What Everyone Gets Wrong About the Beatles.
November 12, 2021 11:31 PM   Subscribe

McCartney’s recently published two-volume set The Lyrics, a gorgeous work. All told, the collection spans north of 800 pages and collects the lyrics to 154 McCartney songs. Paul McCartney has been one of the most famous people on earth for nearly 60 years, and in many ways, he has served as the best model of how to be a celebrity: He’s disarmingly amiable, boundlessly energetic, gracious and graceful in the face of unimaginable fame. McCartney has written and published a beautiful book, yet another gift from this talented man.

The Slate writer played a pretty lame angle "Paul was a better songwriter than John Lennon, George Harrison, and Ringo Starr put together." Seems nonsense to me but hey, I'm not the one looking for clicks.
posted by dancestoblue (71 comments total) 16 users marked this as a favorite
 
I do think that Lennon was probably the better craftsman of lyrics, but McCartney had other gifts which he did make the most of, most remarkably his ability to put himself in the shoes of people very different from himself. His story-songs are incredible, lyrically."Rocky Raccoon", "Paperback Writer" and "She's Leaving Home" all spring to mind.

Though the greatest is probably "Eleanor Rigby", who, for example, Allen Ginsberg was hugely impressed by. I had a Beatles documentary on VHS when I was a kid, and if I remember correctly he said something to the effect that the song was like a Thomas Hardy novel compressed into three verses, and then projected into the lives of the listeners by the chorus "all the lonely people, where do they all come from".
posted by Kattullus at 12:48 AM on November 13, 2021 [17 favorites]


Paul may be the better songwriter, but he didn't write the best Beatles song.
posted by Pendragon at 12:56 AM on November 13, 2021 [4 favorites]


While googling "Allen Ginsberg" and "Eleanor Rigby", unsuccessfully looking for that clip, which I think was from a BBC documentary, I came across this diary entry by Ginsberg about visiting Ezra Pound. Here's an excerpt with the relevant bits:
“10/22/67 –
Going to Pound’s house – how old? – “How old are you, old man?” I said, several wines and a stick of pot midway between meal. “82 in several days”, he said. That’s all he said – all day with the Italian Ivancich speaking of the Afric desert simultaneous – and I smoked at front of fire, smoked and spoke, and no one reproved me in Venice – perfect balanced, the consciousness – played him “Eleanor Rigby” and “Yellow Submarine”, and Dylan’s “Sad Eyed Lady of The Lowlands” and “Gates of Eden” and “Where Are You Tonight Sweet Marie?” and Donovan’s “Sunshine Superman”. I gave Pound Beatles, Dylan, Donovan – the experts suave and velvet for Futurity – I walked out Vivo (sic) where meets the Grand Canal. I gave Beatles, gave Dylan, gave Donovan – to listen? Forever – tomorrow give Ali Akbar Khan“.
[added later] – “(Above note written blind drunk Sun. night 1 a.m returning from Harry’s Bar)
What follows is sober recapitulation days later of what happened Oct. 22. All afternoon, lunch and wine and afternoon conversation with Ivancich visiting and Pound silent. I lit a stick of grass at lunch and smoked it, saying nothing about it. Later high, as I played him music; he had come upstairs swiftly when I asked him to listen, and folded self in chair, silent hands crossed on lap, picking at skin, absorbed – occasionally with a slight smile – at “Eleanor Rigby” “No one was saved” and “Sweet Marie” “six white horses/ that you promised me/were finally delivered down to the Penitentiary”. I repeated the words aloud, in fragments – for him to hear clearly. So he sat, “Is this all too much electric noise?” He smiled and sat still. “I just want you to hear this other” and I continued playing,”Gates of Eden”, and even “Yellow Submarine”. Sat there all along, I, drunk, he, impassive, earnest, attentive,a smile.
The sixties were a weird time.
posted by Kattullus at 1:00 AM on November 13, 2021 [25 favorites]


I don't know exactly why, but the fact that the deceptively clickbaity title and melodramatic opening paragraph (which have become fairly standard for Slate and similar sites) felt like they belonged to a completely different article is particularly jarring and grating with this piece. And is it really some kind of "truth universally acknowledged" that most people think John was a better lyricist than Paul? If it is, this is the first I've heard of it. That's like saying odes are intrinsically better than pastorals, or that chocolate ice cream clearly tastes better than vanilla.

