He also offered a friend $1 million to serve as his personal alarm clock
October 28, 2021 12:21 PM Subscribe
“Tony’s true friends, not interested in profiting from Tony’s condition, became increasingly concerned about Tony’s health and many were looking for ways to get Tony professional help,” court documents said. “Unfortunately, in the months since Tony had left the rehabilitation facility, several less scrupulous people prominently occupied Tony’s attention and were living large, all at Tony’s expense.” The last months of Tony Hsieh, former Zappos CEO, who died in November 2020. (TW: self-harm, drug abuse) Previously.
I really dont want to hang with my fellow employees 24/7... how dreadful.
posted by Czjewel at 1:54 PM on October 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 1:54 PM on October 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'm in the tech industry. I feel like this story could have happened to many people I know in it. It hasn't, though, and I'm grateful for that. But this kind of descent feels very adjacent and possible.
posted by Nelson at 2:22 PM on October 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 2:22 PM on October 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Although you could interpret that to be typical "suck every ounce of work out of these peons" capitalist strategy, from his book it seemed like there was other psychological stuff going on. He did not seem to perceive human relationships and boundaries in a healthy way.
I read that I think he just recreated college for himself while an adult because he could.
posted by srboisvert at 2:33 PM on October 28, 2021 [20 favorites]
I read that I think he just recreated college for himself while an adult because he could.
posted by srboisvert at 2:33 PM on October 28, 2021 [20 favorites]
Geez this is a sad waste. Of the many examples of how great wealth produces great distortions, this one kind of sticks out.
posted by elkevelvet at 2:53 PM on October 28, 2021
posted by elkevelvet at 2:53 PM on October 28, 2021
In the book he proudly describes moving his entire company from San Francisco to the Las Vegas suburbs because, in SF, his employees had gone home to their families or friends after work instead of hanging out at the office.
It's very sad that he was so mentally unwell and was beset by parasites that took advantage of him but, honestly, fuck this guy for this bullshit.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:15 PM on October 28, 2021 [32 favorites]
It's very sad that he was so mentally unwell and was beset by parasites that took advantage of him but, honestly, fuck this guy for this bullshit.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:15 PM on October 28, 2021 [32 favorites]
Having been adjacent to the man's group, I was both pushed hard by the holocracy ethos and mystified still how one gets from there to where he ended. Tragic for sure.
posted by riverlife at 4:06 PM on October 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 4:06 PM on October 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wealth enables distortions to be fully realized, as opposed to being the ghostly shades that they are for most of us.
If your dream was always to own a hotel, and you get blackout drunk and wake up in the tank because you stood in a hotel lobby and yelled "I OWN YOU NOW" until they dragged you away, that's a ghostly shade of realizing your dream, relative to waking up in the penthouse suite curled up around the property deed to the hotel.
I absolutely do not perceive human relationships and boundaries in the ways that other people do, and if I were so rich that wealth and societal constraints no longer bound me, I would either be completely boring and normal (house, land, distance from human beings) or I would be completely strange and weird (art collective, applied memetics, mad scientist) or both. I have a really intense moral compass, so at least I wouldn't turn evil, but it is entirely unclear if I would be able to avoid Tony's outcome. I like to hope that my first decision would be to give veto powers over my spending beyond $5-10k/mo to my financial advisor and friends. $10k/mo of free cashflow is enough to be effectively infinite to me, and realtime access to anything beyond that would have a tremendous chance of causing me to spiral out like Tony.
I don't play the lottery. However frustrating it is to pay off debt slowly, however frustrating it is some days to do mostly-irrelevant work for pay — a huge boon could leave me untethered from the society I live in, with no boundaries left that can stand up to my wealth, surrounded by friends who are unable to get through to me, because I've come fully unglued from the few things society holds that I understand at all.
