"You're going to have the wackos"

November 9, 2021 6:06 AM

A secret tape made after Columbine shows the NRA's evolution on school shootings – Tim Mak, NPR Investigations, November 9, 2021. Days after the 1999 Columbine High School shooting, senior National Rifle Association leaders held a private conference call about canceling their upcoming annual convention in Denver, Colorado. Thirteen people lay dead, over were 20 injured, and TV looped students running from the school. NRA strategists, shaken and panicked, discussed a much more sympathetic posture toward mass shootings than its uncompromising stance in decades since, even considering a $1 million victims’ fund. NPR has obtained over 2 1/2 hours of recordings of those private meetings, offering unique insight into the NRA's struggle to develop their standard response to school shootings.
posted by cenoxo (35 comments total)

Literally just finished reading this to find it posted here.

It's shocking but not shocking, and honestly if I had to imagine up a scene for a script it would probably hit most of the talking points brought out in this reporting. They knew they were responsible, and their only way to keep any face at all was to dig trenches and fortify. And what a great timeline that turned out to be.
posted by hippybear at 6:38 AM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

At a different time, just ten years ago even, it would have made a huge impact for LaPierre to be heard calling members "hillbillies" and "fruitcakes." But things are different today, and I'm not just referring to the NRA being in pieces. A revelation like that about any given GOP idol would be dismissed as a pure fake. Someday, I certainly expect there to be live evidence of Trump or some latter-day aspirant calling GOP base voters the most ableist, classist nicknames that a leftist could ever be shamed for using, and it won't make a bit of difference.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:50 AM on November 9, 2021 [16 favorites]

Someday, I certainly expect there to be live evidence of Trump or some latter-day aspirant calling GOP base voters the most ableist, classist nicknames that a leftist could ever be shamed for using, and it won't make a bit of difference.

Actually, today, the Right's media arm would somehow spin it as somehow originating on the Left (even just as "this is what the libs think of you"), and become a badge of honor. Basically, taking the path "deplorables" has from whole cloth, rather than a Hillary Clinton quote.

I suspect "redneck" could be viewed this way.
posted by MrGuilt at 6:59 AM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]

Actually, today, the Right's media arm would somehow spin it as somehow originating on the Left

"The libs see you all as subhuman lunatic epsilons who we can endlessly grift out of every penny while beating you like the broken feral old country buffet bible fucking dogs you are. I say that's something to be proud of!"
posted by Philipschall at 7:20 AM on November 9, 2021 [15 favorites]

14 deaths is around half the number of people who die because of the lack of swimming pool fences every month.

Something being more deadly, doesn't make the original death toll less meaningful, tragic, or impactful on our current culture.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 7:22 AM on November 9, 2021 [10 favorites]

Regarding whether these deaths are significant:

"In the United States, middle- and high school-age children are now more likely to die as the result of a firearm injury than from any other single cause of death."

Source: https://theconversation.com/the-facts-on-the-us-children-and-teens-killed-by-firearms-118318
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:40 AM on November 9, 2021 [17 favorites]

14 deaths is around half the number of people who die because of the lack of swimming pool fences every month.


It'll sound hyperbolic but, have you ever been shot at or, for that matter, been around when people are shooting at each other? In my experience, the times I've been around guns being used to try and kill other people have proven far more traumatic and psychologically stressful than the times I've been around un-fenced pools.

Also to be considered, say the daily carrying of guns becomes prevalent throughout all walks of life in America. Do you think this statistic about swimming pool fences will still hold up?

And lastly you of course realise that America is the only country that is having this debate. (As a thought experiment I would like to offer the puzzle - "why is that?")
posted by From Bklyn at 7:46 AM on November 9, 2021 [31 favorites]

This is definitely something that I see as not surprising but still very important to report on. It probably won't really change the minds of many people (maybe a few?) but it might help re-galvanize efforts for meaningful changes in gun policies in the US (I'm probably being too hopeful).

Maybe we should just let the shitheads win this one.

Win what, exactly? Total firearm deaths each year in the United States are much higher than school shootings alone (I think close to 40,000 deaths in 2019) and many of the same things to *meaningfully* (i.e., not security theater drills that probably do more harm to learning and childhood development than they possibly do to make people safer) reduce school shootings would also reduce total fire arm deaths in the US. And the NRA knows that the things we'd do to make schools safer would affect the rest of the country also, which is why they decided to fight against it all.
posted by skynxnex at 7:55 AM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

That bit in the article about George H. W. Bush resigning his NRA membership, leading to a loss of half a million members, is pretty interesting. Points to the importance of forcing politicians to renounce things/deplatforming them.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 7:56 AM on November 9, 2021 [16 favorites]

If you like this, here are a couple other excerpts from Misfire: Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone. I would also recommend the second season of the Gangster Capitalism podcast, which I probably heard about here.
posted by box at 8:04 AM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]

Yeah that part about Bush was really striking. You know, these motherfuckers could choose to do the right thing, but instead they choose to hold an entire country hostage to violence, chaos, and death, and there's nothing anyone else can do about it. Growing up I thought stories about heroes & villains were just stories and real life is probably nothing like that. But I was wrong! It's very much like that. It really just does take one person.
posted by bleep at 8:05 AM on November 9, 2021 [10 favorites]

A portrait I did a few years back when Wayne LaPierre seemd to be in the news a fair bit for his unethiocal behaviour.

