Colin Luther Powell (April 5, 1937 – October 18, 2021)
October 18, 2021 6:53 AM Subscribe
Colin L. Powell, former secretary of state and military leader, dies at 84 [Washington Post]
Mr. Powell was a path breaker serving as the country’s first African American national security adviser, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and secretary of state. [New York Times]
Al Sharpton, Stacey Abrams, George Bush, More Pay Tribute To Colin Powell [BINNews.com]
1989: President George H.W. Bush names Army Gen. Colin L. Powell as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff [AP Archives via Youtube]
Mr. Powell was a path breaker serving as the country’s first African American national security adviser, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and secretary of state. [New York Times]
Al Sharpton, Stacey Abrams, George Bush, More Pay Tribute To Colin Powell [BINNews.com]
1989: President George H.W. Bush names Army Gen. Colin L. Powell as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff [AP Archives via Youtube]
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posted by SansPoint at 7:01 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 7:01 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh, yeah. The guy who should have known better.
posted by BigBrooklyn at 7:06 AM on October 18, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by BigBrooklyn at 7:06 AM on October 18, 2021 [20 favorites]
Ian Goodrum:
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:06 AM on October 18, 2021 [94 favorites]
Colin Powell died as all American war criminals do: Surrounded by his loved ones, after a long and happy life where he never for a moment feared any consequences for his actions.Also, an excellent thread here on Powell's decades-long history of trying to sweep American war atrocities (including the infamous massacre at My Lai) under the rug, then trying to make them sound as if they were unavoidable tragedies rather than the direct result of his and others' policies.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:06 AM on October 18, 2021 [94 favorites]
An impressive set of achievements.
All turned to ashes by his blatant lying about Iraqi WMD's to the UN general assembly.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:07 AM on October 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
All turned to ashes by his blatant lying about Iraqi WMD's to the UN general assembly.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:07 AM on October 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
Put him in the same file as John McCain: once believed to be a smart, mature conservative, quickly revealed to be just as spineless as his fellow partisans once the chips were down.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [34 favorites]
To crib from an incredible Twitter comment: Don't let Powell be as fatally misleading in the next life as he was in this one. He had the immunocompromising cancer multiple myeloma. So dying of COVID despite being fully vaccinated isn't a "gotcha", despite what Facebook might bleat about today.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:09 AM on October 18, 2021 [60 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 7:09 AM on October 18, 2021 [60 favorites]
this is how he would have wanted to go: as the vector for cynical disinformation that kills a lot of people
(In response to a tweet from a Fox drone pointing out that he was vaccinated, yet still died of a breakthrough infection, which “should raise concerns” about vaccine effectiveness)
posted by Ghidorah at 7:16 AM on October 18, 2021 [15 favorites]
(In response to a tweet from a Fox drone pointing out that he was vaccinated, yet still died of a breakthrough infection, which “should raise concerns” about vaccine effectiveness)
posted by Ghidorah at 7:16 AM on October 18, 2021 [15 favorites]
I could not dig: I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?
(Kipling, via Paul Campos)
posted by Not A Thing at 7:17 AM on October 18, 2021 [33 favorites]
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?
(Kipling, via Paul Campos)
posted by Not A Thing at 7:17 AM on October 18, 2021 [33 favorites]
He knew the WMD claptrap was horse puckey. Cheney and his cadre threatened to mess up his son's career so he went with it. Family before country.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 7:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 7:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
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It is easy to have complicated feelings about this man. I think he was better than many who took his role, and he owned his responsibility in making that speech. He subsequently endorsed and voted for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and left the Republican Party. He is responsible for passing along a lie, and it's easy for me to sit here and say he should have known better. He says as much himself.
His legacy is bigger than that error in judgement. I respect him and this is still a loss for our country.
posted by meinvt at 7:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [49 favorites]
It is easy to have complicated feelings about this man. I think he was better than many who took his role, and he owned his responsibility in making that speech. He subsequently endorsed and voted for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and left the Republican Party. He is responsible for passing along a lie, and it's easy for me to sit here and say he should have known better. He says as much himself.
His legacy is bigger than that error in judgement. I respect him and this is still a loss for our country.
posted by meinvt at 7:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [49 favorites]
His legacy is bigger than that error in judgement.
You are wrong.
His legacy is his part in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Everything else he achieved (impressive as it was in a highly local, US only sense) is, at best, irrelevant compared to that and, at worst, him throwing himself gleefully into a moral black hole.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:30 AM on October 18, 2021 [50 favorites]
You are wrong.
His legacy is his part in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Everything else he achieved (impressive as it was in a highly local, US only sense) is, at best, irrelevant compared to that and, at worst, him throwing himself gleefully into a moral black hole.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:30 AM on October 18, 2021 [50 favorites]
"Regrets, I've had a few ..."
posted by thecincinnatikid at 7:30 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by thecincinnatikid at 7:30 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
He's a military general, of course he was responsible for the deaths of people. The number and way this occurred can always be debated and I'm sure folks like him would like to redo some of their decisions.
posted by greatalleycat at 7:37 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by greatalleycat at 7:37 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
he owned his responsibility in making that speech
That works when it's a streamer apologizing after getting canceled, not for lying to the UN to justify a war.
posted by simmering octagon at 7:37 AM on October 18, 2021 [24 favorites]
That works when it's a streamer apologizing after getting canceled, not for lying to the UN to justify a war.
posted by simmering octagon at 7:37 AM on October 18, 2021 [24 favorites]
and left the Republican Party.
He waited until after January 6th to leave the Republican party. Kind of fucking pointless to hang on until your party is literally having an insurrection because they're angry they lost.
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posted by deadaluspark at 7:38 AM on October 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
He waited until after January 6th to leave the Republican party. Kind of fucking pointless to hang on until your party is literally having an insurrection because they're angry they lost.
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posted by deadaluspark at 7:38 AM on October 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
I read his autobiography back in the 90s. Can't say I agreed with him on much, but I could see the through-line of his life. The military was an early out when not many job options with the ability to rise in rank were available for African-Americans.
He came to fully believe in the military code of honor which led to his eventual break with the Republicans.
I remember an anecdote of when he worked in the Carter White House. Carter required no military be allowed to wear their uniforms in the White House. Powell (and the military) bridled at the command, feeling as though they were being treated as though their uniforms were shameful. They had to bring a second set of clothes to change into when they visited.
Colin going to a meeting with Reagan being told to bring all your projects for military weapons. Then after the meeting being told to bring more.
I felt I understood Powell. I didn't agree with him, I thought the Reagan episode was horrifying in a flush-money-down-the-drain because I [Reagan] am an insecure hawk, but I could see history from a perspective I would never have seen otherwise.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:42 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
He came to fully believe in the military code of honor which led to his eventual break with the Republicans.
I remember an anecdote of when he worked in the Carter White House. Carter required no military be allowed to wear their uniforms in the White House. Powell (and the military) bridled at the command, feeling as though they were being treated as though their uniforms were shameful. They had to bring a second set of clothes to change into when they visited.
Colin going to a meeting with Reagan being told to bring all your projects for military weapons. Then after the meeting being told to bring more.
I felt I understood Powell. I didn't agree with him, I thought the Reagan episode was horrifying in a flush-money-down-the-drain because I [Reagan] am an insecure hawk, but I could see history from a perspective I would never have seen otherwise.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:42 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
His legacy is bigger than that error in judgement.
You are wrong.
I disagree. I'm not saying that his later actions make up for his willingness to go along with fabricated evidence as pretext to a war. He lent his credibility to that cause, and never got it back, and rightfully so. But to say that one's legacy is forever limited to one's worst acts and that there is no option for later improvement in character or later steps to at minimum not repeat past failures is to say that it's not even worth trying. I save my harshest judgment for those who didn't acknowledge past crimes and misdeeds as wrong, and who have made no attempt to change course.
If there were a hell, Henry Kissinger should burn in the darkest, cruelest sector. But Colin Powell I see as a brilliant man, a talented general officer, and also a craven fool who couldn't muster the courage to go against the flow when everyone around him -- including most of the US -- wanted blood after 9/11. In later years he neither ignored that failure nor to my awareness tried to pretend it wasn't a colossal compromise of his character and a massive failure of judgement.
His reputation was, and should be, thoroughly and permanently tarnished. But if there is never any chance for someone to be partially redeemed by changing their actions and changing their course and doing better, then there's no reason for anyone to try. He tried. I credit him that, which is more than a lot of people he worked with are ever to likely do.
posted by tclark at 7:44 AM on October 18, 2021 [77 favorites]
You are wrong.
I disagree. I'm not saying that his later actions make up for his willingness to go along with fabricated evidence as pretext to a war. He lent his credibility to that cause, and never got it back, and rightfully so. But to say that one's legacy is forever limited to one's worst acts and that there is no option for later improvement in character or later steps to at minimum not repeat past failures is to say that it's not even worth trying. I save my harshest judgment for those who didn't acknowledge past crimes and misdeeds as wrong, and who have made no attempt to change course.
If there were a hell, Henry Kissinger should burn in the darkest, cruelest sector. But Colin Powell I see as a brilliant man, a talented general officer, and also a craven fool who couldn't muster the courage to go against the flow when everyone around him -- including most of the US -- wanted blood after 9/11. In later years he neither ignored that failure nor to my awareness tried to pretend it wasn't a colossal compromise of his character and a massive failure of judgement.
His reputation was, and should be, thoroughly and permanently tarnished. But if there is never any chance for someone to be partially redeemed by changing their actions and changing their course and doing better, then there's no reason for anyone to try. He tried. I credit him that, which is more than a lot of people he worked with are ever to likely do.
posted by tclark at 7:44 AM on October 18, 2021 [77 favorites]
"His legacy is his part in hundreds of thousands of deaths."
Both directly in the war itself, and indirectly, by feeding distrust of government.
We were lied to by everyone in the Bush II administration, but Powell's UN speech is the most crystalline example. It's not a stretch to say that government lies about WMDs fueled the growth of conspiracy theories in the internet age. Distrust in Covid vaccines has roots in distrust of government, which has a lot to do with Powell's UN speech.
In the great reckoning we all face, it will take a while to come up with Powell's account.
Condolences to his family and friends.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:44 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
Both directly in the war itself, and indirectly, by feeding distrust of government.
