For when you're sure you hate it but not sure why
November 9, 2021 11:44 AM Subscribe
Daylight Savings Time Gripe Assistant Tool. A handy tool to help make your case when whining about a biannual time change.
The southernmost border of Germany is further north than the north tip of Maine, and the winter I spent in Germany as an exchange student was really shocking for me, coming from near the border with Mexico in New Mexico, which is on an equivalent parallel with Cairo or thereabouts...
The sun would rise at 10 and set at 3.
I know, I was only a late teenager at the time and hadn't really lived outside my latitude at the time, but it never really occurred to me exactly how GIGANTIC the daylight shift could be. Like, I knew about the Arctic Circle, but the idea of there being a continuum of daylight change on the way north hadn't really penetrated to me.
I lived in AZ for a while, and the ONLY good thing I have to say about that experience was the lack of time change twice a year.
posted by hippybear at 12:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
The sun would rise at 10 and set at 3.
I know, I was only a late teenager at the time and hadn't really lived outside my latitude at the time, but it never really occurred to me exactly how GIGANTIC the daylight shift could be. Like, I knew about the Arctic Circle, but the idea of there being a continuum of daylight change on the way north hadn't really penetrated to me.
I lived in AZ for a while, and the ONLY good thing I have to say about that experience was the lack of time change twice a year.
posted by hippybear at 12:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
Darkness is my time, so I say bring it on as early as possible so I can spend time with my wife, lie in bed watching comfort TV, or playing a video game. Dark by 5:30pm? Absolutely, yes please!
posted by Servo5678 at 12:27 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Servo5678 at 12:27 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm basically a 100% standard time person. Even though I'm a night person by nature, it seems, I still prefer mornings that are less dark if possible. It's all a collective fiction society has decided on and it's interesting, to me, that we find it conceptually simpler to literally change what time it is rather than adjusting start/stop times of activities so they fit what people prefer.
In summary, I'd rather standard time so noon is close-ish to solar noon but would *accept* shifting the clocks an hour if we get that as a consensus (and no longer call it "daylight saving time") to avoid changing the time twice a year. Not that seems likely to happen at all...
posted by skynxnex at 12:29 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
In summary, I'd rather standard time so noon is close-ish to solar noon but would *accept* shifting the clocks an hour if we get that as a consensus (and no longer call it "daylight saving time") to avoid changing the time twice a year. Not that seems likely to happen at all...
posted by skynxnex at 12:29 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
Excellent. My confusion at why so many other people have trouble with DST (but couldn't agree on which direction to go) while I've never really minded it is cleared up.
Two directions I could see this being neat:
1. Combine this with a population distribution, so I canfind a model that works for the most people find out how I can get the most people to conform to my desires!
2. What about *double* DST? My first interpretation was "Shift 2 hours each way", but now I'm also wondering about a stepped model where it peaks at 2 hours either way & is neutral at the equinoxes.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:38 PM on November 9, 2021
Two directions I could see this being neat:
1. Combine this with a population distribution, so I can
2. What about *double* DST? My first interpretation was "Shift 2 hours each way", but now I'm also wondering about a stepped model where it peaks at 2 hours either way & is neutral at the equinoxes.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:38 PM on November 9, 2021
My dog has opinions on this, but he can't type. He finds it unfair that mealtimes shift twice a year. Obviously he likes spring better, when food suddenly arrives earlier, but in general, he prefers regularity. Right now, he is hangry several hours every day.
posted by mumimor at 12:39 PM on November 9, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 12:39 PM on November 9, 2021 [34 favorites]
The idea of always-DST is deeply flawed. Teens learn poorly in school when they are forced to wake up before dawn, so school start times would have to be moved back if we went to always-DST. Then parent have to see the kids off to school, so most workplaces would have to move their hours later if we went to always-DST. Either we would screw over our educational system or we'd have the same net effect as always-standard. There is simply no way to have more sunlight at night/less in the morning that doesn't cause serious damage to educational outcomes.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 12:41 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 12:41 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
My dog has opinions on this, but he can't type.
Problem solved.
posted by The Bellman at 12:47 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Problem solved.
posted by The Bellman at 12:47 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Pick one or the other and stick with it. I’m fine either way, but the couple of weeks adaptation after each change is annoying AF.
Bonus if it screws Arizona up even more.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 12:48 PM on November 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
Bonus if it screws Arizona up even more.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 12:48 PM on November 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm an "always DST/keep the same" guy.
I hear complaints about school impact of kids up before dawn, and, while there may be science behind it, it rings hollow when I see so many kids (such my daughter and everyone else in the district) rarely able to get up after dawn on the current system. If you want to change the whole system, sure, we can talk, but absent that school shouldn't enter into the discussion.
posted by MrGuilt at 12:49 PM on November 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
I hear complaints about school impact of kids up before dawn, and, while there may be science behind it, it rings hollow when I see so many kids (such my daughter and everyone else in the district) rarely able to get up after dawn on the current system. If you want to change the whole system, sure, we can talk, but absent that school shouldn't enter into the discussion.
posted by MrGuilt at 12:49 PM on November 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
Later school start times are fine with me. Why do parents have to see their teens off to school?? I think the last time my parents ever "saw me off" to school was 4th grade.
High schools start so early for a variety of reasons including lack of busses, not because of parents schedules.
posted by muddgirl at 12:51 PM on November 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
High schools start so early for a variety of reasons including lack of busses, not because of parents schedules.
posted by muddgirl at 12:51 PM on November 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
Split the difference and only shift half an hour the next time, then keep it that way.
posted by Ampersand692 at 12:52 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Ampersand692 at 12:52 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
DST time changes cause fatal traffic accidents.
Abolish it.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:53 PM on November 9, 2021 [17 favorites]
Abolish it.
posted by saturday_morning at 12:53 PM on November 9, 2021 [17 favorites]
My partner and I have been doing scheduling for an international conference that's this coming weekend. There are people registered from 13 time zones. For about half of those time zones, the time change happened in between when we were planning and when the conference happened.
Right now I would quite like to eliminated DST. Also time zones. Can we all just use UTC, please?
posted by sibilatorix at 12:53 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Right now I would quite like to eliminated DST. Also time zones. Can we all just use UTC, please?
posted by sibilatorix at 12:53 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Isn't North Korea, like, 45 minutes off from everywhere else? Just because?
posted by hippybear at 12:54 PM on November 9, 2021
posted by hippybear at 12:54 PM on November 9, 2021
This map doesn't give me the option of "keep DST, but move one time zone to the west" which is what I really want. (I live in Atlanta. We should be on Central time.)
posted by madcaptenor at 12:54 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by madcaptenor at 12:54 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
I moved from really far west in the time zone to really far east in the time zone a few years back after growing up kind of in the middle and I'm still grumpy. Getting up in the cold and dark was miserable in December, but on the flip side, (1) the sun didn't start setting at 4pm like it's doing right now, and (2) having summer evenings go until 9pm was downright magical. Team "late sunset matters most of all" all the way.
The one way that the earlier sunsets are beneficial, mentally, for fasting holidays. The fast is the same length, but it *feels* shorter when sunset's earlier. Yom Kippur in Ohio was *rough* when it was early in the year.
posted by damayanti at 1:00 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
The one way that the earlier sunsets are beneficial, mentally, for fasting holidays. The fast is the same length, but it *feels* shorter when sunset's earlier. Yom Kippur in Ohio was *rough* when it was early in the year.
posted by damayanti at 1:00 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
My partner and I have been doing scheduling for an international conference that's this coming weekend. There are people registered from 13 time zones. For about half of those time zones, the time change happened in between when we were planning and when the conference happened.
Related story:
One of my family's summer vacations was a sort of week-long Southwest US Tour, where we started in Las Vegas, then rented a car and drove to Zion Canyon in Utah, then on to Bryce Canyon in Utah, then on to the Grand Canyon in Arizona and then to Lake Powell, which is half in Utah and half in Arizona; then we went back to Las Vegas and went home.
