How Do We Prepare Boys for Healthy Relationships?
September 29, 2021 11:34 AM Subscribe
"If we care about preparing our boys for healthy relationships, this may be one way to do it—making time and space in school, where so much of their social world exists, to teach them how to name and handle their emotions and solve problems that crop up among friends. Creating a classroom culture where students are expected to think about how other people feel and notice what they need, and to be as earnest about kindness and empathy as they are about academics. Helping them see that while it takes practice to learn how to navigate our inner lives and our social lives, it is something we all can—and should—learn to do." -- an excerpt from "To Raise A Boy" by Emma Brown (the Washington Post reporter who broke the Christine Blasey Ford/Brett Kavanaugh sexual assault story).
How boys suffer from gender stereotypes — author Emma Brown weighs in (CNN):
Emma Brown on how to stop our sons from growing up into monstrous men (Salon)
How To Raise Boys Who Aren't Afraid To Be Vulnerable (HuffPost)
How can we better raise boys? A new book looks at where we’ve gone wrong — and how to fix it (WaPo)
Emma Brown explains why society fails boys just as much as it fails girls (Motherly)
How boys suffer from gender stereotypes — author Emma Brown weighs in (CNN):
"Uncovering [the fact that sexual assault and harassment by boys against other boys is common] was just so profoundly upsetting, and also transformative. Violence against men and women, girls and boys, are tangled up in the same deeply ingrained notions of manhood. Yet, sexual victimization of boys and young men is often left out of the conversation. We cannot dismiss that — or boys' pain in those cases. And we certainly can't solve the problem of violence against women unless we also address violence against boys and men. [...] We tell boys that boys and men are tough, strong, dominant and don't cry. Those messages make it really hard for boys to acknowledge when they've been victimized at all, but particularly sexually. Boys often have trouble recognizing what's happened to them as sexual assault and difficulty getting help. Research has also found links between boys who believe they must live up to standards about being "real" boys or men and those at a greater risk for perpetrating sexual violence against women. These gender norms are harmful for everyone."More on "To Raise A Boy":
Emma Brown on how to stop our sons from growing up into monstrous men (Salon)
How To Raise Boys Who Aren't Afraid To Be Vulnerable (HuffPost)
How can we better raise boys? A new book looks at where we’ve gone wrong — and how to fix it (WaPo)
Emma Brown explains why society fails boys just as much as it fails girls (Motherly)
Eyebrows McGee's classic comment is a gold standard for this kind of discussion.
posted by lalochezia at 11:39 AM on September 29, 2021 [43 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 11:39 AM on September 29, 2021 [43 favorites]
lalochezia, I immediately thought about Eyebrows's comment, as well - thank you for posting it. (Not sure I would have been able to find it.)
I've only looked at the CNN story so far, but it sounds like Brown has given a lot of careful thought to an incredibly important problem. (And those pictures accompanying the CNN story are so great.)
I've been so heartened in recent years to read about grade school curricula on dealing with emotions and respecting other children. I hope Brown's work attracts real attention to the abuse and trauma that boys are suffering and leads to even more support and education to develop children's emotional skills.
I would really like to live in a world where all children are protected, and respected, and helped to be their strongest, happiest selves.
Thank you for posting this, not_the_water. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the links over the coming week.
posted by kristi at 12:05 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've only looked at the CNN story so far, but it sounds like Brown has given a lot of careful thought to an incredibly important problem. (And those pictures accompanying the CNN story are so great.)
I've been so heartened in recent years to read about grade school curricula on dealing with emotions and respecting other children. I hope Brown's work attracts real attention to the abuse and trauma that boys are suffering and leads to even more support and education to develop children's emotional skills.
I would really like to live in a world where all children are protected, and respected, and helped to be their strongest, happiest selves.
Thank you for posting this, not_the_water. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the links over the coming week.
posted by kristi at 12:05 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I often think about this kind of thing.
I remember how, when I was a young boy in 5th grade, having early feelings towards a girl in my class, I got her a special valentine, not one of the box ones that we were expected to give to the other students of the class, but one where I would express, as per what I expected Valentine's Day was supposed to be given the popular imagination, my appreciation of her. This wasn't totally out of the blue, we were pleasant acquaintances, both new kids in the class. I genuinely felt she was beautiful, and smart, and funny.
I'm pretty certain that if you saw it today, you'd go "aww". This was a remarkably innocent gesture, a perhaps slightly too serious "I think you're wonderful, would you be my girlfriend?" Nothing sexual, nothing creepy, a nice card, a genuine emotion, something more than the platitudes of cut-out cards and candy hearts.
It created a certain scandal of the day. She had shown her friends, and it quickly became known that I had feelings toward her. A certain Simpsons-esque scene erupted where the girls quickly came down on me for not being good enough, and the boys came down on me for liking a girl. There was universal scorn and enmity from literally all of my peers, and I was universally the bad guy for having expressed my emotions.
The situation ended when, at the end of the day, the girl in question told me, on the playground, that her mom didn't want her to have a boyfriend - a remarkably tactful deflection. I told her that I understood, having endured humiliation from the situation already and fully understanding that I had exceeded my bounds. This was the end of the story. She was kind to me and did not avoid me while we were in school together for several more years. I never brought up the matter again. Nothing bad happened. Things between us didn't change or escalate.
But, wow, does this story still pain me. Not about this young girl, who handled the situation with a certain amount of 5th grade grace that I could intuit then and understand to this day, and not really about me, a young boy with genuine feelings that I wanted to express given, what I thought, was the socially-sanctioned mechanism for expressing those particular feelings!