We were lied to by everyone in the Bush II administration, but Powell's UN speech is the most crystalline example. It's not a stretch to say that government lies about WMDs fueled the growth of conspiracy theories in the internet age. Distrust in Covid vaccines has roots in distrust of government, which has a lot to do with Powell's UN speech.
In the great reckoning we all face, it will take a while to come up with Powell's account.
Condolences to his family and friends.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:44 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
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posted by oozy rat in a sanitary zoo at 7:47 AM on October 18, 2021
posted by oozy rat in a sanitary zoo at 7:47 AM on October 18, 2021
Let me tell you about My Lie. Back in 2003, I was a factory foreman, and I had this employee, a friend, who was a bit disconnected. It was a problem, but it was because he was a new dad. He kept saying I'd understand when I see her, which took a while, but when I did I understood. She was an angel. Her eyes, it seemed like light came out of them. She was beautiful, I knew why you'd want to spend all night with her and be falling asleep on the job.
So I was beholding this gorgeous little human, and we're trying to make her say something, she was at that stage. Then the doorbell rang and her parents left the room momentarily to greet their guests. I was holding a beer, and I said 'can you say bottle'? And she locked those amazing eyes with mine and said 'botto'. 'Bottle?' I said. 'Bottol' she replied.
Her parents returned, they were gone for second. I had to explain the look on my face. 'She just ... isn't ready, she'll talk soon, any day now'.
That's My Lie. The proud dad reported later that she'd said her first words and I never told him otherwise. She's in college now. I don't regret it at all. It was the right thing to do, let him have that dad moment. Sometimes it's the right thing to do.
Anyhow let's talk about Colin Powell's lie. We all remember 2003. What a whopper. Not the first though. His first big lie was My Lai.
I suppose the army rewarded his lie. It served them at the time. I don't need to go back as far as 2003 to tell you what happens when a liar who is rewarded for lying gets into a leadership position. There's the big liar, but specifically regarding the army, what about this Flynn guy? An actual general who was fucking around with russian nogoodniks and is a Q weirdo. I think the army needs to weed these people out. FFS
Kissinger still around? No justice in this world.
posted by adept256 at 7:54 AM on October 18, 2021 [55 favorites]
So I was beholding this gorgeous little human, and we're trying to make her say something, she was at that stage. Then the doorbell rang and her parents left the room momentarily to greet their guests. I was holding a beer, and I said 'can you say bottle'? And she locked those amazing eyes with mine and said 'botto'. 'Bottle?' I said. 'Bottol' she replied.
Her parents returned, they were gone for second. I had to explain the look on my face. 'She just ... isn't ready, she'll talk soon, any day now'.
That's My Lie. The proud dad reported later that she'd said her first words and I never told him otherwise. She's in college now. I don't regret it at all. It was the right thing to do, let him have that dad moment. Sometimes it's the right thing to do.
Anyhow let's talk about Colin Powell's lie. We all remember 2003. What a whopper. Not the first though. His first big lie was My Lai.
Colin Powell, then a 31-year-old Army major serving as an assistant chief of staff of operations for the Americal Division, was charged with investigating the letter, which did not specifically refer to Mỹ Lai, as Glen had limited knowledge of the events there. In his report, Powell wrote, "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal Division soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." Powell's handling of the assignment was later characterized by some observers as "whitewashing" the atrocities of Mỹ Lai.It should have ended there right? Such a bold lie. When the truth became known, reprimand, discipline, dishonorable discharge. It should have been the lie that ended his career. You just can't bullshit about war crimes. But leadership saw his potential, he could go far with those skillls, all the way to general and the white house, where he told his most famous lie, leading a nation to war, death and destruction.
I suppose the army rewarded his lie. It served them at the time. I don't need to go back as far as 2003 to tell you what happens when a liar who is rewarded for lying gets into a leadership position. There's the big liar, but specifically regarding the army, what about this Flynn guy? An actual general who was fucking around with russian nogoodniks and is a Q weirdo. I think the army needs to weed these people out. FFS
Kissinger still around? No justice in this world.
posted by adept256 at 7:54 AM on October 18, 2021 [55 favorites]
My Lai, a bit part in Iran-Contra, the Iraq War, and now he's being used by the usual suspects for anti-vaccine propaganda. That's certainly a legacy.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:04 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by dirigibleman at 8:04 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
lest we forget:
Iraq Body Count
Iraq Body Count maintains the world’s largest public database of violent civilian deaths since the 2003 invasion, as well as separate running total which includes combatants.
posted by philip-random at 8:09 AM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
Iraq Body Count
Iraq Body Count maintains the world’s largest public database of violent civilian deaths since the 2003 invasion, as well as separate running total which includes combatants.
posted by philip-random at 8:09 AM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
Others have covered the more serious misdeeds better than I, so I shall mention one tiny quibble -
I have a friend who is also named "Colin" and is low-level miffed when people pronounce his name "wrong" because "that's how Colin Powell says it".
Comfort to his family because of his own humanity, I yield the ruling on his legacy to the ages and the fates.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:14 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
I have a friend who is also named "Colin" and is low-level miffed when people pronounce his name "wrong" because "that's how Colin Powell says it".
Comfort to his family because of his own humanity, I yield the ruling on his legacy to the ages and the fates.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:14 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Reputation cleanup in aisle 9!
* scrambling reporter noises *
posted by klanawa at 8:18 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
* scrambling reporter noises *
posted by klanawa at 8:18 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
He's a military general, of course he was responsible for the deaths of people. The number and way this occurred can always be debated and I'm sure folks like him would like to redo some of their decisions.
I'm sure there are people who can debate whether you should lie your way into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, but I am not one of them.
posted by Mavri at 8:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm sure there are people who can debate whether you should lie your way into a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, but I am not one of them.
posted by Mavri at 8:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
I think there are probably important, complicated things to be said about Colin Powell and the reactions to him -- about his role as a breaker of historically important racial barriers as well as a launderer of historically important military lies.
I'm afraid I have nothing good to say about the man, but I will confess that I see a pattern in the reactions to Powell (in death and life) that looks like a pattern that I've seen elsewhere, and sometimes within myself -- in which for one reason or another, particular fury just happens to be directed at those members of a ruling clique who are not perceived as white. I think that might be worth "sitting with", as people say.
My own feelings about Colin Powell are never going to be particularly complicated, as my own feelings about the American war machine (which owes its deadly, bloated existence to an unbroken line of murderous falsehoods) have never been particularly complicated, so all I can really manage on this one today is to gesture in the general direction of complexity.
posted by Not A Thing at 8:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm afraid I have nothing good to say about the man, but I will confess that I see a pattern in the reactions to Powell (in death and life) that looks like a pattern that I've seen elsewhere, and sometimes within myself -- in which for one reason or another, particular fury just happens to be directed at those members of a ruling clique who are not perceived as white. I think that might be worth "sitting with", as people say.
My own feelings about Colin Powell are never going to be particularly complicated, as my own feelings about the American war machine (which owes its deadly, bloated existence to an unbroken line of murderous falsehoods) have never been particularly complicated, so all I can really manage on this one today is to gesture in the general direction of complexity.
posted by Not A Thing at 8:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
“Powell’s book defended the practice of shooting male peasants from helicopters. If Vietnamese men, he wrote, wore “black pajamas,” “looked remotely suspicious” and “moved” after a warning shot, they were killed. “Brutal?” Powell asked. “Maybe so. . . . The kill-or-be-killed nature of combat tends to dull fine perceptions of right and wrong.” (Colin Powell, The Vietnam Years)"Anyone who runs is a VC. Anyone who stands still is a well-disciplined VC.“ - Tim Colceri, Full Metal Jacket
posted by sudogeek at 8:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
Harry Belafonte has outlived him. He had some very sharp words (CW: racism, slavery) back in 2002 to characterize Colin Powell. I don't believe he's ever retracted those words and they continued to be discussed for years.
I can't see past Powell's lies to help sell a false war in Iraq. While Belafonte's racial contextualization is incendiary I absolutely agree that he allowed himself to be used as a tool by Bush and Cheney. I respect people are complicated and that there's more to his story, but that was his career defining move.
I had no idea about his involvement in the Mỹ Lai coverup, thank you for sharing that adept256.
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
I can't see past Powell's lies to help sell a false war in Iraq. While Belafonte's racial contextualization is incendiary I absolutely agree that he allowed himself to be used as a tool by Bush and Cheney. I respect people are complicated and that there's more to his story, but that was his career defining move.
I had no idea about his involvement in the Mỹ Lai coverup, thank you for sharing that adept256.
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
He should spend eternity locked in a room with Donald Rumsfeld.
posted by Lyme Drop at 8:41 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 8:41 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
particular fury just happens to be directed at those members of a ruling clique who are not perceived as white
In many cases this is true, but this thread is a walk in Regents Park with birthday cake after compared to what will happen when Cheney and/or GWB go to meet their reward.
What strikes me is that in the end he received some retribution on this earth. Obviously one can't say with complete confidence that he would not have died of COVID (even with multiple myeloma) if Hillary Clinton had been elected in 2016. Far too many people would have died regardless of the initial government response. But I think it's very likely. The right-wing madness that he cravenly enabled for most of his political career killed him.
Nonetheless, sympathies to his family on their loss.
posted by praemunire at 8:43 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
In many cases this is true, but this thread is a walk in Regents Park with birthday cake after compared to what will happen when Cheney and/or GWB go to meet their reward.
What strikes me is that in the end he received some retribution on this earth. Obviously one can't say with complete confidence that he would not have died of COVID (even with multiple myeloma) if Hillary Clinton had been elected in 2016. Far too many people would have died regardless of the initial government response. But I think it's very likely. The right-wing madness that he cravenly enabled for most of his political career killed him.
Nonetheless, sympathies to his family on their loss.
posted by praemunire at 8:43 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
and also a craven fool who couldn't muster the courage to go against the flow when everyone around him -- including most of the US -- wanted blood after 9/11.