And that swimming pool comment. Wow. Just fucking wow.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 8:05 AM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]

I'm so tired of people making absurd comparisons like the swimming pool one. A swimming pool has a primary purpose other than killing, and does not cause harm to most of the people or animals coming in contact with it. This is not true of guns, at all. Honestly, I'm so sick of the NRA's insistence that any discussion of the harms that guns cause is "politicization" of something somehow neutral, as though guns can be separated from the harms they cause.

I wish those of us who have survived being shot had the same lobbying power that the NRA does.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:10 AM on November 9, 2021 [28 favorites]

I did googled up some info about kids and gun violence in the US and, wow, is it bad.

Since 1963, nearly 193,000 children and teens have been killed with guns on American soil—more than four times the number of U.S. soldiers killed in action in the Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, and Iraq wars combined.
posted by LindsayIrene at 8:11 AM on November 9, 2021 [16 favorites]

If the pool deaths were because someone was intentionally pushing children into the pool and holding them under, I don't expect the pool industry to argue that safety precautions are the problem.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:15 AM on November 9, 2021 [12 favorites]

Mod note: Quite a few deleted. Some left up for context. The whole swimming pool comparison is unnecessary and we can do better. Please be mindful of your comments moving forward in this thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:17 AM on November 9, 2021 [15 favorites]

Quoting someone else - Sandy Hook was the end of the gun debate. If a classroom of murdered elementary school kids didn't drive meaningful action, nothing will.

Maybe some day in the future it will be like cigarettes and just not cool to expose others to lethal side effects in order to service your sense of entitled narcissism about freedom, but not today.
posted by lon_star at 9:22 AM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]

The cigarette companies knew how deadly smoking was; the oil companies knew how deadly climate change would be; and the NRA knew how deadly their organization could be. Nothing's free in Waterworld.
posted by a Rrose by any other name at 9:29 AM on November 9, 2021 [12 favorites]

See: nuke (orbit)
posted by gottabefunky at 10:48 AM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]

The cigarette companies knew how deadly smoking was; the oil companies knew how deadly climate change would be; and the NRA knew how deadly their organization could be.

Here's the thing: the Gun Complex (to include manufacturers, the NRA, and all the other gun fetishists) don't just have some idea about how bad their product is, any attempt at regulation whatsoever is presented as not just a threat to their business, but an existential threat to democracy.

So:

• We can't limit the types of guys people can buy, or quantity
• Background checks are questioned
• There is a move to allow folks to conceal carry without any training
• Federal funding is not available for research into gun violence

I know that the other industries mentioned deny the problem public as long as they can, and minimize it once they hit the point they can't. But the idea of guns as an individual right means the majority of people in the US that favor gun control (including gun owners) can't even have the conversation.

(This is all punctuated by the fact, as others have noted, that these are devices whose reason for being is to kill, and not just an unfortunate side effect.)
posted by MrGuilt at 10:54 AM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]

Internal deliberations are interesting, I guess, in some abstract historical sense. Still, at the end of the day, the NRA — and the many gun owners and manufacturers who underwrite the organization — have the blood of hundreds of thousands of gun massacre victims on their hands. Outside of pushing guns, they also launder Russian money and funnel it under the table to several high-placed Republicans, which has lead to a variety of right-wing policies that have also contributed to the needless suffering and death of hundreds of thousands of people. I'm not sure what changes about the discussion about the organization's carnage here. Showing how the sausage was made doesn't change that the end product is filled with maggots and rat shit, because we knew that about these people, already.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 AM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]

I loathe to enter any of these types of conversations where the mass of contributors are clearly one sided but the debate is worthwhile

> A swimming pool has a primary purpose other than killing, and does not cause harm to most of the people or animals coming in contact with it. This is not true of guns, at all.

Aside from the overarching reality of ownership being a civil right, and thus far more complicated and complex to regulate, firearms exist for many reasons, one of which being self defense. This was studied by the CDC during the Obama administration, and the study was not well received by anti-gun groups. https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3 Finding out half a million crimes a year are deterred isn't a small number. The issue with stating people don't need to defend themselves when you are a cis male in good health also brings up some fun privilege overtones for who's being asked to give up rights.

Comparing deaths of children to pools and cars by number isn't even relevant anymore, since opioid deaths (mostly prescription OD, listed as poisoning in the cdc stats) have overtaken every other cause of death of children as of last year.
posted by vincentmeanie at 11:30 AM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]

Aside from the overarching reality of ownership being a civil right

They want to overturn Roe, I want to overturn Heller.
posted by box at 11:39 AM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]

opioid deaths (mostly prescription OD, listed as poisoning in the cdc stats) have overtaken every other cause of death of children as of last year.

I'm not at all clear how teenagers stealing needed medication from disabled relatives relates to this issue. It seems like a poor and ableist comparison.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:19 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

Finding out half a million crimes a year are deterred isn't a small number.