It is terribly difficult to see what happened to Tony, because it could have happened to me. I missed a startup buyout by Bigcorp by a matter of months. The burnout drove me to madness, and I couldn't afford to exercise my options at departure, and then Bigcorp bought them for eight or nine digits. I got nothing but a job at another place, where I am still today years later, doing occasionally-relevant work for pay. My best friend got an enormous sum of cash, and in the ensuing years, very nearly spiraled out and then managed to work their way back from very nearly coming unglued at the seams, and is finally doing well enough that I think they'll make it.
I'm still upset that I missed out on a chance to have what I've always wanted — a reasonable basic income, shelter, water, and a lifetime supply of nutritional paste. But I don't want more than that to be handed to me. I don't want to be rich. Not like this, not like Tony. I want to have the freedom to choose whether to do things in my life or not, so that when I need to stop and rest, I can stop and rest, and not just drive myself into the ground for years at a time. I do not want to have the freedom to pay ten million dollars on a whim. I do not want to have access to infinite amounts of drugs. I do not want to be a target for financial vampires. I have seen plural people I know and love, spiral downwards like Tony as a result of unexpected wealth, and create societal wreckage in their lives and others to a degree that I didn't know was possible, and I am not certain I could avoid that, no matter how strong I am.
posted by Callisto Prime at 5:43 PM on October 28, 2021 [32 favorites]
If your dream was always to own a hotel, and you get blackout drunk and wake up in the tank because you stood in a hotel lobby and yelled "I OWN YOU NOW" until they dragged you away, that's a ghostly shade of realizing your dream, relative to waking up in the penthouse suite curled up around the property deed to the hotel.
I absolutely do not perceive human relationships and boundaries in the ways that other people do, and if I were so rich that wealth and societal constraints no longer bound me, I would either be completely boring and normal (house, land, distance from human beings) or I would be completely strange and weird (art collective, applied memetics, mad scientist) or both. I have a really intense moral compass, so at least I wouldn't turn evil, but it is entirely unclear if I would be able to avoid Tony's outcome. I like to hope that my first decision would be to give veto powers over my spending beyond $5-10k/mo to my financial advisor and friends. $10k/mo of free cashflow is enough to be effectively infinite to me, and realtime access to anything beyond that would have a tremendous chance of causing me to spiral out like Tony.
I don't play the lottery. However frustrating it is to pay off debt slowly, however frustrating it is some days to do mostly-irrelevant work for pay — a huge boon could leave me untethered from the society I live in, with no boundaries left that can stand up to my wealth, surrounded by friends who are unable to get through to me, because I've come fully unglued from the few things society holds that I understand at all.
It is terribly difficult to see what happened to Tony, because it could have happened to me. I missed a startup buyout by Bigcorp by a matter of months. The burnout drove me to madness, and I couldn't afford to exercise my options at departure, and then Bigcorp bought them for eight or nine digits. I got nothing but a job at another place, where I am still today years later, doing occasionally-relevant work for pay. My best friend got an enormous sum of cash, and in the ensuing years, very nearly spiraled out and then managed to work their way back from very nearly coming unglued at the seams, and is finally doing well enough that I think they'll make it.
I'm still upset that I missed out on a chance to have what I've always wanted — a reasonable basic income, shelter, water, and a lifetime supply of nutritional paste. But I don't want more than that to be handed to me. I don't want to be rich. Not like this, not like Tony. I want to have the freedom to choose whether to do things in my life or not, so that when I need to stop and rest, I can stop and rest, and not just drive myself into the ground for years at a time. I do not want to have the freedom to pay ten million dollars on a whim. I do not want to have access to infinite amounts of drugs. I do not want to be a target for financial vampires. I have seen plural people I know and love, spiral downwards like Tony as a result of unexpected wealth, and create societal wreckage in their lives and others to a degree that I didn't know was possible, and I am not certain I could avoid that, no matter how strong I am.