However, that itinerary lead to a whole lot of clock changing, because:
1.Home was Connecticut, which was in Eastern Daylight time.
2. Las Vegas was on Pacific Daylight Time.
3. We then crossed into Utah for Zion Canyon, which was Mountain Daylight Time.
4. Then when we got to Arizona and The Grand Canyon, we were in the part of Arizona which doesn't do Daylight Savings Time, so we had to change to Mountain Standard Time.
5. So then when we got to Lake Powell, because half of it was in Arizona and half of it was in Utah, that meant half of the park was on Mountain Daylight Time and half was on Mountain Standard Time.
6. And then we had to change to Pacific Daylight Time for our return to Las Vegas.
Things got so bad that at one point, my father stopped someone to ask them, "would you mind telling me what time it is specifically where I'm standing right now?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:02 PM on November 9, 2021 [16 favorites]
Related story:
One of my family's summer vacations was a sort of week-long Southwest US Tour, where we started in Las Vegas, then rented a car and drove to Zion Canyon in Utah, then on to Bryce Canyon in Utah, then on to the Grand Canyon in Arizona and then to Lake Powell, which is half in Utah and half in Arizona; then we went back to Las Vegas and went home.
However, that itinerary lead to a whole lot of clock changing, because:
1.Home was Connecticut, which was in Eastern Daylight time.
2. Las Vegas was on Pacific Daylight Time.
3. We then crossed into Utah for Zion Canyon, which was Mountain Daylight Time.
4. Then when we got to Arizona and The Grand Canyon, we were in the part of Arizona which doesn't do Daylight Savings Time, so we had to change to Mountain Standard Time.
5. So then when we got to Lake Powell, because half of it was in Arizona and half of it was in Utah, that meant half of the park was on Mountain Daylight Time and half was on Mountain Standard Time.
6. And then we had to change to Pacific Daylight Time for our return to Las Vegas.
Things got so bad that at one point, my father stopped someone to ask them, "would you mind telling me what time it is specifically where I'm standing right now?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:02 PM on November 9, 2021 [16 favorites]
Kids schmids. I have a hard time getting up before dawn. (It either started in my 30s, or I started noticing it in my 30s, coinciding with when insufficient sleep overall started having a more noticeable effect on me?)
But I also didn't like DST when I was a kid, because of that short stretch before we went back to standard time each fall where I had to walk to school before it was properly light out(*). Those were some cold mornings.
(* People who live farther south in the US: dawn and dusk stretch out over a significantly longer time span farther north. The difference always throws me off when I'm camping in more southern areas, when I inevitably fail to leave myself sufficient daylight to set up camp.)
posted by eviemath at 1:05 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
But I also didn't like DST when I was a kid, because of that short stretch before we went back to standard time each fall where I had to walk to school before it was properly light out(*). Those were some cold mornings.
(* People who live farther south in the US: dawn and dusk stretch out over a significantly longer time span farther north. The difference always throws me off when I'm camping in more southern areas, when I inevitably fail to leave myself sufficient daylight to set up camp.)
posted by eviemath at 1:05 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
The time of year when you gaslight your pets. Hate it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:08 PM on November 9, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:08 PM on November 9, 2021 [14 favorites]
"Fall Back" is a conflicted time for me. On one hand, it's a lot easier for me to wake up at (effectively) 8:30 than 7:30; on the other hand it's now dark at 5pm, which I still have trouble dealing with even after 12 years of living in the PNW (all my previous life I'd lived in the US southeast).
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:10 PM on November 9, 2021
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:10 PM on November 9, 2021
I'm tired of hearing "but the school kids on the bus!" argument. I admit I'm a childfree person, but also school busses for kids and standing at the bus stop in the darkdarkdark for a long time is just not a thing here that I see. The kids are being driven to school or are on bikes at 7:30 a.m. same as all the adults going to work/college. Even during DST, THE LIGHT IS UP when the kids are out. You know who's driving in the darkdarkdark? The adults commuting. And frankly, it's depressing as fuck to finally get out of work and it's pitch black night and you feel like you're exhausted from the dark and all you can bear to do is go home and stuff your face like a bear preparing to hibernate instead of talking a walk (again in the darkdarkdark, which as a female means I probably shouldn't be doing that alone) or doing anything more active.
Fuck standard time, I want DST forever. I don't do a damn thing with that bright sunshine at 6:30 a.m. because I'm not leaving the house yet or am going to work in an hour and am getting ready in the house. The teenagers need more sleep but since the world insists on running on an early bird schedule, they'll never get it anyway.
Really, the whole thing is yet another example of the tyranny of the early birds over the night owls. However, it's never going to change (note, both links Washington Post).
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:13 PM on November 9, 2021 [29 favorites]
Fuck standard time, I want DST forever. I don't do a damn thing with that bright sunshine at 6:30 a.m. because I'm not leaving the house yet or am going to work in an hour and am getting ready in the house. The teenagers need more sleep but since the world insists on running on an early bird schedule, they'll never get it anyway.
Really, the whole thing is yet another example of the tyranny of the early birds over the night owls. However, it's never going to change (note, both links Washington Post).
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:13 PM on November 9, 2021 [29 favorites]
all darkness all the time pls, when it is light past 6:30 or 7 pm I feel completely unhinged.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:15 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:15 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
> I'm an "always DST/keep the same" guy.
The US spent over a year on DST nonstop, thanks to the Nixon and Ford administrations.
I'm sure life didn't change much in some parts of the country but in my experience as a schoolkid living near the Great Lakes it unequivocally sucked when all available outdoors time was in pitch darkness.
posted by ardgedee at 1:19 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
The US spent over a year on DST nonstop, thanks to the Nixon and Ford administrations.
I'm sure life didn't change much in some parts of the country but in my experience as a schoolkid living near the Great Lakes it unequivocally sucked when all available outdoors time was in pitch darkness.
posted by ardgedee at 1:19 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
it unequivocally sucked when all available outdoors time was in pitch darkness.
Check your non-vampire privilege there, my man.
(Of course, I suppose vampires would be happy to unequivocally suck.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Check your non-vampire privilege there, my man.
(Of course, I suppose vampires would be happy to unequivocally suck.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Iceland does not observe daylight saving time, presumably because in the summer there’s enough light to go around and in winter so little that it hardly matters when it comes. In fact it hardly matters when you start the day, so they gerrymander themselves into GMT to have more business hours in common with Europe.
posted by sjswitzer at 1:24 PM on November 9, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 1:24 PM on November 9, 2021 [12 favorites]
Mostly I don't see the sun rise unless I'm still up.
I am almost never up before the sun unless forced into it.
If god wanted me to see the sun rise it would have been scheduled later in the day.
Even though I'm fairly south and at the earliest the sky is dark at 6 or so I still hate it.
I have never had any animosity toward Ben Franklyn -- good stoves, he got on with French ppl, ET CET. But I've heard or read somewhere or other that this whole thing was his idea. If that is the case, I wish him ill.
Living in Florida, and then in Texas, going back to Chi was always a shock -- dark at 4:15 PM. I do not know what time the sun rises there because I'm busy hating it. But really -- dark at 4:15 PM. That's just sick. And in the summer time there it is light at 4 AM, dark maybe 9:30. That's not as bad as the stupidity of winter time jive but it's still Not Right.
I say move the time back four hours. Follow the sunset -- every day at sunset, set that as ten PM. And for all of the festive morning people, who whistle happily, or chirp like birds, or whatever other annoying thing you probably do, now you get to suffer as us Correct People have suffered this foolishness our entire lives.
I hate this jive. The worst day of the year.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:27 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
I am almost never up before the sun unless forced into it.
If god wanted me to see the sun rise it would have been scheduled later in the day.
Even though I'm fairly south and at the earliest the sky is dark at 6 or so I still hate it.
I have never had any animosity toward Ben Franklyn -- good stoves, he got on with French ppl, ET CET. But I've heard or read somewhere or other that this whole thing was his idea. If that is the case, I wish him ill.
