal. People die for various reasons every day, they're not going to stop doing that because they get vaccinated. The 7000 number in no way implies that they were caused by the vaccine, any more than "we followed all of the people who watched the Superbowl and 70 of them died" means that there are any deaths caused by watching the Superbowl. Of course if you follow any group of people--particularly one with a large portion of sick and elderly people--for a couple of months, some number of them are going to die. I'm surprised it isn't higher, honestly, but I guess I don't know the average amount of deaths for the same time period.
posted by brook horse at 9:11 AM on August 26, 2021 [6 favorites]

Just about everyone who gets Covid has days where they aren't too symptomatic. If they can't take sick days because they are unvaccinated, you want them coming to work, and spreading it to passengers?


No. I think that as soon as their test results show they are positive, they are sent home and can't come back to work for [whatever the appropriate period currently is], whatever symptoms they are or aren't feeling. There should be at least daily tests for unvaccinated people.

(Air Canada, which is requiring that staff be vaccinated, is in fact legally required to do this. This is great, the government requiring vaccines means that I can, for instance, do a team sport or see a movie knowing that everyone in the theatre (not, sadly, employees) or the team is vaccinated.)
posted by jeather at 9:13 AM on August 26, 2021 [4 favorites]

Based on the data I've seen, the vaccine is actually more reliable than the tests.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:09 AM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]

You know, at this point, I'm happy with any vaccine mandates from anybody with the means to enforce them. I'm serious, if the Ku Klux Klan mandated vaccinations for its members, I'd say sure, and let's not get confused here, but I'm for this one thing. I'm over the question of who should, ideally, be doing this... Any precedents created will be vulnerable to the "but Covid" argument anyway, and in general, evil people doing good is, to a first approximation, good. Fuck it.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 11:32 AM on August 26, 2021 [6 favorites]

Police in 2021:
1) Obsessed with the idea that their jobs are uniquely dangerous
2) Dying from COVID more than all other causes combined
3) Opposed to vaccine mandate
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on August 25

This suggests that Police are Right-Extreme and DGAF about Protect or Serve. Not news to most, but a reminder.
posted by theora55 at 11:59 AM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]

Given the reports I'm seeing about fake vax-card schemes going one step further & paying people with records access to insert people into databases (so they've got valid lot numbers and everything),
1. I'm not surprised that's picking up with this sort of pressure (After all, if $200 gets your employer off your back...)
2. I'll be curious how many 'breakthrough cases' end up being people with fake records catching it
3. There'll be a valuable lesson learned in the whole "do we need to go lo-fi with this so we don't scare people off by having centralized records, much like they've hamstrung gun records?" question for next time.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:05 PM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]

I have a lot more empathy for local people who have been abused by government for the last 400 years. On some of these islands they continued to allow the use of a dangerous pesticide for years after it was outlawed in the rest of France, so companies could use up the rest of their stock. Some of the distrust stems directly from colonial and post colonial abuses.

Right now, in Arkansas, a jail doctor prescribes livestock drug ivermectin to detainees with covid-19 despite FDA warnings (Washington Post, Aug. 26, 2021) Washington County Detention Center in Fayetteville's health-care provider is Karas Health Care; owner and lead physician Robert Karas told a local justice of the peace that detainees received ivermectin (more than 350 people, per Karas's now-deleted FB posts; inmate bed capacity is 700), and that he was taking the drug himself and giving it to family members. Karas Health is also an on-site medical provider for county employees, one of whom received an ivermectin prescription despite receiving a negative rapid test. “Here I am, already tested negative, and they’re prescribing it to me,” said the employee, who said they contacted their doctor after receiving the prescriptions because they already take medication for a preexisting condition. "What about the guys in the jail? They can’t get a second opinion like I did,” the employee said. “I don’t know any of them in there and probably wouldn’t hang out with any of them, but they’re human beings.”

The Arkansas Department of Health told The Post that it does not track the use of prescription ivermectin, but it referred to a Tuesday letter that confirmed that the Arkansas Poison Center has received “an increasing number of calls regarding individuals who took ivermectin intended for animal or livestock use.” (It's a problem in Mississippi and other states, too.) Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19, FDA alert, May 2021. Rampant, undisclosed medical experimentation, deliberate misinformation and inadequate medical care have marginalized and vulnerable people understandably wary, and abuses continue during this pandemic. Yet in the US eligible-but-unvaccinated holdouts trend white & Republican.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:41 PM on August 26, 2021 [11 favorites]

Man, I'd hate to be a parasitic mite in rural America right now.

It's a good thing that ivermectin has such a good safety profile. Possibly not if you take it in large animal doses because you have bought it from a veterinary supplier. I also wonder if maybe oral medication formulated for hindgut fermenters might have additional ingredients in it that will give you real interesting gastrointestinal effects?