posted by Callisto Prime at 5:43 PM on October 28, 2021 [32 favorites]
What's striking to me here is that these people who were hanging off of him, taking advantage of his mental health problems and addiction to profit, seem utterly shameless about it now. When Ron Hynes died, -- supposedly of cancer, technically of dehydration, and really of addiction -- his nephew Joel Thomas Hynes wrote a long facebook post about his uncles addiction and how it ruined his life and how something needed to be done about the addiction crisis. In that post he mentioned "Ron had no property to call his own, had sold all his priceless, historic guitars for a pittance to feed his demons and line the pockets of drug dealers. "
A couple of weeks later there was a tribute concert where friends and family members who were musicians sang his songs*. One of the musicians who said he was a great friend of Ron's played a guitar that he described and was surely an impressive guitar for people who knew about guitars. He said he bought the guitar from Ron shortly before his death. And I just remember thinking about how shameless this guy was. He saw a man slowly killing himself with drugs who needed drug money and what he took from that was that here was his chance to get a great guitar at a great price. AND TELL THE STORY OF IT immediately afterwards, to an audience who would surely recognize the significance. He wasn't embarrassed or ashamed at all.
That's the kind of attitude it takes to look at deep misery and see an opportunity to suck out the last bit of blood. And then then have the guts to sue the estate. What is wrong with these people?
*and their own, because they clearly decided to use this as a chance to promote themselves, not just remember Ron Hynes and it was yet another example of hangers on trying to profit from someone else's tragedy.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:16 PM on October 28, 2021 [24 favorites]
A couple of weeks later there was a tribute concert where friends and family members who were musicians sang his songs*. One of the musicians who said he was a great friend of Ron's played a guitar that he described and was surely an impressive guitar for people who knew about guitars. He said he bought the guitar from Ron shortly before his death. And I just remember thinking about how shameless this guy was. He saw a man slowly killing himself with drugs who needed drug money and what he took from that was that here was his chance to get a great guitar at a great price. AND TELL THE STORY OF IT immediately afterwards, to an audience who would surely recognize the significance. He wasn't embarrassed or ashamed at all.
That's the kind of attitude it takes to look at deep misery and see an opportunity to suck out the last bit of blood. And then then have the guts to sue the estate. What is wrong with these people?
*and their own, because they clearly decided to use this as a chance to promote themselves, not just remember Ron Hynes and it was yet another example of hangers on trying to profit from someone else's tragedy.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:16 PM on October 28, 2021 [24 favorites]
Reading this I found it hard to relate to this megamillionaire who had everything and created it off the backs of others going off the deep end. I'm sure it's hard to have that much money, but the solution doesn't seem to disconnect from reality. I'm sure it's sad, but a lot of this read like a PR move by the family to explain why they should keep all the money. I'm not aware of what really happened, but there's so far little evidence that these people were keeping him in a catatonic state or that this powerful person who had no agency. As for the family woe is them, instead of inheriting 700 million dollars they'll only get 650. Truly the tragedy, and it's those nasty others who were actually dealing with Tony who were the problem and the 'blood suckers'.
posted by Carillon at 8:09 PM on October 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 8:09 PM on October 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
He also offered a friend $1 million to serve as his personal alarm clock
I've long considered that a desire to amass the kind of wealth that would make an offer like that actionable is a pathology that deserves its own entry in the DSM.
posted by flabdablet at 8:58 PM on October 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've long considered that a desire to amass the kind of wealth that would make an offer like that actionable is a pathology that deserves its own entry in the DSM.
posted by flabdablet at 8:58 PM on October 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Just here to join in the head shaking at the hangers-on who will leech from somebody clearly in trouble and not even have the decency to be ashamed of themselves afterwards.
posted by pulposus at 10:08 PM on October 28, 2021
posted by pulposus at 10:08 PM on October 28, 2021
Isn’t that the same behavior as those on the top of the pyramid?
posted by rdr at 3:22 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by rdr at 3:22 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
GDPR blues to the OP
posted by infini at 4:35 AM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 4:35 AM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
He saw a man slowly killing himself with drugs who needed drug money and what he took from that was that here was his chance to get a great guitar at a great price. AND TELL THE STORY OF IT immediately afterwards, to an audience who would surely recognize the significance. He wasn't embarrassed or ashamed at all.