Living in Florida, and then in Texas, going back to Chi was always a shock -- dark at 4:15 PM. I do not know what time the sun rises there because I'm busy hating it. But really -- dark at 4:15 PM. That's just sick. And in the summer time there it is light at 4 AM, dark maybe 9:30. That's not as bad as the stupidity of winter time jive but it's still Not Right.
I say move the time back four hours. Follow the sunset -- every day at sunset, set that as ten PM. And for all of the festive morning people, who whistle happily, or chirp like birds, or whatever other annoying thing you probably do, now you get to suffer as us Correct People have suffered this foolishness our entire lives.
I hate this jive. The worst day of the year.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:27 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
I need some kind of two-pole snowbirding situation where I follow the darkness...living in Iceland half the year and Antarctica the other half, or something. A snowbird who follows the snow.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:38 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:38 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
There was a recent Cautionary Tales podcast on the time, decades ago, when the UK went on permanent DST, but I can't find it. Or maybe it was 99% Invisible -- couldn't find it there either. The summary was that people wanted it then for the same reason they want it now, and it was a dismal failure then. Especially in Scotland.
My enlightment about DST came after spending a couple of weeks in Tokyo in the middle of the summer. The sun rose a little before 4 AM and set around 7 PM, and it felt like a waste of three reasonably comfortable hours before the intense heat and humidity set in were lost. Now Japan wasn't going on daylight time then (and hadn't been since the postwar sort-of occupation ended in the early 50s), and while the whole country is on a single time zone, it's also tilted off the vertical axis, meaning the sun rises way too early in some places. Like in Tokyo -- those first 3 hours of daylight were wasted on us sleepers, and it would have been nice to have more daylight after dinner.
Latitude matters. If you live somewhere between around 40 and 55 deg either side of the equator, it's great to get those longer evenings in the summer. If you're closer to the equator, the differences in the lengths of the days don't matter, and unless you're at a high altitude, you get warm weather for more than 3 or 4 months, so being able to hang around the beach or park until 10 PM isn't such a big deal. Go closer to the poles, and the days are so long in the summer, it doesn't really matter when dawn breaks. Southern Californians who've never been north of 45 don't know what a lingering summer sunset is like, the kind that can take almost an hour, when theirs is over in a few minutes. You really want those people to make policy for who live much further north?
Most of the Canadian population lives in that DST-sweet range. And if they want the kids to be able to walk to school in safety during the darker part of the year, it helps to start the day earlier. Same with most of Europe -- Spain's Costa del Sol is at the same latitude as Baltimore.
I can see the US population being split on a North-South divide, where DST is more of a nuisance in the southern states, and of course a non-negligible faction finds having to switch their clocks every six months an infringement of their rights.
Yeah, we still have 6 clocks in the house that don't change themselves. It took me less than 10 minutes to change 5 of them. I just leave the thermostat clock half-way between the two times because no one ever looks at it for the time, and it's shut during the summer anyway.
posted by morspin at 1:42 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
My enlightment about DST came after spending a couple of weeks in Tokyo in the middle of the summer. The sun rose a little before 4 AM and set around 7 PM, and it felt like a waste of three reasonably comfortable hours before the intense heat and humidity set in were lost. Now Japan wasn't going on daylight time then (and hadn't been since the postwar sort-of occupation ended in the early 50s), and while the whole country is on a single time zone, it's also tilted off the vertical axis, meaning the sun rises way too early in some places. Like in Tokyo -- those first 3 hours of daylight were wasted on us sleepers, and it would have been nice to have more daylight after dinner.
Latitude matters. If you live somewhere between around 40 and 55 deg either side of the equator, it's great to get those longer evenings in the summer. If you're closer to the equator, the differences in the lengths of the days don't matter, and unless you're at a high altitude, you get warm weather for more than 3 or 4 months, so being able to hang around the beach or park until 10 PM isn't such a big deal. Go closer to the poles, and the days are so long in the summer, it doesn't really matter when dawn breaks. Southern Californians who've never been north of 45 don't know what a lingering summer sunset is like, the kind that can take almost an hour, when theirs is over in a few minutes. You really want those people to make policy for who live much further north?
Most of the Canadian population lives in that DST-sweet range. And if they want the kids to be able to walk to school in safety during the darker part of the year, it helps to start the day earlier. Same with most of Europe -- Spain's Costa del Sol is at the same latitude as Baltimore.
I can see the US population being split on a North-South divide, where DST is more of a nuisance in the southern states, and of course a non-negligible faction finds having to switch their clocks every six months an infringement of their rights.
Yeah, we still have 6 clocks in the house that don't change themselves. It took me less than 10 minutes to change 5 of them. I just leave the thermostat clock half-way between the two times because no one ever looks at it for the time, and it's shut during the summer anyway.
posted by morspin at 1:42 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I mean, I know Europe is further North than most Americans realise, but, er:
> Southernmost border of Germany [..] the sun would rise at 10 and set at 3.
Even on the shortest day of the year, in Munich (which is the southernmost big city in Germany), the sun rises at 8am and sets at 4:25pm. Even where I live in the UK - considerably further north than Munich - the sun rises at 8:05am and sets at 3:50pm on the shortest day.
To get days as short as 10-3, you’re looking at somewhere like Alesund, Norway, a full 1,000 miles further North than Munich.
posted by parm at 1:43 PM on November 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
> Southernmost border of Germany [..] the sun would rise at 10 and set at 3.
Even on the shortest day of the year, in Munich (which is the southernmost big city in Germany), the sun rises at 8am and sets at 4:25pm. Even where I live in the UK - considerably further north than Munich - the sun rises at 8:05am and sets at 3:50pm on the shortest day.
To get days as short as 10-3, you’re looking at somewhere like Alesund, Norway, a full 1,000 miles further North than Munich.
posted by parm at 1:43 PM on November 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't give two shits about sunrise or sunset times. I just don't want to change my clocks because it's stupid.
Iceland does not observe daylight saving time
Only 70 countries still do, and that number will decrease more as countries pull their collective heads out of their asses.
Split the difference and only shift half an hour the next time, then keep it that way.
Always the correct answer.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:45 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
Iceland does not observe daylight saving time
Only 70 countries still do, and that number will decrease more as countries pull their collective heads out of their asses.
Split the difference and only shift half an hour the next time, then keep it that way.
Always the correct answer.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:45 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
I hate having to use a flash light to find after dinner walk dog poop = an entirely teal map.
posted by phunniemee at 1:46 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by phunniemee at 1:46 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I vote for 30 hour days, entirely unmoored from the solar system. Your preferences for daylight and darkness will be as common as mine, and we can get so much more done in a day. (Also, this is fun.)
posted by eotvos at 1:56 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 1:56 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
U.S. Out Of The Solar System, Now!
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 2:01 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 2:01 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I like it the way it is, because I absolutely love griping about the time change and hearing and reading other people gripe about the time change.
posted by SoberHighland at 2:24 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 2:24 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
As I understand it, most of the the scientists who've studied this stuff have said that full-time Standard Time is better for public health than full-time Daylight Savings Time.
I believe most of that scientific preference is based on studying people close to time zone lines. People on the side of the time zone where clocks tell them to wake up earlier compared to the sun have a bunch of worse health outcomes on average than people just a few miles away whose clocks tell them to wake up later compared to the sun.
posted by clawsoon at 2:30 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
I believe most of that scientific preference is based on studying people close to time zone lines. People on the side of the time zone where clocks tell them to wake up earlier compared to the sun have a bunch of worse health outcomes on average than people just a few miles away whose clocks tell them to wake up later compared to the sun.
posted by clawsoon at 2:30 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
This is the week when we haggle with our India team on which meeting times now need to change.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:30 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:30 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
To avoid the big hour time shifts, instead of changing the time an hour twice a year for the start and end of daylight savings time, we should change the time every month by ten minutes: Starting in January, six months of moving the time forward 10 minutes, and and starting in July, six months of moving the time backward 10 minutes. (/s)
posted by ShooBoo at 2:32 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ShooBoo at 2:32 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
The continued survival of Daylight Savings Time, and the likelihood that it'll be replaced by full-time DST, has convinced me that the world is ruled by a secret cabal of early risers who get up before the rest of us and pass laws that force the rest of us to bend to their will.