I'm not sure any adult knew about this. I knew at the time that it was a white lie that her Mom didn't want her to have a boyfriend, and I accepted it in a disappointed way as a tactful rejection, perhaps the best scenario you could hope from a couple of kids, and one that didn't attract any attention whatsoever from the teachers or school administrators.
What still pains me was the public reaction from my peers, and how I had really become, for a couple of years, a certain kind of pariah from this whole thing. This always struck me as being incredibly ironic given the purported mechanism of Valentine's Day (at least interpreted as my 9 year old self) to express these kinds of emotions.
Adults can say "it's OK to express your emotions" and "it's OK to cry" or... whatever, but the fact of the matter is that kids are judged by the jury of their peers, and whatever has filtered down into their way of thinking is ultimately what every other kid is judged by. I became afraid to be vulnerable not due to the adults in my life, but due to the summary judgement of others my age. To this day I'm not sure what's necessary to prevent this.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 12:42 PM on September 29, 2021 [70 favorites]
I remember how, when I was a young boy in 5th grade, having early feelings towards a girl in my class, I got her a special valentine, not one of the box ones that we were expected to give to the other students of the class, but one where I would express, as per what I expected Valentine's Day was supposed to be given the popular imagination, my appreciation of her. This wasn't totally out of the blue, we were pleasant acquaintances, both new kids in the class. I genuinely felt she was beautiful, and smart, and funny.
I'm pretty certain that if you saw it today, you'd go "aww". This was a remarkably innocent gesture, a perhaps slightly too serious "I think you're wonderful, would you be my girlfriend?" Nothing sexual, nothing creepy, a nice card, a genuine emotion, something more than the platitudes of cut-out cards and candy hearts.
It created a certain scandal of the day. She had shown her friends, and it quickly became known that I had feelings toward her. A certain Simpsons-esque scene erupted where the girls quickly came down on me for not being good enough, and the boys came down on me for liking a girl. There was universal scorn and enmity from literally all of my peers, and I was universally the bad guy for having expressed my emotions.
The situation ended when, at the end of the day, the girl in question told me, on the playground, that her mom didn't want her to have a boyfriend - a remarkably tactful deflection. I told her that I understood, having endured humiliation from the situation already and fully understanding that I had exceeded my bounds. This was the end of the story. She was kind to me and did not avoid me while we were in school together for several more years. I never brought up the matter again. Nothing bad happened. Things between us didn't change or escalate.
But, wow, does this story still pain me. Not about this young girl, who handled the situation with a certain amount of 5th grade grace that I could intuit then and understand to this day, and not really about me, a young boy with genuine feelings that I wanted to express given, what I thought, was the socially-sanctioned mechanism for expressing those particular feelings!
I'm not sure any adult knew about this. I knew at the time that it was a white lie that her Mom didn't want her to have a boyfriend, and I accepted it in a disappointed way as a tactful rejection, perhaps the best scenario you could hope from a couple of kids, and one that didn't attract any attention whatsoever from the teachers or school administrators.
What still pains me was the public reaction from my peers, and how I had really become, for a couple of years, a certain kind of pariah from this whole thing. This always struck me as being incredibly ironic given the purported mechanism of Valentine's Day (at least interpreted as my 9 year old self) to express these kinds of emotions.
Adults can say "it's OK to express your emotions" and "it's OK to cry" or... whatever, but the fact of the matter is that kids are judged by the jury of their peers, and whatever has filtered down into their way of thinking is ultimately what every other kid is judged by. I became afraid to be vulnerable not due to the adults in my life, but due to the summary judgement of others my age. To this day I'm not sure what's necessary to prevent this.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 12:42 PM on September 29, 2021 [70 favorites]
For one brief shining moment in the mid-70s, there was something that was trying to help - the Free To Be You And Me album, a kids' album produced by Marlo Thomas in the wake of the ERA movement. A lot of the attention was focused on the songs about "girl power" and "girls can do everything boys can do" - but there were also a couple songs and stories that addressed boys' emotions as well. One of my friends says he still vividly remembers being struck by footballer Rosey Grier singing a song telling him that "It's Alright To Cry".
Then came a feminist backlash and that wiped all of that away.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on September 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
Then came a feminist backlash and that wiped all of that away.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:00 PM on September 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
I had actually removed a reference to Free to Be You and Me out of my above post. All of my peers and I had seen it - the 1974 TV movie, on 16mm film, almost every year in grade school. I removed the reference because I have no negative feelings towards it, but I'm part of the Free to Be You and Me generation, it had been a certain influence to me in revealing my emotions as a very young man, and I can assure you that it did not help me as a young or teenaged man in any way.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 1:04 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 1:04 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
I can assure you that it did not help me as a young or teenaged man in any way.
That's fair; I was referring more to the attempt being made by the adults to try to help, and adults seeing it as a thing that needed to be addressed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:11 PM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
That's fair; I was referring more to the attempt being made by the adults to try to help, and adults seeing it as a thing that needed to be addressed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:11 PM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have done a shedload of work in my adult (cisgender man) life to be emotionally present, available, and responsive to people around me. What I received as a boy was 100% in opposition to what I'm striving for now - and as I EAT TAPAS said, it was my peer group doing most of the enforcing. As a kid I made peace with letting other people think I was a weird little bird, and they'd leave me alone.