The moral ethos of libertarianism in a nutshell, there.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:59 AM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
The moral ethos of libertarianism in a nutshell, there.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:59 AM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm a lot less disgusted at the hangers-on than at the system and people enabling only those peculiar madnesses which are profitable for the rich - sometimes even at the expense of their own structures & selves. From his shareholders and his boards of directors to the rank-and-file members of his cult and his employees, why did literally nobody ever tell this man no? Why did none of the family members of his sucked-in employees help them leave, get out, set boundaries? Only because he was rich and profitable. What's a mere hanger-on compared to the evil of a system that leaves us helpless to defend ourselves against exploitation by literal madmen, unable to tell the difference between someone who is losing their mind and someone who has "only" lost their humanity and morals?
posted by MiraK at 5:13 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 5:13 AM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
As for the family woe is them, instead of inheriting 700 million dollars they'll only get 650.
My guess is that it’s not about the money they would receive, but about preventing the people they believe enabled his decline and death.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 5:42 AM on October 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
My guess is that it’s not about the money they would receive, but about preventing the people they believe enabled his decline and death.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 5:42 AM on October 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
The article touches on Hsieh’s use of nitrous oxide. Those canisters… because the high isn’t very long lasting, they pile up. Like really pile up.
My late husband used nitrous towards the end of his life, and had hid them in places I didn’t usually go. I knew he was using, I didn’t know the extent. He had parts of the house that were his, and other parts had become so cluttered and messy, I couldn’t easily go. The garage that had once been a workshop for the both of us became impossible for me to use, I often wonder if this was actually intentional because of what we found out there. It was where he first hid alcohol when he was hiding his drinking. Maybe just an unintentional side effect.
I had friends over to help me clean out the place, it was like an archeological dig into addiction. We kept finding more stashes of those damn canisters. His basement mancave/work space had these big aluminum cases that were full of canisters and a mask he made to administer it, I think because he burned his face with one once. He said he got the cases because they were cool. Never once considered it was so he could hide the nitrous canisters.
It wasn’t as much that he used, because I knew that- it was the volume of canisters we kept finding. And I have a general sense that my husband’s use of nitrous started somewhere between a year and 9 months before his death, escalating in the last 6 months. I don’t know if he disposed of any either, or if that was all of it.
I can say being so close to an addiction like that, the appeal is that nitrous oxide “turns you off”, but then you can be functional and normal when not using. Kinda. My late husband was working and I don’t know if anyone that wasn’t at the cleanup or that I told even knew that he was using. Hsieh may have seemed fine, or at least fine-ish to those around him. They may have been enablers, they may have thought he was just going through something, they may have thought the best way to help was to stay close. The family may be right her they were taking advantage of an unwell man, but they also may just not have known the extent he was messed up and not just an overindulgent tech bro. Or were frogs that didn’t notice the pot of water they were in had started to boil. Or they were evil, money grubbing monsters looking for a pay day. It’s hard to know.
I sincerely doubt it has anything to with the actual money and more to do with wanting to keep the people they believed to be responsible, rightly or wrongly, in his decline and death.
My late husband’s family did not help in the funeral, some, like his sister, did not come. I am probably pulling too much from my own life experience, but it’s also easy to see parallels here. I can imagine a scenario where Hsieh’s family were not involved in the final days or the aftermath, and didn’t or couldn’t see how it could spiral so out of control and how the people close to him wouldn’t have been able to change anything.
Short version, I suspect it’s more about misplaced blame for Hsieh’s death and the only practical applicable thing for them to do with that blame, deny the people they think caused harm. I feel for them, but I think they probably are best served letting it go and honoring Hsieh’s obligations and recognizing likely no one really was aware how bad it was even if they knew it was bad.