That said, I would love a copy of the book. It sounds delightful.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:31 AM on November 13, 2021 [6 favorites]


And is it really some kind of "truth universally acknowledged" that most people think John was a better lyricist than Paul? If it is, this is the first I've heard of it.

Yeah, I was under the impression that the consensus was that John and Paul working together were legendary, but working separately their weaknesses overwhelmed their strengths.
posted by Merus at 1:44 AM on November 13, 2021 [14 favorites]


Excerpts from the book in the New Yorker
Paul McCartney: Inside the Songs 10 episodes on the BBC (YouTube version)
posted by Lanark at 1:49 AM on November 13, 2021 [9 favorites]


I’ve always felt that this five-minute clip from a music documentary, which captures the Beatles discussing their art at an ashram in India, very effectively lays bare the tensions over songwriting between the four of them.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 2:18 AM on November 13, 2021 [13 favorites]


It has taken me long years to get over the contempt I felt for McCartney after he wrote, recorded, then foisted upon us "Some ppl want to fill the world with silly love songs / What's wrong with that? / I need to know / Cuz here I go / Again!"

What's wrong with that? Really? I mean; Really? ... Everything is wrong with that, you dumbo, you poltroon, you big, fat, bleeding hemorrhoid. How in the world could anyone this side of Bo Donaldson and The Heywoods not know what is wrong with that horses ass garbage? Which led me to thinking that McCartney is perhaps *not* on this side of ol' Bo Donaldson, and that he was perhaps a big fan of The Captain and Tenille, also...

I put up a post here 12 years ago, saying - and feeling it, too -- that I was gassed about a single he released and a forth-coming album. And the whole album was not great but it was pretty damn fine. IMO;YMMV If you're up for a laugh or two, read the absolute Paul hatred and contempt in that threat.