It was probably around college age when I first read the phrase "gentleness is the province of the strong" and longed not just to live that truth for myself, but to see it alive in the world around me. Still longing.
These days, I think about a paradox: The most reliable path to emotional maturity and generosity in cisgender boys and men is for us to de-center ourselves. Which means the work isn't gonna be super visible or obvious for those who don't yet understand what they are seeing. But it was ever thus, I reckon.
posted by sockshaveholes at 1:29 PM on September 29, 2021 [14 favorites]
It was probably around college age when I first read the phrase "gentleness is the province of the strong" and longed not just to live that truth for myself, but to see it alive in the world around me. Still longing.
These days, I think about a paradox: The most reliable path to emotional maturity and generosity in cisgender boys and men is for us to de-center ourselves. Which means the work isn't gonna be super visible or obvious for those who don't yet understand what they are seeing. But it was ever thus, I reckon.
posted by sockshaveholes at 1:29 PM on September 29, 2021 [14 favorites]
I have a pretty bleak outlook on American culture and the direction our society is headed, but I do think that we have made some strides in how we raise boys over the decades. Maybe not universally, but in some areas, at least.
There are things that my father has mentioned as happening when he was young, that even I as a kid in the 80s and 90s found pretty messed-up: friends casually maiming squirrels and birds with BB guns, a friend who had gotten a "cat rifle" as a birthday present, "pranks" involving setting others' shoelaces or pants on fire, kids whose parents beat them shitless on a regular basis, who then beat their siblings, and a whole lot of what we'd now classify as sexual assault ("copping a feel", etc.) that was just written off as normal adolescent behavior.
I earnestly hope that there are things that I considered normal which, when I tell my kid about them down the road, they will find equally horrifying.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:31 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
There are things that my father has mentioned as happening when he was young, that even I as a kid in the 80s and 90s found pretty messed-up: friends casually maiming squirrels and birds with BB guns, a friend who had gotten a "cat rifle" as a birthday present, "pranks" involving setting others' shoelaces or pants on fire, kids whose parents beat them shitless on a regular basis, who then beat their siblings, and a whole lot of what we'd now classify as sexual assault ("copping a feel", etc.) that was just written off as normal adolescent behavior.
I earnestly hope that there are things that I considered normal which, when I tell my kid about them down the road, they will find equally horrifying.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:31 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
I lost count of the times I heard "If you don't quit crying, I'll give you something to cry about." Well into my teens in the 1980s.
posted by JohnFromGR at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by JohnFromGR at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2021 [14 favorites]
Aw man, Free to Be You and Me is still a sore spot for me from grade school when our 5th grade class put on a production of it, dramatizing the album. I had a conflict with our music teacher over the Housework segment and I ended up playing the "lady of the house" who was doing all the cleaning while someone else read the Carol Channing bit about housework and TV.
It wasn't that I played the lady that bugged me, I volunteered for that when the other kids couldn't sell the role, it was, as they say, creative differences over interpreting the character arc that still rankle. I wanted to break the fourth wall and give an exasperated stare to the audience for the repetition in the narrated work and she insisted I just get increasingly harried without acknowledging the narration. A bitter artistic divide in my formative years. Free to be me? I think not.
(And, yeah, I was major pain in the ass as a kid. I guess some parts of our personality never really change.)
posted by gusottertrout at 1:45 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
It wasn't that I played the lady that bugged me, I volunteered for that when the other kids couldn't sell the role, it was, as they say, creative differences over interpreting the character arc that still rankle. I wanted to break the fourth wall and give an exasperated stare to the audience for the repetition in the narrated work and she insisted I just get increasingly harried without acknowledging the narration. A bitter artistic divide in my formative years. Free to be me? I think not.
(And, yeah, I was major pain in the ass as a kid. I guess some parts of our personality never really change.)
posted by gusottertrout at 1:45 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
One of my friends says he still vividly remembers being struck by footballer Rosey Grier singing a song telling him that "It's Alright To Cry"
I didn’t know about that! But he was famous back in the day for his dominant play in the NFL, but also for his unapologetic enjoyment of knitting. I always thought he was an excellent human being.
posted by jamjam at 1:59 PM on September 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
I didn’t know about that! But he was famous back in the day for his dominant play in the NFL, but also for his unapologetic enjoyment of knitting. I always thought he was an excellent human being.
posted by jamjam at 1:59 PM on September 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
@I EAT TAPAS your story sounds very familiar to me, so much so that it could have been my best friend's, from elementary school. My friend's story had one small but IMO major difference however: my friend's parents both knew of his plans, and furthermore they actually ENCOURAGED him to pursue this tactic.
Now having remembered this story, I find myself wondering: what did his parents imagine would happen to him? what reality did they suppose was taking place at the school? Had they never attended elementary school themselves? or did they know what would happen and thought it would be a good life lesson? It's a shame I can't ask them.
posted by some loser at 2:08 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Now having remembered this story, I find myself wondering: what did his parents imagine would happen to him? what reality did they suppose was taking place at the school? Had they never attended elementary school themselves? or did they know what would happen and thought it would be a good life lesson? It's a shame I can't ask them.
posted by some loser at 2:08 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
When I was a boy, my parents used corporal punishment (which on the mild side included forcibly washing my mouth out with soap when I swore). All pretty mild relative to many things I've read about; so much so, that it never even occurred to me until recently that that was still abuse. In turn, I took things out on my little brother. Only a few years ago, he and I were talking. He didn't know that I'd been punished that way and he hadn't been punished that way himself. To me, that kind of punishment was perfectly normal (horrible but normal) because I was a kid and didn't know any better (and most media I consumed reinforced that acceptability of corporal punishment, usually in a humorous light - so, hahaha, that's just the way things are done, hah). Nothing about that makes a sensitive boy (or any boy) ready for normal relationships.