I was in 10th grade when 9/11 happened. My worst memories of high school have to do with being the kid who opposed the Iraq War. In the 2008 presidential election when Democrats were falling over themselves to oppose the war, I remember thinking "I was a fifteen, sixteen year old reading the newspaper. You had staffs and access to intelligence briefings. Why was I the one who knew it was bullshit?" I'll be honest, I don't think I'm the most principled person or the most courageous. I know someone with a parent who survived the Holocaust as a teen because they were hidden by a family who was recruited by the local priest (i.e. not hidden by family friends). I hear that story and wonder if I would have the courage to say yes. But I could stand up to that call for blood after 9/11. As a teenager. And yeah, I'm sure the lack of stakes made it easier (well, aside from the thousands of people my age killed for that bloodlust), but there's a darn big asterisk attached to the legacies of an awful lot of political figures of that era.
posted by hoyland at 8:43 AM on October 18, 2021 [34 favorites]
I was in 10th grade when 9/11 happened. My worst memories of high school have to do with being the kid who opposed the Iraq War. In the 2008 presidential election when Democrats were falling over themselves to oppose the war, I remember thinking "I was a fifteen, sixteen year old reading the newspaper. You had staffs and access to intelligence briefings. Why was I the one who knew it was bullshit?" I'll be honest, I don't think I'm the most principled person or the most courageous. I know someone with a parent who survived the Holocaust as a teen because they were hidden by a family who was recruited by the local priest (i.e. not hidden by family friends). I hear that story and wonder if I would have the courage to say yes. But I could stand up to that call for blood after 9/11. As a teenager. And yeah, I'm sure the lack of stakes made it easier (well, aside from the thousands of people my age killed for that bloodlust), but there's a darn big asterisk attached to the legacies of an awful lot of political figures of that era.
posted by hoyland at 8:43 AM on October 18, 2021 [34 favorites]
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posted by Roger Pittman at 8:50 AM on October 18, 2021
posted by Roger Pittman at 8:50 AM on October 18, 2021
Colin Powell went out of his way to lie, in order to create an unnecessary war that took 600k human lives, displaced millions more, and tore the world into bloody chaotic strife that continues to hurt people today and will continue to hurt years into the future.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:58 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:58 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
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But: A classic establishment figure who could take to the press, get good coverage, and remain "respectable" regardless of the obviously bad outcomes that resulted from everything he advocated for.
It's not a stretch to say that government lies about WMDs fueled the growth of conspiracy theories in the internet age.
Counterpoint: It's a huge stretch, and even a passing familiarity with the history of conspiracy mongers makes that clear. Conspiracy theories are fueled by exposing people to messy truths they don't like, not by tidy lies.
I guarantee you 80% of the pizza gate crowd thinks the WMD speech was (if they even think it was a knowing lie) justified by the need to kill some people in the Middle East.
posted by mark k at 9:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
But: A classic establishment figure who could take to the press, get good coverage, and remain "respectable" regardless of the obviously bad outcomes that resulted from everything he advocated for.
It's not a stretch to say that government lies about WMDs fueled the growth of conspiracy theories in the internet age.
Counterpoint: It's a huge stretch, and even a passing familiarity with the history of conspiracy mongers makes that clear. Conspiracy theories are fueled by exposing people to messy truths they don't like, not by tidy lies.
I guarantee you 80% of the pizza gate crowd thinks the WMD speech was (if they even think it was a knowing lie) justified by the need to kill some people in the Middle East.
posted by mark k at 9:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
I blame him for covering up war crimes and for lying to get the US into Iraq, but I'm not blaming him for dying of COVID while vaccinated.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
“Powell is a problem-solver. He was taught as a soldier to solve problems. So he has views, but he’s not an ideologue. He has passion, but he’s not a fanatic. He’s first and foremost a problem-solver.”
There are worse epitaphs.
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posted by Bee'sWing at 9:10 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
There are worse epitaphs.
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posted by Bee'sWing at 9:10 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
He was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom twice, but to me, his biggest and best badge of honor was getting called a "real stiff" by President Trump. Getting called out by President Trump is on my bucket list.
He himself said in his 2012 memoir “It Worked for Me,” “I am mad mostly at myself for not having smelled the problem. My instincts failed me.
“It was by no means my first, but it was one of my most momentous failures, the one with the widest-ranging impact.”
He added: “The event will earn a prominent paragraph in my obituary.”
By all accounts, a good husband, a good father, a good grandfather. I am leaving out the "good American" We can all make our own assessment of that.
I love this little snippet from the NY Post story on his death: In a leaked email he allegedly sent to a Democratic donor in 2014, Powell said he didn’t want to vote for Hillary Clinton because she was a greedy defender of the status quo whose husband is “still d—king bimbos at home."
When asked about the authenticity of the email, Powell told The Post, “Jeez, don’t remember this one. Best to ignore, don’t you think?”
.
posted by AugustWest at 9:10 AM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
He himself said in his 2012 memoir “It Worked for Me,” “I am mad mostly at myself for not having smelled the problem. My instincts failed me.
“It was by no means my first, but it was one of my most momentous failures, the one with the widest-ranging impact.”
He added: “The event will earn a prominent paragraph in my obituary.”
By all accounts, a good husband, a good father, a good grandfather. I am leaving out the "good American" We can all make our own assessment of that.
I love this little snippet from the NY Post story on his death: In a leaked email he allegedly sent to a Democratic donor in 2014, Powell said he didn’t want to vote for Hillary Clinton because she was a greedy defender of the status quo whose husband is “still d—king bimbos at home."
When asked about the authenticity of the email, Powell told The Post, “Jeez, don’t remember this one. Best to ignore, don’t you think?”
.
posted by AugustWest at 9:10 AM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
but I'm not blaming him for dying of COVID while vaccinated
Nobody is doing this.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:13 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
Nobody is doing this.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:13 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
I hope you change your bucket list to getting called out by non-President Trump.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:17 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:17 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm not going to link it, but there's a major news headline using the language, "The Colin Powell Republican no longer exists"...and that's wrong in the gravest sense.
First, there are still multitudes of aspiring (and many competent) sycophants who will do the hard work (and maybe learn interesting lessons) in the hopes that they will ascend to be some element of power behind the throne. These people will trade for power with anything they have: their abilities, their principles, cold hard cash, other peoples' well being and any symbolic advantage* they can summon to the table when called. They litter every echelon of the conservative and fascist machine and they are fully aware that one of the best ways to climb that ladder are the airs of credibility. It is one of the most lucrative commodities.
Second, the Republican party does not have a monopoly on this type of person.
*I say this as your run-of-mill white guy, but I think there is some cache to being black in the Republican party. I have no idea if Powell consciously traded on that. I'm sure the challenges he faced were legion compared to any advantage he might have gained. I also think it says something to the history of horrors experienced by black Americans that there is a baseline nobility to 'just' being a black man. Also there is a baseline curiosity and intellectual pique to being a competent black man in the Republican party.
I'm not trying to refute Not a thing's point at all; just saying it's complicated.
...and on preview, who the fuck am I to argue with Harry Belafonte
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 9:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
First, there are still multitudes of aspiring (and many competent) sycophants who will do the hard work (and maybe learn interesting lessons) in the hopes that they will ascend to be some element of power behind the throne. These people will trade for power with anything they have: their abilities, their principles, cold hard cash, other peoples' well being and any symbolic advantage* they can summon to the table when called. They litter every echelon of the conservative and fascist machine and they are fully aware that one of the best ways to climb that ladder are the airs of credibility. It is one of the most lucrative commodities.
Second, the Republican party does not have a monopoly on this type of person.
*I say this as your run-of-mill white guy, but I think there is some cache to being black in the Republican party. I have no idea if Powell consciously traded on that. I'm sure the challenges he faced were legion compared to any advantage he might have gained. I also think it says something to the history of horrors experienced by black Americans that there is a baseline nobility to 'just' being a black man. Also there is a baseline curiosity and intellectual pique to being a competent black man in the Republican party.
I'm not trying to refute Not a thing's point at all; just saying it's complicated.
...and on preview, who the fuck am I to argue with Harry Belafonte
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 9:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
He's a military general, of course he was responsible for the deaths of people. The number and way this occurred can always be debated and I'm sure folks like him would like to redo some of their decisions.
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.
posted by Flexagon at 9:26 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.
posted by Flexagon at 9:26 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
This thread is a refreshing contrast to the hagiography filling my facebook feed (from people of all political stripes).
posted by TedW at 9:34 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 9:34 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Seen on the bird app: whenever someone like Colin Powell dies, it really highlights how many "history will judge!" people are also "don't smear the dead" people
posted by sjswitzer at 9:36 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 9:36 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
It's been a while since I've taken a look at the Drudge Report.
The current leading headlines:
War hero, historymaker haunted by Iraq...
First Black Secretary of State...
Titan of American Life...
Massive Bipartisan Tribute...
FOXNEWS Anchor Deletes Tweet Claiming Death Raises Questions About Vaccines...
posted by philip-random at 9:36 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
The current leading headlines:
War hero, historymaker haunted by Iraq...
First Black Secretary of State...
Titan of American Life...
Massive Bipartisan Tribute...
FOXNEWS Anchor Deletes Tweet Claiming Death Raises Questions About Vaccines...
posted by philip-random at 9:36 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
white liberals really are in this thread thinking they're being anti-racist by cooing about Colin Powell in spite of his multi-decades long complicity in covering up/retconning US war crimes
the shallowness of that political analysis and the depth of that historical ignorance that understands the world only based on what the news produces is neither surprising nor original
hopefully y'all will know better by the time Thomas croaks but who knows
posted by paimapi at 9:39 AM on October 18, 2021 [21 favorites]
the shallowness of that political analysis and the depth of that historical ignorance that understands the world only based on what the news produces is neither surprising nor original
hopefully y'all will know better by the time Thomas croaks but who knows
posted by paimapi at 9:39 AM on October 18, 2021 [21 favorites]
He subsequently endorsed and voted for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and left the Republican Party.
After the GOP attempted an insurrection under the flag of racial hatred and genocide. He was a Black American man. That was literally the least he could do. His lies murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (and members of the military in multiple countries, not least the U.S.).
Nobody gives a shit how history will remember them. Not really. Nobody really cares about their legacy. They're dead. He murdered thousands of Americans who otherwise would not have died. He was a race traitor and a murderer and deserves no plaudits or accolades or kind words. Fuck him.
posted by tzikeh at 9:45 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
After the GOP attempted an insurrection under the flag of racial hatred and genocide. He was a Black American man. That was literally the least he could do. His lies murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (and members of the military in multiple countries, not least the U.S.).