If you want your employees to come in at 8am, just say you want your employees to come in at 8am. Don't be a cowardly DST supporter about it.
posted by clawsoon at 2:34 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
If you want your employees to come in at 8am, just say you want your employees to come in at 8am. Don't be a cowardly DST supporter about it.
posted by clawsoon at 2:34 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've kept my clocks on DST for the past 11 years, and have gotten used to being an hour "ahead" of everyone in winter. Enjoying the 6:40 pm evening right now.
This is really no different from having lunch at 11 am, etc. But having my clocks show noon reinforces it in my head. I can easily enough do the math to work out what time people I'm interacting with are experiencing.
posted by joeyh at 2:40 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is really no different from having lunch at 11 am, etc. But having my clocks show noon reinforces it in my head. I can easily enough do the math to work out what time people I'm interacting with are experiencing.
posted by joeyh at 2:40 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
~still so fucking sleepy can we just stop it already~
posted by Space Kitty at 2:40 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 2:40 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
I walk my dog at 6:15am (what can I say? He hates everyone and everything. Nothing like a rescue!)
The morning walks when it's pitch black suck.
posted by wenestvedt at 2:45 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
The morning walks when it's pitch black suck.
posted by wenestvedt at 2:45 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I genuinely don't understand people who complain how exhausted and discombobulated they are by a 1 hour time change. Has no one ever flown from LA to Denver, or from New York to Chicago?
posted by PhineasGage at 2:50 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 2:50 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I genuinely don't understand people who complain how exhausted and discombobulated they are by a 1 hour time change. Has no one ever flown from LA to Denver, or from New York to Chicago?
My daughter's seizures are sensitive to sleep patterns. DST changes are not a great time for her.
posted by clawsoon at 2:59 PM on November 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
My daughter's seizures are sensitive to sleep patterns. DST changes are not a great time for her.
posted by clawsoon at 2:59 PM on November 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
If memory serves, a lot of the reason to shift time was to have more daylight available for farm work, which employed a huge chunk of the country.
Between automation and the demise of the family farm, plus the majority of people living in cities instead of rural, does this shift make sense anymore?
Move everything by either 90 minutes or a half hour so we're all in line with India, they have more folks so it's inconveniencing the fewest amount of people. Globally speaking.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:05 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Between automation and the demise of the family farm, plus the majority of people living in cities instead of rural, does this shift make sense anymore?
Move everything by either 90 minutes or a half hour so we're all in line with India, they have more folks so it's inconveniencing the fewest amount of people. Globally speaking.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 3:05 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't particularly care whether we go to permanent DST or permanent standard time, just pick one and stick with it.
posted by tclark at 3:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by tclark at 3:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've kept my clocks on DST for the past 11 years, and have gotten used to being an hour "ahead" of everyone in winter. Enjoying the 6:40 pm evening right now.
Wait, wut?
This would break my brain in so many ways.
posted by jeremias at 3:19 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Wait, wut?
This would break my brain in so many ways.
posted by jeremias at 3:19 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I live in AZ. Last spring I was on a project involving people in Iceland and India. AZ, Iceland, and India are all sane places that do not switch their clocks.
Unfortunately, so much of the rest of the world does, that our meetings *still* had to be renegotiated, because each of us had other meetings move. And stupid Europe+US can't even agree on *when* they're going to shift times.
At least we didn't have anyone in the southern hemisphere, then it's a real delight involving possible 2 hr discrepancies...
In short I hate DST, always have, love living somewhere without it, and would love it more if the rest of y'all could get on board.
posted by nat at 3:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, so much of the rest of the world does, that our meetings *still* had to be renegotiated, because each of us had other meetings move. And stupid Europe+US can't even agree on *when* they're going to shift times.
At least we didn't have anyone in the southern hemisphere, then it's a real delight involving possible 2 hr discrepancies...
In short I hate DST, always have, love living somewhere without it, and would love it more if the rest of y'all could get on board.
posted by nat at 3:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
As the sort of cheerful, social morning person that most folks would like to strangle, I love DST because it gets the not-morning people to wake up with me. As a systems thinker I understand it as a messy hack that we would do well to get rid of. Like clawsoon, I want to rip the veil away and expose the reality we've been enjoying this entire time: an 8-4 standard workday.
posted by Leeway at 3:28 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Leeway at 3:28 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
we've been enjoying this entire time: an 8-4 standard workday
"Enjoying." enjoying.
posted by clawsoon at 3:31 PM on November 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
"Enjoying." enjoying.
posted by clawsoon at 3:31 PM on November 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
As someone with sleep issues I'm a DST single issue voter, in that if you try to impose DST on me I will not vote for you and will donate money to your political opponent.
Also please don't change your pet's feeding time unless you have to, there's no reason pets should have to suffer like everyone else.
posted by zymil at 3:49 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also please don't change your pet's feeding time unless you have to, there's no reason pets should have to suffer like everyone else.
posted by zymil at 3:49 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Has no one ever flown from LA to Denver, or from New York to Chicago?
Wait wait is this also the thread for complaining about air travel? Because if so oh boy
posted by phunniemee at 4:03 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
Wait wait is this also the thread for complaining about air travel? Because if so oh boy
posted by phunniemee at 4:03 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
reality we've been enjoying this entire time: an 8-4 standard workday.
LOL. Enjoying. 8am is my explicitly declared start time because our fancypants bosses on the East Coast expect to see us online when THEY roll in at 9. But because ALL OF MY TEAM are either in Central with me, or in Mountain with our vendors, that means guess what: we all fuckin work til 6. So fully 2 hours more than anyone at our HQ.
In short, I don't care what people decide about DST as long as someone shoots my company into the sun.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:06 PM on November 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
LOL. Enjoying. 8am is my explicitly declared start time because our fancypants bosses on the East Coast expect to see us online when THEY roll in at 9. But because ALL OF MY TEAM are either in Central with me, or in Mountain with our vendors, that means guess what: we all fuckin work til 6. So fully 2 hours more than anyone at our HQ.
In short, I don't care what people decide about DST as long as someone shoots my company into the sun.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:06 PM on November 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
I was more indifferent, shading towards favoring lighter evenings about time switches until I started waking up for work at 6am and biking in at 7 this year (in Chicago, the east end of Central Time). For the past month almost, shit has been dark dark, like no hope for light ever again in the universe dark as I'm caffeinating and getting ready, and still pretty drab as I'm saddling up to go. It was starting to feel hallucinatory, like nothing i was doing was real, perhaps I was a ghost just making ghost coffee and taking a ghost shower, because it was so. fucking. dark.
Biking in since Sunday, however, has been a joy, because when I get up there's the real promise of light in the east, and that promise is kept by the time I roll out.
Thus, I have never been happier to revert to standard time, although the disjointed time in the evening is now making evenings surreal. 5:30pm? surely i should have eaten dinner and gone to bed by now no? But if your lifestyle commands it, CST4evah.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 4:11 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Biking in since Sunday, however, has been a joy, because when I get up there's the real promise of light in the east, and that promise is kept by the time I roll out.
Thus, I have never been happier to revert to standard time, although the disjointed time in the evening is now making evenings surreal. 5:30pm? surely i should have eaten dinner and gone to bed by now no? But if your lifestyle commands it, CST4evah.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 4:11 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I work remotely for a company on the opposite coast. My daily standups are at 6:30 am for me and it's either pitch-black or vaguely light outside. That early in the morning sunlight doesn't really matter to me but I noticed the other day that everyone else on my team had sunlight coming through their windows while I was huddled under a quilt in my desk chair still early-morning cold. This work schedule has messed up my sleep/wake times, consistent level of exhaustion and detachment from life in my timezone more than any other.