(I am going through an unrelated situation with a crappy landlord and have been talking to a lawyer about what my options are to pursue civil damages. It’s not really about the money lost (thought some of it is), a large part is really about wanting to get justice for the perceived wrongs against me, and this is the tool I have. I’d equally be happy outside of actual losses if the state fined them for their actions, so I also filed a complaint with the state and local agencies, but I am not holding my breath. I do recognize that is exactly what this urge is though. I see now how issues like this are often not really or not exclusively about the money, it’s just how we handle things that are not criminal in the US.)
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:22 AM on October 29, 2021 [38 favorites]
My late husband used nitrous towards the end of his life, and had hid them in places I didn’t usually go. I knew he was using, I didn’t know the extent. He had parts of the house that were his, and other parts had become so cluttered and messy, I couldn’t easily go. The garage that had once been a workshop for the both of us became impossible for me to use, I often wonder if this was actually intentional because of what we found out there. It was where he first hid alcohol when he was hiding his drinking. Maybe just an unintentional side effect.
I had friends over to help me clean out the place, it was like an archeological dig into addiction. We kept finding more stashes of those damn canisters. His basement mancave/work space had these big aluminum cases that were full of canisters and a mask he made to administer it, I think because he burned his face with one once. He said he got the cases because they were cool. Never once considered it was so he could hide the nitrous canisters.
It wasn’t as much that he used, because I knew that- it was the volume of canisters we kept finding. And I have a general sense that my husband’s use of nitrous started somewhere between a year and 9 months before his death, escalating in the last 6 months. I don’t know if he disposed of any either, or if that was all of it.
I can say being so close to an addiction like that, the appeal is that nitrous oxide “turns you off”, but then you can be functional and normal when not using. Kinda. My late husband was working and I don’t know if anyone that wasn’t at the cleanup or that I told even knew that he was using. Hsieh may have seemed fine, or at least fine-ish to those around him. They may have been enablers, they may have thought he was just going through something, they may have thought the best way to help was to stay close. The family may be right her they were taking advantage of an unwell man, but they also may just not have known the extent he was messed up and not just an overindulgent tech bro. Or were frogs that didn’t notice the pot of water they were in had started to boil. Or they were evil, money grubbing monsters looking for a pay day. It’s hard to know.
I sincerely doubt it has anything to with the actual money and more to do with wanting to keep the people they believed to be responsible, rightly or wrongly, in his decline and death.
My late husband’s family did not help in the funeral, some, like his sister, did not come. I am probably pulling too much from my own life experience, but it’s also easy to see parallels here. I can imagine a scenario where Hsieh’s family were not involved in the final days or the aftermath, and didn’t or couldn’t see how it could spiral so out of control and how the people close to him wouldn’t have been able to change anything.
Short version, I suspect it’s more about misplaced blame for Hsieh’s death and the only practical applicable thing for them to do with that blame, deny the people they think caused harm. I feel for them, but I think they probably are best served letting it go and honoring Hsieh’s obligations and recognizing likely no one really was aware how bad it was even if they knew it was bad.
(I am going through an unrelated situation with a crappy landlord and have been talking to a lawyer about what my options are to pursue civil damages. It’s not really about the money lost (thought some of it is), a large part is really about wanting to get justice for the perceived wrongs against me, and this is the tool I have. I’d equally be happy outside of actual losses if the state fined them for their actions, so I also filed a complaint with the state and local agencies, but I am not holding my breath. I do recognize that is exactly what this urge is though. I see now how issues like this are often not really or not exclusively about the money, it’s just how we handle things that are not criminal in the US.)
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:22 AM on October 29, 2021 [38 favorites]
the hangers-on who will leech from somebody clearly in trouble and not even have the decency to be ashamed of themselves afterwards
Not all of them, but a good number of them, will be addicts themselves. An addict in the throes of addiction has no values at all, none, as against feeding the beast. It's very difficult to look at, but it's also a mental and physical disorder. If we recognize his diminished agency, we should also recognize that of people who could not buy their supply with dividends.
posted by praemunire at 7:04 AM on October 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Not all of them, but a good number of them, will be addicts themselves. An addict in the throes of addiction has no values at all, none, as against feeding the beast. It's very difficult to look at, but it's also a mental and physical disorder. If we recognize his diminished agency, we should also recognize that of people who could not buy their supply with dividends.
posted by praemunire at 7:04 AM on October 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
The article is region locked, but I was able to access it from the UK using 12ft.io- here
posted by cilantro at 7:06 AM on October 29, 2021
posted by cilantro at 7:06 AM on October 29, 2021
Those canisters… because the high isn’t very long lasting, they pile up. Like really pile up.