Nobody gives a shit how history will remember them. Not really. Nobody really cares about their legacy. They're dead. He murdered thousands of Americans who otherwise would not have died. He was a race traitor and a murderer and deserves no plaudits or accolades or kind words. Fuck him.
posted by tzikeh at 9:45 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
Don't let Powell be as fatally misleading in the next life as he was in this one. He had the immunocompromising cancer multiple myeloma. So dying of COVID despite being fully vaccinated isn't a "gotcha", despite what Facebook might bleat about today.
Also, "fully vaccinated" is unclear in October 2021 - did he get a booster shot? Or was he among the first to get vaccinated some 8-9 months ago, with no booster since then? Would be nice if news reports included that information, in addition to the part about how he was immunocompromised.
posted by trig at 9:49 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, "fully vaccinated" is unclear in October 2021 - did he get a booster shot? Or was he among the first to get vaccinated some 8-9 months ago, with no booster since then? Would be nice if news reports included that information, in addition to the part about how he was immunocompromised.
posted by trig at 9:49 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
He GAVE UP his credibility in service of the Iraq invasion sideshow. He was presumed to be reasonably impartial and in possession of all pertinent intelligence. His lying testimony was the what the “moderates” hung their invasion support on and it became the centre of a huge gyre of news coverage. He should've been and a lot of other people should be held to account.
posted by brachiopod at 9:51 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 9:51 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
white liberals really are in this thread thinking they're being anti-racist by cooing about Colin Powell in spite of his multi-decades long complicity in covering up/retconning US war crimes
Absolutely can not wait to be accused of being an antisemite for not showing the proper level of "respect" and "civility" when Kissinger's dead.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:51 AM on October 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
Absolutely can not wait to be accused of being an antisemite for not showing the proper level of "respect" and "civility" when Kissinger's dead.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 9:51 AM on October 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
Good.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:02 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:02 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
I fully intend to piss on the reputations of Powell's partners in crime when their time comes.
In the absence of a text messaging service that alerts me to the five minute window between "It's too soon!" and "This is ancient history!" it's the only way to drive home the point that death does not erase evil.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:02 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
In the absence of a text messaging service that alerts me to the five minute window between "It's too soon!" and "This is ancient history!" it's the only way to drive home the point that death does not erase evil.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:02 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Attacking Powell for not leaving the Republican Party fast enough seems misguided. In the previous three presidential elections, he supported the opposing candidate and had nothing but hatred for Trump. After his exit he may have started to think for himself a little bit.
A year ago there was uneasy support from Democrats about the never-Trumpers, the Lincoln Project, and "moderate" Republicans. Now they're targets of criticism because they didn't burn all their political capital to the ground?
posted by meowzilla at 10:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
A year ago there was uneasy support from Democrats about the never-Trumpers, the Lincoln Project, and "moderate" Republicans. Now they're targets of criticism because they didn't burn all their political capital to the ground?
posted by meowzilla at 10:08 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
After the GOP attempted an insurrection under the flag of racial hatred and genocide.
Every Republican who left the party after the insurrection, wouldn't have if it had been successful.
posted by ryanrs at 10:14 AM on October 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
Every Republican who left the party after the insurrection, wouldn't have if it had been successful.
posted by ryanrs at 10:14 AM on October 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
The Lincoln Project aided, abetted, and later tried to cover for a sexual predator (who had gone after at least one minor) who was one of their founders and has done nothing since then, and the "moderate" Republicans and never-Trumpers have voted against or are planning to vote against almost every major bill or even halfway-competent government official. . .so, yes.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:15 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:15 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
white liberals really are in this thread thinking they're being anti-racist by cooing about Colin Powell in spite of his multi-decades long complicity in covering up/retconning US war crimes
I don't see anyone cooing over Colin Powell or anyone who commented on his war crimes dismissing them. Unless that's how you interpreted my comment.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:15 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't see anyone cooing over Colin Powell or anyone who commented on his war crimes dismissing them. Unless that's how you interpreted my comment.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:15 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
And I mean, this being MetaFilter, anyone who wants can go see us gleefully -- and righteously -- shitting on the graves of dead, white bastards. You don't beat white heteropatriarchy by joining it.
posted by klanawa at 10:16 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 10:16 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Absolutely can not wait to be accused of being an antisemite for not showing the proper level of "respect" and "civility" when Kissinger's dead.
Speaking as a Jew, I grant you permission to sing "Hava Nagila" and dance a hora on Kissinger's grave.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:17 AM on October 18, 2021 [36 favorites]
Speaking as a Jew, I grant you permission to sing "Hava Nagila" and dance a hora on Kissinger's grave.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:17 AM on October 18, 2021 [36 favorites]
Rest in piss war criminal
posted by Ferreous at 10:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 10:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
He's a military general, of course he was responsible for the deaths of people. The number and way this occurred can always be debated and I'm sure folks like him would like to redo some of their decisions.
Yeah, no. This wasn't a trolley problem situation. This was one of the guys who helped put the trolley on the tracks and started tying bodies to the rails. You don't get to lie your way into an unnecessary, unjustifiable war and then claim it's because your job is to make life-or-death decisions in the course of war.
posted by ook at 10:20 AM on October 18, 2021 [32 favorites]
Yeah, no. This wasn't a trolley problem situation. This was one of the guys who helped put the trolley on the tracks and started tying bodies to the rails. You don't get to lie your way into an unnecessary, unjustifiable war and then claim it's because your job is to make life-or-death decisions in the course of war.
posted by ook at 10:20 AM on October 18, 2021 [32 favorites]
I will make this much of an apology for Powell: he was no Kissinger.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
I just got tempbanned from the r/AskanAmerican subreddit for matter-of-factly pointing out two things:
1) Thousands of deaths are on his head from Iraq, and
2) He played a role in the My Lai coverup.
The reason of the ban was "misinformation," which says a lot about how insisting on an accurate historical record can be seen as an attack on those that would rather just let hagiography take over.
And I don't even particularly have it out for Colin Powell. But facts are facts.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 10:24 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
1) Thousands of deaths are on his head from Iraq, and
2) He played a role in the My Lai coverup.
The reason of the ban was "misinformation," which says a lot about how insisting on an accurate historical record can be seen as an attack on those that would rather just let hagiography take over.
And I don't even particularly have it out for Colin Powell. But facts are facts.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 10:24 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Also, "fully vaccinated" is unclear in October 2021 - did he get a booster shot? Or was he among the first to get vaccinated some 8-9 months ago, with no booster since then? Would be nice if news reports included that information, in addition to the part about how he was immunocompromised.
I have the same cancer he had. They just don't know how well the vaccines work for us. They are recommending a third shot (technically not a booster) - I've had one - but they don't know how well those work either. I'm in a study of how well the third shots work for multiple myeloma patients. I'll be tested for antibodies on Friday and then periodically for the next two years.
I was also in a study for the first two shots. I tested positive for antibodies the first few weeks, then negative after that.
This news is freaking me out a bit. I feel like I'll never be able to be around people again.
posted by FencingGal at 10:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [66 favorites]
I have the same cancer he had. They just don't know how well the vaccines work for us. They are recommending a third shot (technically not a booster) - I've had one - but they don't know how well those work either. I'm in a study of how well the third shots work for multiple myeloma patients. I'll be tested for antibodies on Friday and then periodically for the next two years.
I was also in a study for the first two shots. I tested positive for antibodies the first few weeks, then negative after that.
This news is freaking me out a bit. I feel like I'll never be able to be around people again.
posted by FencingGal at 10:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [66 favorites]
I hope you change your bucket list to getting called out by non-President Trump.
Unfortunately, he will always wear the title "President". Protocol is to call the person by the highest title they earned. He won election in 2016. Just as Hillary Clinton will always be Madame Secretary not Senator Clinton, Donald Trump will always be President (as well as asshole) Trump.
But I get your point. I do hope he is not a sitting President when he calls me out.
posted by AugustWest at 10:43 AM on October 18, 2021
Unfortunately, he will always wear the title "President". Protocol is to call the person by the highest title they earned. He won election in 2016. Just as Hillary Clinton will always be Madame Secretary not Senator Clinton, Donald Trump will always be President (as well as asshole) Trump.
But I get your point. I do hope he is not a sitting President when he calls me out.
posted by AugustWest at 10:43 AM on October 18, 2021
anyone who wants can go see us gleefully -- and righteously -- shitting on the graves of dead, white bastards.
that's what we call the 'lowest, most minimal bar' and not a good justification for saying shit like 'oh he just did this one set of dozens of war crimes that I'm personally aware of, big oopsie, still love the man tho, what a great American'
reading some of the comments in this thread feels like I'm reading dystopian SF - that comfortable, 'this doesn't affect me' insular view of history that the citizens of the antagonist nations always have, ignorant of the suffering of, for eg, over 80% of Iraqi children who've experienced trauma or the victims of the war crimes committed during the first Gulf War that Powell oversaw or even straight up ignoring repeated mentions of Powell's instrumental role in covering up the My Lai Massacre is just fucking wild, a kind of nationalistic delusion that I thought you could only craft in fiction
that bar of 'at least he wasn't Republican/at least he didn't like Trump' is a bar that allows for the forgiveness of atrocities that you have no. fucking. right. to give, as if the Democrats didn't oversee the drone strikes murdering literally thousands of children overseas that Obama conveniently turned into 'military age male' doublespeak
if you ever wonder why people abroad hate Americans as a whole, even the 'non-ignorant' ones that you think yourself a part of, this is fucking why
posted by paimapi at 10:46 AM on October 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
that's what we call the 'lowest, most minimal bar' and not a good justification for saying shit like 'oh he just did this one set of dozens of war crimes that I'm personally aware of, big oopsie, still love the man tho, what a great American'
reading some of the comments in this thread feels like I'm reading dystopian SF - that comfortable, 'this doesn't affect me' insular view of history that the citizens of the antagonist nations always have, ignorant of the suffering of, for eg, over 80% of Iraqi children who've experienced trauma or the victims of the war crimes committed during the first Gulf War that Powell oversaw or even straight up ignoring repeated mentions of Powell's instrumental role in covering up the My Lai Massacre is just fucking wild, a kind of nationalistic delusion that I thought you could only craft in fiction
that bar of 'at least he wasn't Republican/at least he didn't like Trump' is a bar that allows for the forgiveness of atrocities that you have no. fucking. right. to give, as if the Democrats didn't oversee the drone strikes murdering literally thousands of children overseas that Obama conveniently turned into 'military age male' doublespeak
if you ever wonder why people abroad hate Americans as a whole, even the 'non-ignorant' ones that you think yourself a part of, this is fucking why
posted by paimapi at 10:46 AM on October 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
Rest in piss war criminal
reminds me to ask: was rumsfeld interred? where?
i'm not gonna seek out powell's grave for the micturation, but neither will i mourn him.