That comment might not be relevant to this thread but forgive me, I am soooo tired.
posted by bendy at 4:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
That comment might not be relevant to this thread but forgive me, I am soooo tired.
posted by bendy at 4:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
My radical proposal is permanent DST but twice as many time zones. They’re too goddamn wide!
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:32 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:32 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
> My radical proposal is permanent DST but twice as many time zones. They’re too goddamn wide!
Fuck it, let's add some east-west zones, too. Plaid!
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:41 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
Fuck it, let's add some east-west zones, too. Plaid!
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:41 PM on November 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah, our Covid pup, who wakes me up at 7 every morning has now wanted to wake me up at 6...
Who knew dogs don't understand clocks,
Nor why breakfast is so late... And dinner...
posted by Windopaene at 4:56 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Who knew dogs don't understand clocks,
Nor why breakfast is so late... And dinner...
posted by Windopaene at 4:56 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Why do parents have to see their teens off to school?
That was my reaction! Is this some new escalation of helicopter parenting I don't know about? I've never known any high schooler who wasn't capable of seeing themselves off to school.
posted by tavella at 4:57 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
That was my reaction! Is this some new escalation of helicopter parenting I don't know about? I've never known any high schooler who wasn't capable of seeing themselves off to school.
posted by tavella at 4:57 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
There are plenty of teens with disabilities who need help getting out the door. Not that that matters as far as daylight savings, but it feels weird to say that no teens do.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:05 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:05 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
kids and standing at the bus stop in the darkdarkdark for a long time is just not a thing here that I see.
Meanwhile my kid is standing in the dark at the bus stop, filled with seething resentment because Mr Corpse and I make them wear a bike light on their backpack on the walk there (in the darkdarkdark). It’s regional. And districtal.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:09 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile my kid is standing in the dark at the bus stop, filled with seething resentment because Mr Corpse and I make them wear a bike light on their backpack on the walk there (in the darkdarkdark). It’s regional. And districtal.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:09 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Since we are all talking about our pie in the sky personal wants, I want noon to be as close to solar noon as possible. That is how I orient myself, especially since moving to an apartment that has a big view of sky, and now working from home everyday. Not kidding, I hear shofar on Friday evenings from the nearby Hasidic neighborhood and write it on my calendar so I can monitor the changing sunset times. I'm getting the feeling that people in this thread want sunrise and sunset to be at the same time very day of the year.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:11 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:11 PM on November 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Now that everything runs on digital clocks that sync to central time servers, we should just dynamically adjust the length of hours, minutes, and seconds throughout the day to optimize our sunlight hours or whatever it is we're trying to do. Then the sun rises and sets at the same times every day.
posted by rodlymight at 5:17 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 5:17 PM on November 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
We shouldn't number the hours, we should letter them. Midnight GMT = A o'clock, 1 AM = B o'clock, etc. The whole world over. No time zones. People living in New York will get used to "Working N to V" while we in California know that U:30 is the latest you can be back at your desk after a long lunch without it being awkward.
Embracing the truly arbitrary nature of the labels will let us move past them! We should be arguing about when to wake up, not the numeric value we attach to that time.
(However silly this may sound to you, it was a real proposal in the late 19th century, as the need to keep train schedules synchronized forced people to actually start thinking about what time it was in other places. And it made more sense than a lot of the other solutions floating around.)
posted by mark k at 5:20 PM on November 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
Embracing the truly arbitrary nature of the labels will let us move past them! We should be arguing about when to wake up, not the numeric value we attach to that time.
(However silly this may sound to you, it was a real proposal in the late 19th century, as the need to keep train schedules synchronized forced people to actually start thinking about what time it was in other places. And it made more sense than a lot of the other solutions floating around.)
posted by mark k at 5:20 PM on November 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
People living in New York will get used to "Working N to V"
I immediately heard that in Dolly Parton's voice.
posted by clawsoon at 5:22 PM on November 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
I immediately heard that in Dolly Parton's voice.
posted by clawsoon at 5:22 PM on November 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
Now that everything runs on digital clocks that sync to central time servers, we should just dynamically adjust the length of hours, minutes, and seconds throughout the day to optimize our sunlight hours or whatever it is we're trying to do. Then the sun rises and sets at the same times every day.
I believe that's what the Japanese used to do, more-or-less.
posted by clawsoon at 5:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I believe that's what the Japanese used to do, more-or-less.
posted by clawsoon at 5:23 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
If I had a time machine to go back and strangle the guy who invented DST, would I set it for one hour ahead or one hour back?
Asking for a friend …
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:42 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Asking for a friend …
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:42 PM on November 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also the Romans IIRC. Though I bet it worked a heck of a lot better in Rome than London.
Latitude matters.
And longitude, at least in North America. People who live at opposite ends of a time zone have very different experiences of time shifts. (I actually like the idea of splitting all the Canada/US zones in half though holy crap what a lot of work). This is why this issue is pretty much impossible to rationally discuss online. Even leaving aside morning/night person personal preferences everyone's experience is wildly different just because of where they live. EG: I live far enough north that For two months of the year DST/STD doesn't matter. It is dark when I go to work and it's dark when I come home. There is like 3-4 weeks on either side where the shift gets me more light in the morning but for 2 of those weeks I'm a zombie because I've had to shift my sleep schedule.
I'm firmly on the side of IDGAF what standard we decide on just as long as it doesn't have me switching time twice a year.
Or like I had an Elder tell me: “Only a white man would believe that you could cut a foot off the top of a blanket and sew it to the bottom of a blanket and have a longer blanket.
posted by Mitheral at 5:47 PM on November 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
Latitude matters.
And longitude, at least in North America. People who live at opposite ends of a time zone have very different experiences of time shifts. (I actually like the idea of splitting all the Canada/US zones in half though holy crap what a lot of work). This is why this issue is pretty much impossible to rationally discuss online. Even leaving aside morning/night person personal preferences everyone's experience is wildly different just because of where they live. EG: I live far enough north that For two months of the year DST/STD doesn't matter. It is dark when I go to work and it's dark when I come home. There is like 3-4 weeks on either side where the shift gets me more light in the morning but for 2 of those weeks I'm a zombie because I've had to shift my sleep schedule.
I'm firmly on the side of IDGAF what standard we decide on just as long as it doesn't have me switching time twice a year.
Or like I had an Elder tell me: “Only a white man would believe that you could cut a foot off the top of a blanket and sew it to the bottom of a blanket and have a longer blanket.
posted by Mitheral at 5:47 PM on November 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
"Working N to V"
What a way to spell a livin'
(on non-preview, dammit clawsoon!)
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:12 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
What a way to spell a livin'
(on non-preview, dammit clawsoon!)
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:12 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
Surely "D to V" is likely to prove more memorable? "Get up with D" and "Go down at V".
posted by maxwelton at 6:27 PM on November 9, 2021
posted by maxwelton at 6:27 PM on November 9, 2021
Now that everything runs on digital clocks that sync to central time servers
Now I only have to add four hours to the time on the clock on my stove instead of five!
(I just woke up from my 6:30 PM nap.)
posted by bendy at 6:42 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now I only have to add four hours to the time on the clock on my stove instead of five!
(I just woke up from my 6:30 PM nap.)
posted by bendy at 6:42 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Spring forward, fuck this.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:58 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 6:58 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Can we all just use UTC, please?
You down with UTC?
Yeah, you know me.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:00 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
You down with UTC?
Yeah, you know me.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:00 PM on November 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
Also the Romans IIRC. Though I bet it worked a heck of a lot better in Rome than London.
