Trolling for American hearts and minds
October 1, 2021 1:09 PM Subscribe
Troll farms reached 140 million Americans a month on Facebook before 2020 election, internal report shows, MIT Technology Review, Karen Hao, September 16, 2021 [alternate link]. In the run-up to the 2020 election, Facebook’s most popular pages for Christian and Black American content were run by Eastern European troll farms. These pages reached nearly half of all Americans through Facebook’s platform design and engagement-hungry algorithm.
I wonder how many people from the targeted groups actually followed some of these pages versus people outside of them. Because Facebook groups called things like "My Baby Daddy Aint Shit" or "Savage Hood Memes" is some real old-school /r/blackpeopletwitter shit. That is, they sound like groups that would appeal a lot to the sort of white people who like pointing and laughing at Black people under the guise of appreciating "Black humor".
posted by Anonymous at 1:48 PM on October 1, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 1:48 PM on October 1, 2021
Good grief social media.
At this point, why would anyone choose to spend time on Facebook if they didn’t have to for their job? It’s an aggressively toxic environment with zero accountability.
posted by darkstar at 1:56 PM on October 1, 2021 [14 favorites]
At this point, why would anyone choose to spend time on Facebook if they didn’t have to for their job? It’s an aggressively toxic environment with zero accountability.
posted by darkstar at 1:56 PM on October 1, 2021 [14 favorites]
At this point, why would anyone choose to spend time on Facebook if they didn’t have to for their job?
Because there are a lot of people one only has contact with there, and persuading them to join one's Discord/Mastodon/TinyLetter have come to naught, and IMing photos of one's toddler/cat to them individually would take too much time and look weird?
posted by acb at 2:02 PM on October 1, 2021 [39 favorites]
Because there are a lot of people one only has contact with there, and persuading them to join one's Discord/Mastodon/TinyLetter have come to naught, and IMing photos of one's toddler/cat to them individually would take too much time and look weird?
posted by acb at 2:02 PM on October 1, 2021 [39 favorites]
Because, to quote an old description, Facebook is a trap, and your friends and family are the bait.
Unlike some, I guess, I keep a really tight lid on it to limit that feed, using Facebook Purity, disabling any applications and not following any pages, so stories like this always fascinate me, about how much else is going on.
posted by Rash at 2:02 PM on October 1, 2021 [31 favorites]
Unlike some, I guess, I keep a really tight lid on it to limit that feed, using Facebook Purity, disabling any applications and not following any pages, so stories like this always fascinate me, about how much else is going on.
posted by Rash at 2:02 PM on October 1, 2021 [31 favorites]
At this point, why would anyone choose to spend time on Facebook if they didn’t have to for their job? It’s an aggressively toxic environment with zero accountability.
Seriously? Because that's where people are and a lot of people don't have a sense or anything about toxicity. I mean, I agree, but there is nothing to indicate that that's anything other than an activist position so far (i.e. not mainstream)
Think of it this way: nobody FPPed the incredible "Facebook Files" package the WSJ ran all last week.
posted by rhizome at 2:08 PM on October 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
Seriously? Because that's where people are and a lot of people don't have a sense or anything about toxicity. I mean, I agree, but there is nothing to indicate that that's anything other than an activist position so far (i.e. not mainstream)
Think of it this way: nobody FPPed the incredible "Facebook Files" package the WSJ ran all last week.
posted by rhizome at 2:08 PM on October 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm active on facebook-- I seem to be pretty good at connecting with decent people and avoiding the mass-produced toxicity.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:40 PM on October 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:40 PM on October 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
When you're down and out
When you're on the street
When evening falls so hard
I will comfort you
I'll take your part
Oh, when darkness comes
And pain is all around
Like a bridge over troubled water
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on October 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
When you're on the street
When evening falls so hard
I will comfort you
I'll take your part
Oh, when darkness comes
And pain is all around
Like a bridge over troubled water
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on October 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was thinking about putting together a post on The Facebook Files, but everything past the landing page is paywalled pretty hard, and I wasn't sure what to link to.
The lead reporter did an interview on Fresh Air (with transcript) which is a pretty good introduction. The landing page has excerpts, and you can use those to find summaries of the articles in the series on other sites (e.g., Leaked documents reveal the special rules Facebook uses for 5.8M VIPs (Ars Technica), Political parties told Facebook its News Feed pushed them into ‘more extreme positions’ (The Verge)). But it's hard to discuss the WSJ's journalism if they won't let people read it.
posted by ectabo at 2:51 PM on October 1, 2021 [27 favorites]
The lead reporter did an interview on Fresh Air (with transcript) which is a pretty good introduction. The landing page has excerpts, and you can use those to find summaries of the articles in the series on other sites (e.g., Leaked documents reveal the special rules Facebook uses for 5.8M VIPs (Ars Technica), Political parties told Facebook its News Feed pushed them into ‘more extreme positions’ (The Verge)). But it's hard to discuss the WSJ's journalism if they won't let people read it.
posted by ectabo at 2:51 PM on October 1, 2021 [27 favorites]
What is it like, doing this job? Are these just some guys in tracksuits who get their entire ideas about America from Facebook, together with maybe some movies and/or racist websites? Or are they more or less normal young professionals who might have gone into data entry if things had been different?
posted by Countess Elena at 3:02 PM on October 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 3:02 PM on October 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
>Facebook groups called things like "My Baby Daddy Aint Shit" or "Savage Hood Memes" [...] sound like groups that would appeal a lot to the sort of white people who like pointing and laughing at Black people under the guise of appreciating "Black humor".
Yup. I suspect it's a similar audience for the troll groups "designed to target" Native Americans. The naming conventions seem more suited to, e.g., aging Scotch-Irish Americans who decorate their houses with "dreamcatchers" made in China.
posted by armeowda at 3:13 PM on October 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yup. I suspect it's a similar audience for the troll groups "designed to target" Native Americans. The naming conventions seem more suited to, e.g., aging Scotch-Irish Americans who decorate their houses with "dreamcatchers" made in China.
posted by armeowda at 3:13 PM on October 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I was thinking about putting together a post on The Facebook Files, but everything past the landing page is paywalled pretty hard, and I wasn't sure what to link to.
Reasonable! And I have to admit that most of my consumption of it has been via Twitter, particularly Jason Kint.
sound like groups that would appeal a lot to the sort of white people who like pointing and laughing at Black people under the guise of appreciating "Black humor".
I have a dummy FB account that has done nothing for 10 years other than wait for me to test an app with it. It gets notification emails for "suggested groups," and let me tell you it's been a roller coaster! Let's see, in May we saw
��FucK_uR_FeeLinGs��
Deep feelings
English Chat
DEAD Inside🦋
LAUGH And FORGET YOUR PASSWORD😂😂😂
WallStreetBets
Tears can't speak.. :'(
English Speaking Partners
Muslim Single Ladies
💔Ｉｔ ｈｕｒｔｓ 💔
🌼English Conversation🌼
Marriage with Muslims in Europe
Islamic Quotes and Reminders
A mix of negative emotions, immigrant language barriers, Islam (and Islam-only. There's never been a Jewish Quotes or Lutheran Singles group suggested) and ethnic...camaraderie. At some point it switched more to The Far Side and "Memes World," but like I said, up and down and never really good.
posted by rhizome at 3:55 PM on October 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Reasonable! And I have to admit that most of my consumption of it has been via Twitter, particularly Jason Kint.
sound like groups that would appeal a lot to the sort of white people who like pointing and laughing at Black people under the guise of appreciating "Black humor".