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:47 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
reminds me to ask: was rumsfeld interred? where?
i'm not gonna seek out powell's grave for the micturation, but neither will i mourn him.
posted by 20 year lurk at 10:47 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Being Latino, I give you permission to dance Havana Gila on Kissinger's grave.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:55 AM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:55 AM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
I’m sorry, Fencing Gal. I can see how this would be an unsettling event for you. Sending hugs, if you want them.
posted by bunderful at 10:57 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by bunderful at 10:57 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
He was one of the best of the Republicans. He participated in lies that promoted a war in which at least 125,000 civilians died.The Right is deeply fouled, has lost any semblance of decency; he stayed. I think he knew how badly he fucked up, I think he tried to make up for it. This is as good as the Republican Party can get, and it's not good at all. What a tragic waste.
posted by theora55 at 10:59 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:59 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
paimapi, it's not entirely clear what you're trying to say re: my comment, but I was referring to the suggestion that we reserve this kind of (quite muted, as you've pointed out) disdain for men of colour.
posted by klanawa at 11:00 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by klanawa at 11:00 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
What, people really are defending mothertfucking Colin Powell, part responsible for a million plus Iraqi deaths and who got his start covering up war crimes in Vietnam?
The man was scum through and through.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:07 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
The man was scum through and through.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:07 AM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
we reserve this kind of (quite muted, as you've pointed out) disdain for men of colour.
War criminals more like. His race don't enter into it.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:11 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
War criminals more like. His race don't enter into it.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:11 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Do I hate him as much as Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld? No. But only just below that loathing.
Powell was a reluctant war criminal, which is to say he was a war criminal.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 11:18 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
Powell was a reluctant war criminal, which is to say he was a war criminal.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 11:18 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
@MohanadElshieky This is the first time Colin Powell was ever involved in a peaceful transition
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:19 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
I guess this thread dredges up the memory of watching Powell's speech on WMD. It came across to me as singularly unconvincing. He was one of my major reasons for believing no way did Hussein have WMD.
I don't think it had much to do of fueling the invasion of Iraq. That would have happened even if he performed hand shadows.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't think it had much to do of fueling the invasion of Iraq. That would have happened even if he performed hand shadows.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Jesus, MartinWisse could you please not edit my comment to say the opposite of what I said?
posted by klanawa at 11:27 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 11:27 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
You lie a country into one war...
posted by kirkaracha at 11:32 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 11:32 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
As with the previous attempt at hagiography this week, I am heartened that most of us will not apologize for taking the full measure, not apologizing for a fuller and honest accounting of the damage done over that individual's lifespan.
However tragic the circumstances, death does not absolve any of us of the responsibility to truth.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:38 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
However tragic the circumstances, death does not absolve any of us of the responsibility to truth.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:38 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Rest well in Valhalla.
I'm now imagining the sullen silence in that great hall as Powell delivers a thousand year long PowerPoint on the moral necessity for a selectively applied Ragnarok.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 11:45 AM on October 18, 2021 [19 favorites]
I'm now imagining the sullen silence in that great hall as Powell delivers a thousand year long PowerPoint on the moral necessity for a selectively applied Ragnarok.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 11:45 AM on October 18, 2021 [19 favorites]
Some years ago a truly horrible former premier of Alberta, Ralph klein, died and I posted an invective laced, though no profanties, diatribe about him on Facebook. It went viral and I was swamped by people foaming at the mouth with rage over my post.
The gist was don't speak ill of the dead which i always found bizarre, to say the least. It was also the first time I encountered that in a such an intense way.
Lead a good life and you won't get trashed when you die. Powell did inexcusable things that led to untold suffering, and he deserves all the opprobrium directed at him in this thread.
And, I did not know about his whitewashing of My Lai; that is beyond words for me, just like the lying to the UN was.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:45 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
The gist was don't speak ill of the dead which i always found bizarre, to say the least. It was also the first time I encountered that in a such an intense way.
Lead a good life and you won't get trashed when you die. Powell did inexcusable things that led to untold suffering, and he deserves all the opprobrium directed at him in this thread.
And, I did not know about his whitewashing of My Lai; that is beyond words for me, just like the lying to the UN was.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:45 AM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
.
posted by Annabelle74 at 11:58 AM on October 18, 2021
posted by Annabelle74 at 11:58 AM on October 18, 2021
Unfortunately, he will always wear the title "President". Protocol is to call the person by the highest title they earned. He won election in 2016. Just as Hillary Clinton will always be Madame Secretary not Senator Clinton, Donald Trump will always be President (as well as asshole) Trump.
Nah. This is a late (and gross) development. In prior centuries, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump. As only befits a republic that grants no titles of nobility.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 PM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
Nah. This is a late (and gross) development. In prior centuries, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump. As only befits a republic that grants no titles of nobility.
posted by praemunire at 12:16 PM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
Back in the 1990s I was researching war and literature. At one conference there was a furious argument about Powell and My Lai. Several researchers who'd been immersed in federal records passionately claimed that he hadn't gone any cover up.
Alas, I didn't get to follow up on that.
posted by doctornemo at 12:26 PM on October 18, 2021
Alas, I didn't get to follow up on that.
posted by doctornemo at 12:26 PM on October 18, 2021
Today in Tabs is scathing. "He is survived by his great-nephew Pete Wentz, and Henry Kissinger somehow."
posted by fedward at 12:41 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by fedward at 12:41 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's incredibly scary to realize someone even as wealthy & well-connected & known to be immunocompromised still couldn't keep Covid particles out of his sphere.
posted by bleep at 12:51 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:51 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
The Onion: Colin Powell, Presumably Wanted Fugitive Whose Location Must Have Been Unknown For Last 15 Years, Dead At 84
posted by CrystalDave at 1:11 PM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by CrystalDave at 1:11 PM on October 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
rest in war
posted by GoblinHoney at 1:13 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 1:13 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
davidcnswanson: #ColinPowell had vast stockpiles of integrity. I have satelite images of them, though I can't show those to you.
ZeeshanAleem: Left: Colin Powell threatened to resign over homosexuals serving in the military.... Right: Colin Powell telling a journalist that despite misgivings he "didn't have any choice" but to support Bush in the case for invading Iraq, a decision he never threatened to resign over.
As someone with a blood cancer and serious questions about my antibody count after my booster shot, the circumstances of Powell's death resonate deeply with me. But as a human being who prefers not to share a planet with amoral monsters, fuck that guy forever.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:14 PM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
ZeeshanAleem: Left: Colin Powell threatened to resign over homosexuals serving in the military.... Right: Colin Powell telling a journalist that despite misgivings he "didn't have any choice" but to support Bush in the case for invading Iraq, a decision he never threatened to resign over.
As someone with a blood cancer and serious questions about my antibody count after my booster shot, the circumstances of Powell's death resonate deeply with me. But as a human being who prefers not to share a planet with amoral monsters, fuck that guy forever.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:14 PM on October 18, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'm so happy we can call actual war criminals "war criminals" now. Let's do Bush II now and work our way backwards. Also, fuck this guy. Cowardly, murderous piece of shit.
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posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:16 PM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
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posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:16 PM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
and left the Republican Party.
He waited until after January 6th to leave the Republican party.
I don't see why changing to Independent is even reported -- so what? If whoever switched to Democrat, then -- that's news.
posted by Rash at 1:25 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
He waited until after January 6th to leave the Republican party.
I don't see why changing to Independent is even reported -- so what? If whoever switched to Democrat, then -- that's news.
posted by Rash at 1:25 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
From his Wikipedia page I learned that in his spare time he restored old Volvo and Saab cars. Somehow we have to come up with a way to try and figure out the war-mongers and criminals ahead of them taking positions of authority and get them super hooked on their hobbies with some weapons grade precision. Invade Iraq? Nah I'm good - someone just randomly dropped off a sweet 1968-Saab-Sonett fixer-upper, and a box of spare parts in my driveway....so yeah...no time I'm afraid
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:48 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:48 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, he will always wear the title "President". Protocol is to call the person by the highest title they earned. He won election in 2016. Just as Hillary Clinton will always be Madame Secretary not Senator Clinton, Donald Trump will always be President (as well as asshole) Trump.
Yeah, no, this whole development was a of piece for the Bush administration of which he was a willing and enthusiastic participant. We need to remember these things lest they become too normal. And they must be SAID AGAIN AND AGAIN like the fact the Colin Powell was a war criminal and remains one in death.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:59 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yeah, no, this whole development was a of piece for the Bush administration of which he was a willing and enthusiastic participant. We need to remember these things lest they become too normal. And they must be SAID AGAIN AND AGAIN like the fact the Colin Powell was a war criminal and remains one in death.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 1:59 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think the statement that Powell "came to believe in the military code of honor" is counterfactual.
Would a person who believed in the military code of honor have so blithely helped cover up war crimes that shat on the very concept of military honor?
No, I think Powell was, and always has been, a yes man who would do and say anything it took to get power, approval, and promotions from others. When ordered to cover up a war crime he did it unhesitatingly, there was no respect for military honor there.
He did things of such evil that no amount of good can ever make up for it, much less a mealy mouthed "I was mislead" type nonpology.
As near as i can tell the only thing he's ever done in his entire life that improved the world was dying, and he did that too late to make much difference.
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posted by sotonohito at 2:16 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Would a person who believed in the military code of honor have so blithely helped cover up war crimes that shat on the very concept of military honor?
No, I think Powell was, and always has been, a yes man who would do and say anything it took to get power, approval, and promotions from others. When ordered to cover up a war crime he did it unhesitatingly, there was no respect for military honor there.
He did things of such evil that no amount of good can ever make up for it, much less a mealy mouthed "I was mislead" type nonpology.
