There is no fastball.
October 15, 2021 7:25 PM Subscribe
How I learned to hide the bomb and hate it.
Werner Heisenberg and the story to stop him. Involved was Moe Berg, spy extraordinaire.
"That story started in Ann Arbor, Mich., and moved to France, Switzerland and Germany, drew into its chapters a University of Michigan professor and former Red Sox catcher, and featured friendship, betrayal, and brazen kidnapping and assassination plots." from the first link.
"That story started in Ann Arbor, Mich., and moved to France, Switzerland and Germany, drew into its chapters a University of Michigan professor and former Red Sox catcher, and featured friendship, betrayal, and brazen kidnapping and assassination plots." from the first link.
I assume that everybody here is familiar with the book and movie about Moe Berg and his mission to check out Heisenberg: "The Catcher Was a Spy".
They are each pretty good.
What is especially satisfying about this story is that - at least for the duration of that evening in Switzerland - Heisenberg's fate is uncertain.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2021 [15 favorites]
They are each pretty good.
What is especially satisfying about this story is that - at least for the duration of that evening in Switzerland - Heisenberg's fate is uncertain.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2021 [15 favorites]
So interesting! Thanks for posting that.
posted by SA456 at 9:55 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by SA456 at 9:55 PM on October 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
In retrospect and with the benefit of hindsight, the US would have saved an awful lot of resources (including the labour of top scientists) if the Manhattan Project hadn’t been funded. As it was, Germany was defeated before either nation obtained nuclear weapons, and the USSR acquired its own nuclear weapons relatively quickly by acquiring the fruits of American research. From what I understand, the evidence for the war against Japan having been significantly abbreviated due to the nuclear attacks is debatable; what can’t be measured, though, is what could have been done with those resources if they weren’t spent on developing nuclear weapons.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:06 AM on October 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:06 AM on October 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
It was either the Boston Globe or one of the more regional papers here that I once saw a letter to the editor from someone complaining that they had just come back from seeing a movie titled "The Spy Who Shagged Me" believing it to be about Moe Berg ("shagged" has a very different meaning in baseball) and how upset they were that it wasn't.
I have no idea if this letter was a joke or if it was sincere, but it did bring a smile to my face and I got to learn about Moe Berg.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:35 AM on October 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
I have no idea if this letter was a joke or if it was sincere, but it did bring a smile to my face and I got to learn about Moe Berg.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:35 AM on October 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
what can’t be measured, though, is what could have been done with those resources if they weren’t spent on developing nuclear weapons.
It wasn't just money spent on the Manhattan Project. The development of the B-29 (the only American bomber capable of carrying a nuclear weapon) actually cost half again as much as the A Bomb.
posted by Bee'sWing at 10:49 AM on October 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
It wasn't just money spent on the Manhattan Project. The development of the B-29 (the only American bomber capable of carrying a nuclear weapon) actually cost half again as much as the A Bomb.
posted by Bee'sWing at 10:49 AM on October 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
What a terrible sting in the article's tail, "As for Goudsmit’s parents..."
posted by doctornemo at 1:25 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by doctornemo at 1:25 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think Manhattan Project cost about 1/70 of the F-35 program, even in today's dollars. But the following decades of nuclear weapon development likely ran into the several trillions (of course we don't know b/c Pentagon is literally unaccountable)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:31 PM on October 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:31 PM on October 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
The development of the B-29 (the only American bomber capable of carrying a nuclear weapon) actually cost half again as much as the A Bomb.
In ways your correct as the A- Bomb needed additional cost such as delivery, research, etc. But the B-29 cost almost double the Manhattan Project.
posted by clavdivs at 9:39 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
In ways your correct as the A- Bomb needed additional cost such as delivery, research, etc. But the B-29 cost almost double the Manhattan Project.
posted by clavdivs at 9:39 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
From what I understand, the evidence for the war against Japan having been significantly abbreviated due to the nuclear attacks is debatable;
Not really. As it was--after two bombs--there was very nearly a coup (of sorts) with the aim of continuing the war. Had the Japanese been sure the Americans had indeed used up their atomic resources, there wouldn't have been need for a coup. They would have fought on.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:03 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Not really. As it was--after two bombs--there was very nearly a coup (of sorts) with the aim of continuing the war. Had the Japanese been sure the Americans had indeed used up their atomic resources, there wouldn't have been need for a coup. They would have fought on.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:03 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I would say the Soviet declaration of war against Japan on August 8th, followed by its invasion of Manchuria the next day — August 9th, literally the same day as the bombing of Nagasaki — was arguably the primary factor in convincing Japan’s leaders that they could not hope to negotiate a conditional peace.
The Soviet Union and Japan had concluded a non-aggression pact in 1941, two years after Japan (then occupying Manchuria/Manchukuo) had been defeated in a series of border wars. Even when Japan was facing defeat at the hands of the USA its leaders may have thought that Great Power logic would lead Stalin to protect Japanese independence rather than see it fall totally within the USA’s sphere of influence. The Soviet renunciation of the non-aggression pact meant Japan could not hope for intercession from that quarter: in fact Japan might have ended up like Germany, divided among the Great Powers.
Japan was facing the USA and USSR on separate fronts; it could no longer count on the resources and territorial depth afforded by Manchuria; I think that to a military mind, focused on supply lines and territory rather than civilian lives, Japan’s suddenly weakened position would have been more significant than the use of a new weapon; and the Soviet Union’s rapid advance through Manchuria more troubling than the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:29 AM on October 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Soviet Union and Japan had concluded a non-aggression pact in 1941, two years after Japan (then occupying Manchuria/Manchukuo) had been defeated in a series of border wars. Even when Japan was facing defeat at the hands of the USA its leaders may have thought that Great Power logic would lead Stalin to protect Japanese independence rather than see it fall totally within the USA’s sphere of influence. The Soviet renunciation of the non-aggression pact meant Japan could not hope for intercession from that quarter: in fact Japan might have ended up like Germany, divided among the Great Powers.
Japan was facing the USA and USSR on separate fronts; it could no longer count on the resources and territorial depth afforded by Manchuria; I think that to a military mind, focused on supply lines and territory rather than civilian lives, Japan’s suddenly weakened position would have been more significant than the use of a new weapon; and the Soviet Union’s rapid advance through Manchuria more troubling than the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:29 AM on October 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
the B-29 cost almost double the Manhattan Project.
That’s astonishing. Mind you, we’re still using planes today that are only a couple of generations removed from the B-29; we probably got our money’s worth. Despite people’s best efforts to find a civilian use for nuclear weapons (e.g., Project Plowshare) I think the only “benefit” we received has been their use as a deterrent … against the use of the very same weapons.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:36 AM on October 17, 2021
That’s astonishing. Mind you, we’re still using planes today that are only a couple of generations removed from the B-29; we probably got our money’s worth. Despite people’s best efforts to find a civilian use for nuclear weapons (e.g., Project Plowshare) I think the only “benefit” we received has been their use as a deterrent … against the use of the very same weapons.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:36 AM on October 17, 2021
Mind you, we’re still using planes today that are only a couple of generations removed from the B-29; we probably got our money’s worth.
Yeah, but … amortizing the cost of a B-52 over a thousand years won’t turn it into a school or a hospital.
posted by mhoye at 5:38 AM on October 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but … amortizing the cost of a B-52 over a thousand years won’t turn it into a school or a hospital.
posted by mhoye at 5:38 AM on October 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:09 PM on October 15, 2021