A friend of mine is a family doctor in Texas and had to write a prescription for Scabies last week - he wrote "FOR SCABIES" on the prescription to avoid it getting bounced by the pharmacy.
posted by atrazine at 4:08 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]

It's a good thing that ivermectin has such a good safety profile. Possibly not if you take it in large animal doses because you have bought it from a veterinary supplier.

Help yourself to a search of the term "rope worms" if you want to know how it's going. The ivermectin people think they're pooping out parasitic worms, but they're actually shitting out the lining of their intestines.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:54 PM on August 26, 2021 [5 favorites]

Ivermectin is the main active ingredient in topical treatments for rosacea (e.g. Soolantra). But, a tube of Soolantra costs around $600 retail, and is still over $100 even with the use of coupons, if your prescription drug coverage plan doesn't cover it. So it's been a known thing for rosacea sufferers to get ivermectin from veterinary suppliers and self-medicate, guessing at the dosage.

And now people are ingesting it in random quantities? Okay.
posted by needled at 5:10 PM on August 26, 2021

Whoa, whoa now. Let's not blame it on the drug being for veterinary use. They are just as good about showing their concentrations and dosages as any other medicine. I have a vial of livestock ivermectin, and it says quite clearly "1% m/v sterile solution for injection". It even helpfully gives you the dosing guideline (for cattle, of course) "1 ml per 110 lbs" or ~220 ug/kg body weight, which is apparently quite survivable for a human (if you're really infested with stuff).

(Though in fairness, it does say later on in the paper that "at least 22 cases of subcutaneous ivermectin use have been reported, with 11 patients surviving treatment"... and if the people shooting themselves up with ivermectin could read, they'd probably be very upset by that.)

If people are poisoning themselves with this stuff, that's on them. The last thing I want to be dealing with is more restrictions on getting veterinary drugs because some people are just too fucking stupid to exist on their own.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:43 PM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]

Have you seen my ivermectin?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:14 PM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]

So it's been a known thing for rosacea sufferers to get ivermectin from veterinary suppliers and self-medicate, guessing at the dosage.

As much of a tragedy as this all is in the larger scope of things — as much as a lot of it is caused directly by Republicans collectively spreading deadly misinformation, especially — one thing we could learn from all of this is to try to get together and fight in the long term for single-payer, universal healthcare.

If it wasn't up to Republican states and legislators and governors in those states to be able to literally poison the waters inside their states and across the country, where public health and information are concerned — if it wasn't up to the private sector to make decisions like those Delta is making to cut healthcare costs and keep the company afloat — we probably wouldn't have to deal with this constant stream of fake treatment bullshit, and scenarios where people have to self-medicate for lack of inexpensive meds and access to doctors.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:21 PM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]

I wish you were right, TSHBO, but the weird eruption of these alternative treatments is all about the direct marketing shysters who have infested the right-wing mediasphere for decades and the current right-wing media nutjobs' desire to stick it to the libs. Even right-wingers who have Medicare or private insurance and have their own GPs are choosing to forego vaccination in favor of lunacy like invermectin.
posted by PhineasGage at 7:59 PM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]

Here's a fascinating thread:

Where did this ivermectin obsession come from? Who could possibly benefit from it?

Most importantly, why did my antivaxx aunt start eating horse goo from the tractor store?

It’s complicated, but here are some answers.

posted by PhineasGage at 9:58 AM on August 27, 2021 [5 favorites]

Ivermectin is the main active ingredient in topical treatments for rosacea (e.g. Soolantra).

Holy crap. I just realized I’ve been rubbing ivermectin on my face every morning. I guess I knew the name of the active ingredient, but for some reason I didn’t make the connection.

Since I’m also vaccinated, I guess I’m basically immune from covid.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:41 AM on August 27, 2021 [3 favorites]

Texas Anti-Mask ‘Freedom Rally’ Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19

In July, Caleb Wallace reportedly helped organize “The Freedom Rally,” an event that billed itself as a protest against the “government being in control of our lives.” He also founded “The San Angelo Freedom Defenders,” which hosted a rally last year to “end COVID tyranny.”

He wrote a letter in April to the San Angelo Independent School District and published by a local news outlet demanding that the school district “rescind ALL COVID-related policies immediately.” He falsely claimed that wearing masks had harmful effects on children and that there was “little evidence that masks worked for anyone.”

When he first felt symptoms on July 26, his wife told the Standard-Times, he refused to get tested or seek medical care. He instead began treating himself with a cocktail of Vitamin C, zinc, aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug that has been falsely promoted as an effective treatment for COVID-19 by conservative media. He was taken to the hospital on July 30.