I’ve spent some time in the Yukon. With the classic Roman 12-and-12, Whitehorse would see daylight hours of 95 minutes and change at one solstice, and then hours measuring 24 minutes and 10 seconds at the other.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:03 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I’ve spent some time in the Yukon. With the classic Roman 12-and-12, Whitehorse would see daylight hours of 95 minutes and change at one solstice, and then hours measuring 24 minutes and 10 seconds at the other.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:03 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
My dog expects his treat at the same time every day, and is always upset in the fall when he has to wait an extra hour. It's worse in the spring, though. He's happy to get a treat an hour early, but when the real time for treats comes an hour later, he doesn't understand why he's not getting one. His complaints don't end after an hour, like they do in the fall. They go on well into the night.
posted by Quonab at 7:20 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Quonab at 7:20 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
My dog expects his treat at the same time every day
Well there's your problem, you've trained your dog to expect things! Treats should always be arbitrary, randomly-timed, and inscrutable - you know, like an alleged Creator haphazardly "answering prayers".
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:29 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
Well there's your problem, you've trained your dog to expect things! Treats should always be arbitrary, randomly-timed, and inscrutable - you know, like an alleged Creator haphazardly "answering prayers".
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:29 PM on November 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
The Problem with Time and Timezones. It gets complicated very quickly.
posted by SPrintF at 7:35 PM on November 9, 2021
posted by SPrintF at 7:35 PM on November 9, 2021
There’s a Time Team episode in a cathedral in which someone demonstrates how a medieval clock was adjusted so that hours were longer in the summer and shorter in the winter (so Vespers etc came right). Adjustable flywheel, I think.
posted by clew at 7:57 PM on November 9, 2021
posted by clew at 7:57 PM on November 9, 2021
I'm firmly on the side of IDGAF what standard we decide on just as long as it doesn't have me switching time twice a year.
I completely agree: end this twice-yearly trauma. The sun does whatever it does, but we have a way to average it out nearly exactly. Just follow that.
Also, save up leap seconds for a full hour. I have no doubt that when the hour change happens it will be met with furious objections. They're right: they shouldn't have to deal with an entire hour difference. But we deal with this twice a year, so STFU whiny future people.
posted by netowl at 9:38 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I completely agree: end this twice-yearly trauma. The sun does whatever it does, but we have a way to average it out nearly exactly. Just follow that.
Also, save up leap seconds for a full hour. I have no doubt that when the hour change happens it will be met with furious objections. They're right: they shouldn't have to deal with an entire hour difference. But we deal with this twice a year, so STFU whiny future people.
posted by netowl at 9:38 PM on November 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, save up leap seconds for a full hour
It is but a modest proposal.
posted by wierdo at 10:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
It is but a modest proposal.
posted by wierdo at 10:14 PM on November 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Arjen Lubach ( known for America First - The Netherlands Second) has opinions about permanent summertime in the Netherlands (English subtitles are available).
posted by Pendragon at 1:59 AM on November 10, 2021
posted by Pendragon at 1:59 AM on November 10, 2021
Keep it or end it or make it permanent, just spell it right! “Daylight Saving Time”, not “Savings”. This post misspells it even though the linked page is correct!
posted by nicwolff at 3:23 AM on November 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 3:23 AM on November 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Daylights Saving Time
posted by clawsoon at 4:12 AM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 4:12 AM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
Abolish DST and time zones. Go with solar noon everywhere. That way you could tell what time it just by looking up. Use GPS and computers to keep track of the chaos, yay! Also chaos, yay!
posted by surlyben at 4:16 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 4:16 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think it's notable that if you set sunrise to a perfectly reasonable 7 am and sunset to perfectly reasonable 6 pm in the FPP link, most of the country in terms of area appears in the "abolish DST" zone, but so many major cities that control stuff are in the comparatively narrow bands of the "make no change" zone. As long as folks in NYC, Philadelphia, DC, Chicago, and Denver are happy, those of us in Atlanta are probably just out of luck (unless we can just get ourselves added to Central time).
posted by hydropsyche at 4:41 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:41 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I need some kind of two-pole snowbirding situation where I follow the darkness...living in Iceland half the year and Antarctica the other half, or something. A snowbird who follows the snow.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:38 PM on November 9
I'm not sure if this is a thing anymore (I used to have my attention more attuned to the folk-rock scene) and there was (perhaps still is) an informal Austin-Boston thing, many musicians would start showing up back in Austin in the Autumn, when Boston is already buried in hundreds of thousands feet of ice and snow, but then they'd demonstrate common sense and get the hell out of here as springtime turns Austin into a blast-furnace death-zone.
posted by dancestoblue at 5:58 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:38 PM on November 9
I'm not sure if this is a thing anymore (I used to have my attention more attuned to the folk-rock scene) and there was (perhaps still is) an informal Austin-Boston thing, many musicians would start showing up back in Austin in the Autumn, when Boston is already buried in hundreds of thousands feet of ice and snow, but then they'd demonstrate common sense and get the hell out of here as springtime turns Austin into a blast-furnace death-zone.
posted by dancestoblue at 5:58 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Very interesting and informative Gripe Assistant.
My first reaction was covered by nicwolff. My second reaction seems to have been covered by rodlymight. That leaves me with just one other suggestion:
Just correct the earth's axis from 23.5° to 0°. Probably could by done with nuclear weapons.
posted by MtDewd at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
My first reaction was covered by nicwolff. My second reaction seems to have been covered by rodlymight. That leaves me with just one other suggestion:
Just correct the earth's axis from 23.5° to 0°. Probably could by done with nuclear weapons.
posted by MtDewd at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, what's going on when I set sunrise to 6Am, sunset to 8PM, and sunrise and sunset as equally important? Polka dots? Is that a bug or something real?
posted by MtDewd at 6:13 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by MtDewd at 6:13 AM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
there was (perhaps still is) an informal Austin-Boston thing,
Started by late comedic character actor and sitcom mainstay Tom Poston.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:43 AM on November 10, 2021
Started by late comedic character actor and sitcom mainstay Tom Poston.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:43 AM on November 10, 2021
Fuck it, let's add some east-west zones, too. Plaid!
This is kind of what Australia does in the summer They have three time zones in the winter (+8, +9:30, and +10) but then the two easternmost zones have daylight savings time only in the southern part.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:13 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is kind of what Australia does in the summer They have three time zones in the winter (+8, +9:30, and +10) but then the two easternmost zones have daylight savings time only in the southern part.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:13 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I genuinely don't understand people who complain how exhausted and discombobulated they are by a 1 hour time change. Has no one ever flown from LA to Denver, or from New York to Chicago?
I mean yes a one hour time change is also slightly annoying when traveling, although seems like less of an unforced error.
posted by grouse at 8:44 AM on November 10, 2021
I mean yes a one hour time change is also slightly annoying when traveling, although seems like less of an unforced error.
posted by grouse at 8:44 AM on November 10, 2021
The point at which I stopped grumbling about DST was when I looked at timeanddate.com for my town and realized that if we abolish DST and don't spring forward, we would have the sun rising just after 4am in June, which I'm sure the 5am Zumba crowd would greatly appreciate, but for everybody else who normally gets up after 6 or 7am, whuf.
And on the flip side, if we stayed on DST year round, the sun wouldn't be up until 8:30 in late December and early January? Double whuf.
I don't know how the European latitudes deal with it, it's bad enough at 43N. I mean, Edinburgh has those times with DST. Yow.
I mean, don't get me wrong, the _ideal_ course of events would be for everybody to work second shift so we had all day to ourselves (after sleeping in until whenever), and could work in our employer's air conditioned offices during the heat of the afternoon / dark of the winter night.
posted by Kyol at 10:47 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
And on the flip side, if we stayed on DST year round, the sun wouldn't be up until 8:30 in late December and early January? Double whuf.
I don't know how the European latitudes deal with it, it's bad enough at 43N. I mean, Edinburgh has those times with DST. Yow.