My understanding is that the McCartney loathing didn't run near as deep in Europe as it has done here this side of the pond, that he and his lovely wife were about as close to royalty that celebrity can bring you. Loved and admired, not deities but definitely stars shining bright in the firmament.

~~~~~

He's had a great life. He's contributed greatly to my life, he's somewhat prominent in the sound-track that's played over and again. When I wrote what I did when framing this post I really meant it -- he has given us many gifts. I'm awfully glad that I got to be alive while his music, and the music of his youthful friends playing with them. Even if for nothing else, those young men seemed as gods to me. I still want a pair of Beatle boots, with the zipper running the length of the boot. I've done nothing in my life to have anyone want to make boots for my feet, and have them always out of stock, which is still pretty much the case today.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:12 AM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


Though the greatest is probably "Eleanor Rigby", who, for example, Allen Ginsberg was hugely impressed by.

The economy with which McCartney sketches out a whole life in this song is remarkable. But it wasn't until I read some of the press coverage spawned by this book that it truly struck me what an bleak song it is. "No-one will hear," "nobody there", "nobody came", "no-one was saved" - and yet McCartney manages to make the song an exercise in gentle empathy rather than nihilistic despair.

My understanding is that the McCartney loathing didn't run near as deep in Europe

Depends what you mean by Europe. For years there was prominent piece of graffiti on the London underground which read "Mark Chapman shot the wrong bloke". No-one imagined that might refer to Ringo or George.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:51 AM on November 13, 2021 [13 favorites]


More McCartney lyrics here
posted by mecran01 at 4:23 AM on November 13, 2021


Certainly John's immediate post-Beatles solo work is much more respected than Paul's. But it always runs in cycles: sometimes Pop Music is the thing, sometimes Serious Music is more in vogue. I'm just not a pop guy. Paul could do both with the Beatles. Eleanor RIgby, as mentioned above, Blackbird, Let it Be, etc. But his post-Beatles attempts at Serious Music always veer too deep into saccharine for me. Maybe there's good stuff in there and you only hear the poppy stuff, I don't know.
posted by rikschell at 4:47 AM on November 13, 2021 [1 favorite]


Fun fact abt Elenor Rigby, Cisqo sampled the violins for "The Thong Song" (though I believe the sample was changed before the song's release).
posted by subdee at 5:03 AM on November 13, 2021 [3 favorites]


I had an obsession with Paul and Linda a few years ago, and Ram has always been one of my all time favorite albums. I hated Wings with an absolute passion - a lot of really awful pop crap came out of them. I hate Live and Let Die as much as dancestoblue hates Silly Love Songs, which I also hate. But recently I started venturing in to listening to Wings, wondering when it went wrong after Ram, and I actually like most of the stuff that wasn't a pop hit.

My pet theory about Paul McCartney is that he is gifted in many things - energy, charisma, unshakable ego, and a supernatural ability to crank out songs almost without thinking - or at least he makes it appear that way. There are bad songs, good songs and great songs scattered all over but his output has been immense.

John, apparently, was cursed with self-doubt, self-destruction and labored over his song-writing, and then he was killed. I wish we could have seen what kind of person he would have turned into.

Also, I've always hated the Paul or John question. Why not both? Together and apart.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:13 AM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


In the entry on “She Came in Through the Bathroom Window,” he recalls having a synaesthetic relation to days of the week as a child, associating each with a certain color, to which he attributes his tendency to personify days in his songwriting

Well, that's going to require a re-listen of "Eight Days a Week".
posted by credulous at 5:20 AM on November 13, 2021 [8 favorites]


I've always found the "who was the greatest" question baffling. Within the Beatles it is silly, there was clearly a John/Paul partnership which, unfairly, crowded out George. After the Beatles I don't think either John or Paul was as good as they were together, so George.
posted by epo at 5:38 AM on November 13, 2021 [10 favorites]


Well, that's going to require a re-listen of "Eight Days a Week".

He does have a curious fondness for days of the week in his songwriting. Without even trying, or even being a particular fan of his lyrics, my mind instantly mashed up, “Sunday’s on the phone to Monday,/Tuesday afternoon is neverending,/Wednesday morning at five o’clock as the day begins.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2021 [3 favorites]


Certainly their motivations were/are different. Paul is a working musician, he's put out at least three albums every decade and performed hundreds of shows. It's hard to speculate what John and Yoko would have done after Double Fantasy, but I doubt putting together an endlessly touring hit machine was in the cards.

But it does underscore the tragedy and randomness of John's murder -- that album was a pivotal part of that day, in that the murderer got John's autograph on that album, had been listening to the songs, and the couple was returning from a recording session when John was shot. One could speculate that Paul might have been the target had John's musical comeback not drawn the murderer's attention.