Never mind that later I figured out that I'm trans femme and that I was trying to exist in and treated as if I belonged in a mold that totally didn't fit me.
posted by kokaku at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
Never mind that later I figured out that I'm trans femme and that I was trying to exist in and treated as if I belonged in a mold that totally didn't fit me.
posted by kokaku at 2:25 PM on September 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I was reading The will to change by Bell Hooks a few years back (it's a bummer I wasn't aware of this book when it came out in 2003) which flushed out a few specific memories at age 11-12 where indeed, it was made clear that I was to be denied access to this side of life. The emotional exhaustion from the pandemic is abating a bit here and I'm trying to get back to related self-work, so it's probably time for a re-read, this time with notetaking. The first time through that book was intense to say the least.
posted by MillMan at 2:28 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by MillMan at 2:28 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
On a more serious note to some of the points in the links that I've read so far, that the sheer lack of any kind of guidance on how to interact with peers was a major problem, not least because it was obvious I was somehow different than most of the other kids and didn't fit in easily with them or what the adults expected from me. I wasn't bullied, too stubborn for that, but there was a lot of weirdness, sexually and otherwise from kids and adults, that I didn't have any rules for and couldn't recognize as either right or wrong since it was all I knew. I didn't even know to ask questions about it or what questions I could ask since there was so little talk about what was considered normal behavior, you were just expected to know and be like the other kids. My parents were truly wonderful people, but they didn't really get me and just chalked it up to "smart" or some such, as did the other adults, ignoring all the signs that suggested otherwise.
Instead I had media, TV, movies, books, and everything else I could watch, read, or hear, to act as my surrogate advisors into how the world worked. I knew that media wasn't the truth, so I didn't believe what was said, but I did still pick up values from it all that I wasn't fully aware of until later when I took to looking at media as a faulty reflection of the world, but by then my peer relationships had already skewed towards those who were equally asocial or outside the norm, which was great in they were good friends, but not so great in that still didn't provide a model of the expected norm. I don't know how having a better early understanding of conventional social interactions would have worked for me, but I know not having one at a young age led to further difficulties, so even if I ultimately would have always been distant from the crowd, being able to better understand what the norm in expectations and understanding other people had of things sure would have made getting to my end a lot smoother and maybe I'd even have made a plan instead or winging it the entire way.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:33 PM on September 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
Instead I had media, TV, movies, books, and everything else I could watch, read, or hear, to act as my surrogate advisors into how the world worked. I knew that media wasn't the truth, so I didn't believe what was said, but I did still pick up values from it all that I wasn't fully aware of until later when I took to looking at media as a faulty reflection of the world, but by then my peer relationships had already skewed towards those who were equally asocial or outside the norm, which was great in they were good friends, but not so great in that still didn't provide a model of the expected norm. I don't know how having a better early understanding of conventional social interactions would have worked for me, but I know not having one at a young age led to further difficulties, so even if I ultimately would have always been distant from the crowd, being able to better understand what the norm in expectations and understanding other people had of things sure would have made getting to my end a lot smoother and maybe I'd even have made a plan instead or winging it the entire way.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:33 PM on September 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
I came across a really good acronym for everything that boys aged ten and above need to learn about to have healthy relationships: Sexualisation, Exploitation, Love, Friendship, Intimacy, Education. Selfie.
posted by parmanparman at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2021
posted by parmanparman at 2:57 PM on September 29, 2021
I understand that there's probably a message in presenting six articles about raising boys, all written by women, but is it a useful message?
posted by groda at 3:50 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by groda at 3:50 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
kids are judged by the jury of their peers
which does mean that what's "allowed" is a race to the bottom: the least common denominator. I think the solution is refusing to give that judgement any authority-- hopefully helped by Rosey Grier, your optimistic parents, poetry, or whatever gets you through. This may be the hardest thing we ask young boys to do.
posted by travertina at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
which does mean that what's "allowed" is a race to the bottom: the least common denominator. I think the solution is refusing to give that judgement any authority-- hopefully helped by Rosey Grier, your optimistic parents, poetry, or whatever gets you through. This may be the hardest thing we ask young boys to do.
posted by travertina at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I understand that there's probably a message in presenting six articles about raising boys, all written by women, but is it a useful message?
I chose the articles based on the how well they engaged with the book, not on the author.
posted by not_the_water at 4:43 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
I chose the articles based on the how well they engaged with the book, not on the author.
posted by not_the_water at 4:43 PM on September 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
six articles about raising boys, all written by women
Because previous generations of boys aren’t doing their fair share of raising the new generations, nor writing much about how to do it better.
We complain that boys have too few male role models because they’re mostly raised and taught by women, and we postulate that boys won’t figure out how to care about other people unless they see men doing a deliberate and decent job of it.
But that can’t happen unless grown men get off their duffs and do some quality raising and teaching and nurturing. In order to do that, men need to unlearn the social programming that doing those things is Not Their Area — or that getting better at such things by learning from experts is somehow beneath their dignity if those experts happen to be female.
posted by armeowda at 4:47 PM on September 29, 2021 [18 favorites]
Because previous generations of boys aren’t doing their fair share of raising the new generations, nor writing much about how to do it better.