I mean, don't get me wrong, the _ideal_ course of events would be for everybody to work second shift so we had all day to ourselves (after sleeping in until whenever), and could work in our employer's air conditioned offices during the heat of the afternoon / dark of the winter night.
posted by Kyol at 10:47 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
If we abolished the time changes, regardless of whether we settled on Daylight or Standard time going forward, I'd eventually expect businesses to adjust their operating hours based on local conditions. This is, at least in my limited experience, something I have seen in places that don't observe DST changes: some businesses that are sensitive to light/darkness just maintain different hours in the winter (generally shorter), than in the summer.
This sounds like a pretty reasonable solution to me. It's kind of a weird "solution" to artificially shift the time back and forth, just to allow people to keep an arbitrary 9-5 schedule or whatever.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:13 AM on November 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
This sounds like a pretty reasonable solution to me. It's kind of a weird "solution" to artificially shift the time back and forth, just to allow people to keep an arbitrary 9-5 schedule or whatever.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:13 AM on November 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Isn't it true that many people who want to get rid of DST have it backwards, and when questioned, really want to get rid of standard time? Pretty sure this happens a lot.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:18 AM on November 10, 2021
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:18 AM on November 10, 2021
This is, at least in my limited experience, something I have seen in places that don't observe DST changes: some businesses that are sensitive to light/darkness just maintain different hours in the winter (generally shorter), than in the summer.
This sounds like a pretty reasonable solution to me.
If you have to arrange childcare, school pickups and drop-offs, and some businesses and organisations are changing their hours but not others, this becomes a nightmare.
The thing about Daylight Savings is that it works as a pretty good compromise for many different groups of people. If you don't care about long summer evenings to play sports or barbecue or do outdoor stuff, standard time all year round is fine... for you. If you don't have kids walking or cycling to school and don't want to do early morning runs in daylight for safety, summer time all year round is fine... for you. If you don't have to synchronise multiple people with different jobs schedules, changing business hours ad hoc is fine... for you.
But all the alternatives to Daylight Savings greatly inconvenience large groups of people.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:27 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
This sounds like a pretty reasonable solution to me.
If you have to arrange childcare, school pickups and drop-offs, and some businesses and organisations are changing their hours but not others, this becomes a nightmare.
The thing about Daylight Savings is that it works as a pretty good compromise for many different groups of people. If you don't care about long summer evenings to play sports or barbecue or do outdoor stuff, standard time all year round is fine... for you. If you don't have kids walking or cycling to school and don't want to do early morning runs in daylight for safety, summer time all year round is fine... for you. If you don't have to synchronise multiple people with different jobs schedules, changing business hours ad hoc is fine... for you.
But all the alternatives to Daylight Savings greatly inconvenience large groups of people.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:27 AM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know, I imagine that Saskatchewaners/Icelanders aren't falling to pieces in their DST-less regimes.
posted by sagc at 11:36 AM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:36 AM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you're far enough North, an hour's Daylight Savings isn't enough to make much difference. In Reykjavik in December daytime is 10:47 to 15:46. You're not going to get a daylight early morning run in before work anyhow. And in July it's 03:06 to 23:55, plenty of time for outdoor stuff in the evenings.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:05 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:05 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
In fact, if you live in Lloydminster, you have the joys of your city being not only two different time zones (they've committed to Mountain Time) but also in two different DST jurisdictions. Since they're on the western edge of the province, it makes sense they aren't just sticking with CST all year long like the rest of Saskatchewan.
posted by sagc at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:19 PM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I still say time zones need to die.
posted by flabdablet at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 1:06 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
If memory serves, a lot of the reason to shift time was to have more daylight available for farm work, which employed a huge chunk of the country.
See, this has never made a lick of sense to me. If you're working on a farm and want to maximize the daylight, wouldn't you just get up at first light, regardless of what the clock says? It's not like shifting the clock magically makes more sunlight available.
posted by zoetrope at 1:46 PM on November 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
See, this has never made a lick of sense to me. If you're working on a farm and want to maximize the daylight, wouldn't you just get up at first light, regardless of what the clock says? It's not like shifting the clock magically makes more sunlight available.
posted by zoetrope at 1:46 PM on November 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
But all the alternatives to Daylight Savings greatly inconvenience large groups of people.
And shifting twice a year kills people. Both directly via things like auto accidents and indirectly via stress and lack of sleep.
Shifting may make sense for mid latitude America. It's bloody idiotic for most places in Canada. It's why BC has voted to abolish it; if we can just get Washington to go along. A condition which I also find irrational.
posted by Mitheral at 1:57 PM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
And shifting twice a year kills people. Both directly via things like auto accidents and indirectly via stress and lack of sleep.
Shifting may make sense for mid latitude America. It's bloody idiotic for most places in Canada. It's why BC has voted to abolish it; if we can just get Washington to go along. A condition which I also find irrational.
posted by Mitheral at 1:57 PM on November 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wait, what?! Canada needs to get the US to agree to a time change?!?!
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:04 PM on November 10, 2021
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:04 PM on November 10, 2021
It's not like shifting the clock magically makes more sunlight available.
Quite so. But sunlight shifts on its own, and since GPS modules and microcontrollers can both be had for less than a buck apiece, I can see no good reason why if we're going to have clocks at all, we shouldn't have clocks that read 06:00:00 at WGS84-ellipsoid sunrise, all year round, no matter where on Earth you put them.
posted by flabdablet at 2:11 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Quite so. But sunlight shifts on its own, and since GPS modules and microcontrollers can both be had for less than a buck apiece, I can see no good reason why if we're going to have clocks at all, we shouldn't have clocks that read 06:00:00 at WGS84-ellipsoid sunrise, all year round, no matter where on Earth you put them.
posted by flabdablet at 2:11 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Wait, what?! Canada needs to get the US to agree to a time change?!?!
Ontario is also doing the “we will if you will” perpetual DST with New York and Quebec.
posted by rodlymight at 2:23 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ontario is also doing the “we will if you will” perpetual DST with New York and Quebec.
posted by rodlymight at 2:23 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
My opinion is that clock noon should be close to solar noon year-round in the middle of the time zone. I strongly dislike proposals that push solar noon past 1 PM all year.
posted by inexorably_forward at 3:17 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by inexorably_forward at 3:17 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
May I ask why? Personally, sunrise and sunset times affect me much more than the timing of solar noon.
posted by mbrubeck at 3:33 PM on November 10, 2021
posted by mbrubeck at 3:33 PM on November 10, 2021
The wildly different preferences and opinions in this thread, which is (at least in theory) filled with intelligent and reasonably similar-minded people, is pretty clear evidence of why this is never going to be "fixed"...
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:38 PM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:38 PM on November 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Wait, what?! Canada needs to get the US to agree to a time change?!?!
I mean, not...legally? But BC and Washington are pretty geographically tight and a lot of folks cross that border on the regular, it would make sense for them to be on a coordinated clock.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:38 PM on November 10, 2021
I mean, not...legally? But BC and Washington are pretty geographically tight and a lot of folks cross that border on the regular, it would make sense for them to be on a coordinated clock.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:38 PM on November 10, 2021
The wildly different preferences and opinions in this thread, which is (at least in theory) filled with intelligent and reasonably similar-minded people, is pretty clear evidence of why this is never going to be "fixed"...
The solution is fixed by abolishing clock changes as quickly as possible and letting people do what the fuck they want after that. Move school starts to the right time, which I think everyone but the adults responsible for it agree would be 'later.' Milk cows when they're ready to be milked, not whenever suburban LA decided 7am is. Eat lunch when you're hungry, not at precisely noon in precise lockstep with every other person trying to order katsu curry.
The purpose of standard time is coordination between different parts of the globe; any problem listed here that doesn't involve a good deal of distance is solving the wrong problem at the wrong scope.
posted by pwnguin at 4:04 PM on November 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
The solution is fixed by abolishing clock changes as quickly as possible and letting people do what the fuck they want after that. Move school starts to the right time, which I think everyone but the adults responsible for it agree would be 'later.' Milk cows when they're ready to be milked, not whenever suburban LA decided 7am is. Eat lunch when you're hungry, not at precisely noon in precise lockstep with every other person trying to order katsu curry.