Citation needed. And not from frauds and wackos like Gary Kleck, either.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:46 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]

Like I’ve said here before, these are the guns of US Civil War 2, and they won’t be laid down until that side loses — if in fact they do lose.
posted by jamjam at 1:07 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

since opioid deaths (mostly prescription OD, listed as poisoning in the cdc stats) have overtaken every other cause of death of children as of last year

I'm tempted to request a citation for this, too, while you're up, but...

Nah.

Because the thing is, every time someone points out the death toll of Something Conservatives Don't Want to Believe is Bad, people leap out of the woodwork with this kind of whataboutism.

COVID-19 has killed three-quarters of a million Americans? What about heart disease and cancer and diabetes?!

Police officers keep murdering unarmed Black people?* What about Black-on-Black crime?!

Another kid got hold of his irresponsible parent's gun, and now dozens of his classmates are in the morgue? What about medicine cabinets and swimming pools?! What about mental health?!

It's disingenuous concern-trolling. The only time the right wing mentions any given public-health crisis is to distract from another.

[*Would anyone actually recommend that a Black man carry a gun to prevent this particular crime?]
posted by armeowda at 1:10 PM on November 9, 2021 [35 favorites]

[*Would anyone actually recommend that a Black man carry a gun to prevent this particular crime?]

Philando Castillo was killed for telling a cop he was carrying a gun. So, no.
posted by hippybear at 1:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [18 favorites]

What bugs me more than anything about the laws pertaining to guns is the blanket immunity from civil liability that gun manufacturers and dealers enjoy. Nobody else gets such broad protection. Doesn't matter if the gun is defective or if the sellers are blatantly negligent, they can't be held to account at all, no matter the circumstances. At the very least, gun manufacturers should be liable for defective products.

Similarly, while there is some substance to the self defense argument, especially for people living in rural areas where there really are dangerous animals around, the "need" is overstated. I've lived (and recreated) in places where bears, big cats, wild pigs, etc are common. I get why people want to have guns to protect themselves. I also get that it's not actually an absolute necessity.

There's a reason why even a majority of gun owners think that more strict background checks and other reasonable restrictions are totally fine. The gun maximalist shit is coming from a small minority taking lots and lots of money from gun manufacturers. It's another case of a special interest obstructing the will of a sizable majority in order to maintain their profit margins.

Also, while it is true that guns can offer some personal protection, you're more likely to have the thing stolen or worse used against you than you are to deter violence against your person. I suspect that could be changed if substantial training were required to receive a carry permit, but that won't happen as long as the gun makers are allowed to put their profit margins above what's best for gun owners and broader society.
posted by wierdo at 5:06 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

vincentmeanie did in fact provide a citation for their statement, which is the actual government report they mention.

As far as Heller goes, I am a non-lawyer who thinks that it is bad law and that an individual right to arms was never intended. Militias to put down potential slave revolts were a large part of what was intended.

That being said I would also point to the irony that the one group who most exemplified the point of the, "We need guns to defend ourselves from out of control government," and developed what should have been judged a well-regulated militia was the original Black Panther Party. Which led to to the NRA supporting gun-control. Because armed black people are scary while armed white people are patriotic.

For those curious about the groups that find the NRA to be soft, a sentiment that will no doubt explode as this story spreads, check out NPR's podcast No Compromise.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:59 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]

vincentmeanie did in fact provide a citation for their statement, which is the actual government report they mention.

If you take the time to read through said government report and locate the specific “half a million crimes deterred” reference therein, you will find it is indeed an inline citation of a questionable study by

frauds and wackos like Gary Kleck.

Namely, one of the authors in the source it cites is Gary Kleck.

The paragraph in question goes on to mention that other studies paint a different picture, and it acknowledges the limitations of each.

This is why, when people make a simplistic claim and link a reputable-looking “source” for it, you have to go see if the source actually says what they say it says.
posted by armeowda at 8:31 PM on November 9, 2021 [18 favorites]

I'm not at all clear how teenagers stealing needed medication from disabled relatives relates to this issue. It seems like a poor and ableist comparison.

This is as weird a framing as the swimming pool thing.
posted by atoxyl at 10:27 PM on November 9, 2021

This seems like a weird story to release now, more than 20 years after the fact. The NRA has become largely irrelevant among the violent armed right wing. I know this because NPR themselves just won a Pulitzer for their very well researched podcast No Compromise all about modern pro-gun activists who believe in absolutely no gun regulation whatsoever. They repeatedly mock the NRA, and they are deeply involved in US politics--one of the profiled activists was (until a few weeks ago) Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene's chief of staff.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:29 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]

This seems like a weird story to release now, more than 20 years after the fact.

Well this is pegged to the recent release of journalist Tim Mak's Misfire: Inside the Downfall of the NRA Presumably he was only able to get primary source documents and sources commenting on the record because the NRA's power is waning and the organization is fractured due to all their current legal and leadership troubles.
posted by mmascolino at 6:19 AM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]

Gun laws in the United States by state [WP (last edited 26 October 2021)].
posted by cenoxo at 6:15 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]