posted by credulous at 6:38 AM on November 13, 2021 [2 favorites]


This sounds great but I unfortunately hit my lifetime McCartney limit about fifteen years ago, so I'm unable to look at it.
posted by jabah at 7:18 AM on November 13, 2021 [4 favorites]


so George.

This is the true answer to who was the best solo Beatle. All Things Must Pass is a masterwork. I don't know how they ended up with THREE geniuses in one band, or how George managed to stay sane for so long while his writing was mostly sidelined.

But then, he was the first to actually quit the band, though he did return.
posted by erinfern at 7:24 AM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


It has taken me long years to get over the contempt I felt for McCartney after he wrote, recorded, then foisted upon us "Some ppl want to fill the world with silly love songs / What's wrong with that? / I need to know / Cuz here I go / Again!"

My first-year college roommate insisted that the only way he could fall asleep was to put on Wings Greatest and let it play.

He'd always start snoring around "Uncle Albert / Admiral Halsey" and that permanently locked in my disdain for post-Beatles McCartney.

So... I hear you.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2021 [2 favorites]


contempt I felt for McCartney after he wrote, recorded, then foisted upon us "Some ppl want to fill the world with silly love songs..."
My parents took us to Lake Tahoe for a vacation stay in those lakeside condos on the S Shore in June 1976 . . .

Guess which song on the radio is the only one I can remember from that trip!
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:39 AM on November 13, 2021


For me the Beatles were great. McCartney, so so. Until I read about his interests and pursuits to explore 50’s and 60’s electronic music. He would bring Stockhausen records to the studio and played them for the boys. This was mid 60’s I think. Being one of those weirdos who loves this kind of music I was impressed. Revolution #9, though mainly a Lennon production, I like to think that McCartney was the inspiration. Pop music, not my cup of tea (see above), has a definite spectrum, mostly copycats. Thanks also to the fifth Beatle, George Martin, they were also cutting edge pop music.
posted by njohnson23 at 8:45 AM on November 13, 2021 [4 favorites]


I'm just 3 degrees of separation from McCartney: my barber lived for a few years in Astoria, Oregon where he was the barber for Krist Novoselic, who has played gigs with McCartney.
posted by neuron at 9:07 AM on November 13, 2021 [6 favorites]


deceptively clickbaity title and melodramatic opening paragraph

Slate gonna Slate
posted by thelonius at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


Kattullus' Pound observation is accute for the influencing dynamics of narrative, text having an upon generations of artists. weird is the word for it. today someone might wonder, why the f*** would you go visit Ezra Pound, the old geezers a traitor. it's quite accurate that pound really didn't say anything so I really can't imagine him having a lot of images during Eleanor Rigby. sometime late in the week pound, Ginsberg, and a few others were the local restaurant in Venice and Ginsburg question pound about various Venetian landmarks within the cantos that he couldn't spot. he leaned over to pound and said quote your thoughts about specific perceptions and Williams quote no ideas but in things unquote have been a great help to me and many young poets and the phrasing of your poems have been of concrete value for me as reference points for my own perceptions. am I making sense unquote.
yes pound said but my poems don't make sense.
Ginsburg and others then assured the poet that his work made sense.
a lot of double talk pound snapped the phone said bunting told me that there was too little presentation in the Cantos and too much reference that I referred to things without presenting them and bunting told me Ginsburg countered that the cantos are model the economy and presentation of sensory phenomena via words they're all ground which we can walk upon.
a mess all around said Pound. Ginsburg replied what you or the cantos or me? Pound said my writing, stupidity and ignorance all the way through stupidity and ignorance.
at weeks end when Ginsburg took his leave, he leaned over and kissed him on the right cheek and pound was greatly moved and pound turned to him and said I should have been able to do better, stepped across the threshold and was gone from sight.

Kinda like Pounds love of Henri Gaudier-Brzeska, how he'd hang about, admired him and later, Pounds mad grief when Gaudier-Brzeska was killed in combat in the first world war.
The White Album was in my divorce list of assets divided. I guess it was 1974 into 75 that I first listened to the Beatles. my cousins played them for me and like any good music it sort of changes you. Rocky raccoon remains my favorite.
posted by clavdivs at 9:53 AM on November 13, 2021 [7 favorites]


Ringo.
posted by signal at 10:28 AM on November 13, 2021 [6 favorites]


Ringo!
posted by chavenet at 10:39 AM on November 13, 2021 [3 favorites]


Team George here.
posted by thefool at 10:48 AM on November 13, 2021 [6 favorites]