We complain that boys have too few male role models because they’re mostly raised and taught by women, and we postulate that boys won’t figure out how to care about other people unless they see men doing a deliberate and decent job of it.
But that can’t happen unless grown men get off their duffs and do some quality raising and teaching and nurturing. In order to do that, men need to unlearn the social programming that doing those things is Not Their Area — or that getting better at such things by learning from experts is somehow beneath their dignity if those experts happen to be female.
posted by armeowda at 4:47 PM on September 29, 2021 [18 favorites]
I've been doing some work around negotiation, and it really feels like all relationships are basically a lifelong negotiation. How good you are at negotiating will make or break your relationships. And no one teaches you how to negotiate except for your parents when you're young, and your peers as you grow older, who were themselves taught by their parents.
So if your parents never really negotiated with you as a kid - they were authoritarian, disciplinarian, enforced their will through fiat (rights) or violence and fear (power) - that becomes the subconscious default approach that lies beneath everything you do in your future negotiations.
I think the point where we "grow up" might be turning point where we realise that real life works not by rights or power, but by interests - and this is where the much maligned work politics comes into play. At school or college, you can still "win" on merit, studying hard, scoring high marks - and attaining your objective by right. Once you enter the workplace... a lot of that gets thrown out the window. It's all about interests: figuring out what the other person wants and needs, and figuring out what you can offer them for something you want in return (a promotion, better pay, etc).
That's the moment where the shock and disillusionment with "real life" kicks in for some people, who've never had to engage in interest-based negotiation their entire life, where everything before was about rights and power.
Now imagine that same framework applied to relationships, which are essentially a series of interest based negotiations: where do we want to eat? Do you want to have sex? Where should we go on a holiday? Do we want a dog? Trying to apply a rights-based or power-based negotiation style is not appropriate - you undermine the other parties value in the negotiation, erode the value of their offer, question their competence, make threats, flatter them, appeal to their sympathy.
Every cultural background is different, of course. I went to an all-boys school, and most "negotiations" were solved with violence. My ability to secure my rights (not to be touched in a way I didn't like, or to protect my personal belongings) hinged on my ability to cause sufficient pain to the other person to make them stop: and to be immediately aggressive, even pre-emptively strike first as deterrence. There's a big difference between "fighting" someone to show dominance - like you often see in the movies - versus immediately going for permanent damage, gouging eyes, breaking fingers, biting, etc. And if you complained to the teachers, well, discipline was enforced by public caning in front of the school during assembly.
Even our role models: our "heroes" in movies or fantasy stories: they often overcome, or win, by sheer strength (power) or simply because good must prevail (rights). How often do we have role models who win by negotiating (interests)? I don't think it's a coincidence that I was magnetically drawn to Ender's Game in my later years of high school. Why can't there be a fantasy series of someone whose super power is their incredible ability at building consensus and finding win win solutions for everyone?
I will be the very first to say that I have been a crappy person, and that every friendship / relationship I've had, I have made mistakes, and there have been things I've wished that I could have done better. But that's just like work: at some point, you're ready to move up into management, senior management, and be responsible for the wellbeing of others, but until you do, you just wing it, make mistakes, and learn from it. Often, you're thrust into that position before you're ready - I agreed to an advancement plan, but they promoted me ahead of time due to business disruption. I can truly say that it's only in my late 30s that I decided internally that I had learned enough to manage myself, my partner, and my direct reports who work for me.
But yes, all that is to say, given my experience of life, that this would be my starting point if you asked me how to raise boys. Role model a relationship where it's not always about rights and power except in specific circumstances (touching a hot stove, crossing the road) and trying to expose them to the right role models in fantasy and stories.
posted by xdvesper at 6:59 PM on September 29, 2021 [17 favorites]
So if your parents never really negotiated with you as a kid - they were authoritarian, disciplinarian, enforced their will through fiat (rights) or violence and fear (power) - that becomes the subconscious default approach that lies beneath everything you do in your future negotiations.
I think the point where we "grow up" might be turning point where we realise that real life works not by rights or power, but by interests - and this is where the much maligned work politics comes into play. At school or college, you can still "win" on merit, studying hard, scoring high marks - and attaining your objective by right. Once you enter the workplace... a lot of that gets thrown out the window. It's all about interests: figuring out what the other person wants and needs, and figuring out what you can offer them for something you want in return (a promotion, better pay, etc).
That's the moment where the shock and disillusionment with "real life" kicks in for some people, who've never had to engage in interest-based negotiation their entire life, where everything before was about rights and power.
Now imagine that same framework applied to relationships, which are essentially a series of interest based negotiations: where do we want to eat? Do you want to have sex? Where should we go on a holiday? Do we want a dog? Trying to apply a rights-based or power-based negotiation style is not appropriate - you undermine the other parties value in the negotiation, erode the value of their offer, question their competence, make threats, flatter them, appeal to their sympathy.
Every cultural background is different, of course. I went to an all-boys school, and most "negotiations" were solved with violence. My ability to secure my rights (not to be touched in a way I didn't like, or to protect my personal belongings) hinged on my ability to cause sufficient pain to the other person to make them stop: and to be immediately aggressive, even pre-emptively strike first as deterrence. There's a big difference between "fighting" someone to show dominance - like you often see in the movies - versus immediately going for permanent damage, gouging eyes, breaking fingers, biting, etc. And if you complained to the teachers, well, discipline was enforced by public caning in front of the school during assembly.