I have a dummy FB account that has done nothing for 10 years other than wait for me to test an app with it. It gets notification emails for "suggested groups," and let me tell you it's been a roller coaster! Let's see, in May we saw
��FucK_uR_FeeLinGs��
Deep feelings
English Chat
DEAD Inside🦋
LAUGH And FORGET YOUR PASSWORD😂😂😂
WallStreetBets
Tears can't speak.. :'(
English Speaking Partners
Muslim Single Ladies
💔Ｉｔ ｈｕｒｔｓ 💔
🌼English Conversation🌼
Marriage with Muslims in Europe
Islamic Quotes and Reminders
A mix of negative emotions, immigrant language barriers, Islam (and Islam-only. There's never been a Jewish Quotes or Lutheran Singles group suggested) and ethnic...camaraderie. At some point it switched more to The Far Side and "Memes World," but like I said, up and down and never really good.
posted by rhizome at 3:55 PM on October 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
>What is it like, doing this job? ... more or less normal young professionals ... data entry
This is young professional data entry work -- it's the ultimate bullshit job: propping up the USA advertising industry with lies that are intended to cause chaos and create expensive degradation rather than systemic failure, getting by on money that busts international sanctions by coming from blockaded nation states via the volatile speculation on cryptocurrency.
The tasks: tend to the thousands of computers set up to flood social media, repairing the system when FB changes things and you need the bots to hit different buttons or when FB gets the ban-hammer out, then build more accounts to replace the ones reported as fake.
The first rule of Project Mayhem is...
>Are these just some guys in tracksuits ... [or] are they more or less normal young professionals..?
Why not both? I acted professional in a tracksuit for a lot of 2020...
(There's a stereotype about '...in tracksuits' so I'm not endorsing the professional/unprofessional labelling based on what people wear, 'professional' no longer refers to a professional qualification proving you're capable of a clerical or knowledge-worker job.)
posted by k3ninho at 4:13 PM on October 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is young professional data entry work -- it's the ultimate bullshit job: propping up the USA advertising industry with lies that are intended to cause chaos and create expensive degradation rather than systemic failure, getting by on money that busts international sanctions by coming from blockaded nation states via the volatile speculation on cryptocurrency.
The tasks: tend to the thousands of computers set up to flood social media, repairing the system when FB changes things and you need the bots to hit different buttons or when FB gets the ban-hammer out, then build more accounts to replace the ones reported as fake.
The first rule of Project Mayhem is...
>Are these just some guys in tracksuits ... [or] are they more or less normal young professionals..?
Why not both? I acted professional in a tracksuit for a lot of 2020...
(There's a stereotype about '...in tracksuits' so I'm not endorsing the professional/unprofessional labelling based on what people wear, 'professional' no longer refers to a professional qualification proving you're capable of a clerical or knowledge-worker job.)
posted by k3ninho at 4:13 PM on October 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I use Facebook almost exclusivley to buy and sell guitar pedals. I assume that's what everyone else uses it for.
Are there other kinds of content on it?
posted by signal at 4:14 PM on October 1, 2021 [14 favorites]
Are there other kinds of content on it?
posted by signal at 4:14 PM on October 1, 2021 [14 favorites]
I recently saw a Polish drama - The Hater - on Netflix - one of the characters works in an “Eastern European troll farm”. Very eye opening, highly recommended.
posted by andreinla at 4:46 PM on October 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by andreinla at 4:46 PM on October 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Still second guess myself sometimes about dropping off FB, but it's one of the reasons I read Metafilter avidly now. Much better use of my time.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:53 PM on October 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:53 PM on October 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
What is it like, doing this job?
• Inside The 'Propaganda Kitchen' – A Former Russian 'Troll Factory' Employee Speaks Out, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty [USA-funded], Dmitry Volchek, January 29, 2021:
More background information:
• Internet Research Agency – Russian company engaged in online influence operations, Wikipedia, (last updated September 1, 2021). Note this article’s subtopic Timeline of the Internet Research Agency interference in United States elections (2014-2020), and the related WP article Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections.
• Robert Mueller investigation: What is a Russian troll farm?, USA TODAY, Mike Snider, Feb. 16, 2018.
• The Agency (55 Savushkina Street, the last known home of the Internet Research Agency) – From a nondescript office building in St. Petersburg, Russia, an army of well-paid “trolls” has tried to wreak havoc all around the Internet — and in real-life American communities., The New York Times, Adrian Chen, June 2, 2015 [WebArchive.org retrieval].
posted by cenoxo at 5:11 PM on October 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
• Inside The 'Propaganda Kitchen' – A Former Russian 'Troll Factory' Employee Speaks Out, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty [USA-funded], Dmitry Volchek, January 29, 2021:
…The money wasn’t bad, but the work was demanding: posting up to 120 comments a day, over an 11-hour shift -- in chat rooms, on websites, and in social-media profiles belonging to specific Russian-language news outlets such as the independent newspaper Novaya Gazeta and RFE/RL’s Russian Service.Meh, it’s a living.
“There were people who really flew at [the work] with enthusiasm, and then some who came to work just realizing that all they were doing was nonsense,” Sergei K., a former employee of a Russian company that became known as the “Russian troll factory,” told RFE/RL in an interview [interview in Russian, see Google’s English translation]…
More background information:
• Internet Research Agency – Russian company engaged in online influence operations, Wikipedia, (last updated September 1, 2021). Note this article’s subtopic Timeline of the Internet Research Agency interference in United States elections (2014-2020), and the related WP article Timeline of Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections.
• Robert Mueller investigation: What is a Russian troll farm?, USA TODAY, Mike Snider, Feb. 16, 2018.
• The Agency (55 Savushkina Street, the last known home of the Internet Research Agency) – From a nondescript office building in St. Petersburg, Russia, an army of well-paid “trolls” has tried to wreak havoc all around the Internet — and in real-life American communities., The New York Times, Adrian Chen, June 2, 2015 [WebArchive.org retrieval].
posted by cenoxo at 5:11 PM on October 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
I snapped after the WSJ surveys and started feeling physically ill looking at Facebook. It was the sex trafficking article that convinced me. Also the general theme that Facebook knows internally about the evil they are doing, the executives are reading these really very well written reports about it. And choosing not to act because it would cost them money.
This new report about troll farms is a similar thing. Another internal report, really excellently researched. And ignored. They let this shit fester on their site through the 2020 election cycle. To be a tiny bit fair they have been trying to rein in some of the worst of it. But not nearly effectively enough, and without enough commitment.
Fuck all that. I resolved to quit Facebook.
Then I realized I'm captive to Facebook. It is my primary means for connecting with the gay community in the small town I live in. It is also my only real way to stay in touch with a lot of people from earlier in my life, the cliché high school friends. Literally today, Facebook is the only place where I can discuss the death of a beloved professor with fellow college alumni. It's really good at this kind of social connection and it's important to me! If I just quit Facebook I lose access to all that.
I'm very upset about being captive this way. (And please don't tell me I can "just use IRC to stay in touch!" or whatever.). Currently I'm trying to shift as much social contact outside of Facebook as possible. This process will take years. In the meantime I'm only logging in only very briefly to check in on the few things that are uniquely there. I've already long-since quarantined Facebook to its own Firefox container, as if it were a disease-spreading corpse.
posted by Nelson at 5:40 PM on October 1, 2021 [31 favorites]
This new report about troll farms is a similar thing. Another internal report, really excellently researched. And ignored. They let this shit fester on their site through the 2020 election cycle. To be a tiny bit fair they have been trying to rein in some of the worst of it. But not nearly effectively enough, and without enough commitment.