I think that the ostensible John/Paul conflict/contest/pissing match/whatever comes from this conception that people have that, when you have two brilliant artists or collaborators in other fields who are very different people, and may have some interpersonal problems arising as a result of that, and may even make those interpersonal conflicts public (as John and Paul did in the early seventies, even writing songs to that effect), then you have to pick a side, because it's supposed to say something essential about you as a person; moreover, if the proponents of one of those sides happens to be more chronically loud about it, that then becomes the "right" side.

Thus, John did better lyrics because John did better everything; he was the prototypical Angry Young Man, even if he wasn't precisely that young, and he spent a lot of his considerable social capital on advocating for peace, and if that sometimes took the form of some risible stunts ("bed peace"? Dude, really?), well, at least he was trying, unlike that doe-eyed hack Macca with his silly love songs. (McCartney had his causes, too--he wrote a song titled "Give Ireland Back to the Irish"--but that gets glossed over in favor of Mr. Imagine There's No Heaven.) And, yes, even his murder gets framed as some sort of martyrdom, even though it was just another out-of-contro stan with a Catcher in the Rye fixation.

I'm not here to dump on John--I've got the greatest hits album--but it was a sort of relief that he's been decanonized sufficiently that people are no longer hand-waving away the abuse of his first wife, or admitting (during the social media thing criticizing Gal Gadot and her friends for covering "Imagine") that they didn't particularly care for the song. (I like it, but I don't consider it a personal anthem or secular hymn.) And Paul's OK, now, too, and that's also fine, and way overdue--the "you're either an X person or a Y person" people studiously ignore the fact that, during the last few years of John's life, the two men hung out together at the Dakota smoking weed, and almost called Lorne Michaels' bluff when he offered to give them a few thousand bucks to appear on SNL.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:48 AM on November 13, 2021 [10 favorites]


so George.

This is the true answer to who was the best solo Beatle.


A rebuttal
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:09 PM on November 13, 2021


Thanks for this post! and the links inside from Mefites. Paul McCartney is a mensch, and IMHO it's irrelevant who was the better songwriter. I love the Beatles and always will.

Paul McCartney's recent interview on Fresh Air.
I've posted this before but here's Paul McCartney on The Late Show.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2021 [3 favorites]


This is the true answer to who was the best solo Beatle.

A rebuttal yt


That was a cover song. The original is worth a listen.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:31 PM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


I read somewhere once that one reason the Beatles had such astonishing success as a band is that rather than having just one brilliant songwriter, they had three brilliant songwriters who each were at their absolute peak in different years -- Paul McCartney in 1966, John Lennon in 1968, and George Harrison in 1970.

Which seems like a vast oversimplification, but also not completely without merit.
posted by kyrademon at 1:19 PM on November 13, 2021 [10 favorites]


almost called Lorne Michaels' bluff when he offered to give them a few thousand bucks to appear on SNL.

An alternate universe I would like to have visited. Though I hope they would not have given Ringo less as Lorne suggested.
posted by lon_star at 2:59 PM on November 13, 2021 [2 favorites]


An alternate universe I would like to have visited.

Great news!
posted by nonasuch at 3:34 PM on November 13, 2021 [4 favorites]


This is the true answer to who was the best solo Beatle.

A rebuttal yt


Side note: the guy in the video is a young and thin Alexis Denisof, later Wesley of Buffy and Angel fame.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


Side note:

I knew I recognized that guy from somewhere. I thought it was this guy due to a tingling in the "Crap you watched in the '90s so you had a chance of getting laid" part of my brain. Thanks for the ID.

Paul McCartney in 1966, John Lennon in 1968, and George Harrison in 1970.

A tiny oversimplification in a good note. I may have put it a bit earlier, McCartney 1964-66 / Lennon 1967-69 / Harrison 1969-72. Yet you could go a couple years earlier or a couple years later on all of them and it would still be pretty accurate.

However, I am all about this mostly recent revival and delving into Harrison's music and musicianship. When I was a kid I used to troll my parents by saying that "George Harrison is the best Beatle, it's so obvious, why can't you see it?" so I won't deny feeling some degree of vindication.

George Harrison was the best Beatle.
posted by Sphinx at 5:06 PM on November 13, 2021 [3 favorites]


Paul McCartney in 1966, John Lennon in 1968, and George Harrison in 1970.

I've ventured before that the end of the band came during Abbey Road when Paul looked around at John (who had had nothing prepared but came up with "Come Together" and "Because"), George (long relegated to the one-track-per-album concession, but who contributed "Something" and "Here Comes the Sun") and Ringo (a nonentity as a songwriter but who still brought "Octopus' Garden" to the party), frankly assessed his own "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" and snippets like "Her Majesty" and realized that he, the guy who had written "Yesterday" and "Eleanor Rigby," was the fourth-best songwriter in the band.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:22 PM on November 13, 2021 [1 favorite]