The purpose of standard time is coordination between different parts of the globe; any problem listed here that doesn't involve a good deal of distance is solving the wrong problem at the wrong scope.
posted by pwnguin at 4:04 PM on November 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: (at least in theory) filled with intelligent and reasonably similar-minded people
posted by nickmark at 4:13 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by nickmark at 4:13 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you're working on a farm and want to maximize the daylight, wouldn't you just get up at first light, regardless of what the clock says?
Remembering some grandad stories, it was helpful for school start to move later because he had to milk before school, and the cows weren’t really up before dawn, and if the school schedule didn’t adapt he would have had no bus and then no school.
posted by clew at 4:18 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Remembering some grandad stories, it was helpful for school start to move later because he had to milk before school, and the cows weren’t really up before dawn, and if the school schedule didn’t adapt he would have had no bus and then no school.
posted by clew at 4:18 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Walking with my kids to the school bus has been much more pleasant since the time change. The sun is a bit higher in the sky and it is a bit warmer out too. It'll still be cold and dark soon enough but I'm enjoying this while I can.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:38 PM on November 10, 2021
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:38 PM on November 10, 2021
Wait, what?! Canada needs to get the US to agree to a time change?!?!
I believe Mitheral means Washington-the-state-with-Seattle-in-it not Washington-as -metonymy-for-the-federal-government. I don’t know the situation on the west coast but here in Ontario, as mentioned by rodlymight, the provincial government had said “ready when you are” to our two biggest neighbours.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:44 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I believe Mitheral means Washington-the-state-with-Seattle-in-it not Washington-as -metonymy-for-the-federal-government. I don’t know the situation on the west coast but here in Ontario, as mentioned by rodlymight, the provincial government had said “ready when you are” to our two biggest neighbours.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:44 PM on November 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Washington-the-state needs Washington-meaning-US-Congress to approve the change, so it works in either sense.
posted by clew at 7:57 PM on November 10, 2021
posted by clew at 7:57 PM on November 10, 2021
Yes. BC won't make a change presently unless Washington the state makes the change.
posted by Mitheral at 11:35 PM on November 10, 2021
posted by Mitheral at 11:35 PM on November 10, 2021
ARG. I hate going back to British Standard Time, so I can use the gripes, thanks.
The arguments here in the press in the UK were always 'think of the children in the north of Scotland going to school'. I WAS that child (in Aberdeen at 57.14 degrees north, similar to Sitka, Alaska) and it was freaking dark ANYWAY. Would much rather have a sliver of light after 15.30!
posted by sedimentary_deer at 12:44 AM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
The arguments here in the press in the UK were always 'think of the children in the north of Scotland going to school'. I WAS that child (in Aberdeen at 57.14 degrees north, similar to Sitka, Alaska) and it was freaking dark ANYWAY. Would much rather have a sliver of light after 15.30!
posted by sedimentary_deer at 12:44 AM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
And shifting twice a year kills people. Both directly via things like auto accidents and indirectly via stress and lack of sleep.
There's a meta-study here that doesn't find a conclusive difference:
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:22 AM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
There's a meta-study here that doesn't find a conclusive difference:
Findings: Twenty-four studies met the inclusion criteria. Seventeen examined the short-term impact of transitions around DST and 12 examined long-term effects. Findings from the short-term studies were inconsistent. The long-term findings suggested a positive effect of DST. However, this cannot be attributed solely to DST, as a range of road collision risk factors vary over time.It's not straightforward to analyse because the benefits of DST are greatest for pedestrians and cyclists. So you can't just look at statistics for motor vehicles, e.g. from insurance company data, to get a definite conclusion.
Interpretation: The evidence from this review cannot support or refute the assertion that a permanent shift in light from morning to evening will have a road safety benefit...
Of the nine studies that analysed DST effects on different types of road users, the beneficial effects of DST were most pronounced for pedestrians and cyclists. In one study, the estimated effects of retaining DST approximated 13% fewer pedestrian fatalities and 3% fewer vehicle occupant fatalities.The collision risk posed to pedestrians following the transition back to ST was found to be greater than that for motor vehicle occupants.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:22 AM on November 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
(I live in Atlanta. We should be on Central time.)
Hello, fellow person of wisdom. My friends have to hear my rant about how Atlanta should be in Central time every time we change the clocks.
Atlanta used to be in Central Time Zone until 1941. What went wrong?
posted by Fleebnork at 5:33 AM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Hello, fellow person of wisdom. My friends have to hear my rant about how Atlanta should be in Central time every time we change the clocks.
Atlanta used to be in Central Time Zone until 1941. What went wrong?
posted by Fleebnork at 5:33 AM on November 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Maybe Swatch Time wasn't such a bad idea after all?
posted by sriracha at 5:58 AM on November 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by sriracha at 5:58 AM on November 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
There's a meta-study here that doesn't find a conclusive difference:
That meta analysis makes the mistake of lumping in DST studies from a wide range of latitudes. So sure mid latitude USA DST lighting level safety over the course of a winter might compensate for everyone driving to work impaired by lack of sleep for a couple weeks but the benefits are much shorter lived at my latitude (and most of Canada) while the negative effects are the same.
Also though it's the example I used it's not just driving accidents we should be worried about. Industrial accidents also tick upward when people are tired and there isn't any corresponding compensation created by better lighting.
There is a bit of sunk cost/inertia to this debate. If DST wasn't previously a thing I can't imagine it getting any traction at all if proposed today. Cripes just the cost of programming billions of computer systems to handle it would be a serious strike against it.
It is hilarious reading the history of DST and the proponents for and against. There is quite a bit of puritanical "people should be up and working at dawn" behind the concept and even American presidents being in favour so they could get more golf in. Which if you think there would be anyone who could adjust their personal schedule irregardless of clock time it would be a President. Also despite what I thought farmers were against it. But it makes sense if we think about mixed farming that was more prevalent a hundred years ago. As annoying as a single cat being put off its schedule is it must be a couple orders of magnitude more annoying to deal with a horse, a couple pigs, a handful of cows, a flock of chickens, maybe some ducks or rabbits and a couple working dogs all complaining about the late breakfast.
posted by Mitheral at 8:49 AM on November 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
That meta analysis makes the mistake of lumping in DST studies from a wide range of latitudes. So sure mid latitude USA DST lighting level safety over the course of a winter might compensate for everyone driving to work impaired by lack of sleep for a couple weeks but the benefits are much shorter lived at my latitude (and most of Canada) while the negative effects are the same.
Also though it's the example I used it's not just driving accidents we should be worried about. Industrial accidents also tick upward when people are tired and there isn't any corresponding compensation created by better lighting.
There is a bit of sunk cost/inertia to this debate. If DST wasn't previously a thing I can't imagine it getting any traction at all if proposed today. Cripes just the cost of programming billions of computer systems to handle it would be a serious strike against it.
It is hilarious reading the history of DST and the proponents for and against. There is quite a bit of puritanical "people should be up and working at dawn" behind the concept and even American presidents being in favour so they could get more golf in. Which if you think there would be anyone who could adjust their personal schedule irregardless of clock time it would be a President. Also despite what I thought farmers were against it. But it makes sense if we think about mixed farming that was more prevalent a hundred years ago. As annoying as a single cat being put off its schedule is it must be a couple orders of magnitude more annoying to deal with a horse, a couple pigs, a handful of cows, a flock of chickens, maybe some ducks or rabbits and a couple working dogs all complaining about the late breakfast.
posted by Mitheral at 8:49 AM on November 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Eh, but, Mitheral, the animals didn't change in my grandad's experience. They didn't change their response to sunup and sundown. The clocks changed so that farm kids could still tend the animals.
posted by clew at 12:11 PM on November 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 12:11 PM on November 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
« Older Doing Real Politics | Consciousness simulacra and a dusty mirror Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:17 PM on November 9, 2021 [17 favorites]