Fuck all that. I resolved to quit Facebook.
Then I realized I'm captive to Facebook. It is my primary means for connecting with the gay community in the small town I live in. It is also my only real way to stay in touch with a lot of people from earlier in my life, the cliché high school friends. Literally today, Facebook is the only place where I can discuss the death of a beloved professor with fellow college alumni. It's really good at this kind of social connection and it's important to me! If I just quit Facebook I lose access to all that.
I'm very upset about being captive this way. (And please don't tell me I can "just use IRC to stay in touch!" or whatever.). Currently I'm trying to shift as much social contact outside of Facebook as possible. This process will take years. In the meantime I'm only logging in only very briefly to check in on the few things that are uniquely there. I've already long-since quarantined Facebook to its own Firefox container, as if it were a disease-spreading corpse.
posted by Nelson at 5:40 PM on October 1, 2021 [31 favorites]
I left Facebook around the time of gamergate, so before the 2016 elections. And I really have lost touch with almost everyone except very close friends. On the upside, I didn’t have to watch half my friends and family become lost in the Q hole, or fight with anyone about vaccines, so there’s that.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:45 PM on October 1, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:45 PM on October 1, 2021 [18 favorites]
Zuck and Kushner made a deal to avoid fact-checking political speech in exchange for light-touch regulation, according to a book.
You'll remember Mark Zuckerberg as having declaring Elizabeth Warren (and any politician proposing any degree of regulation) as existential threats a few months before that deal was allegedly minted.
iMessage works just fine. You can start a little thread with your ex-Facebook friends and talk about TV or sports or games or whatever.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:49 PM on October 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
You'll remember Mark Zuckerberg as having declaring Elizabeth Warren (and any politician proposing any degree of regulation) as existential threats a few months before that deal was allegedly minted.
iMessage works just fine. You can start a little thread with your ex-Facebook friends and talk about TV or sports or games or whatever.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:49 PM on October 1, 2021 [10 favorites]
iMessage does not work fine as a Facebook replacement. Saying so is condescending.
iMessage does not work at all for me. I don't own any Apple devices. I literally cannot use Apple's proprietary messaging product. I'm not some unique snowflake here; among phones Android has 50% market share in the US and 80% in the world.
Text messaging does work fine. Signal is my favorite. SMS, Telegram, Messenger, or WhatsApp. Oops, maybe not those last two. Anyway text messaging does work for me and a few friends; I use Signal that way and it's pretty good.
Text messaging does not work great for groups. It's OK for small intimate groups, but awkward. It's bad for groups of 100 people with folks coming in and out. It's bad for any sort of archive or rich media display. It doesn't work at all for, say, the Nevada County Peeps group with its 50,000 members. That group is a mess but it's also useful for staying in touch with local gossip. And occasionally urgent news, like fire evacuations.
Facebook is uniquely good at a certain kind of social relationship. It's so good that they've captured me, someone who is an expert at social media and skeptical of Facebook since its founding. Unfortunately Facebook is also a tool of evil run by evil executives. I'm currently caught in their trap.
posted by Nelson at 6:14 PM on October 1, 2021 [31 favorites]
iMessage does not work at all for me. I don't own any Apple devices. I literally cannot use Apple's proprietary messaging product. I'm not some unique snowflake here; among phones Android has 50% market share in the US and 80% in the world.
Text messaging does work fine. Signal is my favorite. SMS, Telegram, Messenger, or WhatsApp. Oops, maybe not those last two. Anyway text messaging does work for me and a few friends; I use Signal that way and it's pretty good.
Text messaging does not work great for groups. It's OK for small intimate groups, but awkward. It's bad for groups of 100 people with folks coming in and out. It's bad for any sort of archive or rich media display. It doesn't work at all for, say, the Nevada County Peeps group with its 50,000 members. That group is a mess but it's also useful for staying in touch with local gossip. And occasionally urgent news, like fire evacuations.
Facebook is uniquely good at a certain kind of social relationship. It's so good that they've captured me, someone who is an expert at social media and skeptical of Facebook since its founding. Unfortunately Facebook is also a tool of evil run by evil executives. I'm currently caught in their trap.
posted by Nelson at 6:14 PM on October 1, 2021 [31 favorites]
I don't say this casually or callously; I've lost touch with a lot of friends, and even missed friends funerals because their family thought Facebook meant everybody. But you can always walk away.
Yes it costs, yes it can hurt, but you have a choice.
posted by mhoye at 6:38 PM on October 1, 2021 [30 favorites]
Yes it costs, yes it can hurt, but you have a choice.
posted by mhoye at 6:38 PM on October 1, 2021 [30 favorites]
How is this not a top national security issue? We need to get a lot more aggressive with these social media companies when it comes getting then to crack down on these troll farms.
posted by interogative mood at 7:09 PM on October 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 7:09 PM on October 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
I think it’s a cost/benefit analysis. You have to personally decide if what you get out of it is worth the cost to yourself and to others. I know where the math falls for me.
I don’t see the new baby pics. But then again, no one saw those when I was the new baby, because the means to share every single thing didn’t exist. I can see for some communities how hard it can be to find like-minded people without something like Facebook, but not being in constant contact is not nearly as bad as it sounds once you get used to it again.
But like I said: you need to do the math for yourself. No one else can tell you if cutting off that specific platform is worth it or not.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:14 PM on October 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don’t see the new baby pics. But then again, no one saw those when I was the new baby, because the means to share every single thing didn’t exist. I can see for some communities how hard it can be to find like-minded people without something like Facebook, but not being in constant contact is not nearly as bad as it sounds once you get used to it again.
But like I said: you need to do the math for yourself. No one else can tell you if cutting off that specific platform is worth it or not.
posted by caution live frogs at 7:14 PM on October 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't mean to give grief to people trapped by FB. My s/o is still on board and it's the only way that I hear about births and funerals and other life events. She still has some positive interactions, but it's also accelerated the estrangement of lifelong friends and family. For me, it's a net negative and I'd just as soon pretend it's the 1800s and receive a postcard a year after the body is buried.
But there has to be a certain percentage of dissenters, or it will eat everything.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:22 PM on October 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
But there has to be a certain percentage of dissenters, or it will eat everything.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:22 PM on October 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Once everyone sceptical flees, the people left behind on facebok will be that much easier to convince and manipulate. And we live in a democracy. Telling people to just stop using Facebook won't solve the underlying political problems.
posted by subdee at 8:03 PM on October 1, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by subdee at 8:03 PM on October 1, 2021 [16 favorites]
I believe the Biden administration is combatting this by following the money. They're trying to cut off the flow of money, especially cryptocurrency, from the IRA to these troll farms. Facebook should be doing more too, but maybe the reality is that once you take the "advertising" money that's really political influence money out of the equation, they're no longer a profitable company.
posted by subdee at 8:05 PM on October 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 8:05 PM on October 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Or you don't know anyone else
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:46 AM on October 2, 2021
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:46 AM on October 2, 2021
Cryptocurrency from the IRA?
posted by latkes at 4:15 AM on October 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 4:15 AM on October 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
The comments in this thread about our own personal choices around facebook use are the trap we've been led into through years of being told our personal consumption habits are relevant to influencing public policy. It's the long shadow of 50 Simple Things to Save the Earth or something... We cannot change policy or shut down dangerous corporate practices through our personal consumption choices. By all means, we should reduce or stop our facebook use if we have other options for social connection. Our mental health and cognitive well being will likely improve. But only big, powerful action can stop facebook. Our best bet is strong, meaningful, enforceable goverment regulation. Another option is sabotage.
posted by latkes at 4:23 AM on October 2, 2021 [38 favorites]
posted by latkes at 4:23 AM on October 2, 2021 [38 favorites]
Another option is sabotage.