Everything is wrong with that, you dumbo, you poltroon, you big, fat, bleeding hemorrhoid

the bass line's real good - yes, i get that it's a trite, annoying song, but the thing that i think a lot of people forget about the beatles is that both paul and ringo were world masters at bass and drums, while john and george were very good

paul is always worth your attention when he's got a bass in his hands
posted by pyramid termite at 5:49 PM on November 13, 2021 [6 favorites]


Paul plays from the gut, he provides the groove. So infectious, in fact, that one day he was noticed on the radio by a lad named John Lennon.
posted by credulous at 6:32 PM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


The other thing about the Beatles was the strength of their voices, as highly individual instruments. Paul's soft voice but, though soft, it was very on key and rounded by the way he projected. Johns voice was more tight and came from a harder set of pipes, and thinner, more angular face. Ringo's nasal situation and deeper voice and George's more articulated with his teeth as in intermediary. The Beatles, I somehow took in so wholeheartedly they are a sound edifice like a home I once knew. They made sublime art.
posted by Oyéah at 7:17 PM on November 13, 2021 [5 favorites]


I hate "Eleanor Rigby." The phrase "where do they all come from..." Well, the abandonment of the old by the young is transparent and obvious. What a waste of a nice melody.
posted by kozad at 8:05 PM on November 13, 2021


I wonder if Paul ever calls Ringo or vice versa.
posted by clavdivs at 8:30 PM on November 13, 2021


The phrase "where do they all come from..." Well, the abandonment of the old by the young is transparent and obvious.

I'm not a massive Beatles fan (as evidenced by my mis-attribution above of a song sung by George), and not to dispute that abandonment of the old by the young is a thing; but: none of the people in that song are specifically identified as old. Father McKenzie could be 25 for all we know, and exactly what Eleanor Rigby died of isn't mentioned - doesn't necessarily have to have been of old age.

Lonely people come from all ages and classes.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:16 PM on November 13, 2021 [6 favorites]


I hate "Eleanor Rigby." The phrase "where do they all come from..." Well, the abandonment of the old by the young is transparent and obvious.

While I don't begrudge anyone their personal tastes, you can certainly dislike or like anything you wish without a problem, I don't think that really captures the totality of the song, I say as someone who's griped about its reception myself. The song has a layered sense of irony about it, where the singer describes the lives of the "lonely people" he "looks at". "Where do they all come from?" is followed by "Where do they all belong?"

The questions read as something being asked by someone detached from life, as if observing it as in passing, not really a part of the lives of those around him. Asking "where do they all belong" from that vantage point answers the question as much as it frames it, by talking about the people as an abstraction that need some place to be put, on the one hand, while also offering a play on the word "belong" in the sense of togetherness, as in the feeling of belonging they might hope for.

The disaffected perspective of the singer reinforces the feeling of distance by holding the listener at bay from both the people described and the singer themself while the mawkish strings almost seem to mock the simplistic repetitiveness of the refrain by their redundancy giving the feeling the singer themself is not much better off than those being sung about.

The questions feel rhetorical, uninvested in those lives, as if above it all, but also as isolated for being so, all of which then creates a multi-layered sense of distancing, the singer from those he sings about, as he knows the details of their lives but can't connect them to where or why or himself, while the listener is taken by the suggestive but incomplete details of these described lives putting them at odds with the detached judging perspective of the singer by want for answers and empathy with the characters. (The references to church too can hint that the singer's knowledge of these lives, but lack of deep concern may carry a quasi-religious significance about the worldview.)

The overall feeling of the song then, for people who respond to it, provides a multi-layered sense of "loneliness" or distance, as that feeling is deeply common and deeply felt, but by its nature isn't felt in common as it is one of isolation. The song replicates that feeling, but allows it to be understood as a kind of commonality, a theme the the arts often turn to, but it does it so well because it both captures and withholds a sense of resolution to the isolation, leaving the listener in it and above it at the simultaneously, judging and judged, both at the same time.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:39 PM on November 13, 2021 [4 favorites]


This is the true answer to who was the best solo Beatle. All Things Must Pass is a masterwork. I don't know how they ended up with THREE geniuses in one band, or how George managed to stay sane for so long while his writing was mostly sidelined.

Counterpoint: his output was limited when he was in the Beatles, he made a very good double album (I know) of his Beatles backlog with some great songs, then sprinkled a scattering of good-to-great songs over a series of mediocre albums, with one of his biggest solo hits being a cover.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:55 PM on November 13, 2021 [3 favorites]