Even our role models: our "heroes" in movies or fantasy stories: they often overcome, or win, by sheer strength (power) or simply because good must prevail (rights). How often do we have role models who win by negotiating (interests)? I don't think it's a coincidence that I was magnetically drawn to Ender's Game in my later years of high school. Why can't there be a fantasy series of someone whose super power is their incredible ability at building consensus and finding win win solutions for everyone?
I will be the very first to say that I have been a crappy person, and that every friendship / relationship I've had, I have made mistakes, and there have been things I've wished that I could have done better. But that's just like work: at some point, you're ready to move up into management, senior management, and be responsible for the wellbeing of others, but until you do, you just wing it, make mistakes, and learn from it. Often, you're thrust into that position before you're ready - I agreed to an advancement plan, but they promoted me ahead of time due to business disruption. I can truly say that it's only in my late 30s that I decided internally that I had learned enough to manage myself, my partner, and my direct reports who work for me.
But yes, all that is to say, given my experience of life, that this would be my starting point if you asked me how to raise boys. Role model a relationship where it's not always about rights and power except in specific circumstances (touching a hot stove, crossing the road) and trying to expose them to the right role models in fantasy and stories.
posted by xdvesper at 6:59 PM on September 29, 2021 [17 favorites]
I’m in the thick of this right now with a shy first grader. I’m not there on the playground coaching him. The teachers aren’t terrible dialed in on this either (they’re not in the playground and fairly they are more interested in the teaching / classroom). So the shallow feedback is “he looks happy to me!” At best I coach him very much after the fact at bedtime thorns and roses discussion, or after a play date, or with his siblings. Like… this is the hard work of parenting y’all. But I long for more support at school because my parent spidey sense is firing that there’s a nascent issue but what am I gonna do be a playground lurker helicopter parent? Dang this is hard.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:53 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:53 PM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Roots of Empathy! I admire them so much: I think the program model is about as incisive as can be. You’re not looking at cartoon faces of emotions, or reading vignettes - you’re dealing with a real live human, but one that is small and vulnerable and adorable and incapable of deceit or malice. It’s a fantastic recipe for learning about how our emotions often arise in dynamic response to others’, and how often feelings reflect met and unmet needs.
I also wish that SEL were standard in elementary and middle schools, if not high schools as well. For folks who are socialized to attend to and prioritize other people’s feelings, girls and beyond, this kind of skill-building also would mean learning how to attend to and prioritize our OWN. For everyone, how to use our words and *ask* other people what they are feeling, rather than projecting or falling down rabbit holes trying to figure it out. How to be with other people who are having a feel; how to ask what people need and figure out what we need when we’re in a fell; how it is no one’s job to fix another person’s feelings. Fwooo. These are all goals for me, and I have been out of high school for twenty years! My heart shines thinking about a new generation of kids with more of a head start.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:49 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I also wish that SEL were standard in elementary and middle schools, if not high schools as well. For folks who are socialized to attend to and prioritize other people’s feelings, girls and beyond, this kind of skill-building also would mean learning how to attend to and prioritize our OWN. For everyone, how to use our words and *ask* other people what they are feeling, rather than projecting or falling down rabbit holes trying to figure it out. How to be with other people who are having a feel; how to ask what people need and figure out what we need when we’re in a fell; how it is no one’s job to fix another person’s feelings. Fwooo. These are all goals for me, and I have been out of high school for twenty years! My heart shines thinking about a new generation of kids with more of a head start.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:49 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I remember a lot of emotional education as a young boy, but it was how to decide, manipulate, and harm. How to get over. Mostly on young women. There were negative physical consequences for failing to emotionally manipulate and subdue young women. I just didn't care about getting beaten up as much as many boys my age
posted by eustatic at 10:38 PM on September 29, 2021
posted by eustatic at 10:38 PM on September 29, 2021
nor writing much about how to do it better
There are plenty of men writing about it (and doing it) if you take the time to look. A google search for "men emotions" turns up multiple links, many written by men. Fatherly is an entire site devoted to parenting for men.
I recommend also reading some of the posts in the menslib subreddit (a feminist friendly subreddit that discusses issues pertinent to men) to gain more insight and help question the, frankly, patriarchal framing that only women can care about raising children and/or are capable of expressing emotion.
I'll add a gentle request to please refrain from statements like "get off their duffs" which veer uncomfortably close towards toxic masculinity informed requests to "man up".
posted by Hutch at 6:56 AM on September 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are plenty of men writing about it (and doing it) if you take the time to look. A google search for "men emotions" turns up multiple links, many written by men. Fatherly is an entire site devoted to parenting for men.
I recommend also reading some of the posts in the menslib subreddit (a feminist friendly subreddit that discusses issues pertinent to men) to gain more insight and help question the, frankly, patriarchal framing that only women can care about raising children and/or are capable of expressing emotion.
I'll add a gentle request to please refrain from statements like "get off their duffs" which veer uncomfortably close towards toxic masculinity informed requests to "man up".
posted by Hutch at 6:56 AM on September 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'll counter with a gentle rebuttal: "get off one's duff" is not gendered. People of all genders have asses. Women are at least as likely to be called lazy for sitting on them in a domestic setting.
To that end, when women ask men to do their share of emotional labor, it's generally because men are performing the privileged helplessness that exempts them from "women's work." That's a prime example of toxic masculinity, not a failure to perform it.
In other news, Fatherly knows that half its audience is female. It's counting on that audience to do the work of spoon-feeding its content to dads. It's still good that it exists, obviously, but it's got a ways to go before it can say men are putting in an equal effort.