Or sheer ridiculousness:
posted by cenoxo at 6:26 AM on October 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Or sheer ridiculousness:
Facebook removes Russian disinformation network that claimed COVID vaccines turn people into chimpanzees, New York Daily News, Jessica Schladebeck, Aug 11, 2021There’s hope for humanity yet: see also The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot, BBC Trending, July 25, 2021.
Facebook revealed it has removed hundreds of accounts linked to a viral disinformation scheme primarily operating in Russia, which also relied on social media influencers to push phony claims about COVID vaccines — including that certain shots turn people into chimpanzees.
A network of 65 Facebook accounts and 243 Instagram accounts was traced back to Fazze, a U.K.-registered marketing firm mostly run out of Russia [more about Fazze at RFE/RL], for violating its policy on foreign interference, which prohibits inauthentic behavior on behalf of a foreign entity. “This operation targeted audiences primarily in India, Latin America and, to a much lesser extent, the United States,” according to a report published Tuesday [PDF] by the social media company.
Facebook described the anti-vaccine campaign as a “disinformation laundromat,” pushing false claims across platforms including Reddit, Medium and Change.org, as well as Facebook and Instagram, where phony accounts were used to amplify the claims. Influencers across several social media platforms were also approached by the marketing agency and asked to share the content with their followers.
…
Most of the campaign fell flat, with the majority of the posts receiving zero likes before they were scrubbed from the internet.
posted by cenoxo at 6:26 AM on October 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Cryptocurrency from the IRA?
US sanctions cryptocurrency addresses linked to Russian cyberactivities, Bleeping Computer, Lawrence Abrams, April 18, 2021.
posted by cenoxo at 6:55 AM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
US sanctions cryptocurrency addresses linked to Russian cyberactivities, Bleeping Computer, Lawrence Abrams, April 18, 2021.
posted by cenoxo at 6:55 AM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've never been on Facebook, and I've definitely missed out on a lot because of it, including not finding out that someone close to me had lost a parent. I'm just not in touch with most people from earlier in my life, and I don't know what's happening with distant relatives unless my sisters tell me. I continually toy with the idea of setting up an account because two clubs I'm involved with mostly use it to contact members. But so far I manage by lurking.
Cal Newport writes about how people point out what he's missing by not being on social media, and he acknowledges that he does miss a lot (link is to blog post - for more, see Newport's book Deep Work). But he also points out that people adopt new technology, focusing on what it offers, without deciding whether the downside is worth it. The reason I never joined Facebook was because I saw it as a big corporation "owning" my personal life, and that seemed like a bad thing to me. I've noted that a lot of people act as if Facebook is a public service rather than a business trying to make money - then they're surprised when it acts like a money-making business.
There's absolutely a cost to not participating, and I don't want to downplay that. But life without Facebook is possible.
posted by FencingGal at 7:28 AM on October 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Cal Newport writes about how people point out what he's missing by not being on social media, and he acknowledges that he does miss a lot (link is to blog post - for more, see Newport's book Deep Work). But he also points out that people adopt new technology, focusing on what it offers, without deciding whether the downside is worth it. The reason I never joined Facebook was because I saw it as a big corporation "owning" my personal life, and that seemed like a bad thing to me. I've noted that a lot of people act as if Facebook is a public service rather than a business trying to make money - then they're surprised when it acts like a money-making business.
There's absolutely a cost to not participating, and I don't want to downplay that. But life without Facebook is possible.
posted by FencingGal at 7:28 AM on October 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
My girlfriend's family, all contributing to the Covid counts, did Science! And tested if fridge magnets really would stick on her due to the vaccine. Unfortunately, the verdict was that God had protected her, (From magnetic forces?), not.... That anything else made more sense.
posted by Jacen at 7:30 AM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 7:30 AM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Walmart’s page reached the second-largest US audience at 100 million.Wait, what? I've got nothing against people who shop at walmart. But, what possible information could anyone want to find on the walmart facebook page? I'd have assumed visiting a physical store's facebook page would be as popular as calling the phone numbers printed on boxes of cookies. It's clear I don't know what facebook is actually used for.
posted by eotvos at 7:38 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I appreciate folks acknowledging the personal cost of not participating in Facebook. Mhoye is right: we do have a choice. But the choice to leave has significant costs. I also appreciate latkes' point that individuals don't have power over Facebook. There needs to be larger force brought to bear although political regulation has its own problems.
But there's still a question of individual choice and morality. I was not exaggerating when I said I felt actual nausea on reading the story about Facebook's failure to control people using their platform to sell women into slavery. I'm very uneasy about my personal engagement with this evil thing.
Anyway... Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar Over Instagram’s Effect on Teens. A followup on what's going on inside Facebook in response to this latest set of press. Talks specifically about how it's been a bad week for "Youth Group" that makes products for children. The decision this week to delay Instagram Kids is directly related to the press.
Not that I believe any of this internal discussion is sincere. The company is just trying to figure out how to get the press to shut up long enough so they can continue growing their business. They internally refer to 10 year olds as a “valuable but untapped audience.” No way are they going to stop "acquisition" because some reporters were mean to them.
posted by Nelson at 8:03 AM on October 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
But there's still a question of individual choice and morality. I was not exaggerating when I said I felt actual nausea on reading the story about Facebook's failure to control people using their platform to sell women into slavery. I'm very uneasy about my personal engagement with this evil thing.
Anyway... Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar Over Instagram’s Effect on Teens. A followup on what's going on inside Facebook in response to this latest set of press. Talks specifically about how it's been a bad week for "Youth Group" that makes products for children. The decision this week to delay Instagram Kids is directly related to the press.
Not that I believe any of this internal discussion is sincere. The company is just trying to figure out how to get the press to shut up long enough so they can continue growing their business. They internally refer to 10 year olds as a “valuable but untapped audience.” No way are they going to stop "acquisition" because some reporters were mean to them.
posted by Nelson at 8:03 AM on October 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’m sure people were complaining when they invented the telephone too, since it made communication so much easier than what had existed beforehand.
posted by Melismata at 8:16 AM on October 2, 2021
posted by Melismata at 8:16 AM on October 2, 2021
The comments in this thread about our own personal choices around facebook use are the trap we've been led into through years of being told our personal consumption habits are relevant to influencing public policy. It's the long shadow of 50 Simple Things to Save the Earth or something... We cannot change policy or shut down dangerous corporate practices through our personal consumption choices. By all means, we should reduce or stop our facebook use if we have other options for social connection. Our mental health and cognitive well being will likely improve. But only big, powerful action can stop facebook. Our best bet is strong, meaningful, enforceable goverment regulation.