Whip-its are one of the weirder grey market drug workarounds. You can’t just go out and buy a tank of nitrous - well, it’s not that easy, anyway - but it’s legal and you can get it as dozens of single-serving metal cartridges. So yeah, they do accumulate conspicuously.
posted by atoxyl at 7:33 AM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Whip-its are one of the weirder grey market drug workarounds. You can’t just go out and buy a tank of nitrous - well, it’s not that easy, anyway - but it’s legal and you can get it as dozens of single-serving metal cartridges. So yeah, they do accumulate conspicuously.
posted by atoxyl at 7:33 AM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing the only reason nitrous oxide canisters are still legal is because there's no non-psychoactive solution that works as well for their legitimate purpose, and unlike with phenylephrine as a substitute for pseudoephedrine, it's much harder to gaslight people into believing that their very much un-whipped cream is sufficiently whipped.
posted by acb at 7:46 AM on October 29, 2021
posted by acb at 7:46 AM on October 29, 2021
A few years ago I came in the outer orbit of some families that have piles of money, and so many of them are kind of bonkers as well as unpleasant. They have no reign to their ability to indulge in what with normal people would be mild eccentricities, and no need to learn to get along with people. And sadly the younger ones as they grow up start finding that having their families buy them more and more stuff isn’t making them happy, but they don’t understand why and instead think it’s because they must just not have found the right stuff to make them happy and don’t realize things are going really wrong in their personal relationships.
It cured me of fantasies of winning the lottery. I don’t think most human beings can maintain their integrity in the face of limitless money, no matter how much they think they could be rich the right way.
posted by acantha at 7:53 AM on October 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
It cured me of fantasies of winning the lottery. I don’t think most human beings can maintain their integrity in the face of limitless money, no matter how much they think they could be rich the right way.
posted by acantha at 7:53 AM on October 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
why did literally nobody ever tell this man no?
I'm quite sure that some people did, minutes or possibly even hours before he sacked them.
posted by flabdablet at 8:01 AM on October 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
I'm quite sure that some people did, minutes or possibly even hours before he sacked them.
posted by flabdablet at 8:01 AM on October 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
There was a good article back in March 2021 with a broader picture of Hsieh's decline: Tech Zappos CEO Tony Hsieh Bankrolled His Followers. In Return, They Enabled His Risky Lifestyle. (Paywall busting link). It gives a fuller picture.
posted by Nelson at 8:10 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:10 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
In the book he proudly describes moving his entire company from San Francisco to the Las Vegas suburbs because, in SF, his employees had gone home to their families or friends after work instead of hanging out at the office.
There was also another side-benefit to Zappos - Las Vegas does not have alot of tech employers. I was working there for a client for 4-months during final days of the Zappo 'brand' before it fully transitioned to Amazon and was following closely - employees who wanted to subsequently leave were stuck with either working for a casino/entertainment/resort company, or moving away from Las Vegas entirely.
posted by rozcakj at 8:24 AM on October 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
There was also another side-benefit to Zappos - Las Vegas does not have alot of tech employers. I was working there for a client for 4-months during final days of the Zappo 'brand' before it fully transitioned to Amazon and was following closely - employees who wanted to subsequently leave were stuck with either working for a casino/entertainment/resort company, or moving away from Las Vegas entirely.
posted by rozcakj at 8:24 AM on October 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
You can’t just go out and buy a tank of nitrous
There was a dude in my high school who'd get one and have a "tank party", driving around in his van. I think he himself parked before he'd take a hit.