As near as i can tell the only thing he's ever done in his entire life that improved the world was dying, and he did that too late to make much difference.
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posted by sotonohito at 2:16 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Spencer Ackerman has said it better than I could.
But other than Bush and Cheney, Powell was the person that could have stopped the war, had he wished to do so. He could have spoken up. Rumsfeld and Cheney would have grumbled and shouted but Powell could have changed Bush's mind. He had the knowledge, he had the record, he had the previous personal relations. Powell chose to be a patsy and was used like a patsy and then dumped and replaced with Condoleeza Rice. Let history remember the man as a chump.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:20 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
But other than Bush and Cheney, Powell was the person that could have stopped the war, had he wished to do so. He could have spoken up. Rumsfeld and Cheney would have grumbled and shouted but Powell could have changed Bush's mind. He had the knowledge, he had the record, he had the previous personal relations. Powell chose to be a patsy and was used like a patsy and then dumped and replaced with Condoleeza Rice. Let history remember the man as a chump.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:20 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Why Powell didn't run for president in 1996.
More detail than I had, in case anyone is interested. He might have done better than GWB after 9/11, but it wasn't going to happen.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:26 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
More detail than I had, in case anyone is interested. He might have done better than GWB after 9/11, but it wasn't going to happen.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 2:26 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
A more measured assessment of Powell's later career from Fred Kaplan at Slate.
posted by PhineasGage at 2:32 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 2:32 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I remember after the war how “I believed Colin Powell!” was the plaintive ass-covering excuse of the many liberals and Democrats who had supported it. Which I always found absurd given that even a ten year old watching his performance at the UN would have been able to tell how transparently full of shit he was.
So let’s not just gather here condemning the man but also the other monsters on both sides of US politics who his ridiculous performance gave cover to. Including the Democratic nominees for President in 2004, 2016 and 2020.
posted by moorooka at 2:36 PM on October 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
So let’s not just gather here condemning the man but also the other monsters on both sides of US politics who his ridiculous performance gave cover to. Including the Democratic nominees for President in 2004, 2016 and 2020.
posted by moorooka at 2:36 PM on October 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
And nothing of value was lost.
posted by delfin at 2:44 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by delfin at 2:44 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
The 'ol Spotify algorithm can be pretty useless sometimes, but not today, as it started playing "War Pigs" at the exact moment I was reading this news on Twitter.
posted by saladin at 2:59 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by saladin at 2:59 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
I can't help but think of the patsy General played by Paul Winfield in Mars Attacks.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:34 PM on October 18, 2021
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:34 PM on October 18, 2021
Michael Harriot for The Root: Colin Powell, First Black Secretary of State, Dies From COVID Complications. It's a remarkably uncritical obituary. Harriot is not normally known for mincing words.
posted by Nelson at 3:39 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 3:39 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
"I remember an anecdote of when he worked in the Carter White House. Carter required no military be allowed to wear their uniforms in the White House. Powell (and the military) bridled at the command, feeling as though they were being treated as though their uniforms were shameful. They had to bring a second set of clothes to change into when they visited."
I can find no corroboration of this. I know that was a charge baselessly levelled at Obama, dances_with_sneetches but Lieutenant Carter? Not finding any proof of these allegations.
That said, may Colin Powell spend eternity hearing the screams of his victims.
posted by Floydd at 4:07 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
I can find no corroboration of this. I know that was a charge baselessly levelled at Obama, dances_with_sneetches but Lieutenant Carter? Not finding any proof of these allegations.
That said, may Colin Powell spend eternity hearing the screams of his victims.
posted by Floydd at 4:07 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Another thought that occurs is that I wish a journalist so that I could contract trace this. This could be a really interesting case to research because I'm imagining that he would have the tightest infection control you can buy, which I feel like makes it kind of like the ultimate control case. It would also maybe shed some light on what money can buy and what money can't buy which I for personal reasons which very much like to know.
posted by bleep at 4:23 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:23 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
The rich and powerful don't have much different a risk profile of contracting COVID-19. Essentially everyone with prior medical conditions has contact with caregivers and/or family members, and there is widespread existence of asymptomatic infection. There are so many vectors that apply to anyone who interacts with others. Gosh, you'd think he was a mere mortal, despite the unsparing commentary above.
posted by PhineasGage at 4:39 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 4:39 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by introp at 5:54 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by introp at 5:54 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I watched his Iraq speech in the airport; I remember standing there with dozens of others in the waiting area, many of them watching as raptly as I, or at least raptly for an airport. CNN heads one after another discussed it seriously, what it meant, what came next. I remember that little frisson you get when you're like, That's it? A vial and a CGI graphic? And you mentally shy away from outright rejecting what you just saw because everyone is taking it seriously, everyone around you, everyone on tv, and rejecting it would quite literally make you a conspiracy theorist. Thank goodness for the Daily Show and the blossoming internet so that we could sustain and nourish our conspiracy theory that it was all bullshit for the years it took before it was finally revealed. And even today it's called misinformation or stovepiping or whatever, instead of what it actually was, a pure instance of genuine conspiracy that resulted in a half-million or more dead. Damn him to hell.
posted by chortly at 6:08 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by chortly at 6:08 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Colin Powell will never get to see Dune, a movie about a delusional drugged up failson who pursues a vendetta to avenge his dad in a resource rich colony and ends up stoking the forces of jihad." (via)
posted by mark k at 6:23 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by mark k at 6:23 PM on October 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
a colin powell obit but written by Iraqis
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:26 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:26 PM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
nashwa lina @nashwalina
1 in every 5 Iraqis has someone in their family who died because of the invasion of Iraq.
More than half of all babies born in Fallujah between 2007 and 2010 were born with a birth defect.
The average lifespan in Iraq is 70.
Powell died at 84 surrounded by family.
10:16 AM · Oct 18, 2021·Twitter for iPhone
4,591 Retweets 95 Quote Tweets 20.7K Likes
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:56 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
1 in every 5 Iraqis has someone in their family who died because of the invasion of Iraq.
More than half of all babies born in Fallujah between 2007 and 2010 were born with a birth defect.
The average lifespan in Iraq is 70.
Powell died at 84 surrounded by family.
10:16 AM · Oct 18, 2021·Twitter for iPhone
4,591 Retweets 95 Quote Tweets 20.7K Likes
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:56 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Previously on MetaFilter: Powell's address to the UN, February 5, 2003.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:23 PM on October 18, 2021
posted by kirkaracha at 7:23 PM on October 18, 2021
PhineasGage: Thx so much for the Fred Kaplan link; I love to read Kaplan, he doesn't write down to his readers, he presumes that we know that DC is a vile, disgusting garbage pail, bodies buried here, there, everywhere. Kaplan has made a fantastic career out of telling us in his matter of fact way just where the bodies are, and who put them there. What a great reporter.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:00 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by dancestoblue at 8:00 PM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
And -- Colin Powell. What a bag of dog-shit. I'm glad that he's dead. Everyone in that administration just total mass murderers. I watched the little dog and pony show he put on to convince people on the fence -- all I had was an internet connection and that's all that I needed, it's all anyone needed.
They did that in my name, and in yours, if you're a US citizen. I cannot at all blame anyone for hating us, though the fact is that I did march against it, wrote against it, railed against it, as did people all over the world. But it was clear as clean glass --- the fix was in. They wanted their war. And they got it.
So fuck Colin Powell, a worthless shit-stain, led about by a ring in his nose by Cheney and Rummy. A weak, worthless man, stars on his shoulders but a ring in his nose.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:18 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
They did that in my name, and in yours, if you're a US citizen. I cannot at all blame anyone for hating us, though the fact is that I did march against it, wrote against it, railed against it, as did people all over the world. But it was clear as clean glass --- the fix was in. They wanted their war. And they got it.
So fuck Colin Powell, a worthless shit-stain, led about by a ring in his nose by Cheney and Rummy. A weak, worthless man, stars on his shoulders but a ring in his nose.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:18 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
kirkaracha, I was a lurker here when that thread happened, but I've not looked back at it until you posted that link. MetaFilter...was a very different place back then, almost unrecognizably so. It's an interesting read, but not an easy one.
posted by wintermind at 8:39 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by wintermind at 8:39 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Don't Ask, Don't Tell Clouds Powell's Legacy
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:11 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
On the other, he is also the person who disobeyed the strategic choice of his Commander in Chief, Bill Clinton, on gays in the military.. for Barry Winchell (and the thousands of others who died as a direct result of Powell's choices)
Powell stood on the steps of the Pentagon reporting how many calls had been received opposing lifting the ban. He testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee that the service of openly gay troops would harm unit cohesion. He argued that race was a “benign characteristic” and being gay was not. Congress codified into statute what had been a regulatory ban on gays in the military, making the law that much harder to change. Almost 14,000 lesbian, gay and bisexual service members were dismissed under “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” a rate of two-four service members every day. Some were subjects of witch hunts. Others faced criminal charges. Many endured harassment, assault and threats. Private First Class Barry Winchell was murdered.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:11 PM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
I always saw him as somebody who could have been a great man but sold out.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:40 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:40 PM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
He testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee that the service of openly gay troops would harm unit cohesion.
Chairman Fitzwallace: We’re discussing gays in the military, huh?posted by kirkaracha at 9:51 PM on October 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
Major Thompson: Yes sir.
Fitzwallace: What do you think? I said, what do you think?
Thompson: Sir, we’re here to help the White House form a possible —
Fitzwallace: I know. I’m asking you what you think.
Major Tate: Sir, we’re not prejudiced toward homosexuals.
Fitzwallace: You just don’t want to see them serving in the armed forces?
Tate: No, sir, I don’t.
Fitzwallace: 'Cause they pose a threat to unit discipline and cohesion.
Tate: Yes sir.
Fitzwallace: That’s what I think too. I also think the military wasn’t designed to be an instrument of social change.
Tate: Yes sir.