The problem is that belief contains the same kind of contradiction. Why would government enact regulation if the only pressure is coming from 'individual choice"? That's the same dynamic, the individual is completely powerless and has to accede to corporate interests at all turns by continuing to use their product unless the government steps in and regulates that use to save me, but why should the government listen to the lowly individual when they too are faced with corporate influence of wealth and power, magnified by the same consumers who allegedly want them stopped? The thing missing of course is the idea of collective action. The same reason unions have lost so much of their place in the societal balance is that too many people no longer believe in the possibility of collective action, only corporate and, maybe, government power, so battles aren't even waged because they are assumed lost before being started in the favor of maintaining the ease of the status quo. Not a great path to change of any sort.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:17 AM on October 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
The problem is that belief contains the same kind of contradiction. Why would government enact regulation if the only pressure is coming from 'individual choice"? That's the same dynamic, the individual is completely powerless and has to accede to corporate interests at all turns by continuing to use their product unless the government steps in and regulates that use to save me, but why should the government listen to the lowly individual when they too are faced with corporate influence of wealth and power, magnified by the same consumers who allegedly want them stopped? The thing missing of course is the idea of collective action. The same reason unions have lost so much of their place in the societal balance is that too many people no longer believe in the possibility of collective action, only corporate and, maybe, government power, so battles aren't even waged because they are assumed lost before being started in the favor of maintaining the ease of the status quo. Not a great path to change of any sort.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:17 AM on October 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been on Facebook since the early days and I follow family and close friends, local businesses, and a few groups I have determined are sane. The few times I've run into shitty posts I've reported it as spam/disinformation, and I rarely ever see that stuff now. Twitter is the same way -- I almost never see anything trolling or offensive. And, frankly, my Reddit front page is perfectly sane as well.
It's easy to just blame the trolling sites, but the reason things show up on your timeline is because people you want to see stuff from are sharing stuff they like. Social media doesn't work if people aren't sharing things they like, and your problem is partly that you want to see things shared by people who like that stuff. I've unfriended friends/family to stop the bullshit, because that's how you clean up your feed.
what possible information could anyone want to find on the walmart facebook page?
I regularly get prompted by Facebook with an auto-generated post: "your friends {name}, {name}, {name}, and 25 others like Wal-Mart [LIKE BUTTON]". People may have never actually gone to WalMart's page but Facebook got them to like it anyway.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:18 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's easy to just blame the trolling sites, but the reason things show up on your timeline is because people you want to see stuff from are sharing stuff they like. Social media doesn't work if people aren't sharing things they like, and your problem is partly that you want to see things shared by people who like that stuff. I've unfriended friends/family to stop the bullshit, because that's how you clean up your feed.
what possible information could anyone want to find on the walmart facebook page?
I regularly get prompted by Facebook with an auto-generated post: "your friends {name}, {name}, {name}, and 25 others like Wal-Mart [LIKE BUTTON]". People may have never actually gone to WalMart's page but Facebook got them to like it anyway.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:18 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I told my main friend group (among family and other friends) in March of this year that I would remove myself from the FB family of social media effective immediately (and why I was doing so) in a group message. Apparently, they don’t get it and have kept trying over these past several months to get in touch with me via Messenger, and then remember I’ve removed my accounts. They’re annoyed with me because I’m making it “harder” for the group to stay in touch because someone has to text me separately for get-togethers and so on. The last time I saw them all, two weeks ago, I reiterated that I would not be using FB products ever again, and again told them why. I’ve directed them to the WSJ story, too.
Only one of them, among these women who I’ve been friends with for 15 years, understands. I’m appalled.
posted by droplet at 8:44 AM on October 2, 2021 [6 favorites]
Only one of them, among these women who I’ve been friends with for 15 years, understands. I’m appalled.
posted by droplet at 8:44 AM on October 2, 2021 [6 favorites]
Facebook's entire business model is treating people like things to be exploited. It is an intentionally addictive propaganda machine designed to influence people on a deeply personal level, and the people who run it are fully aware that it has an overall destructive effect on both individuals and society as whole. As a for-profit concern it is fundamentally evil, and should not exist. The undeniable utility of networked connections should be treated as exactly what it is, a utility, and the rest -- all of the the skinner box fuckery, all of the algorithmic manipulation to maximize "engagement," all of the advertising - - should be nuked from orbit. No individual can do that, but every person who quits Facebook reduces Facebook's power to avoid regulation and influence politics. And you do have a choice.
And in a just world Zuckerberg would be facing jail time.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:46 AM on October 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
And in a just world Zuckerberg would be facing jail time.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:46 AM on October 2, 2021 [10 favorites]
I’m sure people were complaining when they invented the telephone too
An alternate history where ordinary Americans would receive, several times an hour, a phone call from a Soviet agent?
posted by romanb at 9:51 AM on October 2, 2021 [22 favorites]
An alternate history where ordinary Americans would receive, several times an hour, a phone call from a Soviet agent?
posted by romanb at 9:51 AM on October 2, 2021 [22 favorites]
Yesterday I tried to look up an organization in South Sudan that sounded interesting, but it’s only on FB and since I’m not and won’t sign up, I couldn’t see it. It reminded me that for too much of the world, FB *is* the internet. I don’t blame the organization for not having a website - the people they need to communicate with wouldn’t see it.
So that’s one problem. Another is that, while it’s true FB caters to people who are receptive to toxic messages, who play an active role in embracing and spreading them and that’s a problem all by itself, they have designed a propaganda propagator that hands crooks and white supremacists and genocidal regimes an incredibly effective microphone that rewards and encourages toxicity. It’s not the entire cause of what it reaps, but it is responsible for amping it up to an extraordinary and dangerous level with zero accountability.
posted by zenzenobia at 10:48 AM on October 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
So that’s one problem. Another is that, while it’s true FB caters to people who are receptive to toxic messages, who play an active role in embracing and spreading them and that’s a problem all by itself, they have designed a propaganda propagator that hands crooks and white supremacists and genocidal regimes an incredibly effective microphone that rewards and encourages toxicity. It’s not the entire cause of what it reaps, but it is responsible for amping it up to an extraordinary and dangerous level with zero accountability.
posted by zenzenobia at 10:48 AM on October 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'll reiterate again that we live in a democracy. All of ya'll can remove yourself from Facebook (I personally have an account but never log in) but it won't save you from the political knock-on effects of half of all Americans being exposed to a foreign influence campaign.
The other thing we don't talk about as much is all the US govt influence campaigns that are also running on Facebook and targeting other citizens of other countries. If Facebook were to change their algorithmic feed calculations to value trustworthiness over engagement or reduce posts from state actors who copy-paste their talking points, it might also make those campaigns less effective.
posted by subdee at 10:52 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
The other thing we don't talk about as much is all the US govt influence campaigns that are also running on Facebook and targeting other citizens of other countries. If Facebook were to change their algorithmic feed calculations to value trustworthiness over engagement or reduce posts from state actors who copy-paste their talking points, it might also make those campaigns less effective.
posted by subdee at 10:52 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
This is what the MIT technology review is talking about, instead of playing whackamole with individually identified "bad" accounts and only removing the ones that reach a certain level of notoriety, they could change their model to promote individual accounts that are less likely to be troll farms bc they aren't copy-pasting their content. Or news accounts with a higher "trustworthiness" score. It's human nature to like and share the conspiracy theories but it's also a deliberate choice Facebook made to ignore the internal reports and let their network be used this way.
posted by subdee at 11:03 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by subdee at 11:03 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I’m sure people were complaining when they invented the telephone too, since it made communication so much easier than what had existed beforehand.