posted by thelonius at 9:53 AM on October 29, 2021
There was a dude in my high school who'd get one and have a "tank party", driving around in his van. I think he himself parked before he'd take a hit.
posted by thelonius at 9:53 AM on October 29, 2021
I’m sick to death of the aggrandizement of Rich People’s Problems. Cry me a fucking river.
posted by dbmcd at 11:17 AM on October 29, 2021
posted by dbmcd at 11:17 AM on October 29, 2021
Hey dbmcd, you know some folks on Metafilter knew Tony personally? Not me, but as I said above I know a lot of folks very like Tony, including the part about being Rich People. Sliding into addiction and death is a bad thing for everyone, not just the noble Lumpenproletariat.
posted by Nelson at 11:56 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 11:56 AM on October 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is every billionaire. Most are better at hiding it.
posted by bigbigdog at 12:03 PM on October 29, 2021
posted by bigbigdog at 12:03 PM on October 29, 2021
No, no, it's really not every billionaire. I know more than a couple. Many of them are reasonably happy well adjusted people who enjoy and appreciate their extraordinary privilege. Some of them even use some of that privilege for good, although not all the ones I know.
I'm well aware of the Metafilter Brigades and their hatred for people with wealth. Some of it is deserved. But shitting on this tragic story of someone falling into a cycle of addiction that killed him is gross and offensive. I have no problem with criticisms about how his wealth enabled him into this slide: both the original article and the WSJ one I linked recently cover that territory in great detail. It's appropriate and useful. But have some fucking compassion.
posted by Nelson at 12:09 PM on October 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm well aware of the Metafilter Brigades and their hatred for people with wealth. Some of it is deserved. But shitting on this tragic story of someone falling into a cycle of addiction that killed him is gross and offensive. I have no problem with criticisms about how his wealth enabled him into this slide: both the original article and the WSJ one I linked recently cover that territory in great detail. It's appropriate and useful. But have some fucking compassion.
posted by Nelson at 12:09 PM on October 29, 2021 [8 favorites]
Sorry, I just meant the wealth can make it worse. This is not a huge insight. And clearly not every billionaire. But extreme wealth is like any other difference, like being talented, or tall, or attractive, or disfigured. It’s a social gravitational warp. Some warps are bigger than others. I don’t know how to rein in the instincts of someone who literally can’t be stopped. We all deal with this everyday with the addicts around us and the family members we can’t ignore. I don’t hate billionaires—though I will use them to make cheap rhetorical points—but I do think we all have an interest in thinking about ways to live with these behemoths that stride among us, with all their human flaws and power.
posted by bigbigdog at 12:18 PM on October 29, 2021
posted by bigbigdog at 12:18 PM on October 29, 2021
No, no, it's really not every billionaire. I know more than a couple. Many of them are reasonably happy well adjusted people who enjoy and appreciate their extraordinary privilege. Some of them even use some of that privilege for good, although not all the ones I know.
I hate such people and I don't feel particularly bad about saying it. The misery on which that "happy well-adjustedness" and "appreciation" are built is and always has been incalculable. Literally on a scale that makes it unimaginable and thus allows the weak to pretend it doesn't exist.
On the whole, I don't think it's good to celebrate any human's death, but that's a separate issue.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on October 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
I hate such people and I don't feel particularly bad about saying it. The misery on which that "happy well-adjustedness" and "appreciation" are built is and always has been incalculable. Literally on a scale that makes it unimaginable and thus allows the weak to pretend it doesn't exist.
On the whole, I don't think it's good to celebrate any human's death, but that's a separate issue.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on October 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
Yeah I don't buy it. This is a man who moved his company because he felt they spent too much time with their friends and family. Both articles mention he kept good underlings on edge with people gaining and losing favor. But you expect us to believe the problem is we're to mean to him? I've got thing you can say I guess if that his self-destructive cycle only killed himself and didn't take others down with him. It's always relevant that the rich person in power gets the empathy but everyone else in the orbit is a blood sucker.
posted by Carillon at 8:54 PM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 8:54 PM on October 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
How rich does a person have to be before they no longer deserve empathy? Does it matter where that wealth came from, or how they use it? If the stock market tanks and their bank statements now read slightly below that magic number, do they deserve empathy again?
posted by dorothy hawk at 10:50 PM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by dorothy hawk at 10:50 PM on October 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Jewel left an elegy for Tony. They were friends it seems, and she is on the record as having said "no" to him shortly before his death.