The subreddit is news to me, and it looks like some valuable discussion is taking place. 100% agree that the idea men can't do these things is patriarchal B.S. My point was, the idea that both fathers and sons can only learn from male role models is also patriarchal B.S.
posted by armeowda at 8:12 AM on September 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
To that end, when women ask men to do their share of emotional labor, it's generally because men are performing the privileged helplessness that exempts them from "women's work." That's a prime example of toxic masculinity, not a failure to perform it.
In other news, Fatherly knows that half its audience is female. It's counting on that audience to do the work of spoon-feeding its content to dads. It's still good that it exists, obviously, but it's got a ways to go before it can say men are putting in an equal effort.
The subreddit is news to me, and it looks like some valuable discussion is taking place. 100% agree that the idea men can't do these things is patriarchal B.S. My point was, the idea that both fathers and sons can only learn from male role models is also patriarchal B.S.
posted by armeowda at 8:12 AM on September 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
I understand that there's probably a message in presenting six articles about raising boys, all written by women, but is it a useful message?
....why would such a message not be useful if it were written by a women?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
....why would such a message not be useful if it were written by a women?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
We have a son. We'd have loved a daughter as much, but I do remember thinking it was going to be easier to raise a boy. And in most ways, it is. Everybody knows: patriarchy lowers the stakes for boys, stacks the cards in their favor and against girls, in a million ways big and small. The world really feels like it wants to crush girls.
BUT, if it matters to you as a parent whether you raise a decent human being or not, it is its own kind of challenge to raise a boy. Because, y'all: huge swaths of this world are set up to let boys feel comfortable growing up into being total shitheels. Elaborate mechanisms are in place to make sure that if your son does grow up to be a shitheel, minimal if any consequences will accrue. Expectations are so low that many people basically expect your son to be kind of a shitheel, and are ready to defend him for it, as a matter of principle, just a natural-born right to be a shitheel that they think your son is owed, whether they know him or not. People raised by shitheel men are out there looking for their own shitheel men, to raise little shitheel sons with.
Even if you emphatically do not want to raise your son to be a shitheel, you've got to try and do so despite the baggage you picked up from growing up surrounded by shitheel men, from people who thought it was their solemn duty to enable and defer to shitheel men. If you yourself are a man, you'll need to try so very hard to try not to be the shitheel the world probably wanted you to be. Even so, you will have to acknowledge that even doing your best, to some degree or other you're still probably kind of a shitheel. And then you'll have to hope you can help your kid turn out better anyway.
As a parent of a boy, you will need to regularly interrupt carefree moments in your son's life to coach them on how they may not be carefree for girls and women, and then work with him on what he can do about it. It will often feel like the entire world is willing to let your son treat his emotions like the weather, just a thing that happens that people in the surrounding area will need to deal with. You will have to teach him to name these emotions, to be able to feel them, to be able to talk about them, and to think at least as much about how he is affecting people around him as what he feels himself. The world is specifically constructed to encourage him to speak whenever he wants, to take up as much space as he wants, and you will need to teach him that these opportunities do not fall from the sky, they are in fact often taken from women. You will have to teach him that as pure as his heart might be, he will still need to learn to shut up and make space. His friendships will by default, be largely undemanding, but you will still have to teach him that it is okay to ask for much more than that, and help him be ready to offer more than that. Activities, social situations, peer pressure will conspire to convince him that girls as an unknowable, alien class of creatures he will only need engage with if he desires them or wants something from them. You'll need to help him see girls and women as individuals he can be friends with and value. Otherwise, he will learn these lessons later, via the act of repeatedly hurting and disappointing his romantic partners. So many things will be set up to be easy for him and you will have to teach him that the only decent way to live is to let them be hard anyway.
And you'll just have to do this because it's the right thing to do. Because if you don't, nothing will seem to happen as a result. Oh, stuff would happen. He'd be a shitty partner, a bad father, an unreliable friend, a lazy, entitled employee, a selfish neighbor. But it's all set up so that can feel like a bill someone else will have to pay, years from now. And people will forgive him for it even then.
So you do the work, as well as you can, trying to raise a decent boy. And it is hard, not so much because of what he will endure, but because of what other people will endure if you don't get it right.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2021 [61 favorites]
BUT, if it matters to you as a parent whether you raise a decent human being or not, it is its own kind of challenge to raise a boy. Because, y'all: huge swaths of this world are set up to let boys feel comfortable growing up into being total shitheels. Elaborate mechanisms are in place to make sure that if your son does grow up to be a shitheel, minimal if any consequences will accrue. Expectations are so low that many people basically expect your son to be kind of a shitheel, and are ready to defend him for it, as a matter of principle, just a natural-born right to be a shitheel that they think your son is owed, whether they know him or not. People raised by shitheel men are out there looking for their own shitheel men, to raise little shitheel sons with.
Even if you emphatically do not want to raise your son to be a shitheel, you've got to try and do so despite the baggage you picked up from growing up surrounded by shitheel men, from people who thought it was their solemn duty to enable and defer to shitheel men. If you yourself are a man, you'll need to try so very hard to try not to be the shitheel the world probably wanted you to be. Even so, you will have to acknowledge that even doing your best, to some degree or other you're still probably kind of a shitheel. And then you'll have to hope you can help your kid turn out better anyway.