Fitzwallace: The problem with that is that's what they were saying to me fifty years ago. Blacks shouldn’t serve with whites, it would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed. I’m an admiral in the U.S. Navy and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Beat that with a stick.
a colin powell obit but written by Iraqis
Al Jazeera has a pretty good English language roundup.
posted by Not A Thing at 10:08 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Al Jazeera has a pretty good English language roundup.
posted by Not A Thing at 10:08 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Baking a yellow cake to celebrate.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:11 PM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:11 PM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
Phew the old Metafilter thread is certainly a journey. A whole lot to say but the main thing that comes through is that Powell really convinced a lot of people at the time. Or at least people wanted to believe. My own memory is that it was clear Powell's speech was horseshit even in the moment but that discussion sure doesn't reflect that.
posted by Nelson at 10:14 PM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:14 PM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
My own memory is that it was clear Powell's speech was horseshit even in the moment
Sure it was, to those of us who had been paying attention. To completely distressing numbers of others, it seemed to go over as alternative facts.
posted by flabdablet at 10:21 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Sure it was, to those of us who had been paying attention. To completely distressing numbers of others, it seemed to go over as alternative facts.
posted by flabdablet at 10:21 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
A whole lot to say but the main thing that comes through is that Powell really convinced a lot of people at the time. Or at least people wanted to believe.
Yeah, that’s how I remember it at the time. So many people wanted to believe, that any word from anyone was enough to convince them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:24 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that’s how I remember it at the time. So many people wanted to believe, that any word from anyone was enough to convince them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:24 PM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
From the Oh, Of Course department:
CNN: "Right-wing media figures dishonestly use Colin Powell's death to question Covid vaccines"
posted by bz at 10:25 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
CNN: "Right-wing media figures dishonestly use Colin Powell's death to question Covid vaccines"
posted by bz at 10:25 PM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
It was horseshit to me and I was barely 20 years old at the time and knew nothing. I don't know how to explain how so many believed it at the time. My only guess is that the more closely invested you were personally to American empire at the time (wealth, power, position, privilege, whatever) the harder it was to see what was plain as day to the rest of us who knew the cruelty and arrogance of America in a more every day visceral kind of way. That these people STILL to this day barely acknowledge they were dead ass wrong and should shut the fuck up and sit down is further proof that America is a cruel place that favors the arrogant.
posted by flamk at 10:36 PM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by flamk at 10:36 PM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
No one has mentioned that even if Iraq *had* had WMDs, that wouldn’t have justified an invasion. So does Russia. Israel. India. North Korea. Etc. We were so shaken by 9/11 that we thought we could just wipe out all the bad guys on earth and then we’d be safe. The Axis of Evil … bah. Such arrogance. I’m proud to say I at least attended one street vigil to protest the war ahead of time.
I’m watching the Crown and it’s a Thatcher situation. First woman yay! Thatcher boo! First black man yay! Powell boo!
posted by freecellwizard at 4:44 AM on October 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
I’m watching the Crown and it’s a Thatcher situation. First woman yay! Thatcher boo! First black man yay! Powell boo!
posted by freecellwizard at 4:44 AM on October 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
I was in Saint Petersburg having drinks with some State Department folks (bit of a long story about how that came to pass) and they started telling funny stories from their service. They all said that of recent Secretaries, they best liked working under Clinton and Powell, but that Powell was notorious for showing up and wanting to do something outside of the normal schedule with absolutely no warning.
In one particular case, he had just flown into Seoul and showed up at the embassy. There was some speech or meeting he had to go to, but first, and this was imperative, he needed to go to a market and buy some gifts for his kids. Maybe for a birthday he was going to miss or something.
All the embassy officials protested. There's no security plan in place. You're just going to walk around in the street and buy some stuff?? Etc. They couldn't convince him but they said that when the Secretary says "jump" you jump.
So with no planning at all, they drove to a bustling street market area and spent an hour or two shopping for gifts for his kids. Nothing happened, but the State Dept officers I was talking to said it was one of the scariest things they'd ever done simply because it was so spur of the moment. A couple of foreign service officers and one of the highest ranking officials in the US government were just wandering around the streets of Seoul for a while. Normally such an outing would probably never happen, but if it did it would've been planned out to the minute weeks in advance with clear plans for every possible situation.
posted by msbrauer at 6:13 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
In one particular case, he had just flown into Seoul and showed up at the embassy. There was some speech or meeting he had to go to, but first, and this was imperative, he needed to go to a market and buy some gifts for his kids. Maybe for a birthday he was going to miss or something.
All the embassy officials protested. There's no security plan in place. You're just going to walk around in the street and buy some stuff?? Etc. They couldn't convince him but they said that when the Secretary says "jump" you jump.
So with no planning at all, they drove to a bustling street market area and spent an hour or two shopping for gifts for his kids. Nothing happened, but the State Dept officers I was talking to said it was one of the scariest things they'd ever done simply because it was so spur of the moment. A couple of foreign service officers and one of the highest ranking officials in the US government were just wandering around the streets of Seoul for a while. Normally such an outing would probably never happen, but if it did it would've been planned out to the minute weeks in advance with clear plans for every possible situation.
posted by msbrauer at 6:13 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
(Just to follow up on the vaccine issue: according to the NYT, "Powell was set to receive a booster shot last week but had to postpone it when he became sick, a spokeswoman said.")
posted by trig at 6:21 AM on October 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by trig at 6:21 AM on October 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
> He's a military general, of course he was responsible for the deaths of people. The number and way this occurred can always be debated and I'm sure folks like him would like to redo some of their decisions.
Part of the skills of being a military general is knowing that invading a country, leaving it with a power vacuum, fighting a decades-long land-war you can't win, to try and gain rights to that country's oil resources they you would never own, slap bang in the hot-zone of all of the countries that think the US is Satan, and killing hundred-of-thousands, is a terrible idea.
And he failed. Not just with that fucking bullshit Powerpoint presentation, but with his moral compass.
Powell, you lived to a good age. The same can't be said for all those you had a hand in murdering, and still do.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:54 AM on October 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
Part of the skills of being a military general is knowing that invading a country, leaving it with a power vacuum, fighting a decades-long land-war you can't win, to try and gain rights to that country's oil resources they you would never own, slap bang in the hot-zone of all of the countries that think the US is Satan, and killing hundred-of-thousands, is a terrible idea.
And he failed. Not just with that fucking bullshit Powerpoint presentation, but with his moral compass.
Powell, you lived to a good age. The same can't be said for all those you had a hand in murdering, and still do.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:54 AM on October 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
thanks, kirkaracha, for posting the link to the 2003 discussion.. wow.
this here quote doesn't stand the test of a year, let alone the past 20 years: I'll still at least sleep at night knowing that my tax money is finally going to try and clean up a mess we helped create for once
r/confidentlyincorrect much?
posted by elkevelvet at 9:14 AM on October 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
this here quote doesn't stand the test of a year, let alone the past 20 years: I'll still at least sleep at night knowing that my tax money is finally going to try and clean up a mess we helped create for once
r/confidentlyincorrect much?
posted by elkevelvet at 9:14 AM on October 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
I was looking through the link above for Metafilter's contemporaneous reaction to Powell's Iraq War speech. I was surprised that so many MeFis found him convincing at the time.
My reaction was that the argument could be summed up as: Hussein has WMD. The proof is that he hides the proof. And why would he be hiding the proof unless something existed that needed to hidden? Do you want the proof to be another 9/11? He has not cooperated fully with the inspectors. The inspectors say they want to keep looking, but Iraq is big and we can't wait for evidence. Hussein's only option to avoid a war is to produce what he says he doesn't have. American lives are at stake.
This is my theory of the Iraq War. Bush thought:
#1. Hussein is a bad person. (Bush was right.)
#2. Removing Hussein will make me (Bush) a hero. Iraq will treat me as liberator. No. Hussein was the only thing that was holding together a country ready to descend into a Bosnian-like conflict. Fairly obvious at the time. That this would incite love for America was totally delusional.
#3. Removing Hussein will be easy. Half-true. But removing Hussein was not the real goal: having a stable Iraq was the goal.
#4. With Hussein gone, the region's conflicts will be gone. Therefore, cheap oil with American influence stamped all over it.
#5. WMD are real but just an excuse.
I don't think Powell believed all of the above. I think he rose in the military by rubber stamping the conservative status quo. Afterwards, he talked about being bullied into that speech. Probably true, but that in itself says he was enough of a weakling that didn't do his duty, either as a military officer or as Secretary of State.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:19 AM on October 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
My reaction was that the argument could be summed up as: Hussein has WMD. The proof is that he hides the proof. And why would he be hiding the proof unless something existed that needed to hidden? Do you want the proof to be another 9/11? He has not cooperated fully with the inspectors. The inspectors say they want to keep looking, but Iraq is big and we can't wait for evidence. Hussein's only option to avoid a war is to produce what he says he doesn't have. American lives are at stake.
This is my theory of the Iraq War. Bush thought:
#1. Hussein is a bad person. (Bush was right.)
#2. Removing Hussein will make me (Bush) a hero. Iraq will treat me as liberator. No. Hussein was the only thing that was holding together a country ready to descend into a Bosnian-like conflict. Fairly obvious at the time. That this would incite love for America was totally delusional.
#3. Removing Hussein will be easy. Half-true. But removing Hussein was not the real goal: having a stable Iraq was the goal.
#4. With Hussein gone, the region's conflicts will be gone. Therefore, cheap oil with American influence stamped all over it.
#5. WMD are real but just an excuse.
I don't think Powell believed all of the above. I think he rose in the military by rubber stamping the conservative status quo. Afterwards, he talked about being bullied into that speech. Probably true, but that in itself says he was enough of a weakling that didn't do his duty, either as a military officer or as Secretary of State.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:19 AM on October 19, 2021 [5 favorites]
At Christmastime in 2006, I was on a sleeper train from Toronto to Vancouver; there was a nice dining car for meals. One night at dinner I was sitting at a table with an elderly retired lawyer from a small town in Ontario when a young American twerp, maybe in his late twenties, sat down with us. The small talk went along pleasantly enough for a while - the kid apparently was taking the train because he’d been unable to get a last-minute flight to BC to go skiing at Whistler; he did seem a bit too annoyed about it, considering that his situation was probably his own fault, from his own lack of planning - but after a bit he brought up the war in Iraq, for some reason, and asserted the by then well-entrenched canard that Saddam had had WMDs, so the US had to go in… The old lawyer just shook his head and looked at him sadly and said, “Oh, that’s just a bunch of propaganda.” The kid was shocked; angrily, he blustered something and abruptly got up and left.
The old guy then said to me, “I’ve got a brother like that; we can’t talk about politics.”