I'm not sure what he needed before his death, but nitrous, ketamine, and propane heaters are symptoms of deeper underlying issues. Issues that all the money in the world couldn't cure. If he couldn't cure them, how can the rest of us afford the therapy and psychiatrists to?
But if you have those underlying issues, you really can't afford not to.
As far as his estate, family is the default next of kin. I don't know them, but I suspect it's less about them getting an extra 50 million, and more about the people the family believe indirectly killed him, not getting any money.
posted by fragmede at 12:00 AM on October 30, 2021
I'm not sure what he needed before his death, but nitrous, ketamine, and propane heaters are symptoms of deeper underlying issues. Issues that all the money in the world couldn't cure. If he couldn't cure them, how can the rest of us afford the therapy and psychiatrists to?
But if you have those underlying issues, you really can't afford not to.
As far as his estate, family is the default next of kin. I don't know them, but I suspect it's less about them getting an extra 50 million, and more about the people the family believe indirectly killed him, not getting any money.
posted by fragmede at 12:00 AM on October 30, 2021
Addiction, mental illness, and preventable early deaths deserve both empathy and sympathy alike.
However when considering Hsieh’s life outside those dimensions – a life of money hoarding, worker exploitation, and deception – it’s difficult to sympathize and much less empathize with him. Should other billionaires, none of whom are innocent of perpetuating inequality and exploitation, deserve such care? Does Harvey Weinstein deserve sympathy for his own decline in health? If the character themselves is corrupt, it can be difficult to feel anything for them.
Tony Hsieh’s story of addiction and mental illness is tragic. Tony Hsieh himself, behind his health problems, had an overall negative impact on society. It is reasonable if others feel that Hsieh is undeserving of further sympathy.
posted by EmperorOozy at 12:24 AM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
However when considering Hsieh’s life outside those dimensions – a life of money hoarding, worker exploitation, and deception – it’s difficult to sympathize and much less empathize with him. Should other billionaires, none of whom are innocent of perpetuating inequality and exploitation, deserve such care? Does Harvey Weinstein deserve sympathy for his own decline in health? If the character themselves is corrupt, it can be difficult to feel anything for them.
Tony Hsieh’s story of addiction and mental illness is tragic. Tony Hsieh himself, behind his health problems, had an overall negative impact on society. It is reasonable if others feel that Hsieh is undeserving of further sympathy.
posted by EmperorOozy at 12:24 AM on October 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Please cease the whole Sympathy / No Sympathy derail. Fortunately, no one here is in charge of soul-weighing, so it's not incumbent on us to produce feathers and scales in order to comment on the specifics of this story. It's fine to talk about addiction, the effects of wealth, social patterns / parasitism, inheritance law, legalities of this case in particular, further background or history not covered in the article, similar stories, anecdotes, etc. It's fine to talk about Hsieh's actions and choices, and for you to have your own feelings about those. But let's not (again) reduce an entire thread to [Subject of Post] = Good 🔲 / Bad 🔲. Thank you.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:14 AM on October 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:14 AM on October 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
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Although you could interpret that to be typical "suck every ounce of work out of these peons" capitalist strategy, from his book it seemed like there was other psychological stuff going on. He did not seem to perceive human relationships and boundaries in a healthy way. The huge success of Zappos meant that he was insulated from having to develop balanced human relationships where both parties can set and respect boundaries. The hangers-on described in the FPP article, who sped his demise, are proof of that.
posted by rogerroger at 1:12 PM on October 28, 2021 [47 favorites]