As a parent of a boy, you will need to regularly interrupt carefree moments in your son's life to coach them on how they may not be carefree for girls and women, and then work with him on what he can do about it. It will often feel like the entire world is willing to let your son treat his emotions like the weather, just a thing that happens that people in the surrounding area will need to deal with. You will have to teach him to name these emotions, to be able to feel them, to be able to talk about them, and to think at least as much about how he is affecting people around him as what he feels himself. The world is specifically constructed to encourage him to speak whenever he wants, to take up as much space as he wants, and you will need to teach him that these opportunities do not fall from the sky, they are in fact often taken from women. You will have to teach him that as pure as his heart might be, he will still need to learn to shut up and make space. His friendships will by default, be largely undemanding, but you will still have to teach him that it is okay to ask for much more than that, and help him be ready to offer more than that. Activities, social situations, peer pressure will conspire to convince him that girls as an unknowable, alien class of creatures he will only need engage with if he desires them or wants something from them. You'll need to help him see girls and women as individuals he can be friends with and value. Otherwise, he will learn these lessons later, via the act of repeatedly hurting and disappointing his romantic partners. So many things will be set up to be easy for him and you will have to teach him that the only decent way to live is to let them be hard anyway.
And you'll just have to do this because it's the right thing to do. Because if you don't, nothing will seem to happen as a result. Oh, stuff would happen. He'd be a shitty partner, a bad father, an unreliable friend, a lazy, entitled employee, a selfish neighbor. But it's all set up so that can feel like a bill someone else will have to pay, years from now. And people will forgive him for it even then.
So you do the work, as well as you can, trying to raise a decent boy. And it is hard, not so much because of what he will endure, but because of what other people will endure if you don't get it right.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2021 [61 favorites]
got a ways to go before it can say men are putting in an equal effort
Nobody is claiming this.
What I am saying is that a diversity of viewpoints that includes men would be better than only hearing from women. And nobody has said that women's perspectives are not valuable. The objection is to only hearing women's perspectives.
posted by Hutch at 11:19 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nobody is claiming this.
What I am saying is that a diversity of viewpoints that includes men would be better than only hearing from women. And nobody has said that women's perspectives are not valuable. The objection is to only hearing women's perspectives.
posted by Hutch at 11:19 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
P.S. Quickly adding, gentle rebuttal received and you are right, I was being overly sensitive.
posted by Hutch at 11:29 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Hutch at 11:29 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Speaking of diverse viewpoints, DirtyOldTown is representing the guys very nicely right here on the blue. Flagged as fantastic, sir.
posted by armeowda at 4:20 PM on September 30, 2021
posted by armeowda at 4:20 PM on September 30, 2021
Posts like these are hard for me to read because of my own experience with my ex-boyfriend. He was vulnerable and in touch with his emotions and was comfortable breaking gender norms. But he wasn't in touch with my emotions and didn't really let me be vulnerable. In some sense, this made what was already a one-sided relationship even more one-sided, since so much of the attention was on him. And these qualities in my ex did not prevent a sexual assault. If anything, it made it more likely, since he was better able to prioritize his desires and emotions over mine.
I wish more of these discussions involved how men can learn to also make other people feel comfortable and support them in a way that makes them feel like you're invested in their success and to be aware of how they're feeling. I know that for myself, I've learned that reading minds is much easier than people say it is. But it is a skill to be developed, and one that's not really taught very well to men.
posted by chernoffhoeffding at 10:49 AM on October 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I wish more of these discussions involved how men can learn to also make other people feel comfortable and support them in a way that makes them feel like you're invested in their success and to be aware of how they're feeling. I know that for myself, I've learned that reading minds is much easier than people say it is. But it is a skill to be developed, and one that's not really taught very well to men.
posted by chernoffhoeffding at 10:49 AM on October 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
But he wasn't in touch with my emotions and didn't really let me be vulnerable. In some sense, this made what was already a one-sided relationship even more one-sided, since so much of the attention was on him.
That's actually a good point - just being "in touch" with your emotions doesn't automatically make you care about others. Just like (in my analogy) being good at negotiation makes the process much smoother, and dramatically increases the likelihood that both parties can come to an optimal solution that satisfies their needs, but it doesn't help in a situation when one party is completely unreasonable to begin with. Eg, if a buyer only wants to pay $400,000 for a house that a seller wants to sell for $600,000, they can never reach an agreement: but arguably, being an experienced negotiator means that you identify this mismatch early and get out, not wasting any further time and effort on it.
It's like at work, if you need to fire someone, there's definitely better or worse ways to go about it, but they end up fired anyway.
Your question seems to be, how do we make someone be less selfish, more altruistic, more invested in the happiness of others.
posted by xdvesper at 6:49 PM on October 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's actually a good point - just being "in touch" with your emotions doesn't automatically make you care about others. Just like (in my analogy) being good at negotiation makes the process much smoother, and dramatically increases the likelihood that both parties can come to an optimal solution that satisfies their needs, but it doesn't help in a situation when one party is completely unreasonable to begin with. Eg, if a buyer only wants to pay $400,000 for a house that a seller wants to sell for $600,000, they can never reach an agreement: but arguably, being an experienced negotiator means that you identify this mismatch early and get out, not wasting any further time and effort on it.
It's like at work, if you need to fire someone, there's definitely better or worse ways to go about it, but they end up fired anyway.
Your question seems to be, how do we make someone be less selfish, more altruistic, more invested in the happiness of others.
posted by xdvesper at 6:49 PM on October 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by not_the_water at 11:35 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]