I wonder how many dead loved ones it will take before people will start coming with pitchforks for the Republican terrorists who are spreading deadly misinformation?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:37 AM on August 27, 2021

I wonder how many dead loved ones it will take before people will start coming with pitchforks for the Republican terrorists who are spreading deadly misinformation?

Trumpism is essential a religion now, since it's based on pure faith, not evidence. Given that Jim Bakker is still alive and selling "miracle blankets," I'd say never.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:54 AM on August 27, 2021 [3 favorites]

I have to believe we are going to start seeing lawsuits as the dead children start piling up. Not from the anti-maskers and antivaxers but from the parents who had no choice but to send their kids to school.
posted by archimago at 12:03 PM on August 27, 2021 [4 favorites]

I have to believe we are going to start seeing lawsuits as the dead children start piling up. Not from the anti-maskers and antivaxers but from the parents who had no choice but to send their kids to school.

I have been wondering when this will happen and if it will turn into a major issue. There is a point at which failing to take basic precautions becomes gross endangerment and it seems like liability would be accrued.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:52 PM on August 27, 2021 [2 favorites]

I have been wondering when this will happen and if it will turn into a major issue. There is a point at which failing to take basic precautions becomes gross endangerment and it seems like liability would be accrued.

Leadership in the United States at just about every level is pretty completely insulated from any liability or criminal investigations. The people can only really sue themselves.
posted by srboisvert at 1:18 PM on August 27, 2021 [3 favorites]

the weird eruption of these alternative treatments is all about the direct marketing shysters who have infested the right-wing mediasphere for decades and the current right-wing media nutjobs' desire to stick it to the libs.

It's more than just the direct marketing grift though. I've been getting dog deworming medication ads 2 or 3 times per morning run on Spotify for the last two months. I can only assume they are hoping to cash in on the covidiot horse deworming market as I don't have a dog. The weird part to me is that ad prominently mentions the neurological side-effects of the medication so if you are choosing de-worming meds you are opting into the risks of brain damage and/or seizures amongst other side-effects in your effort to avoid taking one of the safest life saving medicines possible.
posted by srboisvert at 1:26 PM on August 27, 2021

Regarding possible lawsuits: There's an ongoing reporting lag for COVID infections and deaths. As of August 19, over 4.59 million children have tested positive for COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic. Over 180,000 cases were added the past week, reaching levels of the previous winter surge of 2020-21. For the week ending August 19, children were 22.4% of reported weekly COVID-19 cases. (Children and COVID-19: State-Level Data Report, updated Aug. 23, 2021, aap.org.) Florida’s COVID deaths climb as children lead state in positivity rate (Tampa Bay Times, Aug. 20, 2021), One out of every four COVID-19 infections recorded by the state in the most recent seven-day period were 19 or younger. As of Friday [Aug. 13], eight children younger than 16 have died with COVID-19 in Florida while 289,000 have tested positive.

Delta Air Lines really doesn't want to call the delta variant the 'delta variant' (WaPo via Yahoo, Aug. 23, 2021) Delta's chief health officer, Henry Ting, responded to someone on Twitter on June 29 who called the naming coincidence unfair, given the carrier's pandemic-era practices such as blocking out middle seats after other airlines had stopped.

"We prefer to call it the B. 1.617.2 variant since that is so much more simple to say and remember," Ting replied.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:28 PM on August 27, 2021 [4 favorites]

"We prefer to call it the B. 1.617.2 variant since that is so much more simple to say and remember," Ting replied.

Henry, stop trying to make fetch happen! It's not going to happen!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:27 PM on August 27, 2021 [4 favorites]

Something tells me he's saying that tongue-in-cheek.
posted by Anonymous at 5:16 PM on August 27, 2021

Yeah, I'm not going to cheer Delta for taking money out of worker's pockets.


The vaccine refusers can go to hell. The true pro-worker, pro-people stance is the one that keeps workers alive.
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 3:38 PM on August 29, 2021 [5 favorites]

Yeah, I'm not going to cheer Delta for taking money out of worker's pockets.

Would you rather that they fire them? Or that the plague-rat employees keep spreading Covid to co-workers and airline passengers?
posted by octothorpe at 4:06 PM on August 29, 2021 [3 favorites]

The slow-burn decline of humanity continues apace: MUST SHOW PIC OF YOU AND YOUR HORSE
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:37 AM on August 30, 2021 [2 favorites]

That "must show pic of you and your horse" tweet actually took kind of a cute direction; the original poster was asking "so, do horse owners actually walk around with pictures of themselves and their horses?" and got a crap-ton of unanimous "oh HELL yeah" responses. The best were from people who pointed out that "come on, dog and cat owners have 68 gig's worth of photos of Muffy or Mittens on their phones, you think horse owners are any different?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:06 AM on August 30, 2021 [2 favorites]