Were they necessarily wrong? Since no one here lived before telephones, we have no idea what was lost when they became common. And they've given us robocalls and new ways to scam people. I say this not to argue against telephones, but against the assumption that a technology is good because it became ubiquitous. People objected to nuclear weapons as well - we're stuck with them now. That doesn't mean they're a good or that we should accept all new technology because people once objected to technology that we now take for granted.
Newport talks about an Amish community that considered whether members could have cars. At first, they did permit it, and what they found was that people started going for drives instead of spending time with their neighbors - and they decided that the damage to the community was greater than the benefit of allowing them. This is not even addressing the environmental disaster we're living with right now partially because at some point, society made a collective decision that individuals should have cars (I know some people live happily and well without them - but in many areas, it's extremely difficult if not impossible because life in the US at least is set up for people who have cars).
Capitalism needs to convince us that we absolutely must have whatever new toy comes along. The idea that we should embrace all of it because people once objected to something now ubiquitous like telephones robs us of the ability to make real decisions about what technology is worth the downside - and there's always a downside.
posted by FencingGal at 11:09 AM on October 2, 2021 [9 favorites]
Were they necessarily wrong? Since no one here lived before telephones, we have no idea what was lost when they became common. And they've given us robocalls and new ways to scam people. I say this not to argue against telephones, but against the assumption that a technology is good because it became ubiquitous. People objected to nuclear weapons as well - we're stuck with them now. That doesn't mean they're a good or that we should accept all new technology because people once objected to technology that we now take for granted.
Newport talks about an Amish community that considered whether members could have cars. At first, they did permit it, and what they found was that people started going for drives instead of spending time with their neighbors - and they decided that the damage to the community was greater than the benefit of allowing them. This is not even addressing the environmental disaster we're living with right now partially because at some point, society made a collective decision that individuals should have cars (I know some people live happily and well without them - but in many areas, it's extremely difficult if not impossible because life in the US at least is set up for people who have cars).
Capitalism needs to convince us that we absolutely must have whatever new toy comes along. The idea that we should embrace all of it because people once objected to something now ubiquitous like telephones robs us of the ability to make real decisions about what technology is worth the downside - and there's always a downside.
posted by FencingGal at 11:09 AM on October 2, 2021 [9 favorites]
All media have forms of exploitation and harm they cause. There's a lot written about this topic. Mass media in particular: newspapers, radio, television all used to spread evil. In that sense Facebook and social media in general fit into a long, well analyzed framework how media affect communities. Telephone less so although there's certainly plenty of political fuckery that's done via the mass medium of robocalls.
But Facebook is different as a medium in important ways. It is truly global. And it is highly personalized; a propaganda message hits differently when it's forwarded to you by your family members. Also it's incredibly efficient and profitable. All those facts create an extra ethical and moral obligation on the part of the creators of Facebook to be sure their systems are not used for too much evil. Facebook isn't just failing to do that, they are choosing to not even meaningfully try and saying "not my problem, we're too busy making money here."
As an example of a simple measure Facebook could take, I think the WhatsApp limits on viral spread is very interesting. Basically users are not allowed to forward a message to more than one person at a time. Independent of the content of the message. It's a deliberate artificial break on sharing stuff. And it seems to work. This approach makes more sense for WhatsApp than Facebook; WhatsApp is more of a 1-to-1 medium where Facebook is more group oriented. But you could imagine similar throttling making a big difference in Facebook. (And yes, I'm well aware of the irony of highlighting a Facebook-owned company's solution to a problem while complaining about Facebook.)
posted by Nelson at 11:16 AM on October 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
But Facebook is different as a medium in important ways. It is truly global. And it is highly personalized; a propaganda message hits differently when it's forwarded to you by your family members. Also it's incredibly efficient and profitable. All those facts create an extra ethical and moral obligation on the part of the creators of Facebook to be sure their systems are not used for too much evil. Facebook isn't just failing to do that, they are choosing to not even meaningfully try and saying "not my problem, we're too busy making money here."
As an example of a simple measure Facebook could take, I think the WhatsApp limits on viral spread is very interesting. Basically users are not allowed to forward a message to more than one person at a time. Independent of the content of the message. It's a deliberate artificial break on sharing stuff. And it seems to work. This approach makes more sense for WhatsApp than Facebook; WhatsApp is more of a 1-to-1 medium where Facebook is more group oriented. But you could imagine similar throttling making a big difference in Facebook. (And yes, I'm well aware of the irony of highlighting a Facebook-owned company's solution to a problem while complaining about Facebook.)
posted by Nelson at 11:16 AM on October 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
I left FB five years ago and there has been very little social cost to me. My strong friendships remained strong and I’ve been able to successfully build new relationships that don’t rely on Facebook. In the intervening years many people I know have quit or have accounts that lie dormant. It’s just not a big impediment for people in my milieu to not be on FB.
I recently asked my young teen if he was interested in getting a Facebook account and laughed and said “why?!” No one he knows in his age group has a FB account or has any interest in getting one.
I think a big part of this is generational. Facebook is clearly a place for old people at this point, at least in the US. Most of the Boomers and Xers I know rely on FB as a hub for their social activity and can’t imagine life without it. Kids have no interest. This probably points to how FB will wither as a cultural touchstone as younger generations view it as akin to Yahoo message boards. Doesn’t help with the current misinformation problem but does provide a path forward by simply encouraging kids to never join.
posted by scantee at 11:29 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
I recently asked my young teen if he was interested in getting a Facebook account and laughed and said “why?!” No one he knows in his age group has a FB account or has any interest in getting one.
I think a big part of this is generational. Facebook is clearly a place for old people at this point, at least in the US. Most of the Boomers and Xers I know rely on FB as a hub for their social activity and can’t imagine life without it. Kids have no interest. This probably points to how FB will wither as a cultural touchstone as younger generations view it as akin to Yahoo message boards. Doesn’t help with the current misinformation problem but does provide a path forward by simply encouraging kids to never join.
posted by scantee at 11:29 AM on October 2, 2021 [3 favorites]
And here's another take on the topic:
Facebook thrives on criticism of disinformation.
When advertisers hear that Facebook posts can slide into people's feeds, past their critical faculties, and poison their brains, they like it.
posted by subdee at 11:43 AM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Facebook thrives on criticism of disinformation.
When advertisers hear that Facebook posts can slide into people's feeds, past their critical faculties, and poison their brains, they like it.
posted by subdee at 11:43 AM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think the personal choice to resist Facebook has an effect where other boycotts do not because of the network effect. If 1% refuse to buy beans, the bean company loses 1% of revenue. But a social network company has certain opportunities that only exist at certain % of users actively using the service. Denying them your data stream, and the interaction of your data with your friends' data, denies them those opportunities.
I'm not saying everyone has to do this if it ruins their life, but for those that have the least to lose from not participating, I think it has an effect. I don't think the anti-trust cavalry is coming any time soon.
And yes, I'm one of those stubborn people that still uses Mozilla, ask me how that's working out :P
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:47 PM on October 2, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm not saying everyone has to do this if it ruins their life, but for those that have the least to lose from not participating, I think it has an effect. I don't think the anti-trust cavalry is coming any time soon.