(The last I saw of the twerp was in the train station at Vancouver, where he was berating a Via Rail employee about his skis…)
Via his reasonable demeanour, Colin Powell persuaded lots of well-meaning but too impressionable people in the US (and Canada, apparently) that there was a legitimate case for invading Iraq, and provided cover for many more not so reasonable people to indulge their prejudices against brown people. He was complicit in his administration’s war crimes. Countless people died because of an unjustified war that he should’ve had the integrity to oppose but ultimately chose not to. I don’t care how nice he was.
posted by Philofacts at 9:21 AM on October 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
The old guy then said to me, “I’ve got a brother like that; we can’t talk about politics.”
(The last I saw of the twerp was in the train station at Vancouver, where he was berating a Via Rail employee about his skis…)
Via his reasonable demeanour, Colin Powell persuaded lots of well-meaning but too impressionable people in the US (and Canada, apparently) that there was a legitimate case for invading Iraq, and provided cover for many more not so reasonable people to indulge their prejudices against brown people. He was complicit in his administration’s war crimes. Countless people died because of an unjustified war that he should’ve had the integrity to oppose but ultimately chose not to. I don’t care how nice he was.
posted by Philofacts at 9:21 AM on October 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
https://www.ianwelsh.net/remember-colin-powell/
posted by torii hugger at 9:31 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by torii hugger at 9:31 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is my theory of the Iraq War. Bush thought:
#1. Hussein is a bad person. (Bush was right.)
#2. Removing Hussein will make me (Bush) a hero. Iraq will treat me as liberator. No. Hussein was the only thing that was holding together a country ready to descend into a Bosnian-like conflict. Fairly obvious at the time. That this would incite love for America was totally delusional.
#3. Removing Hussein will be easy. Half-true. But removing Hussein was not the real goal: having a stable Iraq was the goal.
#4. With Hussein gone, the region's conflicts will be gone. Therefore, cheap oil with American influence stamped all over it.
#5. WMD are real but just an excuse.
You give him too much credit. Dick Cheney was the defense secretary of the first Gulf War. Bush the elder was the President during the first Gulf War. For them it was a glorious intersection of nationalism, settling a score, and the people settling the score controlling enough of the oil industry for it to be a massive fucking payday for all involved. Cheney was doing an end run around the fucking CIA with Rumsfeld's help and setting up a shadow intelligence pipeline in the Pentagon to get the CIA's "WMDs? Chemical weapons? What the fuck are you idiots talking about?" assessments away from anyone who wasn't in on the scam and/or had a functioning brain. In this scenario the CIA are the fucking good guys trying to stop the US from making a costly and disastrous decision, being cockblocked by the executive. That's how evil those motherfuckers were.
The second Gulf War was going to happen come hell or high fucking water. There was just too much money to be made.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:56 AM on October 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
#1. Hussein is a bad person. (Bush was right.)
#2. Removing Hussein will make me (Bush) a hero. Iraq will treat me as liberator. No. Hussein was the only thing that was holding together a country ready to descend into a Bosnian-like conflict. Fairly obvious at the time. That this would incite love for America was totally delusional.
#3. Removing Hussein will be easy. Half-true. But removing Hussein was not the real goal: having a stable Iraq was the goal.
#4. With Hussein gone, the region's conflicts will be gone. Therefore, cheap oil with American influence stamped all over it.
#5. WMD are real but just an excuse.
You give him too much credit. Dick Cheney was the defense secretary of the first Gulf War. Bush the elder was the President during the first Gulf War. For them it was a glorious intersection of nationalism, settling a score, and the people settling the score controlling enough of the oil industry for it to be a massive fucking payday for all involved. Cheney was doing an end run around the fucking CIA with Rumsfeld's help and setting up a shadow intelligence pipeline in the Pentagon to get the CIA's "WMDs? Chemical weapons? What the fuck are you idiots talking about?" assessments away from anyone who wasn't in on the scam and/or had a functioning brain. In this scenario the CIA are the fucking good guys trying to stop the US from making a costly and disastrous decision, being cockblocked by the executive. That's how evil those motherfuckers were.
The second Gulf War was going to happen come hell or high fucking water. There was just too much money to be made.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:56 AM on October 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
That Ian Welsh link asserts
posted by Nelson at 10:06 AM on October 19, 2021
Powell was also “in the room” during the discussions about what sort of torture was acceptable.I'd forgotten about that part of his legacy. It's a little ambiguous: see here, here, or here. At best it may be he didn't know about the torture initially, but it's not like he effectively spoke up against it once he did know. To his credit he did speak against torture in Jan 2002, early in the depraved debate.
posted by Nelson at 10:06 AM on October 19, 2021
The second Gulf War was going to happen come hell or high fucking water. There was just too much money to be made.
this more than anything else, to my mind.
I don't know that Powell was greedy to get some of that money. But he certainly lacked the courage to stand in the way of those who were. Would doing so have been futile? A gesture doomed to be swept aside, the end of his career, the end of any influence he may have had toward mitigating at least some of the crimes to come?
I think that Iraq Body Count site link answers things well enough. Whatever forces may have been aligned against him, Powell did not do everything he could to stop a completely unnecessary war. Shame on him.
posted by philip-random at 10:16 AM on October 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
...invading a country, leaving it with a power vacuum, fighting a decades-long land-war you can't win, to try and gain rights to that country's oil resources they you would never own, slap bang in the hot-zone of all of the countries that think the US is Satan, and killing hundred-of-thousands, is a terrible idea.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:20 AM on October 19, 2021
You say that like it's a bad thing.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:20 AM on October 19, 2021
And the question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth?-- Dick Cheney, 1992
And the answer is not very damned many. So I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:25 AM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I was surprised that so many MeFis found him convincing at the time.
I think I was convinced that Iraq because of Powell's reputation and seeming credibility. I wasn't convinced that there was a case for the United States attacking Iraq. I found a comment I made a couple days after Powell's speech that said I thought there was a case for the United Nations to take military action, which I don't think now.
I did feel at the time, and still feel, that the invasion of Iraq was illegal under US and international law.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:31 AM on October 19, 2021
I think I was convinced that Iraq because of Powell's reputation and seeming credibility. I wasn't convinced that there was a case for the United States attacking Iraq. I found a comment I made a couple days after Powell's speech that said I thought there was a case for the United Nations to take military action, which I don't think now.
I did feel at the time, and still feel, that the invasion of Iraq was illegal under US and international law.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:31 AM on October 19, 2021
Legacy of Shame: Colin Powell’s Blood-Soaked Service to the Empire
In this same week we lost Sister Megan Rice who was 91 years old. Rice was imprisoned for two years in federal prison when she was in her 80s after she broke into a government complex to protest nuclear weapons.
Sister Rice will not get the attention of a dead general in the mainstream press or by politicians of the ruling parties. Those who expose war crimes or who advocate peace are generally marginalized, imprisoned or silenced in militaristic societies
posted by adamvasco at 11:14 AM on October 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
In this same week we lost Sister Megan Rice who was 91 years old. Rice was imprisoned for two years in federal prison when she was in her 80s after she broke into a government complex to protest nuclear weapons.
Sister Rice will not get the attention of a dead general in the mainstream press or by politicians of the ruling parties. Those who expose war crimes or who advocate peace are generally marginalized, imprisoned or silenced in militaristic societies
posted by adamvasco at 11:14 AM on October 19, 2021 [9 favorites]
Donald Trump clearly doesn't believe in "speak no ill of the dead.. or fellow Republicans". At least he's consistent in his contempt for veterans.
posted by Nelson at 11:32 AM on October 19, 2021
posted by Nelson at 11:32 AM on October 19, 2021
Dick Cheney, 1992
A quote from a man working for a President who, for whatever faults he had, had been in a war and had no real appetite for it. A President who went to considerable lengths to assemble the largest international coalition in nearly 50 years before forcing Iraqi forces out of Kuwait.
It's also a quote from a man who was clearly saying what he was told to say and just had to wait a few years for a tractable failson of that first President and who got installed in the White House by judicial fiat to go along with what he really wanted.
posted by tclark at 12:46 PM on October 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
A quote from a man working for a President who, for whatever faults he had, had been in a war and had no real appetite for it. A President who went to considerable lengths to assemble the largest international coalition in nearly 50 years before forcing Iraqi forces out of Kuwait.
It's also a quote from a man who was clearly saying what he was told to say and just had to wait a few years for a tractable failson of that first President and who got installed in the White House by judicial fiat to go along with what he really wanted.
posted by tclark at 12:46 PM on October 19, 2021 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump clearly doesn't believe in "speak no ill of the dead.. or fellow Republicans".
But he is probably right though.
After a few years when the republican president is an even worse person, cnn,ect, will be white washing Trump.
Just look what they did with George W Bush.
posted by Iax at 2:16 PM on October 19, 2021
But he is probably right though.
After a few years when the republican president is an even worse person, cnn,ect, will be white washing Trump.
Just look what they did with George W Bush.
posted by Iax at 2:16 PM on October 19, 2021
At least he's consistent in his contempt for veterans.
Though Trump hates soldiers, I'm honestly unsure Trump is criticizing Powell for being part of the military or for committing war crimes. Rather, Powell is targeted because he doesn't fit Trump's race-bait-based messaging and branding — and more likely because Powell dared to criticize Trump publicly. Which makes him a Republican-in-name-only, just like any other terrible right-winger who has dared presume to speak out against the former president and game show host.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:34 PM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Though Trump hates soldiers, I'm honestly unsure Trump is criticizing Powell for being part of the military or for committing war crimes. Rather, Powell is targeted because he doesn't fit Trump's race-bait-based messaging and branding — and more likely because Powell dared to criticize Trump publicly. Which makes him a Republican-in-name-only, just like any other terrible right-winger who has dared presume to speak out against the former president and game show host.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:34 PM on October 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
He “wanted to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding and the infant at every christening.”. Whoever published that article 3 days ago should buy a lottery ticket.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:10 PM on October 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:10 PM on October 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Michael Harriot for The Root: Colin Powell, First Black Secretary of State, Dies From COVID Complications. It's a remarkably uncritical obituary. Harriot is not normally known for mincing words.
He explains himself further here.
posted by sjswitzer at 12:33 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
He explains himself further here.
posted by sjswitzer at 12:33 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
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