Sphinx: McCartney 1964-66 / Lennon 1967-69

Based on which songs they take the lead vocals on, it's the reverse. A Hard Day's Night and Beatles for Sale are practically John Lennon solo albums. From what I've gathered, he was the dominant songwriter in the early years of the Beatles. McCartney doesn't really start to come into his own until Help! in 1965, and for the next couple of years afterwards they're providing about equal amounts of material, but by the time of Let It Be and Abbey Road, McCartney is as dominant as Lennon was in his pomp.
posted by Kattullus at 11:25 PM on November 13, 2021


John, apparently, was cursed with self-doubt, self-destruction and labored over his song-writing, and then he was killed. I wish we could have seen what kind of person he would have turned into.

Given the number of people we (well, I should probably go with I, but I feel safe assuming we) have gone from idolized artist to frothing reactionary, I honestly don’t have positive thoughts about the person Lennon might have become. There’s enough about who he was when he was alive that, honestly, I think we’re lucky that we didn’t see him grow old and angry. We’ve already got John Cleese (and all the rest), not sure I’d want to see old Lennon talking about chemtrails and vaccine conspiracy.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:08 AM on November 14, 2021 [3 favorites]


Larry Kirwan's Liverpool Fantasy is about John Lennon as a bitter old failure in 1986 (after the Beatles broke up in 1962), when he runs into his old bandmate, the cheesy Las Vegas crooner "Paul Montana."
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:28 AM on November 14, 2021 [2 favorites]


I think we’re lucky that we didn’t see him grow old and angry. We’ve already got John Cleese (and all the rest), not sure I’d want to see old Lennon talking about chemtrails and vaccine conspiracy.

I would expect Yoko Ono to be a better predictor of what Lennon would have been than John Cleese.
posted by FencingGal at 5:44 AM on November 14, 2021 [2 favorites]


Of the Beatles' songs, I've always preferred Paul's, particularly Fool on the Hill and The Long & Winding Road, which still hit me in the feels every time. I was never really a fan of Wings, because at the time they were most popular, I was in my early teens and their music wasn't what I was interested in - it was all Donny Osmond, Jackson 5 and other pop. That might sound like a paradox, given that I was just a child when the Beatles were together, but their music is timeless, whereas much of Wings' music is very dated to me. I also cannot forgive Mull of Kintyre, that fucking Frog Chorus, or Ebony & Ivory.

Anecdote: A few years ago I met Ringo and his wife at an event. I was with a friend who's about a dozen years younger than I (so she was born after the Beatles split). We had a brief, pleasant chat with Ringo and Barbara, then as everyone was mingling, we all moved on. As Ringo walked away, my star-struck friend grabbed my arm and said "You know who that is, don't you? He used to do the voice for Thomas the Tank Engine!"
posted by essexjan at 6:19 AM on November 14, 2021 [12 favorites]


it's rare these days, but a choice post-beatles experience is an end-to-end listen of Shaved Fish. a compilation, but has a surprising cohesiveness in track order, a powerful narrative arc.

these are outstanding. i saw the abbey road lecture live in denver a ways back. scott is a super friendly and nice dude; hung out in the lounge with me and my daughter during intermission. (terrible website on mobile, fyi - but don't let that distract you).

mccartney/lennon/harrison. imagine anything like that harmony being produced without autotune in these times.

mccartney: nothing bad to say. what a voice, what genius melodies, an underated monster bass player, relentless tour hound, in the act of creation his whole life.
posted by j_curiouser at 7:29 AM on November 14, 2021 [4 favorites]


"He was always coy about his bass playing though." (Paraphrasing John.)
posted by aquanaut at 7:39 AM on November 14, 2021


I'm not here to defend The Frog Chorus any more than the rest of you, but I do like Sarah Millican's wedding anecdote about it.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:13 AM on November 14, 2021 [1 favorite]


For me, this is one of the most enjoyable and interesting pieces of writing I've encountered on McCartney. I love how personal it is because, for me, I have lived my whole life in a relationship with their music and legacy. Anyway:

https://ianleslie.substack.com/p/64-reasons-to-celebrate-paul-mccartney
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 1:37 PM on November 14, 2021 [5 favorites]


When the Beatles broke up George was 26, Paul was 27, John was 28, and Ringo was 29.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:59 PM on November 14, 2021 [8 favorites]


> I don't know how they ended up with THREE geniuses in one band

Well, they didn't start out that good; they each brought each other on, and none of them would have developed in the way they did without the drive from the others. Lennon and McCartney's co-operative/competitive songwriting being the obvious example.
posted by vincebowdren at 3:40 AM on November 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


Can we agree Ron Nasty was the greatest Rutle?
posted by mazola at 12:00 PM on November 15, 2021 [2 favorites]