And yes, I'm one of those stubborn people that still uses Mozilla, ask me how that's working out :P
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:47 PM on October 2, 2021 [6 favorites]
I think a big part of this is generational. Facebook is clearly a place for old people at this point, at least in the US. Most of the Boomers and Xers I know rely on FB as a hub for their social activity and can’t imagine life without it. Kids have no interest. This probably points to how FB will wither as a cultural touchstone as younger generations view it as akin to Yahoo message boards.Ask them about Instagram next – that’s why Facebook paid so much for them. This problem won’t go away on its own any more than we’ve solved pollution or monopolies by waiting for internal inefficiencies to weaken a company.
posted by adamsc at 5:35 PM on October 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yesterday I tried to look up an organization in South Sudan that sounded interesting, but it’s only on FB and since I’m not and won’t sign up, I couldn’t see it. It reminded me that for too much of the world, FB *is* the internet. I don’t blame the organization for not having a website - the people they need to communicate with wouldn’t see it.
Yep, this is key. FB is indeed 'the internet' for many services in the Middle East—I can think of a number of restaurants in Ramallah and Beirut, for example, that only exist on FB. Is easy enough for them to dump their info onto the platform.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yep, this is key. FB is indeed 'the internet' for many services in the Middle East—I can think of a number of restaurants in Ramallah and Beirut, for example, that only exist on FB. Is easy enough for them to dump their info onto the platform.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's basically impossible to solve a systemic issue through individual action. You can reduce impacts of the systemic problems with contemporary social media on yourself by opting out of using them. But the problems will still be there. They have to be solved with collective action leading to regulation that forces change on unwilling megamonopolies. And how do you organize collectively? Why, through social media, which is where people gather and how they connect today.
I mean, you could try going door to door and organizing a new social movement completely face-to-face, or through 1970s-style phone trees, but I imagine that would strike typical people today as about as outré as requiring participants to learn to communicate in Morse code. I engage in public education and organizing work, and trying to do that without using social media . . . there's a reason almost everyone uses them today, despite widespread concern and ambivalence. For many using Facebook (and Twitter/Instagram/TikTok/Discord/etc.), the costs on most days feel distant or abstract, while the benefits of being able to connect with both friends and communities are concrete and immediate.
I'm glad that there are MeFites who have made themselves happier by abstaining from the large social media platforms! I'm also glad that there are people who have generated hope for themselves by living off the electric grid, or who have saved their peace of mind in protecting themselves from their heightened Covid risk by continuing to isolate at home. Safeguarding yourself by opting out of damaging systems and circumstances when that is possible for you is good self-care (if sadly often a privilege). But it does little if anything to solve the systemic problem--and we are all living interconnected lives, as human beings. Facebook's still pushing troll posts to the masses, and climate change proceeds apace, and the unvaccinated continue to fill hospitals and generate new Covid variants and cough on us umasked when we can't avoid going to the drug store (ask me how I know).
I know you can only control yourself, you can't control other people, let alone giant corporations--as an individual. That's where collective action and regulation come in. I also know we're all burnt out and pessimistic about governmental gridlock and and social divisions paralyzing attempts to produce social change. But however worn out we may feel, the fact remains that our personal abstentions from using Facebook, or smartphones, or processed foods, or stepping outside our homes, don't save the world. If you're able to avoid participating in something you find harmful, great! But if you do, please, take good care not to fall into the trap of victim-blaming those who can't, by asserting that if everyone just wised up and abstained as you do, the social problem would go away. . .
posted by DrMew at 8:39 PM on October 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
I mean, you could try going door to door and organizing a new social movement completely face-to-face, or through 1970s-style phone trees, but I imagine that would strike typical people today as about as outré as requiring participants to learn to communicate in Morse code. I engage in public education and organizing work, and trying to do that without using social media . . . there's a reason almost everyone uses them today, despite widespread concern and ambivalence. For many using Facebook (and Twitter/Instagram/TikTok/Discord/etc.), the costs on most days feel distant or abstract, while the benefits of being able to connect with both friends and communities are concrete and immediate.
I'm glad that there are MeFites who have made themselves happier by abstaining from the large social media platforms! I'm also glad that there are people who have generated hope for themselves by living off the electric grid, or who have saved their peace of mind in protecting themselves from their heightened Covid risk by continuing to isolate at home. Safeguarding yourself by opting out of damaging systems and circumstances when that is possible for you is good self-care (if sadly often a privilege). But it does little if anything to solve the systemic problem--and we are all living interconnected lives, as human beings. Facebook's still pushing troll posts to the masses, and climate change proceeds apace, and the unvaccinated continue to fill hospitals and generate new Covid variants and cough on us umasked when we can't avoid going to the drug store (ask me how I know).
I know you can only control yourself, you can't control other people, let alone giant corporations--as an individual. That's where collective action and regulation come in. I also know we're all burnt out and pessimistic about governmental gridlock and and social divisions paralyzing attempts to produce social change. But however worn out we may feel, the fact remains that our personal abstentions from using Facebook, or smartphones, or processed foods, or stepping outside our homes, don't save the world. If you're able to avoid participating in something you find harmful, great! But if you do, please, take good care not to fall into the trap of victim-blaming those who can't, by asserting that if everyone just wised up and abstained as you do, the social problem would go away. . .
posted by DrMew at 8:39 PM on October 2, 2021 [12 favorites]
Text messaging does not work great for groups.
Keybase does.
posted by flabdablet at 9:18 PM on October 2, 2021
Keybase does.
posted by flabdablet at 9:18 PM on October 2, 2021
The reason I never joined Facebook was because I saw it as a big corporation "owning" my personal life, and that seemed like a bad thing to me.
When Facebook was just starting up, and every second person I knew was getting invitations in their email inboxes sent out by Facebook after some upstream rube had (perhaps not fully understanding what they were doing) just given Facebook their email contacts list, I had a huge amount of trouble understanding why so many people seemed so utterly oblivious of good netiquette.
I should really not have been surprised. The distinction between To: and Cc: and Bcc: had already been lost on most people for some years by that point, so the idea that a contacts list was privileged information and that therefore blasting it all over the universe constituted a severe breach of trust was already doomed to obsolescence.
But I was right, goddammit. Facebook was exploitatively evil - manifestly so - from Day 1, and over the years my own instinctive gut revulsion against having anything to do with it has stood my mental health in good stead.
Without exception, everybody I know who spends more time engaging with Facebook than I do suffers from more and worse anxiety than I do. Every. Single. One. And sure, correlation is not causation and sure, engagement with Facebook might be more caused by anxiety than causative of it; but it sure as hell doesn't do anything to fix it.
posted by flabdablet at 10:16 PM on October 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
When Facebook was just starting up, and every second person I knew was getting invitations in their email inboxes sent out by Facebook after some upstream rube had (perhaps not fully understanding what they were doing) just given Facebook their email contacts list, I had a huge amount of trouble understanding why so many people seemed so utterly oblivious of good netiquette.
I should really not have been surprised. The distinction between To: and Cc: and Bcc: had already been lost on most people for some years by that point, so the idea that a contacts list was privileged information and that therefore blasting it all over the universe constituted a severe breach of trust was already doomed to obsolescence.
But I was right, goddammit. Facebook was exploitatively evil - manifestly so - from Day 1, and over the years my own instinctive gut revulsion against having anything to do with it has stood my mental health in good stead.
Without exception, everybody I know who spends more time engaging with Facebook than I do suffers from more and worse anxiety than I do. Every. Single. One. And sure, correlation is not causation and sure, engagement with Facebook might be more caused by anxiety than causative of it; but it sure as hell doesn't do anything to fix it.
posted by flabdablet at 10:16 PM on October 2, 2021 [11 favorites]
I'm trying to imagine a social and civic circle where everyone is like "yes, Keybase, that is the social media we all use". Perhaps all the parties are PGP key signing parties. PGP key signing weddings.
posted by Nelson at 6:07 AM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 6:07 AM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Whistle-Blower to Accuse Facebook of Contributing to Jan. 6 Riot, Memo Says. A preview of the 60 Minutes show broadcasting tonight. This is a different story than the linked story in the post here about troll farms, also different from the WSJ series.
The whistle-blower, whose identity has not been publicly disclosed, planned to accuse the company of relaxing its security safeguards for the 2020 election too soon after Election Day, which then led it to be used in the storming of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, according to the internal memo obtained by The New York Times.This story comes from some more Facebook PR fuckery, btw. The memo the NYT is reporting on is internal propaganda intended to disrupt the 60 Minutes story.
The 1,500-word memo, written by Nick Clegg, Facebook’s vice president of policy and global affairs, was sent on Friday to employees to pre-empt the whistle-blower’s interview. Mr. Clegg pushed back strongly on what he said were the coming accusationsposted by Nelson at 7:04 AM on October 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm trying to imagine a social and civic circle where everyone is like "yes, Keybase, that is the social media we all use"
I was too. So I just told a few people who are always pestering me to keep in touch with them that that's the service I'd be available on, and now a few of them talk to me regularly that way and nobody pesters me about being antisocial any more. Which is pretty much win-win as far as I can tell.
I like that Keybase team chat doesn't have a corporate algorithm controlling what we talk to each other about; in fact by design it can't have any such algorithm because the Keybase servers have no access to message content. Instead, it's up to each of us to make chat teams, subteams and channels that segment our own conversations by topics of likely interest and I love that.
Also, no PGP signing parties are required. Once of the other nice things about the design of Keybase is that it allows account holders to prove that we are who we say we are, to anybody who has dealt with us online in pretty much any fashion, without needing nerdery to make that work. If you chat with flabdablet on Keybase you can know for sure that you're chatting with me.
The only thing I dislike about Keybase is that the central corporate server cluster is a single point of failure; if Zoom were ever to get its Google on and yoink Keybase after failing to monetize it, the service would simply cease to operate. If there were some open-source federated-servers alternative whose client was as well conceived and well designed as Keybase's I would jump ship in a heartbeat.
So far there isn't, though, and Keybase is still hitting my privacy vs social utility sweet spot so perfectly that I'm happy not only to stick with it for as long as it survives but to recommend that others take it for a spin as well. It's good shit, and the more people who try it out and go "you know what, this actually is good shit" the more likely we are to see somebody fork the clients (which are open source) and implement a federated server model in the back end. Maybe Mozilla?
posted by flabdablet at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was too. So I just told a few people who are always pestering me to keep in touch with them that that's the service I'd be available on, and now a few of them talk to me regularly that way and nobody pesters me about being antisocial any more. Which is pretty much win-win as far as I can tell.
I like that Keybase team chat doesn't have a corporate algorithm controlling what we talk to each other about; in fact by design it can't have any such algorithm because the Keybase servers have no access to message content. Instead, it's up to each of us to make chat teams, subteams and channels that segment our own conversations by topics of likely interest and I love that.
Also, no PGP signing parties are required. Once of the other nice things about the design of Keybase is that it allows account holders to prove that we are who we say we are, to anybody who has dealt with us online in pretty much any fashion, without needing nerdery to make that work. If you chat with flabdablet on Keybase you can know for sure that you're chatting with me.
The only thing I dislike about Keybase is that the central corporate server cluster is a single point of failure; if Zoom were ever to get its Google on and yoink Keybase after failing to monetize it, the service would simply cease to operate. If there were some open-source federated-servers alternative whose client was as well conceived and well designed as Keybase's I would jump ship in a heartbeat.
So far there isn't, though, and Keybase is still hitting my privacy vs social utility sweet spot so perfectly that I'm happy not only to stick with it for as long as it survives but to recommend that others take it for a spin as well. It's good shit, and the more people who try it out and go "you know what, this actually is good shit" the more likely we are to see somebody fork the clients (which are open source) and implement a federated server model in the back end. Maybe Mozilla?
posted by flabdablet at 9:00 PM on October 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was also rooting for Keybase pretty solidly, but then they had the one-two punch of "poorly dealing with realizing they were an avenue of harassment (as anybody could tell you would happen when you don't build anti-harassment into your social media)" and getting bit by the cryptocurrency bug and slathering that all over. (bonus points, they chose to do so in such a way that they directly incentivized a lot of people's Github accounts getting hacked)
Still better than Facebook, technically (though given how hard people had to fight to convince them that "yes, people have a valid reason to want to block someone", I'm not certain how much of that would stay the case at-scale), but it's enough of a bad taste in my mouth that I'm no longer talking them up to people.
Same sort of trouble with Signal.
My current hope is for Cwtch, it's a bit early to become a daily driver but it's being built by people who understand 'consent' as it applies to communication. (and the tech is really neat)
posted by CrystalDave at 9:54 PM on October 3, 2021
Still better than Facebook, technically (though given how hard people had to fight to convince them that "yes, people have a valid reason to want to block someone", I'm not certain how much of that would stay the case at-scale), but it's enough of a bad taste in my mouth that I'm no longer talking them up to people.
Same sort of trouble with Signal.
My current hope is for Cwtch, it's a bit early to become a daily driver but it's being built by people who understand 'consent' as it applies to communication. (and the tech is really neat)
posted by CrystalDave at 9:54 PM on October 3, 2021
Cwtch does look pretty nifty at first glance. Definitely worth keeping an eye on and thanks for the heads-up.
For the time being I still like Keybase better because they have cracked seamless multi-device e2ee, I like their identity and teams models, and their client is slicker than weasel shit. Plus, they do now have quite decent support for several levels of blocking despite the initial resistance, which shows that at least they're learning.
I also don't mind the cryptocurrency stuff. I think it's really really good that they went for a modern, well-designed cryptocurrency whose fundamental design does not rely on wasting resources at planet-threatening scale and also actually works as a currency. Stellar settles transactions really fast and really cheap and if national treasuries were to get behind it to the extent of issuing government-backed Stellar stablecoins to obviate the speculative volatility issue, then I think it could have real promise as a facilitator for rentier-free global payment processing.
posted by flabdablet at 10:26 PM on October 3, 2021
For the time being I still like Keybase better because they have cracked seamless multi-device e2ee, I like their identity and teams models, and their client is slicker than weasel shit. Plus, they do now have quite decent support for several levels of blocking despite the initial resistance, which shows that at least they're learning.
I also don't mind the cryptocurrency stuff. I think it's really really good that they went for a modern, well-designed cryptocurrency whose fundamental design does not rely on wasting resources at planet-threatening scale and also actually works as a currency. Stellar settles transactions really fast and really cheap and if national treasuries were to get behind it to the extent of issuing government-backed Stellar stablecoins to obviate the speculative volatility issue, then I think it could have real promise as a facilitator for rentier-free global payment processing.
posted by flabdablet at 10:26 PM on October 3, 2021
There's a new Metafilter post about the 60 Minutes whistleblower story.
posted by Nelson at 8:24 AM on October 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:24 AM on October 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: Slicker than weasel shit
posted by cynical pinnacle at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by cynical pinnacle at 1:50 PM on October 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
« Older Can someone explain how this video has 4.1M Views... | How Not to Get Lost in the Ocean Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by subdee at 1:20 PM on October 1, 2021 [48 favorites]