Just mentioning Peter Serafinowicz' A Full Day In The Life - Extended Version: "[Serafinowicz] said he had always enjoyed the bit that Paul McCartney sings at around 2:15 in the song, and he imagined what had happened in the rest of the day of that character." (source)
posted by Dez at 12:41 PM on November 15, 2021 [3 favorites]


> I don't know how they ended up with THREE geniuses in one band

Counterpoint: ... nah, I got nothing, I was just feeling sorry for Ringo.
posted by nickzoic at 4:31 AM on November 16, 2021


ringo is a genius - i thought it was a great shame that he never tried drumming for another band after the beatles, because he is one of the greats - he's not fancy or a show off, but he always seems to find a right, unique part for the song
posted by pyramid termite at 6:05 PM on November 16, 2021 [5 favorites]


I completely dislike the Beatles. Go ahead, gasp. I was born in 1953 so I was totally in the age group to be swooning but... nope. I was a pianist, played acoustic guitar, was in a band in my teens (folk). I dated a guy some years ago who was a Beatles fanatic and he smothered me with Beatles music played every which way. I left. Not a convert.

There is one Beatles song that I do like, nobody ever plays it, a dreamy little melody maybe written by McCartney? "Julia."
Short, sweet tune.
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 10:33 PM on November 16, 2021


“Julia” is a brilliant song, one of my favorites. It’s a solo song by John, and the lyrics are psychologically quite complex. It’s about his mother, but also Yoko (the kanji used to write her name are “ocean” and “child”), and he seems to be melding the two together, but also seemingly contrasting them. And the melody is ”almost agonizingly exquisite”, in the words of Alan W. Pollack.
posted by Kattullus at 2:27 AM on November 17, 2021 [1 favorite]


I've always genuinely thought that The Frog Chorus had a beautiful melody and don't really understand why it's quite that hated. If I ever needed to learn a McCartney song, that would probably be it. (If I were challenged to learn a Beatles song, it would be Good Night, if only because no one else would be likely to). McCartney is one of the greatest tune-writers of the 20th century, which is why the focus on the lyrics surprises me a bit. Anyway, people who complain about McCartney's MORishness should be forced to listen to Some Time In New York City on repeat for a bit.
posted by Grangousier at 6:00 AM on November 17, 2021 [3 favorites]


McCartney is one of the greatest tune-writers of the 20th century, which is why the focus on the lyrics surprises me a bit

Speaking as an occasional CD reviewer, I've always found it's far easier to write about lyrics than it is to write about music.

That's partly because words and music are two such radically different means of expression - the old "dancing about architecture" problem - and partly because so few of us have a grasp of music's technical vocabulary. Even a writer who's fluent in that vocabulary (which I'm not), will be wary of deploying it in anything aimed at a general audience for fear they won't understand half the terms used.

Writing about lyrics is so much easier because your subject matter and the means you use to convey your thoughts are fully compatible. Dancing about dancing, if you like.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:43 AM on November 17, 2021 [2 favorites]


There’s a lovely video on the Guardian website where journalist John Harris goes and visits locations from the Let It Be and Get Back films, intercut with footage from 1969.
posted by Kattullus at 2:12 AM on November 18, 2021


The Beatles were a staple of my childhood and even cover bands keep their memory alive. I second that about the video on the guardian website. It's a cracker.
posted by richarddaniels at 5:54 AM on November 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


Katallus thank you for your comment on "Julia" and especially the link. I had not considered how much the soft, acoustic nature of the song influenced me. (Also correction on the composer and background on the song/context).
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 9:03 AM on November 19, 2021 [1 favorite]


If you like Pollack’s analysis of “Julia”, you’ll probably like the rest of the series. He’s a very engaging writer.
posted by Kattullus at 9:29 AM on November 19, 2021


I read this thread while watching Get Back last week, and was going to comment on this, and didn't, but now feel compelled to...

frankly assessed his own "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" and snippets like "Her Majesty" and realized that he, the guy who had written "Yesterday" and "Eleanor Rigby," was the fourth-best songwriter in the band.

I've always loved all of Paul's Abbey Road songs. "Oh! Darling" was great. He oversaw the Medley, and his half of it was sublime (as was John's). The guy who wrote "and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make" isn't the fourth-best anything.

Why we have to choose, though, I have no idea. They were all amazing.

Plus he wrote "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" in late 1968, and came up with "Get Back", "Let it Be" and "The Long and Winding Road" after it. I really don't think he was sitting around feeling jealous of "Octopus's Garden" at the time the band split. (Which, I hasten to add, is also excellent.)
posted by rory at 9:23 AM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]


A man who writes songs like the rest of us use Kleenex is going to come up with some clunkers. It’s the law of averages.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:26 AM on December 7, 2021


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